MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
“Uniquely recalcitrant debtor” Argentina loses bonds’ appeal: next step US Supreme Court
Argentina lost on Friday its appeal of a ruling that would force it to pay in full holders of 1.3 billion dollars in defaulted debt when it makes a payment to investors who took discounted restructured bonds, opening the prospect for a US Supreme Court appeal, which if it happens will push the litigation into 2014. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesThis ruling might actually help Argentina. If it goes to the Supreme Court and the US government, France and IMF get involved, Argentina is likely to be let off. It reminds me of a local warning. Once you make a deal in Argentina, the first thing to go through their mind is how to screw you over. Argentina should pay her debts but investors were stupid to deal with her in the first place.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0It increases the likelihood that the Supreme Court will actually hear the case, in which case they are also likely to ask the Solicitor General if they have an opinion.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 02:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0But who knows? This case could drag on 'til the century at the rate it's progressing and I've given up predicting what the result will be.
“Uniquely recalcitrant debtors”
Aug 24th, 2013 - 04:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Concise, devastating.
Excellent news to see the US Court of Appeals upholding the LAW. And, in particular, the LAW that argieland CHOSE to issue the bonds under.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 06:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0“What the consequences predicted by Argentina have in common is that they are speculative, hyperbolic and almost entirely of the republic’s own making” U.S. Circuit Judge Barrington Parker wrote in Friday’s opinion.
Quite right, Your Honour. Argieland is moving rapidly toward economic disaster. Nothing to do with the bonds. More to do with the incompetence of the “person” in charge. Here's a bit of “economic” advice for you. It's worth a lot of money, but you can have it for free. PAY YOUR DEBTS. As soon as possible. You may have to hold back on a few projects, but the debts won't be hanging over your head. In the long run, it would mean that you had more money. Just go down to your local bank manager and check out what it means to pay off debts. No more interest accumulating, no more payments. It's not rocket science.
But argieland has a new “economic model”. It's called “theft”. Steal from everyone you can and hope that things become so confusing that you won't have to repay anyone. Trouble is that many people have enough brain to see what you're up to.
If the matter does go to the Supreme Court, what chance does argieland stand? Not much. Who would think that the Supreme Court would actually reverse the carefully-considered judgements of the other courts? And the Supreme Court only has to say that it sees no need to review the judgements of other courts.
Where will that leave argieland? It now has judgements against it all around the world. Perhaps it will be impossible for argieland to “interact” with the rest of the world. Perhaps it will start to be expelled from international organisations. It must be close to being expelled by the IMF. G20? UN? And pressure can be brought to bear on other latam countries to comply.
Conqueror: What you rightfully state is logical and makes sense, but things on the other side of the Andes defy reality. Argentina seems to somehow get away with violating every international agreement and yet you still have companies like Chevron willing to invest. You might as well go into business with gypsies as you're going to get about the same result. Singer seems to have the upper hand, but I still can't understand how my Argentine neighbors continue to get away with just about everything.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 08:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0If only Big Mouth CFK had listened to her lawyers and kept her mouth shut.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0If only Boudou and Lorenzino had acted with due respect - not to mention get decent haircuts and suits that fit - before the courts.
If only the Argentine government acted like adults rather than bratty children.
I doubt the judgement would have been half as damning if they had acted reasonably.
I would imagine that Singer is encouraged by this and is eagerly awaiting the next outpouring of bile and vitriol by TMBOA aimed directly at the American courts following this decision.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 09:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina: the gift that keeps giving!
I still don't see why SCOTUS would take this case. I think cfk needs to default since there's no money to pay in 2014.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0We should hear on this and IMF by eom Sept.
BTW Scotus doesn't care what IMF France or wh thinks about this case. It has no bearing in us law.
THE SUPREME COURT WILL NOT HEAR THE CASE THEY WILL NOT SET A PRECEDENT AND IN SIX MONTH THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY NOT ONLY THE BUITRE BONDS BUT 42 BILLION TO THE OTHERS THAT WILL SAY ME TOOO!!!
Aug 24th, 2013 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0They will most likely be required under law to pay the money but I don't think they will because they can't. They will default again.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 010. Yep and that's what she wants. I suspect that has been the plan all along.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm sure the next step will be to get bcra declared an arm of the govt and go after the reserves or what's left of them. I guess they can try banco nacion too.
