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Falklands and Gibraltar: Spain considering a joint front with Argentina at UN, says Madrid media

Monday, August 12th 2013 - 01:45 UTC
Full article 202 comments

Spanish Foreign minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo will be visiting Argentina next September to meet with his peer Hector Timerman to discuss the Gibraltar and Falklands/Malvinas sovereignty disputes and consider the possibility of a joint front. Read full article

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  • Anglotino

    Spain and Argentina together are still not a match for the UK.

    Economically, politically or militarily.

    Just two countries with massive economic and political problems that are going backwards and need to distract their populations with something.... anything that will deflect from their economic mismanagement and decline.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    My God!

    Spain have become even more desperate to distract their people.

    Since when has the UN ever solved sovereignty disputes?

    Why don't they take the case to the International Court of Justice?

    Oh wait, I forgot, Spain wants to use Argentine tactics. Bleat a lot at International bodies to make it 'appear' to the people back home that they are actually doing something, whilst they are, in fact, doing NOTHING!

    And the Spanish government are certainly doing NOTHING to address the severe unemployment levels, and financial crises that Spain is in. That is what the people of Spain want them to spend their time and effort on, not this complete none event.

    Spain is in the wrong here, and they know it, just like Argentina know it too.

    But hey, waste the UN's time. I mean the UN can just drop everything to listen to these time wasters. It's not as if they've got more important things to do.

    Come on Spain, put your money where your mouth is and take this to the International Court of Justice. You just have to prove why the ICJ should overturn the principle of self-determination, and hand sovereignty over against the will of the people, to a country that has NEVER held sovereignty of the territory in it's history.

    Should be an interesting brief.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Be serious

    The Veto is ready and waiting as is the Royal Navy.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    According to the this source they are considering going to the ICJ. But thats not going to happen, because if any claimant had the remotest chance that's where they would have gone a long time ago. There is no country with a long standing claim that can now use the CLC as they are barred, under international law. It's just smoke and mirrors, as there is no legal avenue open to Spain or Argentina. Without a legal remedy there is no way to enforce such a claim.

    “Spain is also considering the possibility of raising the matter of Gibraltar at the UN's General Assembly or the International Court of Justice at The Hague, diplomatic sources reportedly told El Pais.”

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve-33-uk

    Could Gibraltar take Spain to the ICJ?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    And what a resounding success the last Argentine/Spanish front was in 2008, enshrining as it did the principle of self-determination.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve-33-uk

    @6 HansNiesund
    since you've brought it...

    'Self-determination versus territorial integrity
    ~ ...A number of states have laid claim to territories, which they allege were removed from them as a result of colonialism. This is justified by reference to Paragraph 6 of UN Resolution 1514(XV), which states that any attempt “aimed at partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter”. This, it is claimed, applies to situations where the territorial integrity of a state had been disrupted by colonisation, so that the people of a territory subject to a historic territorial claim are prevented from exercising a right to self-determination. This interpretation is rejected by many states, who argue that Paragraph 2 of UN Resolution 1514(XV) states that “all peoples have the right to self-determination” and Paragraph 6 cannot be used to justify territorial claims. The original purpose of Paragraph 6 was “to ensure that acts of self-determination occur within the established boundaries of colonies, rather than within sub-regions”. Further, the use of the word attempt in Paragraph 6 denotes future action and cannot be construed to justify territorial redress for past action.[50] An attempt sponsored by Spain and Argentina to qualify the right to self-determination in cases where there was a territorial dispute was rejected by the UN General Assembly, which re-iterated the right to self-determination was a universal right...'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Lord Ton

    As though it'll make an ounce of difference !

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Musky

    There is no legal avenue along which Spain or Argentina can travel. The ICJ has been available for business for a good number of years and neither country have gone that route because their claims have far less strength than the existing claims of the UK, the islanders and the Gibraltans. The UK has historical fact, legal documentation (Utrecht) and the UN charter, not to mention the International Law of the Sea regarding the artificial reef. Spain and Argentina have none of the above. As always, these countries use this matter as a smoke screen for their woes.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • JustinKuntz

    That'll be a laugh, both Britain and Gibraltar have often proposed resolving matters in the ICJ and its always been refused by Spain.

    http://law.uoregon.edu/org/oril/docs/9-1/Leathley.pdf

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    “Falklands and Gibraltar: Spain considering a joint front with Argentina at UN, says Madrid media”

    NEVER under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups......

    As Forrest Gump once said “Stupid is as stupid does.............”

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • txiki

    Maybe they should consider including morocco in the group, as they have a similar claim on territorial integrity basis as both Spain and Argentina and would no doubt get backing from them in the UN on that basis.... D'oh!

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Lord Ton

    Routine ???

    I hope not !

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/gibraltar/10236507/The-Spanish-must-take-their-hands-off-Gibraltars-throat.html

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve-33-uk

    'Protect Gibraltar like the Falklands, Boris Johnson says Britain should protect Gibraltar with the same determination as it shows over the Falklands, Boris Johnson says today. ~ ...Spain is also considering denouncing Gibraltar to the International ourt of Justice in the Hague for its “illegal occupation” of the isthmus - the strip of land connecting the Rock to the mainland that was not included in the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht...'
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/gibraltar/10236244/Protect-Gibraltar-like-the-Falklands-Boris-Johnson-says.html

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Rufus

    I understand that the Sun has already termed this entente kleptocrial “The Axis of Weasel”, which isn't bad for them...

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • razdaman

    ships set sail this morning,ones off to gib

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Idlehands

    I'm guessing Spain are hoping to borrow the other South American's tactic of promising support over the Falklands dispute in exchange for favourable promises elsewhere - ie YPF.

    This short term tactic is a terrible long term strategy for Spain which I fully support. They'll get their fingers burnt getting into bed with Argentina - and deservedly so.

    I can't see how it would become a matter for the security council unless either Spain or Argentina start threatening the security of these territories - and that's not then going to work in their favour. I'm equally puzzled why they think the UK would abstain on a matter that directly affects it. I assume that's pre-emptive wishful thinking.

    The real question is who will fall first - Rajoy or Kirchner. It'll be a short & close race.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    The Spanish as usual like their fascist buddies in Argentina, are not watching their backs.

    If they go ahead with their plan, then UK should give full political support for a referendum in Catalonia and mention that Spain has colonial enclaves in Morrocco.

    If I were Spain I would also consider that the UK takes most of their European exports and it would be nice to protect the British Tomato industry if the Spanish imports of Tomatoes faced the same delay in the UK as the delays on the Gibraltarian border.

    The Spanish like the Argentines certainly have the world's largest feet, as they seem to enjoy shooting them as often as possible.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • screenname

    Is this meant to be some sort of threat?

    They had a little weasel in Argentina masquerading as an EU politician not that long ago… So we already know the little rats are part of a bigoted Latin axis when it comes to the Falklands.

    And what exactly have they managed with a little axis of antidemocracy? .......... no, I'm still waiting

    @14 Steve-33-uk: “illegal occupation”

    The problem with that is Spain have built a no man's land as well, so I don't think it's going to get them too far. Still, it's got to give them more hope than the hilarious claim by some malvinista on here (Vestige, I think) that the Treaty of Utrecht is void because the UK allowed Jews to live in Gibraltar!!!!! I'm actually laughing with my head in my hand after typing that. I'm thinking the UK should be backing the restoration of the emirate of Malaga, just as long as the Gibraltarians get to keep Gibraltar: these Spanish politicians would appreciate that, they love a bit of hypocrisy.

    @3 Be serious: “The Veto is ready and waiting as is the Royal Navy.”

    These Muppets actually want a permanent seat on the Security Council... Not a hope in hell the way they are carrying on.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Martin Woodhead

    The axis of weasal stoatly diffrent from the axis of evil just mildly annoying

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • coldo

    I'm genuinely concerned about how we, the UK its British overseas territories deal with this current matter.

    It has been easy up to now to ignore the rantings of Argentina but now Spain is getting into bed with them it makes the matter much more pressing and raises the anti on the “game” as many will see it.

    The UK is not as popular within the EU as it once was (or was it ever?) and we may quickly find ourselves facing an uphill battle against countries we call our friends. Factor in the UN involvement of non permanent members and then the lack of support from friends who are permanent members and this struggle to support our territories becomes even harder... Although it is a fight I believe we should and must continue with in the face of any and all adversity.

    My real worry is from our own internal political parties who are present seem far more focused on their own political gain than listening to the voters. This is why, IMO, you get people following parties like UKIP and the SNP for example!

    I really just want the UK government to take a unified approach to this situation. One which is about diplomacy and discussion to resolve the matter but in which no way results in the UK loosing any of its support for the overseas Territories. And if that fails after a proper attempt to deal with the situation then we should adopt a strong closed approach to the nations who are battling against us.... but only take this stance as a last approach.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GeoffWard2

    Wow!
    A 'joint front' between Spain and Argentina would need a hell of a lot of concrete. That should show the Gib. people how to lay a reef!
    ... Thinks ... If they place turbines all along the Joint Front it could generate enough energy to ... well, maybe not.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #21

    It is all distraction politics by all three SPN, ARG & UK countries involved.

    Governments and regimes just playing tough to domestic audiences/ voters.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CaptainSilver

    Me cannons are primed and ready for the Dons. We sunk em before and we'll sink em agin. Show em cold steel and they run. The RG weasels are even more cowardly with all that Mediteranean blood.

    Seriously, just threaten them with the courts. Britain wouldn't be standing fast unless there was a rock solid legal case. That should shut them both up once and for all.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @21 coldo

    The UK is very popular within the EU because we are one of the few countries that gives more than it takes.

    Spain, on the other hand, takes far more than it gives.

