MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
UK summons Spanish ambassador following the latest incursion in Gibraltar territorial waters
Acting Permanent Under Secretary Matthew Rycroft summoned the Spanish Ambassador H.E. Federico Trillo on Tuesday afternoon to raise the United Kingdom’s serious concerns regarding a significant incursion into British Gibraltar Territorial Waters on 18 and 19 November. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesSend the navy Camoron!....oh wait a minute.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Cant control their land - queues, probable congestion charge on the way.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Cant control their sea - 20 hr surveys, rubber bullets at jet-ski's, constant incursions.
Cant control their air - Spanish fighters fly over for lolz, no official airspace, flights dependent on Spain's permission.
Streets full of Spanish shoppers and workers, Spanish spoken everywhere, euro accepted. Running out of space, residents tuck for housing living and making use of public facilities/services in lalinea.
Cant control their economy - see border, flights, Spanish territorial waters. Produce nothing of worth. A couple of EU gambling or tax directives from implosion.
But wave a British flag if it makes you feel better, even if your first name probably is derived from Spanish and your grandparents were Portuguese and Italian.
*wiki: Visitor demographics are dominated by day-trippers from neighbouring Spain – 90 per cent of visits[20] are made on excursions from Spain, either local Spanish people or Britons visiting or residing in Spain
No point in seeking solace in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea when the UK continues to ignore consistent UN resolutions since 1967 requiring the UK to decolonise Gibraltar.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 05:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0@1,@2,@3
Nov 20th, 2013 - 07:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Spain is the bully here. Gibraltar is firmly in the hands of its people, whatever reverse psychology you try is fruitless and merit-less. Britain has and always will operate within international law which is not what Spain is doing. Do you see British war ships within Spanish waters without authorisation from Spain? no. Spain is a member of NATO, a so called democratic country and in fact Britain is protecting Spain. Britain retains its integrity when dealing with those unversed diplomacy. You guys talk in the tones of a bully. Britain has always dealt with bullies and when we've had our fill of tea, we'll deal with you. We always do.
This must be Spain's idea of escalating the conflict.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 07:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0PMSL
That's it? Wow Gibraltar must be ready to give in and join Spain according to Vestige with all this lack of control!
LOL
How the hell did Spain conquer so much of Latin America if this is their idea of conflict?
Hey Argentina, look the Spaniards are showing you how it's done.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 09:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why don't you have a go, send a survey ship and anchor off Stanley.
If you have one that can sail that far?
1,2,3 you see incursions, lack of control i see evidence. Evident that will lead increasingly to further actions and due to the evidence will be justifiable action. meaning UK right Spain wrong. Gib have been without a land border before and would survive with our one today. Law of the sea and decolonization are two separate things and lets be honest decolonization has very little to do with the UK, that is for the people of Gib to decide for themselves like the peoples of Melilla and Ceuta,
Nov 20th, 2013 - 09:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0@3
Nov 20th, 2013 - 09:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0The UK has decolonised Gibraltar, t the satisfaction of the Gibraltarian people.
Allowing the territory to be occupied by an unwanted foreign power is not decolonization.
@2
You are confusing not feeding the troll with victory for the troll. Trolls often make this mistake, especially the dumb and credulous ones.
Spain is playing a very dangerous game by intruding in British Gibraltar Territorial Waters. If it continues, then the Royal Navy will be ordered to detain the vessels, as the Iranians detained our boats in the Gulf, a few years ago. Cameron is facing an election in 2015 and Gibraltar may provide the 'Falklands Factor' that helps him to be re-elected.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 09:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0We only have to recall the embarrassment for Argentina when the ARA Libertad was detained in Ghana for 77 days for non-payment of Argentine Government debts. Argentina had to appeal to the UN International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea to ask for the ship to be released. It was, but only on the grounds that it was a military ship and therefore immune to seizure. If the vessel had been a civilian ship, say a survey ship, then it could have been detained indefinitely and the ITLOS would have refused to order the release.