The next 6 months will be interesting.
@5 I do understand what you, and others, are saying. But I believe that it is past time that the international community sets out the methodology for dealing with international state criminals. For a start, it should be isolated. Fully isolated. Enforced by UN forces with every reason to hate argieland. Nothing in, nothing out. Minefields. Argies like minefields. Unmarked. Random. No-fly zone. The whole of argieland. Shoot everything down. Destroy every aircraft on the ground, military AND civil. Every fuel, gas or oil facility. Every vessel and associated facility. And every gas or oil field. Set the lot alight. Oh, I've just thought. Would a nuclear ballistic missile help? WE can help!
Aug 24th, 2013 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0a man went to the nurse and said“ I am embarrassed but could you help and please don't laugh” The nurse said “ I have seen lots of embarrassing things but show me”. The man dropped his keks and the nurse couldn' stop laughing as the man had a tiny pecker. She eventually stopped laughing and apologised. She said “ what's the problem?” He said can't you see it's swollen.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0MISSERABLE PEOPLE WON'T NEVER LEARN.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As i always say, i don't expect people from this forum to think like me, because this is evident that we have deep ideological differences, however contrary postures shouldn't be an obstacle in order to be solidary in such a complicated cause like this one.
If all these people who celebrate this rulling weren't so misserable, they would understand that this news is too bad not just for argentina, but for all the rest of the world too. The court of appeals can say whatever, but we all know that nobody can be so stupid to believe that after this rulling, there will be some other debt re-estructuring, which is actually what some european countries need, in order to recover their economies.
The day they learn to be better people, they will realise that they can be serious detractors of any government, and they won't need to celebrate nobody's bad news, or make the tipicall hypocritical and ignorant analysis that they often do. Anyway, it's expectable that even after having celebrated this rulling, they will keep on criticising the denounces of corruption cases that involve c. f. k's government, like if they had any moral authority to do it.
On the other hand, beyond it's expectable that the supreme court from u. s. a. doesen't accept this case, it's necesary to indicate that argentina has all economic recources in order to continue paying it's debts, beside, the government has always been very clear every time it manifested that it won't accept any rulling which puts in danger our economy, so, c. f. k' administration will have to build a new way to keep on paying our debts, it won't be easy, but they'll know how to do it.
@14 CFK's government is broke. It has raided all the resources and can't pay. There is no way to find more money.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree it is not good news for the people of Argentina. I have a lot of friends there and they fear what is going to happen.
What you fail to mention is that it is the actions and attitude of CFK and her band of goons that has driven Argentina to this dire position. A little humility and respect could have gone a long way to help find a different solution.
As I have said just because you don't think you owe a debt doesn't make it so. It will be fun to watch Argentina held in contempt of court for as long as they don't pay. NY courts have many ways to compel payment.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The ks arrogance and stupidity has always been their downfall.
I just don't see this being taken up. Of course Argentina can be sued under NY law they agreed to the jurisdiction when they floated the bonds. It must be tough for Crissy to have to live with rules she didn't make.
So the $1.3 B sounds a lot like the $1B a year to buy Futbol Por Todos.
Aug 24th, 2013 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or the free clothes Cristina gave away last week or so.
vote-buying.
All of the regions of the world are learning better and better management and honesty, but man it's entertaining/shocking how dumb/shallow the environment is down there.
Argentina is above US law and those venal corrupt judges. They won't see a cent since Argentina will never obey US court rulings, as they do not apply to us, all the bribe money will have to come out of Singer's pocket.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 018. You are wrong as usual. In the end Argentina will pay what's owed or suffer terrible consequences.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0Its all coming to fruition.
The sad part is 40mm people will suffer due to the arrogance and stupidity of greedy dictators.
Terrible consequences, ok.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0@18
Aug 25th, 2013 - 05:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Under whose law were the bonds taken? Argentina borrowed the money under US laws , therefore it is US law that applies. Why do you think Argentina are taking this to the SUPREME COURT if US law does not apply to Argentina. Your excellent views would be appreciated. Argentina will eventually have to come to terms with the US courts. Argentina will find it increasingly difficult to borrow money in the future. All countries borrow money on the bond market , but most pay their debts, unlike Argentina.
