MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina will not accept the remains of Nazi officer Erich Priebke
Argentina will not accept the remains of Nazi war criminal Erich Priebke who died in Italy, officials in Buenos Aires said on Friday. Priebke died in Rome aged 100 after serving nearly 15 years under house arrest for a World War II massacre in Italy for which he never expressed remorse. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesNo in public, yes in private.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No more bodies of Nazi officers, they have too many already.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentines will not accept this kind of affront to human dignity.”
Oct 13th, 2013 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I guess now that the last WWII nazi ex-pat has died, Argentina can at last - after all these years - make this sort of statement.
Doesn't make any difference. Argies are still war criminals. For aiding war criminals and for committing their own war crimes!
Oct 13th, 2013 - 12:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentines will not accept this kind of affront to human dignity.”
Oct 13th, 2013 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So an apology due soon to the Falkland islanders for your fascist government's invasion of 1982 then ?
Argentines crapping everywhere but the toilet-stocking napalm-keeping women and kids locked up in a community hall without facilities that even prisoners take for granted, boobytrapping a school? Leaving Stanley like a garbage dump after only 3 months.
Gollum wouldn't know human dignity if he saw it. Look how undignified he makes himself look.
The German Queen of England should take his European cousin.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 02:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0European war criminals are now South Americas fault.... go reckon....
Oct 13th, 2013 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 07stevie
Oct 13th, 2013 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina harboured those war criminals the rest of the world wanted to arrest, in exchange for money.
Why would you support that?
Weak attempt at deflection.
Good response, Troy
Oct 13th, 2013 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Troy
Oct 13th, 2013 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How many war criminals of our dictatorships aren't hiding in Europe and USA?
The European war crminals are just that, European.
Despite what I believe to be an exaggerated response by the Argentine foreign minister, (yes the same guy that singed the selling out of the Victims of the AMIA to Iran in the same day of the Holocaust rememberance). I think you are being unfair here. It was Peron that sympathized with the Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, and elaborated the escape route for the fugitives in exchange for money. But that was Peron’s decision at the time…
Oct 13th, 2013 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Despite this it was a Peronist government in the early 90s that actually was the first one to take an interest in the matter and find out the truth about of what where till then just rumors.
“Argentines will not accept this kind of affront to human dignity.”
Oct 13th, 2013 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ESPECIALLY AS THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT IN IT.
Despicable government.
@12 It's a very rich statement of Timerman...But don't make things into something they are not.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@11 I agree Peron was a great admirer of fascists, in particular Mussolini, and used his brand of fascism as a template for Peronism. You have to wonder why Peron and Peronism is still so beloved by the majority of Argentines and why no one can get elected unless they claim to be a Peronist.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina allowed many Nazis to hide out in Argentina - for money. It is well documented at the Holocaust Museum in Buenos Aires (well worth a visit). Though some had to move on to Paraguay when Nazi hunters picked up the scent.
Yes, it was other governments in other times. The world evolves as does civilisation. We cannot blame current governments and the people in general for actions carried out in another time, generations ago. Though it should be acknowledged. IMO
It still does not explain the popularity of the Perons, Juan or Eva, considering the foundation of their ideals.
14) They are two different things Peron’s popularity and his connections with the Nazi fugitives.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know Peronism is difficult to understand from outside, but I really don’t think he Peron himself is that admired in the younger generations of Argentines, it’s pretty much the grandpa’s old talk for them. If you mean peronist party as such is much more underrated than you believe, the problem is most of the argentine political spectrum is made up of Peronists or at least have “Peronist DNA” in them. I myself -blonde and from an anti peronist party- can gather a group of friends here adopt the “V” sign and put up a banner of the pictures of Peron and Evita in the central plaza here and run for local office claiming the guys that are now in charge are not real Peronists that follow the original teachings of Peron and Evita… And we would lose because the mayor runs all the assistance and welfare checks, he gets families from outside to squatter land and then facilitates them with the ownership titles so of course all these people of poor backgrounds vote for him.
As for the Nazi fugitives, I think most people here are not interested and even more so are not even aware yet.
However Uki Goñi the producer of “Nazi gold in Argentina” said it’s not something you can speak about freely in public Universities in Argentina. For intellectual circles no matter if they are left or right, it must be pretty embarrassing I suppose
@16 I am not sure Juan Peron's Peronism is that disconnected with the Nazi fugitives. Argentina was pretty much backing the Germans until a few months before the end of the war when it looked like they were going to lose.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 06:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Peron modelled Argentine nationalism on the fascism of the Nazi's and Mussolini and it still resonates now. Kirchnerism uses many of the elements to this day. CFK appears before a picture of Evita at every opportunity. It is still a thread running through Argentine politics.
You are right that well-educated young Argentines see Peron in a different, far more critical light but I know as many that will defend Juan and Evita. Admittedly they appear to be the financially, less educated who swallow fantasies passed down through the generations without independent thought.
I do appreciate that Peronism has evolved but it still uses some of the idealism that continues to hold Argentina back.
16) We’ll definitely Peron in his days in Italy learnt the power of symbolisms like the huge banners these totalitarian regimes used at that time in Europe and the USSR.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Peron may of being a nationalist (maybe even slightly fascist in the early 40s) but unlike Mussolini he had a capacity of bringing into his camp people of different political backgrounds like socialists, communists, trade unionists, desarrollistas, etc. And for that a lot of core beliefs of the original Peron had to be abandoned for the cult of personality and idiosyncrasy that united all of them. So it’s wrong to say Peronism is nationalist as such.
They were sectors of the Argentine army (like the group of officers GOU which Peron was a member of) during the II WW that were pro-Axis and the other important and influential politicians like Patron Costas at that time who were pro-Allied. Though Argentina’s overall neutrality is read by historians like a slight pro-German stance.
Now the Argentine LEFT (which Kirchnerism is inclined with) even the younger generations have a clear preference for Evita above Juan Peron. And that has a lot to do with Peron’s return in 1973 who clashed with the Montoneros. I can give you a couple of examples and proof about statements of Cristina (off the record) and her Chief cabinet minister (on the record) at that time made, to why she is disgusted by J. Peron but they are actually quite rood
@17 LOL, I don't mind rude. I suspect some of CFK's complaints were thinly disguised jibes at her own husband. You can elaborate if you wish.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting discussion.
Argentina's trash bins are already full. Italy: throw this trash in an unknown place in the ocean, that easy.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 018) Well I use different kind of language and diplomacy with other commentators here that I know are male or are not very serious. It’s not the kind of thing you speak about or refer to with well spoken ladies.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2011/07/01/noticia_0018.html
The “Marcha Peronista” or simply referred to as the “Marchita” is the traditional anthem of the Peronist party... This is what Anibal Fernandez responded when the son of the composer (who has the rights over the anthem) denied its use to the kirchenerists for the a political campaign, (I think it was the 2011 one) as he claimed that Kirchnerism is not Peronism…
http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2011/07/01/noticia_0018.html
http://www.perfil.com/contenidos/2011/07/01/noticia_0018.html
Basically the idea of what I’m trying to exemplify is that Peronist symbolism is used and abused by the politicians now days but they don’t take seriously at all the old General mythology behind doors at the vey least...The Peronist left or Montoneros were expelled by Peron when he returned to Argentina in 1973. In fact it is very lickely that he himself supported the formation of the AAA to hunt the communist down. So the crackdown actually started long before the coup in 1976
@20 So the politicians are using an illusion to manipulate the masses whilst not actually believing it?
Oct 13th, 2013 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with the comments about Campora in the article. La Campora have grown mightily since the death of Nestor.
@21
Oct 13th, 2013 - 08:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“So the politicians are using an illusion to manipulate the masses whilst not actually believing it?”
No, really?
@22 Yeah, I know. :)
Oct 13th, 2013 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 021) I don’t know if “illusions” is the correct term I prefer “Symbols”…. Keep in mind that a lot of people in the Conurbano of BA and the shanty towns have being voting Peronist for over 30 years since the end of the dictatorship in 1983. Those are really the orthodox voting core of Peronism and identify with that kind of stuff.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A typically Peronist mayor of any Conurbano district has more real power than a governor of a modest Province like La Rioja, San Luis or Tierra del Fuego, Formosa,etc.
8 Troy Tempest
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentina harbored those war criminals the rest of the world wanted to arrest”
Really?
What about the operation paper clip, thousands of Nazis were taken to US including a proud Waffen SS officer consider the father of NASA( Von Braun)
Well, this move is already more moral than Britain accepting Blair back.
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@25
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raise you one Eichmann and one Mengele.
@26
Is is true under Argienomics you can only import a corpse if you export another one?
@28
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Uncouth waty of dissembling you had no riposte to my asseveration.
@ElaineB
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I agree Peron was a great admirer of fascists”
Nope you are wrong Peron was not an admirer of fascist as you said. That is folk of the necons from “El Campo” and groups that participate in any “coup d'état” in Argentina.
He was sent to Europe by the Army to observe the possible outcomes in Europe due to the irresponsibility of the allies after WWI especially France and UK that imposed a 132 billions Marks plus territory concessions to Germany and that was the beginning of the WWII.
Even John Keynes (British economist) was against that treaty and predicted terrible consequences for Europe.
On the other hand Peron was a fanatic of tinkers like Jacques Maritain (French Philosopher), Emmanuel Mounier (French Philosopher) both obsessed for a society more plural, open, democratic and popular participation. What contradicts with the “El campo golpista folk”, etc.
Anyway if you are interested in fascist and Nazy lovers you have to look for this into British Crown and big fish in UK society at that time.
Here a roadmap:
Prince Philip attending Nazy funerals as normal and his sisters were married with well known Nazy criminals.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-379036/Prince-Philip-pictured-Nazi-funeral.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-379036/Prince-Philip-pictured-Nazi-funeral.html
Edward VIII The Traitor King another Hitler lover
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-379036/Prince-Philip-pictured-Nazi-funeral.html
“We cannot blame current governments and the people in general for actions carried out in another time, generations ago”
I agree with you in this, don’t worry we don’t blame you...
@29
Oct 13th, 2013 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh my gosh! So Argentine fascism is all somebody else's fault? Who would ever have thought it?
May I ask you who do you consider the “El Campo golpista folk”??
Oct 13th, 2013 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.mercopress.com/2013/10/11/paraguay-congress-votes-10-export-tax-on-grains-and-soybeans.-cartes-expected-to-veto-the-bill#comment280547
Hello, how do you do?
Don’t tell me Danny boy, the Army was interested in economic affairs in 1939 (at the dawn of the war) so they sent him to.
18) ElaineB if you are interested in Argentine history and Peronism history revisionism, I can recommend you some books and authors if you come travelling by Argentina again or perhaps you can get them by internet.
Dany
Oct 13th, 2013 - 10:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You supported fascism then, and you support it now.
Obviously, you don't give a shit.
How many US, UK, or Commonwealth countries support fascism ?
32) I don’t agree with DanyBerger, but do you really think Peron knew about the holocaust at the time?? Was he really anti-Semitist? He didn’t gas millions of Jews. He just cared about the money
Oct 13th, 2013 - 11:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When the Mossad captured Eichmann living undercover, Argentina was much more silent then, it complained about the trespassing but not about the abduction of a Nazi criminal. Though now it considers a couple of bones “a affront to human dignity” (Timerman)
Why did even Israel support Argentina in the war in 1982 after Eichmann’s abduction??
Cabezadura Elaine has five or ten friends in Argentina that tells here how things are going in Argentina, doesnt need to read nothing
Oct 14th, 2013 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Britain can lecture nobody.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Nazi hunters condemn UK record on prosecutions”
“Britain has one of the worst track records in hunting down and prosecuting suspected Nazi war criminals, according to a report by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
Britain fares badly in the centre's new table comparing the efforts of the 18 countries which are suspected of housing the most war criminals. Britain was placed in the ”minimal success“ category, with countries such as Argentina, Croatia and Costa Rica”
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/20/warcrimes.world
“Only three of 200 suspected war criminals kicked out of Britain”
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/20/warcrimes.world
34) And you are her spokesperson? It’s not the first time she asks me about these questions so I reckon she is interested or perhaps she is not, I don’t know, thats why im asking her. I would recommend her reading Tata Yofre or Ceferino Reato, etc that you can find in any bookstore here, but I assume you can order it from abroad too because they are best sellers, I have no plans in meeting her whatsoever if it is that what you mean… But In fact (and more importantly) many more Argentines can start reading those books too. Start accepting things and history as it really is and stop selling smoke abroad and dining things that are vox populi. Argentines are accusing of UK of the same, but the fact is it was Britain that went to war with the Axis not Argentina. All nations have skeletons in the closet in their history. Nowbody has to be ashamed and hide of ones nations history…
Oct 14th, 2013 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tata Yofre books are your sources????
Oct 14th, 2013 - 12:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0hmmmmmmm
I dont agree with many things of what you say, never care either, but this part of what you say “many more argentines can star reading these books too. Star ACCEPTING things and history as it really is::::” according to you, others can have other point of view, and you arent owner of the truth to say others what to think or that they are wrong.
37) Indeed malen I’m always open to reading other sources as long as they are honest and credible authors, If you have something to recommend that is not of my ideology I will gladly take my time to look over it in the bookstore and if it is convincing enough I will buy it. Juan Bautista Yofre seems very honest, he is very detailed and meticulous about his sources, apart from that he was the boss of the SIDE so he is very well informed. I enjoyed a lot “El Escarmiento” and “1982”, that was an eye opener for me, and I bought “Todos fuimos” but never had time to really finish it… Which ones have you read that made you conclude otherwise? Have you read any of his work (please by honest)?