If Spain is stupid enough to send survey ships into BGTW (as they have yet again this morning) then the British Government may order the detachment of Royal Marines on the Rock to detain the vessel, confiscate it and then hold the crew in custody until Spain admits that the vessel was in British Gibraltar Territorial Waters and apologises for trespassing in them contrary to Article 19 (the right of innocent passage) under the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea.
Well, the Spanish are totally wasting there time, it is funny they think things like this and border controls will weaken the Brits on the Rock, lol.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0But we all know what Spain is like with its toys/pram situation
I propose:
1. (LRAD) is an acoustic hailing device and sonic weapon developed by LRAD fitted to the Gib police boats or RN boats, very effective weapon, non lethal “almost none lethal”
2. Very much like when you park your car in the wrong place, you might get towed, so lets start towing the boats into Gib, then they can make there own way back and we impound the boats, would be funny seeing these guys in a queue trying to get out. Lawfully we could do this, as it is British Territorial Waters, as Nigel above said this is a real option.
3. Its about time the UK started to look at Spanish imports to UK territories, hold them up in customs slow them down as much as possible and start to ban them slowly but surely.
4. We have to effect tourism in the immediate area & Spain as a whole, work with British tour operators to achieve this and send folk elsewhere to holiday, Greece is far better than Spain anyway.
5. Show support for the regions in Espana that want independence & publicly back them. Financially if necessary!
If they want to piss about fine, but we can do more damage than they can long term.
I gather the Garda Civil boats approached Red Wolf
Nov 20th, 2013 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.tarik.gi/boat_redwolf.html
which was '..assisting in works being carried out in the area'
'The Spanish State research vessel, the RV Ramon Margalef, undertook significant surveying activity in British Gibraltar Territorial Waters on 18 and 19 November for over 20 hours.'
I guess they were trying to find out what the Wolf was up to.
Too, too silly ... everybody knows that spying must be done secretly.
I suggest they send some Commander Crabbes to find out, then - like in James Bond - our goodies can battle with their baddies. Lots of cut breathing tubes and big bubbles.
And if the big bad Spanish guy with the cat on his lap doesn't back off, then the cat gets it too.
I see Gibraltar managed to hold Slovakia to a 0-0 draw in their international friendly last night. A much better performance than England put out.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@1 Ever see a British nuclear-powered submarine fire a Tomahawk cruise missile? Here's a picture of an American submarine firing a Tomahawk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_030114-N-XXXXX-001_USS_Florida_launches_a_Tomahawk_cruise_missile_during_Giant_Shadow_in_the_waters_off_the_coast_of_the_Bahamas.jpg
Nov 20th, 2013 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You'll notice that the missile can be fired from below the surface. And from up to 1,000 nautical miles away.
But why bother the Royal Navy? The British Army has artillery and tanks of various classes. All capable of firing more than halfway across the Bay of Gibraltar. And Apache attack helicopters as well. The RAF, of course, are more than capable of destroying the Spanish air force. Spain has 136 combat aircraft. The RAF has 222. And air-launched cruise missiles.
@2 Laugh if you wish. So did Hitler!
@3 Gibraltar has been decolonised. How come Spain insists on talking to the British government instead of the Government of Gibraltar? So Spain is actually enforcing a “colonial” situation! Perhaps you should learn how to define a “colony”. Because, by any reasonable definition, Gibraltar isn't one.
Don't they have any tugs in Gib? If so, send one out and push the offending vessel out of Gib's. territorial waters. Simples.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This Picardo is a“fishy” chap!! wouldn´t trust him for one minute!!
Nov 20th, 2013 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even the Gibraltar opposition party in Gibraltar have woken up to this man, and have began to question his actions.Something not seen in Gibraltar in many many years.The credit finance company limited scandal where Picardo has used 344 million pounds of the Gibraltar Savings Bank Account to buy shares in the Government owned company called Credit Finance Company Limited and has refused to answer questions by the opposition in Parliament to what he has spent this money on..........moreover it has been revealed that public money has been loaned to
THE FLOATING HOTEL HOTEL COMPLEX which would be totally illegal.
so we can see that Mr Picardo is making lots of enemies abroad and within.
