MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina and ‘holdout hedge funds’ prepare for the final clash this week
The long-awaited showdown in a US appeals court this week pits Argentina against a group of investors who refused to swap their debt after the country's historic 2002 default. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesthieving monkeys!
Feb 25th, 2013 - 07:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0As a Westerner, I don't support this action by these funds. Whilst it maybe legal their operating in the gray area is questionable in its morality.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 07:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's wrong that a fund can put a country on the edge of bankruptcy. Even if Argentina successfully defend the case, much damage has been done to Argentina by these funds in not just Argentina's credit rating but also in investor confidence.
Now I think most would say the Argentinian train crash which is their finances would inevitably catch up with them in one form or another and Argentina probably deserves some punishment for its clear abuse of international financial support.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out, although whatever the result this has been very damaging for Argentina especially when your president can't even use her own jet due to worries it will get impounded in whatever country is lands in.
Usurer asking for their pound of flesh could have been a play by Shakespeare.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Another nail in Argentinas coffin. Day by day becoming the worlds number one pariah nation...
Feb 25th, 2013 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0@2 Yes, the laws should be changed. No one wants to push a country into bankruptcy - despite Argentina crying 'victim' - it is the people that suffer, not the corrupt politicians that cause the mess.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 11:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think CFK is misreading the IMF slow measures as a sign of weakness rather than compassion for Argentines. She is out of control. Even Argentines call her arrogant and crazy. If she showed a modicum of responsibility and had negotiated, Argentina would not been in this dire position.
@5 I would agree, it's like watching two dirty farmers fighting with sh!tty shovels.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 11:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0However, I did read an interview with the usurious owners of Wonga.com saying that they wanted their 40'000% pay-day loans to be really popular (presumably amongst the easily persuadable poor) and for their company to be bigger than apple.
I guess when British society breaks as a result of their grandiose vision of socially-acceptable debt-hell, they'll also move to Tel Aviv like Trimmerman and Mr Singer.
@2 I don't follow your reasoning. Particularly the bit about “morality”. Who decided to put themselves forward to govern argieland? Who decided to vote them into power? When argieland defaulted, did it “negotiate” an acceptable settlement plan or did it issue an ultimatum? Have argieland's actions demonstrated a wish to deal honestly and fairly with all its creditors? Or an attempt to pay as few people as little as possible?And, while you're at it, just how many judgements are there AGAINST argieland with which it refuses to comply?
Feb 25th, 2013 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I suggest you need to consider reality. If YOU live beyond your means, amass huge debts and can find no honest way of paying them off, you get made bankrupt. Are you suggesting that you should just be able to get away with it? That all the people who trusted you should just go whistle for their money? Is that your idea of morality?
@5 Elaine
Feb 25th, 2013 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'd agree, but with qualifications. No-one wants to push a country that can't pay into bankrupcy. However what else is there that can be done about a country that can afford to pay it's debts, but won't pay?
I think that the US government's position on this is prescient.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They are a pariah state & should be treated with the same gusto as Ahmadinejad in Iran & Mugabe in Zimbabwe the only way to make them behave is sanctions. They are habitual defaulters & should be ostracised from international trade until they use their not inconsiderable reserves (If CFK is telling the truth) to pay their debts. Its not cant with Argentina, like everything with CFK it is wont!
Feb 25th, 2013 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina could have dealt with the situation like Urguay did. They paid everyone out, albeit it after a delay, but they got their money. The difference is of course is that Uruguay are a responsible country and it was AR that got them into the problem in the first place by not paying their dues.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 02:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, I do not agree that genuine holders, many of them pensioners, who refused to accept the derisory payout when the banks did (and just guess who paid for that) should be abused by the likes of TMBOA: a thief of the highest order.
TMBOA says they have the money but won't pay. Does anybody really believe that because I most certainly do not?
@6 The UK government is making noises about regulating the pay-day loan market. Not soon or quick enough. They prey on the poor knowing the poor only think immediately rather than long term; generally because they have no choice.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@8 I don't think it can be retrospective laws. Yes, CFK never refer to the people - many were Italian pensioners - stiffed when she decided to not to pay.
@11 She doesn't have the money. She lies like a sociopath.
The mythical U$ 42B they claim to have in reserves is mostly smoke. I would bet they have less than U$10B in actual cash they can spend.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It looks like the harvest is going to be slightly better than last year but not nearly as much as they were counting on in an election year.