Oct 14th, 2013 - 01:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0go to the bookstore and search solito for the“ honest and credible” authors that are different to your ideology. generally there exist a person for that work, you should ask her/him.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 01:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0“please be honest”, I never read a book of Yofre and would not do it either, xq no se me da la gana, very honestly saying.
good luck cabezadura
No there is no such thing, obviously you have ever being to the bookstore, just as I thought. They are just sell girls that look over in the computer if there is anything in stock under the authors name or the books name, they cant possibly give an opinion on every book there they only have an idea of what genre there is…Your ignorance and hypocrisy is appalling because you are very swift in judging and dismissing Yofre’s credibility and mine only because I read him (which you have not). Sos bastante mala leche y malco, malen....
Oct 14th, 2013 - 02:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0(40) CabezaDura
Oct 14th, 2013 - 05:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yofré?
Read and “Think”, pebete...... read and “Think”
http://www.revistaafuera.com/NumAnteriores/pagina.php?seccion=Articulos&page=07.Articulos.Campos.htm&idautor=151
@35
Oct 14th, 2013 - 05:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Idiot, comparing the country who fought them for six years, with a country that supported them for six years and protected them for another sixty, your such h a dickhead.
Go home you ingrate!
@CabezaDura
Oct 14th, 2013 - 06:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Reading crap from Tata Yofre and Ceferino Reato ha ha
First what have to do Peron with the Holocaust WWII to start with?
Peron was studding and making reports about the consequences in Europe before started the WWII.
Peron came to power in 1946 while the WWII was finish in 1945 (a year before). So as you can see NO Peron influence or whatsoever with Germany during WWII or Nazi Germany. Just folklore from the Necons (The campo Mafia golpist and foreigner interest).
In fact one of the bigger supported of Germany pre WWII was an Argentine Radical president called Hipólito Yrigoyen who shut up the door behind him upsetting the League of Nations allies (US, Britain and France). Because he did not disagree to support the allies to put Germany outside the league of nations. This cost to Argentina to start to be marginalised by the allies and huge cost in trade.
This was all made by the Radical and not Peron as the tale says.
Germany took this gesture as full support for Germany from Argentina and the Nazi party started to organised meetings in Argentina like the meeting of the Nazi party in ‘30 in the “Luna Park”.
Again No Peron around there as him came to power 16 years later.
Then Hipólito Yrigoyen was deposed by General Uriburu with another typical “coup d 'éta” supported by “El Campo”, the press and the Seven Sisters (Oil companies producer) because he allowed YPF (Oil State Company) to intervene in the market to fix price.
I remind you that the “Times Magazine” (US) awarded Adolf Hitler with a full cover and the title of the man of the year.
The American Charles Lindbergh was a fanatic supporter of Adolf Hittle like many, many Americans and British at that time.
“I’m always open to reading other sources as long as they are honest and credible authors”
What do you mean?
Like Tata Yofre and Ceferino Reato perhaps?
I have a good book called “The good things of Capitalism” written by Stalin
Do you want to buy a copy? Ha ha
@ CabezaDura. Thanks for the book recommendations. I shall be back in SoAm next week but not Argentina this time so I shall search them out on internet.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 07:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0I see the usual suspects spend more time trying to discredit anyone offering an opposing view than debating. For what it is worth I lived in Buenos Aires sporadically and my work took me the length and breadth of Argentina.
As a general point to some contributors to this thread, if you refuse to read the words of anyone you vaguely consider does not follow your narrow indoctrinated views, how can you ever form a considered and credible conclusion?
@43
Oct 14th, 2013 - 07:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Was that a different Juan Domingo Peron who was a member of the 1943-45 military government?
Good discussion ... particularly liked the dialogue/monologue by CD/Elaine (Just joking; I really do think you are separate people (but how would we know?)).
Oct 14th, 2013 - 08:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0@HansNiesund
Oct 14th, 2013 - 08:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0Peron was in charge of the National Department of Labour at that time with no influence in other matters.
He provided better working condition for workers and those actions gained the anger of Greedy Neocon US ambassador Spruille Braden and “El campo maffia” who were quite busy organising campaigns against Peron at that time.
One of them was to portrait Peron as a Nazi.
But what was behind all this?
Greedy Braden didn’t care a thing about Nazis or whatsoever.
His only concern was that those improvements condition for workers don’t set a bad example and that will widespread to the rest of SA where he has commercial interest like in mining in Chile and agri-business elsewhere.
He also was a lobbyist of the United Fruit Company and participated in the “coup d’ eta” in Gautemala.
Despite all hard working from Braden and the Maffia Campo Peron become president in 1946.
Come on sing now...
Peron Peron how big you are my general...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQhEsgC5nug
Wow I think I gonna dance this... ha ha
40 why is it so important for you Yofre???
Oct 14th, 2013 - 10:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0he is suspected of illegal traffic of mails, he was processed in justice.
tiempo.infonews.com/2013/09/10/argentina-109077-confirman-los-procesamientos-de-tata-yofre-y-pagni.php
You can look by yourself in the bookstore what you like.Felipe Pigna you can search.
I dont answer offenses. Its so low offending, entendés??
@34
Oct 14th, 2013 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Watch those double negatives mate.
Hey, doesn't Priebke look like Pierce Brosnan in another 20 years time?
43 DanyBerger..“First what have to do Peron with the Holocaust WWII to start with?”
Oct 14th, 2013 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did I ever say he did?? Read again. What Peron was definitely responsible for was organizing a escape route for the Nazi criminals in hiding in Europe and bring them over to Argentina in exchange for dirty money. If you want to deny this fact, go ahead… But I warn you, you are going to look awfully silly………..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks7-A-7Zvak&list=PLjEVBN0U8jR-EYGPLIUC3i0AvY_Zx4OvL
PS: Lock up your boy… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks7-A-7Zvak&list=PLjEVBN0U8jR-EYGPLIUC3i0AvY_Zx4OvL Ha ha!
48) Ohh don’t tell me they are now dusting out charges against Pagni & Yofre. Don’t you just love attacking good journalist and freely robbing their credibility… I remember when “the video” first came out in 678 where Pagni was taking bribes to write fraudulent stuff against the government in 2009…They were like “yeah this video is on YT, we don’t know where it came from, or who made it, we don’t take any responsibility for its reproduction, but let’s just watch it on air, shall we?? UNBELIVEABLE , and what joke!! A Pagni hace tiempo que se la tienen jurada… No me digas que no
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks7-A-7Zvak&list=PLjEVBN0U8jR-EYGPLIUC3i0AvY_Zx4OvL
You have to accept that Yofre is the former head of the exSIDE so he has access to many documents and he obviously has people and contacts who inform him of what are going on nowadays and the leak information.
My Dad had read Pigna some years ago before he passed away I think he may still has those books around in one of his shelfs, but since Pigna has become the official historian of the Kirchnerism I distrust him, but I may well give him another chance now that you reminded me of him, and browse over his newest work when I next go to the bookstore.
Y por ultimo no tires la piedra y escondas la mano, bien que te consta que yo te venía hablando bien.
The article doesnt talk of a video, but of “pinchar” mails.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Second, I really care un rábano of Yofre, Pagni, Pigna, or the kirchnerism or whatever is political, no one is saint.
How can a country complain about past nazis when they have de facto taken over as today's nazis?
Oct 14th, 2013 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Everyone knows Britain today has the largest underground culture of nazism in western Europe, worse than France and Germany. And in Europe only second or third to Russia and some other country.
Fool me once, shame on... me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODHgoLqODoA
Fool me twice, shame on.. me again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODHgoLqODoA
Fool me thrice, shame on.... uggghh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODHgoLqODoA
Fool me fourthrice.... go back to Nwegwrakwika?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODHgoLqODoA
Londonistan... that bastion of tolerance.
(50) CabezaDura
Oct 14th, 2013 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say to Malen...:
“ Bien que te consta que yo te venía hablando bien.”
I say...:
Yeahhhhh..... Until she dared to diverge from your “acceptable line”.
As soon as she did la basureaste de lo lindo.....
(51) malenitantiK....
Never mind CabezaDura....
Al pibe este le falta calle...... Mucha calle......
@CabezaDura
Oct 14th, 2013 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Did I ever say he did?? Read again”
You are tying harder but unfortunately dates and historic facts cannot provide you a line to links events to picture Peron better know as “el Pocho” as a Nazi or whatever you are trying to prove to your ridicule statements.
Are you not relative of Lilita DesCarrio perhaps?
Here we go again
“What Peron was definitely responsible for was organizing a escape route for the Nazi criminals in hiding in Europe and bring them over to Argentina in exchange for dirty money”
You are wrong again the “Ratline” or “The route of rats” or “The Vatican's Rat Line” was organised (as you can realise) by the name by the “Holy Vatican” in Europe.
You know this little place where everyone are dressed with funny stuff, always are rumouring funny stuff to the sky (BTW none never answer) and you have a compatriot there with a funny name called Francis, Francisco or better know in Italian as Francesco.
Sai cosa voglio dire?
So next time you see Bergoglio or Francisco or... around ask him why the Vatican provided criminal Nazis with passports and fake papers to emigrate to other countries. Will you please?
And in fact more of them ended up in US and UK.
What Peron did as many other countries like US, UK, etc. was to recruit scientist and engineers from Germany, Austria, and Italy.
Like Kurt Tank who designed the “Pulqui” a jet fighter in Argentina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tank
And always with the help of the “oli-garcas smelling poop cow” and little help from their friends started the rumour. You know?
Ask “Lilita DesCarrio” about it she has a good training in doing that kind of stuff.
BTW have you heard the Heavy metal version?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tank
ha ha
53 Thank you, ThinkproK
Oct 14th, 2013 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you “think” I should buy a book of Yofre (I have nothing against him, I ve seen him on interviews and sths are interesting) to start accepting things and history as it “really” is ???
CD history and things are so controversial, that no one knows how they really are, and generally are not in only one way.
(55) malen
Oct 14th, 2013 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not so proK as you think...
But I have (still) a good memory...
And I remember 2001-03 como si fuera ayer...
And the memories are not pretty......... not pretty at all...
Saludos
El Think
@52
Oct 14th, 2013 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Blacks, there are no blacks in Argentina, that's Brazils problem.”
Now which fine upstanding example of a son of the Glorious Republic, uttered those famous word?
51) To hell with Yofre, Pagni, Pigna, Pogni, Pongui, etc. LOL…Sure malen, you may not like what I write but you still clearly do like me.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 054) The Vatican provided aid to the Nazis too, but Argentina as it declared war on Germany on the verge of the fall of Berlin, the Navy was sent to Europe and by doing so it was already there taking in the fugitives. Most of them remained in hiding through Europe until they can finally get away of what we are talking about one year or a couple. It’s true that some of the criminals left Argentina, but that was only possible with new passports…Argentine Passports. Not only Germans arrived, a lot of Nazis from Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Vichy France and Italy escaped too. Its imssible to know how many actually came in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoJBC-Us83U
A highly interesting discussion here.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From a governmental and political position, I would not want the remains back either. The man was a member of the SD, which committed a number of crimes in Italia, the cave massacre being only one..
Foreign Minster Timmerman is only grandstanding for political points. Priebke's family, or his lawyer no doubt already had prior plans for his death and his remains.
But one important lesson is missing here, that is germane to current affairs.
In the YouTube interview with then Sr. Erich Priebke in Argentina, before he was deported, and tried, .Priebke claims “ I was just following orders. That is what you had to do then. ” Sound familiar ?
This is what the many Truth Commissions are all about currently. And more are coming.
Many of the above comments are ridiculous, cynical attempts to infer one country or the other is somehow more nazi than the other, somehow on the side of Germany in WW2. Teetering on the edge of Godwins law.
Oct 14th, 2013 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And I can dig out a few little freakish pro nazi quirks of WW2 for certain people above if they really want. These little factoids will be certain evidence of undeniable guilt .... well, to the pedantic web ranter type anyway.
ooooOHOo ... loosely connected individual cases..says it all really, bunch of nazis.
42 reality check
Oct 15th, 2013 - 02:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Zzzzzzzzz I told you already that I don't live in Ukistan...but your Nazi prince Harry does..
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2076816_2076800_2076811,00.html
61 Marcos Eichmann
Oct 15th, 2013 - 03:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Zzzzzzzzz I told you already that I don't live in Ukistan...but your Nazi prince Harry does.. ”
Really, after 60 comments, you can't rebut ANYTHING, but only come up with an off-subject racist comment and totally unrelated diversion??
You've shown your prejudice against the Brits and your racism against the Pakistani people, yet no condemnation of the actions of the Nazis or the Argentinians who harboured those war criminals.
You must think of yourself as one of the new Campora “Supermen”
:-D
Canadian marionette
Oct 15th, 2013 - 03:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0I already answered your question. Racism against the Pakistani ? what? Que?
I love Malala not your friends the Taliban.
8 Troy Tempest
“Argentina harbored those war criminals the rest of the world wanted to arrest”
Really?
What about the operation paper clip, thousands of Nazis were taken to US including a proud Waffen SS officer consider the father of NASA( Von Braun)
@CabezaDura
Oct 15th, 2013 - 04:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0“The Vatican provided aid to the Nazis too”
No, no, no is not “TOO”, the Vatican played the main role in the escape of Criminal Nazis from Europe. Without their help none could emigrate to anywhere. Capisce ragazzo?
Now you have to wonder what the Vatican have received in exchange for these favours? Gold perhaps?
“but Argentina as it declared war on Germany on the verge of the fall of Berlin...”
Argentina declare war to the Japan Empire together with many others American nations in 1945 under the umbrella of the “Panamerican Conference of Mexico” where 20 American Nations agreed to declare war to Japan in solidarity with US that was still in war with Japan.
