MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Decolonization of Gibraltar can only be settled by UN decision, argues Spain
Spain believes negotiation with Britain is the only realistic avenue for a resolution of the claim it makes over Gibraltar and its waters and that only by a decision of the United Nations can decolonization of the Rock be settled. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesWhat Spain needs to do is respect the right of people to determine their own future.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 08:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0The only body in the UN that can make a judgement is the International Court of Justice, which Spain avoids like the plague.
The UNGA cannot help Spain EVEN if the majority of members voted in Spains favour.
The UNSC cannot help Spain EVEN if the UK didn't veto any decision.
Neither body can resolve a sovereignty dispute.
Oh, and Spain needs to realise that decolonisation is up to the people being decolonised, and their status after decolonisation is totally up to the Gibraltarians NOT Spain.
And Gibraltar would opt for independence NOT to become a part of Spain.
Spain needs to realise that it isn't 1704 anymore, it's the 21st century. Since 1946 the rules of international law has changed.
The Treaty of Utrecht is no longer extant. It hasn't been extant since Spain broke it within 20 years of it being signed. That meant that the British don't have to abide by it either.
But the ONLY thing that actually matters is the UN Charter. Perhaps the Spanish should actually try reading the Charter to understand just how untenable their position is.
Ceuta
Feb 11th, 2014 - 09:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Melilla
Canary islands
Hypocrisy
Spain avoids the International Court like the plague because they know they would lose.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Even their own legal advisors have told them explicitly that there is no possibility of Spain regaining control of Gibraltar against the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.
The UN cannot force the people of Gibraltar to join Spain, so the only option for Spain is to try and get Britain to hand it over and make Britain the 'villain' by ignoring the rights of the Gibraltarians to Self Determination.
As Britain will not do this and as pressure is being applied on the EU to end Spain's politically motivated border delays, it is only a matter of time before Spain has to concede defeat and resume a normal border. If they do not, then the EU could invoke penalties, including fines. If that did not work, then Brussels could even withhold financial support, although this would cause problems for the Euro, as Spain is on the verge of financial collapse.
The longer that Spain keeps up this behaviour, the more likely that the state will break up when Catalonia has their referendum in November. Rajoy and Margallo will be known as the fools who 'fiddled' whilst Spain broke apart.
This can only end badly for Spain.
@2 Monkeymagic:
Feb 11th, 2014 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0And Spain defends its ‘controls’ at the frontier saying that these arise from the fact that Gibraltar is outside Schengen...so is the UK.
While Spain expects Gib to reduce smuggling TO Spain to nothing or face siege what is Spain actually doing to restrict the movement to the UK FROM Spain of not only goods on which UK duty has not been paid but also illegal fake items and electrical items that don't meet European safety standards?
Even more hypocrisy
Spain desperately seeking to get Gibraltar back, while Cataluña and the Vasque Country fight for independence.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Independence for Catalonia!!!!!!!!!
Feb 11th, 2014 - 10:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0#4: The only kind of smuggling at the Gibraltar / Spain border) is tobacco: this happens because cigarettes are about €2 cheaper in Gibraltar than in Spain.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Cigarettes are also cheaper in Andorra than in Spain: in fact, on one day last year Spain seized more incoming cigarettes at the Andorra border than it did in the first 7 months of 2013. But no queues there and a crossing with multiple lanes.
Cigarettes are also€2 cheaper in Spain than in France, and smuggling is rife. Spain's response to this was to ask that France allows someone to bring 10 cartons across the border without penalty.
So it's alright to smuggle if a/ the smuggling is from Andorra, or b/ the Spanish treasury is the one benefitting.
Interesting logic.
@7 When last checked, it was legal to take up to 3,200 duty-paid cigarettes from one EU state to another. In the UK, a customs officer may start asking questions if the traveller has more than 800 cigarettes. But, if the officer is satisfied that the goods are for personal use, there is no charge and no penalty.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunately, for Spain, it has been established that THE primary consideration is SELF-DETERMINATION. Antique “titles” and claims are irrelevant. This is a matter of international LAW. It may be that Spain would like to argue against that law. But that does not entitle it to impose its antediluvian perceptions on a free people.
