MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
“Extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the EU, says Barroso
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union. Speaking to the BBC's Andrew Marr he said an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership and get the approval of all current member states. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesScotland seems to be attempting to dictate their preferred version of future events rather than listen to those that might know more.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Everyone should beware of politicians that promise the world, because they usually fail to deliver when they get what they want.
Come on Scotland you want independence then it should be FULL independence not selective independence to suit, you shouldnt let something small like uncertain currency or a business exodus get in the way of national pride.........Braveheart and all that!
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0I guess if you live inside the Scottish bubble where Salmond is omniscient then you might convince yourself that he really can deliver Currency Union and EU membership by his sheer willpower. However, outside of the bubble we might admire Salmond but he has no mandate or jurisdiction here and therefore can't just order the rUK and EU around. I would sooner take a bit of short-term pain to deal with the currency split than be stuck in a currency union that has no benefit whatsoever for rUK but just risk.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0And complaining about Osborne's or Barroso's warnings is like a smoker complaining that his doctor is threatening him with lung cancer.
Salmond was talking nonsense yesterday but was amazed at how his Business Community audience lapped it up and didn't question the obvious economic flaws. It seems the emotional desire for independence is the strongest consideration. Perhaps that is the way it should be and will be the same when England/Wales have their own referendum on the EU in 2017.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Barosco is playing games as the Spanish have their own internal nationalist problems in their most wealthy region, Catalonia. It should also be noted that he is on his way out of the EU presidency so is effectively a lame duck. I also noted his use of the comparison of Scotland with Kosovo. Very strange! We should also remember that in terms of their economy, they are using the EU life support systems to stay afloat so their is plenty leverage to 'alter' any doubts they may have. France and more importantly Germany might also see supporting Scotland as a way of clipping rUK's wings. I am not suggesting this will come to pass, but I think these are all valid points.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Swinney is correct because when (if) Scotland applied for membership it would still be within the aegis of the UK membership for the first 18 months after the referendum so is negotiating as part of the UK, a member country. It should be remembered that currently Scotland meets all the legislative requirements for membership of the EU. Scotland is currently hard wired into the EU. If the EU do not want members who meet all their requirements and are resource rich we would have to question their sanity or motives. To highlight this point I shall quote the example of East Germany. A country that met none of the requirements for EU membership yet was able to join the EU within three months of the Berlin Wall coming down. This while the terms of their union with the then West Germany, were still being negotiated. They were a non country at the time. So I would contend that if there is an advantageous deal to be done it will be done and if it comes to it, that is what will happen.
@4 Be serious
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0I agree. What would an independant Scotland do?
The scenario. Scotland finally gets to join the EU, it doesn't want the Euro (but that is a requirement for all new members), and wants a currency union with the rest of the UK.
However, the rest of the UK vote to leave the EU, and vote against a currency union with Scotland.
So basically you'd have Scotland being even less independant than they are now, as they would be forced to take the Euro as their currency, and have their economic policy dictated to them from Brussels.
Some independence that would be. Independent from the UK, even more dependent on the EU.
It appears that Salmond wants to have his cake and eat it. Well in the real world that never happens, there are always compromises.
And if Scotland does go for independence, then good for them, but once out of the Union that's it. I can't see the rest of the UK riding to Scotlands rescue if they bankrupt themselves this time.
Last time it was easier, because all they had to do was persuade the landowners (basically the MP's) in England, Wales and Scotland to vote for it. The union was profitable for them regardless of which side of the border they were on. However, in the 21st century the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would get a say too, and Scotland might be surprised by the answer that they'd receive.
Salmonds plan for Scotland appears to hinge on one thing only. North Sea Gas and Oil. Even if Scotland got all of it (and it's not certain that they would despite Salmonds promises), it would be depleted within 40-50 years. In the terms of a country's economy that isn't very long, especially with the 'wish list' Salmond has promised the Scottish people.
If the Scottish want to see their future all they need to do is look at Eire's when they became independent. Basically the ultra nationalist government in Eire destroyed the Irish economy over pride. Will Scotland follow suit?
@ Steuart - East / West Germany cannot be used as an example. They united in 1990. The European Union under the Maastricht Treaty came into being in 1993.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Scotland, if it chooses independence will become a member of the EU - But it will not be on Scotland's terms or timeframe.
#6: Nail. On. Head.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 09:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Salmond is trying to dictate the most favourable possible terms but it is something that is virtually impossible for him to deliver.
Currency Union: Even if rUK agreed that Scotland remained in the 'pound zone' (sorry - can't call it sterling in that case - the irony of a scottish name for the currency!) there are two dichotomies here:
- They would only account for, at best, 10% of the GDP of the zone and would therefore be committed to rUK fiscal and monetary policy. London would not permit Scotland to threaten its currency by following the SNP's spending plans, and would not wish to be held ultimately liable for Scottish debt.
- New EU members are obliged to sign up for the Euro.
EU Membership: Spain has declared that there will be no fast-track for Scotland (due to the Catalan issue). However they could be persuaded that Scotland can join rapidly as the secession is agreed with the rUK, therefore removing any possible precedent that Catalunya could use.
But would they do that?
#8 sceptic64
Feb 18th, 2014 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think “sterling” has anything to do with Scotland. I remember reading that it probably came from the old English for “little star” (steorraling or sterling) which was used as slang for small Anglo-Saxon silver coins. The idea is that large payments would be made using “pounds of Sterlings”.
#6 You make some good points but bear in mind the following:
Feb 18th, 2014 - 09:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Countries within the EU can still use their own currencies e.g. Denmark. So far six currency options have been identified for an independent Scotland.
The UK has not voted against currency union. Three political parties have said they would not allow it. However, bear in mind there is a general election coming up in 2015. If Labour look as if they will be punished by the Scottish electorate for going in with the Cons/Libcons on this issue (and there appears to be a bit of a backlash building. Lab/Cons/Libdems in Scotland have been in hiding since Osborne/Balls/ decision), they may change their minds if this costs them a parliamentary majority. Equally if they lose ground to the SNP at the general election, they might require the SNP to cement a majority at Westminster. Bear in mind that the Tories are dead in Scotland, The Libdems are dead by association (outvoted by UKIP and lost deposit in the recent Fife by-election!) so the fight in Scotland is SNP and Labour head to head. Labour have it all to lose or gain but by jumping in with Cons/Libdems they are being viewed as anti-Scottish (not necessarily anti UK). I am swaying toward a Yes vote from a firm No vote simply because I believe currency union should at the very least be debated in parliament as it is a very important decision and should be above party politics.
#7 Thank you for your correction, but was the East Germany's membership of the EEC ever an issue despite being a separate country from West Germany (according to the UN). It shows that deals can be done if there is a willingness.
@ 10 Steuart
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0You comment re 7 is invalid, please read 7 again.
I think that Scots money should be called the Salmond: it might actually be worth something when Scotland comes back into the Union having decided it's the best place for them after all.
5 Steuart (#)
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:46 am
Recently you said that the Yes vote had surged and had hit 47% and I thought, because I didn't know the truth at the time, that with just a few months to go then the SNP might just get what they want.
