Pope Francis has called for decisive action in the fight against sex abuse of minors by priests. He told Bishop Gerhard Mueller, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith - the Vatican watchdog that deals with sex abuse cases - to ensure that perpetrators were punished. Read full article
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Well done Pope Francisco go and rebuild the churchApr 06th, 2013 - 05:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven., Matthew 19:14, King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)Apr 06th, 2013 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Kind of makes you wonder how the Catholic church is going to get into heaven with all the suffering they've been dealing out to those little children. Combined with all the corruption, when we all know it's harder for catholics like tony blair to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for him to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I just don't see how any of these polytheistic idolators are going to get there.
2@Apr 06th, 2013 - 10:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
hey, you seem to be having a bad day, out with the sarcam :-) And no, we are not idolatric, we just enjoy having a heavenly family and I don´t think that is bad in anyway, I love my family here too, if that makes me be idolatric then idolatric I will be, and proud of it.
About the Church yes, there have been terrible things done there, but also lovely and beautiful things too that talk about the wonders of God. The mere fact God has been so patient with we all human beings is a wonder in itself and a testimony of his love, he is capable of giving his live for each one of us sinners as we are, and I love him because of it.
About the Church yes, there have been terrible things done there, but also lovely and beautiful things too that talk about the wonders of God. Apr 06th, 2013 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
And as we all know: so long as you do some good things now & then you can be forgiven for all the many bad things you have done...
No, it means you may not suffer back as much because of what you did. :)Apr 06th, 2013 - 11:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Thats the kind of Pope we need, its about time.Apr 06th, 2013 - 01:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@5 ElenaApr 06th, 2013 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
”No, it means you may not suffer back as much because of what you did. :)
This article says your Pope wants them punished, because of what they did.
He told Bishop Gerhard Mueller, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith - the Vatican watchdog that deals with sex abuse cases - to ensure that perpetrators were punished.”
7@Apr 06th, 2013 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Yes you are very right, but I was talking from the spiritual/religious POV to answer Anbar. Pope Francis is both spiritual leader and also the head of the Vatican state, Priests are part of it, so is his duty and responsiblity to order for them to be punished acording to international law as leader of the Vatican. But as a Spiritual leader, he probably will at least give them the oportunity of repenting and make reparations as the consequences of their actions in the spiritual sense are a lot worse than being put in hail or even death in our faith. Give the Cesar what´s of the Cesar and give God what´s of God
The only decisive action that the church must take would be to defrock, excommunicate, and submit all offenders they know about to the proper jurisdictions for legal civil prosecution. But then who would be left to run the church?Apr 06th, 2013 - 02:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Oh there are many Priests worthy of the name that are great persons, the media just never talks or shows them,. Excommunion for them is a real possibility too.Apr 06th, 2013 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The problem is going to be that the paper trail detailing the organised cover-up by the church will implicate far more priests in this monumentally disgusting criminal conspiracy than the actual number of paedophiles it'll implicate.Apr 06th, 2013 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If it were as simple as just weeding out child molesters from the clergy they would have done it by now. The fact is that the church's self-protective nature has (unwittingly or not) turned it into a massive scale enabler of paedophiles and any in-depth investigations into the crimes of individual priests will show this up in a way that could shatter the church as an organisation.
So basically, no matter what the new pope says, no substantial change to the policy of the church hiding paedos and covering up their crimes is going to happen, mainly because it CAN'T
@10, 11 Fundamentally, the catholic warlockery needs to sack everyone and start again. Weeding out the paedophiles and gay-hating gay 'priests' would just remove everyone from the organisation anyways, except for maybe 3 women who are barred from being priests anyways because it would impact on their orgiastic lifestyles..Apr 06th, 2013 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Fundamentally catholicism IS NOT christianity, as they don't follow the teachings of Jesus. Instead they pray to a pantheon of demi-gods (the communion of saints), they pray to idols of their godess mary, and they canonize every ex-poope making them into a saint-deity. Then they worship this poope's desicated arm, in a festival of ancestor worship. Then they have another god called Satan who is seemingly just as powerful as their diety, denoting pluralism in their beliefs and dualism.
