MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Malvinas seminar in Argentina to teach education staff how to isolate the war from the sovereignty claim
An estimated 1.600 teachers and education students from all over Argentina are participating in a Malvinas seminar organized by the country’s Education ministry with the main purpose of “setting aside the war issue” from the main sovereignty claim. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesAgenda points: 1,2,3,4, etc....
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0“falsifying history is in fact one of the characteristics of the (Argentine) national culture”
“la falsificación de la historia en sí es un rasgo de la cultura nacional”.
Who are they saying committed atrociousness?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0About time, its very important to bring your brainwashing methodologies up to date Argentina.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0No doubt the lessons will now start with the premis that on 2 nd April 1982, Colonial Britian, led by the warmonger Margaret Thatcher, started an unprovoked war with Argentina by invading their beloved Malvinas, thereby preventing he peaceful handover of the islands to Argentina.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0How do the Argentinians expect to have discussions about the Falklands/Malvinas with others,if they dont have meaningful discussions among themselves first?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Look in to my eyes! look into my eyes!
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0CLICK!
The two-day seminar “Teaching Malvinas: memory, sovereignty and democracy”.....
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Two days?! I could do it in 10 secs:
Malvinas - no such thing
Memory - 2 months of unhappy memories in 82
Sovereignty - not Argentine
Democracy - alive and well on the islands
we're all basically watching the rise of the First Argentine Reich aren't we?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0its happening right in front of our eyes...
“setting aside the war issue”
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Aside from that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?
#10
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0I heartily agree with this. It's about time they were told the truth instead of the bullshit lies they inculcate into their young.
And the propaganda machine keeps turning, uncle Joseph would be proud.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Guess who will be leading the class : http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/16/the-argentine-joke-and-cristina-fernandez-as-pinocchio-headlines-of-brazil-s-influential-magazine-veja
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well I suppose that since the propaganda machine has been failing lately, it's time for the brainwashers to be brainwashed again, with even more outrageous lies and claims.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lets forget the deaths of 1000 people in living memory and go back to made up events in 1833.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0But making sure we forget the key points about 1833...
No usurption
No civilians evicted
No Argentinians
Rape, murder, mutiny
No inheritance from Spain
Patagonian genocide and hypocrisy
pre-dated British claim..
lets forget all that and brainwash our children to “love the malvinas”
Seriously Argtards? Change the place names and this reads like something from the Pyongyang times.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://naenara.com.kp/en/periodic/times/index.php
lol
@15
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0True, but North Korea is actually capable of posing a threat.
Proves beyond all doubt that Argentina continues to screw up the minds of their children. They are about to change the Argentine thinking yet again from one of the Falklands belong to Argentina to that of The Oil and Fish around the Falklands belong to Argentina. This next generation of Kids will then go and attack the world that they are being deprived of their Monetary rights.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0What a pathetic lot they are . Why don't they just start telling the explain simple truth to their next generation how they invaded South America and stole the land from an original indigenous people. Then tell them how they have acted towards the Falkland islands people . Tell their kids the real truth about British Occupation and about the real history of the islands. The one before Argentina even existed.
Sadly though this will not happen so longs as plastic face and others like her are in control. Leaders like her are as uneducated and brained washed as they can get.
Argentine law makers are extremely worried of the success the Falkland delegation that recently toured Latin America had telling the real truth about our Home and they are now worried that their children will get to hear about it so they have to fast track the brain washing. What a sad lot they are.
“teaching malvinas” the ignorance is stammering.....
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0sounds like argentina wish to re-educate The Falklands to their way of thinking, hows that for democracy!
maybe all them resources would be better used as a think tank to pull argentine out of their economic sink hole.
As usual, lets forget the things we want to forget, typical Argies sweeping stuff under the carpet when no one looks. Eventually there will be a mountain of shit under the carpet, which can't be ignored.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0I wonder what BK would say about state propaganda in a 3rd world country?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 11:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0You can tell a lot about the Argentinean eduction system from this news story, know wonder there in soooo much trouble!.
Educating the communist way, they call it a Democracy?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 11:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Roll up, roll up - get your brains washed here ... cheap!
Apr 17th, 2013 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0I may be being a little too “British” here but I thought education was meant to teach in a factual way, not a fictional way.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fictional-Education = fed = Feducation, eat up kids yum yum
A message for Argentina for which it does not fit. A Democracy is a form of government in which all citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0Chair:
Apr 17th, 2013 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ Okay, We messed up in 82 so it is now up to you as educaters to airbrush our history. Suggestions please.”
Simply start by telling the truth to the children would be a start to get Argentina out of the mess it is in.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 12:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rgs committed atrocities against their own soldiers and it is right to remember this. But they appear not to be remembering the atrocities committed against Falkland Islands civilians. Napalm, torture and imprisonment of adults and children in inhumane conditions to name a few. Don't forget that.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 12:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rather like Germany insisting that the world decouple their claim on East Prussia, a good chunk of Poland and the Czech Republic and Slovakia from their actions in WW2. Oh wait. Even though one can argue that they have a far far better historical case than Argentina's vapor claim in the Falklands, they know better.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 12:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fast forward....year: 2313
Apr 17th, 2013 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Location....Venentina.....formally known as Argenzuela.
Subject; How to teach history of Venentina
“The seminar is in the framework of the 480th anniversary of the Islands usurpation and a look on these last few centuries which are becoming more independent from the Malvinas war issue, which takes the 1982 events as just one moment in the 480 years struggle, and which takes that chapter and separates it from the dictatorship”, said Minister Sileoni IXX.”
Nothing like airbrushing a war of colonialist conquest out of your history, blaming everything around it on Maggie Thatcher and then indoctrinating your children into believing a version of history that the rest of the worlds regards as completely untrue.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No doubt this next generation of kids will also be gobsmacked the Islanders speak English.... when the next, inevitable, dictator runs Argentina again and they invade “for the first time”. (again)
War? What war......no war around here.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In other news, irredentist German neo-nazis plan Alsace-Lorraine seminar to teach educators how to isolate the First and Second World Wars from the sovereignty claim on the former German provinces now part of France and insist that Reichsland Elsaß-Lothringen belong to Germany. Argentine Education minister Alberto Sileoni is expected to be a guest speaker. [Satire, of course, but so logical, some might mistake it for the truth!]
Apr 17th, 2013 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Chair:
Apr 17th, 2013 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Suggestions then?”
Representative for BA Schools District. “Mr Chair, can I suggest we start with a mass burning of None Argentinian books.”
Do they have books? Oh yes, fairy tales like Pinochio.!
Apr 17th, 2013 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“”Do they have books? Oh yes, fairy tales like Pinochio.!“”
Apr 17th, 2013 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not too mention the recent best-seller:
“What Patagonian Indians?”
'Other news today, the German Foreign Minister said that the Polish and Russian inhabitants living east of the Oder-Neisse line were planted populations, and that the territories should be returned to its rightful German owners.'
Apr 17th, 2013 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Meanwhile, in the real world...
'I take this occasion today to recall the “Charter of the Expellees” promulgated in Stuttgart on 5 August 1950. In this important Charter, the victims of expulsion formally renounced «all thought of revenge and retaliation. Our resolution is a solemn and sacred one, in memory of the infinite suffering brought upon mankind, particularly during the past decade.” This renunciation effectively broke the vicious circle of reprisal and counter-reprisal. The Charter also committed the expellees to work for the reconstruction of Germany and of Europe, which one day should be united. A remarkable document indeed.'