But I know the truth now. The yes vote isn't at 47% at all. You took the confirmed 35% of yes voters, added the 10% who have said they are undecided and chucked on another couple of %, presumably from the confirmed no campaign just to bulk up the numbers. And you still didn't get 51%.
The ScotNat attitude is 'cake and eat it thanks'. 'What is yours is mine and what is mine is my own'.
In 1707 Scotland pushed hard for a union with England and Wales because Scotland was bankrupt following a brief empire building project that went disastrously wrong. It cost Scotland between 25 and 3o% of her entire worth. The Scottish pound was sunk and they needed another one. The English pound had been around for nearly a thousand years already, the act of union allowed Scotland to spread the crippling debt about the new union. And because Scotland now had unfettered access to England and English markets Scotland went from zero to hero at the stroke of a pen. But the new currency still wasn't theirs. It belonged and still does, to the UK.
The UK carried them along like this for centuries and then they struck oil in the North Sea. It was UK money that developed it of course but what's theirs is theirs remember? The independence movement gathered pace.
All that has happened here is that the SNP can't keep every aspect of the debate bottled up in Scotland and they have no mandate outside Scotland. All they can seem to do is figure out how to offload their own debt and get away with it. It has just become clear that one way or another...........they can't.
The best of it is that this is exactly what ScotNats accuse the rest of the UK of. It's like talking to Malvinistas now. Nothing is their fault and nothing is their responsibility.
What is RUK?
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Whether Spain or anyone else would veto Scottish membership is a moot point - but when have all 28 countries of the EU agreed on anything in a quick timeframe?
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Combined with the diplomatic skills of Salmond who will probably insult everyone along the way it's probably going to take quite a while.
#11 I have read it. And as I say, if there's a good deal to be done it will be as it was with East/West Germany. Of course it will involve other people and not everybody get everything they want.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0#12 Furballs, oh to live in your land eh!
Dont recall saying the Yes campaign had hit 47%, you are saying that. How very Argie of you. Do you believe it too? I recall saying the difference between the Yes and No campainghad reduced by around 50%( and quoted my source - Scotland on Sunday) and cue Osborne's announcement on monitory union (panic perhaps? Why? Was their lead reducing?).
The purpose of the SNP is stated on their tin and has been since the 1930's. They are not overly concerned with winning hearts and minds in the rest of the UK. Their purpose is to win a majority in Scotland only and then they will have acheived that purpose. Your flawed history lessons are uneccesary. Lets deal with whats in front of us eh.
I think the real politics are beginning to kick in in tha campaign and I find it very interesting. My own view is that Con/Lab/Libdems are panicking hence the currency announcement. By going in with the Tory/Libcon Govt, labour have left themselves exposed as anti Scottish and the SNP are reaping the rewards. Can you explain why the Scottish Cons/Lab/Libdems are so quiet since Osborne's announcement? There has been nothing from them up here. If they really supported the UK govt's position they would be out telling us how their glorious leaders have shown Scotland the way but this is not happening. I suspect the currency decision was taken without their knowledge and they are tearing themselves apart over this. To whose benefit is this? The SNP of course. That is why they have maintained their position and made no announcements about alternatives as the seem to have too much to gain from the turmoil caused. Real Politik at its best!
I already know.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/6604-scotland-and-ruk-both-successor-states-after-independence-says-academic
Scotland want independence, they want to abandon the union. Why should they have it all on there terms? why should they have any of their terms?
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0i would disagree this is a panic i see it as fairly logical. we don't know how an independent Scotland will work therefore we cant trust them and the trust needed will take many years to build the SNP have an anti British attitude demanding things they have no right to demand.
personally if they want to be independent they should take the land Presently considered to be Scotland, divide the oil and gas based on UN laws on the sea, Take a percent of the current debt per capita plus the original debt that brought them in to the union in the first place and if you really wanted to spite that Anti British party put on the interest accrued
also personally i feel the vote for Independence will fail.
They want to keep the pound what sort of true independence is that ?
12 Furry-Fat-Feck
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0in 1707 the English bought the Scottish Parliament as most of its members who had their fortunes tied up in the Darien disaster saw this as a way to recuperate their losses, without consultation with the Scottish people a point the English did not show much concern over either as they had stationed a 10,000 strong English army for the invasion of Scotland 7 miles south of Edinburgh on the day of the vote just in case it did not go the way the Westminster government had intended, with mass demonstrations and riots in every major town and citiy that lasted many months shows quite clearly the Scots did not push hard for union, the real reason for England to push hard and have union was simple a pro French government in Edinburgh was a threat to England`s dominance in North America and its attempts at empire elsewhere a hostile government only 300 from London was a strategic advantage for the French. England had to have dominance on the islands of Britain.
the rest of your post is the usual fallacy ” benevolence of the English is unappreciated by the Scottish subsidy junkies.
learn your history England has taken more than they have every given.
Today I learned that Great Britain is not a country. It is an island.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Today we learned that countries that dominate by force can not resist to the force of democracy.
Today England learned from their mistakes and tomorrow will learn to be more humble.
@10 Steuart - I'm not sure what you're asking.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0East Germany as a separate country was never part of the EEC (And couldn't apply as it wasn't a democracy). When the Wall came down and they decided to reunify I don't believe there were any problems because in very basic terms the state of (West) Germany was simply larger (And also the founding member!)
As I said in #7 - I am sure an iScotland will be part of the EU but it will have tough negotiations as a new member state and I don't think they can achieve membership in 18 months nor on their terms. I foresee a period where temporary EU Provisions are made until membership is achieved.
Although it will be a moot point as I think it'll be a No Vote.
@10 Steuart
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Denmark, like the UK opted out of the Euro and could because they were already members of the EU.
If Scotland cedes from the UK they also cede from ALL treaties that the UK made, that includes the EU. So they would have to reapply for membership, and new members of the EU MUST have the Euro as their currency. It's all there in black and white.
The UK government could put currency union to a referendum, none of the political parties have discussed it much, but if they did put it to a referendum the PEOPLE of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be the deciding factor. What an independent Scotland wants and what an independent Scotland actually will get are two entirely different things.
@18 Oder 1001
The Scottish MPs voted for union. The English and Welsh MPs voted for union. That is how it was back in the 18th century. NONE of the people, whether Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish got a say in the matter.
A previous attempt to form a political union was defeated by the ENGLISH not Scottish, which disproves your attempts to imply that the union was Englands idea. The idea was always Scottish, starting with King James VI of Scotland (I of England and Wales), and then the Scottish parliament.
What is TRUE though, is the rest of the union bailed out Scotland and prevented them from becoming bankrupt.
The Scottish have got far more out of the union than the English, Welsh or Irish ever did. It was true in the 18th century and it is true today.
What do you think would've happened to Scotland if their ruling class and by extension the country had become bankrupt?
No money, means no way to pay craftsmen, who in turn don't buy materials from others, who in turn don't employ working class people, who in turn cannot feed their families. Nor could they have afforded to pay for food to be imported (and Scotland wasn't exactly self-sufficient in the 18th century).
So saved the 'sob' story, it isn't true, it never has been, and it never will be.
