MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina bans British made ejection seats from local jet trainer IA-63 Pampa III
Argentine jet trainer manufacturer FAdeA has been banned from installing a British made ejection seat in a new version of the Pampa by the government of President Cristina Fernandez, according to company boss Raul Arganaraz. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThey guarantaa authonomy by using Russian seats instead? Argie logic.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 06:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Likely the ejector seat is the most valuable part if you are unfortunate enough to be the pilot of one of these in a combat situation.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 06:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0If this is about autonomy then it should be an Argentine ejector seat. I guess this will be another pilot who has to cross his fingers before having to rely on Russian technology.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 06:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Target production, including exports, is 100 aircraft and the company is also looking at a single-seat design, Arganaraz said.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 07:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Target Production. At least they see it the way we do.
Petty, infantile and stupid!
Jun 19th, 2013 - 07:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is any part of this thing actually Argentinian? Apart from the name that is?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 07:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Whoever fits the seats, they will certainly be needed if CFK racks it up to a shooting war.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0British industry is gonna fall appart now...
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0While I wouldn't tend to laud Russian technology their ejector seats are known to be top notch - especially for low altitude ejections. The west actually copied some of their technology in that regard.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Holy crapola, that's 5 less seats we're selling this year, through personal preference I don't buy anything Argentine including wine or corned beef, so I reckon I just evened the field for them 5 or so seats :)
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well let's see.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0The British INVENED ejector seats, which were then copied by the RUSSIANS.
Yes they made improvements, BUT if Argentina doesn't want anything of British invention, they shouldn't use any ejector seats.
Or the internet. Or computers. Or vaccines. Or most things really.
The only conceivable circumstance where their “autonomy” would be compromised here would be if these aircraft were used agressively against the Falklands - more evidence of Argentina's possible future intentions??? (After all, their defence minister (I think) said the only reason they weren't back here was because of the defensive forces here)
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Looks like a preparation for an arms embargo and therefore part of a war plan to me. Better make sure that a few cruise missiles are targeted on the Casa Quemada.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0And for the pilots? There's always Van Halen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlq0lYB3iSM
Who really cares?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 10:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0l make it a point to NEVER buy anything from Argentina anyway.
Not that they've got much that we want.
However when l travel, l often see things from Argentina, but never even consider buying them.
Two can play at that game.
I hope the Russians get paid.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Brits. did not get paid for at least one of the ships used against them in 1982, I believe it may actually have been the one that recently turned turtle.
Excuse me, but was it not Argentina that was bleating to the World that the UK was militarising the South Altlantic? I am open to comments by our Argentinian friends.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fancy denying the pilots a chance to wear the much coveted Martin Baker tie.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0After the extensive field trials of 82, I would have thought they would have gone for reliability.
I've got a couple of friends in the avionics industry. They will probably have something to say about this.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0My biggest concern is that quality control isn't an important factor in such an idiot decision like this. More than likely, they will replace it with a substandard seat at the pilot's own peril.
New? It's basically an updated 1970s/80s design. It's a trainer and light combat aircraft, it wouldn't stand a chance in combat against anything the Brits have.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 11:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your right, the seat is as integral a part of the plane as the engine.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0It needs regular servicing and maintenance, if it is to function every time, the pilot only gets one chance.
You can always replace a plane with an identical one, you can't say the same for the pilot!
Considering they don't have jet fuel bother with a trainer?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Plus don't their jets crash on take off more often than not?
They can't have that many left in service.
Another nail in an argie pilots coffin!
Jun 19th, 2013 - 12:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Chuckle, chuckle.
Why can't they make something locally, all you need is a bit of TNT and some seconds from a furniture factory. It's not like they are ever likely to be used, they can't afford the dollars for the jet fuel.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentine government has said publicly they are not planning to attack the Falklands and so as a result the UK government is unlikely to block future sales of the product and spares to Argentina.
An ejection seat would be classed as humanitarian equipment, there would be no problem obtaining export licences for spares and services.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 12:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway, it!s their aircraft, let them equip it how they will. I do not think Martin Baker will beat themselves up over this story. Their order books have enough work for years to come!
A first/second generation jet whose only military value is that of initial trainer or by sheer weigh of numbers tactical advantage. But the loss 's would be shocking not surprising they do not want to put in expensive ejection seats needles to say it will be someone else's Sons or Daughters.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's only military value would be as a counter insurgency attack aircraft, for use against people equipped with almost no anti aircraft defences. Up against a modern air defence capability such as ours or NATO country, it's nothing more than a manned drone!
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They probably can't afford the British ejection seats, as the company that makes them only takes real money, such as GBP or USD.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Russians might barter for them...assuming Argentina actually has something that they want. Otherwise they'll want paying with real money too.
So, some more small steps, good to see.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Naturally Argentinas economy will progress over time and with it the defense industry. And from there on increased defense procurements.
It'll take time but with 40+ million people a high quality...high number... air force is inevitable.
By that yardstick it should also apply to your navy, what's your theory on that?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This should be good!
28 What Argentina is building up its Air force!!!, better get the UK ambassador to the UN too go see the Ban Ki-moon & moan incessantly about some sort of militarisation in the South Atlantic lol
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0An hilarious article. Argentina thinks Britain is a bigger threat to it than Russia! Engage smug mode!
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let's not forget where they originally got their jet technology from?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Us!
11 LEPRecon
Jun 19th, 2013 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We invented football so must be best in the world at that too.
I wouldn't be surprised if the real story was that MB decided not to tender for the new contract. There are a number of reasons why this would be the case - either the Argentine's can afford the latest generation seats, they are worried about getting payment for them, they realise the whole program is probably pie in the sky and they will be strung along for this 100 aircraft rubbish when about 8 will probably end up being refurbed from existing Pampa stock where they reuse the old mk10s or possibly they are worried about reputation risk if the Argentine's do not maintain the ejector seats properly and then something happens - we all know what will be spread about if that occurs.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@28 Is diving into the ground from altitude counted as “progress”? Just some “thoughts” for you. “It'll take time but with 60+ million people a high quality...high number... air force is inevitable.” That's your comment amended so that it applies to the UK. And, did you know that the argie air force currently has 177 aircraft? And the Royal Air Force has 827? And did you know that, in 1982, British forces captured or destroyed 96 argie aircraft? Took 2 months!
Jun 19th, 2013 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More importantly, thirty one years on and they have still not replaced them all.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 02:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Upgrading and cannibalising, that's the name of the game.
My theory 29 - Huge natural resources, means of production and 1.5 million students presently. Population 40+million, previous joint projects with nato countries and no... immediate... hurry.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the navy - I dont ever foresee Argentina (100,000+ land forces) being invaded*. (or a mercosur country near Brazil being nuked). So .. who knows.
I do however predict maybe 50 advanced jets within a couple of decades.
Chile ~ 60 present day, so not entirely unreasonable. Comparable total GDP's per cap.
Edit: whats this...35. the rAF ?? .... yes certainly technology allows us to fly great distances quickly but lets not get excited. Long way from blighty, be quick.
*edit edit. Or bombed
If there will be a great number of these in service, It is not unreasonable for Argentina to wish to save money and produce their own ejector seats and surrender flags.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 02:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 037. It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever read anything about the current state of the Rg military? Paraguay could kick it's a**.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wouldn't be too sure that a neighbor wouldn't invade.
Territory is only yours if you can defend it
and
you can't
#37
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only possibility of conflict between the UK and Argentina is if your country tries to use force against the Falklands and OUR S.Atlantic islands. Why would anyone think that we would invade Argentina or any other S.American country.
You are welcome to your country.
If push came to shove, we would pot you off at long range.
1.5 million students.? Do you mean university students.
If so, they will not all be physicists, aero engineers or scientists.
What is the meaning of the last para.....edit ?
Brazil could invade.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0US could ...probably manage it.
Russia ... unlikely.
End list.
You left off Chile.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And they could manage the country and it's resources much better too
The RAF operates 5th generation aircraft, you are still operating 3rd generation.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your pilots are still looking out through glass, ours are looking down through the floor and out through the back of the air frame, whilst simultaneously engaging multiple targets.
Chiles F16'scame from America, the Americans were more than happy to sell them to Chile, why don't you try buying them. One thing is certain, you are never going to develop anything as advanced as the F16 or similar aircraft, no matter how long or how hard you try. You do not have the capability and you certainly do not have the money!
42 - Sorry yankee they don't have the ground forces.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 043 - defence co's licence out designs, not that country of origin matters that much.
Argentina has no fuel or ammo! What are they going to do walk to the border while Chile levels your cities and blockades your ports?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How long do you think the population would put up with that until they acquiesce to the Chilenos demands? A day or two...maybe.