And this coming from an Ecuadorian! - http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Law_history/Ayalaenglish.shtml
@17 “What a pathetic lot they are . Why don't they just start telling the explain simple truth to their next generation how they invaded South America and stole the land from an original indigenous people. Then tell them how they have acted towards the Falkland islands people . Tell their kids the real truth about British Occupation and about the real history of the islands. The one before Argentina even existed.”
Apr 17th, 2013 - 02:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ah, but the people would never allow it. Remember the outrage when a map labeling the islands as British territory popped up in an Argentinian textbook.
The skills of Joseph Goebbels will, no doubt, have been studied in order to set up this seminar which will consist, of course, of the fairy tales and myths of which we are all aware.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When will these silly people start telling the truth?
Are these children made aware of the enormous investments made by British citizens in the modernisation of Argentina from the 1860s up to the 1920s?
BUT we must not avoid some very salient points. ““The seminar is in the framework of the 180th anniversary of the Islands usurpation and a look on these last few years which are becoming more independent from the Malvinas war issue, which takes the 1982 events as just one moment in the 180 years struggle, and which takes that chapter and separates it from the dictatorship”, said Minister Sileoni.” But the “war issue” is very important in the “sovereignty claim”. British sovereignty was never seriously disputed until 1982. But, by removing the “war issue”, you remove the “blame”. So the ordinary argie can be confirmed in his view that the war had nothing to do with “the people”. It was that wicked, alien “Junta” that landed, climbed out of their spacecraft and took over the peace-loving argieland. It also tries to evade a tiny little principle of international law. The one where “territory and other property remains with its possessor at the end of a conflict”. Which means that, in 1982, the whole matter of the Falkland Islands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands was settled. “Ah, no” they can say “that wasn't us. Nothing to do with the sovereignty claim. Cut that bit out.” But, in one respect, that is what 3 Falkland Islanders and 255 British servicemen died for. To end the sovereignty “dispute”. It is now beyond dispute. Why and how do these numbnuts come to believe that we're as thick as they are? So let's all remember. There is no “dispute”. It was settled in 1982. The Islands are British. In due course, they will become independent. But argieland does have one tiny recourse. Another war! Not that there is any possibility of them winning it.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As long as they don't start teaching them to strap dynamite and nails into their underwear before they pay a visit just let them get on with it. They are only preparing their ancestors for a lifetime of humiliation and distraction which is probably what they should expect anyway.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I suppose it must be harder to lie about the war than the sovereignty claim.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0in the meantime people in Argentina continue to struggle with everyday life, they die when it rains... Every year...
Apr 17th, 2013 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@23
Apr 17th, 2013 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'I may be being a little too “British” here but I thought education was meant to teach in a factual way, not a fictional way.'
In a normal country yes, but this is Argentina we speak about, a country where lies, deceit and corruption are the norm, at every level. I'm glad Merco ran this story, it's important to see the contrast between a standard western country and Argentina. Ultimately the RG people are responsible for their countries actions and current state, they voted for their Govt after all...
I found a GREAT article from the Balitmore Sun, well worth a read, it includes a bit about RG lies and corruption too at a personal level...
'Thatcher and the Falklands'
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-falkland-letter-20130417,0,778423.story
#43 Steve-33uk
Apr 17th, 2013 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-falkland-letter-20130417,0,778423.story
What sovereignty claim?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh you mean the baseless claim that the Argentine government is frightened to take to the ICJ because they'd lose their 'Great Malvinas Lie' distraction ploy.
The link was broken http://tinyurl.com/c58r3cc
Apr 17th, 2013 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Love the last sentence -
Since the Falkland Islands are located more than 300 miles of Argentina's coast, it makes about as much sense as the United States launching an invasion armada to take Bermuda based upon the fact that it was a British Colony when we gained our independence in 1783 and is only 600 miles off the coast of North Carolina.
@46/44... that's an awful lot of hassle when the Bahamas are only 50 mi off the coast of Florida.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unbelievable that in this day and age they are still brainwashing kids with false history when anyone who looks on the Internet can see the truth in just a few clicks.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just take the speech given by Minister Sileoni and substitute the word “ Malvinas ” with “ Beagle Channel. ”
Apr 17th, 2013 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Same brain washing, same audience, same intent.
Poisoning young minds.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0North Korea - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtp-70zQME
Argentina - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtp-70zQME
I assume these hapless kids get extra credit for informing on their parents if they stray from the party line. Perhaps rewarded with some “Las Malvinas son Argentinas” sweeties.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What a sad bunch of tossers producing this piece of garbage worthy of Goebbels - oh, wait a minute, was it produced by one of his acolytes who managed to scarper to Argentina in 1945 ?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I especially liked the non aggressive Super Etandard with the smiling child in the back and the three soldiers in 1982 battledress.
What is it the Argies always tell us, “we are a peaceful nation”
I lived 18 years in Argentina. The current falsely elected president (she paid poor people for their votes) and her closely-knit segment of Buenos Aires society known as “Negros de Mierda” (roughly: black-hearted trash) who parade themselves with fine dress and airs of superiority, are the exception in Argentina, where the majority of people are good, “sweet” in Latin parlance, honest and generous. The simple question is, when will Argentines and the rest of the world recognize that the 'King is Naked', that Argentina has a dictatorship, not a democracy, and that were it not for the clout of present-day international opinion and surrounding political brakes, we would surely see the rise of the Fourth Reich, directed by Nazi-hearted Cristina Fernandez and her cowering henchman.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have talked with myriad good Argentines. They are embarrassed, appalled and frightened. Within my earshot and several times to me, good, decent, well-educate people on the streets of Buenos Aires have wistfully shaken their heads, exclaiming “If only someone would shoot her, if only we had a Congress that would remove her!
Porteños, a once thriving community with scruples, now breathe evil air. (”Porteños” are the one-third of the population of Argentina who live in the port city and capital, Buenos Aires.) Unless you have lived through the years of safely walking poorly-lit streets alone at 4 in the morning, seeing everyone within sight rush to aid a fallen octogenarian, received the patient and kind attention of an emergency-room nurse, a street policeman, fellow bus-rider, passing pedestrian or bank clerk in the time before the Kirchners, you haven't watched the slow spiritual and emotional rot permeate the once glowing city of Buenos Aires.
Today, as the Argentine economy and personal freedoms slide ever further from the bases of a healthy society, and you find yourself by chance conversing with an Argentine from another province, they appear as fresh, normal and healthy, in a city wh
Looking at the last run of comments I guess the Argie opposition have trotted of to school to get an update before they reply. Or maybe they are actually rewriting the school books with the recent run of truth printed.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Then again maybe they are not educated enough to actually understand what everyone else is talking about. Must be difficult for them not have a complete education in the first place.
Unbelievable - Education minister Alberto Sileoni states,
Apr 17th, 2013 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“setting aside the war issue” followed by
“Let us not forget that in 1982 the Argentine society...”
Contradictory, revisionist history - Sileoni should rename his title to Propaganda minister.
Where's this heading? ICJ or ...
Unbelievable this comes from a govt. minister, unless it's Pinocchio Argentinian government!