Brasileiro:
Feb 18th, 2014 - 12:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great Britain - 3 countries
United Kingdom - 4 countries
British Isles - 5 countries
Plus 3 dependencies
Hope this helps.
A-Voice is very conspicuous by his absence I see. It was only a few weeks ago he was stamping his feet demanding where it had been said that the UK would not enter into a currency union with Scotland. Well now he knows and it was a pretty resounding NO.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There seems to be a lot if ignorance regarding other potential breakaway states in the EU, it is not just Catalonia. Also the people of Flanders right at the heart of the EU and the Basque region. They are all watching the Scottish litmus test and seeing how it works out for them. Of course we in the EU are all democracies and if a particular people want to break away from a current EU member, that is their democratic choice. However, that does not give them automatic rights to everything that they once took for granted.
If Scotland go it alone they are going to find that the big wide world is a very cruel place and their ego-crazed leader will not get his own way no matter how much he demands it.
Scotland are going to find it very difficult to borrow money and if they default their share of the national debt, no one will lend to them.
The whole idea of independence is now so full of holes only the most Braveheart die hard individuals will consider it.
Oh, Brasiliero. If you're going to comment on this issue then educate yourself about it first, your comments are really juvenile.
#19
Feb 18th, 2014 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Still talking rubbish I see. Despite your comments its clear that you still don't understand how the Union between England and Scotland came about.
But this doesn't really surprise me as someone coming from a country:
- which was stolen, by force, from the indigenous population, many of whom were subsequently massacred.
- which maintained slavery well beyond most other countries.
- who's economy is largely based on the destruction of the rainforest.
- which, today, has one of the highest levels of income inequality in the world.
- which, today, has one of the highest crime rates (at least murder rates) in the world.
The government of the UK, despite having no legal obligation to do so, has organised a referendum allowing Scotland to choose whether to remain. I can think of few countries in the world whose governments have ever taken this step.
Salmond wants a divorce for Scotland but keep all the conjugal rights including access the ex-partner's bank account. Good luck with that.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To complain about the Scottish people being made aware of the truth makes Salmond look even more of a fantasist with an eye to getting his name in the history books.
Scottish people should be free to decide their future but with the full knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages. How else can they make an informed decision?
It only takes one EU member to veto Scotland from joining the EU.I find it very difficult for Scotland to be a member of the EU if they divorced from The UK.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is like the veto that four EU countries are placing on Kosovo.
@25
Feb 18th, 2014 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Having the Scottish people being able to make an informed decision is not part of Salmonds plan, otherwise the 800,000 Scots living in the RUK would have been allowed to vote, as opposed to a migrant worker residing in Scotland that has been there 5 minutes.
The whole thing is corrupt and I think many Scots will regret the day they ever put Salmond in government. But it's not the first time the Scots have got behind a maverick leader only to see it all go very wrong.
As an impartial observer, it doesn't look like The Scots have thought this through very well.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They will go from being a powerhouse to a cold, forgotten, poor country unable to protect itself and offering little or nothing to trade. If they want'ed to be independent they should have done it when there was still oil and gas not when its just about to run out.
“”“”“”“”“”Today I learned that Great Britain is not a country. It is an island.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Today we learned that countries that dominate by force can not resist to the force of democracy.
Today England learned from their mistakes and tomorrow will learn to be more humble.“”“”“”“”“”“”“”
I haven't got a clue what you are on about... do you even actually mean England, or do you mean GB? or even GB sans Scotland (leaving England, Wales, N.Ireland and various other bits) ..?
In all that England is basically the Catalonia of the UK..so imagine Catalonia deciding whether or not it will let the rest of Spain become Independent.... and the impoverished remainder of Spain demanding that Catalonia hand over everything *just because we wants it precious*.
now you're getting closer to reality.
----
“Steuart ” - i think you have who is panicking the wrong way around - Scotland's been firmly shoved into reality by Barroso and others... other than the head-in-the-sand-Salmon anybody with an ounce of sense should be able to see that most of what that guy is peddling as “the future of Scotland” is comprised almost entirely of wishful thinking.
My only real care about Scottish Independence is how much the rest of the UK will have to pay to bail it out when it desperately needs to re-'union-ise' itself in a few years time...
and all because wishful thinking got in the way of reality... when all three relevant political parties say you can have the pound, then you cant have it.
If a Spanish politician tells you that Spain will veto Scottish inclusion JUST to protect itself over Catalonia, then listen... because that was what he was really saying.
This is getting better and better and better:
Feb 18th, 2014 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So we have no “sterling zone”. So Scotland will have its own small volatile currency.
In response, Salmond threatens to default on Scotland's share of the UK debt. We now have Scotland with its “small volatile currency” as a known defaulter, with only limited or perhaps no access to the worlds bonds markets....Argentine style.
Then we have the Eu saying that Scotland becoming a member is in no way guaranteed.
So we have a small volatile currency, no access to the international bond market and not a member of a major trading block.
Oh...and in defaulting, it has alienated its largest (by far) trading partner, who will be looking to buy their goods from just about anyone else.
So, a small volatile currency, no access to bond markets, outside of the Eu, with a collapsing trade with its largest partner.....
Better and better and better.
And then, just after independence, the Shetland Islands give notice that they want to return to the UK...taking the North Sea reserves with them....
Oh PLEASE PLEASE VOTE YES....! It's gonna be hilarious!
You know it makes sense, Highland Clearences, Culloden.....FREEEDOOOOM!!!! Lol....lest we frakking forget...LMAO.
@ 30 Monkeymagic
Feb 18th, 2014 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is hilarious I have to admit, especially if the yes get it.
Dear me, they always blame the English for their perceived “problems”, bit like the argies really, but this will be a FUBAR of EPIC proportions, and who will they blame then?
I wonder who will get Nessie?
@30 I agree, hilarious! But there are other things Salmond “promises”. “Dual nationality”. “Freedom of movement”? From a non-EU state to an EU member? “Free trade”? From a non-EU state to an EU member? Anyone noticed that only a colony can claim a percentage of the imperial state's assets? Not that it will necessarily get them. Here's a thought. Scotland says “You owe us 9% of your assets”. UK says “Come and get them if you think you're hard enough”. UK outnumbers Scotland 10:1. Without Wales or Northern Ireland.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hello Scotland. Ever heard of treason? Fun thought. A vote? Democracy. Penalty for treason is death. For each Scottish vote, the English get 10!
@31 Scotland will get Nessie. Then she'll EAT them!!
Isn't Nessie dead - no sightings for 18 months.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is tragic that the people of Scotland are being sold an emotional fairy tale by a man only concerned with his own fame.
Personally, I consider Scots to be intelligent and canny when it comes to fiscal matters. They already have their own parliament why squander security for a fantasy.
Another option would be for Scotland to use the US dollar like Panama. This makes sense when Scotland's chief export oil is already priced in US Dollars.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Salmond made it clear with his second class degree in Medieval History and Economics, that he thinks England/Wales is going to be very poor with exceptionally low growth so it would be unreasonable to expect the English/Welsh to provide Bank or monetary guarantees for a wealthy and vibrant Scotland following independence.
Whatever Scotland chooses, the next Calcutta Cup is going to be interesting.