Whatever the hell that is, it's not got anything to do with Jesus or God.
we say,Apr 06th, 2013 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
if we see loads of sackings,
then alls good and well,
but if nothing happens,
then he would have failed, like so many before him,
no one has been sacked, defrocked, or excommunicated from the catholic polytheistic organisation since this system-wide nonce issue was made public. So I can hardly see how he's going to restore trust in people like Elena, who doesn't seem to understand fundamentally what catholicism even is.Apr 06th, 2013 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
12,14Apr 06th, 2013 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Sweetheart you are mistaking catholicism with Manichaeism:
1. The syncretic, dualistic religious philosophy taught by the Persian prophet Manes, combining elements of Zoroastrian, Christian, and Gnostic thought and opposed by the imperial Roman government, Neo-Platonist philosophers, and orthodox Christians.
2. A dualistic philosophy dividing the world between good and evil principles or regarding matter as intrinsically evil and mind as intrinsically good.
Please, next time, before you make such openly ignorant comments towards someone´s beliefs , at least be careful enough to research a little about what that religion is really about. Now I am curious, what do you think about Orthodox Christians?
@15 I know the catholic polytheists killed the Gnostics, you don't need to remind me of that. I'm talking about catholicism's insistence on non-christian ideology such as praying to idols, such as mary and the communion of saints. This is functionally polytheism, arguably necromancy and a festival of ancestor worship. The role of the poope and his warlocks to intercede between the 'believer' and deity, by handing out 'hail mary's which are exultations of an idol is complete nonsense.Apr 06th, 2013 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
'Orthodox Christian' should be a contradiction in terms. If these 'orthodox folk' share anything with catholics, such as praying to canonised ex- orgiastic-lifestyle popes then they are also not christians.
I don't see why you're so upset about someone saying the truth about your non-christian religion. You should be proud that you worship saints and worship golden statues of mary, with a paedophile interceding between you and the big man. To me it's abhorrent to even call that Christianity.
16 @Apr 06th, 2013 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Oh, dear, now I am the upset one? XD
So you don´t know either anything about Orthodox Christians yet you say you are Christian. Did you know both Catholic and Orthodox Christians are the older Christian churches in the world? that actually the first great schism inside the catholic church was that of the Orthodox Christians ? that they traditionally have the very same beliefs of the catholic church except for obedience to the Pope? whence the Orthodox part, and that this happened before the protestant reform which also came FROM the Catholic Church?
You may argue the reasons of the different separations, but if all other Churches that call themselves Christians came from the Catholic Church, wont that make the catholic church also Christian if by mere participation given it came from the primitive Church founded by the Apostles? I don´t have hope yet of you liking Catholics but at least accept those facts as they are. Any book on history of religion can tell you this. Greetings :D
13@ I agree, is a fair proposition.
6@ Yes indeed :)
@17 Orthodox churches exist because they question the legitimacy of Rome's rule, given that Constantinople was equally as important at the time, splitting the catholics into the east and west. There are other issues which I won't go into now. They also questioned the poope's claim to have papal supremacy, which is just utterly ridiculous considering his universal power over his army of paedophiles..Apr 06th, 2013 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The fact the protestant churches broke away was because Catholicism had and has nothing to do with Christ, nor God, therefore it is not Christianity. Most popes spent their days drunk and having orgies. If you consider that to be the 'vicar of christ' then what on earth do you think Jesus would say about that?
Christianity is about Jesus, Catholicism is about nonsense.
