MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentine lawmakers criticize Lady Thatcher over the ‘Belgrano’ and for promoting economic ‘neo-liberalism’
The Argentine government remains silent on the death last Monday of former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, but several lawmakers, former officials and Malvinas veterans organizations did have something say and not only linked to the Falklands war and the sinking of the Argentine cruiser ‘Belgrano’ in May 1982. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesWho sent the Belgrano to war again?
Apr 10th, 2013 - 07:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0In the words of Basil Fawlty “ You started it first”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 07:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry Argentina there is no silver lining to starting an unprovoked war and then having your arse kicked all the way home.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0None whatsoever.
“we know she applied the formula of the Conservatives which is using foreign policy to solve domestic problems”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0So the same policy the RG's are now using?!!!!! Hehe what a bunch of funky idiots!
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1571164-a-margaret-thatcher-no-le-temblo-el-pulso
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Bravo!
31 years to file a lawsuit and no one seemed to get around to it!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0Too busy talking about the Malvinas I'm guessing.
@5 - that article is rather unbalanced and an Argentine point of view. Sending “savage” ghurkas to fight against the civilised argentines etc - just repeating the same old myths. The Gurhkas actually didn't see much action other than mopping up groups of Argentines that had been bypassed during the advance.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.lanacion.com.ar/700676-cartas-de-lectores
For all those Malvinista critics of the sinking of the Belgrano, I will leave a link with the letter sent by one of the former admirals in the juna who wrote to LN a few years ago when someone was complaining of the Belgrano war crime.
What a prize plonker. They start a war and it is the other sides fault when their men get killed. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, is there something in the water over there? Something that mutates their brain cells? It's the only feasible explanation.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0Here's an epiphany for you mate! If you kept those men at home where they belonged, then they would still be alive today and more to the point, so would our young men!
Blame where blame rests, with you and no one else! You sorry excuse for a man!
“But beyond the differences with Argentina, her death was a great loss for the UK”.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do these people research anything, or just open wide and spout tripe on automatic!
I mean you only need to go on line for a bout 5 minutes to establish that her death WAS NOT a great lose to a very large group of people in the UK!
Its just lies with unfounded rhetoric - these guys would last five seconds with a a three year old (possibly the same 3 year old that KFC was triping on about a few weeks ago).
And then even more stupidity:
“Trejo says his organization is pressing Foreign Minister Héctor Timerman to file charges over war crimes against Argentina during the 1982 Malvinas War.”
all you need to do is consider :
1) the unmapped minefields dotting around the islands
2) the FACT that RG naval officers have already admitted that they could have been considered a legit target as they were in an offensive operation.
Oh dear! really, how many times must they continue to talk rubbish as if it were gospel????
please RG governement and nationalist please GO HOME AND SHUT UP!!
Who seriously gives a stuff what this old fart thinks!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sun Tzu said:
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
...favoured military intervention? When Rgland sends 10000 troops in an invasion, he is saying that it was wrong for Britain to fight? He has been taking too much Mate! Full of hyperbole as usual.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Malvinas do not exist, the never have and never will. Long live the Falkland Islands!
Thank you Maggie...
I think that they should file at the ICC. Her defence can then include evidence from their own generals to defeat them.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sending a ww2 vintage warship into waters where a nuclear attack sub is stupid and liable to get you killed
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0The entire episode will go down in history has one of the poorest acts of political judgement and miscalculation in history. A sixth form political sciences student could have told them what Thatchers response was going to be.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0At the end of WWII , Argentina gave the Nazis thousands of blank passports .
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why don't they dish them out instead to Arthur Scargill , George Galloway and all the other superannuated communist filth that still pollute parts of the UK ?
Then they can all sit around and moan about Neo liberalism till the cows come home . Only there are no cows , because the Pampas are now a soja/ roundup induced , ecological nightmare created by the economic policies of the K's to bankroll their bread and circus economy of free football and welfare cheques .
“”“and against the peaceful resolution of conflicts as when she ordered the sinking of the ‘Belgrano’””“”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0wtf are these people on?
They launch the military invasion of somewhere and then complain when some of their people get killed.
So how does war in Argentina work? They invade somewhere and nobody is allowed to defend themselves, otherwise its a) genocide b) not peaceful c) unfair.
what a bunch of category A morons.
Never heard a shooting war refered to as a peaceful resolution of conflict before.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course they are going to say it had not started yet, what was all that noise on the islands in early hours of 2nd of April? Party poppers. What did their first hero die of? Old age.
“Never heard a shooting war refered to as a peaceful resolution of conflict before.”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0I suspect that the comment will go down in history alongside those of jolly good folks like Hitler & Stalin as an example of people with no grasp on reality being allowed into positions of power - tacitly supported by a Nationalist frenzy and general wilful ignorance.
Its a truly astonishing comment that shows utter disregard for the lives lost because of ARGENTINA starting a war....then complaining that the enemy was unfairly shooting back at them.
You cannot make this stuff up!!!!!
Nobody would believe you.
Just another feeble attempt to deflect responsibility for their actions. As is often said on here, their national mantra is, “It is always some one else's fault.”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Don't forget that the 10,000 Argentinian troops were only visiting the Falkland Islands on a peace keeping mission!!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse 07 txiki
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0I assume you are refeing to this link:
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1571164-a-margaret-thatcher-no-le-temblo-el-pulso
If so you have misunderstood the transaltion. It is a very sarcastic piece and is mocking the post war Argentine attitude towards their defeat.
