MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
How Gibraltar 2002 referendum foundered plan for joint-sovereignty with Spain
It was 2002 when Spain and UK had agreed the broad terms of joint sovereignty over Gibraltar, including inclusion in Schengen and the Customs Union. But the deal unraveled once the then Gibraltar Chief Minister Peter Caruana held the referendum later that year. This is the story as told by former Spanish premier Jose Maria Aznar, according to the Gibraltar Chronicle. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThe world has moved on and I think Spain missed its final chance back then.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar has now slowly started to normalise as a nation with the trappings of statehood being taken on bit by bit.
....yeah that sounds like Blair alrighty....
Dec 05th, 2013 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So as he states there was no real chance of any deal because:
Dec 05th, 2013 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 01 Spain ultimately wanted complete sovereignty!
2 Spain would not allow the people of Gibraltar a say in what was proposed!
3 Spain wanted more than just joint use of the military base on the Rock!
and nothing to do with the referendum !
This nonsense was partly Peter Hain's handiwork. No surprise there. That corrupt sack of shit was emblematic of the Blair years. Worst of a pretty terrible bunch.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 08:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yhe deal agreed included a referendum. The referendum would have ensured self-determination. No sovereignty change can happen without one when you are not bound by treaty to return a territory.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What a pity Hain never got his way, Gibraltar now could have been as prosperous as Andalusia and had a new air terminal like the one in La Lineá
Dec 05th, 2013 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0250 years = Moorish, 200 years = Spanish, 300 years = British ................. do the maths.
Dec 05th, 2013 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Blair was ever an untrustworth bustard ..... only the peoples of Gibralter can decide - the right to self-determination is theirs.
@6 Is that comment supposed to have any basis in fact? Andalusia has a per capita GDP of £8,543.64. Gibraltar's is £27,468. “Andalusia” is the Spanish word for “poverty”. And La Linea doesn't have an air terminal. Largely because it doesn't have an airport. Besides, what point will an air terminal be when Gibraltar closes the border?
Dec 06th, 2013 - 10:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0*Well it doesn´t surprise me that they earn 27,000 pounds especially when they pay no VAT but in Britain people pay 20 percent.Social Security payments in Gib are 120 per month while in Britain National Insurance is levied at 14 per cent of weekly earning above 800 pounds and income tax is 45 percent.
Dec 06th, 2013 - 01:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where hedge Funds worth millions of pounds have been living Britain to Gibraltar where Mr Picardo has promised that income tax will be limited to 30,000 pounds a year no matter how many million s you make.!!
And where a Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi has bought a one million mansion in his own constittuency by using funds from an offshore account in Gibraltar while the normal Brit has had their NHS services slashed,retirement age increased to 68, local libraries closed,where high price of fuel is killing thousands every year from the extreme weather conditions,the national debt at 1.4 trillion pounds,and not forget about the remote gambling operators with British customers who pay no UK gambling taxes............
@8 Conqueror
Dec 06th, 2013 - 02:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you will find “Ann Other” was actually suggesting the opposite.
@9 aussie sunshine
More actual nonsense from you.
What Gibraltar levy in way of taxes is solely up to them, it has no bearing on what the equivalent rate is in the UK or any other country in the world.
As long as they balance their books they can do exactly as they wish.
As the true Spanish supporter that you are, I am assuming that you are not posting just to trash the UK and Gibraltar, check this article.
“Scandals force Spain down global corruption index”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/03/spain-global-corruption-index-political-royal-scandal
@9 Do you think that “aussie” has noticed that Gibraltar isn't Britain? True to UN principles, Gibraltar is able to run itself as it wishes. This is called “self-government”. A loong step from “colonialism” and “imperialism”. And we should remember that, where the United Kingdom is prepared to see its most ignorant and uneducated constituent vote on “independence”, Spain won't allow Catalonia or the Basque country to do the same. Where is colonialism and imperialism? It's in Spain. Aren't Catalonia and the Basque country supposed to be autonomous? “Autonomous” means controlling one's own affairs and governing oneself. “You can be ”autonomous“ as long as you're Spanish”. Much like Gaul was “autonomous” under the Roman Empire. “Go ahead and govern yourself. Just remember who has the legions”. Of course, “aussie” is an argie. Argieland is a federal state. With provinces. Notice that. Provinces. Classic imperial nomenclature. The Roman Empire (starting in Italy and Spain) had provinces. The United States of America has states. Not just names. A guide to thought processes. Not that latinos have many of those. As “aussie” regularly proves. Everybody should be aware that latinos are the world's fart. Disgusting, smelly, useless and an indication of the location of shit. Not to mention that, as “aussie” proves, they can't be easily controlled. BUT, when you kill someone, he voids his bowels and tries to eat the result. I expect argieland to do the same.
