MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Catalonia lawmakers have asked Madrid for a referendum on the region's future
Lawmakers from the Spanish region of Catalonia voted to seek a referendum on breaking away from Spain on Thursday, setting themselves up for a battle with an implacably opposed central government in Madrid. The Catalan Parliament in Barcelona voted 87 to 43, with 3 abstentions, to send a petition to the national parliament seeking the power to call a popular vote on the region’s future. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesWhere does it end though...I would imagine France will not be forthcoming with support, as part of Catalonia is in France, and a large population of Catalans reside there....
Jan 18th, 2014 - 10:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Would an Independent Catalonia then pressure France for the historic Catalan region...?
It's difficult to see how Rajoy can continue to oppose a referendum and retain any democratic credibility. How can you oppose the wishes of 16% of the population and be democratic. And we should recall that Spain is composed of “autonomous communities”. Spain has 17 “autonomous communities” and 2 “autonomous cities”. And how “autonomous” are you when one guy at the centre says “You're not doing that”. Opposing it on “constitutional” grounds is just laughable. A constitution is a set of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is governed. Important word there, “governed”. Not “ruled”. “Government ” is an organisation entrusted with running a state for the benefit of its people and in accordance, so far as is possible, with their wishes. When the “constitution” no longer suits, you change it. Rajoy and his PP are actually running is a fascist dictatorship. This is unsurprising as it was founded by Manuel Fraga Inbarne, a member of Franco's government. Reading its history is telling. The Spanish people were “disenchanted” with Francoism. No kidding! Inbarne thought he could move gradually to democracy. He quickly got disabused. His “People's Alliance” failed dismally. And so the process began to make the party more palatable. And where did Rajoy start his political career? In the People's Alliance. So he's one of the “old school”. Let's make no mistake. Rajoy is a fascist. He doesn't believe in “democracy”. And he's proving it every day.With Gibraltar and with Catalonia.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 10:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Spanish speaking people everywhere oppose self-determination and democracy, neither of which have ever been concepts they really understand or are comfortable with.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 11:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0the catalans, basques and scots have the guts to be independent countries.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the falklanders and llanitos on the other hand...well, they are just parasites.
@4
Jan 18th, 2014 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't thing Falkland Islanders are borrowing money, can Argentina or Spain say the same ? Who are the parasites?
Oh, enjoy your next few months anticipation of Scottish independence, it will be short lived, but I will share your enjoyment of the break up of Spain.
the break up of “great” britain seems to be a lot closer than the spanish.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 12:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0now, what is going to happen with gibraltar when the uk leaves the e.u. and spain closes the gate?
well, no more queues, i guess
@6 Paul
Jan 18th, 2014 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And if the polls are right and Scotland votes no then the UK remains as it is for another few decades at least. As for the UK leaving the EU that won't happen either. UKIP splitting the vote will ensure that the Conservatives don't get a majority, therefore no in-out referendum.
And as for putting Great in speech-marks, I presume than means you don't know where the term comes from?
7
Jan 18th, 2014 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UKIP are spilling their vote with the Conservatives to ensure the Conservatives get in.....(see UKIP vote swap)...
Brittany = Little Britain
Britain = Great Britain
“Several factors play into his hands.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”An incipient economic recovery could take off“
Only if the economy were a pig fitted with wings.
”Trouble down“ T'Mill” for poor old Rajoy”.
Ha, ha, ha.
Well, we shall see if the “territorial integrity overrules self-determination” argument wins or not, both in Spain and more importantly in the EU.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The question should be who can make Spain agree.....
Jan 18th, 2014 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0...answer...no one.
The UK didn't have to allow Scotland to have a referendum....
Even if the result was a Yes vote, this does not automatically mean they are allowed to become Independent. It is then for the UK Govt to decide and then pass laws in the parliament to allow them to do so.
Parliament could say no...
The Queen could probably intervene using the royal prerogative...