In the end....that is how Argentina will end up making payments to all.......or appropriately it will be just that, the end for Argentina.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0This collapse will be different. Argentina has taunted laws, ignored laws and defied court orders around the world for just a bit too long. Kirchnerites are so arrogant to think they are in control as they whore themselves to China, who she refers to as “those little slant eyes”. She thinks she has China by the short and curlies because Argentina has become China's farmer's market/grocery store. It's time to wake up and smell shit. China will soon be jumping ship as they quickly re-deploy focus and look to exploit Africa. China will soon be looking at SA in the rear view mirror. As Yankee said.......it's 40 million that are about to pay the piper for a decade of kirchnerism.
They had a saying in the USA.....he was Borked, Argentina will be using a similar phrase, “they are trying to kirchner us”
Toby like your stupid arrogant and childish leaders you think going against the USA will have little consequences.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do you realize you're out of reserves? You're out of fuel? Your major employes are all US corps?
Argentina will pay or 40mm people will suffer like they've never seen. Mark this post you know I'm usually right.
@21
Aug 25th, 2013 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0'all countries borrow in the bond market”.
All countries have also been bought out by the great banking conspiracy to control the world and it's people.
Argentina has not been and will never be bought by the bankers. And we don't borrow in the bond markets for almost 15 years now.
Toby do you not see what's happening in you country? You can't be that blind can you?
Aug 25th, 2013 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do you realize no u$ mean no fuel.
Bcra is out of u$ your balance of trade is just about to go negative. Which means you can't buy FUEL.
How do you think factories run?
You can't be so dumb as to not see this as catastrophic.
I feel sorry for you obviously you have no idea what's in store for you your family and friends.
@18 The Truth PaTroll
Aug 25th, 2013 - 11:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0The judges in this case weren't corrupt or venal. They were exasperated. It's in Argentina's best interests, in the long term, to respect the laws under which they borrowed the money. It's also a matter of integrity. And I say this as someone who feels nothing but disgust at the behaviour of the Paul Singer's of this world.
I would be very worried if the world was exactly as YOU describe it is.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 11:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0But it is not. There are many other mechanisms that adjust trade/financial ebbs and flows.
The world worked rather well before fiat currency.
@27 I understand your refusal to accept the inevitable disaster your country in heading for, it is pure fear.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know you like to live in isolation but try talking to some of the people who lived through the last default. Then imagine it will be so much worse.
You think everyone is going to pull together and start bartering for food and fuel (think, what do you have to barter with?), it won't be like that because it wasn't like that last time. People turned on each other, looters ran riot, crime soared, suicide rates were high. People lived in fear of being burgled and bus loads of the poor came for the people that lived in the better parts of town. You claim to live in a nice area so your parent's house will be a target. Look around Mendoza and ask why the security on houses is so high. I know why.
You seem to think everyone will play by the rules and work together but one thing Argentines do not so is play by the rules, that is why the country is in such a mess. Still, you are one of the lucky ones. You are young and safety in Chile is just over the mountains.
I agree that it is of no pleasure to watch a country destroyed because it is never the people that caused it that suffer. But trying to help Argentina is like trying to help a drug addict. They have to admit there is a problem and they need help before they will ever start on the road to recovery.
Elaine, one word:
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0MELODRAMA.
I'm sorry if you think I'm dismissing your writing, it seems thought out, but it is very, very, over the top.
@30 Whatever helps you sleep at night. Have you spoken to anyone who lived through the last crash? I have.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have spoken to British that lived through July 5th. What point should I prove then?
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 030 ElaineB
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He was 8 or 9 at the time.
“Uniquely recalcitrant debtor” - he says it as it is!
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've used better verbiage here than these illiterate court judges.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@34
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even if that were true, so what? It doesn't change reality. There's a difference between principled defiance and sheer perversity.
#34
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Too true ! HOWEVER their “verbiage” actually means SOMETHING and is backed by LAW. Can you say the same for your erstwhile ramblings ?
What Law? Argentina does not recognize US law, nor does it apply within Argentina. Tough break huh.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(Argentina is using the US court system as a mockery, to kill time, not because it respects it!). It's the world's most corrupt system, they send innocent minors to jail for profit, execute later proven innocent people, jail harmless people for smoking a joint, police keep the drug-raid money to pay for hookers, I mean the list goes on and on and on...