The war declaration was signed by de facto “President Edelmiro Julián Farrell” of Argentina in 1945 “DECRETO Nº 6945/45 B.O. 28 de marzo de 1945”
Here you have the news of the signing by Chile in 1945
http://www.emol.com/especiales/infografias/20050412_guerrajapon01.htm
Then was signed the TIAR and later was formed the OEA.
The film “Oro Nazi” made by Rolo Pereyra (death) of your link is a thriller based on a book wrote by “Jorge Camarasa” a journalist of the Clarin Group and La Nacion. All conspiracy theory that provide him a job in the Jewish org nazi hunters “Samuel Wiesenthal” they love all these stuff. Yo can go too, may be you will get a job too.
Anyway who didn’t want to declare war to Germany and Italy were “Roberto M. Ortiz” (Partido Radical) and his vice president who become later President “Ramón Castillo” (Partido Demócrata Nacional) Conservator.
Ramon Cantillo, sent a letter to US president Roosevelt telling him that his government (of Argentina) did not consider US in state of a belligerent country and that his government keeps the position of neutrality and that will not declare war to Germany or Italy.
Now, what next?
Are you going to tell me that you have pictures of Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden on vacation in Bariloche with Cristina Kirchner?
ha ha
Herr Marcos
Oct 15th, 2013 - 07:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Re. “Thousands ”of Nazis allowed to escape to the US by operation Paperclip:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/OperationPaperclip.html
127 scientists to help the US war effort against Japan.
A total of 1,600 top technicians and scientists were brought to the US before they were captured by the Soviets - ideological enemies of the US and Democracy.
Argentina??
Nazi's, the likes of Priebke, escape prosecution and go into Argentine politics.
The Mengeles and Eichmanns and other sadistic genocidists pay the Argentine government in stolen wealth, to live free from prosecution and extradition for their crimes.
How can you support this, Marcos
The Vatican are responsible for their own actions and they don't have a good track record.
Troy
Oct 15th, 2013 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Europena war criminals are still nothing more than just that.
European.
Not only do we in SA have to deal with that type of scum, now it's also our fault...
Is Europe to blame for all those war criminals from SA that chose to flee to Europe?
No, I didn't think so.
CabezaDura: I recommend reading the book Malvinas, the secret plot.
Oct 15th, 2013 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Malvinas, la trama secreta de Eduardo Van der Kooy, Ricardo Kirschbaum y Oscar Cardozo.
64) Que mas también vas a negar, el FIAMBRE ESTE NO EXISTE AHORA????!!!! Que HDP!
Oct 15th, 2013 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are a DENIER, a HIPOCRIT and a LIAR DanyBerger …. So it’s all Zionist propaganda is it when it comes to Argentina, but all the stuff you gather about Nazis in UK and the US is not?? LOL
Are you quite thick aren’t you? Argentina DID declare WAR ON GERMANY, FACT
The interim government which Peron already had a prominent role by then. Argentina could of entered the whenever it liked, the Brazilians where already there, but it chose to do so in April 1945.
http://constitucionweb.blogspot.com.ar/2009/11/argentina-declara-la-guerra-alemania-y.html
Before all the books and documentaries, it was Carlos Menem that formed a commission (CEANA) to investigate the whereabouts of the Nazis in Argentina and declassify the intelligence documents in 1997.
Uki Goñi also wrote: “Perón y los alemanes. La verdad sobre el espionaje nazi y los fugitivos del Reich” (1998)
“La Auténtica Odessa. La fuga nazi a la Argentina de Perón” (2002).
But I guess they are all puppets of this so called Zionist lobby. Even a Congressional commission is surely going to be co-opted by Zionists. Clarin and La Nacion are the main graphic and media sources of Argentina it’s simple as that and they end up doing all the research. But what is the point I mean why will I bother by reading and searching information if you are going to brand it all as Zionist propaganda, whats the point in even taking you seriously. Do you have any idea of what I consider your sources and mentality to be ??
http://constitucionweb.blogspot.com.ar/2009/11/argentina-declara-la-guerra-alemania-y.html
http://constitucionweb.blogspot.com.ar/2009/11/argentina-declara-la-guerra-alemania-y.html http://constitucionweb.blogspot.com.ar/2009/11/argentina-declara-la-guerra-alemania-y.html
66 Stevie
Oct 15th, 2013 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What you post has merit BUT the countries of SA DID NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THEM AND MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE MONEY TO DO SO!
Malvinense1833 I could read it: i've heard of it before somewhere, after looking at the critics it does more or less have the same model of Yofre's “1982”. I read that one in a day and a half, two years ago when it was published.
Oct 15th, 2013 - 05:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://es.shvoong.com/humanities/history/1621540-malvinas-la-trama-secreta/
66stevie
Oct 15th, 2013 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You (Argentina) actively sought to profit from war criminals pursued by your new allies, by setting up a system to take' their '( stolen?) gold in exchange for safety from extradition and prosecution.
The men you were hiding committed atrocities against civilians, as Concentration Camp personnel, or as the architects of Hitler's “Final Solution”.
Your “eleventh hour” ALLIES just fought a costly war to bring down Hitler and Mussolini's fascist regimes and bring the perpetrators to Justice, and you hid them for profit.
You recognise the “Europeans ” as criminals, and yet as Argentinians and SA, you sought to aid them.
That says a lot about your real allegiances and morals, or lack thereof.
How can you support these acts?
@71 Troy Tempest
Oct 15th, 2013 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ARGENTINA actively sought to profit from war criminals”(?) ..... 71 comments on this thread about this subject, cited documentaries and references and its clear you haven’t understood anything
No Troy
Oct 15th, 2013 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That says a lot of our governments up to until some 11 years ago in our (Uruguayan) case.
That lot was just as guilty as the war criminals we received from Europe.
Same lot that introduced our own dictatorships some decade later.
Same lot that fled to USA, Europe and between our own borders after things got hot.
And in some extense, the same lot that still moans loud in the SA right wing, that still wants to use force to impose their will.
Criminals.
The whole lot.
73) And you are the other extreme.... Never going to accept nor admit the slightest guilt of anything. Tipical leftist backward mentality, europeans may not know you well, but I do know what you. You support Cuban incursions in Latam and Africa, you support the terrorist in Colombia. I know what you are..
Oct 15th, 2013 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The slightest guilt of what?
Oct 15th, 2013 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Vos también pediste perdón”
Remember?
If this is to be believed, even the Nazi fugitives themselves were perplexed at the level of support and succor they were getting from Peron. It seems that the aim of this support was less to preserve the people than it was to preserve the mindset and ideology.
Oct 15th, 2013 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Job done, I'd say, in yhatvrespect. Left and right. You can see it here any day.
http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-and-defense-policy/regional/latin-america/perons-nazi-ties/
@76 HansNiesund
Oct 15th, 2013 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So basically Falcoff concludes this based on just an opinion of a Croatian Priest in Rome (?) These people would escape to Argentina to change their identity and life, keep a very low profile undercover for almost another 40-50 years until they were elderly harmless creeps chased by ghosts, right up until the 1990s (when this came out publically). Yet somehow they were a moral reserve during all this time and did manage to input some sort of behavior or ideology in modern Argentine society, that only you are aware of … (Wow!!)
I guess it must be easier for you to brand us as a whole bunch of Nazis….
72 Cabeza Dura
Oct 16th, 2013 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Please tell me exactly how so many wealthy Nazis fugitives ended up in your country and lived out the rest of their natural lives, if it were not got the complicity of the Argentine government?
78) CEANA estimates are at least 180, Wiesenthal institute are around 300… http://www.informereservado.net/noticia.php?noticia=12259
Oct 16th, 2013 - 12:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Peronism was only in power until 1955, after which it remained outlawed from politics until returned in 1973 and by then they had much different and urgent matters to attend to they were amongst a civil war between themselves. The next Peronist government came to power in the early 1990s, and it was Menem’s Government that actually did the declassification of information which later produced what we know today and facilitated the extradition of for example this guy here, which now one wants his remains.
I don’t know if the UCR and Military governments may have know about the likelihood of some Nazi in hiders, it was clear when Eichmann was abducted in the 60s, but the existence of a actual network set up by Peron in Europe to bring over criminals and fugitives is unlikely
Troy say what you will but Argentina never had a version of the British Freicorp, yep British men fought for hitler, Argentine men didn't.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 01:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nor did Argentina hand over the sudentenland to the nazis.
Or store nazi gold.
Or have a monarch who sympathised with hitler.
Or have a national football team who nazi saluted hitler.
Or have fascist blackshirts in the thousands marching through the capital.
Prince Phillip was educated in the hitler youth.
Oh look theres prince Harry wearing a swaztika. tut tut
All of this meaningless of course. But lets not go down the road of throwing enough stuff til something sticks, it cynical and futile.
79 Cabeza
Oct 16th, 2013 - 01:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you. Interesting.
80 Vestige
As you say, “meaningless”.
However, the British fought a war to stop fascism and the Nazis.
Their actions and their values were clear.
Argentina did nothing to stop them, just sold them supplies.
Troy 'Argentina did nothing to stop them'
Oct 16th, 2013 - 03:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Neither Canada, Britain nor USA.
“As many as 8,000 ex-Nazis whose wartime activities should have been probed by Allied authorities reached Canada or Britain by questionable means”
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/27/thousands-of-nazis-escaped-across-the-world-including-to-canada-book/
Friend of yours UVic boy?
“Canadian Tourist arrested for giving Heil Hitler! salute in holiday photo outside Reichstag”
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/27/thousands-of-nazis-escaped-across-the-world-including-to-canada-book/
@Marcos Alejandro
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0US and UK where among the countries with more fans of Nazism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7thvYlt1I&list=PLC2571462462375F2
Ha ha
@CabezaDura
oh! seem i touched a nerve here ha ha.
Insulting me, citing articles from blogspot and authors of books with at least dubious background will not help you to make credible your inaccurate data and fallacies.
“But I guess they are all puppets of this so called Zionist lobby”
Are they?
“Clarin and La Nacion are the main graphic and media sources of Argentina it’s simple as that and they end up doing all the research”
Clarin and La Nacion are the main source of crap for old people over 50 in Argentina. None under this age read them.
“But what is the point I mean why will I bother by reading and searching information if you are going to brand it all as Zionist propaganda”
How many times are you going to use the word zionist in your empty rhetoric?
Are you sure you are not a member of the American Nazi Party?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7thvYlt1I&list=PLC2571462462375F2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7thvYlt1I&list=PLC2571462462375F2
“Do you have any idea of what I consider your sources and mentality to be ??”
I don’t know and simply why I should care?
Just waiting for the pictures of Adolf, Bin and Cristina on vacation in Bariloche.
Ha ha
Dany and Marcos
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0You 'should' be experts on this stuff, as members of La Campora, CFK's own “Hitler Youth”
Stevie
Oct 16th, 2013 - 08:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your logic is fundamentally flawed.
Firstly Continents are not “responsible” for anything. Britain is no more responsible for what Sweden does than Argentina is for what Peru does.
Continents are geographical terms, Vietnam happens to be in the same continent as Yemen, it is in no way responsible for Yemeni activity...so this idea that you can hold continents responsible is straight out of the Nostril bumper book of being a turd.
It is especially ridiculous when you are trying to hold the European continent responsible for its 20th century activities, and seperating it from countries South America...which is a product of the activities of certain European countries in the 16-20th centuries.
Countries are responsible for their actions, and as we have established previously, Uruguay has very few actions to be responsible for. Their share of genocide in South America perhaps...and then nothing. Nothing bad, nothing good..nothing...yawn
Argentina on the other hand has got things to take responsibility for, but they don't. The list of Argentine reasons to be ashamed is long, and its hard to think of a counter-balance, anything at all for which they should be proud.
Your racism and hatrid of the UK is your childish perogative, you can rightly point out to the many incidents in history for which the UK could be ashamed, and at the same time ignore the long list for which it should be proud...better than having no list of either like Uruguay.
your perogative Stevie...makes you look ridiculous though.
@77
Oct 16th, 2013 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think you're all a bunch of Nazis. I don't even think Peron was an actual Nazi. I certainly don't think you personally are.
What I do think is there is a distinctive political culture in Latin America that was deeply sympathetic to fascism, that privided refuge and succor to thousands of arseholes, that continued to thrive long after the Second World War, and that still has presence and influence today. You can see its traces notably in the way that politicians from all points of the spectrum talk about Falkland islanders.
Monkey
Oct 16th, 2013 - 08:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0When I say European criminals are European, I mean it.
Franco in Spain
Mussolini in Italy
Hitler in Germany
Those are all genocides and historical murderers.
Bur there is more, there are places that have been victims of other criminals.
Albania and Palestine comes to mind.
You see, Europe has so many criminals, I can't be bothered telling you all their stories and origins in order for you not to feel targetted...
Dany #83
Oct 16th, 2013 - 09:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0'Clarin and La Nacion are the main source of crap for old people over 50 in Argentina. None under this age read them.'
Everybody of first voting age and over should be reading Clarin and La Nacion regularly - otherwise how will they know how to vote?
@83 Nope, I don’t insult you to help my case at all. I don’t need to. I insult you because you are clearly a retarded f_cker.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie
Oct 16th, 2013 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0You see you are doing it again, you are trying to tar a continent with the brush of the actions of some of the countries within it.
Is India responsible for the actions of polpot in Cambodia?
Should Jordan be responsible for Stalin in Russia?
Is Japan responsible for Genghis khan?
They are all Asians.
Its ludicrous.
There are no continental countries (except Antartica) and certainly no collective responsibility for a continents history or actions. Just countries that happen to be in continents.
So your original post about South America taking responsibility for European criminals is IGNORANT BULLSHIT.
Argentina (which happens to be in South America) has to take whatever responsibility it wishes concerning a German (which happens to be in Europe) criminal who lived there for decades.