Lines like “savage Ghurkas” is refering to the Argentine myths that grew after the war to explain their loss.
“”Don't forget that the 10,000 Argentinian troops were only visiting the Falkland Islands on a peace keeping mission!!“”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0yeah and the Capitan of the Belgrano just happened to be steering in & out of the exclusion zone for a bit of fun... he got bored back in port one day and decided to go play Chicken with the Royal navy.
Like you do... when at war....erm, sorry, when partaking in “peaceful resolutions”
You can see why Argentina is in such a state with these people who are irrational, unable to face facts and live in some alternative reality.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0I mean what hope do the Argentine people have?
Mikhail Gorbachev named Thatcher as the one person who engineered the end of the Cold War .
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentine Senate calls her a war criminal for resisting the aggression , and ultimately causing the downfall of , a military dictatorship they claim to despise .
Miopic low lives , the lot of them .
That's rich, they never fought the Gurkhas, they ran away. Short on courage, strong on common sense, that was them!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0again, argentinas views on UK matters are completely irrelevant and that includes The Falklands, and the sinking of the Belgrano actually saved countless Argentine lives as this was the death knell to argentinas invasion farce and lead to the removal of Argentinas dictatorship thus saving even more lives which would have been thrown out of planes. Where is the gratitude??
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0SELF-DETERMINATION.........Lets rejoice with that news!
“”“Ernesto Alonso, president of the National Commission of Argentine former Malvinas Combatants said that contrary to many statements praising her, ‘Thatcher did not contribute at all to peace in the world’.”“””
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0look, if Gorbachev says she did, she did.
end of.
Whislt the lawmakers here are reflecting on the Faklands, they might give better attention on how to instigate stable and democratic institutions in their own country, instead of encouraging the opposite in fruitless avoidances and propaganda..
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0@27
Apr 10th, 2013 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0“let's rejoice at that news.”
Like it!
Poor poor Argentina ALWAYS THE VICTIM
Apr 10th, 2013 - 10:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0What has Cristina Kirchner actually achieved that has made any impact on the world ?
Apr 10th, 2013 - 10:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Can we have a question on Architecture in the Early Renaissance period? That one is easier to answer!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 10:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Belgrano was a legitimate target.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0We've had these discussions before. What a bunch of sooks these RGs are.
My question is :-
Why didn't the Conqueror sink the two escorts as well?
@34 “Why didn't the Conqueror sink the two escorts as well?”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Didn't they run (sail) away leaving their own injured soldiers to die in the water?
These people are so dirty, their statements almost squarely support the Junta's actions.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thatcher exposed their weakness and stupidity, and I hope Cristina gets the same severe humiliation from wherever it may come.
Trejo says his organization is pressing Foreign Minister Héctor Timerman to file charges over war crimes against Argentina during the 1982 Malvinas War.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are Argentines the thickest people in the World?
30,000 dead...at least. And the end of the Galtieri regime came about how ?????????? Count your blessings brothers and sisters, because God only knows what your country would be like had it not been for Agrentine defeat in the Falklands war.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0They claim the junta would have gone anyway, I am not so sure, just has I am not so sure that the junta would have stopped at the islands, after all nothing is so sweet as success! My personal opinion is that the junta would have turned their sights on Chile.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Come on then bring it on. Lets's have a war crimes investigation and let the rest of the world have a good laugh instead of just us priveleged few.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0I suppose the Bismark sinking was a war crime as it was sailing to a home port in France.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0When a warship has left port it's not on a fishing trip it is a legitimate target. End of story.
Best line in the movie:
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcBkvr_PGaY
@41, Even if a vessel is in port it is still a legitimate target:
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Legitimate military targets include: armed forces and persons who take part in the fighting; positions or installations occupied by armed forces as well as objectives that are directly contested in battle; military installations such as barracks, war ministries, munitions or fuel dumps, storage yards for vehicles, airfields, rocket launch ramps, and naval bases.”
Geneva Convention - Article 52:
“In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage”.
SINK IT!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 11:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Belgrano had special 15” shells, when they exploded, they showered the enemy with rose petals and pretty poseys. Ffs it was a warships in the area to do what warships do, engage the enemy. Unfortunately for her and her crew, the enemy detected her and fired first. If they can not cope with that, perhaps they should disarm their navy. Whoops what am I saying, they already have.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Belgrano would have been a legitimate target if it was sat in port.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If argies didn't want casualties, they wouldn't have started a war.
Idiots.
'Margaret Thatcher’s funeral will have a Falklands War theme, Downing Street announces'
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-funeral-will-have-a-falklands-war-theme-downing-street-announces-8567251.html
still banging on about the belgrano? who started the war again? The exclusion zone was set up to keep innocent parties out of it. it didn't say anything outside it wouldn't be attacked, infact the argie mainland was a legitimate target.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina spouting about economics! is this a joke?
The law makers and governemt of argentina are a joke and I cant understand their constant bull shit, cant they see how stupid and thick they are? a nation in depression crying all the time about something they have never owned, its very sad.
