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Mexican president says some Latam countries are losing the democracy battle

Monday, September 10th 2012 - 05:33 UTC
Full article 58 comments

Democracy is in retreat in some Latinamerican countries warned the Mexican president Felipe Calderon in the Russian city of Vladivostok where he attended the APEC summit forum, (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation). Read full article

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  • LEPRecon

    Hmm, I wonder which countries he means? JAJAJAJA!

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 06:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Boovis

    Everyone knows that Ecuador, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia and Argentina are corrupt backward tinpot banana republics. The sooner they drag their crippled backsides into the present, the better.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 06:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    1 LEPRecon

    I think what he's saying is “I know that we don't point fingers, but if we did then we would be pointing them at Argentina”

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 07:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Frank

    I don't think Argentina qualifies for 'banana' status.... its just a backward tinpot republic........

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    He is pointing his finger at the move from the right wing of his own administration and the shift of the new president.He fears that Mexico will face toward south America and less towards the north.
    The trend is towards a unity of Latin America,with or without Mexico but Calderon recognises that the voters of Mexico are in favour of that unity.If he had support in Mexico he would shake a fist.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Frank do not blame argentina......it's a cultural thing.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 12:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    His definitionof democracy doesn't allow people to change the economic policies away from neoliberalism, or to have a deeper engagement in society than voting at elections. Of course if you define “democracy” in this way you can then make it sound like a threat of dictatorship when what your actually desribing is the region getting more democatic...

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • jerry

    Not for Argentina. The average person thinks that all there is to democracy is voting (or not voting) at elections. Under the K government they havn´t a clue as to real democracy is all about.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • porteño55

    I think he is right. We in Argentina are suffering a degradation of democracy by the hands of Kirchnerism. To be honest, we as citizens forget the value of institutions when it suits us (speaking in general), and we realize our mistakes when it's too late. Well, we have been only thirty years back into democracy so it has yet to be improved. Instead, we are going backwards. Mexico has been a one-party country for decades, so they have to learn, too. And Russia (in the Apec group and Calderón's host) can't be called democratic if it locks up a rock group for criticizing him. We haven't reached that point yet.
    Anyway, some of you guys would do well in shaking off all your hatred towards Argentina. If this is Mercopress and not Anti-Mercopress, democracy is also about dialogue and mutual respect. If the idea is only to talk against us and not talk to us, you might as well do it in your club. Cheers!

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    argentina does not understand that in a democracy there are checks and balances and institutions that go along with democracy to insure that one institution is not more powerful than the other.
    While modern democracy is a mere two hundred of so years old, argentina should have learned something.
    However I find it very interesting that a few have stated in Mercos posts that cuba is democratic because they distribute resources to all the people equally. Of course, most educated people know that democracy and resources have noting to do with one another.
    Democracy is political voice, political opinion and freedon of political speech and all the insitutions to insure the continuity of those concepts.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • porteño55

    Captain Poppy,
    Yes, when I talked about the institutions I was precisely talking about checks and balances. I agree with your concepts. I don't think all Argentina thinks like you say, but certainly many or Cristina Kirchner wouldn't have been reelected. I think a country is not a unity, we don't all think alike (although Cristina would like us to :-) ). I say that because you personalize Argentina as it were a block, it's a simplification.
    I don't think that Cuba is democratic at all. However I think equal opportunities are important in a democracy. What political opinion can a person have if he doesn't get an education, for instance? That doesn't mean to distribute all equally, that's impossible. Argentina has both an incomplete Democracy and a very bad distribution of resources. Anyway, it would be great for some of you to visit and, either prove your current impression, or realize that it's a beautiful country with many values despite its defects, for some reason many foreigners including Europeans and Americans come here for tourism, study or just to live.
    Sorry, in my last post I wrote “criticizing him” and I meant “Critizing Putin”. Regards.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    I have spent a lot of time in Argentina over the last five years. I lived in BsAs for many months and have travelled the length and breadth. I don't think negatively about Argentines but I do despise the government of CFKC and her blatant theft of money and manipulation of the needy. (And a few idiot posters on this site that do not reflect well on Argentina).