Stop talking such shit and grow up.
Monkey
Oct 16th, 2013 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0If a continent is free of guilt by generalisation, so is a country.
So find the responsable persons for mentioned atrocities and stop blaming the ones of your limited selection.
Damn boy, at least be consistent in your argumentation...
81 - troy
Oct 16th, 2013 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Heres a quick wiki quote.
”During World War II, 4,000 Argentines served with all three British armed services, even though Argentina was officially a neutral country during the war.[40][41] Over 600 Argentine volunteers served with both the Royal Air Force and the Royal Canadian Air Force, mostly in No. 164 (Argentine) squadron,[42] whose shield bore the sun from the Flag of Argentina and the motto, ”Determined We Fly (Firmes Volamos)“.[40]”
I guess that balances the scales then by your simplistic reasoning on this matter.
Had it been the case that the above didn't happen no doubt minor individual incidents would be used to infer an entire nation of pro-nazi fascists.
And I'd hasten to add that indeed “the British fought a war to stop fascism and the Nazis” .... but among other interests, such as self preservation, ...both blighty and nicely profitable bits of the empire.
It wasn't just 'mission go save Europe and the Jews'. Certainly not when German boots got as far as to be on British soil in Jersey.
Less of the extremes.
@CabezaDura
Oct 16th, 2013 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0The funny thing about you is that you blame everybody else to be a fascist but the only one here acting like a fascist is you.
You have insulted the Bolivian president with your despective and clear racist comments in other article.
You are insulting me because you are certain that I’m darky, poor, without education and smoke “Paco”.
Snif, snif
What next?
Gas chamber for me because I pointed out that you where deliberately lying about Peron and history facts?
What wrong with you man?
Are you upset because now we (the darkies) from villa 31 earn 16.000 per month, have notebooks, Leds flat TV (to see fubol p’ todos) and we can pay our master in Engineering in Germany or Italy?
Viva Evo MOrales, Herr Kommandant Chavez, El Che, Peron, Fidel and I don’t want to forget to patriotic Moreno.
Can we listen some good musik now from el Pollito Mix?
CUMBIAS ENGANCHADAS 2013 all rights reserved (c) Pollito Mix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVKTBn1I3Rg
Ta' reguenaza!!!!!
ha ha
Stevie
Oct 16th, 2013 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are talking Rubbish...almost gibberish.
Firstly a continent is not responsible for anything, so your initial premise is bullshit. A continent is just a land-mass, there is no continent on Earth that speaks with a unified voice, that represents a single group of people or has ever gone to war “as a continent”. Quite simply that argument is bullshit.
It is this ignorance that leads to such statements as SAM for SAM that some of the malvinistas troll...utter utter crap.
So, once you have lost that argument, you then seem to try and argue that countries are not responsible for their actions only individuals. this made me laugh a great deal as it undermines all you anti-british rhetoric for the past year or so. However, it too is bullshit.
Most countries are either governed by the will of the people, the vote of the people or the de facto consent of the people. Occassionally, there are despotic leaders acting clearly against the interests of the populus with no vehicle to for their own people to do anything about it...since you are against international intervention you indirectly condone this form of oppression and genocide.
However, I disgree that the majority of atrocities are the fault or responsibility of a few individuals, the nation state that either elected or failed to control them is where the responsibility lies.
The inconsistancy lies with you Stevie, your racist hatrid has blinded you once more...Poor puny Stevie and his inferiority complex.
73 Stevie
Oct 16th, 2013 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are being disingenuous as to why military rule took effect in Uruguay.
Had it not been for “your lot” (the terrorists who had Pepe as a member) and their lack of insight as to the expected outcome of their “putting the country right” then the military would not have gone from a boy scout operation to the eventual drain on the finances of the country. NOR would it have got hold of the idea that THEY knew better than the people themselves.
I have to say here, that the people stood by and did nothing whilst the 3,000 thugs raided banks, etc.and it took a killing to start the decline in public support for the band, led by an illiterate “lawyer”, who NEVER passed the final exam (bit of a trend in SA for this), but of course HE knew better!
Of course Pepe is exactly what the present school children should have as an example to follow. I still remember the stupid comment he made about he is not worried by inflation because he went through it with no problems. Of course he did, HE ROBBED BANKS, FFS! And now he is the President.
The nearest thing to it in Britain / Ireland is the disgrace of having the two IRA murderers in power for part of N. Ireland. At least the British in N. Ireland have the measure of them. Good RCC members they are, so that’s alright.
Monkeymagic.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now I don't know if you're pointing the finger at Argentina, but if you are then lets take your comment...
“However, I disgree that the majority of atrocities are the fault or responsibility of a few individuals, the nation state that either elected or failed to control them is where the responsibility lies”.
... and then have a look at 1960's Kenya. (mass detentions, concentration camps and casual, as you will, executions and severe beatings)
As for ChrisR's references to northern Ireland, if we go by monkeymagic's standard then Britain is a whole lot closer to fascism in recent years than Argentina has ever been, for its actions against a specific demographic i.e Catholics and/or Irish nationalists...nazi's had that ... Internment without reason ... nazi's had that... denial of civil rights ... nazi's had that ... civilian massacres ... nazi's had that ... single demographic police force ... nazi's had that.
DanyBerger: “”You are insulting me because you are certain that I’m darky, poor, without education and smoke “Paco”.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Snif, snif””
Nope, again I will reply to you… I insult you because you are clearly a retarded f_cker.
I did not say anything xenophobic against Morales, on the contrary I feel quite sorry for him and Bolivia more so for having him as a president. He doesn’t even know how to read out loud and only talks (and believes) extreme populist rubbish, but unlike the rest of the scum presidents an dictators you have listed there, this is poor man isn’t as cynical evil spirited as they are. It’s someone you just can’t take seriously. And he is not taken seriously even amongst the Correa, CFK, Maduro, Dlma, etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xevSqF6n9Y
Btw I wouldn’t go for consumption of “Pollito” that shit has hormones that make you fail in your manhood….Evo dixit.
I have nothing against gay people and people eating chicken but it has also affected your brains too
Vestige
Oct 16th, 2013 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Exactly my point. Britain is responsible for the atrocities you mention. Not a few individuals..Britain. Britian is also responsible for discoveries such as Penicillin, not just Alexander Fleming. How many Kenyans are still alive becaus eof that single discovery?
You see dickhead there are two sides to the British coin, many terrible things to be ashamed of, and many wonderful things for which to be proud.
Uruguay also has two sides to its coin, both are pretty much blank.
Argentinas coin only has one side, humilating, shameful, disgraceful genocide, corruption, debt and cowardice. That is not just the fault of Peron or Videla or Kirchener...it is the fault of the nation state of Argentina...for allowing such a shameful past.
Hahahaha
Oct 16th, 2013 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now he takes credit for the penicillin as well...
At least he is re-inventing the belly button syndrome.
Hahahaha
96 Vestige
Oct 16th, 2013 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You seem either to be deliberately misinterpreting my post re the IRA and their RCC bloodlines, so I will be clear.
The majority of the people in N. Ireland want to stay with Britain, it is only the scum IRA, aided by the RCC who want to level the score with Henry VIII that think otherwise.
What a pity back in the 1960s that the spineless Labour Party dithered about terminating the 247 (from memory) core of the then IRA and let the filth grow using the finance from the New York Irish scum who considered themselves “Irish American”, as if that meant anything.
If you ever go to the states the people you meet usually say something like “gee, are you English, do you come from London?” When out of politeness you ask about them they invariably say “I am an Italian American” and the comical “Pennsylvania Dutch” when they really mean German extract but don’t want to admit it or something similar using another European country as their origin. I only met one person who said she was American but then spoilt it by saying she could trace her lineage back to Plymouth Rock. Admittedly she was a very nicely spoken lady who was married to a multi-millionaire and I really couldn’t see why she added that until someone else told me that the people who came over on the Mayflower were like royalty. Great people the Americans but some of them are tortured by their own heritage.
50m+ dead as the result of Nazism and she compares it with the troubles in Northern Ireland.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bit like comparing a fart to a thunderstorm!
98) I agree, it’s the people of the nations that are ultimately responsible for their states and ruling elite’s actions, and I will add they are also they are ultimately responsible for their own condition in time too.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But the only way to move forward, learning form it and not repeat the same mistakes is uncovering the truth which is very different from actually rewriting one owns history over the previous generation’s history, that has being done by each new government in Argentina. Argentina is not only being robbed of its money, future and dignity, it’s being robbed of its own history too. History and reality must be accepted such as it is. That is something I champion myself.
If you are going to the extremes of believing in Argentine cowardice only because Peron managed to create a undercover network covering Nazis from Nuremberg’s justice which was only open to Argentine general public 50 years later, what about Italy and its people that embraced fascism and behaved like opportunistic poodles trying to get some spoils of the Mediterranean behind Germany’s onslaught, but despite their advantages and all odds in favor they got hammered in N.Africa and S. E France and the Greeks fought them of like true lions back to Albania. When the allies invaded the Italian peninsula they surrounded like pussies and then formed a new government “declared themselves liberated” and declared war on Germany. So what would you describe them as? Why nobody ever sees this? Why is Argentina worse? Yet always the bad guys in WWII films are the Germans and Japanese, nations that at least were willing to defend their homelands until the very last man.
You see Stevie abject and humiliating racism from you...you are such a turd.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are happy to quote many reasons for britain to be ashamed but humiliate youself in your disgusting racist way for the what it should be proud. You are a turd.
However, we have challenged you before...a single solitary thing the world should thank and Uruguayan or Argentine for...i could list 1000 for Britain...none.
poor Stevie
Please quote me those quotes, Monomagia.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your name makes more sense in Spanish...
And Africa should actually thank Britain. Imagine if Fleming wouldn't have invented the penicillin, imagine what a misery their lives would have been these last centuries...
Nations that at least were willing to defend their nations to the very last man.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh what, you mean like the people Chequeslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway. Luxembourg, Holland, Belgium, France, Jugoslavia, Greece and Russia defended their countries.
Why don't you ask all those people, never minds the Brits! Who they considered to be the baddie of the second world war?
No need, you already know the answer to that question.
Turd Stevie (you are a turd in any language)
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Africa has indeed many things to thank Britain for, hundreds of medicinal and pharmaceutical inventions, billions of £ of AID, dozens of scientific and technological advances.
I am sorry that your racism blinds you to this...it certainly doesn't blind many Africans.
It is entirely subjective as to whether these advances are recompense for many attrocities that were carried out in the name of Britain.
However, as of today, the native Africans all have their countries back...where as you are still ruling over the ethnic South Americans that are left after your genocidal slaughter.
And there is absolutely nothing these people have recieved by way of payback is there hypocritcal turd Stevie....just continuesd oppression and your shit corrupt governments.
Imagine if your Latino forefathers had never entered South America Stevie...would the Amerindians be better off or worse...and youve been there 400 years.
You dont see it Stevie because you are a racist TURD.
We all have ancestors who carried out attrocities, however whilst you like to list Britains failings, you are completely BLIND to its successes...because you are a racist turd.
However, the list of uruguays failings appear to be the genocide of an indigenous people...and than 400 years of nothing...good or bad..google uruguay inventions...its a right laugh.
The list of Argentine failings are also huge, genocide again, as recently as 1880, and the ongoing corruption, cowardice and theft. but yet again, scant coming back the other way...I did find heart by-pass surgery...there you go, thats one...but the list is tiny and pathetic to weigh out the shitdog slime behaviour of 4 centuries.
I find it remarkable how many contributers to this website are willing to use the word 'racism' without ever being specific about WHY whomever they happen to addressing is 'racist'. I wonder how many of these individuals have ever been subjected to racial abuse and actually know what that feels like.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Simply using the term to achieve some sort of specious moral superiority over whomever you're 'debating' debases the term and robs it of it's moral power. It's dishonest, cheap and as someone who DOES know what it's like to be on the receiving end of said abuse, it really pisses me off.
105) your point is ??
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@107
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Casper..piss off you sanctamonious dickhead...hows that for moral superiority
My point is, they are portrayed as baddies in the war movies, because they were the baddies in the war.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0110) You have completely failed in addressing my point that I put forward to MM, and of course he prefers to ignore and deflect on to Stevie the Retard
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@109
Oct 16th, 2013 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh - did you think I was addressing you? And that's the best you can do?
Honestly - a bunch of white South Americans and a bunch of Anglo-Saxon's trading insults as to whom is the most racist - simply to win an argument over what? The burial place of an old Nazi. What's wrong with this picture?
Monomagia
Oct 16th, 2013 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I still haven't said a word about Britain, except that Africa should thank them.
All that racist drama is merely happening in your brain.
Just like the quotes you accuse me of.
Aren't you busy inventing something? Or you just let somebody else invent it for you, as long as s/he is Brit?
Reality check.
Oct 16th, 2013 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RE; 50m+ dead as the result of Nazism and she compares it with the troubles in Northern Ireland.
Bit like comparing a fart to a thunderstorm!
Not really.
First off I didn't compare any numbers. Or mention fatalities. I only mentioned the comparably fascist behaviors of Britains govt in northern Ireland. And they were indeed comparable in some respects to the harassment and pogroms at the beginning of WW2.
Argentina thankfully didn't have that sort of thing still going on in the 90's. So if you're going to point at Argentina be prepared to check yourself first.
I see the trend of the forum has now gone from 'Argentina were with the nazi's' ... followed by a few corrections, a bit of self examination...then some frustration and name calling....to 'yeah well Britain invented stuff'.
Give up this childishness now.
@114 Vestige
Oct 16th, 2013 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I see the trend of the forum has now gone from 'Argentina were with the nazi's' ... followed by a few corrections, a bit of self examination...then some frustration and name calling....to 'yeah well Britain invented stuff'.”