Their veterans constantly moaning aswel, they shouldn't have volunteered then should they, fecking girls!
I have to chip in with a few minor points.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12 If you read through some of this http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1982FALKLANDS.htm you can work out the actual number of troops that argieland sent. It's not as though they didn't have any idea of the available defence troops. Their first action was to raid Moody Barracks. It was just a “miscalculation” that they didn't realise that one “Naval Party” was handing over to another. So there were actually 80 Royal Marines, not 40. And, if you agree my addition, the argies sent 66,000 troops to overcome them! That must be a real tribute to the Royal Marines.
@23 As I recall recently (last year) released information, the Belgrano was actually INSIDE the exclusion zone and headed for a rendezvous point also INSIDE the exclusion zone in order to take part in a pincer movement around the Islands. Was it not in 1994 that the then argentine government agreed that the sinking was a legitimate act? Did the captain of the Belgrano also not say that it was a legitimate act? And who would know better?
@32 A lot of people now have tinnitus!
@34 Probably a couple of reasons. HMS Conqueror was armed with Mark 8 and Tigerfish torpedoes. She fired 3 at the Belgrano, two of which hit and exploded. One is understood to have hit one of the escort destroyers, ARA Hipolito Bouchard but failed to detonate. There is no information of what torpedoes remained aboard. There were some doubts about the Tigerfish torpedo. The two argie escorts, Hipolito Bouchard and Piedra Bueno, were possibly capable of 34 knots whilst HMS Conqueror had a submerged speed of 28 knots. We may safely assume that the argies were running too fast.
@39 Was there not a “plan”, once the Falklands had been subjugated, sorry, “recovered”, to continue on and “recover” some islands in the Beagle Channel? Adjudicated by the then-pope and declared to be Chilean. Bit surprised that more of the world isn't argie. They only have to put a toe down and it's theirs!
Exactly, who planned to slaughter some 50-odd innocent marines sleeping at Moody Brooks? They were lucky nobody was home at that time!
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_invasion_of_the_Falkland_Islands:
Although there were no Royal Marine witnesses to the assault, British descriptions of the state of Moody Brook barracks afterward contradict the Argentine version of events. After the action, some of the Royal Marines were allowed to return to barracks to collect personal items. Major Norman describes walls of the barracks as riddled with machine gun fire and bearing the marks of white phosphorus grenades—“a classic houseclearing operation”.[8]
It's such a pussy attitude to whine about the sinking of the belgrano. it was a war ship in a war that we did not start.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Meanwhile your hospital ships were engaged in the conflict.
Which ship crossed the border of the exclusion zone twice ? Third time sunk . End of comment .
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think Gib was well out of the exclusion zone
Apr 10th, 2013 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/24/gibraltar.falklands
One of the Argentinian admirals who sent his country to war with Britain over the Falkland islands has admitted that he dispatched a team of saboteurs to sink a Royal Navy ship in Gibraltar.
Admiral Jorge Anaya, a former military junta member who commanded the Argentinian navy at the time of the war, said he expressly ordered the mission. It was foiled by Spanish police hours before the team planned to attach limpet mines to a British ship.
Then they took them all out for lunch and put them on a plane back to BA.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Civilised these Spanish!
It seems there is now a proposal to rename Port Stanley as either Port Margaret or Port Thatcher. An idea backed by British MPs and apparently attracting considerable support on the Falkland Islands. Wouldn't that be a good? Argies will be able to see her name every time they look at a map. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306572/Thatcher-tribute-Will-Falkland-Islands-capital-Port-Stanley-Port-Margaret.html
Apr 10th, 2013 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And just look, there's already a “Thatcher Drive”!
My guess is they'll be naming one of the new Destroyers or something after Thatcher soon.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That way she can watch over the Falklands all the time.
They keep going on about something which was a legit act of war, ie the sinking of the Belgrano.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even Hector Bonzo agreed with this in every interview. This was even before what has now on the last few years, become public knowlage.
Excellent definition of violence Lady.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Thatcher is the symbol of aggression, destruction and death,” said Deputy Alfredo Atanasof, a dissident faction of the ruling Peronist party. “But beyond the differences with Argentina, his death was a great loss to the UK”.
“Unfortunately, the impunity that had been in the 31 years after the war was due to the fact that our leaders have the courage to make him pay for their criminal actions, when in the UK itself public consultation was accusing her of being a criminal war, as demonstrated in the ”Sink the Belgrano 'documentary directed by Federico Urioste for Channel 4 (London)“
Mercopress says:
The order, no doubt, was in charge of Margaret Thatcher, but declassified documents and testimonies of Argentine naval officers are clear evidence that the ”Belgrano” was clearly a diversion offensive.
This totally wrong. It is shown that the sinking of the cruiser General Belgrano was a war crime. Evidenced by the fact that he was attacked when he was back to the mainland and outside the exclusion zone that the British themselves had imposed.
In the UK they are celebrating his death.
Injured and arrested in the street celebrations over the death of former British Prime Minister
www.clarin.com/mundo/Heridos-detenidos-celebraciones-callejeras-britanica_0_898110331.html
'Thatcher was ... the poll (sic) bearer of ‘neo-liberal economic policies’.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This Argentinian politician, Senator Daniel Filmus, president of the Foreign Affairs committee, means 'standard-bearer',
but fails to understand that 'liberal' (neo- or otherwise) means something quite different to 'Conservative'.