@44
Jun 19th, 2013 - 04:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And just where do you think they get those licences to export state of the art military technology to a foreign power?
The local magistrate?
Argentina should not be underestimated in aircraft production capability. Example : the FMA IA 58 Pucará ground attack aircraft deployed to Falklands during the invasion. Indeed they fulfilled the design function as ground attack - in that the majority were destroyed in ground attacks. Some had the distinction of being destroyed whilst airborne.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 05:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_58_Pucará
Not to worry, Spaniag'ies newest best friends are rumoured to be suppliers of cutting edge 'tupperware' stealth flight technology. True, that they are devoid of ejection seats, but it is claimed that martydom, and a supply of virgins is to be had, should the worst occur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_58_Pucará
I hear this thing is fly by wire. Feel sorry for the operator though, must get pretty dizzy, all that going round and round in circles!
Jun 19th, 2013 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@37 Still reading your comics, are you? You don't ever see argieland being invaded? What a twat. The UK could invade argieland day after tomorrow. And the RAF can be over argieland in less than a day. Bombs, missiles, everything you'd “dislike”. Here's the deal. The RAF Voyager has a range of 9,000 miles. Falkland Islands are well within that. Also, the Voyager can not only carry troops and equipment, it can refuel other aircraft en-route. Ready to see squadrons of Typhoons arriving? Make no mistake. One Typhoon can down anywhere between 10 and 20 argie aircraft. Do I care? No, I don't. Let's use argieland as an example. Wipe it off the face of the planet. Then, to North Korea, we can say “This is what we can do”. Who would care about “argie” subhumans?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is probably a blessing in disguise because if the Argie economy defaults and goes belly-up again, no one will get paid.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ No Vestige of intellect
Jun 19th, 2013 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And who is going to supply you with jet engines when you make these fabulous planes in 20 years?
Did you know that after 20 years and MILLIONS of USD equivalent CHINA still cannot manufacture jet engines and has to buy them from Russia?
Russia are so pissed off with China over their copying of other Russian equipment that they are considering not supplying them with any more jet engines.
There are VERY few manufacturers of jet engines and even fewer who can make MILITARY jet engines: Britain is one of them but don’t expect to get them from us..
So come on bollock brain, you have been gobbing off for long enough now so let's be having a few answers. We can always appreciate a joke, especially the one about The Dark Country making quality goods. Ha, ha, ha.
I take that back in part. I have just remodelled my bathroom using argie sanitary ware and I have to say the finish is superb, but most of the time I just crap on it.
Very childish CFK,
Jun 19th, 2013 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0still
when ya pilots start using 2nd hand seats and finding they dont work,
at least CFK will be happy..
Chinese CZ-11 helicopter - The cheapo bargin basement version of the Eurocopter Squirrel. Why go for a cheap Chinese copy when their friends the French could supply the real version? (Someone ought to suggest they put Russian ejector seats in them !!! :) )
Jun 19th, 2013 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Vestige
Jun 19th, 2013 - 08:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentinian economy is basically an agricultural economy. Where's your scietific base? You base your future military capability on todays weapons. Surely the US has stayed ahead because of its science. You won't get powerful feeding China. The Soviet Union (and Russia subsequently) was not a market based economy and so managed to manufacture a science base. Regarding any invasion of Argentina. No one is going to invade Argentina (or UK for that matter), but in 82 when the Vulcans bombed Port Stanley airport, Argentina certainly started to0 get its defences ready, especially when the SAS were active.
By the way, I did like your Troll video.
Who would invade Argentina?
Jun 19th, 2013 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What would anyone gain?
You could take it, but could you keep it?
- Tou have nothing of value, except TDF airfields and ports.
- The general population would drag their feet and be outright 'uncooperative'.
- The industries need refurbishment
- Your shale oil and gas need $$$ and 10 years of investment to extract it
- The infrastructure is inadequate and crumbling
- who would want to be responsible for feeding 40 million unproductive citizens???
Vestige, Toby, etc., you are safe behind your keyboards.
:-)
“Argentina bans British made ejection seats”
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The junta knows that when these planes are converted into combat ready (ha) the lifespan will be less than the fuel in its tanks, so it makes sense to build shite because they are disposable anyway!
meanwhile inflation rises!
Tbf the women are good looking the RIC might decide to get bored borrow a landing craft and invade 30 british soldiers against 40 million argentines hardly a fair fight.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe 26 of the platoon can sit it out to make it a fairish fight.
They of course will be in big trouble as hm goverment really doesnt want a south american colony:)
IF we did invade them(& conquer the country, it would certainly be a challenge to get the place shipshape!)
Jun 19th, 2013 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We'd have to define borders with the neighbours before the invasion though, as l'm sure Paraguay would want its land back(& who could blame them?)& l think Chile has unfinished business with Argentina.
But on second thoughts, why bother?
They are writing themselves off without any help from us. ha ha!
One at a time please...one at a time....no pushing. Yankee take that crayon out of your nose.
Jun 19th, 2013 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway, resisting the urge to digress or engage in the name calling (ahem).
My original and correct post somewhere up there estimated a future fleet of a comparatively high quality and quantity within 20 years or so.
This is, naturally, founded on reason ... or reasons. Granted it is a projection of the unforeseen.
I believe given just under a decade or so, the Argentine economy will emerge from its gloomy times and its currency will re-value. It will be out of the stranglehold, more populous and more prosperous than today.
Well educated by its wonderful universities (alan).
Functioning smoother and making moar munay, with the help of trade deals and mucho natural resources.
Presently the Arg defense budget is on the up and I expect it will keep in line as a percentage of the heightened future govt spending.
The pampas are a starting development for a move towards greater things. In the mean time Arg is upgrading and in the market for new fighters. (being a major nato ally means you can buy such things :) )
There will be no war fought for the windvinas islets in the meantime. However.... it is my reasoned (nae ..correct) estimate that Argentina functions very well in the roll of a giant aircraft carrier that cant be sunk. And that its always very close. Annnnnd.........that air supremacy in that region will be established within the readers' lifetimes.*
http://www.rnrmarketresearch.com/future-of-the-argentine-defense-industry-market-attractiveness-competitive-landscape-and-forecasts-to-2018-market-report.html
Just out of interest - www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmtE6Zgd-kc
*except troy the net warrior who will die of aids.
@59veggie
Jun 19th, 2013 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“My original and correct post somewhere up there estimated a future fleet of a comparatively high quality and quantity within 20 years or so. ”
Where have we heard this sort of prediction before?
LOL !!!
You, Hepatia, Toby, are you the same person ? ;-)
I would love to see your “Timerman Timeline”, all of you are predicting great changes in 20 years!
I doubt you'll have electricity by then, the way you're going!
In fact, I expect you'll be on tail end of the second of your 10 year cyclical Economic Death Spirals, 20 years from now.
I suppose you always need hope to keep your spirits from succumbing to futility.
Good luck.
;-D
59. Pure fantasy, look at the last 50 yrs and watch the trend line. There is nothing to say that trend will change anytime in your lifetime.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 12:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0It seems as though you have never even been to Argentina.
59 veggie
Jun 20th, 2013 - 12:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0“*except troy the net warrior who will die of aids.”
So, sexist as well as racist and Anti -Semitic??
:-)
Troy
Jun 20th, 2013 - 06:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Funny that Vestige and A_Voice 'Think' you are my Sock !
Even sending a fake Aussie to flush me out didn't work - I could see right through him!
“Vestige” will implode soon, I should know.
Cheers from Melbourne.
SO THERE!!! Nyanananana!...We don't like the British! BOO! BOO! HISS!
Jun 20th, 2013 - 06:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0lol @ vestige
Jun 20th, 2013 - 09:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0“”“It'll take time but with 40+ million people a high quality...high number... air force is inevitable.”“””
all you have to do first is build a high-quality industrial base, hi-tech electronic base, high-tech manufacturing base, working economy, functional democracy and a few other things and then you might be in with a shot of making half a dozen Sopwith Pups.
#59
Jun 20th, 2013 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Define air supremacy in YOUR scenario.
This could be defined by numbers or aircraft, quality of aircraft and weapons systems and quality of personnel. Radar and ground based missiles would also come into the equation.
Argentina has a very long coast line. Your air bases to the south are about 300/400 miles apart.
A low level attack could be made through this gap before it had any chance of interception. The RAF and FAA are singularly adept at this type of flying. See videos :-
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs6csP5UbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs6csP5UbY
The last vid. has F-15'S from Lakenheath.