You are welcome, you dont need to thank me. Dont worry about nothing, I'll be around... ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUh4PIAwgzM
@114
Oct 16th, 2013 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are missing a couple of important points about theNorthern Ireland situation, namely that the majority population was being subjected to a campaign of indiscrimate terrorist violence by a minority of the minority of the republican movement, which had declined the option of using the ballot box instead.
To describe the response of the British government as “fascist” is to deprive the term of any meaning. Uk governments responded, perhaps clumsily, but in the way that any democratic Western European government would have responded. You might like to compare this response to that of other governments which found some themselves confronted by violent political movements, such as for example the Russians in Chechynya, or the Argentine military.
Stupidity is the inability to make distinctions, and willful stupidity is the refusal to do so.
116 - this isn't about the north of Ireland itself as a background, Im sure you have your opinion of those times and Im pretty sure I can guess its general slant.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fact remains that there were some indistinguishable commonalities between treatment of the Jewish community at the beginning of WW2 and the near pogrom policy which was found in northern Ireland.
The British govt's B-specials in northern Ireland 70's would have fit right in in 1940's European cities.
As I said previously “they were indeed comparable in *some* respects”
And I'll stand by that. I wont bore you with the list what those comparable traits are again (scan up the page if need be).
I didn't describe the British govt response as “fascist”.
I described it as 'comparable in some respects'. Please distinguish.
And consider the relevant times too, the example mentioned of the Argentine military ended well before the problems in N.Ireland.
Argentina, Germany and nobody else will accept the remains of Nazi officer Erich Priebke
Oct 17th, 2013 - 03:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Pope Francis refused to give him a funeral in a Catholic Church
No one appeared ready to take him UNTIL “the church” of British Bishop Richard Williamson welcome this criminal with open arms.
By the way, this proud Englishman(Richard Williamson ) in 2009 denied that any Jews were killed in gas chambers during the Holocaust.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/15/us-germany-nazi-idUSBRE99E0G920131015
That's right, you do not live in UKistan, your just an expert on it.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 05:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Go home you ingrate!
@117
Oct 17th, 2013 - 08:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0You used the term “pogrom”. You do know what a pogrom is, don't you? Please provide any evidence of the B Specials carrying out anything that might reasonably be regarded as a pogrom, or indeed any other activity that might be regarded as comparable in some meaningful respect to someother fascist force. A Kristallnachf, perhaps, or a night of the long knives, or quite simply air droppig nuns, or making electrical circuits out of students and trade unionists.
Otherwise one might be forced to conclude that in some respects you have succumbed to the twin logical fallacies so often paraded round here, that hyperbola leads to understanding, and that the supposed identification of some British crime somewhere absolves Argentina of all theirs.
Argentina allowed him to escape justice, they opening the door to him and at the same time closed the door to Jewish immigration. A sordid bunch of reprobates. Peronism, shove it where the sun don't shine..
Oct 17th, 2013 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0So now Timmerman is back tracking on Argentina's illustrious past. Best bet, Argentina, take is body and bury it on the local municipal tip.
1949 was 5 years after the war ended, seems they weren't in a hurry to prosecute anybody in Europe back then.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 09:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Also, Argentina has the biggest amount of Jews in SA, so your post makes little sense other for than your lots usual purpose.
Finger diarrhea.
@122 Stevie
Oct 17th, 2013 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse 01949... do expect war crimes and criminals to be duly processed within 49 minutes of the war ending?
So what if Argentina has a lot of Jews. Good for you. This article is about past and present. I'm happy Argentina is in a quandary about this predicament, it reveals unease about your past. That's bound to be a positive effect on your future, so swivel on it.
So Stevie
Oct 17th, 2013 - 09:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0Still spouting shit.
You cannot hold a continent responsible for what individual countries do in that continent. I have highlighted with examples why that is ridiculous.
You can hold a country responsible for what its citizens do. if you do that you must do if for all contrbutions go and bad. It is hard to find many good for uruguay or Argentina amongst some pretty disgusting and genocidal stuff. Britain has loads of bad and loads of good.
On an individual basis, all countries have had some right evil fekkers. Britain has more than its share of wonderful and creative people...struggle to think of a single Uruguayan.
I've told you Stevie, your racism blinds you...as for you “not having said a thing about britain”...I remember all your posts that I've read on various threads...whivch is why there is no doubt about your racism.
Casper thinks rascism is only allowed to be against certain races...but it is the irrational hatrid of any country or race borne out of ignorance...and ignorance is what you have Stevie...in spades.
Stevie the ignorant RACIST turd.
@Marcos Alejandro
Oct 17th, 2013 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0After hours Mohammeds posting rubbish abut how Nazi lover is Argentina and the only one welcoming Erich Priebke are the British.
Ha ha very funny.
I told you guys British are Nazi Lovers and very racist. The only problem they have is when the watch a mirror and their own reflex want to send them to a concentration camp.
Ha ha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdoCMK5ALe8
Monomagia
Oct 17th, 2013 - 10:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Britain, Sweden, Holland...
Come to think about it, the only ones in Europe that haven't caused havoc in the world in recent history, are the old bad “commie” nations, at least they kept their crap to themselves...
But go ahead, blame the Russians for Stalins deeds, especially the ones who died.
Blame Uruguay for the Junta, or do like Chris, blame the Tupas.
My question remains though, why IS it you do your uttermost to defend the real guilty ones?
And btw, tell the Africans that it wasn't the Europeans.
That, and that you come in p...enicillin.
Why not pretend that the genocide wasn't you Stevie and blame the Europeans..LOL...and that the current uruguaians are hero freedom fighters against European colonialists.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are Europeans Stevie, genocidal colonialists...and then not a thing.
Funny Stevie, Penicillin was an example of one of thousands of BRITISH medical advances that has saved millions of African lives, we (despite your inpt claims) have excellent modern relationships with the vast majority of former colonies in Africa and all but one are members of the Commonwealth...it is only you Stevie who still oppresses the peoples who land you stole, but you are so shameful you pretend it was “the Europeans” LOLOLOL
@124 Monkeymagic
Oct 17th, 2013 - 11:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Monkey: I've been called a white cunt by black people and a black cunt by white people, so no, I don't believe racism is confined to any one race. Since I'm very fond of this miraculous aspect of the female anatomy I decided to take it as a compliment. It also confirmed by belief that people with racist beliefs have lousy eyesight since I have yet to encounter a ladypart that was anything other than pink.
In my experience very few people who make racist statements really believe the colour of their skin makes them superior to anyone else's. It's really about power - the awareness that in certain environments a person's ancestry makes them vulnerable to the majority's will. There are some people who are aware of that power - the power to get into people's heads and make them feel things they don't want to feel - and are willing to use it.
Some people don't even realise they're doing this, some people are very skilful at letting you know, with considerable subtlety, how much they enjoy having power over you and there are also some who just love telling you, to your face, how much they're getting off on it.
Stevie isn't anymore racist than you are, in my opinion - whatever you think that's worth. His negative comments about Britain are simply to wind you up and in that dubious achievement he seems to be succeeding.
p.s. To any women who have suffered through this post I assure you no offence is intended with regards to your anatomy. Quite the contrary, bless your hearts.
We oppress the people of the land we stole?
Oct 17th, 2013 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0You mean when we arrived in those ships wearing all your flags?
Because I surely have no memory of having stolen any land. Just as little as you having any memory of stealing any land from the Celtics...
And as for British modern relations with African nations, it's quite clear who is the best negotiator in trading. And should anyone pretend anything else, we'll just Libya them, no?
@129 Stevie
Oct 17th, 2013 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie, did Argentina magically appear on the date of your independence or was it something to do with your spanish forefathers? the latter is the case. And yet the onslaught on the indigenous people continued on until the 20th centure and even now the UN has duly noted the on going failure of Argentina to address the needs of its inhabitants.
Stealing land from the Celts?, well who cares about that, I live in Wales and I'm english and one thing we do know is, we had loads of wars in our past and the last welsh man of royal blood had is head removed around 700 years ago. The point is, that you Stevie, deny your own history.. we brits don't. Now Great Britain is what it is, a group of small countries, each generally regarding each other as 'the old enemy' ... but we get on with it. Celts... well there were all sorts and their descendants are alive and well, stealing land in times gone by, suppressed in times gone by, doing the suppressing in times gone by.
As for Libya... the downing of aircraft with 273 people on board was an act of war. Would argentina sit back if their civilians were blown out of the air by Chile?
130) That is just politically correct version of history the Indians would attack, sack, pillage cattle and take women to be raped and enslaved down South, the Argentine government had intended to peruse a defensive policy before actually sending out the conquest of the desert.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 12:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just like the Americans had a drive towards the West at the time Argentina moved towards the South to annex and conquer lands, that quite frankly if Roca hadn’t of done so, Chile, France or Britain would of eventually taken over Patagonia none the less.
“even now the UN has duly noted the ongoing failure of Argentina to address the needs of its inhabitants.” Duhh........ that doesn’t differentiate between Indians and non-Indian Argentines.
A lot of land theft and abuses are being committed against tribes in remote northern regions with a clear responsibility with the corrupt local authorities. But this happens easily because those people are mostly illiterate, and quite submissive. You can be blonde and blue eyed in Argentina, yet if you are illiterate and don’t have titles of land, you can easily be robbed and abused just as easily as Indians are.
It's interesting to see people laying blame for pandering to the Nazis....
Oct 17th, 2013 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's easy for people to judge in retrospect, but at the time how much did the world really know about the extent of Nazis atrocities...
The world didn't have the full picture until long after the end of the war...years in fact!
There were only news reels during the war and they were all deemed to be full of propaganda...there are even people today that deny the extent of the holocaust despite all the evidence available.
It took years of investigation to even prove who was a Nazis or member of the SS...how many of these war criminals denied their association without proof?
My guess is most of them....“SS...Nein, ich war Wehrmacht!”
Wernher von Braun from the Nazis to the NASA, how cool! Ah those Unitedstatians, always so dirty dirty dirty.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@128:
Oct 17th, 2013 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Have to agree with you, - Knowing Nigeria as I do, I can assure you racism is not about white people calling non-white people names etc.
I understand 'pigin' very well, and I hear rascist sluring all the time.
I can honestly say that if i were to talk the same way around non-white people in the UK - I would be arrested.
@131
Oct 17th, 2013 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie won't allow you the defence of “if we hadn't someone else would have”...sorry. Britain of course could use that defence and offer Malaysia the alternative of being part of French Indochina, or Kenya to be part of the Belgian Congo or perhaps India to have been Dutch or Portuguese....which in the absence of the British Empire, they certainly would have been....I wonder whether given the option of two evils what they would have used?
However, Stevie yet again wishes to bring the current Middle East issues into the discussion. Libya??? LOL...yes I wonder whether the civil war would still be going on and 100,000s more dead on both sides Stevie...or perhaps Gaddafi would've slaughtered his own people or perhaps the rebels would've won anyway just with greater bloodshed...I wonder.
The bloodshed in Libya wasn't Britains fault Stevie...
Casper
Having followed Stevies posts on multiple boards, I can assure you he is a racist. I use the word carefully and with a full understanding of its meaning. he is a thick racist turd. I am sorry that offends you..it is nonetheless true.
120 Hansniemund.
Oct 17th, 2013 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RE; Bombay street.
A majority demographic enter a borough of a minority demographic, begin burning out the houses while the police are suddenly found missing from that one area, with members of a govt sanctioned police force later joining in with the rioters as a minority community's houses were burned out. Id put that down as a pogrom.
But very well. Let us begin.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pogrom
“An *organized*, often officially encouraged massacre or *persecution* of a minority group.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Northern_Ireland_riots
Re: Bombay street, northern Ireland 1969. Scarman report, on British B-Specials.
”The report (scarman report) found that USC officers *had, on occasion, sided with loyalists mobs*.”
(this, an official British report at the time no doubt being...kind...with the wording)
So, Majority demographic centered police force joins in with rioters to burn out houses of minority community. While regular police force (again of single demographic) fail to prevent this.
Theres your *Organised*.
The near entirety of houses in the mostly Catholic street burned out by a Protestant mob supported by a Protestant community based police corps.
Theres your *persecution*.
Catholics being a minority demographic at the time.
So thats 'organized' 'persecution' and 'minority' covered,
Would you like to now withdraw that possibility of a conclusion you put forth ??
Or would you like to debate it with ....The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition . Updated 2009.
So lets not go pointing the finger at Argentina when comparably nazi era ...hi-jinks... were still going on in northern Ireland in 1969.
And beyond.
@135 MM
Oct 17th, 2013 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He hasn’t stopped me yet, but what I would reply to him or you is that Patagonia was an adjacent territory to the Argentine Confederacy. Indians would attack and raid the Argentine heartlands and this problem was becoming a more often and permanent menace towards the mid-late 1800s. Defensive policy like the Fosa de Alsina was expensive and did not solve the problem from its roots.
There is a difference with Britain or any other colonial power that conquered overseas lands not exclusively from a defensive reassurance policy but annexed and invaded nations, empires and territories that where far away beyond their borders that were no real threat to them at home. The only great European colonial power that would look like Argentina or the US and can alledge more or less the same rather than Spain, Britain, France, Portugal, Netherlands, etc would be the Czarist Russia in its drive towards the East
132A-void
Oct 18th, 2013 - 03:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Despite your statements to the contrary, it was quite evident in 1945, as concentration camps were discovered and liberated, that atrocities had occurred.
The Nuremberg trials took place from late 1945 through 1946 and a great deal was known about Nazi war crimes and the perpetrators by that time.
Many Nazis were relocating to Argentina during that period, while the revelations were high profile.