    So out of the two countries, the best one not to p!ss off is the UK. Because if the UK leaves the EU, the whole EU economy will suffer. If Spain leaves the EU, the EU will actually save money.

    That is why the thought of the UK holding a referendum on membership really frightens the EU, in case we all vote to leave.

    And if the UK does leave, other countries won't be far behind.

    The easiest way to sort this out is for the European Commission to give Spain an ultimatum.

    If Spain doesn't want to abide by EU rules and laws, then it obviously can also do without EU aid.

    The Spanish government will have no choice (if they want to survive) but to start behaving.

    Everything else is just hot air.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anbar

    Ceuta and Melilla

    'nuff said.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Nostros

    @LEPRecon very true

    lol the UN won't do anything, I say Britain parks a big t45 in Gib and Falklands, simply wait for something to happen, sick of thee f**ktards

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britishbulldog

    Lets see what we can do to make the Spanish peasants life even more unbearable.

    First, Tax all British Holiday makers £5,000 per head to holiday in any part of Spain. Thus making it impossible for the average British family or person to holiday on Spanish soil.

    What this does.

    UK holiday makers are the largest group in the world to holiday in Spain spending on average £140 per day. Within one summer season Spain see's the revenue from the British plummet, hotels cannot fill rooms and have to lay off Spanish workers all resorts have to cut back on staff in Shops, Bars and all outside seaside play areas. Spain now begins to have a unemployment crises worse than it has seen for quite some time adding to her already growing economic problems.

    Food.

    UK imports thousands of tons of fresh fruit and Vegetables from Spain along with Olive Oil and wine, making the UK Spain's largest customer by far. UK stops all trade with Spain by putting a large import tax on any item coming from Spain and begins to buy all items mentioned from country's like France, Italy Portugal.

    Spain now see's all he import industry collapsing making more and more Spanish workers unemployed.

    EU loans. UK refuses to give one euro to Spain to help her overcome her plight and puts pressure on every single EU country that has pledged support UK contribution is £11 billion Spain now see's all loans beginning to dry up. Spain now has to print money inflation sores making a loaf of bread impossible to buy.

    All 700,000 in Spain British citizens now find it impossible to live in Spain so begin to come back to the UK thus Spain now loses even their financial support that contributes to their economy.

    Spain is no destitute and bankrupt.

    UK now decides to step in and help. But with conditions. Spain has to give up all Sovereignty issues not only on Gibraltar but on all Spanish Territory.

    UK now controls Spain.

    Still want to take us on Spain? bring it on thats what I say.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Nostros

    @Britishbulldog, I agree we strangle there economy, 12 months without British money from tourism and without being able to export to the UK would totally kill them off, I disagree with this tactic but they are doing it to Gib, so well, I guess we have to reply the same way.

    Can I also get people to help the People of Catalonia who want independence they have been very supportive of Gib and geographically if they become independent could be a lifeline to Gibraltarians in future.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-Catalonia/135838166494005

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    This is excellent news! There are few things that could be better for Britain, the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar. The British position is quite clear and in accordance with the United Nations Charter. Self-determination rules, okay! Contrast this with the positions of argieland and spain. Colonialist, anti-democratic and imperialist. The world will see two corrupt, economically-deficient, incompetent, brain-dead states trying to impose their will on 33,000 people in opposition to the democratically expressed wishes of those people. And Britain WILL defend them. No matter what it takes. As far as the ICJ is concerned, Britain has offered referral to the argies on a number of occasions. Argies have ALWAYS refused. Gibraltar has suggested referral to the ICJ on a number of occasions. Spain has always refused. Why is that? Because argieland and Spain are COWARDS? Because when the FULL and ACCURATE FACTS are placed before a court, both know that they would lose? Because both know that the EVIDENCE is such that both would be revealed as LIARS? And have been LYING for years. Imagine LYING for years to the UN. How about a “simple” punishment? When argieland and spain have been shown to have been LYING for many years, EXPEL both from the UN. But the punishments should be appropriate. Let's quantify 70,000 hours of delay at the border, per day. The number of illegal incursions into BGTW. The illegal raking of the seabed. For spain, expelled for 20 years. But argieland deserves much more. LYING for about 70 years. Invasion, occupation, war. 255 British deaths. 3 Falkland Islander deaths. Improperly or un-recorded minefields. Economic warfare. Expelled for 200 years. Plus another 100 years for failing to pay its debts. And no “aid” permitted.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve-33-uk

    'Gibraltar: Britain mulls 'unprecedented' legal action against Spain - David Cameron looks to European courts after Madrid fails to revoke increased border controls - David Cameron is looking at options for unprecedented legal action against Spain over the imposition of “politically motivated and disproportionate” border checks with Gibraltar, Downing Street has said.
    It follows Madrid's decision to increase border controls at the Spanish border, which have led to delays of several hours for those travelling to and from the territory...'
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/12/gibraltar-britain-legal-action-spain

    'Tourists get caught up in Gibraltar border delays as dispute with Spain heightens - Day trippers heading to Gibraltar might think twice about visiting the British territory this summer as border spot checks are causing long delays.
    As Spain announced that it will seek to take its dispute with the UK to the UN with the support of Argentina, Spanish authorities are carrying out lengthy vehicle searches and document checks - a tactic that caused long tailbacks on both sides of the border on Saturday...'
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/12/gibraltar-britain-legal-action-spain

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/11/mapuche-conflict-in-chile-flares-up-following-the-killing-of-local-indigenous-activist#comment267868

    Crickets

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #28
    I am afraid that your suggestion to tax UK holidaymakers would be illegal under EU law, likewise you cannot tax food coming from Spain or any EU country..

    A more subtle way of dealing with the matter of food is to require ALL Spanish food imports to be directed to the Santander/Plymouth crossing. UK Borders staff would be directed to examine EVERY container lorry by requiring it to be fully unloaded. If this was done then the queue of container lorries would stretch across Spain.
    The foodstuff would have perished and be declared unfit for human consumption and dumped. Quite a financial loss for Spanish growers.
    This nothing more than the Spanish are doing at the Gib. frontier.
    The French have done this sort of thing in the past and got away with it. The EU moaned and did nothing.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 08:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #33

    Yes, at one, if memory is correct, it was Japanese electronics goods through some small Alpine town. The French tax authorities a right wily intuition. It opened Japans home market to their goods rather sharpish.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Nic

    I think the UK should help Morocco with regard to Ceuta and Mellila. And the indigenous peoples of Argentina who continuously suffer under the yoke of latin expansionist neofacsism. Finally, it is just a matter of time before Catalonia becomes an independent State.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    @35

    Hahahahaha. You can't keep your own oppressed “union” together you are dreaming up of this?

    Fix northern ireland first, then bribe the Scottish to stay (only solution now), then worry about other countries' territorial integrity.

    BTW, no indian tribe in Argentina wants independence, just better rights. Unlike in Chile, where they do want independence.

    Go aid your ally in disintegrating... LOL.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #36

    “BTW, no indian tribe in Argentina wants independence, just better rights.”

    What have you done to aid them in this? Other than highlight that they have lower rights that yourself.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    I really could not understand why Spain would want to get into bed with these deadbeat RG's.

    Then I read the IOC is meeting next month re: 2020 Olympic venues. Guess what, Madrid are vying to host. looks like it scratchy back time.

    (@32 Troll. You are abusing this site by erroneous posting. Grow up Pedro or I am going to have to report you.)

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @38 - FI_Frost

    I doubt Spain could afford to host the Olympics, even in 2020. They've managed to mismanage their economy to the point of bankruptcy, and only the EU throwing lots of money at them has stalled that outcome.

    But that money will have to be repaid at some point, it isn't a gift. So Spain should be paying it's debts off in 2020, not getting further into debt.

    @37 Porto Margaret

    Just ignore Tobias @36. He has an inferiority complex. He has tried (on various occasions) to pretend he's Amerindian (because he thinks it will strengthen his cause), yet in the next post he is blasting the Amerindians for not agreeing with Argentina.

    He is a sad attention seeker, who really is out of his depth, but does provide some entertainment, especially when he's desperately trying to persuade people that he's an intellectual.

    When he is proved wrong he then tends to try to divert the thread (as above) or try his hand at 'whataboutery', a new term coined just for him.

    Pathetic really, isn't he?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    @ 39 LEPrecon

    Indeed. It would be the funniest thing if Madrid actually wins though: cap in hand the next morning to the EU regeneration fund or something similar. How many 50 euro border tariffs does it take to host an Olympics? 7 years worth may cover the security costs and a lot more.

    I think an Rg representative is one of the Evaluation Commission for picking the host.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Faz

    Spain is in dead trouble, they never really had any indiginous industries except tourism and tomatoes. Screwdriver plants like Seat for a bit but that has all migrated East. The unemployment there is shocking and the whole of Europe where work still exists is swamped by young Spaniards seeking a life. Why on earth they are risking approbation by causing problems with Gib god only knows, they can't afford to jeapordise British business in all its forms.

    As for Tobi the teen troll who doesn't even live in the axis of weasel I don't know why on earth anyone argues with the rubbish he spouts, he is incapable of any sort of reasoned argument.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    To the UK posters:
    Why isn't there an organized country wide boycott of Spanish and Argentinian goods and travel?
    It would be pretty simple to devastate the Wine industry in Mendoza. You barely see any Rg Malbec in the USA since we took away the trade preferences.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    $1* God you are an old fart!! arent you??!! Try doing some research before that shit comes out of your mouth. www.icex.technologyreview.com

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    42
    I quite agree

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    My post was directed at *41.
    *42 Oh Man!! you don´t sound American. Americans are not that silly, like your comments. Boycotts work both ways, bro!!!!

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    45 Ozzie Sunshine

    OMG you don't sound Austrslian !!
    Oh, never mind, we discarded that pretence ages ago, didn't we!