Perhaps Spain would understand its position better with a few nudges to its education. Three or four British submarines parked off the Spanish coast, each with a large flag displaying the number of land attack cruise missiles available for use. Then, perhaps, a British destroyer and frigate in the Bay of Gibraltar, with their guns trained inland.
There's been too much pussy-footing by Britain! Perhaps there might be an “accident”. A Guardia Civil launch gets too close to a Royal Navy destroyer. That alters course and runs the launch over. Whoops! Inexperienced officers.
Worth remembering that modern Spain (if a country with a sham democracy may be called modern) didn't exist when Gibraltar was ceded to Britain...so how can they have something back that was never theirs?
Feb 11th, 2014 - 12:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If they want to be less hypocritical barbarian conquistadors, perhaps they should let Catalonia free and give up their enclaves...
2 - Hypocrisy - maybe . Irrelevance - yes.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Poor Spain.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 12:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They just don't get it.
Gibraltar+Ceuta+Melilla+al Andalus should be restored to the legitimate owners...The New Caliphate of the Islamic Maghreb under the guidance of the Allah’s humble servant the most wise MR. Malboro. The word of the Prophet-Blessed be his name- shall be spoken in these lands by Allah’s righteous sons once again.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@12 CabezaDura2,
Feb 11th, 2014 - 01:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Roderick, the Visigothic king, ruled Spain before the Muslims.
Don't you think that he(or his descendents)have prior right?
Thinking about it no.... There was never a real Visigoth Kingdom, just as you can say of the Frankish Kingdom before Charlemagne. The first state after the collapse of the Roman Empire to actually control North Africa/Numidia, the strait of Gibraltar and most of the Peninsula save for the Basque country and Asturias was the Moorish Caliphate..
Feb 11th, 2014 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We only have to endure another 9 months of this lunacy before the Catalan referendum signals the end of Spain as we know it today.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Then the border guards will have far more pressing things on their mind - which side to be on when the civil war starts!
The fact is that we only need to show & give our support for the Catalans and the Basques and any of the other regions that want to break away from Madrid, including Andalusia and Spain will crumble.
In the meantime, Brussels knows that the closer we get to the British General Election, the more pressure that No.10 will place on Brussels to whip Madrid back into line and stop these ridiculous border delays.
The EU may have ruled in Spain's favour the last time (to help them save face) but the instructions given to Madrid by the Commission have not been followed since, so the next time the Commission will rule against Spain.
If Spain refuses to comply with these instructions, then Brussels can apply financial penalties, including withholding payments from the EU, to pressure Madrid to comply.
I have a very strong feeling that when the Catalans are invaded by Spanish troops and shooting starts, then the EU will send in peacekeepers from France, Italy and Germany, to stop the fighting and allow Catalonia (and the Basques) to split away peacefully.
Whilst that's going on, the Gibraltar border controls will normalise. There may be a number of Andalusian politicians holding hasty talks at the Convent too.
Spain needs to think about Morocco's territorial integrity in regards to Ceuta and Mellila before whinging about their own. Decolonisation of Gibraltar shall happen if and when the people of that country choose it and not before. Spain must understand that.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@16
Feb 11th, 2014 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain refuses to understand that. It does not fit in with their imperialistic mentality. It's the same problem that Argentina has. They simply do not - or will not understand that to force any group of people to bow to their will is nothing short of bullying and unacceptable in the modern world.
I was once engaged to a Spanish lady and so I understand a little better how they view the world. The ultra nationalists, the fascists, still believe that they have to 're-conquer' the empire they once owned if they are to keep their national identity. It was only when my girlfriend visited me in Gibraltar when my ship was in port, that she finally understood the truth. That Gibraltar does not want to be part of Spain and you cannot force someone (even at gun point) to be part of your country, just so you can regain some of the national pride you once had.