It is Britain's role to defend the territorial integrity of Gibraltar.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was there at the annual renewal of this defensive pact earlier in the year.
One would have expected the radio messages heard on the sound-media and on You Tube to be between the errant vessels and the British military - and so it proved to be.
But I also heard that instruction was being given from 'higher up'. It was decided politically to keep tensions low and to not impound the vessel.
Talk about leaning over backwards to avoid offending the Spanish!
If the Spanish 'research vessel' had motored up the Thames and done its spying whilst anchored off the Houses of Parliament, do you think that we would have seen such reticence?
Other nations are not so reticent; and for that Spain should be thankful.
Learn to reason and share. It need not be the end of the world to give (or return) Spain some share of sovereignty. After all it was a territory taken from Spain, whats to be expected - oh well guess we better just let it be, so they are entitled to use our country, but we can't use theirs, even if it is connected to our mainland. Dont try to live in the 18th century.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How do you think Britain would look on such a situation if in Spains shoes? (spare me the oh we'd respect it by law bs - we know what would happen.)
A shared sovereignty, even token in nature would solve a lot of this conflict. (remembering the place is what~ 7 sq km?)
Granting resident status to citizens of lalinea at a comfortable percentage of Gib total. Sharing sovereignty in name, and some small token areas of administration and maybe even eventually losing the border would probably fix it all overnight.
Spain would pay the price of actually recognizing the place and its status and the future would be a lot more certain, peaceful and comfortable.
(and the UK would be pssing off 1 less country)
See Andorra.
But no, righteous indignation and all that. Dig in and bravely take the cavalry charge of Johnny Foreigner, we'll fight them on the beaches.
And Spain should do the same with Ceuta/Melilla too in my correct opinion.
(conqueror - theres probably not space to park tanks and helicopters and crew and storage and facilities there)
Spain hides behind Article 15 Section 2 of UN Law of the Sea which states that 'the above provision does not apply, however, where it is necessary by reason of historic title or other special circumstances to delimit the territorial seas of two states in a way which is at variance therewith.' They then quote the Treaty of Utrecht which 'supposedly' only ceded Gibraltar harbour.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0however, International Law, a cession of territory is automatically followed by a cession of territorial waters.
In the 1850s it was accepted that all states were entitled to 3-nautical miles of territorial sea - Gibraltar being no exception. To move on and prove the point somewhat I am going to quote from the UK Parliament Hansard from 20th June 1911. A question arose about Russia increasing its territorial sea limits. The Foreign Secretary Sir Edward Grey then stated, 'As I informed the hon. member for North Down, representations on the subject have already been addressed to the Russian government to the effect that the 3-mile limit cannot be altered without international agreement.'
In 1907 Britain, France and Spain signed the Cartagena Declaration where the Spanish acknowledged in paragraph 3 ' the maintenance of the territorial status quo, and in pursuance of this policy they are firmly resolved to preserve the rights of the British Crown over its INSULAR and MARITIME possessions in those regions.' - Mediterranean - Gibraltar
The Spanish had willingly sought help from Britain and Spain to help them defend their island possessions from the Germans.
The English copy of the agreement is also signed by the Foreign Secretary, Sir Edward Grey and is attached.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2212238
“In the 1850s it was accepted...”
Nov 20th, 2013 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ I am going to quote from the UK Parliament Hansard from 20th June 1911...”
Its that kind of 19th century, pedantic and technical thinking that has Spain exercising its technical and pedantic rights to 'prevent smuggling' with 4 hour queues.
How many conventions, directives, accords, laws etc is Britain in contravention of.
Do you really expect something other than animosity and disagreeableness in this case ?
Their (Gib) choice I suppose.
15
Nov 20th, 2013 - 05:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Floating hotel.....what a great idea is Gibraltar investing in them?
Why not go one step further and start buying up retired cruise liners, anchor them in the bay to provide accommodation for workers in Gibraltar and not be reliant on the Spanish workers crossing the border daily....
They could attract workers from the UK if accommodation is provided...