The Falklands have a very narrow frontage -100 miles which can easily be defended by radar. A Typhoon can be at 40,000 feet in a matter of minutes from launch to meet a projected attack from ANY direction.
We don't need air supremacy on a large front as the object is to defend a small area.
Remember the Luftwaffe's attack in the B.of B. They had only about 50 miles to their targets, Argentina has 300 plus miles to the Falklands. Again, you are looking at a crystal ball and picking the best scenario for yourselves--there are other equally valid scenarios which would not suit your view.
65 - Yep en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Argentina#Industry (see also 'import')
Jun 20th, 2013 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse 066 - Armchair generaling - disengage target Cmdr Mitty. over.
Arg is very comparable (and of larger scale) to Chile, which itself currently has (note) normal air supremacy for the immediate region.
In my highly prized opinion the fundamental elements are in place for a comparable fleet within 20 years.
This includes economic means, economic probability, political will, political necessity, changing public perception of the military, and national sentiment and pride.
In fact having further examined the situation I estimate (correctly) well before 20 years.
That is to say .... more reasons to have credence in this estimation than to not.
Toby, Unless and until Argentina has a good dictator, not like the current one, but one like Pinochet that will root out corruption, get rid of the Union influence in gov't, teach the people to work, rebuild the military, Argentina will be on the same trend line it has been on since Peron.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 11:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0That trend is down
Argentina has more chance to look like current Venezuela in the next decade than like Chile.
Trading toilet paper for food is the near term future for Rgs.
Yankee....quick question. Would you rather have G.W Bush junior or Obama in the white house.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@66 Clyde15:
Jun 20th, 2013 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A friend of mine (in the RAF) that was stationed on the Falklands a couple of years ago told me that there were measures in place so that even if Argentina somehow captured MP airbase, British special forces would just melt into the countryside with enough ground to air missiles to deny Argentina air superiority until the task force could arrive.
#67
Jun 20th, 2013 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No more than you. We are all “armchair generals” here although some have more insight than others -dream on, its all you have !
@67 you don't understand the term air supremacy - it means to have complete control of the skies. It's probably true Chile has supremacy at the moment because Argentina's airforce is a joke but if Argentina were to somehow miraculously raise their airforce to the same level as Chile's then neither would have supremacy as they would be comparable - they would have 'air parity.'
Jun 20th, 2013 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Juan - a correct, if pedantic, point. I technically tip my hat to you.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I re-iterate my claims and replace suggestions of general region with general inferences towards 'eastern coastal region'.
70 - you're on my Schwarzenegger list, along with Yankee (Yankee !! I already told you to take that crayon out of your nose) and Clydeaged15....back of the class.
73. In the last 50 yrs ( give or take) Argentina has deliberately made itself into one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and is the fastest country moving DOWN the GDP/Country list.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What kind of numbskull would think that it has or will do anything to change that projection?
Care to elaborate?
Your Universities are horrendous, you have no pure research, no military, your population is one of the most unproductive IN THE WORLD, your gov't is considered criminally corrupt...so what's going to change in the next decade?
Specifics not delusions please
@72 Juan
Jun 20th, 2013 - 04:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with your statement but air supremacy doesn't just come from aircraft alone.
If one country has anti-aircraft defences and the other country doesn't, then the one with the defences is in a better position to gain air superiority because not only will they have aircraft to shoot down their enemies, but ground based missiles too.
However it is a mute point. Argentina has a lot of problems, the least of which is the state of their military.
The government needs to concentrate on Argentina's infrastructure, such as the railways and roads, and security, such as tackling crime.
The military is important for defence, but I doubt there is anyone who would want to invade Argentina, the UK certainly wouldn't, I mean what can anyone do with a country full of basket cases all requiring psychoanalysts?
Give specifics, get specifics.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ok some specifics
1.5 million students.
Human development index - Very high (top category).
Not so bad Nobel laureates per-capita (not far off Japan).
Successful domestic developed nuclear program.
Successful domestic satellite launches.
Successful 3D radar technology domestically manufactured.
41 million population, 3 cities with populations in the millions.
98% literacy. ~70% private access internet.
European levels of Physicians per capita.
Worlds 4th largest shale oil deposits.
Solid industrial base. (Economy: industry: 30.6%)
Successfully domestic manufactured jet trainers.
(plans to roll out at least 100 Pampa II training and combat aircraft in association with German Grob Aircraft AG over the next five years)*
Jointly developed KC-390 medium military jet cargo with Embraer. (worldwide orders)
Government announced plans to increase defence expenditure, from 0.7% of GDP in 2010, to 1.5% of GDP over an unspecified period. It is estimated that by 2015 the defence budget will stand at 1.3% of GDP.
Comparable Gdp p.c with a neighboring country which presently has the levels of equipment I've alluded towards.
Comparable military budget with Ukraine and Finland, both of which employ more than twice the levels of that suggested in my earlier correct post.
Hungary - Roughly 1/3 Argentine military budget. Similar budget % on defense. 14 Jas Gripen in use.
Why these facts ? - Because they all relate to the condition of the country and the probability of purchase of fighters.
* http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2012/04/16/Argentina-aims-to-develop-defense-exports/UPI-80491334609805/
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2012/04/16/Argentina-aims-to-develop-defense-exports/UPI-80491334609805/
Now then Yankee, before you roll out your parade of horrors, try to remember how we arrived here - my suggestion that an air-force similar to Chile's was a prospect for Argentina in well under 20 years.
Nothing in that list gives any indication of better FUTURE performance. You had all of that the last 50 yrs and it has brought to be known as a rogue state, one of the most corrupt in the world, narco-state and you went from one of the richest to the poorest in that same time period.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0few examples;
Having students who don't graduate isn't going to do anyone any good.
Half the population doesn't make it out of the 6th grade!
Having oil in the ground when no one wants to explore for it won't help the economy.
Big dumb poor population in crumbling cities seems like a detriment does it not?
Jets without fuel to train the pilots are not beneficial.
Have you ever been to Argentina?
I think not.
“Half the population doesn't make it out of the 6th grade”
Jun 20th, 2013 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And thats going to stop graduation of 1.5 million students who are already in uni's how?
Having oil in the ground when no one wants to explore?
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/06/12/argentina-promotes-oil-and-gas-opportunities-at-the-british-argentine-chamber-of-commerce-in-london see comment 33 c/o ' Snr Think '
Jets without fuel ??
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/06/12/argentina-promotes-oil-and-gas-opportunities-at-the-british-argentine-chamber-of-commerce-in-london
“Big dumb poor population in crumbling cities seems like a detriment does it not?”
See above, Human development index - Very High.
Have you been to Buenos Aires? ...Have you been to Detroit ?
I think not.
And your specifics aren't very specific.
Btw - Dubya or Obama.
Only 14% of your university students ever graduate.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Promoting is not exploring as CFK has found out
Er, we're talking Military jets...yeah no fuel. Ask your pilots how often they train...never.
Human development index....yeah ok.
Yes I lived in both the Detroit Suburbs and the BA suburbs. Detroit is safer and nicer. Much safer.
#73
Jun 20th, 2013 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Clydeaged15....back of the class. If I am there, you must be standing at the school gates holding your mummies hand !
I remember when I was 15 in the summer of 1957, I was at an ATC camp at the V Bomber base at RAF Marham and managed to scrounge a flight on a Canberra B.2.
I gave you a possible scenario. You ducked the question.
How will you gain air superiority over the RAF and Fleet Air Arm defending the Falklands ? Simple question.
You give the example of the Pampa and KC390 ( Brazil taking the lead),as domestically produced aircraft . Have you looked at the list of INTERNATIONAL companies involved in this venture. On 26 July 2011, Embraer announced its selection of BAE Systems to provide hardware, embedded software, system design and integration support of the flight control electronics. BAE will perform software, hardware, and system design and support integration of the flight control electronics on the aircraft.[45] On 3 April 2012, BAE Systems announced it have been chosen to provide active side sticks as part of the overall cockpit controls.[46]
To produce the Typhoon took the combined efforts of UK Germany ,Italy and Spain. To do this alone would have been impossibly expensive for any of these countries.
The F-35 is even more expensive and requires a huge international consortium to fund it. You think you can do either alone or with Brazil ?
Argentina will be on a par with this in 20 years ?
In this time others, including the U. K. will have moved on in their technology.
I read today that Arg.are in negotiation to buy either Mirage F.1's from Spain or Mirage 2000's from France.
Both excellent aircraft in their day.
Your country has a right to arm it's forces and I have no objections to this. Every country has a right to defend it's territory as do we.
As I see it, there is absolutely no chance of the UK invading Argentina. If you decide to attack the Falklands again it will be firmly rebuffed without a foot touching Argentinian soil.