Catholicism is Christianism but you are way too biased to see it,. That nonsense about idolatry I hear it where I live too, it actually came from a very badly interpreted passage of the Bible, when Yahve talks about idols, it seems some ppl can´t think those idols aren´t just material, we often can make idols from ourselves and our egos. I also what don´t get about some protestants is How can they love Chris , but still being at least very cold towards his mother ? Anyway, usually protestants here are at least more acceting of us being Christians, they criticize our traditions not us not being sort of Christians XD. Well, hope you have a nice day. Must go ;- )Apr 06th, 2013 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
So many Gods to choose from, I thank them all I'm an atheist :)Apr 06th, 2013 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@19 His mother is just his mother, we don't worship her because Jesus is quite clear about not worshipping things like, his mother, saints, himself, rich men in dresses claiming to be infallible and yet doing nothing nothing about widespread paedophilia within his infallible organisation that claims to represent christ. So Catholics choose to ignore Jesus and God, by worshipping everything they see. In the first vatican council the pope decided that Mary was assumed by heaven and made her into some kind of deity. It's just strange.Apr 06th, 2013 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Ignoring the teachings of jesus is not christianity, it's that simple. Catholicism is not christianity and no pope warlock represents christ, even though they claim to be his vicar.
You're not a christian, get over it.
@21 Catholics agree with you she isn´t a deity, I just think most protestants are way too sensitive and sometimes hostile about her, without reason IMO. Given Christ himself say we were to look at her like our mother on the cross. That´s all.Apr 06th, 2013 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
- Well, no we don´t worship everything we see, but I doubt I will convince you XD
- I find hard to ignore his teaching given we read them every sunday along with the teachings of the old testament. so lest agree to disagree.
-If you say so, you are free to have your oppinion.
@20 That´s fine actually, to have faith you need to chose what to believe , I would be more worried if you were to get too new age. ;-)
ElenaApr 06th, 2013 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
With all respect I have to say I don't believe in superstition. There are as many Gods as there are unicorns in my world, and painting a horse with a horn will not help.
But if you feel the need of a 1400 year old book telling you what morals to adopt, I'm not going to convince you to do differently.
I just find it remarkable when people speaks about their belief when it's very much imposed on them since childhood. And so for generations.
@23 Sorry if I offended you, I was just being honest. And who said morality was all I see in religion? I studied philosophy, so I get how modern morality came to be, but being a religious person involves a little more than that.Apr 06th, 2013 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Also, While we do learn from childhood most ppl when older chose to keep being an active catholic or a catholic just in name, so yes, there is a choice involved there. Greetings, didn´t really want to be a bother sorry :-)
@23 lordy-lord if the hackneyed assumption that all people of faith are only so because of family roots or brainwashing. That one is so tired.Apr 07th, 2013 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
@22 So long as you know you're not a Christian, and you are aware you worship mary and the pantheon of saints then I don't see any issues. This would make you a Maryist or communion of saints'ist. At least then you'd be true to yourself while you carry your idols around on your shoulders.
Just be honest with yourself.
ElenaApr 07th, 2013 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I am the one who is sorry. My words came out in a fashion not intended.
I'm curious, what else in religion do you find enlightening besides the preached morality?
@26 why do you care? you've already come to a prejudgement about her and her experiences. If she said she experienced the presence of God or some vision you'll just call her a brainwashed delusional psycho, or a gay-hating hypocrite.Apr 07th, 2013 - 12:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
You militant athiests should try to be original, just once.
@26 StevieApr 07th, 2013 - 04:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I'm curious, what else in religion do you find enlightening besides the preached morality?
Well, God created the entire universe, not only us and this beautiful planet and all those stars out there, but all those other galaxies out there beyond the stars. That is some incredible unimaginable power!
AND, God, the One with that power, loves us. That is an incredibly powerful love. For people who believe, that is enlightening.
As well, from that powerful love of our God for us, in our afterlife, we have been given a way into heaven, to be with God's incredibly powerful love for eternity. That way, is Jesus Christ. He is the way to heaven. For those who believe, that too is very enlightening.