Even build a new boardwalk connecting them to the land and no need for boats..
Comment removed by the editor.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 020 - they could call it water world.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No matter what you say, we say, they say,
Nov 20th, 2013 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0British policy at this moment in time is appeasement,
We are confidant, we hope, EU rules, NATO rules, Agreements, rule of the sea ect ect ,
We are friends, and as such we must extend our hand of friendship to the poor Spanish people,
After all they are being punished for there incompetent government looking to divert attention,
Listening to the conservative minister today, one would have to wonder who he really cared for,
The giblatarians, and thus the British people,
Or the poor Spanish people living in a third world country that desperately need our help, rather than our wrath,
Now then we all know we just can’t send in the navy to escalate this into a military conflict,
Then again we just can’t sit here and let them basically take the piss,
Or is the truth more sinister, we don’t have a spare ship to send, and if we were forced into escalating the conflict, it would severely embarrass the government,
Into admitting we cut back to far, and thus cannot protect ourselves,
Yet if British civil ships entered Spanish waters, would they just sit back and complain, or send there navy?
Just what does one do?
We are caught between the frying pan and the fire,
What would the Americans do, the Russians, or the French perhaps,
[personally]
One would send the marines, the RAF Apache helicopters, and the navy,
And defend our interest,
Just a thought..?
That's right Gibraltar Water World .....the new Venice of the Med....
Nov 20th, 2013 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great attraction a floating city.....
Would it be legal?
@17 Let's look at your little “suggestions”. Gibraltar was “ceded”. That's not “taken”. “Shared sovereignty”? I guess you could have that. On the peninsula. Nowhere else. One millimetre deep. With 500 metre wide gaps. Happy? Resident status? Sure. No problem. Two of them. Once they have completed all necessary formalities. Simple things. A full criminal records history. Genetic history. Tearing up Spanish passport. Repudiating Spanish nationality. Five years residence in Britain. Perfect command of English. Easily acquired through a 5-year course of British history.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(By the way, twonk, there's plenty of room. Simple tip. 5 Apaches could kill the entire Spanish navy. 5 British fleet submarines could kill Spain. Math problem? That's 150 Tomahawk cruise missiles). Then there's the air-launched cruise missiles from Tornados and Typhoons.
@19 None. Because you're dead meat. Shall we make 200 miles from Spain's southern coast a “dead zone”? Where nothing lives. No real change. Nothing “human” lives in Spain.
@19 It is the Spanish that keep quoting Utrecht in their legal attempts to justify 15 (2) of UNCLOS.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is as Jose Antonis de Yturriaga, the former Spanish Ambassador of Ireland, Iraq and Russia said, 'The Spanish position on the issue of Gibraltar's territorial waters was weak and lacks any legal basis.'
Which Spanish town is twinned with Dunkirk ?
Nov 20th, 2013 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can just imagine the conversation in the C&FO:
Nov 20th, 2013 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now you have seen the evidence for yourself Mr. Ambassador what have you to say?
Ambassador: Ezz not a problem! Zeee boat was justa pizzing about in the harbour. Whatsamatter then?
C&FO: Right we have had enough! From now on the Spanish workers will have to be searched for “contraband” at our side of the border and any such items will be seized without compensation.
Ambassador: Izz illegal mate. Spain will cry at the EU about all this ‘azzle to our sheeps and they will fall for it again, the EUzzz will!
C&FO: Right we are getting nowhere, you may leave after passing through the body scanner.
Ambassador: Ezz a problem mate! Zee got 200 ciggies in ze briefcase! Whatayergoingtodoabout dat?
C&FO: You are hereby issued with the order to leave immediately and return to Spain.
Ambassador: Oh no, pleeze no makerme go back to Spain, ezz run by fookin crooks, I no wannergo there, pleez, preety pleez!
@17 Vestige
Nov 20th, 2013 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re Andorra
Who has the most power(on earth anyway) - the Bishop of Urgell or the French President. Or put it another way - who put the troops there when the Spanish Civil War was on.
Comment removed by the editor.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 029 - who knows, who cares. Its just an example of shared sovereignty.