    Looked at your link:
    “New technologies in Spain is a multi-part series highlighting Spanish innovation and is produced by Technology Review’s custom-publishing division in partnership with the Trade Commission of Spain.

    Spain is fast becoming a leader in innovation and generating advanced solutions in the industries of aerospace, renewable energies, water treatment, rail, biotechnology, industrial machinery and civil engineering. The country is determined to deepen and intensify its productive specialization in industries that depend on technology and innovation.”

    It seems that all the projects are under licence or directed by foreign corporations.
    Not sure how much Spanish 'innovation' there really is, but it is laudable that Spain is trying hard to promote themselves, according to the Trade Commission of Spain.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 11:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #42

    There may well be an informal one if this nonsense goes on. Individuals will make a choice on purchases and probable pick a suitable alternative.

    Unfortunately there is no substitute for a tasty chorizo.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *46 yeah right!! either you can´t read or you are totally wackers!! Try again. Try this for size: www.arabianbusiness.com/saudi-high-speed-rail-set-for-2014-completion. and this does not include the metro which is worth another few billions...

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    @45 Argy Sunshine

    Noticeable increase in the number Spanish coming to work in the UK in the last few years: purely based on the number on new Tapas bars in my home city.

    But real negative impact to Spain long term is the brain drain to Germany for sure: will they ever come back?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @47 Porto Margaret

    I disagree. Nothing beats a nice Cumberland sausage. :)

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skåre-Vuggevise

    Bring it on. Let them take it to the court – it is what successive British governments have openly challenged them to do – and meanwhile, Britain, the King of Morocco and the 11 million 'Spaniards' who don't actually want to a part of Spain will be rubbing their hands with glee :)

    Of course, it will all come to naught when Spain realises that it will totally undermine their own position in Ceuta and Melilla, Catalonia, the Canary Islands and the Basque Country.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #50

    Right that's me upgraded. Thanks .

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    www.arabianbusiness.com/saudi-spanish-group-wins-9-4bn-haramain-rail-deal-427270
    *49 well I don´t think the Spaniards want tapas bars in Spain..you can keep them. They are after more Industrial businesses....The ones in Germany are sending back money to set up their businesses in Spain in the future and they will be bringing GERMAN SKILLS WITH THEM...BOTH NATIONS WIN.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #53 und 48
    Ich möchte darauf hinweisen das Ihre 'URL links' leider nicht funktionieren. Ein 'upgrade of skills' ist vieleicht angebracht.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skåre-Vuggevise

    @48 I'm not sure that Spanish high-speed rail is much of an advert right now.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    @53 Argy Sunshine

    It all sounds a bit wacky to me I have to say, sending out your freshest, best'ist working resources to the developed world as cheap labour in the hope of some Western Union money transfer back to the fatherland.

    But hey, look at the Philippines they kinda cool about it. Best stay clear for the Gulf mind, they treat you menials like sh!t.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    .washingtonpost.com/world/spanish-struggle-amid-unemployment-crisis/2013/08/11/4e17466e-da63-11e2-b418-9dfa095e125d_story_3.html
    This article appears in the Washington Post NOT the UK press and is sympathetic to the unemployed in Spain.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Truth PaTroll

    Well, lets see here:

    Isn't Spain cutting its budgets?

    Isn't Spain not devaluing their currency?

    Isn't Spain far more secure judicially for investment?

    Aren't those three things (frugality, no inflation, judicial safety?), what people here claim is the key to prosperity?

    So what happened???

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Faz

    Auzzie insect. All screwdriver plants aren't they? DYOR! Hardly any innovation whatsoever. Industries that have to be located there to access the market. Cheap labour. Same as RGland.. its best not to swallow all the marketing propaganda you read on the web, you have to know the country.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    Bye ALL!! Last man out turn off the lights!!

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 01:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GFace

    Oh Fazfazfazfazfaz... it's not just any screwdriver -- it's a screwdriver with a 6-and-HALF spline head. The patents have already been awarded! They tried an 8 1/2-spline but innovation-attacking Italians complained. Whatever. True there aren't any screws to match it yet. But the rent-seekers in the Europarliament are going to make it mandatory across the EU and ban all others. Say goodbye to Philips and Flathead screws of years gone by and sneer at those upstart hex and robinson bolts. I've seen the future, and it's not quite an 7 but by george, it's darned better than a 6. Anything less is just watered down vodka and orange juice.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    @58 Troll
    So Spain is an economic success story?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    How amuzing that the anti EU Cameron now has only the European Parliament to turn into.....laughing stock of Europe...Referendum to quit the EU but now he turns to the EU for hrlp..what a wanker....LOL LOL LOL

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    @63 Sunshine
    Spanish democracy http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/23/newsid_2518000/2518825.stm

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    TWIMC......

    And the English Navy is on its way to Gibraltar……
    The HM(ousegrey)S Westminster, the HM(mousegrey)S Illustrious, the HM(mousegrey)S Montrose and the HM(mousegrey)S Bulwark…..
    Will them pirates terror bomb the town of Algeciras as they did with Copenhagen in 1807?

    The 2013 roar of the English Pussycat.......
    Chuckle chuckle©

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *&4 Try again !! What has 1980 spain got to do with spain in 2013??!!!!???!!
    “ Let´s take our case to the EU” says Cameron after all the EU bashing LOL LOL ...what a hypocrite.......The Brits never wanted anything to do with the EU, BUT NOW......LET´S GO TO THE EU!!..BLOODY LOOSERS! lol lol lol lol lol

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    1981. 'Bloody Loosers' - is there a game on?
    @65 Sunshine goes on about 1981 and calls it history and then Think comes on and talks about 1807. Are you Laurel and Hardy?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    As I said earlier this is distraction politics.

    We know Cameron is pro EU, in spite of his supposed anti EU waffle. This is a golden opportunity for him to try and cast the EU membership in a good light to his mostly sceptical party and country. Sort of “the EU can be good for Britain”. It might hood wink some for a while, but it won't work in the long run.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve-33-uk

    Gibraltarian news...
    'Govt welcomes that the Spanish Foreign Minister is considering referring the issues in dispute to the relevant international tribunals - ‘The Government is not surprised by reports that Spain will join with Argentina. - The Government says it ‘notes that the weekend press and television in Spain has been full of misleading allegations against Gibraltar. Each of these will be challenged by the Government in correspondence as well as in public statements designed to reverse the negative impression that such allegations may have given.
    ‘Separately, the Government welcomes that the Spanish Foreign Minister, Mr Margallo appears to be considering referring the issues in dispute between Gibraltar, the United Kingdom and Spain to relevant international legal tribunals. The Chief Minister, Fabian Picardo, challenged Spain to refer to the relevant international tribunals matters related to the limits of British Gibraltar Territorial Waters and the issue of the application of the inalienable right of Self-Determination to the people of Gibraltar. The Government welcomes that Mr Margallo appears to have now realised that this is the rational and civilised way of resolving disputes. That is to be preferred to the illegitimate and disproportionate measures taken at the border in the past weeks where thousands of innocent individuals have been the victims of unwarranted political pressure...'
    http://vox.gi/local/7832-govt-welcomes-that-the-spanish-foreign-minister-is-considering-referring-the-issues-in-dispute-to-the-relevant-international-tribunals.html

    'Gibraltar: Spain Defiant As Border Row Hots Up - Britain considers legal action against Spain over extra border checks with Gibraltar as it sends warships to the Mediterranean. - Spain has said it will not back down over extra checks at the border with Gibraltar despite the threat of legal action by the UK...'
    http://vox.gi/local/7832-govt-welcomes-that-the-spanish-foreign-minister-is-considering-referring-the-issues-in-dispute-to-the-relevant-international-tribunals.html

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #65 Yapper

    Really….. English Navy…. that was so yesterday. Let’s not do that.

    You are just embarrassing yourself once again.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    TWIMC

    The English Navy is on its way...
    The biiiiiiiig question now is...
    Where are Harry & Willy?...
    Chuckle chuckle©...

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • screenname

    @60 aussie sunshine: “Bye ALL!! Last man out turn off the lights!!”

    Do you still have electricity in Arjuntina? I didn't think your mob could tell if the light switch was on or off...

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #71 Yapper™

    I don't know where are they?

    Tick tock®

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Think
    Are you Laurel or Hardy? Willy - Are you trying to tell everybody something?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Steve-33-uk

    'U.N. advisor accuses Spain of double standards over Ceuta and Melilla - A political adviser on Arab affairs at the UN in New York has accused the Spanish of operating “double standards” by dismissing Moroccan sovereignty claims on Ceuta and Melilla as unfounded yet pursuing their own claims over Gibraltar...'
    http://gbc.gi/news/2210/u.n.-political-advisor-accuses-spain-of-double-standards

    'Ashley Fox claims Margallo using Gibraltar dispute to 'position himself' - Conservative MEP for Gibraltar, Ashley Fox, has welcomed that the UK is considering legal action against Spain. Speaking on BBC Radio Five Live on Monday evening, Mr Fox said Spain’s actions are unlawful and disproportionate, and he expressed the hope that the British Government will issue proceedings in the European Court of Justice as soon as possible...'
    http://gbc.gi/news/2210/u.n.-political-advisor-accuses-spain-of-double-standards

    'Gibraltar dispute dominates Spanish newspapers - The escalating diplomatic crisis over Gibraltar has dominated Spain’s daily newspapers in recent days, with searing front page headlines denouncing British “intimidation” of Madrid...'
    http://gbc.gi/news/2210/u.n.-political-advisor-accuses-spain-of-double-standards

    'Gibraltar Case: Is the backfire?'
    http://gbc.gi/news/2210/u.n.-political-advisor-accuses-spain-of-double-standards

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    The Treaty of Utrecht says that Gibraltar is Britain's 'to hold forever, without impediment or exception whatsoever.'