@135 Monkeymagic
Oct 18th, 2013 - 07:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Your racist radar is clearly a lot more developed than mine. Not only is Stevie a racist but a thick turd one! A new species perhaps? Alert the U.N.!
@136
Oct 18th, 2013 - 10:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0You've no doubt unaware of this, but you've just demolished your own original argument. The British state neither sanctioned nor encouraged sectarian violence, it intervened for precisely the opposite reason, to stop it happening.
If you think this is comparable to the role of the state in the pogroms of Tsarist Russia or Nazi atrocities in the East, then you are clearly off your head.
“The British state neither sanctioned nor encouraged sectarian violence, it intervened for precisely the opposite reason, to stop it happening”.
Oct 18th, 2013 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0.... sorry what ?? ....Are you not aware that a police force is a representative of the state ?? What with wearing state uniforms, taking oaths, and being dispatched, managed and supplied by central govt.
Who said I thought it was comparable to Tsarist Russia or anywhere else, I gave you the dictionary definition and the proof (from British sources) that behaviors aligned with this definition. Thats all there is to it.
Stop with the futile insults and just take it like a man.
138) TT
Oct 18th, 2013 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh dear…
“Many Nazis were relocating to Argentina during that period, while the revelations were high profile. ”
Yes but the revelations of the hidden network of Peron aiding the fugitives at the end of the war only came to light to the public well into the 1990s, old General had being dead almost 25 years by then.
How many times I have to explain this?? You are just wanting to portrait modern day Argentina as fascist or Nazi, why else would you insist on this??
@141
Oct 18th, 2013 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're obviously unaware of how policing is managed in the UK. The B Specials were not controlled by central government, but by the devolved government of Northern Ireland. When they were found to be acting in an unacceptably sectarian manner, central government stepped in and shut the shitheads down, thus providing you many years later with an example that refutes your own argument. Take the blinkers off and you might learn to see more clearly.
143 Hans.
Oct 18th, 2013 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re; control of policing.
“ by the devolved government of Northern Ireland.”
“You're obviously unaware of how policing is managed in the UK.”
Would that be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and northern Ireland.
Were they only British when convenient ??
Give up on the pedantry. Focus on the 4,000 Argentines who served with all three British armed services.
This forum makes accusations of nazism against countries which clearly aren't or weren't, based on isolated episodes of wrongful governing.
Im betting we wouldn't say some of these things to the war dead.
Argentine or British.
Thus ..Im out.
@144
Oct 18th, 2013 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Three cheers for the 4000. I bet nobody was more disgusted than them that Peron chose to provide a safe haven for the likes of Eichmann, Mengele, Priebke, Barbie et al.
@137
Oct 18th, 2013 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've answered you on another thread. You answer is bullshit.
Self-defence don't make me laugh. You stole land the size of western Europe out of self defence...lol.
You are descended from Spanish genocidal colonialist...in the same way you use “you” when talking about the British Empire, I can use “you” when talking about the Spainish Emipire. You conquered a continent thousands of miles from home...the only difference between you...and the British Empire in Africa..is that you massacred sufficient numbers of the indigenous to become the majority.
So first off...YOU ARE A EUROPEAN COLONIALIST. Changing your name to Uruguay, Argentina or whatever doesnt change that.
However, even with this ludicrous myth that the Spanish Empire wasn't you, and the genocidal blood is not on your hands, you then continued to steal the remainder of the continent.
However, your indoctrination explains this that it was “self-defence”, (nasty Amerindians didnt appreciate your genocide) if you hadn't some else would, or the best yet...it doesn't count as colonialism if it's an adjacent territory.....fantastic...laugh my arse off....do you even believe it when you write it???
You live in an entire continent stolen from indigenous people who for the most part you massacred. We live on an island where we are the indigenous people. The Falklanders live on islands where there was no indigenous people. Somehow I can't see yours is the moral high ground...LOL
Anyhow...it doesn't matter...because everyone involved is dead, centuries ago. What matters is that Patagonia is part of Argentina because the people who live there today wish it to be so...it matters not that you slaughtered 100,000s to steal it.
Equally the Falklands are not part of Argentina because the people who live there find the idea abhorrent. It matters not that in 1883, 50 people who'd been there 6 weeks and had already raped and murdered were evicted.
@146:
Oct 18th, 2013 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think that puts it rather well MM.
LOL you are the one that full of shit…. And you know it!!
Oct 18th, 2013 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did the Indians systematically attack the Argentine heartlands before the campaign of 1880? Yes.
Did Chilean Indians invade from the West 50 years earlier displacing the local tribes and established themselves in what was south of Argentine Confederation and involved in Argentine politics. Yes
http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/rosas_y_los_indios.htm
http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/rosas_y_los_indios.htm
Once Rosas was dead they went on raiding again. The Indians would sack, pillage take women and cattle down south. Alsina, Avellaneda’s Defence Minister policy was to create a vast trench from Bahia Blanca in the tip of BsAs Province covering all the way to Southern Cordoba. The Zanja de Alsina also had defensive forts and watchtowers along the border. However it was inefficient in stopping the raids.
http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/rosas_y_los_indios.htm
http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/rosas_y_los_indios.htm
Roca after Alsina died in 1877, decided to solve the problem from its roots. Of course there was neither Geneva Convention nor UN at that time, and you can argue that the response was disproportionate but it was a counterstrike none the less. Of course there were abuses against the Indians before 1877, but history is not black and white as you put it. Roca like him or not had a case more justified than for example the Chileans and even more so than the British, French eventually taking over Patagonia.
This is not indoctrination, this is historical FACT.
If there was genocide and whites imposed themselves, how come 56% of Argentines have at least one Indian Ancestor?
http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/rosas_y_los_indios.htm
I’m not blaming Britain, for their descendents the US Americans war over the Sioux, but you still had your boots over ¼ of the globe, but almost no land in Continental Europe where the only historical threats to the British isles ever came from. FACT
@148
Oct 18th, 2013 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So what you appear to be saying....and I will repeat it back to you so you understand how utterly utterly ludicrous it is.
Had Britain attacked one part of Africa, and called it a country...although none of the indigenous people recognised any of it's borders....then all those British attackers wiped out the indigenous in that country...and then decided not to call themselves British anymore...and call themselves New Africans.
Then if any of the remaining indigenous people had the nerve to be a tad upset about the massacre of their countrymen...the new Africans (not British) would have been perfectly within their rights to genocidally slaughter all the remaining folk in Africa...because its a) self defence b) on the same continent c) someone else might have done it
Oh, we wouldn't have “got them all” so we will claim that we have all intermingled and a big happy family. But they have to speak our language and follow our laws.
Ludicrous, I don't know how you can write it with a straight face....utterly utterly preposterous.
148 Cabeza
Oct 18th, 2013 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Did the Indians systematically attack the Argentine heartlands before the campaign of 1880? Yes.
Did Chilean Indians invade from the West 50 years earlier displacing the local tribes and established themselves in what was south of Argentine Confederation and involved in Argentine politics. Yes ”
Cabeza,
When did the territory the Indians were making 'incursions' into become yours?
Who established the borders?
Were the indigenous inhabitants in agreement with that?
Did they recognise the boundaries and the land as yours?
Surely Spain and later UP and then Argentina were invaders as far as they were concerned.
Wouldn't you???
149) You are over simplifying things to much. Forget Africa, go back to the thirteen colonies established during the 1500s, which is the most fair equivalent Britain and France are historically responsible for the genocide of the Iroquois, but they can’t be responsible for what almost 300 years later occurred beyond the Appalachian Mountains, it’s not a question that they changed their names, they emancipated from Britain and recognized their homeland in the New World not in Europe. So it’s up for the US Americans to explain their case, I just did so for the Argentine one.
Oct 18th, 2013 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0150) Actually 300 years ago when the Spanish settled on it. The Pampas where fairly uninhabited, there was very scarce water and there was no horses to move from the vast planes, nor wild cows that the Europeans let loose to become wild herds. Jesus man look at the other questions you are asking me!!!! Why the f_ck do I post links and Argentine history if you are not going to read it??
No..Troy.
Oct 18th, 2013 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain were the invaders it's Spain and Europes fault.
The Argentines weren't Spanish and certainly weren't colonialists, they are a peaceful South American people who were first being dominated by the nasty Spanish and then being attacked by pesky Indians.
They are in no way descendants from the conquistadors and in no way ever stole Indian land nor massacred any of them.
However they have ended up with all the land and the Indians are a tiny minority...this is just luck.
The Falklanders however are terrible colonialist pirates who usurped their land from the indigenous Argentines. The Argentines had arrived on the Falklands centuries before Columbus discovered the Americas and had at least 1 billion civilians on the islands when they were all forced to leave on the Schooner Sarandi. None of the billion had ever murdered or raped anyone at all.
Think that covers my indoctrination...anyone for a song
152MM
Oct 18th, 2013 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thx, that's clearer now.
152) You are being really stupid now, you are trying to deflect to the Falklands and you are not adressing #151
Oct 18th, 2013 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Love it how they try to deflect, from what is is their complicity in protecting from justic the perpertrators of the greatest criminal atrocity in recorded history?
Oct 18th, 2013 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I suppose if I was them I would do the same too, trouble is, once it is out there, it is never going to go away. They will forever be associated with the deeds of the scum they protected.
155) LOL…The FACT is that this was only uncovered to the public in the 90s... Do you know with what Britain “will forever be associated with”...Oh you've got people that hate you remainding you here everyday for that
Oct 18th, 2013 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And Israel however, knew this since the 1960s the Nazis where covered by Peron but supported Argentina in 1982 (undercover of course), and of course Argentina has the largest jewish communities in the world so there is something that doesn’t add up in your assessment.
156 Cabeza
Oct 18th, 2013 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”And Israel however, knew this since the 1960s the Nazis where covered by Peron but supported Argentina in 1982 (undercover of course), and of course Argentina has the largest jewish communities in the world so there is something that doesn’t add up in your assessment.”
I bet Israel is pissed now, ever since Timerman and CFK's government betrayed them over the review of the BA Jewish Cultural Ctr. bombing.
Not seeing any Argentine allegiance or brotherly love for Israelbor the Jews.
@156
Oct 18th, 2013 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, You argentines only heard about it in the 90's?
Well there's a shame, because the rest to the world knew about it in the fifties and they certainly knew about it when Eickmann, or however you spell name, was arrested in Argentina.
As for anything Britian ever did? it pails beyond all historical comparison to the systematic round up and premeditated murder of a religious based community across an an entire continent.
157) I could not agree more, just as Menem betrayed the Peruvians by selling weapons to the Ecuadorians...It’s not like I voted for them, you know?
Oct 18th, 2013 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0158) The WORLD not only Argentina, came to know about the NETWORK Peron had made in the mid 40s in Europe to safeguard Nazi fugitives in Argentina in the 1990s. Of course the secret services of some Western countries knew long ago as well as the Israeli Mossad did. There was only rumors till then and conspiracy theories of course, but no documented evidence that was declassified and left to the public.
The capture of Eichmann living undercover in the suburbs of BA during the 1960s didn’t prove the network itself.
@ 148 CabezaDura
Oct 18th, 2013 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If there was genocide and whites imposed themselves, how come 56% of Argentines have at least one Indian Ancestor?”
How come there are so many mulattos in the USA?
In the majority of cases, one and the same reason:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violación
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violación
Now, ask yourself how many present day Argentines have an indigenous last name, inherited from their father?
160) Of course terrible things happened but Argentine society had the shock of 5-6 million immigrants between 1880 and 1940.With the local population being over a million when immigration started in droves. And a lot of them did bring over their wives and family from Europe, so they didn’t need to cross over straight away with the locals. The war and the Indian campaigns had long ended by then
Oct 19th, 2013 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://webiigg.sociales.uba.ar/pobmigra/archivos/Ramiro_Flores/Crecimiento.pdf
http://webiigg.sociales.uba.ar/pobmigra/archivos/Ramiro_Flores/Crecimiento.pdf
A lot of indians were simply given the hispanic surnames in the civil registries.
Human Rights in Argentina
Oct 19th, 2013 - 02:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0I know about the immigration in Argentina (and El blanqueamiento).
Oct 19th, 2013 - 04:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0The “shock” was not as severe as you paint it. Between 1857 and 1930 Argentina received a net immigration (immigrants - emigrants) of app 3.7 million, thus app 60% of the entire population increase (app 6.2 mio.) in the period was by immigration. About 46% were Italian and 32% Spanish. In 1869 the population was app 1.9 mio., in 1914 app 8.1 mio. By 1914 app 30% of the population was foreign born [1].
- but as you write, the genocide was over in 1880, so what is the relevance?
The same goes for British immigration (your link), 75 000 out of 3 500 000 or 1 (one) in 47 - what is the relevance?
[1] Modern Latin America. Professors Thomas E. Skidmore & Peter H. Smith. Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-512996-2, p.71f
Human Rights in Argentina
Oct 19th, 2013 - 05:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Argentina
Cabeza
Oct 19th, 2013 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are totally confused.
You are suggesting that by 1880 the Argentines where the native people of South America because they'd been there 300 years, and that the Amerindians were wrong to be attacking them and deserved to have the remainder of their homeland stolen.
You (on the other thread) then suggest British colonial atrocities in India, Australia and Africa...but by YOUR MEASURE and YOUR HYPOCRISY these weren't British at all.
All Britain needed to do was call itself “Argent-India” and they would have been perfectly within its rights to have wiped out Gandhi and the billion Indians...as it would have been conquest.
All Britain would have needed to do was call itself “Argent-afrika” and they would have been morally acceptable to have wiped it all of black Africa as those nasty Zulu kept attacking us...some of Africa was sparsely populated after all.