In other words…. They would be another liability for the German tax payers so they don’t want them. Laws would be a minor obstacle if there is political will to add in Scotland
Feb 18th, 2014 - 04:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway the E.U is finished. It will only conserve a nominal representation power .
Just to be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with an Independent Scotland, in fact I believe it could be beneficial to both parties...however, Salmond is selling a myth.....it is perfectly conceivable that Scotland could model itself on Norway...it's own currency outside of the EU with oil and gas revenues to bolster an economy.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is not Salmonds aim. He wants to have his cake and eat it...cherry pick the best bits of being in the uk, and the best bits of being in the EU, and leave the bits you don't like behind.....and still pursue the socialist, tax and spend and borrow borrow borrow policies of the Scottish Blair/Brown governments.
It is lunacy.
I hope they vote for it...I could use a good laugh at the “anti-English” brigade when they get what they want!!
Mr Unelected
Feb 18th, 2014 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0President Jose Manuel Barroso
This has nothing to do with you, so keep[ your nose out [ please]
..
Sincerely hope the SNP fails.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UK is better with all it's people's and I am sure there are malevolent forces out there (ThinkVoice for one) hoping for British disunity and weakness.
Salmond (and ThinkVoice) knows how enticing it must sound to say the Scots can just vote their way to slipping their head out of the noose of National Debt.
He does a disservice to all Scots as well as the UK.
Some very ill-informed or uninformed comment here today. Default? Scotland cannot default on the UK debt as Scotland does not have any debt, it belongs to the UK. This is a legally established position not my opinion. Get over it.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The SNP are using the offer to accept a proportion of the UK debt as leverage in the event of independence and are already blaming rUK for not accepting their position on currency sharing as the reason for not accepting to take on the debt. A small country with very healthy economy and no debt or default, sounds good. Good politics eh! Osborne has backed himself into a corner here.
Mr Barroso has been censured by the EU commission who are distancing themselves from his remarks (BBC Scotland this evening).
The EU membership question was debated this afternoon in the Scottish parliament. No-one from any party suggested that Scotland would not gain access? why? Apparently there is no EU legislation covering the situation that might arise in the event of Scottish independence. Nothing to say it couldn't happen so the possibility of setting precedent is clearly open in a (supposedly) democratic and legal entity. As I said if a non democratic, separate state can gain access within three months(by joining a member state!) why not Scotland who already meet all the criteria for membership, has a positive balance of trade surplus and resource rich? The currency issue is of course yet to be resolved but at present I think the SNP (not Salmond) are happy to sit it out and let the capital roll in.
#30 In case you have not managed to read my previous posts there are at least six possible positions on currency so far as I know (can you name them, if not you should probably not comment on things you know nought of)
conqyboy - go back to sleep where your ignorance is best hidden.
Some very ill-informed or uninformed comment here today. Default? Scotland cannot default on the UK debt as Scotland does not have any debt
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Point of order,
England cannot default on the UK debt as England does not have any debt,
Wales cannot default on the UK debt, as Wales does not have any debt,
Northern Ireland cannot default on the uk debt, as northern Ireland does not have any debt,
So what do you do with this hilarious situation where England Scotland Wales and northern Ireland have no debts,
The UK have all the debts,
So can we than not all have independence, leave the UK?
And then make the UK bankrupt; get rid of 1.5 trillion of debt,
And we can all start again debt free,
Just a simplistic idea..
what you all say...lol
That confused me too. Should England walk away from the union and leave Scotland, Wales and and Northern Island with the debt? Sounds like a plan.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0apparently,
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0England has every right to walk away as well,.
this is apparently true..
39. Your logic is very Argentinian.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and that is not a compliment
We refuse to pay our debts because, it's not ours, we didn't sign them, we don't recognize them, it wasn't us, look the other way, ignore it and it will go away, we can't pay it we don't have the money, on and on and on.
@41 Alas, Scotland, if you believe that, has beat them to it and called “Dibs!” Too late England (and Wales and Northern Ireland) you're stuck with the tab! But yes, Salmond hasn't really thought through this plan thoroughly enough and when he does he want the perks but not the dues... But I have enough faith in the Scots electorate that they'll see sense and stay with the UK -- and I suspect that a lot of the independence folk are secretly banking on that.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On a lighter note,
Feb 18th, 2014 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No pun intended….
Alex Salmond claims he has every right to use gym he’s no longer member of
Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond has rejected claims by Virgin Active that no longer being a member of their club means that he can’t use their equipment any time he likes.
Salmond told reporters that it was ‘incredibly arrogant’ of Virgin Active to think that just because he cancelled his membership that he no longer had a right to use treadmills, bikes and attend classes whenever he wants.
He went on, “I have been a member for many, many years, so why they think everything in the club is for the exclusive use of the remaining members is completely beyond me.”
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“I contributed to that club, and just because I decided to leave doesn’t mean I should lose my right to go in there and put my sweaty paws all of their kit as I see fit.”
“I can’t believe they called the police when I tried to take that rowing machine back to Scotland with me.”
“Such arrogance, and the people of Scotland will back me on this, I am quite sure.”
Alex Salmond club membership
Members of the health club have reacted with surprise at the sight of Alex Salmond trying to unscrew equipment from the floor of a club he didn’t want to be a member of any more.
Long time member Simon Williams told us, “Let’s be honest, he was never that enthusiastic a member any way, so I’m not surprised he wants to leave. He was fun at the social events - that man certainly likes a drink – but that was about it.”
“If he wants to stay as a member then I’d happily have him on the cross trainer next to me, like any other member.”
“But if he insists on leaving then maybe he should think about heading to Argos to get one of those cheap European knock-off exercise bikes.”
“I hear they’re very popular on the continent.”
http://newsthump.com/2014/02/17/alex-salmond-claims-he-has-every-right-to-use-gym-hes-no-longer-member-of/
....
Correct, Scotland has no national debt! if so how much and who owns it? The UK national debt held by the Bank of England on behalf of the UK or if not who? The Cons/Lab/Libdems have decided that an independent Scotland should not have access to the assets of the bank of England (despite it being founded by a Scot and paying into it since then). If the rUK govt has the power to deny access to the BoE and exercises that right, then Scotland is not obliged to accept any of the debt as it would in no way be connected to the BoE. England could try and walk away from the BoE but there's a clear problem. The BoE is central to UK monetary policy. If England wishes independence from anyone, that's a matter for England. Always happy to chip in with an opinion though.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you'll find the SNP want to pay their dues but are not being given the option to by refusing them possible future access to an organisation Scotland has contributed to for about 300 years. they have always said they will take their share but they are rightly saying we'll take our share but not for nothing. Quid pro quo as they say. the Westminster government and their lackies really don't like having it stuck to them by us regional types eh!
39
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In other words a Constitutional moonlight flit.
Can see this turning very nasty.
Briton
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The problem was...part of the assets of the club belonged to him and the club said they were not prepared to share those assets with him and then had the cheek to ask him to pay some dues back that were owed...
In the end he simply stated no membership ....no debt...you can't have it both ways...
I agree that sounds fair don't you think...?
@39
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Go ahead and default on your debts if you believe they aren't yours. It's a hilarious idea
Then go and try and borrow some more...see what response you get....defaulters rates.