The break up of “great” Britain seems to be a lot closer than the Spanish.
Jan 18th, 2014 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now
Amazing isn’t it, they all think Great Britain is finished,
Well,
Very soon we will put these dreams to sleep,
The trouble with guessers and predictors,
Is they never stop,
What happens will happen,
But may I suggest that one should think twice,
If one thinks what is left behind, are merely leftovers,
One should re-read ones history
For many surprises are yet to come.
.
@4paulcedron
Jan 18th, 2014 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“well, they are just parasites”
For your information, unlike predators, parasites don't kill their hosts. Generally we all live off the land. Why are some people parasites and others aren't? Presumably your point is that the Argentinians are freedom loving, ecological, peace loving, etc. In fact what is an Argentinian, but someone who has removed the Indian. Thats a Predator.
13 Alan
Jan 19th, 2014 - 04:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0hear hear !!!
Nicely put!!
11 A_Voice (#)
Jan 19th, 2014 - 09:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Jan 18th, 2014 - 07:20 pm
This is only true in the mind of a totalitarian despot, in free, progressive societies people decide what they want for themselves, any other approach is counter productive.
For instance, if Spain were to just let Catalonia get on with things then the relationship between the two countries would be far more positive.
I don't know what is going to happen in September, the polls suggest that the Yes vote are up against it but that doesn't really tell us anything. One thing I do know though is that Alex Salmond and the SNP have produced a 'cake and eat it' manifesto for Scottish Independence and they simply won't get everything they want. They want joint control of the pound with the Bank of England as the lender of last resort, they want to stay in the EU, they still want to build Principle combat vessels for the Royal Navy (Portsmouth isn't shut yet). There is a lot that doesn't tally up and I've only scratched the surface. I mean how does full membership of the EU equate to any kind of political independence? How does having the BoE as the underwriter of the Scottish economy equate to financial independence? And why oh why does Alex Salmond scoff and insult Eurosceptics in England? Does he think that Scots are alone in deserving a say in their future and that the English should just put up and shut up?
Also Scots arguably have more power and influence in the UK than do the English but maybe that's got nothing to do with it.
It isn't a question of whether or not Scotland can go independent because clearly they can. The question is whether or not it is the very best option for Scotland. It makes no difference to the rest of the UK in absolute terms. What is clear is that their right to self determination is upheld and respected. Why can't Spain follow that principle with Catalonia, Gibraltar, the Basque region? Do they know how backward and dirty it makes them look? Do they realise that the hard line approach doesn't work?
@4 I would say that it's difficult to see how you reach your “conclusions”. But then I assume that you went, or are going, through the argie “education” system. I use the term “education” very loosely. Perhaps I could mention some facts. What the Catalans and Basques have is questionable. For all I know they might have worms. Scots, on the other hand, are a grouping I know a few things about. Recent poll results indicate that less than 30% of Scots favour independence. This confirms that Scots have finally decided to “understand” the economic realities of independence. And that Scots are tight. Meanwhile 45% have learned not to look through their sporrans and will vote against independence. Turning to the Falklanders, it's difficult, blessed with a normal amount of intelligence for a human, to understand “parasite”. They don't directly leech any money from the UK. A lot of incompetent idiots point to the military garrison. But the UK put it there! No doubt, if there was no danger, the UK could withdraw it. The problem is that there's still a danger of nearby natives paddling over in their canoes and shooting arrows. This is inconvenient and so a capability must be kept to teach them how we can transport matter. Considering how much Gibraltar contributes to the economy of the Campo de Gibraltar, it is more the case that the Campo is a parasite on Gibraltar. As just one example, Gibraltar gives around 10,000 spaniards jobs. You can get more details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Gibraltar
Jan 19th, 2014 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0@6 But it isn't. Most Scots have now (a) found their minds, (b) understood what they are for and (c) recognised that the terms “power-mad incompetent” and “Salmond” are synonomous. What happens when the UK leaves the EU is that the UK suddenly gets much richer. Then the UK tells spain that it's had enough and the next “incident” will see the British Army creating a new artillery range across the Bay of GIBRALTAR, RAF - bomb and missile range, Navy - larger range.