The provinces are broke, the price controls are already failing, business said they can't afford raises this year, it has taken a decade but it looks like the Ks have finally run out of other people's money and options.
Mr market wants teh pseo above 8, bags of U$ to try to keep it under will only work for so long.
Where will it end?
Buy sugar Rgs buy sugar
@13 have they ever considered telling those impoverished argentines that they can eat cake or brioche?
Feb 25th, 2013 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0well, she has been seen cosying up to the America president,
Feb 25th, 2013 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0perhaps a little miricle in the making, perhaps .lol.
Comment removed by the editor.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 09:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#16 then leave the USA and return to your Agrentina that you love so much Sussie....no one is stopping you.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More examples of America, the land of greed and corruption. Don't count on any justice either in a place where the FBI was just cited for all kinds of dishonorable acts & New York is being sued by five persons who were wrongly incarcerated and the police covered up the evidence, and Massachusetts just admitted it's state lab was falsifying evidence to incarcerate innocent persons, & the state of Georgia is being sued in a nearly 3,000 person class action lawsuit for wrongly incarcerating people, mostly fathers, in 2011. And don't overlook the dishonorable actions of Judges McCree, Jones, Adams, Lefrancois, and others. The U.S. judicial system is a sham bent only on perpetuating lifelong perks and maximizing matching federal funds at the unknowing taxpayers expense. See the kids for cash scam of two judges in Pennsylvania. Check out the sad fates of judicial abuse victims like Tom Ball, Derrick Miller, Brian Benedict, Thomas Tarbell, and James Calvert. Or child victims like Matt Worster, Tyler Hutchinson, and Adam Lanza who suffer from the effects of judicial abuse. There is no justice in the courts overrun with greed and corruption just like the U.S. banks, housing market, stock market, corporate fraud, political bribes, etc. In fact the judicial system is so full of corruption it drives 20,000 American fathers a year into suicide. Can it not be only a matter of time before cartels, gangs, organized crime, and spy networks discover how easy it is to identify and contact such individuals who are made homeless, childless, jobless, and penniless? I weep for the American public.
Feb 25th, 2013 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CFK is raching up the anti,
Feb 26th, 2013 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0sadly the argentine people will suffer decades of hurt , shame , and disgrace,
we hope you lot know what you are doing,
after all the war mongers [argie bloggers] will stay well away,
and the innocent will suffer.
#18 that is really good, you yourself prove just how bad it is in Argentina by you extraordinary efforts to deflect rather that count argue the points everyone make's here. When you cannot counter argue, cast a negative stone, whatever it make be and hope someone baits and runs with the bait. I just returned and know just how bad RGLAND is.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 01:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0Comment removed by the editor.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 03:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's time to require citizen referendums on any loans to over a pre-set amount.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 04:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0California already does this sometimes on bonds.
Make it 2/3 for it to pass, too.
@11
Feb 26th, 2013 - 09:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0I see that the WoW is treating her employees like a Scrooge. When will she cease to be haunted by the ghost of Christmas past? And how can she get away with it?
Some bloggers cannot seem to open their thoughts without being removed.....I can only image what rubbish they were spewing
Feb 26th, 2013 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.mercopress.com/2013/02/25/argentina-and-holdout-hedge-funds-prepare-for-the-final-clash-this-week#comment221126: Actually a lot of states have bond elections either at the state or city level.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 01:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They should be held at the federal level as well.
18 That post is so full of inaccuracies and exaggerations you must be Argentinian.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0...it drives 20,000 American fathers a year into suicide,
Huh?
The USA has under 40K suicides a year and you are saying more than 1/2 are fathers due to the courts?
Gads what a whale of a lie
If the legal system was as bad as you are stating I am sure we would have protesting in the streets. LIKE ARGENTINA HAS AT LEAST 1X WEEK or Vigilantism which is also rampant in Argentina. I don't know how many times I have seen a posse of neighbors burn down someone's house, stone them, kill them because the Police/Courts aren't acting.
It is frankly shocking to people who grew up in civilized societies.
In general people in the USA trust the police and courts that's is why our society functions and Argentina's doesn't.
@26
Feb 26th, 2013 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You look like a fool trying to desperately cover up the piles of shit and corruption in your country.
A country where JUVENILES are placed in prison due to bribes between police an judges, because it's “good for business”.