A generation ago, Baroness Thatcher redefined the meaning of Conservatism,
and established during her terms of office a distinct right-of-centre alternative to the revolutionary socialism that was rife in the UK and spasmically destroying British society and the economy of the four nations at that time.
In extremis, polar position must be adopted;
thus a revolution of the far left must be met with a reactive (re)positioning to the right (She did not view this as reactive).
Similarly, an invasion must be met with repulsion, and there is no such thing as 'half a war'. Argentina was immensely lucky that a quick victory ensued and that the war was not taken to their capital nor the country effectively blockaded by sea.
To get back to my message ...
The tag 'neo-liberal' means nothing to a Brit in the 21st century; indeed, it means different things in Argentina and the USA!
Today in the UK all political parties are centist; socialism does not exist, nor the right wing version of conservatism.
All are 'liberals' now, but not of your 'neo' variety.
I see Ms Kircher (Closet nazi) is up to it again, her country owes billions of dollars to the international community and banks. Her economy is diving faster than a stuka dive bomber!!!!!! so lets go on about the Falklands again, now old Maggie is gone...... People are moaning about the Belgano ? what about the sinking of the coventry, sheffield etc?????, were the argies going to drop peace messages and flowers ... They were hell bent on waging a full scale war on peaceful defenceless islanders, for which they had a bloody nosebleed!!!!!!!!!!!! if it had been not the islands, the argies would have started a war on Chile or any of her neighbours!!!!!!!!!!! FACT
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Slightly OT but I was reading an article about the escalating willy-waving by Kim Jong-un. A former spy for North Korea - now living in South Korea - described NK as a cult, not a nation. They are fed a daily diet of misinformation from birth.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is a bit of a stretch to compare Argentina with NK but it does help to understand why so many have such a skewed version of the Falklands War and the Falklands in general. If a child is told a version of events by everyone around them, especially people they trust and depend on, they believe it. If they are fortunate enough to get a decent education and are taught to think freely and judge all of the evidence, they may reach their own conclusions. Sadly, I don't think that unbiased education is available to the majority of Argentines.
I spent a few days with friends in Mendoza. One, is a teacher from BsAs, and she is a lovely lady but her knowledge on just about every topic is abysmal. In particular her knowledge of the history of her own country. Still, we were there to relax and enjoy a few days of fun and she was good company. Though I always leave her confused and questioning everything when I have opened her eyes a little.
The moral of the story is don't go to war with Britain, don't steal British sovereign territory, don't hold its residents hostage, don't threaten her, don't send war ships if you don't want war.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 02007 - May 2nd, in an interview with the Clarin newspaper, Hector Bonzo, Captain of the Belgrano in 1982, denies that the sinking of his vessel was a war crime;
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ It was an act of war. The acts of those who are at war, like the submarine's attack, are not a crime ... The crime is the war. We were on the front line and suffered the consequences. On April 30, we were authorised to open fire, and if the submarine had surfaced in front of me I would have opened fire with all our 15 guns until it sank.”
In his own words - it was not a war crime. It was a war!
@61
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please show me how British and American education is unbiased.
For geez sakes you teach your children Creationism over Evolution (not even “equals”), and that the Iraq war was legitimate and one of liberation. That's in British and American textbooks.
You are in fact the two most brainwashed societies on the planet, because you actually believe you are the only countries that do not need to question their government, because you think you are more “moral and less corrupt” thus they must be working for your own good.
I sincerely hope your mentality keeps up. It's already lead you half way down the drains since your governments abuse you financially with massive scams and with ridiculous wars since they know you won't do anything about it, or even question it.
“This totally wrong. It is shown that the sinking of the cruiser General Belgrano was a war crime. Evidenced by the fact that he was attacked when he was back to the mainland and outside the exclusion zone that the British themselves had imposed.”
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raul. Your own admirals have admitted that this was not a war crime. There is nothing you can argue about this.
The UK government had even informed Argentina beforehand that you would still be attacked outside of the exclusion zone. Argentina even sent troops to Gibraltar to attack the Royal Navy.
Don't start a war if you cant bare to loose people.
@64 troll????
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Toby, or is it, Sussie?? I can't keep you troll-popes straight!
“You are in fact the two most brainwashed societies on the planet, because you actually believe you are the only countries that do not need to question their government, because you think you are more “moral and less corrupt” thus they must be working for your own good.”
Actually, we DO feel we need to question our governments and we do so.
They know we will question them AND that they are accountable to US.
There are mechanisms in place to question and audit their actions - it is all open to public debate. Nobody is condemned by the government for being “unpatriotic” for doing so, either, like some countries.
Additionally, we have free elections, open to public scrutiny, 'vote-buying' is outlawed. In the US, Pffice of the President is limited to 2 terms, there is option to change the Constitution to allow anything else, no matter how many judges are intimidated, as in another country I can think of.
In the UK, the Queen can dissolve Parliament and force an election of the Prime Minister and his party commit grossly unpopular acts.
Military Juntas and Dictatorships, “President for Life” etc., do not happen here.
When do you vote for CFK's third term???