@39
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Steuart (Interesting Spelling)
You are signed up and sold to the SNP manifesto of denial and bluff. You are i'm afraid going to be one of a large number of Scots that are going to look incredibly stupid in September.
Do you honestly think that the EU are going to endorse and sanction a breakaway republic that thinks it will be able to sail right into the EU without any of the set down conditions that every member has stated must happen.
Did you hear the Sturgeon woman on the BBC in reaction to the Chancellors statement on the pound. She was asked about joining the Euro by the interviewer and replied “the scottish people dont want the euro”. I laughed my uncontrollably when I heard that. How do you think that statement will go down in Brussells? If anyone has got their ear to ground in the EU it is Barrosso, and he gave you a great big clue the other day “you are going to find it difficult if not impossible to join the EU”. Why do think that Osborne, Balls, Alexander and Barrosso are all wrong and bluffing, but Salmond is right?
Don't be in any doubt that a great many people in England, Wales and NI are extremely pissed off about all this. At a time when we should all be working together to get our economy back on its feet, we are having to deal some fringe movement and one man's ego generating a whole world of unnecessary trouble for the UK.
Steuart...is Scottish spelling ...Stewart is Scottish spelling and Stuart is French spelling...
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 049
....there is no default...an Independent Scotland has no debt...it felt obliged to contribute only if the UK asset BOE was shared.....the UK doesn't want to share a UK asset, so Scotland doesn't feel obliged to honour..UK liabilities....
UK liabilities...not Scottish liabilities..
NO DEFAULT...
@51
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have changed your tune, it was only the other week you were shouting from thr roof tops that the UK government had not stated that Scotland could keep the pound. And now you have been told its all about walking away from the debt.
You are making it up as you go along mate, just like Salmond.
Can we predict anymore changes in stance?
I guarantee you that Salmond makes an announcement that Scotland will take its share of the debt - I guarantee you. The consequences of not doing don't bare thinking about for Scotland.
Can we expect another transmogrification from you at that point?????
As a unionist I say,,,
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You cannot walk away just because of bad times,
When willing to stay at the high of prosperity,
Britain will grow again,
Scotland will vote in September
And the future will be set,
But I do ask,a little known future ,
The Unmighty EU run by the two power houses of France and Germany, want the same thing,
This is not theory but fact,
And all new members will adhere to this future, [ if they get there own way]
1, united Europe
2, one flag, blue with gold stars
3, one coinage [EURO]
4, one banking union
One European Army , Navy , And Air force
5, one government
6 one foreign secretary
7, one president [Unelected ]
8, one peoples [EUROPEAN CITIZENS]
9, No, independent countries or governments
Thus one and only one country
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Part of the united kingdom of great Britain,
Or part of a future European union.
A truly independent Scotland will not in my opinion exist,
Now you can all rubbish it if you want,
Its just an opinion,
I want a united Great Britain…
...
48. That has to be the stupidest analogy I've ever heard! Congratulations. Your ranking right up there with Axel and Toby now.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Defaulters rates it is then 8-10% on new Scottish government bonds...with their nice new volatile currency, and not in the Eu nor trading with England....
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Better and better and better....
54
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0....too much for your stupid Yank brain I see...the club was the UK the asset the BOE
The UK doesn't want to share the asset
...so Scotland will not honour the liabilities (Club dues)
How STUPID are you ....ya dumb Yank....????
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please, please, please go and crawl back under your rock. No one and I mean NO one believes anything that you say ( unless they are on your payroll ).
North sea oil and gas is a UK asset....blah blah blah.....
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL...
Defaulters rates
Volatile currency
No EU membership
remainder of the UK looking to trade with almost anyone else
Gordon Brown style socialist, tax, borrow and spend...
Better and Better and Better.
Now England, remember what happened with Ireland...and when you were in so deep you had to bail them out....learn that lesson...don't do the same with Scotland...Independence they want.....independence they shall have
Freeeeeeedooooom!
52
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No tune changing...last week the UK Govt hadn't said that Scotland couldn't use the pound...
It changed the other day....
BTW.....The UK Govt still haven't said that Scotland can't use the pound...they have said no monetary union..there is a difference....
Anyone can use the pound....
56. yes I knew what you were talking about
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and I stand by my post
dumb as Axel
60
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah we all believe you...everything has to be spelled out to you ...you stupid coke sniffing waiter....now clear off from subjects you know nothing about....
Get back to your Argentina bashing....and sugar buying advice...numbnuts...
“In case there is a new country, a new state, coming out of a current member state it will have to apply” said EC president
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This man is an 18 carat, 4 berth, water tight, sea going idiot.
In other words the “EU” is his club and if your names not down, you ain't coming in.
Camer-moron is no threat at all. It's this idiot that could wreak Scotland's independence dream.
He really is a T-WAT.
#51 spot on! Glad someone can get their head round that very simple proposition. Also well done with the moniker, you are confounding our keyboard intellectuals today!
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think the problem is people south of the border don't really get what Scotland's about or the SNP for that matter. How was it a fringe party get to its current position? In my opinion, the centralised system of govt in the UK has mostly contributed to this. Its amazing how people in England put up with it. Again following these terrible floods we see that if your not in the south, you do not matter. If projects like HS2 were so critical to the whole UK economy why not start it in Aberdeen and work south. No lets start in London and if we run out of money, billions more will have been invested in London and paid for by the rest of the country providing jobs in the process. As long as a UK govt can keep employment up in the SE and keep property prices rising, they will have the vote of one third of the electorate. The North of England and the rest don't matter as they are not Tories. The Scots are all too aware of this whether they support the union or not. This how we have got Scottish parliament. England should wake up. The Cons/Lab/Libdems think they are dictating to the SNP when they are being worked like fish. The SNP only have to convince a majority of Scots and any discord between them and Tories in particular is going to be to their advantage. They are revelling in this and the other Scottish political parties are in hiding. They know Westminster has lost the plot. The only person from Scottish lab/Con/Libdems to have openly spoken about this is Alex Salmond's predecessor, Hendry Mcleish (Lab), who said Osborne's comments were inflammatory and would cause a backlash against Lab/Con/Libdems. The SNP are creasing themselves with the stupidity of Westminster. They may even contribute to the UK national debt by way of thanks . I think the SNP have been biding their time for this to happen.
may one ask a silly question,,,,
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0who owns the royal bank of Scotland,
and is it Scotland's ,national bank ,
of till tomorrow people.. wife calls..lol
63
Feb 18th, 2014 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are right ...Salmond when all is said and done...is a canny politician....
Labour and the rest made a huge mistake......
They have shown themselves over the monetary union to be anti Scottish...they are finished in Scotland whatever the vote...
.....that leaves...the SNP.....only
Word at street level is all about the betrayal by the parties and not so much the currency...
They will never understand......
61 A_Voice / Think
Feb 18th, 2014 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, you are a one ain't cha Think?????
You're a real card, a right ol' hoot huh Think!!!
Lets do a quick count up shall we?
Yankeeboy has been right........how many times????
Saw exactly where argentina was going didn't he?
and you have been right about............nothing at all, zero, zilch
So you will pardon me if I take his word over yours won't you?