@37 And nothing you say here is going to stop the reality of what is happening to your country.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0tobi....don't your hands ever get tired alternating between rampant mastering in the mirror to your greatness and patting yourself on the back?
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BTW....read the actual verbiage. Besides....being an Argentine everyone is less than you in your insignificant mind and world. More importantly.....as previously stated......your verbiage amounts to llama scat and the courts.....enforcement. Run home to your momma where she can comfort you with a nice mouthful of a nourishing, nipple spigot of a lactaciously warm drink of milk! Might I also suggest a little liquid vitamin E for your moms nipples....they may chaff and get bitten.....you are getting a bit old.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Captain Poppy:
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LECHEROUS and in his DOTAGE.
Toby do you seriously think Argentina can barter for its imports?
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is something wrong with rgs thinking theoretical actions are actually possible and/or practical.
Is it like el thickos flying across the ocean diagonally.
Pure idiocy.
Its seems to me you've finally realized your k fed talking point were lies and now your just being thick headed because you're embarrassed.
It will come down to barter because the current fiat currency is worthless, and eventually market psychology will catch up to the facts on the ground.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@42 The world has moved on from bartering and it isn't going back. However, for the sake of your imaginary world, how will it help you in the short-term? How is your country going to feed everyone buy fuel while the rest of the world adapts to your view? It could take a few decades and people are going to be awfully cold and hungry waiting for the TTT economic dream to realise.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 042. Your getting dumber with every post.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Simple as that
Dollar is over, bartering will come back by FORCE not by choice.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not enough gold to substitute QE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 14, 567, and 1.466.269.
@45 Oh dear. If you are betting everything on that happening in the near future you are is a pickle, and that is for certain.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You know how many trillions of paper dollars have been printed? In the meantime, the US economy is no bigger today than in 2007.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Trillions more dollars, same economic output backing it.
That's not going to end well.
Your ignorance is as laughable as it is frightening.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You'll be long dead before the USA is knocked from its leadership position.
Silly simpleton.
I know it is a first for Argentina. The country who has the largest default in history is ARGENTINA US$ 93 billion. What on earth have you done with it, not much really.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@47 You are distracting to stop yourself thinking about what is about to happen to your country, I understand that. It must be terrifying for a young man to be facing such uncertainty.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We could debate all day your hypothesis but the paradigm of world economics is not going to change any time soon. You can wish it, just as you wished for Santa Claus, but it is not going to happen in time to save your country from immediate catastrophe.
If I had a wish right now it would be for the ICC to stop trying to kill cricket!!!!!
tobi painted himself into a corner and is unable to retreat. He will support kirchner's vision for Argentina until the end, which undoubtedly is not far off. September, when SCOTUS makes their decisions and October's elections will shed some light on Argentina's direction. Either the beginning of a new start of deeper into the cesspool that the kirchner's dug. But she will fair well no matter what directions. Perhaps she was viewing real estate in Seychelles. This term of kirchner's truly marked the opening chapter of her end.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Any country that gives CFK residency will in my opinion be a failed state, I cannot believe a western power would give her sanctuary because for sure the people that she allegedly taken money off will not rest until she has had her day in court.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@42 Did you read the bit about what the law says? Of course not. Why would you? Law has never been an argie strong point. Bribes is what it's about, right? You want a torpedo? How about we drop 30 cruise missiles in the middle of BA? Remember how it works? You start it. We finish it. IF there's a next time, I will have no problem urging my government to use a full-scale nuclear strike. We may finish you! Permanently.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@48 Jose has never been sane. Much the same as you really. Perhaps when you get to be 14 or 15 years old. Although it's doubtful! Please understand that I now try to restrain myself. My usual reaction to you lot is to sail down to BA with a couple of containers. One filled with AK-47s and the other with ammunition. And then go walkabout. Selector on “Automatic” and finger on the trigger. And in suitable circumstances, a bayonet in an orifice.
@50 What do you mean “no UK aid”? Guess where the EU gets its money, kiddikins!