Some where inside the minds of Spain / Argentina, they see themselves as an empire that once ruled the world and they believe that they have to conquer every last ounce of territory - even if (in the Falklands case) it never even belonged to them!
Argentina has brainwashed their children in school to believe in the fasle history, to believe that the Islands were stolen from them. So it is with a false national indignation, that they seek to recover the Islands.
In the case of Gibraltar, Spain knows full well that they gave away the Rock for eternity, but they cling to the hope that the United Nations and the Decolonisation Committee will allow them to recover something that they legally can never make a claim for in the International Court.
Of course they may try to claim that the Gibraltarians have no right of Self-Determination, but the UN knows otherwise. The fact is that the UN could never order Britain to hand over Gibraltar and neither would the courts. So Spain continues to be the bully, hoping that the Gibraltarians will get tired of the bad behaviour and bend over!
But they never will!
Independence for Cataluña, Pais Vasco, Galicia, Valencia et al.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 03:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“colonial situation of Gibraltar destroys the national unity and territorial integrity of Spain”.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ha!! suck it up Spain!!!
You are going to have to live with it!!!
back in the queue 19.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0only another 2 hours wait.
“Garacía-Margallo ministry sets out Spain's Gibraltar position in detailed answer to Basque MP Jon Iñarritu”
Feb 11th, 2014 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gollum2 couldn't answer what time of day it was without lying.
Don't forget he is Gollum's little understudy in lying and deceit.
Just carry on pissing the Gibraltarians off and see where it gets you: nowhere fast.
Spain furious at Gib EU inroads says Watson
Feb 11th, 2014 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar is now ‘officially’ an EU policy issue
subject of an ongoing European Commission investigation
Other national governments are getting more and more frustrated by Spain’s intractable single-mindedness on the issue
The Spanish are in the wrong, and they know it.”
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=32840
They have brought it all on themselves,
Still,
Spain and Argentina,
Two peas in the same rotten pod..
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Rio cedena In British Water's 11th of Feb 2014
Their has been Another Incursion By Rio Cedena of the Guardia Civil, This video shows How the Guardia Civil is Ridiculing our Royal Navy, This is embarrassing for them, The F.C.O are Neglecting their Duties and putting at risk Gibraltar Squadron by not doing nothing at all..... Video By T.Bickerstaff (c) All Rights Reserved
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=32840
Enough is Enough.
..
ICJ Advisory Opinion of 9th July 2004
Feb 11th, 2014 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Paragraph 88 page 172
'The Court would recall that in 1971 it emphasized that current developments in 'International Law in regard to non-self-governing territories, as enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, made the principle of self-determination applicable to all such territories.' The Court went on to state that 'these developments leave little doubt that the ultimate objective of the sacred trust 'referred to in Article 22, paragraph 1 of the covenant of the League of Nations 'was the self-development of the peoples concerned.'
icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf
20 Vestige
Feb 11th, 2014 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“only another 2 hours wait.”
.....and what's going to happen then?
The Spanish workers finally get home from a hard days work in Gib.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0only another 2 hours wait
Feb 11th, 2014 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0perhaps the Jaffa's will throw more oranges ..lol
seedless, of course...
Wow I sure hope Vestige got to his job in Gibraltar on time.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@14 CabezaDura2,
Feb 11th, 2014 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Probably the Visigothic kingdom did not comprise all of Spain, but they were the dominant power there.
l'll leave that for the serious historians to decide.
Another interesting point that l've thought about.
Before the Muslim advance across North Africa, the people were Christians.
The Muslims did not get into Tunisia until the year 700.
So, by the time they had fought their way through Algeria & into Morocco, several years must have passed.
They invaded Spain in 713 a.d. & used Moroccan troops as well as their own Arabs.
Therefore the Moroccan troops had to have been either Christians or recently converted.
Never found a mention of that.
Some seem to think Im among the Spanish employees without whom Gibraltar isn't able to operate.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Whatever about returning late....what about being in on time for the customers. No workers = No service, no receipts, no profit, no local economy.
But you could always import some wor....ah no theres not enough housing. Or school spaces. Or residence permits.
