MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Gibraltar new governor ratifies UK full support, self determination and dialogue with Spain
In previous years the arrival to Gibraltar of a new Governor by sea was part of the pageantry and tradition the Rock had come to expect - but sailing in on flagship HMS Bulwark after a sovereignty patrol of British waters, Lieutenant General Sir James Dutton captured Gibraltarians hearts and souls. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rules“self-determination certainly rules here.”
Dec 09th, 2013 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0“...because I'm worth.”
Dec 09th, 2013 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0SHOCKING TO HEAR that a Neil Phillips fom Rugeley, Strafforshire was arrested,finget printed,his DNA taken and his computer confiscated for MAKING A JOKE ABOUT MANDELA ON LINE!!! IS THIS A POLICE STATE OR WHAT!!?? This should bring out the British public out in masses to protest against this intrusion into freedom of speech!!
Dec 09th, 2013 - 01:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@3 finget? sounds painful
Dec 09th, 2013 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@3
Dec 09th, 2013 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Excellent find Fake Tan. But have to say you're stating the obvious - again!
The UK is widely known as a corrupt police state were suppression and repression of civil liberties are an everyday occurrence. Only New Zealand and Oz have a worse record I believe.
A.S. as ever selective reporting of a story.
Dec 09th, 2013 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The full story below. A lot more than a couple of jokes.
And remember this is the mail, hardly a fan of NM so any story that shows him in a bad light is one they will run with.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520662/Neil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html
So he was arrested interviewed and released. Unlike certain countries not tied up and released from a plan at 10,000 ft without a parachute.
Freedom of speech is great, but sometimes lines are crossed, free speech does not include hate speech. For instance certain right wing American shock-jocks and members of the nation of Islam have been refused visas to visit this country. They complain about this. But as a sovereign state we are allowed to refuse entry to anyone we choose.
*4 I hope you never ger FINGERT!! HAHHAHAHA
Dec 09th, 2013 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0*6 “ arrested and released” NO!! arrested,detained 8 hours,his computers taken away and his DNA taken....
The governor must feel right at home in a country that speaks English, which has the queen as head of state and gstq as its anthem and sterling as its currency and the British forces as its military.
Dec 09th, 2013 - 11:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good heavens its sunny today in Surrey....whats that old boy....Gibraltar?? Thought some foreign type rascal had spiked my tea.
oh but no, he's in a “different” country apparently.
Out of the hands of GB, nope, nothing to do with Britons whatsoever. Separate country altogether, guard, rule, establish, control ...thats beside the point.
Well yeah its ours, but no we're not responsible for it, except we are, well kinda. Self determination for the British people ... except these ones here, keep them apart from those ones, and those ones over there separate from these ones. That way its still ours....but not really.
Vestige
Dec 09th, 2013 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The governor must feel right at home in a country that speaks English, which has the queen as head of state and gstq as its anthem and sterling as its currency and the British forces as its military.”
Thank you for calling Gibraltar a COUNTRY.
I imagine he does feel right at home. Gibraltar doesn't sound too Spanish after what you just said, so glad you finally realised that it isn't Spanish. Why is sounds positively BRITISH after your last post.
Probably why its people want to remain British and not become Spanish.
Sometimes people make all your arguments for you.
As far as I am aware it is Spain that is doesn't believe in self determination for Gibraltar. Nor for Catalonia.
So does Gibraltar deserver self determination or not.... bet you can't answer!
You're right... I can't.
Dec 10th, 2013 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Its a country which isn't a country but kind of is, yeah but not really.
Thats the set-up.
Even the UK have a say in its independence or not.
lol. Complete con job.
A bit of honest self determination wouldn't go amiss, but we couldn't have England, a people with the queen, sterling, British forces, and gstq, making decisions for a country with the queen, sterling, British forces, and gstq.
Even if they did establish it, has always housed its head of state, prints its money and guards it and negotiates on its behalf.
So I guess its a 'yes' to your question after all, Gibraltar should have as much self determination as Rhyl or Rawtenstall or any other GB town, no more, no less.
Why would a Gibraltarian object to that hmmm.
They believe in honest self determination dont they.
Whats to fear from the people who protect them.
Surely they dont fear the GB public saying 'ah hang on this is BS'.
Maybe theres another reason.... bet you can't answer!
Aaah Vestige you are a joy to watch!