    Cuba is not in any way a democracy. You are right that equal OPPORTUNITY is a corner stone of a developed country. What Cuba did was bring everyone down to the lowest level, remove all merit and ambition, and condemn everyone to a basic level of survival. (I have visited Cuba).

    Cristina gives the worst kind of hope, false hope. She doesn't want people to get out of poverty as they make up a large core of her voters. She buys their loyalty and keeps them dependent on her charity. She doesn't want people to be educated to a good standard, or to travel, or do do well because they would question her and demand a better government.

    I have great affection for my friends in Argentina and hope they get a better future.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Idlehands

    Captian Poppy - I think you want the word “ensure” rather than “insure”

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    @ porteño55
    The majority of posters are not against Argentina and the Argentinian people as such, but cannot understand why there is such a blind faith in what your ruling party do.

    You have a country that is enviable with such rich resources that you are not taking advantage off, but so much effort by your leaders is being spent on trying to take the few resources that the Falkland Islanders have by comparison.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    5
    Yuleno
    Interesting point. I hadn’t seen it from that angle.

    9
    Porteño
    Very well said, I fully agree with you. It is good to see an Argentine with a balanced and critical view of their country post on here. Some of the Argies who post here (who generally don’t live in Argentina) are as tiresome as the Argie-haters, with their blind support for all things Argentine.

    From the right side of the Cordillera de los Andes, saludos.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @9 Have you not read posts from your compatriots? How often have you seen comments from them on the level of “it may be that you're right and we're wrong.” How about “our belligerency toward 3,140 people that live on some Islands that don't belong to us, and never will, IS unacceptable.” When you, as a country, can do that, you might get some respect. Until that day, probably several centuries from now, you are just a joke. Or perhaps like a mad dog. Most likely a combination. A mad dog that has to be watched constantly to ensure that it doesn't break free, and ready to shoot it dead. But a joke for running around the world trying to get as many people as possible to “say” that they believe your lies, for failing miserably to operate an economy properly. Or democracy.
    @11 So, come on, let's hear it. “The Falkland Islands are NOT part of Argentina. The Falkland Islanders are free to have whatever systems THEY choose in THEIR country. The actions Argentina are taking against the Islanders are wrong, immoral and illegal. I take every opportunity to persuade everyone I meet to see things the same way.” This is why there are so many non-latinos on here. We want argies to know what we think of your attitudes. we want you to know what we think of your lies. We want you to know that the Falkland Islands will NEVER be yours. We want you to hear us laugh at how far your aspirations are beyond your abilities. We want you to know how committed we are to doing ANYTHING necessary to keep Argentina off of and out of the Falkland Islands. And the same applies to South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. Back off, recognise that these places are legally ours and will remain so, be a “good” neighbour, stay away. Give those things and you can go to hell in whatever way you choose. Continue as you are and we'll help you get to hell!

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GeoffWard2

    Calderon has his personal valedictory warning for his Mexican people.
    But democracy is not owned by the Left
    But democracy is not owned by the Right

    It's just that the principle of being answerable to the people is being undermined.
    The word 'democracy' is being hijacked and debased by 'leaders' of countries - and here the nations of South America are no better than The Congo and other functionally totalitarian nations that title their country 'The Democratic Republic of ...'.

    We should get used to 'calling a spade a spade', using the phrase 'Democratic Dictatorship' when this better describes the situation.
    Better ... ''Democratic' Dictatorship'.

    An equally exercising state for South American nations is the massing of the many parties of the Left (usually), to create a bought-vote coalition of perpetual power.
    This is just another form of 'Democratic' Dictatorship.

    And I think Think agrees with me.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    Well said @ Geoff.