And if you don't pardon me, I really don't give a f**k.
Lots of love
the U.K
@63
Feb 18th, 2014 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are making the common arrogant Scottish mistake.
We only ever hear from three corners of the square...Scots that want to leave (Salmond), scots that want to stay (Darling) and English who apparently want Scotland to stay (Cameron)...
There is a huge and growing fourth group...English who want Scotland to vote yes. Recent polls suggest this is a bigger % than Scots who will vote yes...and certainly a much bigger number of people.
You don't get it mate....we don't want you!
You snivelling, whinging...anti-English, boring droning dogma.
We don't want monetary union with you.
We don't want Gordon Brown.
We don't want Scottish MPs voting on English only issues.
You think we were going to beg you to stay...laugh my arse off.
Have your new country...
Defaulters rates
Volatile currency
no EU membership
Reduced trade with England.
And most people in England won't even notice you are gone...unless they fancy a bottle of Glenmorangie and see the price has gone up...
#12
Feb 18th, 2014 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you are mistaken here about Scotland pushing for a Union against England's wishes.
I would recommend watching BBC i player on the Stuarts episode 3 from about
51 minutes. Dr. Clare Jackson of Trinity college, Cambridge gives a very lucid account of the Act of Union. She gained her doctorate on royalist ideas in late-seventeenth century Scotland . As such, she is an undoubted expert on the subject of the background to the 1707 Union.
Her summation is that England needed it as much , if not more, than Scotland because of the Royal succession when Queen Anne died.
#32
Seems fair odds to me.
#63
As far as the floods go, areas in the N.E. of England have been badly affected. Wasn't Hull also flooded.
I watched a BBC program interviewing people from these areas telling their story. They were bitter that they were getting no money from the Treasury to help but the South were promised as much as they needed.
Certainly seems like a N/S divide.
68 Clyde15 (#)
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am sorry sir I will not argue with you or the good Doctor. I am being mischievous of course in saying that England and Wales were reluctant, in truth I expect all concerned were reluctant.
My point is that Scotland was never forced into union by the English, the decision was mutual and Scotland adopted Sterling, was able to distribute her debt and had unfettered access to previously unavailable markets.
51 A-Voice
Feb 18th, 2014 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Steuart...is Scottish spelling ...Stewart is Scottish spelling and Stuart is French spelling... ”
63 Steuart
“#51 spot on! Glad someone can get their head round that very simple proposition. Also well done with the moniker, you are confounding our keyboard intellectuals today!”
“Och no!!!” * mimics Scot in best 'Bean' voice*
Now A-voice/Think is playing Scot-puppets!!
A-VoiceofThink,
Didn't anybody tell you wearing your pancho with a
kilt just looks silly???
He WILL try anything!
Jesus wept...
Frankly it is remarkable that the “Scots” when push comes to shove, when they have clearly lost the debate they turn into Argentinians.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Weird.
71 yankeeboy (#)
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:20 pm
SOME Scottish nationalists perhaps but not all and certainly not Scots in general.
We all know which ones I am referencing.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 070
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry, my iPhone Auto-correct made a gaffe.
““Och no!!!” * mimics Scot in best 'Bean' voice*
Now A-voice/Think is playing Scot-puppets!!”
Should read “ ...best BEANO voice”
70
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0....no one listens to your opinion Troll Tempest...because you never comment on an article all you do is make snide remarks and cry puppets....
That's great from the only person with a puppets name.....
Funny if you look at 46 and 48 we both said almost the same thing....why would anyone bother going to the trouble of repeating themselves.....you really are a paranoid stupid Brit Wannabe...
You just find it difficult to understand how another poster pishes all over you and the rest of the forum by stating the obvious....
You have no comprehension of the Scottish psyche or even the English psyche quite simply because you are neither....
So you do what you do best...inanely babble at the sidelines....
Your names not down...so you're not coming in.....none of your business...Canadian.....
I'm sure Steuart has been on here longer than me......
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/05/02/foreign-office-and-parliament-plan-strategy-ahead-of-scotland-s-independence-referendum#comment244123
If I had existed on this forum at that time....you can be damn sure I wouldn't have let that particular debate pass without sticking in my tuppence worth......
Well Troy, A_Voice may or may not be whom you portray, but I have to credit him with more insight into what's going on in Scotland than most people who are posting. Ranting is fair enough but when people present opinions that are so far removed from fact, its a bit embarrassing.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take Monkeymagics comment about Scots voting on English matters. Fact is SNP MP's don't vote on English only matters as a matter of policy. Scottish Lab/Con/Libdem vote as they are told by the whips (aka the leaders of these parties) in Westminster as all these parties as based there. Therefore they vote as the English party leaders tell them. Take this issue up with them, not the Scots or SNP.
RBS like Bank of Scotland is mostly owned by the UK taxpayers, Before that they were completely private organisations with most of their employees based outside Scotland (in London and other parts of England) although their headquarters are here.
My instinctive feeling is that I would support the union, however since the tories and their new friends in the labour and conservative parties have decided to renaige on the agreement to not set preconditions (for example refuse to contemplate a monetory union before its been debated) I wonder what else they will renage upon? Only natural really. They are playing games they don't really understand with the union. If these are the best he UK can manage to defend the union, rUK would be as well giving up now. You have a coward of a PM who is too scared stand up to Salmond and face him on the debating floor and now Ed Milliband jumps into bed with him. And you wonder why there is threat to the union. Thatcher and even Blair would not have thought twice.
73 yankeeboy (#)
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:29 pm
Fair enough.
51 A_Voice (#)
You know it's funny how, despite the SNP threat to walk away from its share of UK debt that the markets haven't shuddered a little. Not even a bit. In fact investors haven't so much as batted an eyelid.
Now I've always said I'm just chewing the cud and I'm no expert but if they thought this was a) likely or b) a problem then surely this close to the referendum we'd be seeing some kind of movement in the markets in response to all this but no. Nothing.
If I was a betting man I'd say that the treasury has had a word with 'the powers that be' and said don't worry. If the Scots say yes and the Scottish government reneges on its debts we can cover it. It will slow us down a bit but we'll recover.
Stability is the key here.
It will be interesting then to see what the markets have to say following this hypothetical event. If a newly independent Scotland comes out of it with a clean bill of economic health then yes. Technically there was no default. If they come out with a newly minted junk economic status then technically there WAS a default.
It isn't up to AS or the SNP to say. They can 'do' and then see what the markets say but they cannot say anything is certain. Especially not things beyond their political control. They can't tell the English what they can and cannot do for example, not post independence.
77
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's a reasonable thought you have....but the reason is..a few weeks ago the UK Govt stated that they would guarantee all the debt whatever Scotland does....
Mystery solved......
Well then there you go. You were paying more attention than I was. Have a lollipop.
Feb 18th, 2014 - 11:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why would anyone go from being one of the richest most powerful countries in the world to being below Pakistan?
Feb 19th, 2014 - 12:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0This debate is very strange.
Its like Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire breaking off the USA. I just don't get it. What's the point?
They could survive on their own but why would they want to?
80 yankeeboy (#)
Feb 19th, 2014 - 12:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't have any answers, like everybody else I only have opinions and I love you guys, that's why I come here and read all of your crazy sh1t and offer up my own crazy sh1t once in a while.