I hope you do realize I wasnt being serious in #12. Im not trying to prove anything.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What I meant is that most of these Germanic tribes that settled in into the former Western Roman Empire were the controlling civilizations yes, but not proper “States”, they quickly became disunited into many successor kingdoms and factions after invading like happened in Gaul & Aquitania with the Frankish tribes, you had a series of Saxon realms in England, the German and Austrian principalities and the Visigoths in the Iberian peninsula, etc. The Spanish and Portuguese Kingdoms did not really exist until the late 1400s.
Yes the Moroccans were under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church in Constantinople, not of Rome so they wouldn’t have being Catholics at the time… They would have to wait a long time in Morocco if they were waiting for the Byzantines to send over troops from Greece to aid them against the Arabs.
Spain produces a nice class of toilet cleaner.
Feb 11th, 2014 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ .. unanimous decision ..”
Feb 12th, 2014 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Did that ever get to be a UN Resolution though ??
Obviously S pain would like their pathetically weak sovereignty case sorted out by the UN, preferably by the UN C24 but they have not got the guts to take up First Minister Picardo's offer to take all sovereignty matters to the UN ICJ.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 05:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0So glad Vestige isn't one of those Spanish employees.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 05:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Seems he is instead a consumer.
And even the border delay didn't dissuade him. Ouch poor Madrid.
@30 CabezaDura2,
Feb 12th, 2014 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thought you might have been, but also like a logical historical discussion.
Before l leave,
The Normans took Sicily from the Arabs in 1071.
Then then used Sicily as a base to raid Arab-speaking North Africa.
l read somewhere that in Tunisia they encountered people who still spoke Latin or a descendent of Latin, 371 years after the Arab conquest.
Now, unfortunately, that language would have died out.
But l can find no more about it.
Do you know any thing about this?
#22 - “Rio cedena In British Water's 11th of Feb 2014”
Feb 12th, 2014 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0- Filming ships bunkering. Spain is about to introduce a law fining companies who bunker in British Gibraltar waters. They know that this is illegal as they have no jurisdiction, but the concept is that firms stop bunkering there due to uncertainty and the snail's pace of a legal challenge.
The plan is that they strangle Gibraltar's economy and the trade diverts to Ceuta and Algeciras, where a new oil terminal is being built. And, coincidentally, where a Spanish Cabinet Minister's family runs a bunkering business....
#29 - Some seem to think Im among the Spanish employees without whom Gibraltar isn't able to operate. Whatever about returning late....what about being in on time for the customers. No workers = No service, no receipts, no profit, no local economy.“
- And more Spaniards on the 'paro'. It's nice to see your concern for your fellow man. Still, anything for a bit of ”doctrine” eh? So, are these 'casualties of war'? Is the government going to step in and pay their mortgages? Or will it be like the 'fishermen affected by the reef' who are going to get €150 in compensation?
As to the Gibraltar economy: it's doing fine. No real dip in trade or profits. La Linea, on the other hand, reports a 30-40% drop in trade and businesses are closing right, left and centre.
Still. As long as Margallo gets hit vicious little digs in to distract you from their removal of your jobs, prospects and civil liberties, all is well with the world. Eh?
I do not understand the mentality of the Spanish mind. If they so desparately want Gib why not ablolish the border, let free movent of people and business and in a few years the population would be more Spanish than Gibraltan and they would be in control.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its A possibility,
Feb 12th, 2014 - 01:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0then again she could always close the border,
and let history take its natural path,
but then, she would lose both ways..lol
35
Feb 12th, 2014 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It seems they would have survived the onslaught of the Vandals 500 years later.