Nov 20th, 2013 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Retain the lions share of everything, power isn't the issue.
Can anyone name a single concrete gain for Gibraltar from shared sovereignty between the UK and Spain.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0@17
Nov 21st, 2013 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0The trouble with this solution is that it presupposes the inhabitants do not have the same supposedly 'universal' rights everybody else does. On what basis are they are not entitled to these rights?
> How many conventions, directives, accords, laws etc is Britain in contravention of.
I don't know. How many?
@ Vestige
Nov 21st, 2013 - 12:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0None still. But ut is a goodsuggestiom
33 - How so, Im talking about the Gib's themselves making the choice.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0how many - 32 million and five point two.
Peple have Gibraltar have made their choice and it was an emphatic NO to being Spanish.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 02:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0In 2002 87.9% of the population voted on shared sovereinty between Spain and the UK. 98.48% said NO. This equating to 86.56% of the electorate. 187 people said yes!
And what did Spain do in the past 11 years to change the minds of everyone other than those 187?
The opposite!
@ 3 Betelgeuse
Nov 21st, 2013 - 02:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0“UK continues to ignore consistent UN resolutions since 1967 requiring the UK to decolonise Gibraltar.”
Which resolutions require the UK to decolonise Gibraltar?
@ 36 Anglotino
Nov 21st, 2013 - 02:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Spanish bullying probably also changed the minds of some of the 187 - shall we guess that there's less than 150 left now?
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 03:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Spain (and Argentina) have never learnt this lesson.
13 Conqueror @1 Ever see a British nuclear-powered submarine fire a Tomahawk cruise missile?
Nov 21st, 2013 - 03:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0No Mr. Conqueror, but I saw one getting stuck in the mud in the middle of the day in Scotland.
http://wonkette.com/427479/dumb-british-submarine-stuck-in-mud
http://wonkette.com/427479/dumb-british-submarine-stuck-in-mud
Go home.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 06:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hypocrit.
“Royal Nadie” been sent to GIB fun...
Nov 21st, 2013 - 07:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Conqueror bombarding Spain and Argentina with a single TOM just more fun...
But meanwhile in the real world more bad news from the Dark Kingdom...
US and UK struck secret deal to allow NSA to 'unmask' Britons' personal data
• 2007 deal allows NSA to store previously restricted material
• UK citizens not suspected of wrongdoing caught up in dragnet
• Separate draft memo proposes US spying on 'Five-Eyes' allies
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-deal-surveillance-personal-data
Freedom and democracy in the Dark Kingdom?
“Las Pelotas” Will be?
How long you can keep a secret?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-deal-surveillance-personal-data
@ 27 St. John
Nov 21st, 2013 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Read for instance this one: ”The General Assembly (...) requests the administrating power to terminate the COLONIAL situation in Gibraltar no later than 1 october 1967”.
http://www.refworld.org/docid/3b00f05654.html
#42
Nov 21st, 2013 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dany, why do you keep posting youtube videos in SPANISH.
We are monolinguists which means we no speako Dago
#43
Read this one !
Article X of The Treaty of Utrecht 1713 (English translation)
The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.
But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kind of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the above-named propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction and without any open communication by land with the country round about.
Yet whereas the communication by sea with the coast of Spain may not at all times be safe or open, and thereby it may happen that the garrison and other inhabitants of Gibraltar may be brought to great straits; and as it is the intention of the Catholic King, only that fraudulent importations of goods should, as is above said, be hindered by an inland communications. it is therefore provided that in such cases it may be lawful to purchase, for ready money, in the neighbouring territories of Spain, provisions and other things necessary for the use of the garrison, the inhabitants, and the ships which lie in the harbour.
This trumps YOUR request !
http://www.schoonerpickle.com
Nov 21st, 2013 - 12:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hm goverment should hire this the next time the spanish decide to play silly games.
Being chased by a reproduction 19th centuary schooner with a crew in 19th century finery might make them Understand how foolish they are being
@Clyde15
Nov 21st, 2013 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The fact that you are monolingual and with just a basic education, etc. doesn’t mean that the rest of the porters here are in your same level.