Successful domestic developed nuclear program.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 07:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Successful domestic satellite launches.
Successful 3D radar technology domestically manufactured.
41 million population, 3 cities with populations in the millions.
98% literacy. ~70% private access internet.
European levels of Physicians per capita.
Worlds 4th largest shale oil deposits.
Solid industrial base. (Economy: industry: 30.6%)
Successfully domestic manufactured jet trainers.
(plans to roll out at least 100 Pampa II training and combat aircraft in association with German Grob Aircraft AG over the next five years)*
Who told you this shit your a right cabbage if you believe it
#59
Jun 20th, 2013 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Strong reaction from Bolivarian countries to Colombia’s cooperation with NATO
You say
being a major nato ally means you can buy such things :) )
Is Argentina a major NATO ally ?
Are you being two-faced ?
81. I love how that list is so cherry picked, like number of physicians...okay but the hospitals have no syringes or gloves and the equipment is out of a 50s horror movie but yeah lots of unqualified unsanitary healthcare workers.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Famous line for the gardeners in the USA..“I am a doctor in my country.”
Where to start.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ClydeIQ15 - You want me to draw out a solution to some fantasy in your head, and to design some kind of order of battle. I dont side step anything I consider relevant or evident.
I think you need to re-read my posts and come back down to earth. I dont have time to go into your comments but I think you may have introduced some things yourself such as the fleet air arm, and locally producing f35's. Also I propose an equivalent force as would be between Chile and GB, present day. (i.e time and advancements accounted for).
Im pre-occupied with the likes of Yankee anyway, so get in line.
Yankee - would you consider that if a country can develop or maintain the means to operate large civil fleets and international airports, while at the same time fueling an air-force, that it might...possibly.. be capable of obtaining fuel.
Im interested in the 14% statistic btw, cite it please. I have reason to doubt it based on the following from a US uni. (last paragraph)
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ipo/abroad/search/countries/argentina.htm
And here too : www.argentina.org.au/education.htm
Yeah ... human development index. Look it up.
Slatzz - links available if you cant find the info yourself. Teacher is MORE than happy to show you the right answer.
Clyde ... typo ... 'major non-nato ally'. Grow up. And stop eating that glue.
Now then ....lets see the non-personal, specific, reasoned, objective and cited reasons countering the proposals in my original post.
Keeping in mind the evidence Ive provided for the case.
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ipo/abroad/search/countries/argentina.htm
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ipo/abroad/search/countries/argentina.htm
Here you go..http://m24digital.com/en/2011/03/09/only-43-of-students-graduate-from-high-school/
Jun 20th, 2013 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And there is a HUGE difference in supplying your military jets and commercial jets. You can't afford the fuel for starters, you import all of it, most from the USA. THIS IS THE REASON YOUR PILOTS DON”T TRAIN!!
You have a big problem hopin' and a wishin' but not a doin...just like your country has for the last 50-75yrs.
Yes you may be able to do something but you don't, can't or won't.
big big difference
What is the exchange rate for toilet paper to flour these days?
84 Not a Vestige of intellect
Jun 20th, 2013 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Yeah ... human development index. Look it up.”
No, I suggest that you UNDERSTAND how the nubers are arrived at.
Yes, The Dark Country has made a big improvement BUT it is ONLY because you were so damn piss-poor before!
NO WONDER the numbers are higher! Ha, ha, ha.
What a pity.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0With all its resources Argentina could have a great standard of living(like it did in 1900).
Nobody wants to invade you & no-one is holding you back.
lts your own mis-management & corruption.
But hey, why should we be unhappy.
While you spiral downwards, it makes an Argentine invasion even less likely.
Cristina--the best General that WE have got!
BTW, on the link to Idaho state, they're trying to sell Argentina to students to take a semester abroad, that is why they left off that the economy is crashing and it is super dangerous.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I like these type of exchange programs it allows USA kids to see good we have it in here and how simply awful it is in 3rd world countries. I think every student should travel to South America or Africa.
On the reverse I don't want SA kids in the USA too many of them never leave. We don't need more drug dealers, waiter and bus boys.
The Argies will renege on payment anyway!
Jun 20th, 2013 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@85yankeeboy
Jun 20th, 2013 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“A report published by Di Tella Institute reveals that only 43% of students that enters secondary school completes it successfully.
The sad numbers positioned the country as one of the lowest in Latin America, down from Bolivia, Paraguay and Ecuador. Chile and Peru are the best placed in this regard, with 70% of students completing the cycle.
Another point that stands out from the study is that parents are increasingly choosing to send their children to private schools.
Since 2003, the state education showed a decline of 250,000 students. This led to the rise of enrollment in private schools by 18% in recent years.
College graduation rates are not encouraging either. In Argentina, only 14% of students that stars University reach the degree, published Unesco.”
Good post, Yankeeboy.
I like it when the Trolls deny something outright, and then tremble as they wait to see if their gamble worked ...and it doesn't!
If only there were some kind of internet referee.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wheres Hon. Judge Ed Lolington when you need him.
Not that I dismiss your links' figures entirely yankee, but it is only 1 link referenced from an NPO by an individual posting Gangnam style pictures in their profile.
Whereas I have 2 links from an American university and an Argentine government page. Neither of which are presently involved in any overt gangnam style related activities.
Also considering the annual undergrad and postgraduate levels of Buenos Aires University alone, along with the scale and number of universities in Argentina, and the absence of further links or evidence Ill have to doubt your numbers. Although if it were true that would still leave roughly 50,000 graduates every year.
I also have to doubt your comment that Argentina can't supply fuel to its military aircraft. Partly because a quick google images search will show pampas flying. Also cause you mention right after.... that Arg regularly imports such fuel. lol.
Not doin....? Well isnt that what Ive been pointing towards, progress is being made, see re; 100 Pampas on order, KC390, (addition; possible Pampa NG).
That is something affirmative towards my original post.
Along with all the other reasons Ive cited.
As predicted rather than come up any convincing reason that my original comment was incorrect or far fetched in any way, you have instead decided to come up with the likes of your (#88) post above.
- 86. But can you comprehend why HDI was quoted by me in this context, probably not.
87- Isolatede - look out your window....look at youtube links in 84 ....look out window....look at youtube links in 84 again.
Oh if only my earlier prediction could be dismissed by someone who isn't restricted to safety scissors. If only someone could objectively reason rather than throw poo from their swinging tyre.
Slatzz - been googling ?? where ya gone ??
Toby, you get more ridiculous and delusional with every new character.
Jun 20th, 2013 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is sad.
Yeah I know. :)
Jun 20th, 2013 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0;)
Wow with all the abilities that Vestige thinks Argentina has.....
Jun 21st, 2013 - 02:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0and they STILL can't work out their own inflation rate.
Once an equal to my country, now not even in the same league! In 20 years the gap will be even wider than it is now.
Anglotino
Jun 21st, 2013 - 02:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0And “Vestige” says,”Yeah I know. :)
;)”
A little bit different style than 'ole Thinkus, but our Vestige is someone's sock, or vestment, as the case may be ;-)
Hmmmmm...if a desperate CFK decides to trade Soy Beans for 12 month lease on Sukhoi 37s, things could get very nasty! They can carry AAMs that can reach the Falklands without the launch aircraft actually leaving Argentine air space!...OK don't get all excited about specifics, CFK is crazy enough to try it!
Jun 21st, 2013 - 04:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0@90 Vestige,
Jun 21st, 2013 - 08:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0lt may come a complete surprise to you, my dear Vestige, but most of us love this landscape & would prefer its attractions over a pretty crime-ridden city anyday.
lf you think that what you have is so much better than what we have, l can only quote Caractacus when he was taken as a prisoner to Rome.
”That the Romans with all their fine buildings & (public)works, should so resentfully covet the mud & thatch huts of the Britons”.
You stay in your crime ridden glittering metropolis, we'll stay on our free, clean windswept lslands.
@96 did you mean some other aircraft? The SU-37 has not progressed beyond an unarmed test aircraft and the programme was cancelled, if you mean the SU47 then that too is only at flight testing. The longest range AAMs the Russians have in service couldn't reach halfway to the Falklands from Argentinian airspace and the R33s are only carried on Mig 31s anyway.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think it is funny and sad that Rgs believe the propaganda put out by CFK. They are really s stupid people.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are they as dumb as the North Koreans?
Maybe even worse
#84 Vestige of little brain
Jun 21st, 2013 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Clyde ... typo ... 'major non-nato ally'. Grow up. And stop eating that glue.
I can only reply to what you write. Why don't you try proof checking before you post !