@52 Your “country” is already part of a fixed, corrupt, failed, financial system. It's called the “Kirchnerite” system. Don't worry about it. As your inflation and your debts increase and your “money” gets lost, the time will come. You can't see this so you are undoubtedly inferior. Despite the many attempts to educate you, you continue to be brainless. Why would we “discuss” anything with you when you insist that you are always right? Does your stupidity extend to comparing argieland's inflation rate with that of the UK and ignoring the FACT that the UK's is 90% LESS. Perhaps when you're older. Although I am inclined to recommend to my government that the best course is to make argieland starve. I like the idea of argies starving. Perhaps you'll eat each other. Not soon enough, unfortunately.
ELAINEB:
Aug 25th, 2013 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not surprised for your analysis, it's actually as mediocre as most comments that you often post.
If you think that this question could have been solved with good attitudes, it showes how little you know about politic, and it shows also the low level of debate that you have, due to the knowledge that you have about our situation is not more than than the tipicall too partial knowledge characteristic of imperalist nations.
This is evident that the hysterical rejection that you feel for c. f. k., doesn't let you be a serious detractor of kirchnerism, every time i see decadent comments like your's, and some other people's, i praise the work of some of our journalists who are n0t pro kirchnerist, but who do their job seriously and make relevant critics to c. f. k's administration, whose analysis are not based on mediatic operations published on the press which hates kirchnerism (clarin, la nación and perfil).
I have always thought that mercopress is a serious source, if it's compared to clarin, la nación and perfil, which are just shamefuly corporate, however some of it's reports are often too partial and aim to ridicule c. f. k's words.
In relation to our situation, which are your fundaments to express that c. f.k's government is broke. On other hand, when i said that the government must change the the way of payment, i reffered to it won't be able to continue using the same banks to deposit the money, because after this rulling, it would be dangerous, so, the government will have to search another bank.
@54 Ah, bless, you think I am concerned by your opinion.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That you cannot even understand my posts is your problem and not mine. Look at the headline, the clue is there. And try reading some of the Argentine press. And listen to the comments of other Peronists. CFK and her boys made a dire situation worse by their disrespectful behaviour.
The government has already said they won't pay. They can't pay.
@54
Aug 25th, 2013 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What money are you talking about? You haven't got any thats why you are going to default again. The way your government is going they will be broke within a year, When I lived in Argentina I was surprised by all the high walls surrounding properties, but I was told that that when Argie last defaulted there were riots and the poor went looking for the rich. There are more poor now, so it will be worse this time around.
We're talking about a small $1.3billion of debt. Thats it!
Aug 25th, 2013 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK could pay for it out of our small change.
And Argentina struggles.
Hey Argies there's plenty of oil in the Falklands. Come get it!
Then there's the budget deficit. Everything that could be raided has been raided.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The tax amnesty on undeclared US$? How well did that go?
I know there is one thing that the Argentine government will need US$ for. Parts for the printing presses.
Soon the Argentine Peso will have more zeroes than A_Voice's comments have full stops..............
“axel arg” If you'd like to shine in discussion, consider making paragraphs. I really look forward to of math-literate, open-minded, non-polarized Argentines joining us here!
Aug 25th, 2013 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(There's plenty of future-forward, math-literate Argentines on the Net, but they all are polarized *throws up hands* against your government.
So, to recap, Wall-of-text“ isn't seen as a demo of mental stability in Anglo-ish countries.
Also, with the randomly strewn antiquated words, it tends to indicate., at least in our culture, an ”inferiority complex.” Or a tendency to being stuck repeating the past? If you want a better life, keep your mind on how the future is going to be better!!!
brrr.... pl-plplease n-north-thners, sssend muh-uh-me a a blankket.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are plenty of USA charities helping poor illiterate rgs. You should contact one of them
Aug 25th, 2013 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can summon you like a puppy.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can smell your desperation from here.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I really hope that even though you are still towing the party line publicly you've taken my advice and stocked up on tradable goods and/or hard currency.
Everything I've been telling you is coming to fruition. This next crisis will make 2001 look like a boom.
The next crash will make 2008 look like a bubble.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I feel sorry for you.
Aug 25th, 2013 - 11:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You must be very sad.
It is fear. Fight or flight. TTT puts up a fight. I feel sorry for him and everyone else in Argentina that will have to go through the crisis. But they will come out the other side eventually.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 09:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0The only crisis is the disintegration of the UK, and the collapse of the US dollar. Party is over for you two.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0You forgot to add to your fantasy statement
Aug 26th, 2013 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0SIMPLE AS THAT
Why don't you explain how and why you think that and then tell me what happens to the rest of the world when 2 world powers collapse.