...“A federal jury has found a former Pennsylvania judge guilty of participating in a so-called ”kids for cash“ scheme, in which he received money in exchange for sending juvenile offenders to for-profit youth jails over the years.”
Cash for Kids... hahaha, what a joke of a civilized society.
And before the brits come to the rescue:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
Fat sticks to fat, as they say.
Now stop complaining when they charge anglos X2 for plane tickets.
@27 in 'Cash for Kids' do you have to put your children in a prepaid bag and post to some jewish guy who offers you a choice of 0.1% of their value or improbable return postage at your own expense?
Feb 26th, 2013 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes/no?
Toby, You are always looking for some equivalency between the corruption in the USA and Argentina.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 05:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There isn't any.
Argentina pales in comparison to anything that may happen here.
Your society accepts it, likes it, wants it and keeps voting it in! Your judges and Police are easily bought by the highest bidder and are bought off sometimes with $5 pesos to look the other way.
It is not like that in the USA, yes we have corruption and when it is found it is not ignored, the people involved are jailed and usually their lives and families lives are ruined. The punishment is usually severe.
But in your country it known and tolerated by every citizen and ever level the gov't.
It is shameful and it is the corruption that is constantly bringing your country down.
Ask yankeeboy... his country's entire judicial system runs based on legal corruption, and their medical system runs based on legal addiction.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Jail and police systems give judges cash to send people including minors to prison, because that gives police and jails more government $$.
Hospitals and doctors collude with privatized health care companies to hook US people to drugs and treatments, because that brings them more health care dollars.
Universities bankroll politicians so that they keep encouraging students to take hundreds of thousands in loans, thus universities can keep charging their criminally high tuition fees, and politicians win the good graces of US youth.
I'm not saying this out of my arse, though I already have mentioned all of the above in the past. Top US thinkers have said as much, their entire system is rotten to the core. The only difference is that corruption and bribing up there is done “legally” by gimmicks and hidden behind “feel-good” programs. In Argentina the corruption is less sophisticated, just simple under the table tit-for-tat.
But both are bad, difference is Argentines know we have the problem.
When you are paranoid everything and everyone is out to get you.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Get some help Toby
---The only difference is that corruption and bribing up there is done “legally” by gimmicks and hidden behind “feel-good” programs. In Argentina the corruption is less sophisticated, just simple under the table tit-for-tat---
Feb 26th, 2013 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'd agree with that
Funny we were just talking about this:
Feb 26th, 2013 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/no-one-is-safe-from-argentinas-drug-war-8512039.html
After the shooting, the neighbours vented their anger on the bunker, razing it to the ground. But the problem is far from over, Ms Jaime says, explaining that a rival bunker is only a few streets away.
Perhaps the most concerning aspect about Rosario’s drug problem is the apparent impunity drug capos and rank-and-file gang members enjoy. At the end of last year, the PSA, a federal investigative body, revealed links between the Santa Fe provincial police force and the drugs trade, in an investigation that employed phone taps and hidden cameras. Accused of protecting dealers, the then police chief Hugo Tognoli was forced to step down.
Mr Tognoli, previously head of Santa Fe’s dangerous drugs unit, was subsequently arrested and imprisoned. A judge later ordered his release after 15 days due to “lack of merit”, though he continues to be investigated for his drug associations. His replacement, Cristian Sola, lasted just 109 days and is being scrutinised for illicit gains.
Rosario was always called by Americans “the Chicago of Argentina” because it used to be the 2nd largest city, and had tons of industry. But just like Chicago is no longer 2nd and lost a lot of industry...
Feb 26th, 2013 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And just Chicago, it has a drug problem.
I guess they are quite alike, right yankeeboy? (how many kids died in Chicago last year from Mexican drug trade? 600 I think?) ... Including one that performed at Obama's inauguration.
The reason the cartels exist is because Americans and Europeans are cokeheads. No demand, no supply. Simple.
The funny thing is Americans want to squash the supply first. And yankeeboy always says how SMART Americans are about capitalism... when has supply EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD been repressed when there is demand?
Demand is what kills supply... No one eats Garum sauce in the world today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum
Thus, no one supplies it. Simple.
@34
Feb 26th, 2013 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What you say makes sense but why does it always have to be along nationality lines with you? Why not play the ball (the cultural,sociological problems and how they've come about) rather than the man (The US or Europe etc) otherwise you just seem irrational and prejudiced.