What he forgot to add, was his defence minister's comments from last year... Mount Pleasant preventing an invasion. Well done British Forces!
I wonder if the curriculum includes the well documented fact that Argentina gave up her claim on the Falkland Islands in the peace treaty ratified in 1850, as later confirmed by Argentine presidents Mitre and Sarmiento and vice president Paz in 1866, 1866 and 1869?
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- and it it not as if Rosas had forgotten all about the Falkland Islands, because it is also well documented that on 3 January 1838 he tried to sell the United Provinces of Rio de la Plata's claim on them if Britain cancelled the Barings Bank loan of 1824, which the United Provinces had defaulted on in 1828 (sounds familiar?) and that on 30 March 1841 Rosas again offered to abandon all and any claim on the Falklands if Britain cancelled the Barings loan to the United Provinces.
Thus, Rosas had not forgotten the Falkland Islands at the time of the peace treaty, but the present government has conveniently “forgotten” that Argentina gave up its claim more than a century ago.
Treaty of peace in international law 1836:
“The treaty of peace leaves every thing in the state in which it found it, unless there be some express stipulation to the contrary.
The existing state of possession is maintained, except so far as altered by the terms of the treaty. If nothing be said about the conquered country or places, they remain with the conqueror, and his title cannot afterwards be called in question. During the continuance of the war, the conqueror in possession has only a usufructuary right, and the latent title of the former sovereign continues, until the treaty of peace, by its silent operation, or express provisions, extinguishes his title for ever.”
Henry Wheaton: “Elements of international law: with a sketch of the history of the science”, Volume 1 & 2 (1836), p. 288 (p.646 in the .pdf)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hUAEAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22uti%20possidetis%22%20inauthor%3Ahenry%20inauthor%3Awheaton&pg=RA1-PA288#v=onepage&q=%22uti%20possidetis%22%20inauthor%3Ahenry%20inauthor%3Awheaton&f=false
This is actually quite a sad news story.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Children should be provided with “evidence” in their history classes, asked to analyse the strength of the evidence, and suggest conclusions which can be drawn.
No history class should be given a conclusion as a fait au complete and told to rubbish or ignore evidence that doesn't support the conclusion.
This is the very reason why I think the most valuable moment on these boards for me was when “Think” admitted that the Argentine National archives showed that the number of people who left the Falklands on January 6th 1833 was 59.
This piece of “evidence” is the keystone of the Argentine argument.
59 people, of which over 50 had only set foot on the islands 2-3 months earlier.
Students should be encouraged to ask how these 50 constitute
1) the original population
2) the Argentine population
3) the argentine authorities
All of which they have been labelled by Hector Timmerman.
Students should then be encouraged to look at some of the other evidence. The Spanish settlers vacating to Montevideo in 1811, the 1850 treaty, the 1880 war of the desert...and again see if these pieces of evidence support their claim.
Of course you can make a case for Argentine sovereignty, you could make a case for the moon being made of cheese...but what genuinely does the weight of evidence support.
When we teach our children critical thinking and analytical skills rather than dogma and propoganda, we are giving them something of value.
It's a shame.
@57 monkeymagic
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're so right, it's a shame. A country must confront its past, the good and the bad so as to make informed choices for the future. I wonder jf any discontented soul in that audience will be brave enough to make their voice heard, after all, the belief in the myth is not 100%.
Maybe that is the reason why so many adult Argentineans are in regular therapy. They find out the they have been lied to for decades.
Apr 17th, 2013 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is hard to eradicate ideals that have been inculcated from birth.
@57 @58 @59
Apr 17th, 2013 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My thoughts exactly
After Sunday nights tv program of Jorge Lanata, revealing the money laundering scandal of the Kirchners and the ongoing scandal, I said to a 62 year old Argentine what a mess in a Democracy and a Republic, the reply came straight back I was born in 1951 and have never lived in a democracy or a republic, here there is nothing, its all a fantasy they have robbed and stole from us all my life with impunity, It even took them 30 years to try and put in prison the last Military Junta, all now very old men who at the end of their lives could'nt care less about the prison sentences.
My nephew was watching the SkyNews Internet coverage of the Falklands Thatcher Memorial today.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 02:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0He checked the comments afterwards to add condolences and what did he find??
A nasty comment about Thatcher and the Falklands by “Timid Toby”.
“Their saviour? She didn't save anyone, she just sent other people to do her dirty work while she reaped all the accolade from Number 10.”
Of course, he did not say he was from Argentina.
Nephew sent a reply:
“He is a kid from Mendoza Argentina - he doesn't know why he hates Thatcher and the UK, as he has never traveled anywhere, but he always Trolls on the 'net”
A typical Argentine product of the Mendoza Education System.
God knows what else he is “learning” at school!!
You people overestimate Argentina's “brainwashing”.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 03:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0THIS is the biggest brainwashing of all time:
Europeans saying “we are so moral and good and decent”
http://mapcollection.wordpress.com/2012/06/19/colonial-africa/
That is the map of evil, murder, genocide, oppression, subjugation, deracination, turpitude, ignominy... 100% brought to you by the most evil perverted scum the evolution of life on Earth has produced: the EUROPEAN.
My Dear John;
Apr 18th, 2013 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Please do not make me laugh so hard.
Up until 1982, everyone here was informed by the Argentines that they in fact were special Europeans, and not Latin American.
Today they wish to bond with “ our Latino brothers and sisters, ” but only at a distance. A bit late, and obviously in the case of those that they owe, a bit suspect.
You can't deny that shameful map huh.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 03:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0@64 Toby teen troll
Apr 18th, 2013 - 04:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why call yourself “Timid Toby”?!
I don't think you have the courage of your convictions !!
:-D
@59 elaineB
Apr 18th, 2013 - 07:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0You bet. The indoctrination of their nation goes on and on.
The seminar is clearly mind washing. I doubt if Germany skips over its history in its school classrooms. Argentina is re-writing its history, they are saying 'Teach History but push the invasion to one side, say it wasn't us but a nation under the yoke of the Junta'. It's just like the schizophrenic Gollum. Sméagol didn't invade Precious islands it was the nasty Gollum.. Gollum Gollum.
Christ almighty the streets of Argentina thronged with happy people when the invasion took place.
#62 Brainwashing?! I don't think so. I was taught in school about both the good and bad parts of our and European colonial history. I distinctly remember the inhabitants of one particular European nation wiping out a good fraction of the indigenous population of an entire continent and replacing them with settlers. At some point later those settlers led an armed insurrection against the injustice with which their former homeland ruled them. Subsequently the many new nations of this continent continued their murderous rampage and annexation of land while every now and then kicking the sh*t out of each other.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 07:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0The difference between South America and Europe is that Europe, for the most part, acknowledges our colonial past and the terrible things we did (by people mostly long since dead). Some countries of South America have no such perspective and continue to carry on as if it was still the 19th Century while continuing to reap the direct benefits of the land their ancestors stole in recent history.
@64 JT “You can't deny that shameful map huh.”
Apr 18th, 2013 - 09:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0I have never denied that the UK and the rest of Europe have done shameful things from the past but we try and strive to learn from the past and not let this kind of thing happen again. You'll probably argue about the middle east now which is fair enough you are entitled to your opinion. In the middle east though you cannot deny the turmoil there. It's not really comparable to the situation in the Falklands though, the only turmoil there in the last 180 years has been in 1982. Britain is trying to live down it's past actions where Argentina is trying to emulate them.