What a ridiculous child you've turned out to be. Your parents should be ashamed.
If the UK collapses, not much will happen, since it is a political disintegration, and England has really been the one in control all along. England will simply just fill in the role.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The US dollar collapsing does not mean the USA will collapse, it will just go through a painful inflationary crisis and readjustment period post-dollar-as-reserve-currency. They will have to drastically cut their military spending (by a third, 250 billion) and likely raise retirement age to 70 years (saving 1 trillion), and raise some taxes and cut marginally some benefits (500 billion). Those three will bring fiscal order and the USA will go one, albeit a much diminishes superpower obviously on the downslope of history, but not over yet, just not what it was.
Of course a couple of states may try to secede, but I think tanks will role in and crush the rebellions.
69 The Truth PaTroll
Aug 26th, 2013 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So if the dollar has had it (ha, ha, ha) WHAT will be the reserve currency?
And don't say bartering.
ELAINEB: You didn't answer my question, which are your fundaments to say that c. f. k's government is in the broke?, why can't they pay?.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 12:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The posture of the government has always been the same, it has always said clearly that it's disposed to pay the vultures, but in the same conditions of those who accepted the two debts re-structurings. So, when you say that they can't pay, it's just one more of your mischievous lectures.
I recommend you a good website, which is crictic of all the governments, including c. f. k's, and it makes SERIOUS reports.
www.chequeado.com
Maybe after searching information in that website, you can start to make serious critics.
GOLFCRONIE: Read what i wrote for elaine b. You can find my answer for you there.
AYAYAY: I have no problem in debating with people who are detractors of kirchnerism, because although i'm a kirchnerist activist, i dont deny that her government committed mistaks too. However, in just a few opportunities i could have interesting conversations with detractors, due to most them just buy the too partial analysis published on the press, including in mercopress.
I have always explained about the omissions commited by clarin, la nación, and mercopress, but even after doing it, in just a few opportunities i had interesting conversations.
Most people here just gave opinions based on their ideologies, but exclude objetive facts, i never leave my ideology behind every time i give opinions, but i don't exclude objetive facts either.
69. I am afraid your educators are sub par and let you get away with hopes and dreams as facts and that is the reason you can never come up with reasoned and thoughtful replies to direct questions.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 01:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The USA will tackle social security and welfare shortly. Our tax revenues and balance of payments will be very positive in the next decade. We have a 150+ yr supply of nat gas and more oil than the Saudis. That will have a profound effect on the world balance. Only to make us much stronger and richer.
I know your knowledge of the outside world is extremely limited but the USA is not Argentina. We tackle our problems head on before they become uncontrollable. Even you should know that by now.
@71 You can't get involved in serious debate because you always start with a personal insult. I can't work out if this is an Argentine or Kirchnerite trait. If you want to debate seriously you have to leave the emotion at the door and not resort to attacking the person offering an opposing argument.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0TTT, what do you think will happen to your country when it runs out of money?
Elaine, Axel is too dumb to bother with, he's happy living on u$250/Mo and being dumb and delusional.. Don't bother with reason he won't get it. It will just frustrate you and he'll never understand.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is really only a problem for US bond holders. My guess is that the Supreme Court will rule against Argentina which will then default. After that Argentina will set up an alternative payment system which will cut out the US holders.
Aug 26th, 2013 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Won't the next default STILL be carried out according to US law?
Aug 27th, 2013 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0The default doesn't change the jurisdiction. And which other jurisdiction will want this? It isn't like anyone is stupid enough to change the jurisdiction to Argentina.
Everyone has seen how closely the Argentine government follows the laws within its own borders.
Also I'm pretty sure that a second default in just over a decade will mean that nothing will change except Argentina will just accelerate its decline down the table of any measure you look at.
Ok guys, does this foreshadow Arg taking their savings oit of NY banks so as not to be touched?
Aug 27th, 2013 - 03:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0That would beso interesting, the gov's reserves eing in Arg pesos, being affected by the same concerns as individuals.