    In 2010, Ban Ki-Moon said, 'The World's 16 remaining territories that still do not govern themselves must have complete freedom in deciding their future status,' the Secretary-General told a forum on decolonization.

    Seems that Spain is stuck in between a rock and a hard place.

    I'm still puzzled as to why Spain has to venture into the third-world find support.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #76

    “I'm still puzzled as to why Spain has to venture into the third-world find support.”

    Despardooooooos.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    74 alan

    No he isn't either..... I think you need to ask the question:-

    Think and sock puppet A_Voice...... “Are you Dumb or Dumber?”

    You decide......

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    TWIMC

    This could easily evolve into a Win - Win - Win situation......

    Ceuta and Melilla back to Morocco.....
    Gibraltar back to Spain...
    Malvinas back to Argentina...

    Everybody happy!

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    @78
    I really want to ask A_Voice about his Dad.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #79 Yapper

    Come don't sell yourself short. Let's go the whole way.

    Spain back to the Arabs...
    Argentina back to the Native tribes...

    Everybody Ecstatic.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    79 Think

    WELL DONE THINK!!!! your two favourite fantasies on one webpage

    The “English Navy” ( Word to the wise..... It does not exsist )

    The “Malvinas” ( Please see above )
    80 alan

    LOL....... I didn't think he had one..... I just thought he was a genetic experiment go horribly wrong.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    What is the British government telling the world by sending over this silly navy patrol.that...
    Spain has done everything legally therefore we can´t fight it in its own turf with international law so we send down the navy........C.R.A.Z.Y.
    Spain has already won the legal battle......

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britworker

    What all of this saying to me loud and clear is 1. I will never forgive the Labour Party for leaving us without a carrier and putting us in so much debt. 2. UKIP has my vote in 2015. 3. Spain teaming up with Argentina should be viewed as an unforgivable act by the UK and deserves the most severe consequences.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Gordo1

    The Treaty of Utrecht is quite clear that the area of the El Peñon - the Rock - was ceded in perpetuity to Britain. But, in those far off days, there were no maritime limits and/or laws as we know them today and, thus, Spain, not unsurprisingly, is claiming that Gibraltar has no maritime limits. Furthermore, the airport area, which formerly was a racecourse, is not considered by Spain to be included in the cession.

    Let's see who blinks first! Meantime, can someone please explain to me what the “English Navy” is?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *84 If you vote UKIP you leave the EU. I don´t think the Gibs would be to happy with that move.....They will loose all the privileges they have now...

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Porto Margaret

    #83 You seem a little disoriented....have you been drinking?

    Because you did announced (#60) ......Bye ALL!! Last man out turn off the lights!!

    and now you post some confused babble. Sober up.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (85) Gordo1

    You ask politely...:
    “ Can someone please explain to me what the “English Navy” is?”

    I say...:
    Is like the Royal English Army.................... but with ships......

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    I would like to take a second to thank Merco Press for being a great newspaper where there is no censorship.Something very rare in todays world. I have never come across anything like it, In many newspapers you write a comment and it is censored but here no way:
    Well done Merco Press. Congratulations!!!

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    Spain has “won the legal battle” - So what has actually changed - apart from the fact that Spain has got itself a couple of thousand Euro's which it will have to pay to its own citizens who cann't get to work. Going to lose more if Gib stops paying the pensions to the Spaniards. And of course the Fishermen who cann't fish in Gib waters. Hmm, yes Spain has won.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *87 (hic) (hic) (hic)

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britworker

    The biggest joke about this is how Spain thinks its citizens will get to walk freely across the border, yet the Gibraltar subjects will have to pay? How sustainable do they think it is going to be.

    @89
    You appear to have engrained anti-British feelings, quite unlike most of my Australian friends and relatives where such things are just kept to the sports fields. Your remarks and comments also follow a very similar vein to the RG comments on here, quite indistinguishable actually.
    Why would an Australian have such bitter feelings towards the people of Gibraltar and their right to choose their own future, as they have been doing for 300 years?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    @92
    the sunshine puppet gave up the pretence of being a Australian a long time ago.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *92 On the contrary, I love everything British. From its History, culture,its politics, its monarchy and its people!! and its fish and chips... I visit your great country whenever I can which is frequent. What I don´t like is the way Picardo in Gib is behaving!! You don´t throw concrete blocks into the sea without knowing perfectly clear what to expect: And what he expected was to confront Spain and Great Britain....so you see mate, I have nothing against Great Britain but I do not respect Gib and what they stand for...

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    You know it really rubs me the wrong way when Rgs use “Mate” and “Bro”
    in their posts.
    What is wrong with them?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *95 Here comes yankee poodle!! LOL
    What state are you from??, bro!!
    What a bunch!! LOL

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @94 aussie sunshine

    But Spain has been throwing blocks of concrete into the sea for years.

    And what Gibraltar does in Gibraltarian waters is NO ONE'S business but theirs.

    Gibraltar is protecting IT'S fishing grounds from ILLEGAL Spanish fishermen. These illegal Spanish fishermen are also the reason Spain dropped all those concrete blocks into the sea.

    So you can see the complete hypocrisy of Spain's position here.

    As for Gibraltar they are exercising their rights as a FREE country has the right to do.

    It is Spain that is acting illegally. And Spain that is being taken to court. And Spain that will lose, ultimately, because they ARE acting illegally.

    And then when the EU court fines them for their illegal blockade, they will no doubt cry and blubb at the unfairness of it all. Yet they are the architect of their own misery.

    ALL of this is because the Spanish government is DESPERATELY trying to divert the Spanish people's attention AWAY from their corruption and ineptness.

    And NOT one thing Spain has done will help the people of Spain one iota. It won't give them jobs. It won't make their debts disappear and it won't raise their profile on the international stage.

    Spain will get the reputation of being bullies and sore losers. And losers is all their government is.

    The people of Spain are better off without them.

    FREEDOM and SELF-DETERMINATION are the things Gibraltar is fighting for.

    Spain is advocating SLAVERY and OPPRESSION.

    You must be so proud supporting them in this way.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    Liar

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    @94
    One Spanish fishing vessel was potentially affected by this reef.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10910178

    The fisherman who was illegally fishing in Gibraltar waters was doing so with under-size nets, which would not be allowed even in Spanish waters.

    The Spanish have even more artificial reefs.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10910178

    Gibraltar is right, say Greenpeace and Spanish ecologists.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10910178

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *97 Great Britain would NEVER HAVE thrown concrete blocks into the waters....They would have thrown the book at Spain and have won.....The English way..
    but these Gibs don´t think like the British, their main purpose was to confront Spain and Great Britain..which unfortunately they have done..and Cameron has fallen for it......I cannot find respect for Gib, tax dodgers,have never paid Income tax in their lives, mafia dealings.....They produce nothing whatsoever....What is British about it?? Great Britain a nation of hard workers,industrialists,inventors,discoverers,great writers...what has Gibraltar got in common with Great Britain?? nil.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    100 Sunshine
    Speaking for myself I am lazy, agriculturalist, shoddy, sloppy etc. I cann't be British then. And you are still a liar.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    @100
    As you well know PAYE is paid in Gibraltar.

    https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/on-business/tax-and-social-insurance

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #65
    Is it Think or Thicko....the latter has a more realistic ring of truth.

    I listened to a Spanish Minister being interviewed on the BBC's radio 4 about this “visit”. He said that“ the Spanish government were contacted about this months ago and gladly gave permission for the RN to visit their counterparts in the Spanish navy. As NATO allies they would be made most welcome” I am sure hat the RN would welcome the Spanish navy on a courtesy visit to the UK. Unfortunately, Spanish naval vessels have a habit of sinking when they near British waters.
    They are probably not tough enough to stand up to our seas.
    The same fate seems to befall the Spanish trawlers off the west of Scotland. As soon as Autumn arrives, our rescue helicopters seem to be working overtime rescuing the crews from injury or sinking.
    This we do quite cheerfully as we hold no grudge against the Spanish .

    You are obviously colour blind. Mausgrau was the camouflage colour applied to Luftwaffe F-4's in the 1980's. I presume you are inferring that anything painted this col0ur MUST be manned by a bunch of girlies ?. Argentine navy colours are grey applied to a base coat of yellow. This outer coat is obviously applied very thinly as the yellow comes through when they set out to sea.

    #83
    Why don't you try to rent a brain...you certainly need one if your comments are anything to go by.
    “Spain has already won the legal battle......”
    Please direct me to the EU or ICJ ruling that confirms this or is that one of your revelations handed down from the Almighty.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *101 What a shame!! Is that the image of the new pom?! Blimey!!
    No wonder all your women are heading for Jamaica...dont blame them

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    See my email on the other thread, I will wait for 5 minutes.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Anyone else notice the resemblance between aussie sunshine and A_Voice?

    Could they by any chance be related?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    @107
    It will soon disappear just like doveoverdover and co.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Trunce!

    I sense a cunning stunt - a pincer attack by Espania & Espaniarge, aided and abetted by Latam and Galactic alliance.

    What better than a Coup de grâce, delivered to the English usurper pirates, during the stewardship of CFK, whilst languishing in UN limelight.

    However, perhaps for UK, it will be a - 'two for the price of one' bargain.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • screenname

    @107 HansNiesund: “Anyone else notice the resemblance between aussie sunshine and A_Voice?”

    yup

    @108 agent999: “It will soon disappear just like doveoverdover...”