All the nationalists are sticking their necks out too far for their comfort!!
Jan 19th, 2014 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@11:
Jan 19th, 2014 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Since self-determination is a NATURAL right, it is not for London to decide whether or not Scotland should be independent. Maybe this idea is too complex for your brain to process, but you would make the world a better place if you gave it an honest try. Top-down approaches to sovereignty belong in the past.
18
Jan 19th, 2014 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's a question of law.....the UN can say what it wants, but have no means to enforce, should a country wish to ignore a request...as per that particular country's constitution....
An ideal is not a right....
@19:
Jan 19th, 2014 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are dead wrong, but don't give up. Maybe you can grasp the idea that natural rights are not identical to legal rights through an analogy: a red hat does not stop being red when a government decrees that it is green.
the principle (seccssion) itself is one of disintegration, and upon which
Jan 19th, 2014 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0no government can endure......”
Message to congress in special session July4 1861:
Abraham Lincoln.
@21:
Jan 20th, 2014 - 12:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0That is not true. A government which does its job has nothing to fear from the recognition of the principle of self-determination. As to Abraham Lincoln's predicament, we should keep in mind that there were at least THREE different groups in it: not just Yankees and Confederates but also... slaves. The principle of self-determination does NOT entail the “right” of the members of a majority of a subpopulation to violate the natural rights of the members of one of its minorities.
This is good news. Spain says no to a referendum.
Jan 20th, 2014 - 01:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Now watch the pressure cooker effect. At this rate In 10 years time Catalonia will be independent. And a reduced Spain is a contained Spain.
I like it.
@19 A_Voice
Jan 20th, 2014 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the EU, there is no question that the right to self-determination will carry the day, absolutely none.
Spain is in no position to resist any pressure from the EU, at all.
They (the Catalans) will get their vote, and if they decide to, they will leave Spain.
Difficult to see what, if anything, Spain can do to stop this now.
@23 brasherboot
Certainly true that Catalan nationalist sentiment would not be running nearly so high, were it not for the attitude of this Spanish government.
24
Jan 20th, 2014 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain's constitution gives them a few options... they could for instance suspend Catalonia's autonomy and suspend the Catalan parliament...
Why would the EU interfere in a county's internal problems...?
Can you imagine what the reply from the UK Govt would be to the EU, if they tried to butt in over the Scottish referendum....
@25 A_Voice
Jan 20th, 2014 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Catalan regional government have the option to take the matter to the European Court, whose judgment would be binding on Spain.
Not to mention Catalan Euro MPs in the European Parliament.
If push comes to shove, then the matter will ultimately be decided by the EU.
Spain is in no position to resist the inevitable EU decision, to recognise Catalunya.
26
Jan 20th, 2014 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are saying things with out links and examples...I have not read anything where Catalonia have said any such thing...all they have said is if refused they will wait till the 2016 elections...
Artur Mas says....
“And if Spain blocks it? ”Then we will call new elections, by 2016 at the latest, and this election will become the referendum on independence. ”
@27
Jan 20th, 2014 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They ( the Catalans ) will eventually brake away from Spain, you said it yourself in your statement “ Then we will call new elections, by 2016 at the latest, and this election will become the referendum on independence”.
28
Jan 21st, 2014 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0To tell you the truth, I don't understand the quote...even though I quoted it, I don't see how they can turn an election into a referendum, it didn't make a whole lot of sense....
@29 A_Voice
Jan 21st, 2014 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A big (enough) victory will allow them to claim “a mandate from the people”, having fought the election on a platform of “independence”.
Which will “carry weight” in the EU, from an entity as big as Catalunya.
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