I posted that article for the info on vigilantism and judicial/police/political corruption not about the drug trade.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are drug problems everywhere.
One thing you'll never see here is shoe-less pre-teen crack (paco) addicts juggling in between cars for change.
Yankee 8 year kids are juggling in the streets too......on 9 de Julio no less in BA....that's a 10 lane avenue
Feb 26th, 2013 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah it is pretty shocking when you have not traveled to other poor countries. I hate hate hate the filthy kids ( and sometimes adults) that sell trinkets, bandages, packs of gum table by table in restaurants. I asked my friend why the restaurants let them in and he says its a mafia and if you bother them you'll get hurt or they'll trash your business.
Feb 26th, 2013 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The kids juggling is sad too, the next step is usually prostitution and for they're lucky to make it through the 6th grade and to know how to read and write.
@35
Feb 27th, 2013 - 02:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Always along nationality lines? What is that “always”?
You make it sound as if I had been here for longer than my (thus far) two days and change.
Now that THE day arrived.......I wonder how long for the ruling, perhaps by the weekend.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=173031824
Feb 27th, 2013 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Q. What's the end game?
A. Expect the appellate ruling in two to four months. Most analysts predict Argentina will lose and further appeals will be turned down, giving this panel the final word. Since Argentina appears unwilling to settle out of court, J.P. Morgan analyst Vladimir Werning says, “This boils down to a blueprint for an end game where Argentina snuffs N.Y. law, its courts and its payment system and it offers restructured bondholders the option of getting paid fully in Buenos Aires.”
Q. Would Argentina really pull out of the U.S. financial system?
A. Economist Rodolfo Rossi, Argentina's central bank president in the 1990s, says ending up “completely isolated and refusing to pay its debts” would only bring more trouble for the country. Like many Argentines who have backed Fernandez's fight against the holdouts, he says she can't show weakness now, but has to settle eventually in order to refinance all of Argentina's debts and bring back investment.
They are fucked and their pride is fucking them harder.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Arrogance started this mess but necessity is directing it. They don't have enough U$ to pay creditors and for fuel. It just doesn't add up. So the game is to delay and obstruct until the bitter end when CFK will either be out of office, in jail or dead.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The next gov't will have to offer new U$ denominated bonds to all the holdouts, ICSID judgements, Repsol, etc etc etc which will put them right back where they started 10 yrs ago with debt but now all the reserves are gone, Anses $ gone and Arg is stuck with money losing nationalized companies.
The Ks destroyed this country..and in only a decade! That is quite an accomplishment.
@43
Feb 27th, 2013 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you even believe your own crap? There will be no re-denominations. A default is a default. Period end of story.
@44 Nossy the x marks the spot, or whatever your name is by the time I stop typing.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You WISH it was period, end of story.
As Winston Churchill said about the 'Battle for Britain: 'this is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end, but it may be the end of the beginning'.
You ain't seen anything yet, young man.
Toby, Even you are not stupid enough to think the business, gov'ts, Int'l banks, investors are just going to let Argentina get away with not paying their debts.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Arg has been fighting for 10 years and have lost every battle.
Once the noose is tight enough Arg will acquiesce it is just a matter of time and the interest rate keep tacking more and more onto what they will receive.
tick toc tock toc
I would assume that once that collapse has happened and they already hung and buried that last of the kirchner ghouls, the international community will require some repayment, something they can afford and maintain growth in their economy. But they will not got off without paying some debt back.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0One thing I don't think CFK has thought through thoroughly is the reinstatement of the Grain Board. Which means Argentina owns all the Farm products being shipped OUT of the country. Seems like that would be a very good product to seize for debts.
Feb 27th, 2013 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They're cornered and there is going to be a lot of growling and biting soon,
Interesting that the judge said their role is to enforce contracts, not rewrite them. The ruling may take several weeks.
Feb 28th, 2013 - 04:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0I heard said reports that stated the judges were quite impatient with Argentina.....two were even caught rolling their eyes during RGs arguments, now that did not sound promising for Argentina, not to mention that is did not bode well for them to threaten the court indirectly by telling the judges....“if you rule against Argentina, we have no intention od following the order and will default” I always knew American lawyers will do anything for money, taking th RG case is proof.
Feb 28th, 2013 - 11:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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