Dec 10th, 2013 - 01:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0So Gibraltar is “a country which isn't a country but kind of is, yeah but not really.”
So now you actually contradict yourself. You really do half the job for me.
The rest of you post degenerates a bit and was hard to follow for a while but then there was this:
“So I guess its a 'yes' to your question after all, Gibraltar should have as much self determination as Rhyl or Rawtenstall or any other GB town, no more, no less.”
So now it does have a right to self determination but with limitations. Interesting. So it is a country but not a country and now should be treated as a town.
Now I had a look at Rhyl and Rawtenstall and as far as I can see they don't have their own constitutions nor do they have a Chief Minister let alone a Governor.
So I guess Gibraltar isn't a town like Rhyl and Rawtenstall. Luckily for Gibraltar more intelligent people are concerned with this matter. Which is why the United Nations accepts that Gibraltar has the right to self determination and towns such as Rhyl and Rawtenstall don't.
Perhaps it was just luck or perhaps it was just foresight that the UK listed Gibraltar as a non-self governing territory with the UN, thereby ensuring and guaranteeing it had a distinct and seperate legal identity within international law.
Not sure what I can't answer because there was no actual question. Nor was there an actual coherent idea that I could agree or disagree with.
But perhaps this will answer. No Rhyl and Rawtenstall do not have the right to self determination in British or international law. Gibraltar does have the right in both.
@11
Dec 10th, 2013 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0You should excuse Vestige. It's difficult enough for him already when he tries to colour in the world map in his colouring book and he has to keep changing crayon, but then we have to confuse him further with a whole bunch of people identifying as British that all have different constitutional arrangements.
@ HansNiesund
Dec 10th, 2013 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are right. There is two things that seem to confuse non-Brits and non-Aussies no end.
That Britain is a collection of nations and that these nations have different constitutional arrangements with London and with the Queen.
So don't even try to explain how Australia's constitutional setup with our own Queen shared and yet independent of the British Queen.
And yet it all works. And works well.
@Vestige
Dec 10th, 2013 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Rawtenstall has a steam railway - but no border guards or national football team. Whereas Gibraltar is a BOT, and thus has the right to self-determination as confirmed on numerous occasions by the UN and ICJ.
On the upside for Rawtenstall though, at least it isn't being constantly bullied by its neighbour - Ramsbottom (probably wise with a name like that).
mmmm yes, fascinating insights into how the 'part of the country but not really' mechanism works, when it started functioning, how its backed by law. All news of course.
Dec 10th, 2013 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course no reference to how very dishonest it is.
Based on convenient deniability. Circumventing diplomacy and democracy.
Not so for poor Rawtenstall though, Spain can never have an issue with Rawtenstall, because Rawtenstall is part of UK.
That is to say, it has the UK head of state, uses the UK currency, sings the UK anthem, has the UK military, has the UK culture, uses UK government. If Rawtenstall with its ~25,000 people should by some strange situation have dealings with Spain then its London which takes care of that. Probably because Rawtenstall is an integral part of the UK in every single way, enjoys the benefits of being part of the UK and is subject to the democratic vote as is every other place fulfilling these criteria.
well....except certain places, places which also get all those benefits and fulfill all those exact same criteria cultural and governmental, places which are identical (in major terms) to other UK towns. Those places somehow aren't a part of the UK, but only when necessary.
No no, UK cant do anything about blocks or whatever thats nothing to do with UK you'll have to ask the locals.
Tune changes VERY quickly when a border closes for 5 or 6 hours though doesn't it. Suddenly -the rest of the UK- is very involved.
Is this not what happens ?
If you were to design a shifty diplomatic system that lets you own something when convenient and wash your hands of it when necessary, would it look like this.
(bring on the pejoratives for that one, quick - deflect to C+M)
(Then of course is the tax-haven aspect for many of the political/business owning classes. Incentive to have a nice cheap little reserved place thats part of the UK but not really, keep it out of the hands of the masses)
@Vestige
Dec 10th, 2013 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You seem to be very hung up on this “part of a country but not really” thing. There are a number of such territories around the world, they are perfectly legal and normal. Do you have a problem with the Faroes for example? The BOTs can become independent or change who they are associated and we can't stop them and that is the primary difference between them and Rawtenstall. If they feel we are doing something not in their interest then they have options. In addition, we have specific responsibilities for them that we can't get out of (which is why we are in such a mess over the Chagos). If Spain or Argentina were enticing possibilities for Association for two of our BOTs then presumably the people of Gibraltar and the Falklands would be closely examining those possibilities. That they aren't, is entirely the fault of Spain and Argentina. That the UN/ICJ has developed laws to protect the small and weak from the bullying neighbour or the oppressive administrator is surely a good thing? Why does a territory HAVE to be part of a country, why not be a territory associated with another country. If that's what the people want then why does that offend you so much?