That's what else, just for starters though. Now here come all the attacks with arguments about all the evil religion has done in this world. But, religion has made this world happier, it's absence would be hellish (like Hitler or Stalin). And to be fair, the Catholic Church does a lot of good in this world too. Mother Theresa was bad?
But according to Argentina the main thrust of this speech was the Popes full support for Argentina's claim to the Falkland Islands. The Papacy urged the UK to agree to talks without any pesky little Islanders present. He also indicated his full support for Turkey Neck changing the constitution for her own benefit, gay marriage and the current policy of enriching members of the governing Family at the expense of the rural Argentine poor. It just wasn't reported accurately.Apr 07th, 2013 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
28Apr 07th, 2013 - 11:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I wont enter a debate on how the world was created. I've stated already, in my world, there are as many dieties as there are unicorns. You could spend your entire life debating the issue, it would bring you no closer to the answer than the theory it is.
If it's true that there are no wars and no poor people in heaven, it's our duty to bring heaven to earth. I will never accept religions telling me to stop acting and start praying, when the ones in charge refuses to follow their own example and pray on people instead.
Religion isn't evil, religion is a tool.
Compare it with a hammer. I could use it to build a house, and I could use it to smash somebody in the face. Whatever I choose, it's not the hammers fault.
I wont comment on Mother Theresa, she did many good things for many people in her conviction. But her conviction led her to take decisions I don't fully agree with as well.
She was a human being that did what she thought was best for the people she thought needed it the most. That is more than you can say of most people.
Thanks Shed-Time and bushpilotApr 07th, 2013 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
26@ In a way Shed and bushpilot already answered you, I will just add some things. I do have personal experiences but I don´t think this´s the place to comment
Most ppl don´t know but mordern perception of morality came from a very much strong influence of Moise Decalogue, Plato´s cardinal values, even Aristotle followed him on this, and the so called Natural Law which became Rome´s fundamentals for Roman law, at least in the western side of things. This was heleped by Rome conversion into Christianism, the princpial representant of this change is St. Augustine and from him on.
Now , the curious description of this times given by phylosopers and thinkers both faithful or not, is that we are living is the relativization of most values and with it, a lost of meaning in the value of human live and dignity of the persons. Sartre used to say: Now is the same thing to kill a human being or a butterfly maybe not in the law system side but in the perception, ethics and caring about other ppl shown by most at this times, this´s unfurtanely true.
So persoanlly for me, God isn´t just someone I look for inside in my religion, I will agree with you in that religion in a way is a tool, but for me and a lot of religious ppl, that tool is precisely what let me aproach God, for me God is truth itself, Good itself, Justice itself, and the reason for the existence of human live as we know it which gives value to human live. So if when we part from him, not only in the way of not believing in God, there has always been ppl that don´t believe, but in the form of getting away of all that gives value to ppl, then the world of today is easier to understand.
An moral Atheist would say, we are losing meaning, we are losing values, a catholic(or Christian or monoteist person) would say, we are losing God, we lost lost the source of joy, our good news(Evangelio) and both sides are talking about the same talk even if they don´t know it.
@31 Fundamentally Jesus teaches that we should: a) love God with all our might; and b) behave towards others as we would like to be treated ourselves.Apr 07th, 2013 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I understand what you are saying, but your approach towards God is fundamentally owned by the Catholic organisation. And if justice is Godly, why have the catholic church done absolutely nothing to admonish the paedo-priests, the corrupt vatican bankers, and all the other wrongness currently experienced within the non-universal church.
I stand with athiest in directly questioning the moral and ethical leadership of the catholic church, their ownership of the relationship between 'catholics' and God, and finally their claim to represent Jesus without seemingly following any of his teachings. Compare John the Baptist's jumping about naked in the wilderness to the opulent orgiastic lifestyle of most catholic priests.
This is where my agreement would end with yourself.