What I have found about it is the references of an andalusian cartographer, writer and explorer Muhammad al-Idrisi of a Latin speaking community in Gafsa (Capsa in Roman times) in Tunisia
He even was in the last stages of his life at the service of King Roger of Sicily (perhaps this is the Norman encounter with the Latin speakers of North Africa you speak of?) or was it a actual account of a raid into a North African village or city were they came across these Latin speakers
34 - mmm no if I was a consumer/tourist Id be giving Gib a wide berth. Queues and that, easier to shop in LaLinea.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@40 Gibraltar is a much nicer place to visit.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not just nicer, but safer too.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are CCTV cameras all over Gibraltar, monitored by the Police. If someone commits a crime, such as snatching a bag, it's usually caught on camera and this is used to prosecute the criminal. They showed this in the “Gibraltar, Britain in the Sun” programme last night.
It's one of the reasons that the Cruise ships prefer to dock in Gibraltar, rather than Algeciras. That and the airport, which gives ease of onward transport.
Firms like to do business in Gibraltar, because they know they won't have to bribe anyone - unlike Spain. Also, they know that British law (or rather English & Welsh law) respects property rights - unlike Spain, where ex-pats who placed all their savings into retiring to a custom built villa in the sun, then find that even though the local council approved the construction, the Spanish Government can come along years later and condemn the building for demolition with no right of appeal.
Spain is a nation where bullies seem to prosper. Just like they do in Argentina - where 'Vestige' is from.
It is also a country that is rapidly going down the plug hole and in economic collapse.....
That's both Argentina and Spain.
*42 Such animosity,enmity,venom,impropriety towards a fellowNATO and EU
Feb 12th, 2014 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0member.I an utterly startled by such backtalk.
@43
Feb 12th, 2014 - 06:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, I agree, Spain has a great deal of animosity towards Britain and Gibraltar.
Yes I am puzzled that Rajoy & Margallo continue this enmity or that they speak with such venom about the people of Gibraltar, who give so many Spanish citizens so much employment.
It is most certainly improper for Spain to act in such a way to another NATO member. France does not do it to Germany. Italy does not do it to Greece and Norway does not invade the waters of Denmark and claim that they belong to them.
It's equally disturbing that a fellow EU country like Spain, a net receiver of EU contributions, should act in this deceitful and aggressive manner to a net contributor to EU funds.
Maybe the answer is for Britain to leave the EU so none of our money goes to Spain.
Better still, maybe the answer is for Britain to veto any aid to Spain, to encourage the economic downfall of the Spanish Government
We could always arrest the Spanish intruders and throw them in prison for their territorial invasions, but then that would actually give them a chance to have three decent meals a day when their government is so intent in throwing them out of work and onto the street.
Refresh my memory...
How many Spanish people look in refuse bins every day for their food?
Maybe the answer is for Britain to leave the EU so none of our money goes to Spain.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0sooner the better
Spain Recoils as Its Hungry Forage Trash Bins for a Next Meal
Feb 12th, 2014 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0New York Times September 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/world/europe/hunger-on-the-rise-in-spain.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Spanish being fed by charity
500,000 in 2007
2 million in 2010
Spanish city Girona puts locks on bins
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/world/europe/hunger-on-the-rise-in-spain.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
“The municipality said in a statement that it had taken the decision along with supermarket owners ”due to the health risks that could arise from eating food thrown into the bins and the social alarm it causes.“”
“In some places fights regularly break out as people struggle to retrieve the best food from the containers at closing time when supermarkets clear the shelves of out of date stock.”
People fighting over food from bins?!
How many?
In Spain statistics show that there are more than 1.73 million households where ALL eligible workers are unemployed.
What’s good for the goose,
Feb 12th, 2014 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is good enough for the gander ?? lol
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Decolonisation of Gibraltar can only be settled by UN decision, [argues Spain ]
Thus.
Decolonisation of Spain / territories,// can only be settled by UN [ argues the rest ]
giggle..
So Vestige crosses the Gibraltar border and happily waits through all the delays.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not to shop.
Not as a tourist.
Not to work.
Finally we have found a smuggler.
Come November, Rajoy and Margallo are going to find out how the Catalans feel about Spanish imperialism.
Feb 12th, 2014 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Would not be surprised if life becomes decidedly unhealthy for them and they have to be transported everywhere by armoured car.
If one Catalan dies because of Madrid's stupidity, there will be hell to pay. The ETA terrorists will be nothing compared to the fury of more than 8 million Catalans.