My dad is from Glasgow and he is a c#*t but my aunts and uncles think so too and they are all great, so are my cousins, some of them will be voting yes in September. There's no trumping about it, families aren't split, that's just BS. It's just opinions. One of my uncles said what's so bad about wanting to be independent? Nothing of course but he also said what you just said, almost. Why do you want to be independent?
That's a trickier question and again I don't have any answers, just opinions and that sums it up I suppose. Some people are of the opinion that Scotland should break away from the UK whilst others..........beg to differ.
Opinions.
My opinion is that Scotland and Wales and N. Ireland and England should be free to make their own choices but if they choose to leave then the the power they once had over the others is gone. There's no bullying about it. You have to be in it to have any control of it and the currency that Scotland joined in 1707 was not theirs.
It originally belonged to the English and it became British and my argument now is the same argument I used during the Euro debate. With regard to currency union you can called our currency whatever you like. Call it the grote if you want to and put a picture of Micky mouse on the front. So long as only we control it I don't care.
After which a post independence Scotland can have the pound if they want it but they can't have the English grote and they will have no control of my Micky Mouse currency. And why would you want to any way?
But that's just my opinion.
@76
Feb 19th, 2014 - 07:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0You seem totally bewildered by it all.
Perhaps the question should be reworded.
”should Scotland be an independent country....with its economic, fiscal and monetary policy controlled by England (because we a shit scared to go it alone) and its social, environmental and agricultural policy decided by the Eu....and have no foreign or defence policy”
Please vote yes or no!!!
LOL.
As far as the UK debt is concerned, it doesn't matter if the rest of the UK pays the debt if Scotland defaults. It is irrelevant...Scotland will still be seen to have defaulted...nobody will lend them a penny (or whatever new currency they have) at anything but Latam rates...LOl
This is fun...wish we had popcorn.
6 LEPRecon (#)
Feb 19th, 2014 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0you said “ No money, means no way to pay craftsmen”
the Scots know how the system works “Adam Smith” isn`t an Englishman nor are his teaching reserved to them exclusively.
the Bank of England by a Scot
and Sterling ,
as for Scotland starving this is from the people in the time when they removed all the wheat to England when the Irish were starving in the potato famine? the myth of English benevolence failed the Irish or was this a mistake in English policy? Save the Scots starve the Irish?
!“So saved the 'sob' story, it isn't true, it never has been, and it never will be”.
Aye right! how ungrateful the world is to the English eh?
#82 Monkeyman!
Feb 19th, 2014 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thequestion has already been decided, they cant change it. The SNP have won that fight nearly a years ago.
There is no Scottish default, no access to BoE for Scotland means not ACCEPTING to take a share of the debt held by the BoE = no interest payments on £140billion for Scotland. Just the sort of start a newly independent Scotland needs! Not the sort of start the rUK needs though. Perhaps they might want to talk to the Scottish Government and see if something can be agreed. The Scottish government want to talk but Mr Osborne and the Westminster clique have backed themselves into a corner and will be seen as weak if they change tack. The SNP must be in need of medical help to stop their convulsive, collective laughter. How did this happen? Westminster is too arrogant to concieve that politicians who have been there have learned a couple of the lessons on their game. The only way to prevent independence is to reform Westminster and have policies that balance out the benefits of the UK across the country not just concentrate everything in the SE. But the Westminster hogs will not remove their snouts from the trough and we'll blindly meander to the destruction of the UK. Shamefull!
Even The Cunt Brown © Jeremy Clarkson 2010 has come out for the NO vote by suggesting the Scots will not get any pensions if they vote Yes.
Feb 19th, 2014 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But he is a cunt after all, so what does he know?
@84
Feb 19th, 2014 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have been lied to STUART.
It doesn't matter what your dopey SNP morons have told you...the debt belongs to Scotland...if you DEFAULT....the rest of the UK will (and can) pick up the tab.
This is fine...you have no debt.
BUT as a defaulter you will have no access to the bond market...try it...we dare you.
Who wants to prevent Independence??? We want you to go!!
The power is in the SE...that made me laugh a LOT!!!!
Scotland is less than 10% of the UK population...so 1 in 10 Prime ministers should be Scottish, 1 in 10 Chancellors, 1 in 10 Home Secretaries, 1 in 10 foreign Secretaries....
How many is it?
2 out of the last 3 Prime Ministers, 2 out of the last 3 Chancellors, 2 out of the last 6 foreign Secretaries, etc etc etc
Scotland has had FAR FAR TOO Big an influence on UK politics....for FAR FAR too long...with far far too much pandering to their anti-English whims.
#69
Feb 19th, 2014 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You could say the English were paying “Danegeld”to head off the Scot's Parliament.
Queen Anne had no offspring to inherit the throne. On her succession she declared she was entirely English - not a popular move in Scotland.
However, by the Act of Settlement it was confirmed that no Roman Catholic could inherit the throne. This partly placated the Scots. On Anne's death,
England would invite the Elector of Hanover to take the Crown -( “the wee, wee German lairdie” in Scot's parlance )
Scotland said that they would not accept a German as King. They would have a Protestant King of their own choosing. So, the United Kingdom would fragment.
The English feared that the Scots may align with the French and allow an invasion of England through Scotland. Big Trouble !!!
The failed Darien scheme allowed England to find a solution by injecting cash into the Scottish economy, allowing free trade, and the Scots got to keep their religion, law and education system. Everyone was happy....or not !!
As an afterthought, I was looking at a publication in Sainsburys about monarchs and Emperors. The part dealing with the UK Monarchs from Queen Anne onwards referred to them as English Kings and Queens - no mention of the UK.. Also, the term for the UK was England - Scotland was subsumed under this title until well into the 19th century. It still exists to this day when many people in the press and media use England for the UK. How would the English feel if they were continually called Scots ? Many countries think England is synonymous with the UK.
#86
Who voted them in ? The English ! Why have the Scots had too much say in in UK politics ? Because the English politicians are THICK ?
The English have the majority of MP's in all parties. Why did they elect “Scottish” Prime Ministers and allow the PM to chose his cabinet without dissent?
I can only assume that they were the best he had to choose from. It doesn't say much for the quality of English MP's. !
And in the meantime, Spain again is taking the piss,
Feb 19th, 2014 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And what does our Cameron with no backbone do,
makes another complaint,
that's abt the 100th complaint and still they take the piss,
perhaps we should put Spain in its place, now,,,
then concentrate on September,
just an opinion.
Clyde
Feb 19th, 2014 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You agree then, excellent..Scottish MPs have been far over-represented in the top jobs, which is the exact opposite of what Stuart was claiming. It doesn't matter why, it matters that Stuart was talking bollocks that Westminster was controlled by the SE of England, when for the majority of the last 20 years it's been controlled by Scots....
As for the quality of English MPs, I know which I'd choose between the Scottish lot that near bankrupted the country and the English lot trying to pay it all back...
The Scottish Parliament, just like the Welsh Assmebly and the London Assembly are democratic insults. Blair believed (wrongly) that if he set up regional assemblies in Labour strongholds, Labour would hold power even when it lost a General Election....he didn't count on Boris and Alex.
