MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Majority of Chileans, 83% support nationalizing copper, but it's not an issue of the presidential campaign
In an annual poll released last month, 83% of Chileans voted positively when asked “Are you in favor or against the proposal to nationalize copper?” — registering overwhelming support for a prospective reform that, while radical, remains relatively low on the list of campaign hot topics the November 17 presidential election. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules83% of Chileans don't understand that copper is already nationalized.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All copper under the ground belongs to the nation.
To nationalize the private mines is a different issue and the reason it is not on the agenda of either front runner is because neither of them would be so stupid as to shoot the goose that lays the golden egg.
The Chileans, are learning what we already know,
Nov 11th, 2013 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The more the people want something,
The more the government opposes it..
.
Good governance doesn't give the people what they want, but what they need!
Nov 11th, 2013 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is the major difference between Chile and its neighbour.
Anglolatino
Nov 11th, 2013 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What a convenient Big Brother mentality you got there...
Chilean copper revenues to the Chilean people. Full stop.
Try to stop it...
;)
Anglotino
Nov 11th, 2013 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Good governance doesn't give the people what they want, but what they need!”
Quite correct.
In 2007 when copper prices were rocketing, everyone wanted the government to increase spending. Our then minister for the economy, said, no way we must build up a counter-cyclical buffer, you never know when there will be a recession. You won't find many today who will fault him.
Stevie,
Copper revenues do go to the Chilean people.
CODELCO, the world's largest copper producer is state owned.
The private mines invest $10s of billions per year in Chile, pay royalties and the highest wages in the country.
You lot think you know what people needs, totally disregarding what they want...
Nov 11th, 2013 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's quite repugnant indeed...
And the private mines collects a lot more in revenue than they ever invest, for logical reasons.
Chile has the know-how already, so there are no reasons as to why that difference shouldn't go to Chileno pockets as well.
Stevie,
Nov 11th, 2013 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting then that both leading candidates share this “repugnant” view. Or could it be that they both understand the facts.
The private sector contributes more to the fiscal coffers than CODELCO and it does so with smaller reserves under its management.
Aah Stevie the contrarian.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So disempowered and unsurprisingly unable to find anywhere that lives up to your ideals.
Nah, Condorito.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You just use the old tactic “if you can't beat them, join them”
Which is totally ok, it was never about you anyway...
;)
Stevie,
Nov 11th, 2013 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You just use the old tactic “if you can't beat them, join them””
I this context that would mean CODELCO should be privatized.
Not many would endorse that.
Yes let's compare that socialist paradise Venezuela where the state keeps all the royalties and private enterprise is dissuaded and even removed from the equation when the government wants it.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hmmmm inflation at 54% and scarcity index at 22%.
Police at the airports checking people aren't smuggling US dollars.
A brain drain of industry, capital and skills to Colombia and the US.
A murder rate that exceeds 50 people PER DAY.
So glad the Venezuelan people are getting what they WANT.
We are all Chavez. PMSL
Thankfully the Chileans are getting what they NEED. And even when the government changes it will keep pursuing the same economic path. And that is the icing on the cake that even the left in Chile can see through the crap that is pumped out by Venezuela and Argentina and spoon fed to their deluded citizens.
Anglolatino
Nov 11th, 2013 - 11:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Venezuela are getting what is them allowed.
Chile in in the same boat.
But we are merely starting... In 10 years we achieved more than the “needers” in almost 200.
You think the people will give that up?
Who are you calling deluded?
;)
@11 The last time the elections stunk of fraud to me, I don’t think we can say for sure any longer that the government they have is what the people really want.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's Capriles who should be President of Venezuela
And you lot should be right.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And SA should keep offering raw materials cheap.
And so on...
But you know what?
It's over.
Nunca más.
The poll is not surprising since the population at large do not understand economics very well. The people who understand the subject on the other hand are against nationalizing the private operators. The private sector are very efficient and keep Codelco on it's toes. This is a lesson that Venezuela could well learn. Mexico has decided to go this way and soon will partially open up their oil industry to the private sector. For us this system of private run mines in competition with state owned ones has produced fabulous results, for example Antofagasta a booming city in the north has a per capita GDP of US$37,000. I doubt many other places in Latin America have achieved these figures.
Nov 11th, 2013 - 11:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Saludos y vota 7.
http://youtu.be/ePQkOnP8QvI
http://youtu.be/ePQkOnP8QvI
http://youtu.be/ePQkOnP8QvI
So, the population doesn't understand economics, like you obviously do, but not only that. They also have to be told what they need, because what they want is... not available..