Boludo, Sussie
La Nacion- and Gordo1 @5- have curious definitions of 'savage' and 'civilised'. The Gurkhas are 'savage' for unspecified reasons; armed forces that kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered tens of thousands of civilians are 'civilised'.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0THE SINKING OF THE BELGRANO.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have always thought that the decision taken by thatcher, in reference to the sinking of the belgrano, which was out of the exclusion zone and sealing away from the islands, in direction to the mainland was a war crime.
However i could know last year that in the end of april of 1982 thatcher's government had changed the roles, and notified about that new decision. So, since that moment i started to have doubts about wether the sinking of the belgrano can be considered or not like a war crime.
The point is that none government had taken the case to court, and there wasn't any investigation by justice.
Anyway, beyond the sinking of the belgrano is a war crime or not, what is inquestionable is that the decision was a clear signal that for thatcher's government none negotiated solution was posible, but the solution had to be military. Because it was the only one way to save her miserable and pathetic government.
If thatcher was so interested in protecting the islanders from the a fascist regimen, which provoked terrible violations to human rights, she could have sent a huge permanent militar mission to the islands, in order to avoid the islanders to be victim of any of the abuses that junta committed in the mainland to our people, however that decision didn't implicate a war. None of the two countries respected resolution 502 finally. Before the sinking of the belgrano there were conversations, but everything changed after thather's decision. The criminal junta that roled argentina was so ignorant and houghty that thought that the u. k. would never go to a war for the islands, they thought that britain would was going to accept a negotiated solution, this is evident that they didn't interpret correctly thatcher's politic moment of 1982.
Both governments used this cause in order to save their miserable politic ambitions, and unfortunatelly both politicians died. Perhaps they must have already met in hell.
Hmmmm,
Apr 10th, 2013 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0no reply from the “Troll-Pope” Toby, or is it Sussie?
Too difficult for her, I guess.
GAME SET MATCH!!
sorry “Troll-Pope ”, you're not up to it!!
LOL
Axel
Apr 10th, 2013 - 03:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can be sure of one thing, had Thatcher not fought back, she would have not got my vote in that election.
@70... But the Junta sure got Raul's & Axel's ilk's vote in the street by acclamation.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0People Opposed to the Junta (POJ1): Gosh the Junta is bad.
POJ2: Yes, we oppose them.
POJ1: Are there more of us than them.
POJ2: Yes. Of course. They are a minority, most of Argentina opposes them.
POJ1: Good, I can sleep at night then knowing that we oppose them throwing people out of airplanes, forced adoptions and torture. So do you want to go to the club or movies tonight?
POJ2: No I gotta pick up my mom from a protest about the disappeared.
POJ1: OK whatever.
Junta: Hey everybody, we got the Falklands back with no “rancour” whatsoever. Now we can push them from airplaines, torture them and kill them and maybe then we can nab a piece of Chile and do the same to them -- you know the same way we do it to you! Whatdyathink?
POJ1 & POJ2: YEAAAAHHH JUNTA! X-More Years (where X means as many as you darn well please as long as you throw us bones like that!)
POJ3: Uh guys, the VOA and BBC world services says that they put up a fight and they aren't happy with this.
POJ1 & POJ2: TRAITOR!
Un f*****g believable. If this is their former politicians statement , God help them.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can an Argie define the word “ WAR ” Did we start it? No but MAGGIE finished it. It is lucky that the UK did not raise Argentina to the ground. It was only the USA that asked MAGGIE not to annialate Argentina. In my opinion we she have annexed it, ( colonised it just like the Spanish did ) It would be a sight better off than now.
These arg tards seem to think the exclusion zone was like a child's game of tag. Once outside they could shout base and the Royal Navy could do nothing. Wrong - the exclusion zone was for the benefit of neutral vessels to beware. The arg tard Navy was a legitimate target the moment it left its base in argieland.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 061 ElaineB
Apr 10th, 2013 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's a bit much to compare Argentina with NK but helps explain why so many people have a skewed version of the Falklands War and the Falkland Islands in general.
You yourself are responding to your own contradictions. You sure you were taught to think freely? You sure showed you all the evidence? You hear other bells? Could it be that you have a skewed view of the Falklands War? Did you ever stop to think that is so aligned as to which you criticize?
Do not you have brainwashed as those you criticize?
Do not get me wrong and I say these words with great respect to your person.
Beyond your beliefs and political ideas and your vision of the world that are completely legitimate, your arguments are very egocentric typical English colonialism and imperialism. Already a fan of your thoughts too. You lack self-criticism. Never forget that you can be wrong.
But their knowledge on almost any topic is abysmal. In particular his knowledge of the history of his own country.
It means if a praise or an insult. Anyway is a lack of education and great respect whiten your friends Mendoza personal situations this forum, while the possibility of being attacked to defend themselves.
Although I always leave everything to his confused and questioning when I open my eyes a bit.
I think you are confused. You have to open your eyes and understand, understand that nobody is perfect. You treat your friends like Mendoza of an inferior race. I imagine how they would react if Mendoza friends find out what you really think because you enjoyed their friendship and hospitality.
Excuse my boldness. I'm not one to judge. You're really smart and flaunts this virtue in their comments. Based on that intelligence to judge others.