#62
Apr 18th, 2013 - 10:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0I asked you this in a previous post but of, course, you did not reply.
I presume that your country allows immigration from Europe.
Correct ?
These are the lowest form of animal life according to you. Correct ?
When they arrive on your shores in this condition, when does the magical transformation occur to make them suddenly acceptable as “Argentinians”. Is it the air, water, or a religious epiphany that changes them from scum into the most perfect and blameless people on Earth ?
Your Pope seems to be happy in the Vatican - situated in Rome - a European city. Has he “sold out ” for personal gain ?
Your pal Dany, he has two passports, so like thousands of your countrymen, he must be 50% scum.
Please enlighten us on this matter.
@64 Yes, it's a terrible map. Most of that should have been red and yellow with the Spanish coat of arms, then it would have been okay, wouldn't it? It's also inaccurate because Imperial Germany's flag was black, white and red. There are still ethnic Germans in Namibia, but the Germans never sought to kill off the indigenous population.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentine (most probably of European descent) reading moral lectures to Europeans about African slavery?
http://www.columbia.edu/~ha26/afro-latino/blacks_in_argentina.htm
When songstress Josephine Baker visited Argentina in the 1950s she asked the biracial minister of public health Ramon Carilio, “Where are the Negroes?” to which Carilio responded, laughing, “There are only two – you and I.”
@70. Not to mention moral lectures from young master ”Saddam Hussein == Poland in WW2 the 3rd (or 13th or Whatever)”...
Apr 18th, 2013 - 10:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0The good people of Argentina one day will rise up and take back their country from the dictators . It is quite amazing how much hate the world has become when all it would take is for everyone to love thy neighbour to put it all right again.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@62 John Troll 3rd of whoever you are on this appearance! Very interesting map but this must be only representative of the 19th century as none of these “colonial” powers exercise power over Africa at this time - with the exception of your forbears from the Iberian Peninsular, Spain. Spain maintains two colonial enclaves in Morocco - Ceuta and Melilla.
Apr 18th, 2013 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Benny bunch:
Apr 19th, 2013 - 03:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0What is the “truth” you insist about all the time? Lt. Pinedo was a hidden spanish spy of some sort? Was there not an argentine garrison bombarded by the US on the islands? Your community does not consist of settlers sent to the islands to colonise just because they (the islands) were a good port for ships on their way to the South Pacific?. Is it reasonable to be proud to be considered second-class citizens of a government over 12000 miles away for the biggest part of your history?
You seem very critical about the destiny of the aboriginal peoples in Patagonia. Well, you should take into account that many british landowners paid for the ears and testicles of the Selk´nam tribesmen in Tierra del Fuego. Not many of you (if anyone) has complained about this.
The war caused victims on both sides. You seldom consider argentine servicemen, considering all of them to be the same breed of barbarians. Well, you are wrong. There was a recent meeting in Argentina of retired servicemen from both countries, and there was nothing but respect between old adversaries. Quite an example, isn't it?
@74yaghan
Apr 19th, 2013 - 05:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yaghan
You seem very mixed up. I suppose that's because of your government warped education/indoctrination as a child.
Spies???
Who said anything about that.
Pinedo left in 1833 taking with him the U/P garrison murderers and rapists that killed their commander of two months and raped his wife in front of their children.
Colonists, even those with Spanish names and origins, were permitted to stay, including your Antonio Rivero.
Many of them are the original ancestors of the people who live on the Falklands today.
There were no Indigenous people's on the islands before the permanent settlement of the Falklands in 1833.
Unlike Patagonia, but you killed them all off.
Until Argentina cowardly attacked the peaceful civilian population of 2,500 sheep farmers and fishermen in 1982, there were only 65 Royal Marines stationed on the Islands.
After the invasion, there was established a defence force so Argentina would not be tempted again.
The Falklanders are very proud people and take great pride not only in their heritage, but who they are as a self governing, self determining free people, today.
The UK, as in 1982, is pleased and determined to protect them.
“The same breed of barbarians” that started an undeclared war on the Falklands by trying to massacre sleeping British Marines in their barracks with machine guns and white phosphor bombs, herded women and children and the elderly around at gunpoint, imprisoned an entire community of families without adequate food and facilities, while they defiled their homes, defecated in the Post Office like animals, forced elderly people to serve them, left grenades in children's desks?? Those barbarians???
It could be argued that was the fault of your officers and the UK servicemen respected the RG ordinary soldiers. We treated them better than your officers, who were known to sexually abuse them and abandoned them.
The only victims were caused by your invasion.
Is any of this in your 'history' books???
@74 Yaghan
Apr 19th, 2013 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0”You seem very critical about the destiny of the aboriginal peoples in Patagonia. Well, you should take into account that many british landowners paid for the ears and testicles of the Selk´nam tribesmen in Tierra del Fuego. Not many of you (if anyone) has complained about this.“
I don't think that anyone on here has ever said that there aren't black spots in British history.
”The war caused victims on both sides. You seldom consider argentine servicemen, considering all of them to be the same breed of barbarians.”
Even as a little kid during the war I felt sorry for the Argentine conscripts. They were just normal lads that had been given guns, not given any training and told they were going on exercise in southern Argentina. Dad used to talk to a couple of them (priest and trainee doctor), they were young terrified and had no idea why they were there. They were expecting to be welcomed as heroes by an Argentine population subjugated by the British. Surprise surprise, they were lied to. The officers on the other had I had no sympathy for, they treated the conscripts like animals.
Some of the conscipts were schoolboys as young as 15 yrs who had been removed from boarding school by the army and were terrified that their parents did not know where they were. In general they are entitled to the same degree of respect due to any soldier who follows orders out of duty to his country. You Rgs would do well to remember that. However there were many amongst the Argentine soldiers who behaved in such a barbaric way that they appalled and terrified people here in the Falklands. That is not easily forgiven nor forgotten. The point is, Yaghan, that you should get over trying to portray your occupying forces as innocent heroes because they weren't. It was a dirty war for the time it lasted. You lost. You will never win again until you get your head out of the clouds and make an effort to develop a normal working relationship with us.
Apr 19th, 2013 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#77: Nor did they behave as sordidly as many of you describe. There were orders not to harm or bother the local population, and this was instructed at the very beginning. In fact, according to many reports, food and medicine supply was granted for civilians (even though it was lacking for some argentine troops), and goods were bought, not stolen by servicemen and journalist alike. There were some exceptions (noticeably Major Patricio Dowling, the former head of military police intelligence, who was later sent back to the continent), but you also have to recognise that some civilians (Terry Peck+, Vernon Steen, Trudy Morrison/McPhee, Tony and Alisa Heathman, Reg Silvey, Eileen Vidal) actively helped british troops. As far as I know, they were not prosecuted as spies (as they could have been). Instead, the Task Force attacked and sunk a fishing boat, the Narwhal, killing one sailor in the action. On what grounds? That it was a spyboat. True, but it was unarmed, and therefore unable to harm or respond to fire.
Apr 20th, 2013 - 02:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'd like to express my admiration for Terry Peck+, Vernon Steen, Trudy Morrison/McPhee, Tony and Alisa Heathman, Reg Silvey and Eileen Vidal.