    Just thinking of the daddy puppet earlier today and how it was far more amusing than any of thinkos other efforts. El capitano showed promise but thinko seemed to lose his interest.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Carrick1

    1 Spanish fisherman, under-sized nets and right beside the Gibraltar airport! If he has to fish there because he always has, why can't he change to long lines and not bottom trawl the seabed to a marine desert. Since the disputed area is very close to Gibraltar coastline, hardly pushing the boundaries, so Madrid government obviously just using this as an agenda.
    What would be ironic, if due to the conservation value, his catch went up after a year or so, if prepared to long line.
    I don't think much of Margallo's wisdom, or lack of, in going to BA.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • screenname

    Has anybody actually seen anything on the BBC that does not claim all this started with Gibraltar dumping some blocks in the water?

    Something stinks at the BBC

    ...or did I imagine the SPANISH asking for the EU protected zone, SPANISH protecting overfishing in the same zone, SPANISH kidnapping Gibraltarians line fishing off Gibraltar, SPANISH firing rubber bullets during a high speed chase off Gibraltar...

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AT THE BBC????????????

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britworker

    @104
    What do you expect them to do, they have no farmland to exploit, they also employ a few thousands Spaniards on the rock. They have tourism and fishing, what do you expect them to do?

    There is something very mixed up about you, it's your sincerity and consistency. I just don't understand why an Australian would have such strong feelings about Gibraltar.

    Schizophrenia?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Redrow

    @79 Think

    “This could easily evolve into a Win - Win - Win”

    Don't confuse movement with action.
    Spain threatening to gang up with Argentina might make you feel like you are making progress but you would be wrong. Merely threatening someone with legal action is utterly futile, either initiate the action or keep quiet. Threatening something you can't follow through on looks very weak indeed.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • José Malvinero

    Look what this asshole says: that ”self-determination (false-self determination) is above territorial integration”.
    Really, this woman, is an idiot? Let's see if someone believes encroaches on their home and the thieves then vote to remain living at home, to see how you feel.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    Wow good one José!

    Try to get your head around the difference between international law and national law. Your analogy is nonsensical.

    Current international law upholds the right of self-determination for Gibraltar and Falkland Islands.

    And there is nothing that you or your ilk with their inane comments, that have no basis in logic, can do to change that.

    Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands are part of the UK. There is nothing Spain or Argentina can do about it. They have been unable to do anything now for hundreds of years. The UK is still richer, bigger and stronger militarily, financially and politically than Spain or Argentina will ever be.

    The UN recognises UK sovereignty over these two entities but it only recognises a sovereignty DISPUTE by Spain and Argentina.

    You can write your asanine and yawn inspiring comments for the next few decades and it will not change a single fact on the ground. The only change in sovereignty for these two places will happen at the behest of their inhabitants and when it finally does change from what it is today; I hate to tell you that it won't be a change to Spanish or Argentina sovereignty, but a declaration of independence.

    So take your talk about homes and thieves and your woefully ignorant take on international law and mull over being a loser.

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    “Ozzie” @ 104 must be TTT , his rants are so childish !!

    :-D

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Islander1

    Think- could you please just name ONE current English Navy vessel? The ones you mentioned all fly the flag of the Royal Navy and the flag of the Untited Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland.
    Oh - and the largest of those leaving UK is due to make a courtesy call soon at a Spanish naval base - and has been for some time - same as the Spanish Min of defence has confirmed that Royal Navy vessels naturally call at gibraltar at times and it has known for some time that a British frigate was due to next week - it is not a secret all open and planned for many months, hell the Spanish Navy will most likley be part of the exercising fleet!
    Oh and who does this mythical “Royal Army” belong to? There is no such thing There is the British Army - that represents and is made up of servicemen and women from the countries that together form the United Kigdom of Britain and Northern Ireland.
    Now - break the Army down to regiments and yes the word “Royal” appears in some:
    Royal Regiment of Wales
    Royal Scots
    Royal Irish Regt
    Royal Welsh Fuseliers etc etc.
    I cannot think of any English Regts that start with Royal - but guess there are some?

    Do please try and get your facts correct and stop burbling this incessant drivel - you are better than that!

    PS assume you know the difference between RN-RCAN-RAN-RNZN?

    Aug 12th, 2013 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    Please EVERYONE go easy on Think!

    Can't any of you recognise early onset dementia?
    Probably not helped by malnutrition after trying to survive on an Argentine pension.

    So be nice.

    Now Think, tell us all about the big, bad mice grey ships of the English Navy that you have been seeing.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 12:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • El capitano

    I just love to see these Spanish loud mouthed cowards run their mouths if they think they can get a dig in at the UK....They seem to forget that the UK does in fact contribute more to the Spanish hospitality business than any other country...Maybe the Brits should really get serious about “boycotting” Spain and maybe give Greece a little help.After all the Greeks are so much more friendly to the Brits and appreciate the past help that the UK has given to them.The Spaniards however just like the Argies are nothing less that “wannerbe” school yard bullies..And will continue until the UK responds...any history buff will only nod and say...“Yup those idiots just did'nt know when to stop”...Kinda sad when one thinks about it,but when one considers it was'nt so long ago that Spain was the last Facist Gov: in Eourpe...some thing very similar to what Arjuntina is today..Ring a bell..??

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    *rolls eyes*

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 12:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (118) C'mon Islander1!!!
    Stop pulling my leg...
    There is no EN (English Navy)......, you say..
    There is no REA (Royal English Army)....., you say...
    Next you'll tell me that there is no EAF (English Air Force)...!!!

    Chuckle chuckle chuckle©

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 01:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    115JoséMalevolence

    ”Look what this asshole says: that ”self-determination (false-self determination) is above territorial integration”.
    Really, this woman, is an idiot? Let's see if someone believes encroaches on their home and the thieves then vote to remain living at home, to see how you feel.“

    José
    You moron, your silly arguments were laughed out oc this forum a year ago.

    How can you believe that you can walk into a civilian community of 150 years, steal people's freedom and their homes, and have them accept your 'might is right' to be legit ownership??

    Pretty decisive that you were taught a lesson under those same rules.

    Now 30 years later, you cry that it is ”unfair” and not legitimate.

    Will you never stop repeating this over and over??

    Idiot

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 01:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • agent999

    ”My Rock of Gibraltar (Not Yours)”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324769704579006771918735740.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 02:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Musky

    @11 tooyoungtodie
    Love that. Yep.

    If Argentina combine forces with Spain, you'll have two countries wanting to deny rights to sovereign democratic countries. Not for one minute can they succeed. Britain has been in Gibraltar for 300 years not 3 weeks, Germany itself as a single entity is only 142 years old, Argentina is only 198 years old, similar dates for whole of latam.

    @112
    BBC will report what it finds, one suspects both governments are de-escalating so no new news is being generated.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • toooldtodieyoung

    84 Britworker

    errmmm. I think that you will find that Came-moron and his little b*tch Nick Clegg got rid of our last aircraft. Remember?? It was they that paid off The “Ark Royal” and scrapped it in a piece of forward thinking. It reminds me of John Nott's defense white paper of 1981 “Any out-of-area amphibious operations were considered unlikely. The entire Royal Marine amphibious force was in jeopardy of being disbanded and the sale of Intrepid and Fearless was mooted”

    It would seem that the Concervative government is still not willing to learn from it's own past mistakes.

    But you are, of course, right. The UKIP party does seem to be the only credible party in the UK at the moment. The rest seem to bounce from embarrassing U-turn to public humiliation and back again.

    UKIP gets my vote.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • screenname

    @120
    @122

    Chuckle

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    @think

    And Patagonia back to the indigenous tribes....you first...thought not!

    You are a genocidal colonialist stink, and a hypocrite.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 05:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Escoses Doido

    I see we have a new 'think' type handle on here - aussie sunshine.......

    Same agenda, slightly different angle, but the writing style gives them away....

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 05:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Woz

    Aussie, Aussie, Aussie - definitely not our “Aussie sunshine” .........Comical, worth a laugh !

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 06:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Welsh Wizard

    I can sort of understand Argentina's position as the historicity is not as clear as one would like. As for Spain, they sold it to us ages ago. If they want, they can buy it back with all that lovely cash they have....

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 07:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    If the UK withdraws from Gibraltar, Gibraltar automatically passes to Spanish hands, says the article X of the Treaty.
    What is the problem of integration of the Islanders to Argentina, respecting their way of life and culture?
    And everybody happy!!!

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 08:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Welsh Wizard

    @132 I think that the Islanders are somewhat sceptical about their way of life and culture being respected. People will often state how other nationalities who have moved to Argentina and farer ok but there was never the animosity towards then as with the Islanders. Speaking to people I meet in Argentina, you do hear the phrases “fucking gypsy squatters” and talk of how, when they get the islands back, they'll kick them off of force they way of life on them. This hardly gives the islanders reason to expect the be treated well. Afterall, this is an important topic, it isn';t about land, or egos, it is about people and their lives. That is fundametally the most important thing and it is very difficult to force a way of life on people who don't want it. When you do, it tends to end in protest, revolt and armed uprising.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 08:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @132

    If nothing would change, what on earth is all the fuss about?

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @133 Most Argentines agree a peaceful solution.
    Perhaps a shared sovereignty, do not know.
    There are families of islanders and Argentina on the mainland and in the islands.
    I know that a solution is possible.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    Malvinese

    What is wrong with the islands not passing to Argentina, and Argentina minding their own business?

    What is wrong with Argentina withdrawing from Patagonia and making it a land for the indigenous folk that weren't slaughtered in 1880?

    A solution is very possible. self determination is a fundamental right for all as prescribed by the UN charter.

    Argentina withdraws that right from the islanders, but uses it for itself to warrant its genocidal claim over Patagonia.

    The solution is simple, if you believe your rants, I.e, 19th century usurption, implanted populations etc etc, then you MUST immediately withdraw from Patagonia, indeed the rest of Argentina should be ceded to the Amerindians who will promise to “respect their culture and way of life”

    Once you have done this, we can take the special case of the Falklands to an Independent body (ICJ) for a once and final judgement.