Like the value of the peso dropping 75% in five years (read this on Reddit)
ELAINEB.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 07:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't believe neather in objetivity nor in neutrality, those are just hypocritical concepts, i only believe in intellectul honesty. The fact that i am a kirchnerist activist, it doesn't mean that i can't recognize the mistakes, and the negative aspects of c. f. k's government, in fact, i have always refered to them in many of my comments, because i am not neather idiot nor hypocrite.
I have no problem in discussing with people who are detractors of kirchnerism, but what really annoys me is the lack of respect and underestimation that i often recieve from some people in this forum, every time i post my opinions, just have a look to some comments, and you'll see that i'm telling the truth.
Beside, you accuse me of not leaving my emotions at the door, but in some of your comments, you called c. f. k crazy, do you think you are leaving your emotions at the door every time you express this kind of comments?, i don't think so. I don't retend you to become a k supporter, i just pretend to discuss seriously, but respectfuly.
On the other hand, you haven't answered my question yet. If you see the news today, you'll see that c. f. k's government has decided to re open the debt re structuring in order to show AGAIN that argentina has the politic will of paying the vultures. None nation which doesn't have any intention of paying it's debts makes three debts re structurings, don't you think?. Your speculations are just based on personal opinions but not on objetive facts.
CFK's government is trying to find a way of NOT meeting the court judgement against them. They want the holdout bondholders to accept the percentage previously accepted by others. That was their choice and the holdout bondholders are under no obligation to accept the offer. They didn't accept it and hence the court case that the CFK government lost. They are legally obliged to pay the holdout bondholders in full.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 09:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0CFK is not offering anything new. She is trying to ignore the court ruling because she knows this ruling will push the country into default again. She has said as much.
It is well known CFK has significant mental health issues that make her unsuitable for the position she holds. In addition she has absolutely no idea how to run an economy. She was never meant to rule without the control of Nestor. He knew the monster ego that lurked beneath the botox.
Now before you protest, try to understand the difference between criticising a politician holding a public position and making personal insults about someone posting on this board. YOU should be criticising your government and leader. They should be held to account every single day they hold power.
Elaine when your done trying to teach Axel honor and a bit of economics could I hire you to teach my cat to read?
Aug 27th, 2013 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@80 LOL.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am not trying to change his opinion, though I am curious to hear it. It would carry more weight if he could make an argument rather than just insult a poster for saying something that hits a nerve.
“I don't believe neather in objetivity nor in neutrality, those are just hypocritical concepts, i only believe in intellectul honesty.”
Aug 27th, 2013 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel....that statement in itself is a contradiction. One cannot possess “intellectual honesty” without neutrality and objectivity.
“Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving in academia, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways, including but not limited to:
One's personal beliefs do not interfere with the pursuit of truth;
Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;
Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;
References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided.”
Unbiased what you do not believe in.
@82 Well, quite.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 01:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/23/uniquely-recalcitrant-debtor-argentina-loses-bonds-appeal-next-step-us-supreme-court#comment271559: It doesn't really matter how its considered under US law. What Argentina is doing is swapping US dollars Eurodollars.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But, of course, when a Eurodollar hits the US it reverts back to a US dollar and is subject to the Fed and US courts and so on. That is why I said that this really only effects the US bond holders.
Actually the Argentinian administration is closely following the law within the country. It is illegal for the administration to pay against the original bonds.
From the financial point of view this swap will make no difference. Argentina is already frozen out of the credit markets and has been since 2001.
The Argentinian economy has grown substantially since 2001. However using, say, 1973 as a baseline Argentina has not done well. There were a lot of stupid decisions made but the worst had to be the original 'ARS' which was tied to the dollar. It had all the downside of being in a Euro Zone and none of the benefits.
Good governments understand what bargaining power they have. It's called political capital. Problematically for CFK, she has misunderstood her bargaining power beyond the South American continent, i.e. very little.
Aug 27th, 2013 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As a lawyer, she surely understood that she could only juggle with the faith of the domestic populace for so long. The debts, spending, foreign policy and war on the middle class is catching up on her. Can her foreign antics keep the powerful voting bloc of the poor maintain faith? Unfortunately, the opposition is so pitiful that Kirchnerism will proceed one way or another, even during the inevitable default and revolt.
The only solution to Argentina's woes is a cultural and political purge of the ghosts and politics of Peronism. Some task.