I presume glue is an Argentine delicacy - I have never tried it
The fantasy is in YOUR head. If you wish to trade insults then OK, I can oblige in spades. You must be another incarnation of Nostrils with your childish addiction to classrooms.
I could go on and on discussing the meaning of air superiority but you haven't the wit to understand.
Your country's contribution to the KC-390 is no more than panel beating. The clever stuff is being done by the other partners of which there are many.
#97
The SU-35E is the latest fighter on show at the Paris airshow and will be on sale to whoever can afford it.
The Sukhoi-T50 is the Russian equivalent of the F-22 and is designated for the Russian air force. It MAY be available for export at some future time.. Better wait for the Chinese who have pinched Russian and US technology and reversed engineered their own equivalent.
Maybe once they figure out how to keep electricity consistently supplied to their most populous city when the temp falls under 40 their scientists will have some time to devote to a jet engine.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0hahahaha
Yes yes, you're a sock puppet, your this you're that, you made a typo, trade soy beans for whatever.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0(although clyde is actually using some vestige of logic, although may have mis-understood)
Anyway.
....some personal insults from the deniers.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/feature123526/
..some further evidence from yours truly.
@101 yankeeboy
Jun 21st, 2013 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Dark Country will never be capable of designing and manufacturing a civilian jet engine, never mind one that is combat capable and it will be of no use talking to their new mates the Chin because they can’t do it either having spent decades and millions and millions of USD on it.
The Chin have to buy ALL the engines they use in civilian and combat aircraft from the Russians: so much for Chin manufacturing, but we already know that.
Maybe you didn't finish the article:
Jun 21st, 2013 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0For example, in 2007 a military funding programme established to increase the defence budget by $200m a year until 2013 was not implemented for budgetary reasons. The government also postponed modernisation plans, such as the replacement of the Mirage III fighter in 2009 due to economic constraints.
Such uncertainty in the defence budget has a negative impact on the domestic defence industry and may limit its future expansion potential
BCRA reserves are rapidly falling and in the near term there is nothing and no way for the gov't to replenish them.
How in the world do you think they are able to afford to buy any new equipment?
You are delusional.
#102
Jun 21st, 2013 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting article but dated JULY 2011 !
Is it still relevant ?
And since 2011 they've been in a deep recession, had HUGE INFLATION and yet our little Toby thinks they have the U$ and the brains to increase their military...
Jun 21st, 2013 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0poor deluded Rgs
do they put hallucinogens in the water supply?
PMSL
Jun 21st, 2013 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did anyone look at the last article Vestige provided?
Argentina's defence budget is expected to reach US$5.5 billion by 2015.
Wow! The UK doesn't stand a chance against a country that in 2 years might have a defence budget 10% of the UK's current budget.
Looks like the best they could come up with for A new jet was in 2010 when they tried to RENT a jet from Jordan.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 03:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It didn't happen...
La Fuerza Aérea Argentina (FAA) has several types of fighter Mirage and it is uncertain how many are fully operational today.
Assigned to the VI Air Brigade (Tandil, Buenos Aires) are of different models, mainly Mirage IIIEA / DA -used in 1982 in the Falklands War. There are also several units Mirage V-5P Mara (purchased from Peru ) and IAI Finger - very similar to the Kfir -. Last year, for example, a IIIEA crashed near its base by officially unexplained causes.
In recent years, the FAA has evaluated several options. France has offered the Mirage 2000 and the United States some second-hand fighter F-16, and even the Spanish government also offered nearly a dozen Mirage F-1M . These aircraft, modernized during its lifetime, will be dropped gradually with the entry into service of Eurofighter 2000.
Some experts noted then that the incorporation of the Mirage F-1M Spanish, a plane intermediate between the first-generation fighter aircraft Mach 2 (like the F-104) and last ( F-18 and Typhoon) , would allow the FAA regain effective control of national airspace, which is currently very difficult to meet the shortage of air assets and low degree of operability.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/americas/9953-argentina-intends-jordan-mirage-f-1ej-rent-dassault.html
The budget and reserves are much much much worse than in 2010.
Ya'll need to get back on track and re-read what I've said.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think I may elect Clyde as group spokesperson as there seems to be some hope there. Anglotino's post seems to sum up the misunderstanding and diversion that has taken place. And the rooms level.
Yankee - I admit defeat you win, we're all done now.
Yes Clyde - I do think that a 2011 article is relevant, also I've taken time into the equation and use Chile's present fleet as an indicator for future quality and numbers.
I specifically noted [see- ”(note)” ] normal conditions, i.e the fleet air arm is not Normally parked beside the islands. I wont go into detailed hypothetical situations as that would be speculating too far, possibilities based on a possibility, endless variables. Be sure not to confuse 'having' with fully manufacturing solely.
The point/implications of my prediction are that well within 20 years, with time and British spending accounted for, that the situation in the relevant region will be one where the airspace of the islands will be untenable to the squadrons occupying the islands if Argentina (in a highly unlikely move) chose to take the skies.
An illustration would be basically if Chile's fleet presently was Argentina's.
We've seen the resources, the necessary time, workforce, and industry accounted for in my posts, for both the economic improvement and national/industrial development necessary to produce such a result.
I've also given reliable links and indicators of government intention to make moves in this direction.
I hope you can look on the situation as objectively and dispassionately as I have. And, resist wild assumptions and baseless exaggerations.
Don't feel the need to dig in your heels stubbornly, assess the information I have given in my posts (76 being a good one). Come back to me with realistic counterpoints.
“air force expenditure, estimated at $662.3m in 2011, is expected to grow at a CAGR of 19.81% to reach $1364.9m by 2015.”
(F-16A/B: US$14.6 million).
The mighty Argentinian Air Force
Jun 21st, 2013 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8532/8560276061_16cf810508_b.jpg
@109 Vestige
Jun 21st, 2013 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It isn't the amount that your government spends on defence, it's how much of that money actually gets to where it is needed.
Corruption is now so rife in Argentina that every person at every layer of 'red tape' skims off their 'cut' of the money.
Why do you think your ice breaker has been sitting in dry dock for years? Corruption!
Where do you think all that money (US$ 2 billion) Aerolineas Argentinas was given to buy new aircraft went to? It disappeared into various 'officials' pockets and used to bribe people and so on and so for, until there was nothing left.
Until Argentina tackles the rampant corruption, your military will remain weak, with old outdated equipment. Your ability to 'develop' your own systems will remain almost non-existent, as the money will also disappear.
Foreign investment will also become non-existent, because no one can trust the Argentine government not to steal the funds.
So Argentina's real problem is corruption and the attitude of the people of Argentina to that corruption, which is at best laissez-faire or wanting to get in on the 'action'.
Not a good way to run a country by any stretch of the imagination. And that's all you have, imagination, it's never going to happen unless there is a fundamental change in the attitude of the Argentine public towards their elected officials.
109 No Vestige of intellect aka TTT
Jun 21st, 2013 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see where you are going now; you are training up to take over from twat face Timerman when he dashes of to his secret lair after TMBOA has been 'retired'.
DON'T do it, you will be held up to scorn and ridicule if you do! Oh, oh, too late, you already are the laughing boy for the Brits.
Vestige, it's clear to anyone who has any sort of knowledge of defense procurement that you don't have functional knowledge of the process. You clearly theorize everything and than pat yourself on the back because the only thing you seem to care about is trying to refute everything everyone says in a Nationalistic way.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yep. Twat face has received 3 balanced objective and reasoned replies so far.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Corruption - 1 point to Lep, well played sir.
Toby, You do know that there is a large outstanding balance due from the last military purchase Argentina did with the USA so that is why we have denied purchases of replacement equipment for your current “fleet” thereby making you cannibalize the jets to keep some of the rest running. This has been going on for the last 20 or so yrs.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So interest and penalties plus balance due before you could even consider buying any of our outdated military technology.
Do you know nothing about your own military?
Kinda sad
Link please.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Currently there's around 16 FightingHawks on active duty, because a big supply of spare parts is waiting in Maryland. Crazy as it sounds, the ministry of defense has not completed payment for those.
Jun 21st, 2013 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is from another board but my source is works at the Pentagon so don't have a link for you. I bet with a little digging you can find it yourself.
I am off to a happy hour on a roof deck we are having AMAZING weather today.
“my source is works at the Pentagon so don't have a link for you.”
Jun 21st, 2013 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No loss of trade for MB-they wouldn't get any money for their seats from Argentina in any case.
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This latest news means the trade balance between Argentina and the UK is even wider and as UK buys more off Argentina, the UK just sells elsewhere and makes the Argentines more reliant on the UK's buying power.
