MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
‘Justice or democracy’, Uruguay’s dilemma according to The Economist
The Economist in its latest edition publishes a piece on Uruguay in which it reveals accurately the dilemma facing the country as a consequence of the legacy of the military dictatorship, 1973/1984 with all the killings, disappeared and tortured. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesMariana Mota, remember that name.
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0‘Justice AND Democracy’, Argentina’s choice thanks to the Kirchners.
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Think
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0They say common crimes have prescribed.
We say crimes against humanity is not common crimes.
We'll get them, if not in court, in a tatucera.
(3) Stevie
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 10:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0I recomend the courts.
Those criminals are only useful in jail, as examples.
Not in tatuceras, as martyrs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Z_svHVLjQ
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 10:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0If it's an option we have to make, justice will go before democracy.
(5) Stevie
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0As my old ears hear it, that poem only reinforces my recommendation at (4)
Ask your viejo, if he’s still around…
Of course the courts are the main tool to make justice. But now they have removed Mota from the ecuation and transferred her to civilian law. She refuses to stop though, and as so many times before, don't be surprised if you read about her premature death. Should that happen, there are no legal courts to trust, and there is a possibility you will have “your” martyrs.
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0(7) Stevie
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To finish...
The bastards have been defeated...
Their time on earth is running out...
They are dying in their bed one aftter one....
Justice may not have been served as in Argentina, but Uruguay will eventually come out of this as a better Country.
Nunca Más
A good , incisive article -- as one would expect from The Economist . The issue is such a dilemma . Do as Spain and agree on a pact - Monclova - forget the past and move into the future ( I am being simplistic I know , but that was the deal ) or be like the Argentine and harp back to the past . Trying certain military officers time and time again for crimes committed during the dictatorship . In some cases they have various life sentences .
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 02:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or an alternative would be to investigate those who caused the coup -- terrorists who killed policemen and soldiers who were just doing their job defending police stations or barracks -- and those who perpetrated crimes against humanity after the coup . I understand that Brazil is following the second choice .
Baxter
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The ones who caused the coup were the oligarchs that, after the cañeros marched to Montevideo gathering workers and students to protest against inhumane conditions of living, chose to open fire against them. Liber Arce was the first victim, long before the Tupamaros fired one single bullet.
Then you have the difference between common crimes and crimes against humanity. The former ones prescribes, the latter ones don't.
Call it a crime to take up arms against a “democratically” chosen government, even if they send police to shoot and kill their own people. It wouldn't surprise me if you do. But you will never get around the fact that torturing, murdering and kidnapping of babies is a crime against humanity.
@2 'Justice', 'Democracy'. Two words that argieland may have heard of. But has no idea what they mean. As a result, no argie is competent to comment on either concept. For example, argieland as a whole is guilty of murder, war crimes, genocide, fraud and perverting the course of justice. Why isn't argieland in court? On the other “word”, democracy does NOT include buying votes. Either with money or food. Or doing nothing that “the people” want. Or stealing their money. Or “fiddling” results. In a democracy, a “government” GOVERNS in accordance with the will of the people. It does not RULE. Particularly, it does not rule by decree. In a democracy, any decree, by its nature, is invalid. The more “decrees” a “country” has, the less democratic the “country is.
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@10 I wonder. I have researched. I have found references to the kidnapping of babies. I cannot find any references to torturing or murdering said babies. Do you have credible evidence? Or is it what ”everybody knows”?
conqueror
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The babies weren't tortured or murdered, they were given to police families. The ones tortured and murdered were the parents and every person that disagreed with the junta.
Stevie @ 10
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fibbing again, Stevie?
The Tupamaros started their terrorist activities in the 1960s. The government of the time was democratic, a concept you clearly don't undertstand. Perhaps it was a good administration or a bad one, but the decent thing to do is ask your MPs to protest, wait for the next elections, and vote for someone else.
But the Tupamaros knew they'd never be voted in at that time, so they started terrorist activities. The cañeros were a poor, uneducated group of workers who'd been expoited for many years by certain landowners, and were then exploited by the likes of Sendic in their own bid for absolute power (still happening).
13
Mar 23rd, 2013 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Liber Arce was killed 1968 by the “democratic elected government”. Children in the “interior” where starving and the workers crying for the ability to feed their loved ones. Raul Sendic and his cañeros marched towards Montevideo, gathering people along the way to protest against your “democratic elected goverment”. The good years of the 50's were long gone, since Europe already waas back on track after the great war. The people were paying the price, not the oligarchs, they lived as good as ever. When demonstrations reached Montevideo, the response was violence. Students gathered to aid the workers, massive student protest all around Montevideo ended with the murdering of Liber Arce. He was the first, but not the last to die at the hands of your “democratic elected government”. Now you tell me, during this period, up until 1968, what did the Tupamaros do, you say?
Raul Sendic, the leader of the Tupamaro, WAS A CAÑERO.
“Por la tierra, y con Sendic”, remember? That applied to the cañeros and, oh the irony, Punta Carretas as well.
This article explains why Pepe was quoted as saying 'sometimes the president has to act irrespective of the law'.
Mar 25th, 2013 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He sought, as a gangster, to overthrow a democratically elected government, and spent 14 years in prison as a result of being caught. So he failed twice.
I wonder what HE would say if someone like he was then tried to overthrow his government. I think it would be ‘different’ now.
What happened to the children was unforgiveable but for the COUNTRY to move on the democratically voted referendums to continue with the amnesty need to be respected.
How many Uruguayos AGREE with you Stevie? There is clearly ONE here who does not. Now, who do I think is telling the truth, someone who lives in the country and who has consistently posted truthfully or ‘a citizen of the planet’ who is too ashamed of himself to state what country he lives in.
I think we ALL know the answer to that.
Stevie
Mar 25th, 2013 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Congratulations, you've learned the Tupamaros' “Historia Oficial” by heart. This knot of fibs is actually in certain history books distributed by the current gov't, many of whose members are making money hand over fist by being “professional leftists”. Pity you have no critical sense, you'll always parrot what you're told to say.
Chris
Mar 25th, 2013 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 048% voted against that inhumane law. You know what the question was? “”You want to remove the law?“. 48% said ”yes“, there were no other options, if you didn't vote, it went to the ”no”-side. Thats a farce.
ynsere
You tell me then, what did the Tupamaros do prior to Liber Arce's death in 1968? Let me help you, the Swiss Shooting Club? Ha!
17 Stevie
Mar 26th, 2013 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I find your post incredile in the real sense of the word so I will go over what you have said thus:
Ballot card had the question: You want to remove the law? there was only the option to say YES, there was no NO option?
OR there was no OTHER question.
OR the people who never went to vote were counted as NO.
Please clarify.
Stevie
Mar 26th, 2013 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Prior to 1968, Tupamaros murdered Dora Isabel López (Sendic involved) and Antonio Silveira. Plus another 74 afterwards.
This information is freely available on the internet, with sourced quoted. Why don't you do a little research before spouting out the “official history” published by the political branch of the criminal organisation involved?
ynsere
Mar 26th, 2013 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You little twister of history, you.
Antonio Silveira died in an encounter with the Tupamaros indeed, he was shot by accident by his colleague. A Tupamaro died in the incident. If you check cause of death it says “Muerto en procedimiento”.
Dora Isabel López was killed in a cañeros protest action back in 1962, long before the MLN-T even existed.
It is, as you say, all freely available on the internet.
Chris, there was just one option, the people who never went to vote, counted as a no, Still, 48% of the voters voted yes. That's a flawed election with a biased question.
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