So as you can imagine by now my post was directed to the educated, refined and polyglot audience of Mercopress.
Sorry next time I will put a Warning saying “No dogs, No monolinguals and dumbass here, please”
SYL
*44 That tells the world how cultured you are!!! Where the average European speaks three languages you poms speak none.....Shame. The treaty of Ultrect is none existing as Gibraltar has broken many of its articles.....We can clean our arses with that document...our better still sell the treaty to Venezuela as they might need it more than Spain. The law has sided with Spain in the UN and the EU..and in my opinion Spain should take Gibraltar to the International Court on the NEUTRAL LAND that was occupied by the Gibs back in history.The neutral stretch of land that was occupied by The Brits when there was an epidemic of some sort and Spain let them use this land to put up hospital tents to treat the sick but the Brits took that land and never gave it back .The airport is built on that neutral strech of land.SPAIN MUST TAKE THIS CASE TO THE INTERNATIONAL COURT AND RECUPERATE WHAT WAS STOLEN BY THE BRITS.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ Clyde15
Nov 21st, 2013 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, how clever of you, keeping out of “your” version of the Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht the last part which engages Britain to give back Gibraltar to Spain in the case that it tries to give the Rock to other part, which precludes the independence. Here can you fin the COMPLETE article:
http://www.gibnet.com/library/utrecht.htm
BTW, don't forget, “property” instead of “sovereignty” and “without territorial jurisdiction”, the main attribute of sovereignty.
Haha Aussie you are funny.
Nov 21st, 2013 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'That tells the world how cultured you are!!! Where the average European speaks three languages you poms speak none'
Presumably you mean educated rather than cultured and if I speak no languages how am I typing this? On top of that there is a huge amount of the British population who speak multiple languages but hey lets not get caught up with facts during your ranting!
And as for Gibraltar breaching treaties, name them specifically please and also in the same sentence tell us how many Spain has broken? But most importantly tell us what constitutes the treaty no longer being in force.
I think I can speak for the masses but we would love Spain to take Gibraltar/the UK too the international courts and have invited them to do so on many occasions but unsurprisingly Spain refuses, most likely like how Argentina refuses and that's because the law is very clearly on the side of those who have self-determination on their side.
Have fun!
*49 I will name one:
Nov 21st, 2013 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Article X
Having fun already!!
3 Betelgeuse
Nov 21st, 2013 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK is following the precepts of international law to the letter by for filling her UN Charter obligations. Whereas UNGA are not international law but merely political advisements with no legal compellability.
Moreover, there is no legal obligation to settle disputes thus:
“there is no obligation in general international law to settle disputes”.
Principles of Public International Law, third edition, 1979 by Professor Ian Brownlie
and
“The precise scope of the obligation is, however, that states should settle disputes peacefully, not that they should settle them. In other words, there is no general rule requiring a state to settle its grievances. Rather, the rule is that if a state does decide to settle, this must be done in a peaceful manner.”
page 275
Textbook on International Law By Martin Dixon
http://books.google.com.br/books...
47 Spanish Sunshine
Nov 21st, 2013 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain signed the Helsinki Accord along with the UK. Part IV - 'the participating state will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating states.'
The UN ICJ would just remind Spain that they have signed the Helsinki Accord.
Also, every First Minister of Gibraltar when addressing the UN, has openly encouraged Spain to take all of its sovereignty matters over Gibraltar to the UN ICJ. Thus far nothing...LOL.
In the eyes of the good , loyal , obedient , and law abiding ,
Nov 21st, 2013 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The British will not yet send a navy ship, as this might be provocative,
And we cant have that,?
Today however the Spanish have sent a navy ship to escort the first ship, [just in case]
But this is not seen as provocative,
Apparently only the British can be provocative,
They are our waters, state the government, but we must not stop anyone from entering them, as this is provocative,
But Spain apparently can do what it likes,, when it likes , where it likes , and to whom it likes,
As this is not provocative,
Apparently then? If Spain sent troops over the boarder to embark on a Spanish ship,
Protected by a Spanish navy destroyer , backed up by Spanish air force jets landing on Gibraltar’s runway,
This may not bee seen as provocative,
But god help the British if they try to stop them,
For this would be seen as provocative ,
The only way to get round this stupid farce , by a stupid government, is to wake up, protect British interests and fxck the word provocative right where the sun don’t shine between the Spanish and the EU,??