    A government afraid of its citizens is a democracy. Citizens afraid of government is tyranny.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    #11 I am not against argentina in the least. In fact I enjoy my visits there, my wife is or was a portena. It is peronism and socialism that disturbs me. I know that more Argentine's, especially the older ones are saddened but the way the country has turned out under the kirchner's. When I refer to “the ” argentine's, I typically mean the troll's that mindlessly post on this site. They blindedly agree with whatever the government does. I think they are afraid to criticise or admit mistakes were made.
    I go to Argentina once or twice a year to visit in laws. They are many things I enjoy about Argentina, the government is not one of them.
    #13 you are correct
    Kudos Geoff

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pugol-H

    @9 porteño55
    Good point, well put.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • SuzanneARG

    @ 9
    Hey...another british posting as an argentine “porteno” jejeje

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Deal with the fact Argentines hate her.
    Trolls have failed to digress and divert attention: Sept 13....the big protest
    70% of Argentines Disapprove of Populist Leader's Economic Policies
    BUENOS AIRES, Aug. 29, 2012 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- President Cristina Kirchner's popularity has fallen dramatically amid worries of high inflation according to Argentine polling company Management & Fit. Just 30% of Argentinians approve of her handling of the economy, an approval rating that has continued to drop over the last year.
    According to reports, growing public discontent is largely a result of economic contraction and soaring inflation, which has eroded purchasing power. The nation's statistics agency, INDEC, reported an annual inflation rate of 9.9% in July, but private analysts estimate it is running well above 20%. The Kirchner Administration bans the publication of independent economic data that conflicts with the Government's reports and formally suspended three consumer-focused NGOs this week after they published inflation data that differed from official statistics.

    “Argentina's runaway inflation – now among the highest in the world – reflects the degree and depth of the Kirchner Administration's economic mismanagement. The Argentine people are still suffering from President Kirchner's mismanagement of the debt default and restructuring. The failure to repay the country's debt to private creditors has left the government effectively locked out of the international credit market and has discouraged foreign investment. Price subsidies and strict currency controls have added to the country's macro-economic problems.”

    ”It is no surprise that the President's popularity wanes as Argentina's real inflation statistics become known. These poll results illustrate that the majority of Argentines do not support the government's protectionist and isolationist economic agenda. In

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    Well, I saw his entire conference, when he was asked about democracy in Latam and this was his answer,I took it to mean he was saying that left or right economic policies dont necesary mean automatic democracy or dictatorship, the relationship between citizens, goverments and institutions are the ones that make that difference and ppl never should think that they have a democracy just because they are told so, with either left, right, or center policies. genuine democracy is something that has to be exercised and searched for continualy and changing or making reforms acording with the needs and equilibrium necesary between citizens and goverment.

    5 Yuleno

    I think its unfair to paint Calderon as just a “conservative” that didn´t want anything to do with Latam, especially considering he did make great efforts to develop and make more deep ties between Mexico and Latam, either by CELAC(born in Cancun), Pacific Alliance or Mexico association with Mercosur. Also lets remember that “conservative” means different things from one country to another,depending on the historic context of those. Is true that PRI traditionaly had an especific foreing policy for Latam, but I think that what Calderon did was a litle more interesting, in that Mexico is more involved politicaly and economicaly with some countries in Latam and that is both welcome and necesary IMO.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ElaineB

    ..........

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    I think he should try and look at his country first with all the corruption and mafias slowly taking over the government.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • 2012

    @22 Conqueror Captain Poppy
    Mind your own country the UK
    You are british and not welcome in Argentina.
    Shut up, stupid wimp!