Is alright, most Catholics also have been questioning that, As a fellow Catholic once said: I didn´t stay inside of the catholic church because of the priests, so I will not leave because of them And even in the Bible God is known also for admonish his representants when they sin, this happened even with King David but he NEVER leaves them unless people themselves chose that. For me the catholic church has unique spiritual/Godly atributes given by God himself that are very worthy of being kept and protected something most Priests are already trying to do, even with pressures normal/supernatual from outside and inside the Church, so that´s why I stay catholic but respect your position because in a way I share it too. Greetings :-)Apr 07th, 2013 - 04:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I wasn't really interested in the unicorns aspect of it all. I merely wondered what else than morals in there in religion that is enlightening. Any religion whatsoever.Apr 07th, 2013 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
What is it if not a set of rules designed to make humans function together under the same banner?
I fully understand the need of religion in certain time in our history.
But I also understand that in 2013, people don't stop stealing because a book tells them to, as little as the book has any influence on people killing or not.
If anything, those writings, regardless of religion, are the prime reason for war throughout history.
Well,I think we are really talking of different things here, that or you just wan´t to troll :) . Ok, lest see: I disagree,is not exactly because a book tell us XD,so lest agree to disagree there. and there´s a difference between moral theory as this just involves human beings , to the perception/experience of something different /greater than what we see at a normal glance and is a fundament of all things, so lest disagree on this too.Apr 07th, 2013 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I talked in general about Christianism because I am part of it, I don´t feel with the authority to talk about other ppl religion because I aren´t part of it, so it would be wrong for me to talk for them. So you may have to ask them personally, but please, be more respectful, If you talk about unicorns they will just take you as an ignorant at best and or crazy at worst. I known you talk about unicorns in a sarcastic way, but for me and most religious that´s just part of the folklore of some cultures and maybe a children story.
ElenaApr 07th, 2013 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I don't think you are being disrespectful to me just because you talk about God. And I can assure you I believe as much in God as you do in unicorns.
Other than that, you don't have to feel the need to answer for others, and you certainly don't have to answer if you don't wish.
Just give me a glimpse for the perspective of your own religion. What is so enlightening about religion (any religion, not necessarily all of them) other than morals.
For me and most atheist, religion is part of the folklore and most certainly a children story.
With all respect.
I already did, the problem is that your position is already taken. you already decided to judge other ppl by your own standars, well more like beliefs not believing is a belief on itself , whatever I say now will just fall on deaf ears. So why take the time? You don´t want to know anyway and you are entitled to your oppinion.Apr 07th, 2013 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
ElenaApr 07th, 2013 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
So, other than morals, religion offer superstition.
I never judged you though, I was talking about religion in general, something that I specifically mentioned.
How can not believing be a belief? I don't believe in anything supernatural. It's not like I believe I don't believe...
When/if you wen´t deeper into how human beings know or study or discover new things, you learn most of the time, human beings have a subjetive pov, so there´s always a level of belief in most types knowledgeApr 07th, 2013 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Indeed, in science one level of belief is called a theory, another an accepted theory. The are both ultimately replaced by a fact. That one is not a belief anymore. The earth is not flat, for example.Apr 07th, 2013 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
One big difference with science and religion, is that science doesn't label anything a fact, until the theory has been proven.
Another one is the ability science has to change a theory should the opposite be proven, something every religion has been struggeling with for most of their lifetime.
Indeed, in science one level of belief is called a theory, another an accepted theory. The are both ultimately replaced by a fact. That one is not a belief anymore. The earth is not flat, for example.Apr 07th, 2013 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Until a new theory replaces the new one and so on, that´s why Thomas Kuhn sugested to change theory or principle for paradigm, But ppl that aren´t scientists believe more because of an argumento of authority more than because they are sure of the fact that´s why it took so much to realize earth wasn´t flat for some ppl. Now isn´t that different.
