MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Tory MPs want Spain pressed on the 'legal problems' of Ceuta and Melilla claimed by Morocco
A Tory MP has asked the British Government to press Spain within the European Union over “legal problems” arising from Ceuta and Melilla. Philip Hollobone, the Conservative MP for Kettering, made the request in a written parliamentary question on Gibraltar tabled in the House of Commons. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesCome on Fabian-meet the Morroccans and establish links to cut dependence on Spain.
Dec 04th, 2013 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No I agree that Ceuta and Melilla are totally different to Gibraltar.
Dec 04th, 2013 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mainly because I don't see independence in Ceuta and Melilla's future but I do with Gibraltar.
Gibraltar is more akin to the Faroe Islands or Greenland - part of the Kingdom of Denmark but self-governed and home-ruled with the option of a total seperate to independence easily possible if desired.
Ceuta and Melilla can't ever declare independence according to Spain as they are an integral part of Spain. Gibraltar does not have this problem as it is a seperate political entity within the United Kingdom.
Good hit Phil.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0This is going to be good, and it’s only the start.
Watch this space, and see how a Parliamentary democracy works.
All those in favour sending bigger boats, say aye, the ayes have in.
What the UK Gov wants, and what Parliament decides are not necessarily the same thing.
Spain has persistently pressured the British Government to resume the Brussels process talks, except they don't want the Gibraltarians involved, unless the Spanish can bring the Andalusian politicians too.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 12:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0From now on, the British Government ought to insist that if the Spanish want these talks, then they must include the Moroccans and representatives from Ceuta and Melilla too.
That should make the Spanish think twice about their claims on 'decolonising' Gibraltar, if they were forced to confront their own hypocrisy.
Further the Government of Gibraltar should team up with the Moroccans (and the Portuguese - Olivença) at the UN and present this dispute to highlight that Spain is a colonial country occupying others country's land.
Come on Fabian-meet the Morroccans and establish links to cut dependence on Spain.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 03:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Exports_of_Morocco_2006.png
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_morocco#Investment_by_country
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_morocco#Development_of_the_Northern_Region
Mainly because I don't see independence in Ceuta and Melilla's future but I do with Gibraltar.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar#British_position
This is going to be good, and it’s only the start.
www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/2013/08/05/44897/spain+issues+gibraltar+airspace+and+border+fee+threat.html
All those in favour sending bigger boats, say aye, the ayes have in.
images.encyclopediadramatica.es/7/73/Giveafuckometer.gif
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Spanish_Navy_ships#Surface_fleet
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Army#Personnel.2C_ranks
Vestige you have already had your arse kicked over this. Aussie shoes must be a familiar feel by now.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 05:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar is quite within its right according to the UN Charter to declare independence. The UK has a position but it accepts that Gibraltar does not share that position. The UK has stated this quite clearly and openly.
The UK is a signatory to the Treaty of Utrecht and has made it clear that it will adhere to that Treaty; however Gibraltar now has a distinct legal identity in international law and with the United Nations. Gibraltar is not a signatory to the Treaty of Utrecht and international law has moved on from a point where land was transferred willy-nilly by governments without any regard to the wishes of the population. Witness East Timor and South Sudan.
The UN has EXPLICITY stated more than once that all non-self governing territories that it recognises have the right to self determination without ANY conditions or limitations. The most it recognises for Spain is a sovereignty DISPUTE – it does NOT recognise Spanish rights.
Independence is an OPTION not a certainty. However Spain’s actions over the past couple of decades and especially this year are pushing Gibraltar in one direction only.
Your wishful thinking and hoping won't change the facts that already exist. Not that that will stop you.
@2 How about the argie “solution”? Invade, occupy and ethnic cleanse. No doubt the Moroccans could drop the Spaniards off somewhere suitable. Cadiz, perhaps!
Dec 05th, 2013 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@5 Are you incapable of posting links properly? I'm not in favour of links. Providing a precis is much more intelligible.