Apr 20th, 2013 - 05:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0”You seem very critical about the destiny of the aboriginal peoples in Patagonia. Well, you should take into account that many british landowners paid for the ears and testicles of the Selk´nam tribesmen in Tierra del Fuego. Not many of you (if anyone) has complained about this.”
Apr 20th, 2013 - 06:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nor has Argentina - these are the British people that they regard as a model for the Falklanders under Argentine rule.
#79: You should start by sending flowers to Terry Peck's grave, then.
Apr 20th, 2013 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#80: Really? Are you aware of the following:
There is a city in Argentina which was co-founded by English families
Football, tennis, rugby, cricket, polo and golf was introduced by English settlers
The first Bishop of the islands lived in Ushuaia
There are Anglican churches in Argentina
An argentine president was of English descent?
Methinks these are a few constructive examples of interaction, don't you think?
@81 I'm aware of all of them, but so what? There are more people of British descent in the United States than there are in Bermuda, but that doesn't mean Bermuda should be given to the United States, even though it has strong ties to its larger neighbour - currency on par with the US dollar, TV stations affiliated to the US networks, shared use of the North American international dialling code +1, etc.
Apr 20th, 2013 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Similarly, there are more people of Dutch and French descent in Brazil than there are in Suriname and French Guiana, but Brazil doesn't seek to absorb them. Venezuela claims most of Guyana, though...
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/16/the-loneliness-of-the-guyanas/
I'm all in favour of Falklanders learning Spanish, and indeed, Portuguese, but not in favour of assimilating them into Argentine society, which is what annexation by Argentina would mean.
The Åland Islands in Finland have Swedish as their sole official language, because their distinct cultural identity is safeguarded through regional citizenship laws, even though Swedish is an official language in Finland itself, and Finland-Swedes are bilingual in both official languages.
Under Argentine law, the Falkland Islands are just part of an existing province, Tierra del Fuego. Even though it sought the recovery of Hong Kong and Macau, China never regarded them as simply parts of Guangdong Province.
I'd like to apologise for Britain introducing tennis to Argentina, as that's a poof's game.
@ 78 Yaghan
Apr 20th, 2013 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please do not lecture me about the history of my own country , especially if you are going to get the facts wrong. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to tell me that I should be grateful that fellow Falkland Islanders were not prosecuted for spying!! What did you expect us to do - just give up?
Now spit out your gum, sit up straight and take note. Argentine occupying forces behaved barbarically to Falkland Islanders and to their own conscripts. Do yourself a favour and accept that anything else is a lie.
#78
Apr 20th, 2013 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think I would believe the Falklands people on how they were treated by an occupying force, not your version.
The persons you quoted were not spies but resistance fighters against invaders of their territory.
How about this one then.
On June 8th 1982, the UNARMED AND DEFENCELESS Liberian registered tanker Hercules was attacked and bombed in the S.Atlantic by an Argentinian C-130 from Mar Del Plata.
At this time the ship was in international waters, far off the coast of Brazil, about 2000 Km (estimated) from the Falklands.
The C-130, commanded by Brigadier Mayor Alberto Vianna dropped a total of 12 500lb bombs of which one hit the ship and lodged in a hold without exploding. The ship, commanded by, Capt Renzo Battagliarin limped into Rio de Janeiro a couple of days later. As it was too dangerous to defuse the bomb, the ship was taken out to sea on 20 July and sunk some 467 Km from Florianopolis off the Brazilian coast.
If the bomb had gone off, the crew would have perished.
You can read the full account in Air Forces Monthly May 2012 written by Santiago Rivas, an Argentinian military journalist
Also, two unarmed scout helicopters shot down by Pucaras/Skyhawks at San Carlos. Crews killed.
At the time of its sinking, the Narwhal was not fishing for commercial fish stocks.
NARWHAL was in fact formally monitoring the position and activity of the Taskforce and had Argentine intelligence personnel on board..Prior to her being attacked by Sea Harriers on 9 June she had been warned off for spying by HMS Alacrity
on 30 May and ignored the warning. So spying by an unarmed Argentinian naval vessel is OK and should be ignored ?
The fishing vessel was used to disguise its purpose so the Argentinians could accuse the task force of sinking a civil vessel doing no harm to anyone.
So, you still think that Argentina is blameless ?
@78
Apr 20th, 2013 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Falklanders could have been designated as spies??
Did they not follow military conventions?
Were they not in uniform, is that it?
Were their actions defending their homeland against the armed forces of an aggressor nation, illegal??
The Narwhal was a Spyship posing as a Commercisl trawler while it monitored the British fleet for the Argentine military and Intelligence agency.
Argentina did not Declare War on Britain or the Falklands before invading.
How can Argentina be accusing anyone else of war crimes or not following the rules of war?
#83: I expected you to do what the vast majority of the islanders did: sit and wait
Apr 20th, 2013 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#84: Do as you seem most fit. On the contrary, I use information from both sides to get a clearer picture. All what I mentioned may be read in Graham Bound's book. I assume you are familiar with it.
The sinking of the Hercules Tanker gave rise to the case Argentine Republic vs. Amerada Hess, 87-1372. On January 23, 1989 the US Supreme Court ruled that Argentina was not be sued in U.S. courts for attacking a neutral oil tanker.
The Narwhal was a spyboat. I stated that in my previous posting. It was unarmed, and therefore posed no threat for military forces. It could have been stopped, boarded and the whole crew arrested. Instead, it was fired upon and sunk.
#85: by definition, it is impossible for Argentina to declare war on the islands. The declaration of war was carried out informally, and therefore rules of engagement and the Geneva Convention still apply.
@86 yakban
Apr 20th, 2013 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“#85: by definition, it is impossible for Argentina to declare war on the islands. The declaration of war was carried out informally, and therefore rules of engagement and the Geneva Convention still apply.”
Oh, yes, more flawed argentine logic.
Along the lines of “we did not 'invade' - it is part of Argentina”.
And yet, you attacked the 'enemy', another People, the Fslklanders, or as you call them, the 'British'.
A circular argument that would be laughed out of the ICJ.
So, on another tac, what about the Fslklander 'spies' ?
Are those civilian farmers, “non-military enemy civilian combatants, not following the articles of War, ” and therefore, “spies”, or are they “citizens of Argentina”, in which case, they would not be “spies”. Did you invade because they were 'tax evaders', perhaps? Did they need to be made to comply?
Why not send a tax auditor?
BTW, the Narwhal was in the Exclusion Zone, a zone that the UK set up as an advisory to commercial vessels to stay out of, for their own safety. Commercial vessels inside that perimeter would be considered possible 'hostiles' and at risk of being fired upon or sunk. Which is what happened.
@yaghan
“ It could have been stopped, boarded and the whole crew arrested. ”
Could have been, I suppose, but who is going to risk their lives or their ships to find out if that were true, especially with your previous unethical tactics?
Forget it.
Of course, all of this is moot. If you had not invaded a community of unarmed British civilians, nobody would have died.
Do you reach your children this????
My Dear Troy:
Apr 21st, 2013 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentine servicemen did not attack any islanders, as previously stated. Operación Rosario was not about this. The firing was between them and Royal Marines, v.g. British servicemen. The goal was to neutralise and remove them, what was done later, without casualties if possible. Rear-Admiral Allara radioed requesting surrender of Rex Hunt, which he refused.