If the British take the same attitude to Argentine goods and stop buying, Argentina is in the sh1t.
Whatever ejection seat the Argentines buy (assuming the supplier actually receives any money from Argentina), it is the most important part of the Pampa if the Argentines are stupid enough to use it to attack the Falklands.
But as Argentina's homemade (?) aircraft are only effective against unarmed troops (the Pucara didn't fare too well against British troops in 1982), it is unlikely they will be of any use other than a manned target drone as @26 has confirmed.
Argies: We aren't buying British seats, so there.
Brits: Your pilots are less likely to get out of the aircraft if it's shot down-that's good for your pilots?
Toby, Are you mad that I have high placed friends? I am sure if you searched around a little bit you'd find the link.
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 01:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I remember a few years ago an RG news show was talking about how the Air force was cannibalizing all the jets and so many of them were junked. At that time I think they had 12 that could fly. I bet they have 1/2 that now.
Meanwhile back in England - UK 2nd biggest arms exporter, oh and some cheap boats Type - 45 Destroyer :)
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Im so mad...yankee has a 'source is works at the Pentagon'.
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can your “friend”/ source who is works at the Pentagon show me the link.
No. Thought not.
No, moron - that was his point , “ I cannot give you a link because it is not a published item for general consumption ” - get it??
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm sure he doesn't really care if you believe him either.
BTW, “General Consumption” is NOT a high-ranking security officer working at the Pentagon.
Defense Security Cooperation Agency
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 02800 Defense Pentagon
Washington, DC 20301-2800
Telephone 703.601.1646
Give them a call I am sure they'll be able to send you the overdue invoices from Argentina. Maybe you can ask CFK to pay them from her accounts in Switzerland.
:)
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ya cant troll a troll.
you had me up to the Pentagon bit.
Whats the matter, Vestige?
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take yankeeboy's challange if you're man/woman enough. lol!
Phone the number, you might be surprised.
126isolde
Jun 22nd, 2013 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Look, no snide answers from Mr. “Vestige”, now.
Embarrassed, I imagine.
;-)
Just rang it.
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 12:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yankee ... thats a number for something called Momma Sheneequa's chubby love line. She says she don't nothing bout no source who is works at the Penagon.
It's Saturday so you probably got the maid didn't you recognize your mom's voice?
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 02:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0I see she was in Canada recently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w_S5zme5Y
129 yankeeboy
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0I thought the virginity coach would be right up his street!
LOLs
So here is a funny little problem with the state controlled marketplace:
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wholesale flour is 3-4X more expensive that retail flour due to price controls, so bakers are buying out all of the flour in the stores!
So store shelves are empty!
It is amazing to me how stupid these Rgs are day after day. They never learn. I guess all the smart ones left for other countries and generation after generation the intelligence gene pool gets weaker and weaker.
Simply fascinating.
BTW the bakers are predicting they run out of flour in August.
Viva Nuevo Venezuela
Yip, they know Im right. :)
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Toby, You've not been right about anything ever.
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope you have taken my advice over the last year and stocked up on items you can trade.
Barley bread looks like it is right around the corner.
See how Clyde and Slatzz already decided I was right.
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes if you repeat it enough you are right. PMSL at the level of retardation. Now repeat after me 'Malvinas son Argentinas' and all the other inconvenient facts will suddenly disappear.
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I put the declining level of Argentines on here and their descending intellectual abilities down to malnutrition.
You need to be more like Clyde.
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 10:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dont be afraid of the objective truth, dont get personal.
Or like slatzz, realize maybe you were wrong, at least he knows now to know his enemy for what it is, not how he'd like it to be.
136. You sound like a crazy homeless person muttering nonsense to themselves.
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0how very dare you !
Jun 23rd, 2013 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This thread is SO FUNNY!!!!
Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yankeeboy
Jun 24th, 2013 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL PMSL !!!
Vestige lol
Jun 24th, 2013 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#109
Jun 24th, 2013 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I had prepared a reasoned reply to you disagreeing with your hypothesis but hit a wrong button and lost it.
IF you had the Air Force you project AND the RAF had the current level of aircraft on the Falklands, in all probability you would have air superiority.
However, intelligence sources would have given an indication that your forces were preparing to attack. Air reinforcements would be down within 24 hours to counter any aggression.
An attacking force needs about three times the forces of the defenders which means that the defenders do not need as many aircraft as the attackers.. I would imagine that anti aircraft missile defenses would also make a large contribution to the parity of the forces.
So your aircraft need fuel for a 600 mile return trip plus fuel for
any action over the Falklands - a huge disadvantage.
We then come to the type of aircraft. The Typhoon can probably knock out several less capable aircraft without being engaged itself - in 20 years time who knows what innovations will have arrived. It may be unmanned aircraft. At present we have the aircraft, the models you MAY have are conjecture.
Quality of training. No one doubted the flying skill and bravery of the Argentine Air Force, but in air -to - air combat they were destroyed by the Fleet Air Arm without loss. Tactically they were seriously deficient and paid the price.
RAF crews train consistently with all NATO Air forces in all scenarios and weathers and are honed to the top level.
Where can the Argentine Air Force get this type of training if they are perceived as a threat.
At the start of the Falklands war, we were all nervous at the odds facing our fighters. My fears were allayed when I heard a USAF General saying “it will be hawks among chickens”. That is how it turned out. Nothing has changed.
These are purely my thoughts on the matter as an “armchair strategist” No one can accurately predict the future.
They might have 6 jets that can fly...6. But no fuel for training so the vast majority of their pilots have been decertified due to lack of flight time.
Jun 24th, 2013 - 11:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It will take a generation and lots of U$ they will never have to rebuild the military that has been systematically defunded and destroyed over the last 10 yrs.
Chile should take them now.
I thought TMBOA had ordered a complete squadron from Airfix?
Jun 25th, 2013 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No one can accurately predict the future.
Jun 25th, 2013 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0True enough, also past does not equal future so the future hawks among chickens is but an assumption.
(and serves only as a practical warning, motivation and lesson to get it right)
A country at the level of operating advanced aircraft will of course have reached the level of providing advanced training (the lesser cost of the two).
Having proud history isn't a variable in any air encounter. My football team with its proud history wont win just because they won last season.
“in 20 years time who knows what innovations will have arrived” - indeed, and in even less time too.
Ive highlighted present day Chile as an indicator, I believe if a similar or even slightly lesser fleet was present in Argentina today that would be a good present day illustration/comparison of the future scenario I predict.
As for the issue of range, even present day fighters unveiled as far back as 1959 can comfortably cover this combat radius and be back in an hour or two.
Some of these are very cheap, others less so, and others still have recently been assessed by the AAF, (mirage 2000's x 13), which shows and indication to move in this direction and in quantities (13) which even today would require an increase to the rAF flight on the islands.
The issue is not one of actual attack but of potential to control the regional airspace.*
It is an abnormality/anomaly/for a country of 41m with high hdi, high-medium income, advanced technical abilities and industry and all those other points I referenced earlier, to have such a low quality air-force. The primary cause being economic problems.
It is my (highly likely correct, ...as usual) prediction that the economic problems will not maintain against decades of time, whereas the country will remain and grow. Leaving an Argentina in fairly decent economic conditions, this will return the air-force to a global natural default standard for such a country.
*I could go on but have run out of space. :)
I cannot totally disagree with your posting. Yes, if Argentina recovers economically then it can have an airforce suitable for its requirements. If the UK Govt. decides it will make the defence of the Falklands a high priority then it can provide the means to do so. Either with aircraft based on the Falklands bolstered by carrier based back up. As a long stop,nuclear powered subs. with hypersonic cruise missiles could wipe out aircraft on mainland Argentina before they became airborne.
Jun 25th, 2013 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The issue is not one of actual attack but of potential to control the regional airspace.*
For the UK the airspace is immediately around the Falklands.
a relatively small area and easier to defend. You know where your attacker will come from.
For Argentina the airspace is around the huge coastline and border with Chile. Your Air Force would be spread thinner, require greater radar coverage and corresponding missile systems. An attack could come from almost any direction with the targets not obvious.
This debate is so hypothetical and riddled with unknown variables that any outcome could not be predicted.
Lets hope that it never will take place.
You are entering at least a decade of low economic activity if not a depression.
Jun 25th, 2013 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are not any indicators to say you are on a sustained path to prosperity in fact all the indicators point to hyperinflation, devaluation and depression.
You are either delusional or just plain stupid.
But now it turns out that the two seater wreck is to be joined by a single seater wreck: well, they will be wrecks after their first flight given the record of Argentina and airplane design.