Religion isn´t about facts because it´s a Revealed knowledge, no religion has ever say we discovered God is more like God revealed himself to us Over time, Faith became a central part of religios ppl. Also while Science depends of the intense investigation and subjectivity of each scientist from different disciplines, Faith even after discovering a fact keeps being part of any study,because scientists work from info done before them, believe in it and keep doing studies from there.
Arer you telling me people tend to belief more the less educated they are? I'm inclined to believe you.Apr 07th, 2013 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
What you call faith in science is the human treat of wanting to find an answer to a presented problem.
No, I am telling you religion and science knowledge comes from different sources and that both involve faith to trasmit them. Religion and faith aren´t as separated as you would think, Eistein used to say: Man finds God behind every door that science is able to open under this perception God can even manifest himself by way of scientific knowledge. But you are right to think generally human beings assume religious ppl are just ignorant, even St. Agustin thought this once before becoming a Christian his is a great history about looking for knowledge , because we humans tend to be esceptic on almost everything.Apr 07th, 2013 - 10:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Elena, you need climb down from your cross and see the catholic church for what it is. The Vatican sees you as a woman as a second class citizen, it cultures certain types of men for its hierachy, as a woman you are unfit to occupy a senior position in your own church, simply because you are a woman.Apr 07th, 2013 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
They bully and ridicule gay men and women, good people who are productive in society and last Pope stating that they are the greatest evil in the world, which was a disgraceful statement.
All this while the same perverse men that occupy the positions of priest and cardinal are they themselves committing the most horrific sexual offences against children.
I am grateful I live in a society where the catholic church is marginalised and becoming more and more so, with good people seeing the catholic church for what it is, the preserve of perverts, liars and bigots.
Well, sorry but I symply don´t agree.Apr 07th, 2013 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
1.- The Catholic church was one of the few institutions that decided to give an education to women at the time general society would think politically correct for women to just occupy themselves on their home. That fact that general society changed doesn´t make it less true, Even if nuns aren´t priest all of them can freely direct their own religious organizations, Even today, some Gov. have problem in having a woman become a president of a country. I already said this, the Chruch isnt politically correct neither should it be.
About the crimes inside the Church, well we are comenting precisely about the Pope taking initiative to deal with such a situation. And sorry but I am not on any cross, I am just giving my oppinion, what´s so wrong about that? has become politically correct to talk bad about the Chruch and whoever doesn´t agree with that is being politically incorrect and should just shup up?
@42 Hackneyed statements from atheists about science and religion being unable to co-exist in one mind. Wow, how unique and creative you are in your arguments.Apr 07th, 2013 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@45 However, fundamentally only men are allowed to hold a place within the decision making structure of the catholic organisation, and women are banned from these offices. Anything that marginalises or prevents people from taking a role based upon their sex is not something I would agree with.
Compare this to Jesus who regularly spoke with women about religion and arguably had a very close associate who was a woman. Sadly this didn't go down well with the Church of Rome at the time which suddenly became a rampant den of misogyny, containing popes with orgiastic lifestyles. Another example of Jesus doing one thing, Catholics doing another.
Cheese is not bread, and catholicism is not christianity.
46Apr 08th, 2013 - 08:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Of course science and religion can co-exist, and militant atheist?
Whom are you responding to?
The only militance I see here, is your desperate, protestant attempt to to steal the invention of the christians.
Both falangs are superstition. Now you argue who is the most superstitious. You attack her Mary and her saints, and here I am, wondering what about those stories you DO adopt from that very same novel...
@45Apr 08th, 2013 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Elena, you poor deluded woman, the only office you are fit for in your church is shuffling round in a habit, you should learn your place, the Catholic Church doesn't like women who think for themselves. You had better get some knee pads, cos you are going to be doing some serious genuflecting when the full realisation of the abuse perpetrated by this church is exposed.
You clearly support the fact that your precious priests have been sucking off alter boys at Sunday school.
Filthy despicable duplicitous religion.