@10, 15 But Gibraltar isn't a “town”. It's a country. So why can't it have the same self-determination as Guernsey, Jersey, Alderney, Sark and the Isle of Man? Shame that, isn't it? Always a way to show how pragmatically the UK operates, whilst still sticking with its principles, but always doing its best for the people concerned. Meanwhile, as the democratic UK allows Scotland to have a referendum on independence, autocratic, dictatorial Spain won't allow the same for Catalonia. And whilst Scotland joined the Union of its own free will, Catalonia was stolen. Don't bother about Gibraltar until you've explained why undemocratic Spain won't let its most wealthy “autonomous territory” have a referendum. What's that word? “Autonomous”. doesn't that mean “self-governing”. Gibraltar's had a couple of referendums. All by themselves. The UK accepted the results. Why won't Spain “allow” that for Catalonia? And the Basque country. Admit it. Spain is afraid. It's useless as a unified state. It's got a crap “government”. And, of course, Gibraltar shows how a small country can exist and prosper. Hang on. Catalonia and the Basque Country are autonomous. But not reaaally that autonomous. They can do what they like as long as they do as they are told, right?
Dec 10th, 2013 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is the difference between a democracy that believes in freedom, rights, and self determination,
Dec 10th, 2013 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And a dictatorship in tatters, who firmly believe in brain washing, corruption, keeping from the people the truth,
Spain’s deluded dreams may well push the UK out of Europe,
Cause the brake up of Spain into 3 or 4 countries,
Tear Europe apart, just so she can get her own way,
And turn Gibraltar into an armed garrison,
Still,
When nations fall, nations fall,
Just a shame they try to drag the rest with them.
Just my opinion..
.
I think he is hung up on the UK designing and operating a constitutional system that upsets his centralised sensibilities.
Dec 10th, 2013 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK, EU, Spain and the UN all recognise that the Gibraltar is a territory of the UK. Just because it is set up to give advantage to Gibraltar doesn't change that it exists.
Perhaps Gibraltar set up has evolved over centuries predominantly in repines to the Spanish. So both Gibraltar and Spain are reaping what Spain has sown. Back luck for Spain that that advantages Gibraltar.
Vestige is doing his best to show that Gibraltar is a constitutional anomaly within the UK. But he can't, because the UK is full of constitutional anomalies. With 2 kingdoms, a principality, a province, several crown dependencies, BOTs and then there is the Commonwealth Realm.
The UK is not some centralised state and that works perfectly for everyone. Including Gibraltar. Whenever people have a choice to stay or leave or change it, they either leave or stay.
And in this case,
Dec 10th, 2013 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar has voted to stay with us..
RedRow “The BOTs can become independent or change who they are associated and we can't stop them and that is the primary difference between them and Rawtenstall.”
Dec 10th, 2013 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not so. The British Government has ruled out both the independence of Gibraltar and its integration into the United Kingdom.
“But he can't, because the UK is full of constitutional anomalies” - you've got that right.
Whatever happened to having 1 country with 1 man having 1 vote
Democratic “anomalies” might be a better term.
Tell me - if Spain drove through the fence tomorrow who'd come running to the rescue? Wheres Gibraltars head of state?
Your answer....UK......and thats the name of the country to which Gibraltar (de facto) belongs. You know the place that says Gibraltar can't go independent.
“Bad luck for Spain that that advantages Gibraltar”.
Oh absolutely, who do you fancy for the next elections. Hope you're voting for the side Rajoy wants in.
All he need do is tighten or loosen the border hours on Gib or deny airspace, congestion charge lalinea etc etc to produce a Savior or a weakling PM.
Do this at the right time and you can swing the entire GB electorate.
Apparently Cameron is a bit of a weakling these days from what I read.
Must not have paid up.
@21
Dec 10th, 2013 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK has an official position that takes account of Utrecht, but if Gibraltar actually declared Independence then could the UK stop them? According to the UN/ICJ they have the right to self-determination. If Gibraltar had to drag the UK to the ICJ to get its independence how do you think we'd look? Since there is no prospect of UDI then the point is moot.