But you lack something that is essential and necessary. That is the wisdom and humility.
That unfortunately is going to take its toll at some point in your life.
God help you and Have a nice day.
Face1354@hotmail.com
@68 axel arg
Apr 10th, 2013 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Resolution 502 3rd April 1982.
Determining that there exists a breach of the peace in the region of the Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas),
1. Demands an immediate cessation of hostilities;
2. Demands an immediate withdrawal of all Argentine forces from the Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas);
3. Calls on the Governments of Argentina and the United Kingdom to seek a diplomatic solution to their differences and to respect fully the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
1 and 2 were ignored by Argentina, therefore 3 was not possible - Simple!
Alex: here is you at comment @61 (Apr 10th, 2013 - 02:50 pm) in this thread
Apr 10th, 2013 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/08/iron-lady-will-receive-ceremonial-funeral-with-military-honours-at-st-paul-s-cathedral
“In the case of thatcher, if she had been really the great democrat, as she's considered by many people in this forum, she could have broken the relations with arg., in order to avoid any discusion about sovereignty, untill arg. recovers the democracy. In my opinion, her behavior during 1982 was as despisable and repudiable as galtieri's.”
This is you here in this thread at @68 (Apr 10th, 2013 - 03:37 pm) Not even an hour after that.
“Anyway, beyond the sinking of the belgrano is a war crime or not, what is inquestionable is that the decision was a clear signal that for thatcher's government none negotiated solution was posible, but the solution had to be military. Because it was the only one way to save her miserable and pathetic government. ”
Once again, was the UK to negotiate with the illegitimate Junta (after an invasion when the Islanders were at unquestionable risk) or just stop talking to the illegitimate Junta (before they invaded which would also be a provoke them to justifiably invade) until they became a liberal democracy? (And no, the Junta invading the Falklands would no more miraculously change the hearts of Galtieri et al into liberal democrats any more than tossing virgins into volcanos would make poi taste good.)
I'm getting dizzy.
Even more dizzying is your continued implicit acceptance via your “complex” “contradictions” that the Junta's presence in the Islands. placing the Islanders at risk, was an acceptable thing that could “wait” for the same ineffective diplomacy while in Argentina proper, you insist (correctly) that they were an illegal government. That's like saying that Hitler/Saddam had no right to rule Germany/Iraq but it was ok to stand on the necks of the Poles/Kuwaitis.
It was war. The Belgrano was snaking in and out of the exclusion zone. The Junta was vicious and was responsible for the deaths of 30,000 Argentine's. The Falklands are British - because that's what the inhabitants want. Get over it.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina put theirs and our brave British men in harms way, any deaths on both sides lay fair and square at Buenos Aires doorstep, The Belgranos fate would have been very different if it wasnt sent on a seek and destroy mission.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All Hail.....“The Conqueror” the stick that beat argentina and undoubtly turned the conflict, leaving them bitter and frothing at the mouth forever more..... :)))))
“'I can confirm that white flags are flying over Stanley, the Argentines have surrendered - Bloody marvellous',
14 jun 82,Major Bill Dawson, Ghurka Battalion.
Mission......”GREAT SUCCESS”
The exclusion zone was not for the Argentine belligerents it was for international commercial and fishing companies to keep clear.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A warship is a warship and the argies started the war. Oh, sorry it wasn't you lot was it, it was the bad, bad Junta: how silly of me OR you.
No real choice is there?
If it had been left to a great many of us at the time we would have flattened BsAs, the seat of the war as any defending force is entitled to do to emasculate the belligerents.
The only mistake Baroness Thatcher made during the war was to listen to “Ray-Gun Ronnie Reagan” when he pleaded with her not to totally destroy the Junta and to leave them some dignity. BIG, BIG mistake and the Falklands are paying for it now.
But it will come to pass if TMBOA has her way.
“She was associated to an economic model that caused great harm and pain” said former Foreign minister Caputo
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0?
“At international level she was associated to a moment of history where an economic model was predominant that caused great harm and pain to society”.
Apr 10th, 2013 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, that was Perón.
Well, the trolls spit their venom, but they lost this round, agsin
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raul & Axel,
Apr 10th, 2013 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You pair are so full of it.
Diddums, dry your eyes, Princess.
lf you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
All above phrases relate to you whinging malvinistas.
lf you don't like defeat, & you were defeated, then don't start a war.
Fini
now sinking a warship in times of war is a war crime? only in Argentina i guess. the TEZ was primarily to inform neural vessels there was a war going on. Enemy warship is still an enemy warship. if it was worried about getting sunk it should have stayed out of the conflict
Apr 10th, 2013 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She liberated the Malvinas/Falklands from the Junta,soon the Junta was gone. Britain was well aware of what slaughter and torture that the the Junta was capable of ,did anyone think they would leave the Islanders to that fate?and in a way she liberated Argentina from those terrible days.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0@85 toxic
Apr 11th, 2013 - 07:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Good post!