Franco repressed the Catalans because they supported the Republic...
Well folks, this time it's...
THE REPUBLIC STRIKES BACK!
THE RETURN OF THE CATALANS..
Feb 13th, 2014 - 10:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0#42 - “unlike Spain, where ex-pats placed all their savings into .. a custom built villa in the sun, then find that even though the local council approved the construction, the Spanish Government can come along years later and condemn the building for demolition with no right of appeal”
Feb 13th, 2014 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain also rips off its own citizens.
A few years ago many Spaniards had savings in banks and cajas. These were protected undere EU law.
When the banks and cajas realised they were about to go bust, they persuaded these savers to convert their cash savings into 'better performing' things, which turned out to be preference shares in the bank. In many cases, if a saver didn't sign the form after the hard sell, the bank forged the signature and converted the savings anyway.
These were unprotected, had no voting rights, and when the banks shares collapsed, the savings were wiped out.
The people in charge of the banks, however, received huge commissions on these transactions, and paid themselves massive bonuses even though they knew the banks would collapse.
No-one got their money back and the government blocked all investigations and prosecutions.
Then, when several broke cajas merged into Bankia, the govt wanted to sell the shares. It issued a prospectus highlighting a bright future and claiming the debt was behind Bankia. The remaining savers in Spain bought shares.
Three months later Bankia (run by PP members) collapsed and the shares were worthless.
As you may guess, no-one got their money back and the government blocks all investigations and prosecutions....
@51
Feb 13th, 2014 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These cases highlight a culture of default on debt that is prevalent in not just Spain, but Argentina too.
This must have been noticed by Germany over the years since the Euro started. Spain was amongst several countries that spent like money was going out of fashion, in the sure and certain knowledge (not hope) that Germany would bail them out if the worst happened, because they were too large to fail.
Germany must be regretting their decision to allow Spain to participate (along with Greece, Ireland and Portugal) as they are a millstone around the neck of the Euro which will inevitably bring it crashing down eventually.
It does not matter that Germany and the ECB have adopted the “Emperor's New Clothes” response to the debt problems, because ignoring them will not make them go away. Furthermore, printing Euros to solve the problem on paper will simply devalue the currency and the value of the German tax payer's savings, which the German Government has been so reluctant to lend to such bad debtors - knowing that it will never be repaid.
Spain is a catastrophe waiting to happen. The civil war will be a useful distraction from the financial collapse and may even hasten it. Rajoy and Margallo have been using Gibraltar as the diversion up until now, but they cannot do this forever. Sooner or later they are bound to cross a line which forces HMG to take punitive action against Madrid. You would have thought that the GC boat firing on a Jet Skier was the line. Had the British citizen died or been arrested, then Cameron would have no choice.
As a major financial centre, Britain can apply financial pressure on Madrid. At an EU level they can veto any aid, but Germany and France would be reluctant to cause a Euro crisis.
Spain's behaviour is getting close to those rogue states in the Middle East. If they are now hacking other governments, it time to put an end to this Spanish cyber warfare.
“colonial situation of Gibraltar destroys the national unity and territorial integrity of Spain.”
Feb 13th, 2014 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like the colonisation of Ceuta and Melilla destroys the national unity and territorial integrity of Morocco.
They never consider the hypocrisy of seeking to end Gibraltar's 'colonial' status, when they have colonies in Morocco.
Feb 13th, 2014 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain always excuses this by claiming that they owned these territories before Morocco existed as a state.
But you see that argument falls down because these territories were owned by others long before Spain possessed them and the places in question were part of contiguous land possessions of an empire which later became Morocco.
So it does not matter that Spain claims that they owned these cities before the Moroccans laid claim, because the Carthaginians and Arabs owned them before Spain did.
There are parallels elsewhere in the world. I'm sure the Cubans are none too happy about the United States owning Guantanamo Bay. But they have no choice because the Cuban American treaty of 1903 and later treaties have confirmed that they are United States territory. They may protest, but there's nothing else Cuba can do.