    But, whilst Argentina still has sovereignty over land it usurped in a blatant act of 19th century colonialism, and maintains their ownership through an implanted population, their claims to the Falklands just appear hypocritical bullshit and 21st century colonialism.

    Argentina MUST withdraw and make full reparation to the Patagonians first.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @136 Monkey: You are an intelligent person. You know that your comparison does not is invalid with the natives.
    You know then that all America would be in the same situation as Argentina.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 09:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @137

    All America IS in the same situation as Argentina, but only Argentina is unable to recognise it.

    Or all America with the exception of the Falklands, rather. Nobody was killed so that territory could be seized. Is that what your problem is?

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    @137

    Yes, but the rest of America know self-determination is the only way.

    It is only Argentina that wishes to apply it when it suits them and disregard it when it doesn't.

    The Falklands belong to the islanders, Patagonia belongs to Argentina, Texas belongs to the US....

    if you want some mythical (not even genuine) incident in 1833 undermines modern day sovereignty and self determination, then there are a thousand cases stronger than the Falklands to work through, starting with Patagonia, and continuing right the way through the Americas, Africa, Europe and Asia.

    As you recognise virtually the whole world has weaker sovereignty claims over their homeland than those arriving on empty (all bar 50 rapists and mutineers who'd been there 2 months) islands.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @138Hans: repeat your comparison is not valid.
    All America IS in the same situation as Argentina, therefore, the comparison is not valid.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    Your claim that the islanders do not have self-determination because they are implanted is invalid.

    All America IS in the same situation as the islanders, therefore, the comparison is not valid.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GFace

    @141, Dude, the whole friggin world is in the same situation. This really is pathetic, Malvinense. If you aren't living around the horn of Africa, you are an implanted immigrant. If the Islanders have to go, so do the Argentine and for that matter most of the inhabitants of the western hemisphere, including some first nation folk were weren't part of the first indeterminate wave and I'm sure some hardcore Greenpeacers would like even for THEM to go back over the straight, too.

    Spaniards and Argentines don't get a magic waiver just because they're bitter and want to make other people miserable out of hateful racist colonialist spite (Or lets face it, just need a diversion from their own governments' failings).

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Skåre-Vuggevise

    @65 Think

    Oh, grow up you festering halfwit.

    It is such a hostile act that - as reported by the left-of-centre El Pais and confirmed by Mariano Rajoy - the exercise was planned months ago and the Royal Naval ships will not only be berthing in Cádiz, but will actually be exercising with the Spanish navy's Serviola class patrol boat Centinela.

    Do you seriously think Spain would be inviting the Roayl Navy to berth in Cádiz, and exercise with the Spanish Navy, if it was viewed as anything other than routine?

    People like you really ought to run their preposterous little conspiracy theories through some sort of basic credibility check before the lay their stupefying vacuity bare for all to see … and laugh at.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (143) Skåre-Vuggevise

    As a half Dane you should know the story......

    The double crossing goddams English Pirates sailed into the Øresund passing the mighty cannons of Kronborg Castle (Hamlets Castle for the Anglo Turnips) whilst wawing as friends....
    A couple of weeks later their commited the first terror bombing in history of a defenceless capital city......

    The above is not a “preposterous little conspiracy theory”, just plain history......

    Educate yourself....
    http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B8benhavns_bombardement

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 02:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *143 “festering halfwit” LOL LOL
    Did you guys have any friends?? or did you bombard everybody on sight?? including burning down the White House!!

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine and Think
    Log on and what do I find - Laurel and Hardy. Laurel going on about something before the Napoleonic Wars (I think Napoleon was doing a bit more damage) and Hardy going on about the War of 1812 - ok Hardy to which country is the war of 1812 quite important - it is not UK or USA. By the way you are still a liar and I can put too.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #144
    Yes, this happened 200 years ago. About 1400 years ago, the Danes invaded Britain. I think we have forgiven them for that.
    1945, British forces liberated most of Denmark from Nazi German occupation........AS YOU PUT IT ..EDUCATE YOURSELF.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    @140
    Malvinense

    Why do the majority of Vernet's settlers in the mid-late 1820s being black slaves and the voluntary British or Germans (ie mostly born in Europe) that made up the majority of Vernet's early settlement, considered by Argentina as 'not implanted'?

    Yet settlers born in Europe (mostly Scottish and Englishmen) that arrived (also voluntarily) in the Falkland Islands are considered by Argentina as 'implanted.'

    This does not make any logical sense to so perhaps you could explain in precise terms why either:
    Both sets of voluntary British settlers (pre and post 1833) were implanted or not implanted.

    And what about the military only Spanish garrison on the Falklands during the late 1700s and early 1800s?

    If their troops went home after a tour of duty, they were clearly implanted, especially if they were born in Spain.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *146 My you blokes are so alone in the world!! Europeans can´t stand the sight of you...Obama has no interest in you..and Central and South america..well... you know the answer to that.....

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    Nice to know you speak fot the world - your not ban ki-moon are you?
    Liar ©

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    *150 No! I don´t like useless d..... h.......!!

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @149

    I know it's pearls before swine, but here's another contribution to your education anyway.

    http://www.globescan.com/commentary-and-analysis/press-releases/press-releases-2013/277-views-of-china-and-india-slide-while-uks-ratings-climb.html

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    Why do so many Argentinians/Spaniards leave their country. Let you take the 1st guess.
    Liar ©

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    (147) Clyde15

    Keep out of your Viking masters conversation, you peasant!
    ;-)

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    They want to get away from people like you.
    Liar ©

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    Your the Bravest of the Brave.
    Liar ©

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    Comment removed by the editor.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 04:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • alan

    Sunshine
    That's why you are on here. Sorry, I'm off to the pub.
    Liar ©

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Islander1

    Think - quite clearly you have no answer and no evidence as you know yourself there is no such thing as the English Navy as there is also no such thing as an English Air Force (never was either) nor Royal Army.

    So sad - I always had thought you were superior and reasonably intelligent - but no - your line is down alongside the likes of Marcos,Raul and the other silly idiots who still pretend civilans were evicted in 1833.

    Oh - and it was the British Navy that bombarded Denemark as well

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 05:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    Ozzie sunstroke

    Why do you keep posting,
    “Comment removed by the editor.”??

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @141 No, the Islanders are not in the same situation as America.
    They arrived after a theft perpetrated by a state that recognized the state independence harmed by treaty, so the comparison is not valid.

    @148 Pete Bog Argentina considers implanted the islanders, because they arrived after the usurpation.
    If the UK regarded the islands are British, then should follow the diplomat path. (This in 1829-1833 etc.)
    Anyway I think on the good will of people to reach an agreement.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    163 Mal Troll

    “Anyway I think on the good will of people to reach an agreement.”

    Sure, what do you have to lose? You have nothing now, and you don't value your pride - begging, crying etc.

    The inhabitants and rightful owners have already reached a 98% agreement with the UK, to maintain their current relationship for now, and reserve the right to become fully-independent at a time of their choosing.

    A peaceful ' settlement ' ( double-entendre) that demonstrates “good will”.

    :-)

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    @163 Malvi.

    I've got some guy from the Qom on the phone. He says he wants your house back. What shall I tell him?

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    Tell him an illegal vote has been taken inside the house and the house now has a new owner.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Falkland Islands

    To all the argie trolls, if you love the falklands so much, why don't you come and live here, you are all welcome. You never know, you might even end up loving it so much you could end up having Falkland status as a lovely Brit! Then you will be saying “can't those idiots over the water stop whining”

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 09:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @167 very good, very good, his words somewhat hard but leaves the door open to hope.

    Aug 13th, 2013 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    Malvinese

    You. Are seriously saying that your theft of Patagonia, incurring the genocide of tens of thousands of natives, then filling it with Latinos and claiming self-determination is not:

    A) 19th century colonialism
    B) usurption
    C) an implanted population

    But:

    The eviction of 50 militia, rapists, murderers and mutineers, who'd been on the Falkland islands for 2 months in 1832 is?

    You need to seek medical help!

    As far as Vestiges point is concerned, he is correct, the QOMs have lost their homes because of a vote...I am glad he sees that if the Falklands vote is illegal, so must every Latino vote in Argentina be.

    Your hypocrisy is gobsmacking!!

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 01:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    @ 166 Vestige

    So you have just outed Malvinense (and yourself) as a pair of deluded hypocrites no?

    Oh dear, you haven't really thought that one through have you.

    Case closed.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 03:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • monxus

    There is not a UN resolution that propose self-determination for the islanders. Quite the opposite, the UN charter states that any attempt aimed at partial or total disruption of territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes of self-determination. This implies that in order to be implemented, self-determination must at least meet two conditions: 1) must be invoked by a people and, 2) It must not affect the territorial integrity of a State. The latter is not satisfied in this case, since the Islands are in uninterrupted dispute since the British invasion that took place in 1833.
    Britain hides behind the principle of self-determination without seriously. First, the self-determination is not applicable in the case of kelpers/ Falklands because they are 2000 people that are not a national group, but a group introduced by the colonial power, into a land in dispute. Second, we can see several examples of the twentieth century which show how Britain proceeded in other cases according to this principle: in Banaba Island, British evacuated their three thousand inhabitants to allow the activities of the British Phosphate Commission. Many years later, after a scandalous legal process, British government agreed to compensate them with an amount equal to three pounds per capita per year of exile. We also have the case of Diego Garcia, where its inhabitants were expelled and the British leased the island to the U.S. to integrate their system of global nuclear bases. Could it be that when the islanders are Melanesians, Australoid, Papua, etc, Britain is less prepared to defend the right of self-determination that when it comes from Anglos as Kelpers?
    The Falklands are inhabited by english settlers transplanted to an area, that at least is in dispute. Would you let me self-determine in your home? Kelpers can self-determine what they want, but in England. Not in the Falklands that were usurped to Argentina.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 03:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #154
    Oh dear, Oh dear, you are losing the place-if you ever had it.
    In your case, the onset of dementia is becoming obvious.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 04:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    @163
    “@148 Pete Bog Argentina considers implanted the islanders, because they arrived after the usurpation”.
    Malvinense,
    How could it be a usurpation when Great Britain's claim went back at least to 1765 if not 1690?