War declaration is between nations. This prevents a war to be declared between Argentina and the Islands. Simple as that.
May I quote your statement:
“are they “citizens of Argentina”, in which case, they would not be “spies””
spy or (agent) definition: the person who does the spying; a citizen of one country who is recruited by a second country to spy on or work against his own country or a third country.
Surprise, surprise! So a citizen working against his own country is a spy! Yes, we consider you islanders to be Argentine citizens, so all the people I mentioned in my posting indulged in spying activities. May I name several British spies for the Soviet Union:
George Blake
Guy Burgess
Donald McLean
Kim Philby
“who is going to risk their lives or their ships to find out if that were true, especially with your previous unethical tactics?
Forget it.”
By your standards, then, boarding a fishing boat illegaly fishing in the Exclusive Economic Zone is a waste of time and effort. Better fire at her first and ask the survivors later!
Do you TEACH your children this????
@88
Apr 21st, 2013 - 06:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Let me see if I've got this. There was no declaration of war because the conflict was with the islands? Not with the UK? And so by not declaring war on the UK, you confirm that the islands are a distinct entity from the UK. Thanks for that.
We also learn that when Argentina starts a war, it's grossly unfair to sink Argentine ships engaged in hostile activities (where have I heard that before), although it's apparently OK for Argentine to sink civilian vessels thousands of kilometres away which have nothing to do with the conflict.
Of course we've all seen how logical consistency is not a major consideration in the Argieverse, but this is really quite exceptional. Anybody might think your education system is severely broken.
@79
Apr 21st, 2013 - 08:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0“I'd like to express my admiration for Terry Peck+, Vernon Steen, Trudy Morrison/McPhee, Tony and Alisa Heathman, Reg Silvey and Eileen Vidal.”
I'd like to second that , heros versus nazi bullies.
So, by your logic, the Hercules could have been boarded , in International waters, and taken into an Argentine port. You could have sent out a civilian vessel, with marines, to intercept it. Instead, you chose to bomb an undefended civilian ship.
Apr 21st, 2013 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Please explain why it was OK to do this, but not fair to attack the Narwhal in Falkland waters.
Who says that the Narwhal was a “civil vessel”. She was being used by the Argentine military and had a naval officer aboard. Why, did he just fancy a sail or was he helping to count fishing stocks. The vessel was being used as an undercover spy ship hoping that its true purpose would be undiscovered or that Argentina could make a protest to the world that the dastardly UK had attacked a peaceful fishing vessel going about its business.
If a frigate had been sent to board the Narwhal, the first action the crew would have made would be to call up an airstrike against the RN vessel. So we take a huge risk just to satisfy YOUR sense of “fair play”. The Narwhal could have been sunk by the Alacrity on 30 May but was not. It was warned,your authorities chose to ignore it, and there were consequencies.
The action in the US Supreme Court was dropped because the Court said they had no jurisdiction outside the U.S.
I think that you are being rather selective in your conclusions.
I am seriously concerned about your reading comprehension skills.
Apr 21st, 2013 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now, will you allow me to use several postings for all those who kindly answered to my statements:
Hans, what I said is that there was an INFORMAL declaration of war. Since I cannot trust that you will understand what that means, I proceed to explain: An informal or unsolemn declaration of war is a declaration made in an irregular manner either by a constitutionally unrecognized nation or by the constitutionally recognized nation using unlawful, inappropriate procedures. Examples applying to the 1982 case?: Galtieri's speech , the interruption of diplomatic relationships between UK and Argentina, commercial trade ban, etc.
With regards to the sinkings (Narwhal and Hercules):
1. Both ships were civilian (out of your statement “ it's grossly unfair to sink Argentine ships engaged in hostile activities”, the civilian nature of the Narwhal is not implied here)
2. I quote: “although it's apparently OK for Argentine to sink civilian vessels thousands of kilometres away which have nothing to do with the conflict.” That is not what I implied. I simply stated that there had been a case concerning the sinking, and that, since there was a veredict, it should be considered as a closed case.
“Of course we've all seen how logical consistency is not a major consideration in the Argieverse, but this is really quite exceptional. Anybody might think your education system is severely broken.” As anyone might think that any of your judgements is highly biased, according to the first sentence. You have not appeareared as a logical champion in your post, especially in the first paragraph.
@92
Apr 21st, 2013 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The whole point of a declaration of a war is that it is a formal statement. The idea of an 'informal declaration of war' is an oxymoron.
Moreover, what you initially said was “War declaration is between nations. This prevents a war to be declared between Argentina and the Islands. Simple as that.”
Would you mind explaining exactly who your war was with? Either it was the UK, in which case. the UK being a nation, there should have been a declaration of war. Or if not and the war was with the Falkland Islands, the Falkland Islands must be some entity distinct from the UK.
As regards the Narwahl :
“April 30th: ALACRITY receives an order to 'scare-off' an Argentine trawler, the NARWHAL, that had been lingering in the vicinity of the task force. Just before midnight ALACRITY closes with the trawler. All lights are extinguished on ALACRITY and the rapid interception monitored on his radar must have given NARWHAL cause for concern. NARWHAL entertains the bridge team with a barrage of calls over the VHF and after being illuminated by ALACRITY's searchlight is 'requested' to leave the area as quickly as he can. As the trawler heads north at speed a star shell from the 4.5 gun is fired over the fleeing vessel.......just to reinforce the message!. NARWHAL was in fact formally monitoring the position and activity of the Taskforce and had Argentine intelligence personnel on board.. The message was clearly not fully understood: NARWHAL was later sunk for her sins but not by us. ”
http://www.hmsalacrity.co.uk/april.html
“... under the command of Lt. Cdr. Juan Carlos González Llanos. The civilian skipper was Captain Nestor Leonardo Fabiano. She made a number of visual contacts with British aircraft and warships, including a submarine, according to the Argentine version.[7] ”
http://www.hmsalacrity.co.uk/april.html
Commanded by an Argentine naval officer, participating in hostilities, and warned once already. Grow up.
#92
Apr 21st, 2013 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0War is a dirty business. If Argentina did not want to take the risks, it should not have played the game. Crying “foul” in this case has no validity.
In armed conflict, the duty of each side is to minimise their casualties and maximise those of the enemy.
I can only presume that both sides followed this adage.
Yaghan - some of your logic and lack of grasp of the facts are appalling! I have never read such nonsense in all the time that I have been following Mercopress!
Apr 21st, 2013 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@88yaghan
Apr 21st, 2013 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You don't seem to have your story straight.
Not only do you invent things,
Yaghan states -“ there was an Informal declaration of War, ”
“Informal”!! LOL
Then he writes,
“War declaration is between nations. This prevents a war to be declared between Argentina and the Islands. Simple as that.”
Contradicted by,
“Argentine servicemen did not attack any islanders, as previously stated. Operación Rosario was not about this. The firing was between them and Royal Marines, v.g. British servicemen”
Who were you at war with, Yaghan????
BTW,
You can't invade someone, steal their land, their homes, and their freedom, push them around with guns to their heads, attempt to kill their comrades, intern them, and then say,” we had no intention of hurting anyone, its unfair that the Brits are sending a military task force.