Nov 11th, 2013 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like education.
Like revenues from natural resources.
That's not all though, the population also wants privatization, disregarding the fact the cobber industry, according to some light bulb, already belongs to the state.
The private state...
Te cayó mal el once???
I will have to modify my post @1
Nov 12th, 2013 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0“83% of Chileans don't understand that copper is already nationalized.
All copper under the ground belongs to the nation.”
to...
“83% of Chileans AND STEVIE don't understand that copper is already nationalized. All copper under the ground belongs to the nation.”
Who was it that said trying to explain something to Stevie was like trying to light up the Grand Canyon with a flashlight.
Agreed Condorito
Nov 12th, 2013 - 01:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thankfully Chile is following Australia more than it is following Argentina. We are also a small country surrounded by larger ones. And our natural resources bring us wealth through private enterprise.
Tweaking the Chilean model will not mean the end of the model. Some tweaks will work well and improve things and some tweaks will not work well. As long as there is not a headlong dive into the abyss like in Venezuela there won't be any return to the poverty of the past.
I'm not sure which country Stevie thinks has done more in the past 10 than in the past 200. This fixation on quickly fixing problems instead of slowing working through them is part of what keeps many Latin American countries from prospering. It takes time as Chile has shown. Chile is not a product of the last 10 years but the last 30 years. Just like Australia's current prosperity has been built over the last 30 years too.
10 years is a revolution.
30 years is evolution.
Sure Condorito
Nov 12th, 2013 - 08:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0The world is wrong, and you are right...
@19 Stevie
Nov 12th, 2013 - 08:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0Stevie, you could do a lot worse than pay attention to what the Chilean posters say. Apart from the fact that they actually live there, everything they say is completely reasonable and backed up with actual, checkable figures.
Of course, I'm assuming you are actually interested in the truth...
@19 Stevie
Nov 12th, 2013 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, not the world, just a large percentage of the public and you.
Considering that it was one of your heros that finalised the process of nationalising copper (all minerals really) I am surprised that you are so ignorant of this fact.
Ley N° 17.450 signed off by Allende making all mineral reserves present and future property of the state. That is still the case today.
The state, as owner of the reserves, has the right to concession the extraction. This is the intelligent way to do it. As a tax payer, I don't want the government spending billions of $ on mining investments, I want them spending on infrastructure, hospitals, schools, police, etc.
Barrick has spent $8 billion at Pascua-Lama (from my window I can see where much of it has been spent!) and not recovered an ounce. It would be insane for the government to spend those sums. Bachelet, leader of the Socialist Party (like Allende was) knows this, hence will not consider changing the current system which works so well.
I do like the Chilean posters, always reasoned & well though out arguments :)
Nov 12th, 2013 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0if anything about world history shows us on this subject, its state run industries eat into the national tax base & are less competitive. I mean look next door to see what i'm talking about.
I really don't understand why some of south america is going backwoods i.e Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia etc. Haven't they learned from Europe's mistakes?.
To my dear hermanitos Shilenos...
Nov 12th, 2013 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some decades ago, the SOCIALIST administration of a looong, slim and beautiful Country blessed with high mountains, deep fjords and able PEOPLE, took the wise decision of nationalizing their rich mineral deposits…
At the same time, that same SOCIALIST administration shrewdly decided to develop locally all the required know-how to make the most of their rich mineral deposits…
Today; NORWAY’S population in its totality are quite probably the richest PEOPLE in the world…
Not just some of their banksters, millonaires and other “lucky ones”…
Who ever said that SOCIALISM doesn’t pay?
SOCIALIST greetings…
El Think
:-)
Think just proved my point on another post though I was talking about someone from the United States.
Nov 12th, 2013 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Typical American that sees the political centre in other countries as to the left and anything even slightly further than that just therefore be extreme left.”
SOCIALISM is only a bad word in the US, many countries practise what would be considered SOCIALISM including my own and it's fully supported by the population. However SOCIAL DEMOCRACY is a better term.
But Chileans are always thankfully that their country doesn't practise the Argentinean version of SOCIALISM or worse the Venezuelan version of SOCIALISM. Modelling themselves on the SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC model in the Nordic countries would ensure the Chilean model continues to deliver.
Only a right wing nut job or paranoid left loony would label Chile as SOCIALIST.
(22) cornishair
Nov 12th, 2013 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
“If anything about world history shows us on this subject, its state run industries eat into the national tax base & are less competitive. I mean look next door to see what i'm talking about”
I say...:
Yes, Mr. Cornishair....