The absolute cheek of Ho Chi Minh attacking the French in Vietnam, didn't he know they'd been there for centuries,,,they should have wiped him out and carried on in to Malaysia and Thailand.
However I quote YOUR foreign Minister at the UN this year
“how long after you have stolen a territory does it become yours”
“the Falklands is a blatant case of 19th century colonialism”
Hypocritical fucker isn't he.
“Now, ask yourself how many present day Argentines have an indigenous last name, inherited from their father?”
Oct 19th, 2013 - 08:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0You should ask yourself why it is you are desperate to show your lack of knowledge.
At least present the stupidity as a question, that way you avoid branding yourself...
Monkeymagic
Lets accept your arguement, we are all responsable of ibmnvading and replacing the original population, and the current one are merely tourists not wanting to go home.
I ask you, where is home for us? Where is home for you after leaving the Land of the Celts?
Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 08:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your home is Uruguay. I don't want you to leave. I want the people of Uruguay to govern themselves as they please.
My home is the UK, I am also not going to leave.
Islander1, Isolde etc....their home is the Falklands. They have the right to govern themselves, defend themselves, and run their homeland as they please.
You didn't like it when I applied YOUR GOVERNMENTS rules to you did you Stevie....
I didn't see such a vociferous defence of self-determination and the right to a homeland after centuries when Malvinero, Dany Berger, etc want to rob the Falklanders of their Stevie.
You finally see the crass hypocrisy of YOUR GOVERNMENT...perhaps you should vote for a different one.
Ah, your issue is the Falklands, hence all this historical excusing...
Oct 19th, 2013 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0You should've saved ink and got straight to the point.
Of course the Islanders are home.
But the Brits aren't... They are imposing their presence with their war mongering...
Stevie, are you wearing your new straitjacket?
Oct 19th, 2013 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Falkland Islanders are (mostly) also British, same as the people living in e.g. Salta, Santa Fe and Rawson are (mostly) also Argentines.
Well, Argentines home is Argentina. British home is Britain.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 11:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ordinary people are and should be free to travel, settle and live within all borders, but nationalistic military with nationalistic interests are not welcome.
Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is not the position of your government. They believe the islanders are in Argentina.
Britain isn't warmongering in the south Atlantic, the only aggressors are Argenitna, the only deaths because of Argentina, the only threats from Argentina.
Britain has a defence force in the Falklands at the request of the islanders because of Argentina. When we removed the defence Argentina attacked.
Of course you know all this...you are just being a turd.
I assume you will be lobbying your government to drop their support for Las Malvinas son Argentina....I guess not..
Give independency to the Islanders and remove the British forces, from our point of view, you lot are the only ones to flash weapons.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Picture you try to paint of British forces being there because they are good guys is your indoctrination. Your problem.
We don't have to come up with excuses as to why we don't want guns aimed at our continent.
You can blame Argentina all you want, but at the end of the day, you are the warmongering ones.
Until then, I'll support even the Bolivian claim...
St. John If there had being genocide here that wouldn’t explain 56% of argentines having at least one Indian ancestor. Using very neat little references in itself doesn’t make you have a point That can’t be only answered by rape, because the Hardy-Weinberg principle would have buffered the genetical proportions of the population back to its original ones in a couple of generations like it did in places like Peru, Bolivia and Mexico where the Indian heritage survived the most brutal Spanish onslaught. And these countries had been home to sophisticated, populous and established empires like the Incas and Aztecs, but were massacred brutally by the Spaniards. The difference is clearly in the immigration that followed into Argenitina and Uruguay while, Peru, Bolivia and Mexico hadn’t any European immigration in significant proportions.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I posted that link but forgot to mention and exemplify how RICH and disproportionate it is for the Brits to be up in arms about the Desert Campaign pointing fingers at Argentina because they settled in Patagonia shortly after the conquest yet this was going on at the height of the height of the Victorian Age when Britain controlled brutally a ¼ of the globe. None of these nations and countries under British yoke represented ever a threat to the British Isles
Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are a loon. A complete fucking fruitcake.
The islanders don't want independence.
The British military are present on the request of the islanders.
No guns are pointed at “your continent”, you made it up.
The islanders have never invaded Argentina, and have never shown any aggression towards “your continent”
Our military is there for their defence.
You can lie, and repeat your lies about British warmongering, it is shit...it makes you look a cunt.
Tell me Stevie..in 1982...who invaded who?
Who pointed guns at what civilian population?
Who's defence minister said they'd do it again?
No point discussing it further with you...you a complete imbecile.
Sure Monkey, USA never invaded any South American nation either.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 01:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They didn't have to, it was enough with their presence.
Same thing with the Brits.
Divide and conquer, remember?
Well, we have no interest in that day when the guilty ones aren't the Jews, the Russians or the Muslims, but the “Sudacas”.
Tell me, Monkeymagic, when was last time Argentina invaded anyone, as a nation, not under the flag of the UN? When was the last time Britain did not?
1982 Stevie ?..which is entirely the point
Oct 19th, 2013 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is that some 31 years ago?
Oct 19th, 2013 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Does this mean Iraq and Afghanistan have the right to take Isle of Man and point guns at you, just in case? What's the difference in 300 years?
Afghanistan..i thought you said without UN resolutions Stevie?
Oct 19th, 2013 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Iraq...now let's see.
Do they have the right to take the Isle of Man...so you are now suggesting that after the Falklands conflict we took some of Argentina as reprisal...really Stevie? So no they don't have the right to take the Isle of Man Stevie...how silly.
The current Iraqi government has no wish to point guns at the US or Britian, who are no threat to them at all. However, should a Saddam Hussein supporting government return to Iraq, and wish to start gasses Kurds, and invading Kuwait...yes, I would think it wholly sensible that he considered how he was going to defend himself.
Afghanistan was/is a NATO intervention, not a UN one.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course the current Iraqi government has no such wishes, you lot put the there!
But the people seems to disagree, just have a look at what happens in the streets of England. Just look at what happens in the streets of Iraq.
And stop fooling yourself with the excuse of removing Saddam because of the gas attacks. It was a repugnant action, but it's even ore repugnant that you use that as an excuse for stealing natural resources some 20 years after it actually happened. The invasion of Kuwait was not even an issue at the time, that problem was solved after the first, UN, intervention.
So yes, these nations, and many more, have according to your logic and standards, all the right in their lives to aim their guns at your country, just in case. For this didn't happen 31 years ago, but it happens every day.
Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are yet again completely wrong.
The Iraqi government was “put there” by the Iraqi people.
I'll give you a better parallel. Germany invaded the Uk in 1940. We don't point guns at them any more.
The reason why we don't point guns at them is that they no longer want to invade the Sudetandland, no longer covert Poland, are no longer gassing Jews, and a fully repentant of their actions.
Argentina on the other hand are not repentant at all. However, despite your lunacy, we don't point guns at them at all. We don't point guns at your continent at all. We maintain a defence appropriate to the risk or Argentina repeating their invasion,
As far as “the people disagreeing”....we've had this debate before. Clearly some people disagree, but as Iraq is a democracy now, the majority prevails...which is nice.
As far as stealing their resources....you are funny and thick Stevie. British oil companies operate all over the world...based on licences granted by democratically elected governments...including Uruguay and Argentina LOL...
You are a fruit loop Stevie, a crazy racist loony fruit loop.
That's some VERY convenient, and I mean Bloody hell! Some great contracts you got out of the democratically elected government. Elected while you lot where busy killing the opposition...
Oct 19th, 2013 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The invasion of Iraq was based on lies. When lies are your arguments, it's because you are up to no good. And I mean wow! Some contracts you got out of it. Northern Iraq is being emptied for oil. The Kurds now have new neighbours. Oil Companies. But that's not all, lucrative oil contracts are not the only profit of bombing Sovereign nations. These has to be rebuilt, and those contratcs are just as lucrative. In this case it's not the cheap aspect that makes the eyebrow raise, it's quite the opposite...
I'd say.... offer them penicillin.
Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I thought we were talking about Argentina accepting the Nazi they had previously embraced as a prominent citizen in his new home in SA.
Why have we strayed so far when this is about a war criminal and the two contrary positions that Argentina has taken towards Nazis?
I suppose dead Nazis have no money to enter the country.
:-)
You folk just love to talk about past atrocities, regardless the fact that your nation dominated that branch in fierce competition of others.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But you are totallt oblivious to the fact that the atrocities never stopped from your side, just the targets.
Do I blame Britain? Not at all.
But I do blame the economical, political and overall ideological system that forms our societies.
Still off-topic, Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I imagine you've given up.
Troy
Oct 19th, 2013 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hear some old Brit holocaust denier accepted the body.
A quite hilarious way to go on topic, wouldn't you agree.
Does that make all Brits nazi-lovers, or does Monkeymagics standards not apply to Brits?
Or is he just way out there, well accompanied by conq and yanqui?
Stevie
Oct 19th, 2013 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 01882 - I am concerned by the absence of war reparations.
This is standard practice for the losers to pay up big time.
I think the Brits should put their claim in before Argentina goes tits-up.
Well, Geoff
Oct 19th, 2013 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to my history books, the UK owes Argentina money then...
@ 173 CabezaDura
Oct 19th, 2013 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Problem is, that two of the most important assumptions underlying the Hardy–Weinberg equilibrium are:
1. mating is random.
2. there is no migration.
Mating would only be random, if indigenous men mated with immigrated women app as often as immigrated men mated with indigenous women. If there hadn't been any indigenous men at all, the mtDNA would still show app 55% indigenous ancestors.
Migration inherently include nonrandom mating, in most cases rendering the Hardy–Weinberg proportions invalid.
The question to ask is: What is the proportion of indigenous Y-chromosomes to immigrant Y-chromosomes?
The situation in e.g. Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia, were very different, as these countries had established states and/or large indigenous populations and they were not pestered with people like Avellaneda, Julio Argentino Roca, Sarmiento, etc., hellbent on 'El blanqueamiento', the extermination of inferior races.
Article 2 of the United Nations 'Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide' [1] defines:
”genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
whic, according to Argentine newspapers, reports and statement from Argentine politicians, was exactly what was the goal of 'Conquista del Desierto'.
[1] Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. http://web.archive.org/web/20080502140534/http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm
Isn't that what the Brits did in North America and Austalia?
Oct 19th, 2013 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me get the pies...
Oh yes, they did.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They have, however, later regretted and apologized for their ancesters' atrocities. A similar reaction can be seen among a few Argentines, who demand statues of Julio Argentino Roca (El Asesino) to be removed and streets with his name be renamed. BTW: My house, when I lived in Mendoza, was in J. A. Roca.
Oh... Sorry Charruas, forgive us for Salsipuedes.
Oct 19th, 2013 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There you go.
Now what?
You are very, very young, aren't you Stevie?
Oct 19th, 2013 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You mean if I've heard your excuses before?
Oct 19th, 2013 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, I have.
Tell me, when are you going to apologize for Afghanistan? Iraq?
In 300 years?
Or later?
188) StJohn don’t you realize you have lost this whole argument in the moment you started it?
Oct 20th, 2013 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Después el equipo buscó en un área determinada de las mitocondrias, también en una región que se mantiene inalterable y que se identifica como HVR I. El resultado fue el esperado: la mayoría de la muestra tenía ascendente materno no amerindio. Es decir, había mayoritariamente madres europeas (53,3%).
http://old.clarin.com/diario/2005/01/16/sociedad/s-03415.htm
Naff said, so the majority of crossings was by European mothers with Indian fathers and not the opposite as you state…
Now don’t forget the Indians would take women to be raped in the tolderias
But besides your whole argument (God knows what your argument is) just doesn’t hold water
Let’s be very generous towards your theory, as you claim that half of Argentina’s great, great grandmothers have being raped, let’s suppose this is true, so this means you had a population that received a “migration” (genetically speaking of course), half the population of locals were killed (the males) and the remaining females whatever their number were raped. So the next generation would have been 100% hybrid Euro-Amerindian (mestizos) that would have broken the Hardy Weinberg equilibrium of the first population, but the contradiction is that genocide did not occur as a general concept as the women were not entirely exterminated (this is what you are already accepting when you explain (wrongly) that 56% of Argentines have Indian ancestry by rape). We are talking about 30.000 people in the more generous scenario possible in Patagonia. You had millions of Europeans arriving from 1880 onwards to a country that was already hybrid (?) !!! I’m sorry but your whole argument is bonkers
- and it has all stopped in Argentina, hasn't it?
Oct 20th, 2013 - 01:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0UN Rapporteur on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Asks Argentina to Stop Evicting Indigenous Peoples
http://indigenousnews.org/2012/09/21/un-rapporteur-on-the-rights-of-indigenous-peoples-asks-argentina-to-stop-evicting-indigenous-peoples/
195) Look many tribes in the Northern provinces like Formosa, Salta the local governments provincial and local are very corrupt and will sell away land to any rich landowners that want to knock over the forests and plant soybean. What also occurs is that governor Gildo Insfran (FPV) abuses the Indians by sending his thugs to the communities on election day to take their passports (DNI) and have his own people vote for him on the same day. Also the local municipalities discipline the tribes by retaining the monthly welfare that belongs to the Indians. However most of these people are still illiterate and have never made their ownership titles of the lands. So they don’t have land titles, however there is no deliberate plan from the Argentine National State to land theft the amerindian natives. I’m blonde and blue eyes that doesn’t make any difference, last year my neighbor tried to fence over my property to his and he would of gotten away with it if I didn’t have the titles and I wasnt able to read and write.
Oct 20th, 2013 - 02:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think what we should do is send to jail all these feudal governors of these provinces, have a campaing to give ownership titles to the Indians, educate them and have the Ley de Bosques (26.331) respected and applied as it should be.