By the way, for all the evils of Vulture Funds, they do have a vital role to play in the liquidity and viability of the sovereign bond market.
Pari Passu: All international bondholders are equal, but some bond issuers believe they are more equal than others.
You guys are missing Nostrils key point.
Aug 28th, 2013 - 06:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina do not belong in the international community. their choice of government (democratically elected) does not share the same values as the majority of humanity.
Argentina sees genorosity as weakness, honesty as weakness, integrity as weakness, courage as weakness.
Argentina sees dishonesty as strength, theft as strength, lies as strength, default as strength.
This is the government chosen by the people of Argentina, the Argentine people need to take responsibility for it, and the international community has to stop wet-nursing it.
I agree with Nostril. Argentina should be removed from any international body. No access to the UN, IMF, World Bank.
No foreign company should be allowed to invest in Argentina.
The world sees Argentina as someone to pity, and Argentina relishes and abuses their kindness. Its time to stop. These people are unlike the majority of humanity...
Perhaps after 50 years or more of isolation as Nostril wishes, and when they start killing each other for a loaf of bread...when they stop blaming others and realise it was them all along...perhaps then..when they vote for honesty rather than lies...they might be suited to rejoining the human race.
ELAINEB.
Aug 30th, 2013 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are you sure that you want to have a critical position, instead of insulting?, if you really think so, then i hope you don't call c. f. k. crazy anymore every time you express your dissagreement.
Where did you get the information about c. f. k's soposed mental problems?, don't you think it's not serious to make this kind of decadent comments, i don't think you can talk to her doctors, do you?, in the same way that i don't think that you have acces to her medical analysis. Every time you make this kind of comments, you show that you can't be a serious detractor of kirchnerism.
In relation to the vultures, i respect you opinion but i don't agree in absolut on what you say, in my opinion none nation which doesn't have any will of paying it's debts makes three debts re estructurings.
On the other hand, you haven't answered my question yet. If it soposes that c. f. k's government is broke, as you love repeating, then answer me a couple of questions.
Why hasn't her government implemented any austerity plan, like those implemented in most european countries, why hasn't her govt. decided to return to the i. m. f., in order to get more debts, to fund public expenditures, as all orthodox governments do?. Maybe now you can answer my question once and for all.
CAPTAIN POPPY: I respect your opinion but i just want to indicate that when i say that i don't believe in objetivity, is because i think that nobody is objetive, everybody express their opinions defending their ideological postures, which is absolutly respectable, anyway, beyond this fact, it doesn't mean that it's not possible to recognize the falencies of the politic project that anybody can deffend. As i do with kirchnerism, i have right to deffend my ideas. As far i'm concerned, many of the ideas i have always had, coincid with what kirchnerism has made in the last 10 years, but i have always criticised also the mistakes and the negative aspects, due to i have always been a critic kirchnerist.
You are attempting to apply the concept of objectivity in the broadest strokes possible. In ideals and ideology, no one is objective. Democrats see the world through democratic core principles, Republicans, Communists alike and so on. That being said.......other judgments, when someone commits a murder, is it bias and subjective to say that is wrong and criminal? Perhaps, but certainly not in the same subjective context as a Democrat and such. There are sets of mores and values that prudent people all around the world find common ground in....right and wrong. To make the statement that someone is not objective in applying judgments within these concepts is a stretch to compare it to it to the subjectivity of ones ideologies.
Aug 30th, 2013 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That being said, defaulting on money Argentina borrowed then defaulted on is deserving of everything that Kirchner brings on your country. Lying about her law degree, though I am sure by now she decreed and had one printed. The land scavenging she and nasty nestor did to the poor and sold at outrageous prices is by far unethical. Did you her hear speak at Harvard last year? She is an outright idiot! And yes....that was subjective. But objectively.....she destroyed Argentina.
CAPTAIN.
Aug 31st, 2013 - 05:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If i talk all the time about having intellectual honesty, is because i'm really tired of hearing many hypocrites who express to be neutral or objetive, but when i listen to their arguments, anybody would realise that they are not neutral. You already know what i think about this issue.
On the other hand, if you don't like kirchnerism, it's as respectable as any other politic expression, but what really annoys me, is that the press often publishes too partial analysis, and many people buy them easily, that's why in this forum i find all the time ignorant comparisons made by forists, which are based on too partial reports.
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