Do please look next door.... to NORWAY, where the State Run Oil Industry has put some U$S 717 billion in the State Pension Fund of each and every Norwegian...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
That’s about U$S 150,000 (and growing) earned & deposited by Norwegian SOCIALISM in each and every Norwegian citizen Pension Fund…
How much has British LIBERALISM earned & deposited in your Pension Fund, Mr. Cornishair...?
I really don't understand why the UK is going backwoods i.e England, Scotland, Wales, Cornishistan etc. Can't they learn from Norway's success?.
@ 24 Anglotino
Nov 12th, 2013 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can usually follow your arguments very well indeed, but I am confused about “SOCIALISM is only a bad word in the US, many countries practise what would be considered SOCIALISM including my own and it's fully supported by the population. However SOCIAL DEMOCRACY is a better term.”
Hasn’t the Labour party just lost power in Australia after the Welsh woman cocked it up?
The UK had socialism under New Labour: they really fucked everything up and the Cunt Brown never shows his face in the UK now – I think he is frightened somebody might top him.
Socialism is a soft version to being a commie in many westerners eyes, me included. The stupid bastards in New Labour STILL sing “We’ll keep the red flag flying here” at all their conferences FFS.
No thanks, you can keep Labour, New Labour and Socialism.
@ 25 The Lunatic of Chew Butt.
Where pray do you think British Liberalism is? There are NO Liberals in the UK any longer they have sold their party to be in the witches coven of Camoron, et al. And they are screwing up as much as the New Labour twats did.
STEVIE
NO COUNTRY SETS the price of any consumable commodity that is available outside that country. FACT.
YOU might think they do in that social inclusion world you live in wherever that is but BUYERS decide if they want to buy and the demand sets the price at which the supplier will need to accommodate their wishes OR NO SALE. They don’t have to sell, but where will they find the money from to replace the value of the lost sale. It’s a very old concept and it is called supply and demand.
Oh, and I just LOVE this latest little missive “And the private mines collects a lot more in revenue than they ever invest, for logical reasons.” Which “logical reasons” would they be: we won’t invest, we will pocket the money, the mine will produce less and we will lose money? That’s a good one.
And who is we in ”But we are merely starting... In 10 years we achieved more than the “needers” in almost 200?
“Socialism is a soft version to being a commie in many westerners eyes, me included.”
Nov 12th, 2013 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not mine. I think there is a lot of confusion about ideals and reality. For instance, New Labour was never a socialist government. In many ways it was more Tory than the Tory party. TB just used the label of 'socialism' to spend his way to re-election. You could say it was populist.
“Do please look next door.... to NORWAY” next door? -
Nov 12th, 2013 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Norway: 2013 census 5,063,709[4]
- Density 15.5/km2 (213th)
35/sq mi
United kingdom : 2011 census 63,181,775[5] (22nd)
- Density 255.6/km2 (51st)
661.9/sq m
I would say its a lot easier for a Norway with its tiny population to set up a sovereign wealth fund. It's population divide by natural resources.
There a question, why is Argentina so crap at resource management?
@23 Primito Che
Nov 12th, 2013 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So with Think-logic absolute monarchy is better than socialism because Qatar has greater GDP / head than Norway?
(28) cornishair
Nov 12th, 2013 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ayee.... Norway is nexdoor, just look at the map (on the right)......
I can see that you “forgot” to include an “inconvenient fact” in your calculation....
The fact that since 1975 the UK has extracted 7 to 8 times as much oil from the North Sea as Norway has....
That pretty much equalizes your “Population Divided by Natural Resources” argument ....
@ 26 ChrisR
Nov 13th, 2013 - 01:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0I said “many countries practise what would be considered SOCIALISM” and meant that when compared to the US. That does not make them socialist.
And while Labor (uses US spelling) lost power, that is not because the country lurched to the left but because they were just plain incompetent.
The Labor Party in Australia contains many socialists but is far from it. Indeed it was the Labor Party that created some of the greatest economic reforms in Australia in the past 30 years. Floating our dollar, reducing trade barriers and selling government enterprises. And with a federal government debt of less than 20%, they are positively fiscally conservative.
In Australia I sit firmly in the centre. I am slightly centre-right in economic policy and personal rights and responsibilities and slightly centre-left with regards to social reform and economic support for the vulnerable.
In places like the UK I’d probably be considered right of the centre and in the US considered quite a fair way to the left.
In Argentina and Venezuela I would be considered a right-wing nut job.