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    25
    He is, he was just asked to give an oppinion, or do you mean he is not allowed to have one :)

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    Elena I think,also,that Calderon didn't have to go to Russia to aim critical remarks at Mexico's neighbours.He could have done that before the election of Peña Nieto,couldnt he?
    His remarks come from a political position and democracy was at its lowest in latam when the right wing were 'installed' by the north.Argentina is hardly the isolationist country being portrayed here.It is pro-south American and together south America can progress far better than as lackeys of the USA.This is a country,the USA,that spy's on it's own people,interferes in other countries and wants to construct political structures in other countries that suit the USA,rather than the people of the country.
    Incidentally Poppy,your good wife is portena and always will be.You can't not be portena just because your husband doesn't 'like' portenos.:)

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • briton

    Once again the losers breed insults,
    Bow to jealousy and shine with envy,

    If only the losers were as great as the brits,

    Instead of humiliating themselves as losers lol.
    .

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Yuleno you stun me.....now where have I EVER said I do not like Portenos. It's socialism and communism I have a disdain for.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Viva Argentina

    @31 Conqueror Captain Poppy @ 30 Briton british rubbish bloddy whimps
    Mind you own country the UK ....

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    28 Yuleno
    Calderon was in Russia for APEC along with Chile and Peru presidents and he was asked a question after a conference, and I dont think he was refering to Argentina in particular, even if this news site certainly is implying that. If you are interested this interview http://mediosypoliticaenmexico.blogspot.mx/2012/09/entrevista-exclusiva-de-rt-con-felipe.html#!/2012/09/entrevista-exclusiva-de-rt-con-felipe.html could give you a better idea of where he is coming from.

    I know about the series of dictatorships imposed on Latam by US during the cold war and that they were Right leaning, but we as ppl lived under a dictatorship regimen that used both LEFT and RIGHT type of policies economic and political, PRI wasn´t called a “perfect dictatorship” just for sport even if we think Llosa was just making himself seem interesting by saying that.

    Now, me and many mexicans thing that a dictatorship is not so closely linked or inherent to being of the left or Right political espectrum but because of the imposition of goverment itself ON the ppl, not matter its political and economic ideology, and history itself has had dictatorships from both political spectrums. A country may at some time find itself in the need to implement left or right social and economic policies and that doesn´t make them automaticaly a dictatorship or a democracy.

    I personally think that ,when it comes at economy, countries and the world would benefice by a change of the economic paradigm given the serious economic crisis that world is being sujected, and also because of the weakeing of the states and the enourmus strengt of private transnationals and banks. I am of the mind economy should serve the well management of the house or country, not the ppl being subjects of the economy, and sadly, I have seen shades of the last thing in both left and right economic policies.

    Sep 10th, 2012 - 11:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • mastershakejb

    @ 2 Boovis
    Ecuador's actually a fairly pleasant country. Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Argentina are definitely the dregs though. And I haven't yet seen Cuba personally, but it's definitely not lookin so good these days in videos.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 02:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    Elena,the interview reveals Calderon's view on issues raised by the interviewer.What is clear is that he believes Mexico's economy is dependant on the north.This desire to work closely with them is not just on drugs for Calderon, but on other areas of trade.What he doesn't address sufficiently is his aspirations on social issues.For him resources trickle down and that what the USA likes.Wealth trickling to them with the exploitation of labor.That is why Peña Nieto is the next president.Calderon faces North when latam unity is a more independant project.
    Poppy.if you haven't said anything about porteño's can portena's be anti-socialist etc or why would you think(not know) your wife would want to deny her origins.You make yourself sound sexist at least.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Viva Rio Gallegos

    @capitain potty seat
    that's right drip, drip, drip
    You laugh at my story, but its not funny.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • briton

    Apparently some desperate Argies are upset that they cannot be as great as the brits,

    But their goddess insist in keeping them tightly tucked up in the brown stuff,

    It don’t smell very nice,
    But apparently its very warm and cosy .lol.
    .
    still,,
    its the thought that counts ?? .

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Viva Rio Gallegos

    @briton generic bloody rubbish brit
    I miss you when you went on holiday ...///... but I am glad that you miss some of my posts when I told about my problems. I forgot to take my meds some days and now Cpitain Poopy laughs at me becasue he is not a real man.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Terminal A was evacuated last night and filghts were delayed and not one report anywhere on it in the RG news. Talk about hiding information!