You really are stupid!
Where do you get these moronic ideas from?
Oh, right.
This is the kind of crap you're taught at school.
You really are thick- headed. You have opened your mouth and proven it.
#95: I really wonder what you think your contributions to overall debate are, apart from constant criticism. Did you win the Pulitzer or any other prize out of your postings, Gordo?
Apr 21st, 2013 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#94: Argentina lost 7 ships in the Campaign.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_de_las_Malvinas
Of all these, the only unarmed vessel is the Narwhal. The paragraph cited describes how the trawler fled when contacted by the HMS Alacrity. Never tried to engage. It was strafed 9 days later by Sea Harriers. Was that necessary for a trawler who previously showed no combat will, although indulging in espionage activities?
For the definition of informal declaration of war:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_de_las_Malvinas
Before indulging in your usual patronizing . I remind you these are sources you yourself used in your previous postings.
The war was with UK, of course. The islands holds such a status that it relies on the UK for Defense and Foreign Affairs, don't they? Any possibility of waging a war with the islands without UK interference?
#97
Apr 21st, 2013 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It was strafed 9 days later by Sea Harriers. Was that necessary for a trawler who previously showed no combat will, although indulging in espionage activities?
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@97
Apr 21st, 2013 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am seriously concerned about your reading comprehension skills.
“A declaration of war is a *****formal***** act by which one nation goes to war against another.”
The very first sentence in the reference you posted : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war
And since we are now clear that the war was actually with the UK, that the UK is a nation, and that a declaration of war is a *** formal *** act, I would be interested in hearing your latest explanation for the absence of a declaration of war when you decided to start one?
As for the Narwhal, the key element was not its previous role as a trawler, the key element was its role as an Argentine intelligence gathering ship in wartime. Or perhaps in the interests of consistency you'd also like to condemn the attack on the unarmed merchant ship Atlantic Conveyor?
@99hans
Apr 21st, 2013 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“, I would be interested in hearing your latest explanation for the absence of a declaration of war when you decided to start one?”
Hans,
if the Argentinians had “formally” declared war on the UK, the would not have had the element of surprise, allowing them to strafe the Barracks with machine gun fire and white phosphor grenades, to mirder the Royal Marines they expected were sleeping there.
@88 yaghan
Asked why you did not Declare War , you answered ,
““War declaration is between nations. This prevents a war to be declared between Argentina and the Islands. Simple as that.”
But then you say,
”The war was with UK, of course.“
and,
”“Argentine servicemen did not attack any islanders... ... The firing was between them and Royal Marines, v.g. British servicemen”
To sum up, yaghan, there was no Declaration of War because you were at war with islands, not a nation, and then you state you were at war with the UK, a nation.
Tell me, you sound very very confused, did you pass any of your Indoctrination classes?
Top marks for bluster, nonsense and faux indignation, though!!!
What a dumkopf you are.
#100: Hey, stupid: The “declaration of war” came from neither sides. Eat more sugar so your feeble brain remains able to respond.
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 12:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0“To sum up, yaghan, there was no Declaration of War because you were at war with islands, not a nation, and then you state you were at war with the UK, a nation.”
No, moron. Still messing all up. Try reading it again until you understand.
“Top marks for bluster, nonsense and faux indignation, though!!!”
I will take that as a praise, coming from such a SOB.
#99: WTF are you quoting, do your fingers shake so violently that you are unable to write properly? Or do you need better glasses? Or are you simply so stubborn and moronic that you cannot read properly? Try getting your medication before engaging in intellectual activities beyond your capabilities.
#98: Then all the spying islanders should have been prosecuted , incarcerated, and executed. An equivalent treatment.
Your mocking does not prove anything, simply describes clearly the kind of people you are. You somehow feel that you know better. You don't. I wish you the worst.
@101dumkopf
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 02:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0You don't seem to be able to form any logical thoughts, do you?
You are righteously indignant that rules should apply to the Brits and not to you?
You are angry that your unarmed spy boat was attacked, but you feel it was justified to attack an unarmed civilian community without Declaring War?
For some reason, you don't think it is fair that the British retaliated to regain the islands and homes you took from the inhabitants?
1,000 people died needlessly because of your invasion. You were given a chance to withdraw before the British Task Force arrived. The binding UN Resolution 502 demanded that your forces leave, as per Internationsl Law - as per agreements signed by Argentina.
Instead, you dug in your defensive positions even more and sent your aircraft and navy to intercept our fleet.
Of you had not invaded, nothing would have happened, nobody would have died.
And before you say anything else, it was against Internationsl Law and the UN Charter to invade the Fslklands.
Are your contradictions clear to you now?
You are not the ones that should be morally outraged - you brought everything upon yourselves and caused the deaths of our Forces and 3 Islanders, as well.
However, you need to blame someone else. I understand, it's just what you were
taught at school.
@101
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 06:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0If you can't handle challenges any better than this, you really should refrain from preaching the National Cult of Victimhood round here. That only works with people who can't see through the lies, irrationality, and hypocrisy necessary to sustain it.
Like schoolchildren, for example. To return to the topic of the thread.
#101
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 97 yaghan. Examples of my CONSTANT criticism please!
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 01:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Monthly South Georgia spam!
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0March 2013 South Georgia News and Events at http://www.sgisland.gs:
- HMS Protector’s First Visit
- Fishing and Shipping News
- Nybrakke Refurbishment
- Unusually Windy Weather Hampers Rat Eradication Progress
- Centenary Shackleton Scholarship On Offer
- New Book - Cry Argentina
- Successful Old Bird
- Museum’s Bumper Year
- Late Wish – Return of the Stone
- Bird Island Diary
- South Georgia Snippets
http://www.sgisland.gs
ARGENTINA'S LEBENSRAUM
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's perhaps just a coincidence that the European Union has announced that Serbia has sacrificed its old Kosovo Province in exchange for membership in the EU.
Meanwhile, Argentina is conducting a “Malvinas” seminar with the purpose of promoting its illegitimate and silly claims to the Falkland Islands. But, at the same time it washes its hands about the fascistic 1982 aggression against the Falklands. The seminar's idea is to continue intoxicating the culturally underdeveloped people of Argentina with a so-called “new perspective.”
No kidding!
While Europe has buried in the trash can of History all irredentist claims, Argentina is doing exactly the opposite, and helping to revive and agitate such useless and dangerous appetites in Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela, Suriname, Guatemala, and Nicaragua.
Philippe
@105gordo1
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“@ 97 yaghan. Examples of my CONSTANT criticism please!”
Gordo
I think we've seen the last of yaghan on this thread.
His righteous indignation at imagined “unfairness” has already devolved into a all-out temper tantrum.
He will need to sulk for awhile until he forgets his humiliation suffered here.
He sure won't be responding to anything we say after his severe cock-up trying to blame others for the war they started, the sound defeat of their military, their embarrassingly shameful behaviour, and the needless loss of lives for a futile and illegal cause.
#86
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would recommend that you read
The Official History of the Falklands Campaign Volume 11
War and Diplomacy by Sir Lawrence Freedman.
This covers the events leading up to the Narwhal incident and afterwards. These are not third hand journalists or Wilki. versions of the event but taken from official records made at the time. I have no reason to doubt their veracity.
You have still dodged the question about the Hercules.