    Surely it would only be a usurpation if Great Britain had never set foot on the Falkland Islands or had no previous claim until 1833?

    Ie; the USS Lexington removed most of Vernet's settlers in 1831, but the USA apart from sealing in the Falklands and perhaps having sealers live there temporarily, issued no strong claim.

    Surely, that was usurpation.

    ”If the UK regarded the islands are British, then should follow the diplomat path. (This in 1829-1833 etc.)”

    The UK did. After the United Provinces sent a militia in 1832, the British Consul did make a diplomatic protest.

    Do you think (as you seem to prefer diplomacy) that the United Provinces should have replied to, rather than ignored that protest, rather than initiated Britain's response?

    On the subject of the non -British settlers prior to January 1833 who were allowed to stay in 1833, a few, ie Carmelita Penny (Simon) and Antonina Roxa, lived in the islands until the 1860s/1870s
    Do Argentina regard these people as implanted as they did not originate from Britain?

    Do Argentina regard the gauchos who came from Uruguay in the 1850s (working for Samuel Fisher Lafone, some of whom settled in the Falkland Islands and contributed to the multinational make up of the Falkland Islanders), as implanted?

    Do the Argentines regard the forebears of the Hansen/Rowlands family that originated from Demark /Scandinavia via shipwrecks as implanted?

    Are you actually aware, Malvinense, that the Falklands population post 1833 was not shipped over entirely from the UK?

    I would understand the Argentine explanation of 'implanted' if like Spain in the late 1700s/early1800s, Britain had established a purely military or a penal colony, with no intention of commercial operation, but this was not the case.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 06:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • FI_Frost

    KFC: Spanish and Germany Grandparents = Implanted.

    Hector Timerman (this joker even has a US passport!): Ukrainian Grandparents = Implanted.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 06:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    @171

    You have repeated complete BULLSHIT.

    Firstly, the Falklands were not “usurped” from Argentina.

    We have covered the events of 1832-1833 again and again. The falklands were NEVER part of Argentina. The Falklands were never part of the United provinces of Rio Plata except for the period of their “attempted and illegal usurption” of November 1832.

    Argentina used the principle of self-determination to claim independence from Spain in 1814 and continue to use it to justify their “genocidal usurption” of Patagonia in 1880. What about the “territorial integrity” of the Amerindians?

    The Falkland Islanders are LESS of an implanted population than either the Latinos in Argentina, the Argentines in Patagonia or the northern Europeans in Canada and the US. ALL ARE IN THE AMERICAS BUT ORIGINATED FROM EUROPE.

    You quote cases of Banaba and Diego Garcia as “scandalous”, yet wish to ethnically cleanse the Falklands.

    The Falkland Islanders can and will continue to self-determine in THEIR home. In the BRITISH OVERSEAS TERRITORY of the Falkland Islands.

    It has never been and will never be YOUR HOME. It wasn't the HOME of the crew of the Sarandi who after murdering their captain and raping his wife, we evicted in January 1833 after two months on the islands, mostly aboard their ship.

    HOWEVER, the MASSIVE HYPOCRISY, is that you are self-determining on Amerindian homes...you theiving colonialist, genocidal implanted bafoon!!

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 07:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #171 Noxious
    Here we go again, Blah blah blah 1833. Get another record, this one has worn out !

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    With the UK paying billions into the EU and Spain taking out Billions, there will only be one winer when the UK disrupts Spanish activities in Brussels by vetoing its nominations for committees and blocking policy proposals.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @171 - monxus

    Why don't you try proving that at the International Court of Justice?

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @171

    Self-determination has been established by the UN as a universal human right. Because it is a universal human right, you don't have to enumerate every case to which it applies. On the other hand, if there was to be derogation from a universal human right, there would have to be specific and explicit resolution saying exactly that. There isn't, and when Spain and Argentina tried to get one in 2008, you failed miserably. The only countries to support you were nutters, dictatorships, and your fellow implanted Italo-Iberian populations of South America.

    But isn't it funny all the same how this curious idea that implanted populations have no rights is believed only by the afore-mentioned implanted Italo-Iberian populations of S. America? Some of you guys seem to have real difficulty with understanding your own history, or the principle of logical consistency.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Brit Bob

    @171 stupid remarks.

    Now, do you believe in the Man or Kretina?

    If you believe in the latter perhaps you need some therapy?

    http://www.speroforum.com/a/33140/Remaining-nonselfgoverning-territories-must-have-full-freedom-of-choice-Ban-says#.UdHcad5wz9B

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • aussie sunshine

    Good God!! The Scotts have invaded London!!

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @169 “The eviction of 50 militia, rapists, murderers and mutineers, who'd been on the Falkland islands for 2 MONTHS in 1832 is?”

    2 MONTHS!!! Great lie...

    http://www.embajadaabierta.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/vernet.pdf

    @173 Pete Bog
    “How could it be a usurpation when Great Britain's claim went back at least to 1765 if not 1690?”
    In 1690 John Strong did not claim the islands, only landed and named the Strait Falkland Sound.
    The islands were already in Spanish maps.
    In 1765 the islands were already occupied by the French. A year before!.
    Therefore your claim is not valid because it the british not discovered or occupied the islands first.
    You repeat 1690 and 1765 as a mantra when we know that this is false.
    1690: Spanish map. The islands, appear in Spanish maps , before 1690.
    1765: French colony... One year before!....

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    God someone else reply because after all these months I have realised that Malvinense 1833 totally lacks the ability to actually learn anything.

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Falkland Islands

    182 Malvinense 1833
    dumb you are! you got most correct, Britain, France and Spain. where the hell does Argentina come into this, oh yes, i know, Argentina invaded in 1832 just like 1982, and got the boot twice. Take a hike!

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 08:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • monxus

    UK recognize Argentina as a independient country in 1824 (as Provincias Unidas del Río de la PLata) and heiress of the spanish colonies that includes Islas Malvinas, even the independence was in 1816. UK invade the islands in 1833. And there were a Governor there, and population. And were civil resistance to the bristish invaders too.
    Malvina Vernet, Argentina's first born in the Malvinas Islands. She was the daughter of Governor Luis Vernet and was born in our Malvinas, on February 5, 1830. Then they were expelled when the British arrived. They do not respect their right to self-determination. http://blogs.lanacion.com.ar/historia-argentina/familias/malvina-vernet.
    For all the fools who relate my speech with CFK, I clarify that I am against CFK. You didn’t understand that Malvinas claim is not a question of political parties ...

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    @185 monxus

    The UK has never recognised Argentina sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. Never! As in never ever.

    Argentina is not the successor state to a Spanish colony because the Viceroyalty of Rio Plata included Urugay, Paraguay and Bolivia in ADDITION to Argentina's territory.

    Vernet was not governor in 1833 - Mestivier was supposed to be the governor. However he was murdered by his own troops within 2 months of arriving on the Islands. Oh and then they raped his wife!

    “Malvina Vernet, Argentina's first born in the Malvinas Islands. She was the daughter of Governor Luis Vernet and was born in our Malvinas, on February 5, 1830. Then they were expelled when the British arrived.”

    No settlers were expelled. The Vernet family had already left the islands in 1831 - a bit difficult to expel a family that was living in a different country already. Try to get your years right.

    Continually repeating lies does not make it factual correct - all your claims are easily refuted by historical documentation.

    “You didn’t understand that Malvinas claim is not a question of political parties ”

    There is no Malvinas claim, just a fantasy concocted by the Argentine government during the Década Infamein of the 1930s and then polished by Peronism in the 1940s and trotted out frequently so that simpletons don't realise how much the government is full of sh!t.

    Next Malvinista please.....

    Aug 14th, 2013 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Escoses Doido

    @186:
    Absolutely correct on all counts.

    What we see at 185 is the typical malvanista clicking his ruby slippers together in an the hope he will be taken not back to Kansas, but away from the damaging truth about the Islands at that time.

    'theres no place like home, theres no place like home, theres no place like home'......... (c'mon toto, woof!!)

    Aug 15th, 2013 - 03:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • inthegutter

    #185 not to mention even if this was all true it wouldn't make a bit of difference. These were events that were almost 200 years ago. Since then there have been countless changes to the borders of countries through armed conflict or treaty. Are you seriously suggesting that we roll back the clock to the 1830s to accommodate Argentina's claims to the Falklands? Looking at a map of Argentina during that era you'd have to give back a huge tract of Paraguay and Patagonia. Not to mention the fact that most European counties (including Germany and Italy) would cease to exist.

    Even if magically this did happen why 200 years? Why not 300 (Argentina back to Spain)? 400 - Argentina back to the Amerindians.

    I hope you understand how stupid Argentina (and you) are being over the Falklands. Is it not enough for you that 1000 people had to die? You want to continue *trying* (because life in the Falklands is much better than in Argentina) to make life the the Islanders harder all because of some supposed event 200 years ago.

    Truly pathetic, I honestly hope Argentina grows up sometime soon and leaves this pathetic irredentist claim behind so it focus on its real problems.

    Aug 15th, 2013 - 03:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    @182

    Please tell us all the names of anyone from the Vernet community evicted in 1833.

    Evicted, not the four who voluntarily left on the Sarandi.

    Come on, chop, chop....the NAMES.

    Oh, the weren't any!!

    So, the eviction of the VERNET COMMUNITY IS A FILTHY ARGIE LIE.