Dec 06th, 2013 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0*11Why do you mention Catalonia?? when the post was about Gibraltar you lump of shit!!! self government? yeah! right!! keep paying their up keep while you miserable bastard slide backwards in world affairs. Like Putin said not long ago
Dec 06th, 2013 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ small island no one listens to”...
*10 I prefer to see corrupt politians up front than those who hide in little Gibraltar with their millions stashed away while you shitheads pay the up keep.
@12 aussie sunshine
Dec 06th, 2013 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Such an educated and well thought response - “lump of shit”, “miserable bastard”, “shitheads”.
The UK is not paying anything for the “up keep”.
By the way if they were really upfront would the be corrupt ?
*13 beautiful adjectives..arent they??!!
Dec 06th, 2013 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Tony Blair and then Spanish President Aznar ”
Dec 06th, 2013 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To me that looks exactly like high treason on the British side - but of course Blair deserves a fair trial before he faces the firing squad.
@14
Dec 06th, 2013 - 04:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0only to the uneducated who are throwing their toys out of the pram because the have nothing else left with to debate.
@12 I appreciate you are an uneducated rg but the UK does not pay for Gibraltar's upkeep. People in Gib have one of the highest standards of living in the world because the Government is not corrupt unlike Spain and Argentina.
Dec 06th, 2013 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The trouble with the Spaniards is the same with Argentina,
Dec 06th, 2013 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They live in a parallel universe,
Where the world is split unevenly between them both,
And they are both still claiming each others part..lol
Still,
Cheats never did prosper..lol
.
*17 wake up!! silly girl!! (if you are a female).Gibraltar has one of the highest standard of living because every rich bastard around the world has his/her loot hidden from the tax man while you and the rest of us are kicked left and right to cough up taxes from all directions...while they shit on our faces....WAKE UP!!
Dec 06th, 2013 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12 Squatter Bloke
Dec 07th, 2013 - 01:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are you saying the people of Catalunya do not have the same right to self-determination as the people of Gib?
And then there’s the land rights of the Pindanjara?
But you’re too busy mining that, so you don’t have to pay too much taxes, aren’t you!
Pugol-H
Dec 07th, 2013 - 05:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Aussie sunshine is about as Australian as you are the Queen's knickers.
And if the Pindanjara that you are talking about is the PITJANTJATJARA, then you should perhaps read up on Maralinga and exactly what the British got up to there before accusing Aussies of being too busy mining their land.
Kick as many own-goals as you like!
“Secondly, Spain was not willing to accept self-determination or giving Gibraltarians a referendum on joint-sovereignty, but instead said this would be in a pact bilaterally agreed and the people allowed to hold a referendum on the status of self-government which Gibraltar would have”.
Dec 07th, 2013 - 12:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Honestly what fucking cowards. Basically they knew that the people of Gib wanted nothing to so with this selling out and so decided they would ride roughshod over them. Disgraceful really. Of course there is echoes of the Falklands here. Both land grabs by Spain and Argentina.
The UK should covertly support Catalonia's independence and agree with the Spanish Govt that we will drop this support from them renouncing any claim to Gib.
We should also agitate over the Moroccan territory that the Spaniards hold. Two faced fuckers.
*21 You can say anything youwish about me but in future DO NOT MAKE FUN OF HM QUEEN ELIZABETH!! Remember that eventhough I do not believe that Australia should have a Monarchy.I am a Monarchist at heart and your remarks towards her was not called for!!.
Dec 07th, 2013 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0*22 You know NOTHING of diplomacy!! I suggest you do a little reading to equip that EMPHTY BRAIN you have on your shoulders!! The UK and Spain may not see eye to eye on Gibraltar but they see eye to eye on many other issues.....
*20 PLEASE,PLEASE if you have time readthe Spanish Constitution and you will find out why Cataluña is different to Gibraltar....In reference to the Pitjantjatjara I agree with you!! The aboriginal people have been abused by the white men so long that I don´t know why they have not taken their case to The UN and other international Courts to stop these abuses and get compensation....It is shameful that this is happening in Australia, BLOODY SHAMEFUL!!
