MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Brazil again delays fighter jet contract; France rapidly losing ground in the bid
France will lose out in its bid to win a multi-billion-dollar fighter jet contract with Brazil, the Folha de Sao Paulo daily reported over the week-end. It said France’s 4 billion dollars proposal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, from a consortium led by French giant Dassault, will be shot down for cost reason. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesSmart move Brazil, and don't worry, BOEING and the obama administration are smiling. They will lower the price for you and is willing to give you everything you want.
Dec 16th, 2013 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Except that the US spying fiasco does not help their probabilities to being chosen.
Dec 16th, 2013 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the French, it seems have already lost it,
Dec 16th, 2013 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so the Americans may be in the driving seat,
yet brazil has a spying problem with the Americans,
problems decisions and more problems ,
still
they could always be daring and buy the Euro fighter....lol
Fido dildo.......Obama has no say on Boeing pricing maneuvers. Let's track you words:
Dec 16th, 2013 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ They will lower the price for you and is willing to give you everything you want.”
Let's see what they buy as they get closer to the unprepared World Cup.
@ 2 Troneas
Dec 16th, 2013 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We are talking money here and Brazil would be stupid to blow out the Americans because of something that they WISHED they could do.
Do you really think the new, much heralded, satellite will be benign?
However, Hollande has also fucked the French economy big-time and may well undercut the Yanks just to keep something in production in France itself.
But nothing will happen until after Dilma gets back in and if the Brazilian football team WIN the WC (I do like that) then everything will be forgotten about how much money was spent and she will be seen as the maker of modern Brazil.
If she loses then ALL bets are off and they may be joining The Dark Country in part swaps. Now wouldn’t that be funny?
Watching a defence program today, abt future military,
Dec 16th, 2013 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It was stated, that you may have the biggest Army, or navy , or even the biggest air force,
But without information, and intelligence,
You have in fact, nothing,
Brazil will learn very quickly,
For it is better to spy on your enemy,
Than your enemies spying on you…lol.
.
@6. grow up the US wasn't spying on the brazilian military (or the spanish, chilean, german, etc.).
Dec 16th, 2013 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0they were spying to get an edge in business, technology, know-how, politics...
and the US seems to have a habit of creating enemies. what is germany, chile or brazil a threat to them? upset them enough by spying on them and they could very well be added to the list of many countries who view them unfavourably - so that they can keep victimising themselves like they like to do: “the world is out to destroy our democracy and democratic values, blah, blah, blah, blah!”
7 Troneas
Dec 16th, 2013 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0did one say they were,
you said===
the US wasn't spying on the Brazilian military (or the Spanish, Chilean, German, etc.).
did you read it properly ..............
The US and most of the modern world have been spying on each other for centuries,
unless you know something different,
please tell, it may be interesting..
@ 8 Briton
Dec 16th, 2013 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“please tell, it may be interesting..”
You are a fantastic optimist! :o)
@8. it was implied in your message that the spying was directed at the military since it was a “defense programme” you were watching. you then suggested that a big military alone will not be of help against “enemies”.
Dec 16th, 2013 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so yes in essence you not only implied but defended the idea that they were spying to get an edge in warfare.
as for “spying on each other for centuries”. yes its true. its also true that international conventions frown upon it and many bilateral treaties prohibit it. it is not a friendly gesture to say the least.
following your line of thought i could defend the argentinean military invasion on Malvinas as: “countries have been invading territories for centuries.” Had Argentina's military killed all the inhabitants before the war began I could have also defended it as: “countries have massacred civilian population in the past if it suited their needs”.
it doesn't make it right, does it?
@9. do you have something to add to the conversation?
Hows this for a thought? My Merc tells me everything about my car, sensors for everything, even tells me servicing is due on such a date,now how about if a country sells modern fighters to a third world country but a few years down the road they end up fighting each other. Do you not think it feasible that the country that sold those fighters might have the solfware installed to perhaps switch the engines off of the enemies fighters. I would , don't know about you lot.
Dec 16th, 2013 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@11. hence why the brazilians insist on purchasing the technology as well as the planes.
Dec 16th, 2013 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0they will not consider any proposal that does not include the transfer of technology in the package.
Of course Dilma's reaction has nothing to do with the French attitude towards subsidized agricultural market and EU's “needing more time”...
Dec 16th, 2013 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12
Dec 17th, 2013 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Brazil could buy Pampers off Argentina to show solidarity and support their South American brothers.
@14. they already produce the super tucano for their training and light surveillance aircraft needs.
Dec 17th, 2013 - 01:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0but i read there are projects to unite efforts for a future plane.
France may, or may not be out of the picture. And others may come in.
Dec 17th, 2013 - 06:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0We set our own requirements, timetable, and not some other country. Look at this from our perspective: With so many choices, why the rush ?
At what point in time did latinos, particularly those in latam, reach a level of intelligence where they could be trusted with anything more advanced than bows and arrows? That's right. Not yet. Notice how certain latam “countries” have purchased Soviet, Russian, even Chinese, aircraft. It's because the latams were infomed that all the aircraft purchase would have “drop” capability. The “top secret”, only to be revealed after the money was received, was that the “drop” capability related to when the wings would fall off!
Dec 17th, 2013 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@15 The “Super Tucano”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Tucano Not quite up to the standard of a WW2 Hurricane!
You think the USA is stealing technology from Brazil?
Dec 17th, 2013 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bahahahaha
retard
If the very best plane of the lot is losing ground, it is only because of plain low level
Dec 17th, 2013 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0politics! Merci beaucoup,
Philippe
@ 10 Troneas
Dec 17th, 2013 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“@9. do you have something to add to the conversation?”
No, you are failing admirably: keep digging the hole.