Still,
As long as the unmighty EU don’t catch on,, the more they treat us like the leaper they do,
The more chance of us leaving this stupid EU,
And then see what happens to the arrogant Spanish flies..lol
,
just a thought
@18 Hola BritBob, por fin nos encontramos.
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Hoping desire to contribute by all means to the preservation of peace, and convinced that the aintenance of territorial status quo and the rights of Spain and Great Britain in the Mediterranean and in the Atlantic which washes the shores of Europe and Africa should serve effectively to that end, being while beneficial to both nations, also joined by secular bonds of friendship and community of interest; The Government of His Catholic Majesty wishes to inform the Government of His Britannic Majesty the declaration, the tenor follows, with the firm hope that will help, not only to strengthen the good understanding which so happily exist between the two Governments, but also to serve the cause of peace :
The general policy of the Government of His Catholic Majesty in thea bove regions aims at maintaining the status territorial quo , and, under this policy, THE GOVERNMENT IS FIRMLY DETERMINED TO PRESERVE INTACT THE RIGHTS OF THE SPANISH CROWN ON ISLANDS AND MARITIME POSSESIONS LOCATED IN THE AFOREMENTIONED REGIONS.
In the case of changing circumstances could modify or contribute to modify the current territorial status quo , the Government shall in communication with the Government of His Britannic Majesty, a so put the two governments in a position to arranged , if deem appropriate, regarding the steps they had taken into
common.
Cartagena de Levante, May 16th, 1907”
Two things.
First: Maintaining the status quo is to keep the status quo. That is, maintain the conditions of the day June 15th, 1907 in the future. And on June 15, 1907 Spain did not recognize any maritime jurisdiction over the waters or on the southern half of the isthmus.
Second. Spain makes it clear that “is firmly determined to preserve intact the rights of the Spanish Crown”. I think it's pretty clear. Do not? Do you get the same feeling?
If Spain has so many rights and Gibraltar has so few legal legs to stand on, why has nothing changed?
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why doesn't the UN tell the UK to hand Gibraltar over to Spain?
Because it doesn't.
Why doesn't the EU tell the UK to hand Gibraltar over to Spain?
Because it doesn't.
Why doesn't Spain take the UK to the ICJ?
Because it hasn't.
There is supposedly treaties and UN resolutions galore and yet.......
Spain has not gained a single inch.
*sigh! Another seemingly unanswerable question for our Spanish friends on here.
46 DanyBerger :-)))))))))))))
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 05:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0@52 Britbob Siempre llegamos al mismo callejón.
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 11:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0“VIII. Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
The participating States will respect the equal rights of peoples and their right to self-determination, acting at all times in conformity with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and with the relevant norms of international law, INCLUDING THOSE RELATING TO TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF STATES.
Helsinki, August 1st, 1975”
Which territorial integrity do you mean? I remember in 1967 the UN, on the issue of Gibraltar, claimed the UK to initiate talks with Spain to restore the Spanish territorial integrity.
#46
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 12:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I told a fib when I said I was monolingual. I just put that in to give you a chance to have one of your supercilious rants. I speak French - a decent language- to a reasonable degree although I read it better than I can speak it.
As to basic education, depends what you define as basic. If you are an example of “higher education” then I am not impressed.
Your quote :- “ doesn’t mean that the rest of the porters here are in your same level.”...Your multilingual skills are slipping AGAIN ! PORTERS?
Well it's decent of you to admit that you and Marcos will have to make an exponential leap to reach the lofty heights of my intellect.
I was unaware that canine quadrupeds could read, I am not monolingual and if you mean dumbass then that's YOU and Marcos out of the scene. Sadly missed.....NOT.