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • 2012

    @36 briton british wimp
    so you blamed SussieUS, ah?
    “great brit” ....ah?
    Hey hey hey.... you are dead like the rest of the UK tream
    Conqueror/Captain Poppy/Isolde/Yensere-ly Skare
    Zhivago/Craig R/ Conor Louden-Brown and the rest of the british crap!

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • briton

    Mexican president says some Latam bloggers are losing the democracy battle

    well done .

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 06:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pugol-H

    Foaming at the mouth now, more inane blithering to follow shortly.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • briton

    rabies or whipped cream..

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pugol-H

    She’s probably been drinking the furniture polish again.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conor

    @39
    You do realise that isn't my real name right? Its very easy Miss Sussie to grab a name I once read in a newspaper years ago. I mean why would I give you so much as an inch in life? You may call me Conor J, see if you can work out what the J stands for. Or are you too stoned?

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 10:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Viva Rio Gallegos

    Conor Louden-Brown / briton / Pogal-Z and rest of UK tream:
    You not real men you keep moking me about my past.

    REAL MEN PLEASE STAND UP

    I am a proud Argentinean woman and I will be here for 4 more years.
    I am not drinking furniture polish, I do not do that stuff. I forgot to take my meds sometimes and start to talking about my past in Rio Gallegos, before they sent me to live in USA to work tricks.

    This trauma cause multiple personalities and it is not fun to have. I have to take my meds everyday...///...and you wimps laugh at me... YOU ARE SADDER THAN ME.

    Mi rossie @rse miss mi peruvian papi.
    Drip, drip, drip.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conor J

    @45
    If you don't like any of us “UK team” then find another site to complain about life on.

    Sep 11th, 2012 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    34 Yuleno

    Well, I didn´t see it that way, especially with his initiative “more mexico in the world, more world in mexico”, this program was made especifically to develop and make more diverse Mexico´s exports, and even if we had problems of trade with Brazil and Argentina there has been initiatives to keep trade with other countries of the region, like Uruguay, Central America, Colombia, Peru and Chile.

    IN social programs I think he did well enough, maybe not exellent given the costrains of time and resources, but near universal healthcare coverage, development for basic and superior education, help for families at vulnerable zones, ecologic oriented strategies at cities and bussines to deal with global warming,etc. those aren´t social initiatives to sneeze at IMO, credit should be given when its due.

    EPN is in a way following Calderon´s foreing policy in the region, but he is adding his own initiative, like the reunion with central america leaders, I wish he does well in this because we as neighbours definitely need to work more strategically. IMO Its just that PRI is traditionaly more recognized for their history with the region than the PAN, and it was well earned really, they did a good job in the past. My personal favourite foreing policy of a PRI president was that of Lazaro Cardenas.

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 01:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • 2012

    @46

    I did not write @45....
    this is not the first time someone used my name to post..
    ...but I don't care..
    this web page is nothing more than a Port-A-John

    Think, I don't have nothing to loose. I hate the rubbish bloody british people and this web site gives me an opportunity to dump my crap on the brits...
    hear the noise brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrppppppppuuuuuuppppppp
    that stinky fart is for all the rubbish bloody english people!

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 01:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    Well elena it seems we don't agree on this.But I think you support the view that wealth comes first and social issues after.I think that social issues can be addressed without needing to create maximum wealth.Money cannot buy feeling and solidarity between any group but it can create its appearance when in fact it's hunting the phantom of money.

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 10:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    49 Yuleno

    wow, way to pre-jugde someone just because of their oppinions, so now I am a unashamed capitalist? this is the first time in my life I am accused of such thing XD

    Of course I dont believe wealth comes before social issues and solidarity for heaven´s sake, I believe that in order to addres social issues, especially in our region where there´s so many ppl unable to get basic services every human being should be entitled to, is necesary to create programs and strategies for a better distribution of the wealth, also there´s a need to develop services for all ppl to enjoy so they are in a position of developing their own legacy to pass on to their children, and for that you need to have created a level of wealth or at least manage the wealth you have in a sustentable manner.