@ 23
Dec 07th, 2013 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can't bring myself to type your user i.d. - it's like participating in a farce. If you're going to make references to Maralinga at least do some research on the subject. The Australian government paid $13.5 million, in 1994, to the Aboriginal victims of the nuclear testing in the fifties. And they finally cleaned up the radioactive mess that was left in it's wake. And yes, it an utterly shameful episode in our history.
As far as further compensation goes - you do know who Eddie Mabo is don't you? Native Title? So far Native Title has returned 1,762,843km2 to Aboriginal control. That's an area 3 times the total size of Spain. And there are plenty more claims to come.
Like many non-Australians, and many Australians for that matter, you are spectacularly ignorant about the causes of Aboriginal suffering, but this this isn't the place to discuss the issue. And I doubt you or Pugol-H care anyway.
*24 13.5 million for and an apology by the Australian Government!!!!
Dec 07th, 2013 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0An apology afetr 100,000 aboriginal children were forcefully taken from their parents to assimilate them in white culture and therefore destroy the aboriginal culture...........think about it............imagine the mothers crying in desperation as their children are taken away............forever.........now imagine the anguish of the tribal elders ...knowing that their spirituality will no longer live if not passed onto their children.......can you truly imagine the pain.....now imagine the children....taken from their parents forcefully as if they were cattle being rounded up..yelling from the top of their lungs....knowing they would never see their tribe again....never...13 million was paid for this suffering:
and if that is not enough their land is nuked and made wasteless.
Yes, I do know who Eddie Mobo was and I do know that even after his death racism continued.It wasn´t enough that he died of cancer but his grave was attacked by vandals and a nazi swastika with the word “ abo” written all over it.The pressure was such that he was reburied in Murray Island....
anyway I live you with a track from midnight oil.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejorQVy3m8E
“An apology afetr 100,000 aboriginal children were forcefully taken from their parents to assimilate them in white culture and therefore destroy the aboriginal culture.”
Dec 07th, 2013 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Name 10 children!
Go on, get on the internet and find me 1o actual names of children that were FORCIBLY removed from their parents without PERMISSION. Oh and those 10 children will have to be full blooded Aboriginal because if they are half white then you can't exactly assimilate them to destroy their Aboriginal culture when also have European culture too.
So out of 100,000 find just TEN names.
I bet you can't.
But then again, you have run away from every single challenge ever faced on this forum.
Oh and btw, I'll say what ever I want about my Queen because she is mine and not yours. Though I am not surprised you like here when you look at the alternative trash to is ruling your own country.
TEN names my simple friend.
@25
Dec 08th, 2013 - 03:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0No amount of money is ever going to compensate Aborigines for what they've lost and that official apology in Parliament was the most powerful, and honest, acknowledgment of culpability for The Stolen Generation possible. You should never dismiss the power of symbolism on this issue.
If you are genuinely interested in this subject I suggest you google Rosemary Wanganeen. She is more knowledgeable and eloquent on the subject than any non-Aboriginal person could ever hope to be.
*26 Gosh!! you sound so pathetic!! Trying to deny history, are you?? Why don´t you pick up your lazy arse and travel up north and SPEAK to the tribal leaders and LEARN SOMETHING!!! Instead of making a full of your self on this forum!!
Dec 08th, 2013 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You asked for ten.Here they are:
1: MEMBERS OF THE STOLEN GENERATION:
A) Rhonda Collard
B) Zita Wallace
c) Bill Simon
d) Professor Larissa Dohredt (aboriginal Barrister)
e)Richard Pittman
Due respect to HM Majesty the Queen unblemished reputation and try to be discreet when you make “ silly” jokes on behalf of her name.
Do have a nice week!!
f) Archie Roach (aboriginal singer and song writer)
g) Mary Farrell
h) Alex Kruger
i)Alex Brown
j) Noel Tovey
all names taken from the eb page Members Of The Stolen Generation.
www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/politics/sorry-apology-to-stolen-generations#oc2
All from one page you say?
Dec 08th, 2013 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dig deeper sunshine. I know you can!
“with Tony Blair there was a sense that UK and Spain could have very strong and productive relations if the Gibraltar issue could be resolved.”
Dec 08th, 2013 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Peace in our Time' from Chamberlain didn't work with Hitler.
Peace in our Time over Argentina by the Foreigner's Office didn't work in 1982, with' I'll fight to the last drop of your blood' Galteiri.
Blair's sell out was never going to work either with Spain.
*30 are you a fortune teller??!! Or can you see things in the future!! Hahahaha
Dec 09th, 2013 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The obvious is the obvious.
Dec 14th, 2013 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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