There are other states which maintain a small enclave within another countries territory. One in particular that reminds Spain that they should not make a fuss over Gibraltar is the territory of Olivença, (called Olivenza in Spain), which was ceded to Spain in the Treaty of Badajoz in 1801.
Spain breached the terms of this Treaty shortly afterwards in 1807 when Spanish troops marched into Portugal yet again in the Peninsular War. In 1808, Portugal claimed that Spain abrogated the treaty and as part of the Treaty of Vienna 1815, demanded the return of Olivenza.
Spain has refused to comply.
This parallels Gibraltar, because after Spain signed the famous Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, they then proceeded to break the terms of the Treaty by trying to invade and take back Gibraltar.
That's one of the reasons why the Utrecht terms are not confined to the City and the port, because the later wars meant that Spain lost even more territory in the process of reneging on the treaty they'd agreed to.
Spain, a spoilt child,
Feb 13th, 2014 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0who wont give up those sweets they took without paying.
@54 nigelpwsmith
Feb 14th, 2014 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Whilst Spain and Argentina are only too glad to point out what they see as breaches of treaties, they rarely acknowledge reciprocal breaking of treaties that they have carried out as in the case of Gibraltar.
If Spain had not broken the treaty of Utrecht by re-attacking Gibraltar, they would not have lost so much of it.
It's a bit like Britain reclaiming the USA by saying the colonists usurped British territory in the War of Independence and therefore the USA should revert to the UK. The fact is we lost that war of independence and the self determination of the colonists prevailed.
But we don't moan about it-sh1t happens.
Self-Determination and National Security: Why the U.S. Should Back British Sovereignty over
Feb 14th, 2014 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/02/self-determination-and-national-security-why-the-us-should-back-british-sovereignty-over-gibraltar
Read it, this is very interesting.
@56 Pete Bog,
Feb 14th, 2014 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some historians & myself(amateur historian)consider the American War of lndependence to actually be a Civil War.
Emigrants were arriving all the time, some just before the war started.
At what time do you stop being British & become American?
l'm sure there must have been some heart-wrenching moments when you decided just what side you were on.
How many people saw their brothers or cousins in the uniforms of the other side.
Tempers were frayed, but had commonsense prevailed, the whole mess could have been avoided.
Well, thats past history now.
What has happened, has happened.
@ 58 lsolde
Feb 15th, 2014 - 04:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“At what time do you stop being British & become American?”
Given that most of these arrivals would see themselves “saved” by ANY American it presents an intriguing question.
My wife and I came to Uruguay principally to beat the cold winters (and to some extent the summers) in the UK that encouraged severe asthma bouts which almost killed my wife on one occasion. Thankfully she has not had a single bout since we arrived, almost three years ago now but she still takes her routine asthma medication “just in case”. Regretabbly she has had other serious problems since arriving but is progressing well after prompt and professional treatment in Uruguay.
But do we feel Uruguayo or British?
I detest the stupid, idiotic government here just as much as the idiotic and stupid government in the UK, but I love the country and the workers. The real people who work in the private sector and do not sponge on our taxes like the government “workers” and the “poor” who receive money without any work being involved.
Would I fight for Uruguay? Being almost 68 YO I have to look at what I can offer. I can still shoot a high powered rifle better than any argie “soldier” of that I am sure but my wife of 44 years would already have left if the circumstances that presented the need came about so what would it matter if eventually I died for my new country?
At least I would not be like a Tupamaro and run away as so many did being the cowards that they were and remain.
@58
Feb 16th, 2014 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Isolde
You do have a point, and there are suggestions that the British were entitled to charge the colonists taxes as GB was spending a lot of money defending the US.
Yes-it was all badly handled and the USA could now be a BOT if things had been different
If we were Argentina (and Argentina had lost the USA) they would be bleating about it into infinity.
However the UK does not chase the end of the rainbow.