Jun 25th, 2013 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Also, there are 18 destined for training the poor sods that are called pilots but have nothing to fly and another 40 'orders'. It is not known if these ‘orders’ are along the line of INDEC figures or based on the real world. In any event they 'expect' to make 100 planes (reported in New York).
I would imagine it will all come to a crashing halt (literally) after the first 18 or less.
But you got to ask 'how much more' will GB bolster the defenses when the military population is close to 1/2 of permanent residents already.
Jun 25th, 2013 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If Argentina purchases above a certain quantity the choice is to either counter the threat fully, or not at all.
Countering that threat involves an entire new airfield and associated personnel/housing/equipment/building.
The airspace around the islands is 360 degrees, so normally resistance can only come from 1 or 2 airfields/sources.
Argentina however has many airfields/bases, spaced well apart, with many beyond both the reach of any euro-fighter from stanley, or even f35's parked on the coast, as well as long civilian airports
(28 with 3000 meter runways), there is ...always.... a safe port.
The cruise missiles situation is dependent on subs actually being there year round, so strictly speaking isn't involved in the question of normal air dominance.
(also number of airfields vs number of cruise missiles)
It does remind me though of the (supposedly) cancelled Argentinian missile program condor 2 though, which former British security minister and first-sea lord, lord West, recently warned about.
.....Stanley's not a big town...about 1.5 miles long x 0.5 wide, more than two thirds of the population. Argentina launches domestically produced satellites and rockets.
But yes, just mostly speculation. No, there wont be a war for the islands within the medium future, thankfully.
I do however expect the future air force superiority Ive outlined, with the occasional show of force/incursion at choice times for the political lulz.
Toby, you are delusional. At the rate of deterioration in your economy and infrastructure you may not have potable water in BA in a few years! You can't even keep the lights on under 40F or above 90F.
Jun 25th, 2013 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where oh where do you think the brains or the U$ is going to come from to buy and maintain 2 jets much less having a superior enough force to retake the Falklands,
You need to decrease your meds.
Just like your Prez
Nutty as a fruitcake
@149 No Vestige of a brain
Jun 25th, 2013 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me put another hypothesis to you regarding airfield access.
Do you really think the UK military are as staid as the laughable argie twats, you know, the ones that outnumber the pilots and call themselves fancy names to hide the fact they have NEVER been in combat.
Even the outgoing commandant at the laughable ‘first strike at the Falklands’ base (there are STILL no Malvinas you twat) had to admit he has only been on active duty for 25 years and has never seen a conflict up close, warm and bloody. This will be the argies blood of course.
So in twenty years time where will your 'experienced' battle ready military come from? Nowhere, you won't have any, but the UK will still be supporting its allies and fighting alongside them.
But I digress while wetting myself over your ludicrous dreams. By then we will have yet another generation of nuclear armed submarine force AND a non-nuclear armed updated sub fleet: where you have nothing at all at the moment and expect to get up to the UK level in 20 years? The planes then will be unmanned and what will you have - the Pampers crap still if the present fiasco is anything to go by.
AND, if we needed to land troops I imagine it would be at BsAs airport. That would be a surprise for everybody: imagine the brown streaks following all the cowards running away. They would of course be correct to run away and leave the civilians to be rounded up and held at the Casa Rosada!
Got the gist yet about how stupid you make yourself appear to the Brits, FFS.
Maybe Vestige should ask the Chinese how they are doing with the aircraft carrier they've been refurbishing FOR A DECADE!
Jun 25th, 2013 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They think maybe in another decade the crew will be trained. Maybe not.
Rgs are not as smart or work as hard as the Chinese
Vestige is like a kid at the playground shouting my dad can beat up your dad. Yeah ok.
@149
Jun 25th, 2013 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“But you got to ask 'how much more' will GB bolster the defenses when the military population is close to 1/2 of permanent residents already.”
In 20 years if there are huge oil finds-there will be no shortage of money spent by the FIG to UKs armed forces.
You also seem to forget that UK forces have been massively decreased since 1986, since MPA was completed-before, a WHOLE squadron of Phantoms plus a flight of Harriers defended the islands-ie what is necessary will be deployed, regardless of the size of population.
“Countering that threat involves an entire new airfield and associated personnel/housing/equipment/building.”
Not necessary-in 20 years time UK will have naval V/STOL F35s-they will be able to be deployed all around the islands. No runway needed.
“The airspace around the islands is 360 degrees, so normally resistance can only come from 1 or 2 airfields/sources”
Not in 20 years The V/STOL F35s will come from wherever they are based-not restricted to airfields.
“Argentina however has many airfields/bases, spaced well apart, with many beyond both the reach of any euro-fighter from stanley, or even f35's parked on the coast, as”
I take it you have not checked out Storm Shadow's replacement-we are not totally reliant on US Tomahawks from subs. Your three nearest airfields would not be safe.
“The cruise missiles situation is dependent on subs actually being there year round, so strictly speaking isn't involved in the question of normal air dominance. ”
In 20 years time Storm Shadow's replacement will be in service.
Makes Tomahawk look like a stone axe. its air launched-so you'll get cruise missiles from all directions.
“Argentina launches domestically produced satellites and rockets”
These can be shot down-heard of the forthcoming Meteor missile?
And T45 destroyers?
“ do however expect the future air force superiority Ive outlined,”
Expect or dream for? That's a lot of money to spend, even if UK forces don't change in 20 years.
Funny how Toby/Vestige makes ridiculous bald statements, gets capably shot down, yet he persists doggedly in heaping delusion upon propaganda upon fantasy, until every word he has uttered has to be shown to be completely comically nonsensical.
Jun 26th, 2013 - 02:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Reveals the juvenile arse that he really is.
:-)
#149
Jun 26th, 2013 - 09:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0As I said, this discussion is hypothetical and predicated on so many unknowns and variables. The only thing on which I am certain is that the UK will take all necessary steps to counter any perceived aggression against the Islands.
It's bizarre he thinks UK would have to build new airfields/bases to accommodate any increase in forces...MPA is specifically built with surge capacity, it has 2 runways and loads of empty accomodation for personnel and planes (for a start there are 16 HASs so thats an additional squadron that can be put up without resorting to apron parking)
Jun 26th, 2013 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Toby the Halo gamer, persists in arguing about Air Supremacy and Defence with members of Britain's military or ex-military personnel - what a joke!!
Jun 26th, 2013 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Must be brief. The type 45 isn't -normally- present in the region, missile range is 120km. Carrys about 20 of these when in the area. Cruise missiles cost ~1.5 million, not so expensive.
Jun 26th, 2013 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0F35's cannot land anywhere, hardened tempered surfaces are required. These no question of which direction they come from as they dont float and islands are 240km width. Surge capacity is a requirement i.e adding new planes on permanent -normal- basis takes up space and necessitates new surge space. Chinese aircraft carriers = ?
I've never played halo. The market doubts any oil. Yes this mostly relates to speculation and hypotheses. Most of the above 3 or 4 posts digress from my earlier well founded and strongly reasoned posts/points.
So after all that, the Falklands are still part of the UK.
Jun 26th, 2013 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@158 As per previous post they have HASs built which they are only currently using 25% of. Surge capacity would be parking on the apron, they would only have to resort to this AFTER QUINTUPLING the current forces. And even then they could just build some more HASs if they want to base more stuff their permanently. There is absolutely no need for any new bases unless
Jun 26th, 2013 - 04:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@158
Jun 26th, 2013 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course I am failing to mention that in 20 years time the UK will have 2 aircraft carriers from which to base the F35s.
If the UK are desperate they will operate F35s from grass strips-even if it sets the camp on fire- the engineers would lay a suitable portable surface.
I forgot to mention that the RAF will also have F35s and will practice on any surface as long as they a re physically able to get off the ground-in a desperate situation the Brits would take risks with the F35.
The UK were told before the Falklands War that it was impossible to take the Islands.
The UK achieved the impossible.
The Argentine armed services would need a level of expenditure that is simply in their dreams to afford forces that could overwhelm the Brits-in 20 years but next time the Brits would not abstain from attacking the Argentine mainland.
If there is minimum oil around the Falklands then in 20 years time the Argentines would not bother attacking to risk the dreadful consequences that would result to Southern Argentina.
But the British would still increase their forces to what was required at MPA regardless of the cost.
Your posts are strongly reasoned but they fail to take into account the British military psyche, the way British operate their equipment in a war, our current resources and their capabilities, and the future capabilities.
In 20 years a lot could happen with the Argentine forces, but unless the UK stay as they are or deteriorate the likelihood of a repeat of 1982 is very slight to say the least. and Argentina's bullying toward the Islanders is not going to cause the British to back down, in fact it will provoke the opposite reaction.