    Now, the remaining Vernet community.

    Where was Vernet....oh yes he'd fucked off 18months earlier prior to the LEXINGTON raid (nothing to do with the British).

    but he did leave a deputy...what nationality was his deputy Malvinese??? BRITISH.

    Until recently, Matthew Brisbane, Vernets appointed deputy, was marketed by ARGENTINA as a British colonialist murdered by the brave Gaucho Riviero...that's interesting isn't it Malvinese....ANOTHER ARGIE lie.

    So which was it in 1832-33.

    In November 1832, there was a small community, led by the British Matthew Brisbane, working on the islands. 20-30 folk.

    Then in that November 50 militia from the UP attempted to usurp the territory, but they even fucked that up, murdered that captain Esteban Mestevier and raped his wife.

    Two months later HMS Clio evicted the militia and four of the Vernet community chose to return to the mainland.

    This is why the Argie myth has changed from “population” to “authorities”

    However, these authorities were an implanted population from a colonialist power (UP) and were usurping pirates. Therefore they had no right to self determination.

    You see Malvinese...your lies might wash in Argieland...but not with historical fact.

    If you don't believe me, have a look in your National Archives and see who was on the Sarandi in January 1833 and compare to November 1832.

    Aug 15th, 2013 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Escoses Doido

    @189:
    They will have no valid response to your astute summary of facts in your post.

    It scares them, it scares them the same way 'born again' christians/creationists are scared to look at the theory (scientific theory) of Evolution for instance, - Same behaivoral patterns these malvanistas have when presented by historic fact.

    Aug 15th, 2013 - 10:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • GFace

    @190/189. And like creationists, you cite, E.D., The Malvanistas have a supreme “advantage” over us:

    We must cite years, dates, documents, the full context of UN Charter, General Assembly and Security Council Resolutions, points of international law, history including materials form their own historical archives, results from free and democratic elections. Evidence. Proof. Verifiable facts that can be audited and confirmed by impartial third parties (except for the ICJ who the Malvanistas know darned well would smack their case down faster and harder than Kitzmiller vs Dover -- I believe the catchphrase was “breathtaking inanity”) and compared to similar situations world-wide for consistency, including those in what are now the universally internationally recognized boundaries of mainland Argentina-proper. Fortunately advocates of Falklanders inalienable right to self-determination haven't been asked yet to provide bacteria samples of stuff that really shouldn't be in the hand of morons who don't believe in evolution (or even just believe in “microevolution”) until they need to ask their doctor for a “new” antibiotic.

    Malvanitas, like young and old earth creationists alike, well... they just have to say stuff.

    Aug 15th, 2013 - 12:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    You must answer what are the arguments that gave the right to the UK to take the islands in 1833.
    To make it more simple.
    Discovery: discarded.
    Occupation: discarded.
    Until today, the British can not answer this question.

    Aug 18th, 2013 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    What gave Argentina the right to take the islands in 1982?

    Ethics/morals - “discarded”
    Occupying Military Personnel - discarded

    Aug 18th, 2013 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britishbulldog

    Two flat broke country's pissing in the same pot bunch of Spanish and Argentine peasants

    Aug 18th, 2013 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    192

    1982:
    Occupation - discarded

    What is your point?

    Aug 18th, 2013 - 02:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • dab14763

    192 Malvi,

    Discovery:
    Prior discoveries had not been not made public at the time, which is why Davis thought he was the first.
    1648 Treaty of Munster, Spain accepts its territories are those it holds. Territories it holds do not include the Falklands. Treaty also made any Spanish discovery irrelevant.
    Britain may not have been the first to discover the Falklands, but it was the first to combine discovery and occupation.

    Occupation:
    France, by declaring its occupation illegitimate, nullified it, so, legally, the first occupation was the British one. Legally, it's as if the French occupation had never happened.
    Britain has never relinquished its claim.

    You must answer what the arguments are that gave Argentina, instead of Spain, the right to complain about British actions.
    To make it more simple.
    Unilateral declaration of independence: discarded
    Inheritance from Spain: discarded
    Full effective control of the whole archipelago: discarded
    Until today, Argentina cannot answer this question.

    Aug 18th, 2013 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    192Malicious 1833

    You have been put in your place, Troll

    Aug 18th, 2013 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @196 Dab,
    1 - The British occupation was not legal because they came illegally. If they came in secret is because they knew the land was not theirs.
    2 - There were no British protest the French occupation.
    3 - There were no British protest the Spanish occupation.
    The evidence is clear and demonstrate the illegal occupation of the UK.
    4 - France ceded the territory to Spain, recognized its sovereignty.
    5 - If France took possession on April 5, 1764, the cession by France involves legally, like if Spain itself had taken possession on April 5, 1764.

    “You must answer what the arguments are that gave Argentina, instead of Spain, the right to complain about British actions.”
    6-Argentina took possession and occupied the islands before the UK.
    7-Argentina had control of all the islands, Argentina navy ship Sarandi, had the task of guarding the islands. During his absence there was the tragic fact that we know.
    8- Argentina still has the “foundation stone” of the first village of the Malvinas.
    For all the above....
    You must answer what are the arguments that gave the right to the UK to take the islands in 1833.
    To make it more simple.
    Discovery: discarded.
    Occupation: discarded.
    Until today, the British can not answer this question.
    @197 Troll Trumpet, regards ;-)

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 11:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pete Bog

    @198
    1-The British did not know of the French settlement in 1765,and did not regard the Falkland Islands as Spanish in 1765.
    2/-Yes there was-the British asked the French to leave.
    3/-However when the Spanish ejected Great Britain in 1770, Britain stopped short of declaring war on Spain thanks to a treaty, so they clearly did not accept the ejection.
    4/-Because the two's royal families were linked. France did not cede the territory of Port Louis-it was sold.
    5/-Spain did not take possession of Port Louis in 1764 but 1767.
    6/-Incorrect. The Republic of Argentina was formed in 1853. The United Provinces of the River Plate sent a militia in 1832-3 months before HMS Clio arrived, and they did not occupy anything but Port Louis. 1832 does not precede 1765.
    7/-The Sarandi was crewed mostly by British sailors, that's why Pinedo could not get them to fight.
    8/-Like the plaque left in 1774 at Port Egmont that the Spanish stole?
    That came before 1832.
    “You must answer what are the arguments that gave the right to the UK to take the islands in 1833.”
    1/-Prior discovery.
    2/-No abandonment of their claim.
    3/-The fact that there was a continous British presence around the islands with sealing ships Navy ships (uncontested)and explorers (Weddell was asked for assistance by Jewitt who remember, ended up fighting the Argentines later).
    4/-Vernet asked the British Government permission for his settlement.
    5/-The United Provinces declaration of the Falklands being their property in 1829 was illegal because the Governor of Buenos Aires had murdered his predecessor.
    What is certain is that Britain has not discarded it's claim and occupation in 180 years.
    6/-The presence of a militia in 1832 that did not have British permission to be on the Falklands.
    7/-The United Provinces did not declare war on the USA after the USS Lexington ejected settlers from the islands in 1832.
    Why?

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @199 Pete:
    1 - Priority discovery. false
    2 - Abandoning the claim. (1774-1829)
    3 - It is surprising that the British would give greater legal validity to the presence of fishing vessels to a population that worked the land, built houses, living on the islands.
    4 - Strange. Until today, not one British, show the document where the UK authorizes Vernet to settle in the islands. Perhaps P & P to have it.
    5 - False. No Argentine government questioned this statement.
    6 - Strange. The Spanish militia had permission of Britain in 1779, 1782.1793, 1800 etc, etc?
    7 - There was a major diplomatic incident between Argentina and the United States.
    Vernet was not in the islands as a result of this incident giving their reports to the Argentine government.
    Interestingly, the UK did not protest the attack on a population “had permission British” to be there.
    For all the above....
    You must answer what are the arguments that gave the right to the UK to take the islands in 1833.
    To make it more simple.
    Discovery: discarded.
    Occupation: discarded.
    Until today, the British can not answer this question.

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Escoses Doido

    @200;
    Wow, it must be so, so frustrating for you, knowing that you are right, but having to accept that you will never have the Falklanders Islands.

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Malvinense 1833

    @201 Escoses: First, never say never.
    The past is in the past. Even I have the hope of achieving a solution. And to meet the people of the islands. And to find us.

    Juan López and John Ward by Jorge Luis Borges.
    It was a strange time for them to live in.
    The planet had been parcelled in different countries, each one provided with loyalties, of dear memories, of a doubtless heroic past, of rights, of grievances, of a particular mythology, of bronze statues, of demagogues and symbols. That division, beloved by cartographers, forecasted wars.
    López was born in a city to the side of the inmobile river; Ward, just outside the city over which once walked Father Brown. He had studied Castillian Spanish to read the Quixote.
    The other, proffessed his love for Conrad, who was revealed to him in a classroom on the Viamonte street.
    They would have been friends, but they saw each other face to face only once, on some too famous islands, and each of the two was Cain, and each one Abel.
    They were buried together. The snow and the corruption know them.
    The Fact I am referring to happened in a time we can not understand.

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • inthegutter

    #202 etc.

    Even if all this is true it doesn't mean a thing. Are you seriously suggesting that all territorial claims since the 1830s are somehow invalid and the lands should be returned to their original inhabitants?

    Argentina is truly pathetic with regards to Falklands, why the hell can't you just get on fixing the numerous problems you have?

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Escoses Doido

    @202;
    Dude this is 2013.
    The islands belong to the people who live there.

    You represent a deceived group of people, who have been socially engineered at school to believe in a myth, and are being encouraged by malicious authourity figures.

    Take a real look at history, and the truth.

    Those Islands belong to those who live there.

    Nobody else.

    Aug 19th, 2013 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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