@6 Much of the Treaty of Utrecht is irrelevant and has been overtaken my modern law. In fact, I wonder if the UK shouldn't trot off to the ICJ and get it declared meaningless. Spain claims Gibraltar has no territorial waters. UNCLOS (269 years later) says it does. Spain says the Treaty of Utrecht is no longer valid because Britain allowed Jews and Muslims to live on the Rock. Moreover, in contravention of the Treaty, Spain has laid siege to the Rock more than once. Then let the UK declare the Treaty invalid in every respect. With the agreement of the people of Gibraltar, let the UK declare Gibraltar tyo be a British Crown Dependency. And that any Spanish acts constitute direct attacks on the British Crown. Acts of war! Deserving of a direct and overwhelming military response. Wait until early 2014 and then announce direct naval bombardment of enemy territory from Cadiz to Almeria and extending 25 miles inland. And when a naval vessel appears offshore? Would the average “holidaymaker” be able to tell the difference between a British and a Spanish naval vessel? Who could prevent panic? Total disruption of 200 or 300 miles of Spanish coastline. And that would cost Spain how much? EVERY DAY!
But I'd go with INDEPENDENCE. With a totally binding defence treaty with Britain requiring the same level of support and defence as would be afforded to a BOT or London. Would a foreign incursion into London merit an air strike with the intention of totally annihilating the intruder? Of course it would. So what's wrong with totally annihilating an unidentified intruder into the territory of the British Crown Dependency of Gibraltar? And if only UK transponders can be recognised?
@4 nigelpwsmith
Dec 05th, 2013 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is it fair to drag the people of Ceuta and Melilla into this shit, when they actually haven’t done anything?
And may well even have some sympathy with Gib, after all they have more in common with the people of Gib than most.
@5 Vestige
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=31970
Shadow (opposition) defence secretary wants bigger boats.
Tory MPs
Dec 05th, 2013 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are also calling for royal navy ships to be sent to Spain,
Spain on the other hand, unlike Argentina has much more to lose,
There greed arrogance and corruption will just speed up the break up of mainland Spain,
And Britain should do to them, what they are doing to us,
There is no room for such arrogance in the modern world,
Spain should grow up fast and leave Gibraltar alone,
Or go down the drain.
.
@9 Briton
Dec 05th, 2013 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Catalans are watching this closely be assured.
They have their own argument with Spain about the legitimacy/right of referenda.
We shall see if Catalan rights to self-determination, overrule Spain’s territorial integrity.
Like South Sudan, Kosovo, The other FYR’s, Eritrea ect, ect.
It wouldn't take much to inflame the very delicate situation between Morocco and Spain, not very much at all. Just a little nudge here and there and Spain could end up with a whole world of trouble on its plate and Morocco isn't obligated to any EU treaties.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 10:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That would be the absolute last thing Spain needs right now, they should be very careful.
Anglo - dont just talk .... reference your claims. (Like I do)
Dec 05th, 2013 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Boats see 3rd link from bottom, post 5 ... Spain can send boats too.
10 Pugol-H
Dec 06th, 2013 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0thanks,
perhaps Catalan may consider UDI...
Can we add Diego Garcia to that list ?
Dec 06th, 2013 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No we can't Vestige as it's not relevant to the conversation and no the next retort shouldn't be 'it is because......'
Dec 06th, 2013 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12 Vestige
Dec 07th, 2013 - 12:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Which Anglo are you talking to?
@14 Vestige
Just as soon as it’s declared habitable.
Vestige
Dec 07th, 2013 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My claims are true unless you can disprove them.
Exceptional claims demand exceptional evidence.
Dec 10th, 2013 - 12:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You cant even reference/cite your claims.
“Ceuta and Melilla can't ever declare independence according to Spain as they are an integral part of Spain. Gibraltar does not have this problem as it is a seperate political entity within the United Kingdom.”
“Problem” ? Why is being an integral part of the country that founded and funded and protects you and whos culture you adopted a problem, being a part of a nation should mean just that. Not just being a part when it suits you is just dishonest, separating and rejoining if and at what times it suits is certainly not democracy.
Spain has clearly stated that it is a unitary state that does not recognise the right of regions or parts of it to declare their independence.
Dec 10th, 2013 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you disagree with this fact or not?
The UK does recognise the right for constituent parts to leave if they wish.
Just because you feel that this should not be a right, does not alter fact.
The UK has allowed Scotland to hold a referendum on independence and Spain refuses to allow Catalunya the same right. So who is right? Spain or the UK?
Gibraltar retains the right to declare independence by the UN according to the UN Charter and the UN's Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.
You can argue around and around in circles for the next several years. However you cannot change fact. The UK allows referendums on independence and Spain doesn't. The UN recognises Gibraltar's right to independence.
You can highlight anomalies and dislikes until the cows come home. But you can't change these facts. No matter how hard you try.
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