#48
Thank you for pointing out my omission. As you say the Gibraltarians cannot be independent then we will just keep the territory under the British flag in perpetuity as per the treaty !!!!!!!!
How about Ceuta and Millela. A bit hypocritical on your part, perhaps .
57 Asdrúbal el Bello
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the General Assembly declared in 1970 that the modem prohibition against the acquisition of territory by conquest should not be construed as affecting titles to territory created 'prior to the Charter regime and valid under international law'
Akehursts Modern Introduction to International Law
By Peter Malanczuk
“INCLUDING THOSE RELATING TO TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF STATES.
Helsinki, August 1st, 1975”
NO,No you cannot apply legal determinants retroactively.
”The rule of the intertemporal law still insists that an act must be characterized in accordance with the law in force at the time it was done, or closely on the next occasion....”
The Acquisition of Territory in International Law
By Robert Yewdall Jennings © 1963
@59 You ALWAYS forget that Britain stated in 1946 (after the UN Charter) that Gibraltar was a colony. Subsequently UN claim that decolonization should be in accordance with the principle of territorial integrity. Spain wants decolonization of its territory under british administration. Be careful. Deng Xiao Ping moment is closing.
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Asdrúbal el Bello
Nov 22nd, 2013 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A colony does not mean that the land belongs to another state. The UN has never claimed that decolonisation should be with the principal of territorial integrity for Gibraltar.
If that was the case then Brunei should not be independent. Nor Singapore. Nor Papua New Guinea. Nor East Timor. Nor any former Yugoslav country. Those from the Soviet Union.
Independence is a valid UN option for non-self governing territories according to the UN. For every example you have of a UN listed territory becoming part of another country, I will show you 3 that didn't.
@59
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0'Colony' was simply a measure of how the territory in question was governed. In this respect, Gibraltar has already been decolonized. It should be obvious that forcibly requiring a territory to pass under alien sovereignity against the wishes of the inhabitants does not constitute decolonization.
If that's what you want to do, you should be campaigning for Gibraltar to be removed from the list of NSGTs, as China did for Hong Kong in the 1970s. This is the only way you can deny self-determination, which applies without exception or qualification to all NSGTs. But of course in so doing you would clearly demonstrate the emptiness of your case under modern international law, practice, and values.
Do correct me if I'm wrong,
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but was not Tibet once a nation with a 'people'?
It is now a non-self-governed territory of China.
Just like Greater Argentina
... or indeed, just like the USA - where the nations are now called 'states' or Reservations.
Scotland, on the other hand ...
@ Asdrúbal el Bello (60)
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 12:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't know about your experience with Britbob. Personally speaking, I think that he is a trickster. For instance, he tried to convice me during more than a week that an unsigned paper published by the New York City Bar Association was a ruling of the International Court of Justice.
Let me say that he seems to have a professional full-time job publishing posts in defence of the subsistence of the present Gibraltar situation in about fifty fora in all the world, including all the British press and such exotic media as the Iranian Press TV and the Saudi Gazette.
@Marcos Alejandro
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You too mate : )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
@64
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And not a sock puppet to be seen. Imagine that.
60 Asdrúbal el Bello
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Again attempting to apply a creation of a modern law retroactively i.e. 'territorial integrity' is barred under international law. It matters not one iota what sophism you attempt, nothing can top the UN Charter's magic words ”all people have the right of self-determination.
Yeah funnily enough that stops them dead every time!
Nov 23rd, 2013 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UNGA has decided that Gibraltar is a Non-Self-Governing Territory (NSGT) and that UNGA resolution 1514 applies (UN documents A/5800/Rev1 and A/6000/Rev1 refer) this means that Article 73 0f the UN Charter applies to Gibraltar and this states that the 'interests' of the 'inhabitants' are 'paramount'.
Nov 26th, 2013 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Further on two occasions the International Court of Justice (ICJ) has stated in advisory opinions that ALL NSGTs' have the right to self determination.
The above two points would indicate that the inhabitants of the 'Rock' can do whatever the hell they want and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them.
Same thing as for the Falklands.
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