(CLUE: you are missing the points)
Increasing bilateral trade.
Dec 17th, 2013 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rousseff’s predecessor, Lula da Silva, had said in 2009 that Brazil would plump for the Rafale.
The issue is seemingly price.
Fortunately there are many finance options available to both governments.
Im sure France and Brazil can find the right terms of payment when it comes to a billion euro contract, especially in the context of “increasing bilateral trade”
There were setbacks in the sale of 126 rafale to India, but it got there in the end. As will this deal. Good choice Brazil.
And if we didn't have enough problems to be concerned with, enter the Snowden offer for asylum to further complicate events.
Dec 17th, 2013 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0sadly invading does not work in the modern world,
Dec 17th, 2013 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ya cant keep harking on the past,
you either believe in democracy, or you don't,
full stop ,
Respect to that, Briton
Dec 17th, 2013 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But why “sadly”?
it was in reply to [10]
Dec 17th, 2013 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but it interprets not to well,
perhaps, aggressive invading's by dictatorships, does not work,
thanks for pointing it out..
Well, I can only agree with your inicial statement, when you go selective mode I start thinking you're in for selective democracy... Whatever that translates into...
Dec 17th, 2013 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ha ha, thanks,
Dec 17th, 2013 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I try, lol
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A Look at the Brazilian Navy
Think Defence
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/12/look-brazilian-navy/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ThinkDefence+%28Think+Defence%29
Interesting article on Brazil’s navy,
As the Brazilians are incapable of designing and producing a 5th generation c0mbat aircraft, they hope to buy the technology cheaply from France. The trouble is that the will not pay the price.
Dec 18th, 2013 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Does
Dec 18th, 2013 - 11:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0'buying the technology'
imply
'build in Brasil, subsequently'
capability?
#29
Dec 18th, 2013 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It means that they will try to leap- frog their design capabilities by receiving technology ahead of their current knowledge. They would hope to jump the technology gap this way bringing them nearer to producing a modern combat aircraft.
I am reasonably sure that they could assemble the aircraft from parts supplied as they have the facility for “panel beating” and assembly.
If you take Japan as an example. Their Mitsubishi F.1. was an improved version of the Jaguar, The F2 was a development of the F16
Looking at China's aircraft, they are in the main, reverse engineering copies of Russian aircraft. Their “stealth technology” has obviously been lifted from the Americans...probably by espionage.
Buying technology is cheaper than doing your own research and development as you know you will have a product that works.
I am not denigrating Brazil's future in technology but it is a quantum leap from producing airliners to aircraft in the Rafales class. A modern fighter takes about 10 years from development to initial service.
Many emerging countries have tried indigenous aircraft builds and failed at huge financial costs.
@ 30 Clyde15
Dec 18th, 2013 - 05:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What you say has obvious merits except reverse engineering risks building in the problems as well!
There are many, many examples where that has happened and resulted in real problems.
The Han need Russia simply because they cannot design and build a functioning jet engine, even after 10 years of reverse engineering the engines on their Russian fighters – the ones that always front a “Chinese Copy”.
Brazil is buying and doing business with SAAB (Sweden).
Dec 18th, 2013 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From Brazil Portal:
http://www.brasil.gov.br/defesa-e-seguranca/2013/12/decisao-sobre-compra-de-avioes-caca-sai-nesta-tarde
Confirmed in Swedish media, they didn't expect to get the order but say they got it because of USA spying and France trade restricting...
Dec 18th, 2013 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The French: Trade restricting was not an issue, but were to expensive..
Dec 19th, 2013 - 01:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0For the US, the NSA debacle continues:
NSA Spying Crushes US Tech Companies in Emerging Markets (“An Industry Phenomenon,” Says Cisco’s Chambers)
Link: http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2013/11/14/nsa-spying-crushes-us-tech-companies-in-emerging-markets-an.html
From what I understand why Brazil has chosen Jas Gripen E model is because it's made for defence, good price, full transfer of technology, also code word for outsourcing jobs: Mr Lennart Sindahl, President Saab Aeronautics on CNBC USA: The JAS Gripen aircraft that can now be delivered to Brazil will also be assembled in Brazil, Sao Jose dos Campos, State of Sao Paulo.
It's true.
Dec 19th, 2013 - 03:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Swedish Griffen or Gripen was chosen, and the selection was a surprise to both SAAB and the AF Chief of Staff.
Well done SAAB.
Dec 19th, 2013 - 09:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0This will give SAAB etc the time and right to burrow deep into the industrial heartland of Brasil and expand its allied industries - especially applied 'intellectual'.
This is, potentially, much more than a few planes.
With sensitive management and good faith, Sweden could become 'big in Brasil' ... but it will have to 'play with a straight bat', be resistant to endemic corruptions, and have support at the TOP of government in this respect.
This will be a big ask, as - arguably - no other country has ever disengaged defence contracts from corruption; but Dilma and her successor could make this the cause celebre to change the paradigm for Brasil.
While most combat aircraft used by the Royal Swedish Air Force (RSAF) were designed and manufactured in Sweden and with the exception of surplus aircraft, only delivered of to RSAF, the JAS 39 Gripen multi-role aircraft is different. Gripen aircraft being delivered to the RSAF are partly manufactured by BAe and SAAB, with both compagnies 'arm in arm' marketing it abroad. This paper describes the background to and the development of the SAAB-BAe Gripen joint venture and raises a few issues involved in Europe's 'globalisation' of national military-industry activities.
Dec 20th, 2013 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The above was taken from an article on co-operation between SAAB and Bae.
No modern aircraft has a totally indigenous build with the probable exception of aircraft from the “Skunk works” and Russian equivalents.
The Gripen is a good aircraft and should fit Brazil's requirements admirably.
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