Petebog
Jun 26th, 2013 - 04:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Your posts are strongly reasoned but they fail to take into account the British military psyche, the way British operate their equipment in a war, our current resources and their capabilities, and the future capabilities.”
“Strongly reasoned”, but based on a flawed premise - highly speculative and overwhelmingly optimistic (fantastic) projections of the Argentine economy, international relations, trade agreements, balance of payments, banishment of political corruption, competent leadership.
All these would need to met to enable Argentina to have any military forces.
We already know that they lack the experience and training against armed foes.
I suppose that Pampas or Pucara ground attacks on unarmed civilian populations will be effective only at first - that's if they get within 200 miles of their targets.
Sorry Toby - try 'Asteroids' at your mall arcade.
Maybe we should assign the Mt. Pleasant Air Base to NATO ?
Jun 26th, 2013 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Toby, Again, you are either delusional or just plain stupid. Your post are wishful thinking that you'll never see if your lifetime.
Jun 26th, 2013 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take a look at Venezuela that's Argentinas immediate future
Long term looks even worse.
Venezuela ?
Jun 26th, 2013 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0in this context..................... an interesting choice.
Yep lots of newish equipment that is not being maintained nor has fuel for training and a tank squad that can't get to its own borders.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 12:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fail.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 02:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Venezuela has su-30's , they train year round, are maintained perfectly, have more on order.
Fuel is no issue whatsoever, with refineries and the ability to send a few shiploads to Assad about a year ago just for political lulz.
Naturally your “high level pentagon friend” will have links to this news of a “tank squad that can't get to its own borders”.
If some kind of credible reason for this is not furnished then Ill unfortunately have to put you on the tinfoil hat list.
Being on the Schwarzenegger list and the tinfoil/Roswell list unfortunately may mean expulsion from class.
(You'll have to replace any spoiled crayons too)
Dumb bunny V military's poor readiness is common knowledge and there are plenty of articles about the tanks not being able to get to the border in 2008.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lots of huff and puff but the equipment they have is falling apart because they have no U$ to maintain them or train them.
Under the Obama Administration, then-DNI Dennis Blair testified before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on February 12, 2009, that while the Chávez government’s military purchases from Russia have been significant, Venezuela’s overall military capabilities remain
plagued by logistic, maintenance, and transportation shortfalls.
On February 2, 2010, then-DNI Blair again testified before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that while Venezuela’s military acquisitions from Russia are significant, more than $6 billion since 2005, “their armed forces lack the training and logistics
capacity to use these to their full capacity.”
167 No Vestige of a brain
Jun 27th, 2013 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0So, are you suggesting Venezuela will fight your battles for you in 20 years time.
Ha, ha, ha.
Both countries are going down bank so far you will meet each other in the sewers - oh, the sewers in The Dark Country are the roads aren't they.
Keep going with this crap we are all having a great laugh at your expense!
The SU -30 is a good aircraft but is it like giving a monkey a violin ?
Jun 27th, 2013 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0All talk, few tanks in border bravado
Jun 27th, 2013 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0How close did they come to war? Television pictures showed Venezuelan mothers weeping as soldiers left for the border. Venezuelan checkpoints choked off border trade, worth $6bn (£2.9bn) annually, and Chávez threatened to seize Colombian companies in Venezuela. Meanwhile, 10 armoured battalions with 9,000 men had put on the “sacred campaign boots” and were in the “theatre of operations”, said defence minister General Gustavo Rangel Briceño. But on Venezuela's frontier yesterday, the issue was not trust but visibility. San Antonio, a main border crossing, had yet to see a soldier or tank.
The Simón Bolívar bridge over the trickle that is the River Táchira was watched by the usual handful of national guardsmen in olive green uniforms. “Just us,” shrugged one. A few dozen soldiers in trucks were spotted heading into northern Táchira, but local reporters who staked out vantage points across Táchira, Zulia and other border states waited in vain for other signs of reinforcements. It was easy for a 1,400-mile frontier to swallow up 9,000 men, but there was widespread doubt that the stated deployments were real. A show of strength traditionally requires a show.
“We are reinforcing the frontier. We are on alert,” said Vicente Cañas, the Chávez-aligned mayor of San Antonio. Where were the reinforcements? “Out there, you know, in the fields.”
When Venezuelan media speculated about deployment locations, the military accused them of treason, hardening suspicion that apart from the occasional truck the reinforcements were bluster.
The absence of visible deployments helped explain why, in dozens of interviews on the frontier, not one person thought conflict was likely. “No, no chance,” said Luz Yañez, the Colombian consul. Diplomats and analysts agreed.
A most interesting article.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have an article on the benefits of aloe vera for pensioners south of the equator if taken between 2pm and 4pm weekly on alternating Sunday afternoons with a spoon of sugar and 5 custard donuts.
Its about as relevant.
And proves about as much.
Oh yes a senator you say..... I can find senators saying lots of stuff.
I can even find quotes from one or two saying something about ...what do you call them again?.....emm ah yes WMD's in that Iraq place.
Did you read your own copy-pasta sir?
Did it suggest “a tank squad that can't get to its own borders”.
Can you highlight the paragraph where this inability is suggested.
It would strike me as strange given that Venezuela has ............... oh, approximately 100,000 km of roads.
Chris - no.
Yes Clyde su-30's with untrained pilots....naturally. Happens all the time.
How did it even get to this looooool. I shouldn't be here.
It is pretty clear in the article, and btw do you think it is wise to have tanks go to the border OVER THE ONLY PAVED ROADS!!! Do you think they have Roads running along the jungle border with Colombia?
Jun 27th, 2013 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gads you are seriously retarded.
right, then highlight where.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They do have wheeled vehicles too you know, quite a few in fact. And a healthy supply of transport helo's. So yes, they can defend their borders.
However, going by your earlier illogic a cavalry force is incompetent if it cannot reach every point within the country. Now then, when shall I expect to see armor in the bayou's of n'worleans, the marsh lands of Miami or the highest peaks of Colorado.
All your future idiocy must be send via Clydefrog, your elected carer.
Are you f'ing with me? If you can't understand repeated posts pointing out your idiotic delusional statements WITH BACK UP FROM NEWS AND REPORTS TO US CONGRESS I can't help you.
Jun 27th, 2013 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are beyond my teaching capabilities.
BTW you didn't answer me what is the exchange rate for 1 toilet paper roll to a 1kg flour nowadays? I am going to BA and I want to be prepared.
#172
Jun 27th, 2013 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The SU -30 is a good aircraft but is it like giving a monkey a violin
Yes Clyde su-30's with untrained pilots....naturally. Happens all
the time.
I thought that my mischievous remark would have provoked a stronger response !
How good are the Venezuelans now ? They have the machines but can they use them against a NATO trained force ?
On paper, the Iraqis had a strong modern air force and ground forces. They rolled over and collapsed in a matter of days.
Likewise in the Yom Kippur war, the Syrians had a modern air force with strong anti aircraft systems. The Israelis hammered them.
Fielding modern weapon systems is no indication that you can use them effectively.
I see, so while their theories on paper were unreliable and lead to inevitable defeat your theories on paper are entirely more trustworthy because whereas they only had theories on paper you have theories on paper.
Jun 28th, 2013 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can they use them against a nato trained force? .....well I dont see any reason to assume otherwise. They themselves seem to think so.
Yom Kippur, Iraq, set no precedent here whatsoever and are based entirely on assumption, indeed why not use Yom Kippur as a pro-Venezuela point. Why not reference the Maginot line, Vietnam or Singapore.
Pick a battle, squeeze it into the context, makes for a solid theory on paper.
177. You clearly have never studied any military history. Why do you continue to embarrass yourself?
Jun 28th, 2013 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0178 Yankeeboy
Jun 28th, 2013 - 04:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even Toby's attempts to “wound with sarcasm” are hopeless.
ROFLMAO !!!! :-D
“Can they use them against a nato trained force? .....well I dont see any reason to assume otherwise. They themselves seem to think so. ”
Jun 28th, 2013 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course they can “use them”. A local flying club could use their aircraft. Would the Venezuelan air force be effective against a trained adversary ? That is the question.
Have they a current track record ? At this point I am unsure as to who their likely enemy would be...enlighten me.
Because the Israelis know how to fight against countries furnished with hi-tec weaponry - and win against overwhelming odds. !!! They have PROVED IT .
Has Venezuela ?
Maginot line...not relevant
Vietnam....you cannot win a civil war with air power, however the B-52 raids on N.Vietnam brought N. Vietnam to the conference table.
Singapore...19th century thinking.
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