Very good, but why should that even be necessary if its a real country.
Dec 10th, 2013 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its a screwy, shambolic system, gerrymandered left right and center, full of democratic “anomalies”.
@21
Dec 10th, 2013 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe there's hope for you yet. You've managed to figure out that what's called a British Overseas Territory is regarded as British Territory, Overseas, and will be defended as British Territory if attacked. What's in a name, huh? Glad we've cleared that up at least.
You're also right that in the 70s the British government ruled out integration of Gibraltar into the UK. Interestingly enough, this was because the then powers that be felt the time was ripe to coax Gibraltar into some kind of arrangement with post-Franco Spain. This kind of gives the lie to your usual contention that the UK holds onto its BOTs for reasons of imperial nostalgia.
But the more interesting aspect is that Spain was completely unable to move its agenda forward, even when a UK government was willing to support it. Barely a Gibraltarian to be found anywhere in favour. And lo, thirty years of Spanish democracy, the same thing plays out the same way all over again with the Blair government.
A reasonable person might thereby conclude that it is the Gibraltarians who are rejecting Spain rather than the dastardly UK with all its colonial subterfuges, imperial nostalgia, and plethora of bespoke constitutional arrangements. But why exactly are the Gibraltarians so resolute in their rejection of Spain? Could it have something to do with three hundred years of being jerked around and vilified at every opportunity?
And given that it hasn't worked before, why would this jerk around strategy suddenly start to bear fruit now?
Surely it couldn't be that the objective here is really just to stoke tension rather than resolve it?
Poor Vestige is reduced to whining that the UK is just not set up right. If only it was set up differently then....... well then what? I'm unsure but that doesn't stop him from trying desperately to highlight that the UK is full of inconsistent constitutional arrangements.
Dec 11th, 2013 - 06:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0To the benefit of Gibraltar and not Spain it would seem.
As for his dreams of Spain somehow “tighten or loosen the border hours on Gib or deny airspace, congestion charge lalinea etc etc to produce a Savior or a weakling PM.”
Yeah, how is that sort of policy working out AFTER 300 years? Spain any closer to what it desires? NOPE!
Bring on the next Spanish tantrum it will have the exact same effect as every single tantrum has for the past 300 years; that is Gibraltar is British and not Spanish.
@Redrow
Good point. You forgot to add that the UK government explicitly recognises that HM Government of Gibraltar does NOT share the same opinion and view regarding the Treaty of Utrecht.
And considering the UN recognises Gibraltar's right to independence; the UK and/or Spain would have no chance of winning at the ICJ.
Good luck to ALL students protesting today all over The UK against Police brutality!!
Dec 11th, 2013 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0yet he conveniently forgets the deaths of poor argy citizens,
Dec 11th, 2013 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0still,
changing the subject is now common amongst argy bloggers...
@21
Dec 14th, 2013 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Not so. The British Government has ruled out both the independence of Gibraltar”
If the people of Gibraltar vote for Independence there is jack squit the UK could do to prevent it.
The UK would not resist it as they are sensible enough to know that supporting any bid by Gibraltar for independence would ensure that a friendly relationship continued, and Gibraltar would be welcomed into the Commonwealth.
The UK have not prevented Scotland from gaining independence if the Scots vote for it.
They certainly have not ruled out Gibraltarian independence-the people have not asked for it so as to prevent being bullied by Spain.
Anglo - Im not whining, Gibraltar could paint itself neon green and become Chinese overnight - it would have zero bearing on my life.
Dec 16th, 2013 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Its the people at the border that are whining. Boo hoo - its hot and im stuck waiting for four hours. waaaahhh.
Good of Hans to point out Britain trying to get rid of the place in the 70's (just like with the Malvinas), unfortunately for Britain Spain now has a lever on British politics, in exchange for 7 sq km's that can be easily manipulated when needed by simply denying access.
Oh no Prime minister your ratings have tumbled, its down the the edge, its getting near election time... better be nice to Spain or the border gets closed for some random reason, you look like a powerless sissy and the opposition get in.
@29
Dec 16th, 2013 - 04:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0By this hypothesis, Spain has had a means of manipulating British politics at will for about 300 years, yet has done remarkably little with it. And where do you get the idea that Spanish bilious border antics have any bearing on the Prime Minister's popularity?
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