You are adamant that the attack on the Narwhal was unnecessary although it was a combatant vessel and that it could have been boarded instead of strafed. For all we knew a helicopter landing could have been met with stinger or blowpipe missiles. It WAS boarded later and the crew taken off and documents were found confirming its mission.
So why was it OK to bomb the Hercules? It was purely a civilian vessel with no RN officers aboard. You could have sent one of your frigates north and boarded it but chose to destroy it and kill all aboard IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.
Your reply, that it was taken to court and dismissed does not answer your moral point for the Narwhal.
@109clyde
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm going to read that!
Sounds interesting.
Narwhal-boy might not like what he reads though.
He's scuttling away from here, faster than a spy trawler.
Time for Falklanders to stop explaining to the Argentina why they don't belong to them. Time for Argentina to explain why they don't belong to the Falklands.
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Falklands existed in its present form (settled by British people) before Argentina even existed. I agree that there should be a complete merger between Argentina and the Falklands, except the Falklanders should be take over Argentina :-).
The country formally known as Argentina will now be renamed Falklandina.
@111 Falklandia
Apr 22nd, 2013 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good post.
Let me make a suggestion though,
The country formally known as Argentina will now be renamed “ The Lesser Falklands”
:-D
Busy downloading and reading the reccomended material:
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 05:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0“If Argentina was to attempt to move supplies by sea then fishing boats seemed as likely vessels as any. Fieldhouse sought a change in ROE to remove the requirement to warn off merchant ships before any action was taken against them, as this was inappropriate when the attack was likely to be carried out by Lynx helicopters armed with air-to-surface missiles. The Chiefs of Staff and then Nott accepted his recommendation.
In fact the first contact was made by Sea Harriers—at 1130Z on 9 May, 50 miles south of Stanley. This was investigated and identified as the Argentine stern trawler Narwhal, which was suspected of intelligence gathering rather than blockaderunning. It had been warned off ten days earlier so it could not claim innocence. Having gained approval
from Coventry,the aircraft attacked with their 1000-lb bombs. One missed. The other, incorrectly fused, penetrated the ship. With no damage observed, the Sea Harriers strafed the target with 30mm cannon. The Narwhal was now in trouble. The crew began to abandon ship, issuing a Mayday call and lowering liferafts, but they had not been manned before the next two Sea Harriers were on the scene. They noticed few signs of distress, and with Narwhal’sflag still flying, they also strafed it with cannon.”
The 1000-lb bomb wounded one sailor (Omar Rupp) badly. He died shortly afterwards. Notice that the second wave of Sea Harriers strafed the ship after a Mayday call had been issued and lifeboats had been lowered. Quite threatening, isn't it?
With regards to the Hercules tanker attack, it was ordered by the FAA because the ship was helping the Task Force. I very much doubt that a ship that big could have been easily boarded. Still documenting the event.
“Warned off ” - as in, “leave the area, or else”.
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 06:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0I guess they waited around for the “or else”.
Yaghan - the “armed conflict” initiated by Argentina in 1982 ended in abject defeat for Argentina almost 31 years ago and yet you still attempt to justify the provocation by your country. The Argentine forces surrendered to superior military and naval skills and were obliged to leave the Falkands archipelago with “sus rabos entre las piernas” - end of story.
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 07:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Any consequences of the “war” can be laid entirely at the door of the instigator - ARGENTINA! No other country is to blame and the continuous whining and whinging from you and your countrymen is nothing but a risible attempt, as usual from Argentina, to blame others for your national shortcomings.
@113
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 07:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0> I very much doubt that a ship that big could have been easily boarded.
I don't know. Somali pirates do it all the time. In plastic flip flops and skiffs.
I've been doing some research myself, but there's a couple of questions I can't find the answer to. Perhaps you could enlighten?
How many warnings are considered appropriate, under Argentine Rules of Engagement, before engaging the active hostile assets of an adversary who has launched an unprovoked and undeclared war against you? Such assets also being present in the exclusion zone which you have previously announced?
How much risk are your own forces to be subjected to in engaging such assets, just in case the assets in question maybe don't have effective weaponry out of sight, and perhaps misunderstood the warning they'd already been given? Or something?
#113
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0We agree on two points. The Narwhal was a spy ship under control of the Argentine Navy and 10 days earlier she had been warned to leave the area.
Unlike you, I have witnessed Harriers dropping live ordnance and conducting strafing runs at the bombardment range in Cape Wrath in N.Scotland.
The aircraft come in at high speed in both events giving the pilot only a few seconds to to fire at the target.
In the case of the Narwhal, there was no indication of surrendering. If your flag is still flying then you are still active.
RN ships usually flew two battle ensigns in case one was lost and the wrong message perceived by its adversary.
Remember, this was a war time situation. For all the pilot knew,someone could have appeared on deck with a handheld surface/air missile.
You note that a mayday call had been sent. The Harriers, if I remember correctly, are equipped with UHF radios and unable to receive this call.
Hardly threatening ? Passing on information to your headquarters which could be used to attack the British fleet and result in the deaths of many of our men. I don't think so.
As I said already, war is a dirty game. Your people were caught out and suffered the consequences of your high commands blunder.
As to the Hercules, why was it right to bomb it ?
A civilian vessel, nowhere near the Falklands, no warning given.
A frigate could have been sent to intercept the vessel and board her. The standard procedure is to fire a shot across its bows and order it to stop.. The Hercules would have had boarding ladders which could have been deployed and allowed examination of the paperwork and orders. If not satisfactory from your point of view, it could have been escorted into BA. Simple ?
However, by your logic, Narwhal a crime -Hercules a legitimate target. Neither of us - I assume- have had to make life or death decisions on the spur of the moment.
The Narwhal was attacked because she was a threat - end of story.
@112 Troy Tempest
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I second that. Argentina was once nicknamed 'the Sixth Dominion' - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,778724,00.html
It's a pity Britain didn't take over Argentina (or La Plata) the way it took over Quebec.
couldnt be arsed reading most of this, but skimming through it quickly I take it that I am correct in assuming that Argentines are in the process of re-writing history again?
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina did NOT invade the Falklands.
Maggie started the war
UK was responsible for all deaths
UK had no need to even get involved.
UK could have been settled “Peacefully” by just handing the islands over “therefore” it was the UK who started the conflict.
Argentine troops only fired on ROyal marines in defence of themselves...
anything new to add to this list of historical rewrites?
@119
Apr 23rd, 2013 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's just another sermon from the Cult of Immaculate Victimhood. They have their own Pope in here and everything. For adherents, it means never having to say you're sorry, because nothing is ever your fault. In their situation, you can see what the attraction is.
@113
Apr 25th, 2013 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“In fact the first contact was made by Sea Harriers—at 1130Z on 9 May, 50 miles south of Stanley. This was investigated and identified as the Argentine stern trawler Narwhal, ”
Pretty stupid for the Narwhal to be sailing where it was at risk. That was the captain's fault and his alone. Any person with any sense would have kept the Narwhal in an Argentina port away from a war zone.
There was no whining from the Brits even though their ships were attacked near British territory 300 miles distant from Argentina as they understood they were at risk because it was a war zone.
Argentina was INCREDIBLY stupid. If you start a war, you run the risk of getting attacked, which they did.
This is not logically difficult to work out.
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