From what I understand about Chile, and will eventually see for myself as I am considering doing part of my Masters in Santiago, is that Chile's political spectrum is very similar to Australia's. And indeed there are many parallels with Australia in the 1970s when we introduced a free health care system and free university. These have both been reformed and changed since then with the incentives for private health insurance and government supplied student loans as you now partially pay.
However Chile has the hindsight and perspective to see that evolution.
If Bachelet wins, Chile will become no more socialist than places like Australia, New Zealand and half a dozen European countries, no matter how much Think likes to bandy around the word SOCIALIST. Indeed, for poor old Think is will be a pyrrhic victory as Chile will only improve and pull further away from the rusting hulk of Argentina.
@26 Chris R
Nov 13th, 2013 - 06:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0You might be amused to know that Australia was governed for 23 consecutive years by a conservative coalition that was, in fact, highly protectionist. Being a coalition, the junior party - the Nationals - were given both the Deputy Prime ministership and the Treasury and allowed considerable latitude over economic policy. It was a convention. In the late sixties if you had produced a new widget and wanted protection for your new product all you had to do was ring the appropriate bureaucrat in the Dept of Trade and Commerce and ask for a new Tariff. “No worries mate” would be the reply.
We got away with it because we had so little competition for so long. It has left us with a legacy of relatively low competitiveness and productivity. We are a long way behind Germany and Japan in this respect. As noted in the above post the Hawke/Keating govt. opened up the economy, negotiated the 'Accord' with the unions and encouraged foreign investment which duly flooded in and led to the economy being overheated ( too much easy credit - sound familiar? ) and a recession.
The last Coalition govt. ( '95-'07 ) actually INCREASED so-called 'middle-class welfare. Their attempts to change the balance of workplace relations in favour of employers (' Workchoices' ) was a key reason behind their fall from power.
Since the early '70's we have been, like just about every western democracy, a mixture of Capitalism and Socialism and any politician that attempts to tamper too much with this mixture does so at their peril.
@ 31 & 32
Nov 13th, 2013 - 10:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks guys for the info. As I have posted before we love Australia and were on track to become self-funded retirees in S.A. before the Cunt Brown screwed us over and I lost half of my net wealth.
Apart from the knee jerk reaction with gun control I thought John Howard was pretty good, at least he knew how to tackle “multi-culturism” by telling them if they didn’t like the way Australia did it they should piss-off back home, in almost those words.
Just like the “special relationship” Britain is supposed to have with the U.S. I thought he was a bit too close to the U.S. President but that would be my only minor comment. We were very disappointed when we realised that we couldn’t make it.
We love Uruguay, the people are very welcoming (just like the Aussies) but learning Spanish at 67 YO is somewhat akin to the trials of Sisyphus, just when it starting to seem as if you have a grasp on it something else appears and you are back to square one. How a “language” can have up to 32 meanings for some words is way beyond me: “it’s all in the intonation” we are told. Ah well, we can’t have everything.
At the risk of derailing this thread I'll leave you with this anecdote: in 2008 John Howard was invited by his good buddy Dubya to give a speech at his Presidential Library. He was greeted very warmly until someone asked him what he considered his greatest achievement was. When he stated that would be the gun laws he enacted, with considerable political skill I might add, after the Port Arthur massacre, there was an audible gasp from the audience ( it was Texas after all ). This is one of points at which American and Australian conservatism diverge. Sharply.
Nov 13th, 2013 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am in agreement with him on this issue - it is his greatest achievement and has saved many lives. The intervention in East Timor is not far behind and that also saved many lives ( from Indonesian militia).
(34) Heisenbergcontext
Nov 13th, 2013 - 05:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Welcome back...
The Gun Law & East Timor were indeed brave political decisions...
......... Just to feed Ozzie Anglolatino's paranoia, I found a clear musical connection between you and Patagonia ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAmNqSpbFIw
Just in the nick of time for you Think. Up pops the person that you love chatting to.
Nov 13th, 2013 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Especially considering your major faux pas on the Falkland's museum thread. You seemed to quickly disappear from that thread when I highlighted it. How unlike you.
As for misspelling my name. It is indeed a shame as I have always used the name you have chosen to comment under on here. Even though it is an easy and classic rhyme with several words that would easily fit my opinion of you. The fact that you have chosen to do as several others says a lot about you. Even being old and intelligent doesn't save some from being juvenile and petty.
I shall however continue to use your name correctly. I don't need pettiness.
@35 Think
Nov 18th, 2013 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0I haven't kept up with the 'Walter White saga' for some time so I was baffled by your post until now. Fortunately we get Breaking Bad free to air on the ABC ( 8 cents a day! ), which I am now watching. Mystery solved.
Would you believe I had no idea?
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