    Is not about ppl becoming just consumers, is about making even the space in which ppl can develop as persons with their basic needs covered. This sentiment is shared for the majority of mexicans, because we know that is a fight that has do to with social justice, in our history this has been always been part of our ppl worries.

    I would do bad to just tell ppl in need of medical services, “well I dont have medicines for you but have a nice day and a hug”, precisely because of solidarity of course I , the ppl or the goverment even,will have to look for a way to cover ppl medical needs so they get better,

    We know good intentions and Solidarity need to be together with a good distribution of wealth, if not, then we can only offer words of consuel, and we are very autocritic about it, we know we have to change the actual system.

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    I'm sorry if I have mis-judged you,but I did say I think you put wealth first.
    But.
    If I studied language closely I would have to ask you-
    1/what did we all do before the world was a global economy.
    2/why do we still endure the deprivation of the ability to provide for ourselves.
    3/who are the we you refer to and who are the ppl you mention,and were do you belong in these two categories.
    While I understand that one president is broadly like another in most countries I would hope that facilitating the involvement of all the people would be a priority rather than a bureaucracy ministering wealth according to more to the wealthier and less to the needy

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    When did I talk about bureacracy? I consider myself part of the ppl and I used we as we mexicans, you study language?, good for you I guess. I will make sure to be more especific next time.

    About involvement of people, I completely agree, a great deal of the ecologic strategies applied today took their model from comunities inside municipalities that designed them with just the help of neghbours, there has been even an initiative to get back traditional indigenous techniques that improve productivity in camps without having to resort to hurting the envioronment.

    And this wealthy-needy discourse/narrative has been soo used and exploited by both Left and Right goverments in our country that we symply stopped believing either one of them.

    The left let at its extreme negative can still keep inequality and gave goverment complete control of money, resources, etc. The Right at its extreme gives control to transnationals and banks reducing even the middle class (this has been happening lately in even US and Canada). That is precisely why I think a change of the traditional paradigm LEFT-RIGHT is in order.

    Sorry you dont like globalization, I wasn´t defending it really, but I do think it would be innocent for us to assume that just by ideologicaly being agaist it will resolve things or protect you from it, to deal with any problem you have to know it well first and then, desing what form of defense you can have, as a family, as a society and as a country. Put yourself agaist others that dont think like you or puting a protective buble around will not help much in the long run IMO.

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    Elena it is interesting to read your posts.I find what you write refreshing.I need to explain two things-firstly I did not say I studied language and secondly I did not say you mentioned bureaucracy.
    I was questioning who ppl were in your post.If ppl had been'we' I would have been asking a different question.
    The notion of the middle,between left and right, is were social democracy was situated isn't it?

    Sep 12th, 2012 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    ok, I missed that :)

    Yes, social democracy, even if it´s hard to see now for obvious reasons, PAN was social democracy oriented before getting the presidency, I know this for a fact because of where I live and their different take from PRI was resfreshing for the time. Now that they lost it and so many states some of them have been talking about getting back to their roots and I would really like to see that.

    This dichothomy Left-Right I think does more hurt than good, just like in the cold war days but at an economic level, from my experience, it can get ppl at irreconciliable levels of conflic whithout reason and even need because at the end they are trying to acomplish similar things with different means, so why not take what is positive from each sans the burden of ideology that comes with it? As an Uruguayan poet said:“ during XX century there was a divorce of freedom and justice but both of them like to live together” and the people want that too.

    Sep 13th, 2012 - 01:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Yuleno

    Like the quote Elena and have enjoyed the subjects.I will look out for you another time:)

    Sep 13th, 2012 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    glad you liked it, see you too :)

    Sep 13th, 2012 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    #54 Good quote =)

    Sep 14th, 2012 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Elena

    #57 Thanks :D

    Sep 14th, 2012 - 04:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0

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