Listen you dumb wit trolls saying she was sailing away from the Falklands. BULLSHIT she was zigzagging so one minute she was away from the Falklands 10 mins later she alters course to starboard and would be heading towards them. Standard ASW procedures. Her base course however was towards the islands so get over it. Conquerer was tracking Belgrano and her escorts for days and they didn't have a scoobie she was there.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel Arg : QUOTE “Both governments used this cause in order to save their miserable politic ambitions, and unfortunately both politicians died ” End QUOTE.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me add to your little conspiracy . Dennis Thatcher was in the same masonic lodge as Massera Galtieri and Prince Philip, and they all plotted the war together . Massera filled the crew of the Belgrano with known opponents of the regime , officers AND sailors , and then gave the co -ordinates of its course to the Royal Navy so they could sink it . Why do you think the other two ships left ?
In return , the Argentine air force sank the Sir Galahad because it was full of Welsh Guardsmen . The actual losses that day were over 12,000 ( all communist trades unionists from the mines in Wales ) , they are buried in secret graves in South Georgia , together with 6,000 gurkhas . The families are paid money in secret to keep quiet .
Argentina never lost the war , Menendez was paid U$S10 million in secret a swiss bank account to surrender 5 minutes before the British were going to surrender to him , that's why Jeremy Moore flew to Stanley IN SECRET in a helicopter that he piloted himself . Part of the deal was that every officer over in the Argentine forces was to be given money , plastic surgery and a house in Miami or Europe to escape . The Videla you see in the trials on TV ? He's really a double . Galtieri lives in Newmarket where he trains racehorses , Margaret Thatcher married him after Dennis died. Astiz changed his name to the Duke of Sussex and Massera owns Napoli FC ( that's why Marradona played there ) . The new Pope ? He was elected because he is a medium , and speaks directly to Peron, which is why Cristina went to see him . Peron had a message for her , but he won't tell her , so she is holding the Bergoglio family hostage till he does .
Christ , don't you know ANYTHING ????
@88 UP: You forgot to add the Ickelicious part about the reptilian humanoids who include Elizabeth 2.0.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course it would just be easier all around if Argentina would swallow the bitter pill of reality and simply own up to the war that it continues to celebrate in coins and medals instead of pointing fingers to everyone for finishing the war they started and gladly cheered on knowing full well what the broader implications of a Junta victory would have meant for the Islanders and more importantly, themselves.
68 axel ar
Apr 11th, 2013 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Excellent reasoning.
I recommend watching “sink the Belgrano” by Federico Urioste
http://www.revistacriterio.com.ar/cultura/hundan-al-belgrano/
81 British
“Internationally is associated to a point in history where a dominant economic model was the one that caused great damage and pain to society.”
No, that was Peron.
What Dante Caputo said is strictly true. Margaret Thatcher caused great damage and pain in society.
Ernesto Alonso, president of the National Commission Malvinas Argentinas fighters earlier said that unlike many statements praising his “Thatcher did not contribute at all to peace in the world.”
“Thatcher is the symbol of aggression, destruction and death,” said Deputy Alfredo Atanasof, a dissident faction of the ruling Peronist party.
Juan Peron was elected democratically Argentines and the vast majority of the Argentine people that I do love him for social justice, economic independence and political sovereignty. A Muller Juan Perón you book because it's political and economic colonialism UK.
Always wanted to enslave England Argentina. We demonstrate the four English invasions 1806-1807-1833-1845. Besides the economic subjugation imposed on us in much of the 19th and 20th century. Especially in the infamous decade and patriotic fraud.
Whenever the Argentine people will be grateful Juan Peron and Evita Peron
83 lsolde
If you do not like defeat, and they were defeated, then start a war.
Fini
This is the argument by which the people of the forum criticizes you and call you pathetic. The conflict is not over and more relevant than ever. Also keep betting on the war, ie by violence and death.
Give up hatred and resentment. Spit up and will turn against you.
89 GFace
Still equivocándote. The Board is well liked by the struggle of the 30,000 missing. The Falklands conflict is a snowball that is getting bigger and more and more and crushing end to colonialism and imperialism English. One has only to world public opinion to realize this.
According to David Icke , a spaceship crash landed on the Falklands about 100,000 years ago and descendants of its crew took penguin form . They hold all the secrets of the universe , and this is why Queen Cristina MUST have those Islands .They may look like simple Rockhopper and King penguins to you and me , but they have dark powers , including the ability to turn their eggs into solid gold and their piss into crude oil , which is why the Kelpers are so rich and refuse to negotiate with Argentina . MPA is not a British base at all , it's a docking station for UFO's .The crews live on a diet of raw ilex . The kelpers , who have been addicted to dulce de leche and mate since 1982 , have tried to be taken over by Argentina, but the penguins keep finding out and banishing their negotiators to universities in Britain . Recently they conducted a fake ballot , forcing the humans to vote to stay under the protection of the UK . Argentina sent the messiah Fernando Zylberberg to the Islands , but the penguins caught him and tried him before anyone had even got out of bed . He has not been heard of since and is believed to be driving a taxi in Karachi .
Apr 11th, 2013 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Every now and again the penguins punish Argentina . Nothing that has ever gone wrong in Argentina is their fault .....
It's those pesky penguins .....
GFACE. RAUL.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raul: Thank you. I already watched hundan el belgrano in many oportunities.
GFACE: I just answered you 10 minutes ago i think, about what you express in your comment, but i did it in a comment from another article, you'll see it.
I saw it and it is still the same tail chasing through the broader dysfunctional Malvanista Metanarative.