I disagree with promoting ever more politically correct UN inspired bonker laws to benefit Indians as such; we should all be equal to the law. I don’t want to adopt the bad aspects of neo fascist, politically correct anti-white Europe.
You can keep that, thank you very much.
@ 194 CabezaDura
Oct 20th, 2013 - 02:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0“StJohn don’t you realize you have lost this whole argument in the moment you started it?”
Grow up!
CD:”Es decir, había mayoritariamente madres europeas (53,3%).“
”thus app 60% of the entire population increase in the period was by immigration“
Do you think the european women were sterile?
CD:”so the majority of crossings was by European mothers with Indian fathers and not the opposite as you state… “
Complete bosh. This is elementary genetics.
Woman gets 3 daughters. Each daughter gets 3 daughters = 9, who gets 3 daughters = 27, who gets 3 daughters = 81, who gets 3 daughters = 273. You'll find mtDNA in all of the 273 in the last generation.
CD:”Let’s be very generous towards your theory,“
Cheap trick.
It is not my theory, I follow a number of Argentine historians and social scientists, who are not afraid to do away with the myth.
”Las memorias del comandante Prado dicen claramente que el ataque a las tolderías es para caerles encima a las mujeres y niños que quedaron cuando los hombres no estaban. Estaba planificado así para llevarse el botín, sobre todo el ganado, y las familias porque ésa era la operación que iba a llevar a los indios a rendirse.“
”The memoirs of commandant Prado clearly say that the purpose of the attacks on the camps is to get on the women and children left behind when the men were away. It was planned to get the spoils, especially cattle, and families because that was the operation that was to take the Indians to surrender.“
”Es genocidio cuando se puede establecer la intencionalidad de destruir a un pueblo. Otra característica es impedir la reproducción de ese grupo y también el robo de niños, cuando son secuestrados y entregados a familias de grupos dominantes, y se les reemplaza los nombres, porque así se atenta contra la continuidad de ese pueblo porque se le roba la memoria.”
The interesting question is, as previously written: what is the proportion of indigenous Y-chromosomes to immigrant Y-chromosomes?
Surely more equal than in USA or Australia...
Oct 20th, 2013 - 02:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, I forgot, you lot said sorry...
Stevie, you are, like Hardhead, adressing the wrong lot.
Oct 20th, 2013 - 02:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 196 CabezaDura
Sure, somebody else did it.
El Blanqueamiento.
Constitución de la Nación Argentina (1853)
Artículo 25: El Gobierno federal fomentará la inmigración europea; y no podrá restringir, limitar ni gravar con impuesto alguno la entrada en el territorio argentino de los extranjeros que traigan por objeto labrar la tierra, mejorar las industrias, e introducir y enseñar las ciencias y las artes.
“inmigración europea” any suggestions to what that means?
- and it is still in the Argentine constitution:
Constitución Nacional de la Nación Argentina (1994)
Art. 25.- El Gobierno federal fomentará la inmigración europea; y no podrá restringir, limitar ni gravar con impuesto alguno la entrada en el territorio argentino de los extranjeros que traigan por objeto labrar la tierra, mejorar las industrias, e introducir y enseñar las ciencias y las artes.
Section 25.- The Federal Government shall foster European immigration; and may not restrict, limit or burden with any tax whatsoever, the entry into the Argentine territory of foreigners who arrive for the purpose of tilling the soil, improving industries, and introducing and teaching arts and sciences.
Hahaha St. John!
Oct 20th, 2013 - 02:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0What can I say... So are you!
;)
197) LOL!! We have a name for what you are doing now. It’s called Chamuyo….
Oct 20th, 2013 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0What that means is that the remaining 46,7% of mDNA of the population is Indian! But you have to add to that the data of Y chromosome of the males which would more or less conclude with the 10% GAP of the 46,7% and 56%. Its says clearly most of the mothers are European St John
And what about the malones then?? Lets see...
“El 5 de junio de 1870, más de 8.000 indios, al mando de los caciques Namuncurá -por el Sur- y Catriel -por el Oeste-, atacaron en malón los establecimientos rurales de nuestra región.
Se llevaron como cautivos 20 mujeres y niños, mataron a 36 soldados, 12 civiles y un oficial. Robaron 5.000 vacunos, 4.900 yeguarizos y 10.000 lanares.“
The 5 of June of 1870, more than 8000 indians, under the leadership of chieftain Namuncurá- from the South- and Catriel –from the West- attacked in the malon the rural settlements of our region.”
They taked captive 20 women and children, killed 36 soldiers, 12 civilians and one officer. Robbed 5000 cattle heads, 4900 mares and 10.000 sheep
”Cafulcurá, Catriel y Cachul arrasan la localidad bonaerense de Azul el 13 de febrero de 1855 con 2.000 guerreros, muriendo 300 personas, llevándose cautivas a 150 familias y 60.000 cabezas de ganado.”
Calfucura, Catriel and Cachul rampage the Buenos aires province locality of Azul the 13 of February of 1855 whith 2000 warriors, killing 300 people, taking captive 150 families and 60.000 heads of cattle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Mauricio_rugendas_-_el_malon.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Mauricio_rugendas_-_el_malon.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Mauricio_rugendas_-_el_malon.jpg
Are you completely dense?
Oct 20th, 2013 - 04:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0“captive 20 women and children” + “150 families”
Even if the children were girls, how does that make up 53.3%
“Its says clearly most of the mothers are European”
Big surprise, when 60% (sixty percent) of the population descend from immigrants, almost all of them from Europe.
What about the malones?
The indigenous warriers attacked the scundrels who had stolen their land - have you completely and conveniently forgotten the link, you yourself provided, to the expansion of the Buenos Aires province?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Mapa_ARGENTINA_frontera.png
How did this expansion take place, if not into indigenous land?
Malones were the Amerindians' answer and revenge.
If you had read your own link to “El ultimo Malón”, you would have known that it was on 16 de marzo de 1876, two years before Roca's murderous campaign.
BTW: I have for years had an excellent copy of Mauricio Rugendas “El Malón” on the wall in my living room. An old version of Blitzkrieg.
202) OHHH F_CKING JESUS….!!! THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT MALONES YOU C_NT!!! WHY DO I BOTHER TO SEARCH, POST AND TRANSLATE THE LINKS IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO READ THEM!!!!!!!???????
Oct 20th, 2013 - 04:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why don’t you just accept got the genetical argument ALL WRONG. You are saying nothing of substance now in that regard.
Why are you being dishonest coming back with this map of BA business??? I told you these where really buffer zone lands that were settled little by little progressively by farmers and gauchos, the Indians were nomadic and did not live side by side with a wall inbetween like the Palestinians and Israelis do. You failed to address this previously so now you have dusted it out again because you have nothing left to use…LOL !
Malones where not the answer to anything StJohn, they were just meant to pillage, sack and rob from the settlers, take their women and children and kill the gauchos and soldiers, not to take back lands from the Argentine confederacy that by then they were more native to
CabezaDura are you in an asylum somewhere?
Oct 20th, 2013 - 05:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0What you write does not make sense.
You told me your personal version of the expnsion of Buenos Aires. I go with Argentine historians and social sciences scholars, who have a very different version, based on research in Arhentina's national archives.
How do you explain the expansion without an expansion into indigenous land?
The are not Indians (a shocking racist designation), Indians live in India. These people are indigenous or aborigin to South America, or Amerindians.
Legally, the indigenous peoples have specific constitutional rights at federal level and also in a number of provincial states.
In the south of the country, in Río Negro Province, popular dissent forced the previous government to pass a law banning open-cast mining but, in January 2012, the new governor, from the same political party as the president, overturned the decision and subsequently authorised such mining.
There are more than 1,000 exploration permits in Chubut Province, despite Provincial Law 5001 which bans open-cast mining and the use of
cyanide. A symbolic case in this regard is the “Proyecto Navidad”. ... The company entered the indigenous territory and desecrated a 12,00-year-old aboriginal cemetery located right in the very heart of the future mining zone.
There is a constant failure to respect the National Constitution during 2011, along with the international treaties ... signed by Argentina.
Emergency Law 26160 on Indigenous Community Ownership, ... suspends evictions from the ancestral territories ... but, in practice, it has been ignored as dozens of communities have been evicted ... due to the provincial governments’ opposition and the national government’s apathy.
Throughout the country, calls for rights to be respected are answered with court cases and repressive action.
No reason to quote more from this sorry document, read it thoroughly.
http://www.iwgia.org/regions/latin-america/argentina/843-update-2011-argentina
204) My family came over to Argentina and bought land in former frontier land with the Indians, there was no settlement anywhere near some years after this war.
Oct 20th, 2013 - 06:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don’t know who are these people you are talking about historians and social scientists. I tell you the Ranqueles were excellent riders and launched attacks form far away in Indian controlled territory. When you are nomadic you don’t establish yourself permanently in one place, much less right next door to your enemy, you move from one place to the other.
Fine, but that is neither racism nor apartheid nor genocide or whatever you may call it, it’s just corruption and its endemic here. Indians are not the only ones to suffer it.
Ohh btw spare me the “Indians from India” politically correct rubbish
All this exchange of posts about genocide, war criminals, etc. remind me that international terrorist having an interview with a journalist...
Oct 20th, 2013 - 07:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0The terrorist was so excited while telling the journalist about all the atrocities he have done to innocent people just for money from killing, raping, bombing civilians, kidnapping children to sale later in the black market among worst things.
All was find during the interview until the journalist nearly to go sick for what he was hearing try to change the subject and ask to the brutal killer terrorist....
Do you know or have any relation with some world leaders Like Tony Blair or George Bush?...
The Terrorist suddenly start to get sick close to vomiting and pallid and extremely furious with the journalist while his eyes were full injected of blood reply.
You re a really sick person and twisted I have nothing to do with them I never mess up with criminals, please do not compromised me.
Interview is over...
Oh Dany,
Oct 20th, 2013 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So clever, so full of irony you are.
Yawn. Pedantic and hackneyed sermon. Thanks.
Now that your Nazis have all died off, do you have room for Iranians and Syrian 'government forces ' personnel with money?
@ 203 CabezaDura
Oct 20th, 2013 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Malones where not the answer to anything StJohn, they were just meant to pillage, sack and rob from the settlers, take their women and children and kill the gauchos and soldiers ...”
- and precisely how do you know that?
They were hard pressed because their living conditions were reduced every day by immigrant settlers - and that is precisely what the maps of the expansion of Buenos Aires and Santa Fe show us.
“the Indians were nomadic”
Precisely, and like elsewhere in the world, the Argentine farmers decided they had the right to steal land from nomades, little by little leaving the nomades nowhere to wander and live.
BTW: As part of the Argentina mythomania, I find it hilarious that some small p?sspot village dictator in a country with slightly more than half a million inhabitants was called “El Director Supremo de las provincias Unidas de Sud América” (The Supreme Director of the United Provinces of South America) - they seem to have forgotten “Internaciónal” in the title :-D.
208) So Calfucura, Catriel et. al launched attacks from deep within Indian country in what nowadays are the Provinces of Neuquén and La Pampa because some farmer had fenced some land some 100 km away from Buenos Aires????
Oct 20th, 2013 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0209cabeza
Oct 21st, 2013 - 12:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Looking at it from the point of view of the original inhabitants:
Do you really think the nomadic Amerindians really distinguished between the white dispossessing them and displacing them from their territory in one area from other white men doing the same thing?
Do you find it “unfair” that they chose to fight back in other places than where YOU felt it was relevant?
Troy, Cabezadura is unable to look at any viewpoint than his own
Oct 21st, 2013 - 02:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0- this piece of white trash who first writes e.g. “Ohhh, you daft idiot”, “retarded and dishonest behavior” and “YOU C_NT!!!”
and when the person who is called this, politely draws his attention to the fact that this shows he has run out of rational arguments, claims that the subject of this slander and foul language “victimizes himself”.
211
Oct 21st, 2013 - 03:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0St John,
Snr Carbeza seems particularly angry for some reason. He's frustrated and seems to be at pains to justify the past actions of his country, but he hates it that we don't accept his excuses.
He probably is or was a loyal supporter of CFK and now he sees his country's economy falling inta a black hole and feels betrayed.
Nobody else to blame but himself - he doesn't want to listen to rational arguments
StJohn you ware OWNED everywhere and in every topic. Naff said.
Oct 21st, 2013 - 03:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Troy Tempest
Oct 21st, 2013 - 06:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why? are you planning to ask for asylum in Argentina?
Dany,
Oct 21st, 2013 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I sometimes think that Argentina IS an asylum - and you're an inmate.
1. You have a tract of land
Oct 21st, 2013 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 02. You have a car
1. As a nomad you only use it sporadicly
2. You only use your car an hour or so per day
1. Somebody else says I can use the land more intensively, and take it
2. Somebody else says I can use the car many more hours per day, and take it
1. When the owner of the land wants to use it again, the thief declares “it is mine”
2. When the owner of the car wants to use it again, the thief declares “it is mine”
1. If you defend your right to the land, you and your family is slaughtered.
216
Oct 22nd, 2013 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0but you are a heathen, and don't understand how land is supposed to be used 'properly'.
it's obvious for anyone to see, you are not competent to own it.
Far better that 'civilised' people use it properly, as God intended.
Any thinking man would agree that, it's wasted in the hands of savages.
CD: “So Calfucura, Catriel et. al launched attacks from deep within Indian country in what nowadays are the Provinces of Neuquén and La Pampa because some farmer had fenced some land some 100 km away from Buenos Aires????!”
Oct 22nd, 2013 - 07:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0One must ask: So Calfucura, Catriel et. al launched attacks from deep within Indian country in what nowadays are the Provinces of Neuquén, Chubut and La Pampa - is that imposible?
The Mapuches in Chile reacted similarly on attacks from both Incas and Spaniards/Chilenos.
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