This is why I keep returning to the relevance (1833-Falklands) of Pinedo's sailors being British born, and despite working for the United Provinces, they considered themselves British (not UP nationals) as they refused to fight for Pinedo against Onslow, whereas obviously most British settlers in the US plumped for a new nationality. If things had been managed better by GB there could well have been a different outcome.
You pose an interesting question about just when British people/settlers assume a new nationality-this seems to confuse the Argentines that while Falkland Islanders could declare independence, they see the sense for the time being in having the British umbrella (in opposition to those settlers who created the USA). This does not (and the Argentines will never be intellectually adept to recognise this) mean that there is not a non-English/Scottish/Welsh etc subculture that has been developed on the Islands forged by the location/weather/social/ structure/Spanglish etc etc .
The Islanders seem to have kept British traits that have vanished in Britain-i.e. many public services are run by the government (as opposed to being sold off to the private sector), and other traits. In asimilar way, the US keep old English words in their language that English itself has discarded.
Dead right Pete Falkland Islands should be independent.
Feb 16th, 2014 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wouldn't take too long to train up a decent Defence Force and Islanders already have a ready made naval expertise. Throw in a few Patrol Boats and you're on your way. UK can then withdraw and leave you to it. Good Luck.
I think I can add a little to this discussion on nationality identity as my own national identity is quite young compared to many others.
Feb 17th, 2014 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0When did we start feeling less British and more Aussie? There was never really an actual moment but more of a long slow process. Though Australia became a country in 1901 and was even given equal status to the UK in the 1930s with the Statute of Westminster, it wasn't until 1948 that we created our own citizenship. Up till then we were still British but also Australian at the same time.
It probably wasn't until the 1970s that Australia really began to pursue its own national priorities and identity partly as a result of the UK entering the EEC and cutting us loose to pursue our own trade direction.
And this is what differentiates many many former British colonies. Because once you strip out certain examples such as the US and Ireland, Britain didn't repress or hinder home rule nor independence. And as many countries (especially in Latin America) have shown, wars of independence lead to a quicker and stronger sense of national identity. A rallying around the flag so to speak.
That is why Spain and Portugal are just another European country to many South Americans with no particular sense of kinship other than language, even though they do not have a majority native population but a European descended one. The UK is still considered to have a special and close relationship to places like Australia, New Zealand and Canada that places it above many other countries.
When the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar declare independence (and I say when not if), then they will not go through some instant identity change but will slowly build and develop on their current national identity that coexists with being British. The UK will not automatically revoke citizenship and the situation will be quite fluid for many decades.
The precedents are already there.
I suppose you could say that the Commonwealth countries have a stronger affinity for the 'mother' country because not only do they share the same language, but also the same cultural identity and democratic heritage.
Feb 17th, 2014 - 07:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0An Australian feels as much at home in London, as he does in Melbourne. When the Empire ended, a part of Britain remained with each of the offspring. We now feel like siblings, sometimes fighting like brother and sister, but stronger together as a family and we fight to protect the family.
When Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands are capable of changing their status to independent nations, I fervently hope that they retain all the rights they held before, including the right to reside in the UK and be protected by the UK.
The precedent is indeed there already. The Republic of Ireland may have split away from the United Kingdom in 1921, but the Irish still have the full right of abode and the right to vote in the British elections. They are kith and kin. The same should be true for newly independent members of the Commonwealth.
Not all British Overseas Territories want independence. Some do need support from the UK, because they still have existing problems. However, eventually these may be resolved and they can stand on their own two feet.
Spain and Portugal never had this strong affinity for the countries that formed from them, because to them, the colonies were possessions.
Spain could never recover Gibraltar, because the Gibraltarians feel strong affection for their British identity, as well as a hatred of the people who tried to subjugate them. Spain drove them away by trying to bully them and Argentina did the same to the Falkland Islanders. Britain has stood by both territories, because the British will never allow a bully to hurt British citizens.
After Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia the UK is war weary. It would have to be a really good cause to convince Britons to go to war overseas again. The British Armed Forces are there to protect British citizens. When Scotland becomes independent, there will need to be a further reassessment by Westminster.
Feb 17th, 2014 - 08:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!