Apr 11th, 2013 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So now she should have “militarized” the south atlantic before the invasion (or we could likewise play the “Maggie Knew” and add it to “Bush knew” and “FDR knew” crap but I don't want to make Usurping Pirate feel like he's being boxed in). And of course we are treated to the false narrative that the Junta was disposed to negotiate (read: graciously let the UK donate the Islands to the Junta to guarantee their own hold on a grateful and cheering population) now that their jackboots were firmly planted in the islander necks. though you said that you thought she should just cut off any communications. The Belgrano was sunk “to send a message” not to take out a military target whose job was to promote invasive fascism and in the captan's own words was in warfighting mode and playing chicken with the “exclusion” zone which was for civilian shipping.
Thatcher's imagined motivations regarding domestic policy are irrelevant. Let's not be too polyannish and recognize that all leaders want to make sure that their country (and if possible their party) will endure any war they start (or in Thatcher's case, finish!) but if they were to have just handed over the islanders to YOUR fascist Junta (YOUR problem) then that would have meant the justifiable fall of her government (and that's me most likely speaking as a anti-Tory t if I were to be in the UK). The function of ANY government is to protect the rights of its citizens and other protectorates. YOUR Junta was a direct threat to a small community of people under UK protection.
Dude, Stop digging. You have no obligation to defend Argentina's continued fascist colonialist lust, the Junta and the rest of the indefensible chunky milk you seem so desperate to swallow down. And saying that that stuff in the British carton must taste worse (which it ain't) isn't going to make it taste any less... chunky.
Gface : These idiots are so wrapped up in Malvinas conspiracies that they are missing the big picture . Cristina has re-mortgaged the country once again , this time to the Chinese , who have just added a big farm full of lazy workers to their portfolio . They are rebuilding the rail infrastructure so they can get their produce to the ports quicker and will soon no doubt be selling them agricultural machinery as well . It's Roca -Runciman all over except the Chinese are no pussies and when the unions try to strike for more pay , The Chinese will come in waving bastones largos that will make Ongania's bastones look like magic wands , and all the ordinary people fed up with the anarchy that passes for government will actually welcome Chinese troops on the streets maintaining law and order . Cristina will go running to Obama who will be able to do eff all about it .
Apr 12th, 2013 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0You read it here first .
“We demonstrate the four English invasions 1806-1807-1833-1845.”
Apr 12th, 2013 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So you're actually still Spanish then?
@90 Raul,
Apr 13th, 2013 - 08:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0You're not making sense again Raul.
But then you seldom make sense.
Just in case you are in any doubt at all,
And l'll never get tired of telling you this,
The Falklands are OURS(i.e. NOT YOURS), get over it & move along.
Raul , instead of getting all bitter and twisted about a group of islands that are beyond your control , why don't you do something about your life that you CAN control , such as getting a job , raising a family , buying a house in a country , a car and perhaps taking up golf ?
Apr 13th, 2013 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After all , what's going to happen ?
Let us assume for one moment that the UK government handed the islands to Argentina ( which they can't obviously , because of the uranium deposits they found ) .
Are you going to be made a senator because you blogged on here ?
Are women going to find you more attractive because the Falklands are now the Malvinas ?
Would you even bother to go there ?
Bennies, the referendum you boast about has expressed your will to be british, so I wonder why you insist on commenting on subjects which are not of your concern.
Apr 14th, 2013 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This goes for you, Gordo:
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1572399-robert-smith-el-cantante-de-the-cure-festejo-la-muerte-de-thatcher
@97U/P
Apr 14th, 2013 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why did you let slip about the uranium deposits??
And as soon as they find out about the Bio-Kelp Fuel Plant the Mslvinistas will really latch onto the Falklands!
@99 Troy,
Apr 14th, 2013 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And the gold & copper, ooops shouldn't have said that.
@100
Apr 15th, 2013 - 12:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Isolde, what are you doing... ??
Now, at the very least, we can expect Toby on here telling us that they don't need us, because the superior Argentinian Nobel-winning scientific team has found the secret to Greek Fire, and 100% developed their own Perpetual Motion machine!!
They were going to find out sooner or later , when the US Marine battalion lands on West Falkland to set up security round the mine . Apparently , one or two have already gobbed off to Argentine tourists in Stanley , so it will appear in their papers at any moment .
Apr 15th, 2013 - 08:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Mine???
Apr 15th, 2013 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I thought the excavation was to hide the Nuclear Reactor from spies. Oops!
#97: Thank you for showing the real reason causing this conflict: economic issues! We were under the (obviously wrong) belief that all the fuzz was about self-determination of descendants of a former colony, about democracy and so on!
Apr 16th, 2013 - 01:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0@104 yaghan
Apr 16th, 2013 - 04:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0”#97: Thank you for showing the real reason causing this conflict: economic issues! We were under the (obviously wrong) belief that all the fuzz was about self-determination of descendants of a former colony, about democracy and so on!”
Yaghan
You really are a thick-headed, dumb-bunny, aren't you???
You must be new to La Campora - very amateur trolling.
My God, even sussie is more wily and clever than you.
:-)
Troy
Apr 16th, 2013 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Be gentle, he doesn't know what all the “fuzz is about”.
I think I feel a twist coming on....
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