Why no regional assemblies in Tory strongholds???
Interesting Gordon Browns view on National Insurance and pensions....surely if Scotland defaults on the Uk debt, the rest of the UK gets to keep all the National Insurance pot for their pensioners....and Scotland starts out with a massive (MASSIVE) liability...to go with its volatile currency, inability to issue bonds, and non access to the EU.
This is getting better and better and better....
Mankeymagic! we have lost it haven't we! Thank you for spelling my name incorrectly but given the frothing drivel coming from you, I should expect nothing less really. Got to agree with Clyde about the quality of English MP's though.The SNP have them spinning at Westminster and some of the electorate seem to have been caught out too! All too easy but if you took the time to view the situation from up here, I'm sure you would agree the outcome was fairly predictable.
Feb 19th, 2014 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0English assemblies, regional or otherwise, are a matter for the English people to decide. I think they would help the democratic deficit so apparent in England West of Heathrow and North of Watford.
Sorry your not able to appreciate the difference between UK sovereign debt and the zero sovereign debt of Scotland. This simple proposition would surely make your rants seem more rational. NI contributions? Is there a pot or have we already spent it? Something else to negotiate about if it comes to that. Interesting how you like to wheel out a fellow Jock's opinion when it suits you though. Especially when you whinge about their ability to do the top jobs Whats up, can't you find a quality English candidate? Trident submarines and bases on the Clyde, also something to negotiate if it comes to it I suppose.
All to play for I suppose.
Oder 1001 I can see that you are trying to be dispassionate and clear headed but you are not really succeeding.
Feb 19th, 2014 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Steuart you are just a Malvinista troll. You had me to begin with but I know who and what you are now so I realise that a meaningful discussion is impossible with you.
Clyde you are starting to get emotional. The Scots have been trolling the English for centuries I can't see how you haven't noticed that but you are quick to accuse the English of trolling the Scots. You're also starting to talk utter tosh which is a shame. My experience is that you are much better than that.
Monkey Magic You're just an English troll. Please clarify your posts with something like 'this is just my opinion' or 'I don't speak for the rest of the UK when I say...........' Or some such.
Conquerer. Yes....... Well.............. You don't speak for me. Just so as you know.
And none of you have any of your facts straight either.
Enjoy your time together. You deserve each other.
#89
Feb 19th, 2014 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No.I did not say that the Scots were over represented in top parliamentary posts.
As far as I am aware, there are no quotas for these positions. They are presumably filled by the candidates the PM thinks best suited. If this results in an“ over representation” then it is up to the majority of English MP's to make their feelings known. They could then draw up a system based on ethnic origin. Black MP's, Muslims and women should all be picked by positive discrimination, not merit. for cabinet posts. Do you agree ?
Also, for your information, the PM, Foreign Secretary and Chancellor are picked for the UK parliament...not for Scotland...and carry out their duties for the WHOLE of the UK.
If the Defence Ministers , such as George Younger, Malcom Rifkind , George Reid, George Robertson and Liam Fox, were pro-Scottish, they would have done away with Trident and nuclear weapons at the request of the Scottish electorate.
91 Furry-Fat-Feck (
Feb 20th, 2014 - 08:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well of course I am! in its entire history England never did any one wrong they got done over by the Scots the Indians, the Irish the French , even in a parliament when only after an English vote a Scot can be promoted to prime minister obviously could not find a Englishman suitable for the job, what a bunch of misfits... don`t you agree?
@90/92
Feb 20th, 2014 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0oh dear oh dear...
First “stuart”s claim that westminster was dominated by the SE of England bias...and this was a “justification for independence”
When it was pointed out correctly that if any regional bias existed it was towards Scotland...this apparently is because Scottish MPs are more capable.
What a laugh you guys are.
So, if there was, as Stuart claims, a SE England bias now, perhaps that'd be due to the quality of MPs for that area...of course not...its some anti-Scottish agenda....LMFAO...
have you heard yourselves...bonkers, and hypocrites.
STUART
You are not able to distinguish between UK sovereign debt and Scottish debt...wait and see after you default.....NOBODY WILL LEND YOU A PENNY.
Your ranting that it wasn't a “legal default” wont cut it with the money markets...its 10% plus bonds all the way...LOLOLOL
Nothing needs to be “negotiated” Stuart. The reason being LOONY SCOTTISH NATIONALISTS like you are a tiny percentage of the Scottish people. Most are embarrassed and ashamed of Salmond and Sturgeon as you will find out in September.
Never mind though...its an hilarious What if???
What if Scotland has no currency union, what if Scotland cant borrow a dime on the bond markets, what if Spain or the UK veto its EU membership, what if there are no public sector pensions....
Its hilarious STUART>>>and all the while England wont even notice.
Calm down Manks me boy, you'll do your keyboard an injury! And no need to shout!
Feb 20th, 2014 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0SE Bias yes, does not necessarily mean independence? Not sure where that came from.
Regional bias towards Scotland, nice thought but not happening. Que Barnett Formula rant.
Perhaps you dont understand sovereign debt belongs to a state, as there is no Sovereign Scotland, how can there be sovereign debt.
I have worked out the problem with the calibre of English MP's, its because like you they can't even spell someones name when its written in front of them.
I dont really mind what you, as spokesperson for England, notice. In this capacity, has Scaredy Cameron asked you debate with Alex Salmond? Its what happens up here that will determine my future
STUART
Feb 20th, 2014 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Simple then
North Sea oil belongs to a state...the UK...there is no Scotland
The NI contributions towards public sector pensions belongs to a state...the UK..there is no Scotland
In fact, ever single asset currently owned by the UK government, every piece of military hardware, every piece of hospital equipment, every school desk, everything...all belongs to the sovereign state of the UK...there is no Scotland.
The fact is that all of this asset was paid for by the UK taxpayer, and an amount of accrued National debt.
If you take none of the debt...you get none of the asset.
David Cameron is the UK Prime Minister, it is only in your warped deluded views that he is the person who should be debating with Salmond.
If anyone it should be Alastair Darling...who seems to be running the No Campaign
Should be a good debate, one loony Scottish politician who has no idea how to run a countries economy...talking to another who already destroyed one.
Alex Salmond seems to have fooled you again on that one...hes desperately trying to make it a vote on whether you want “English tories” or the SNP running your country...this is hilarious.
However, of course what should happen, when you shit your pants and vote No...(Which you will)....we should actually start the sensible discussion.
Maximum devolution of power and an acceptable answer to the West Lothian question.....same for the Welsh.
Then...you get your own assembly looking after the vast majority of your business (BADLY).....and we get to avoid any recurrence of the Scottish Socialism that nearly bankrupted the country...
However, should you all vote for Independence...itll be carnage...and you will get exactly what you deserve....a horror show
Simple to you manly monk, yep, North Sea oil belongs to the UK. There is no Scotland? Add geography to spelling lessons - check. You baling out like , Cameron? I think if there was a credible alternative to the SNP a no vote would be assured. As I said previously, the failure of the UK parties to do anything other than tell us the sky is falling on our heads.as it stands I'm converted to the Yes camp at least until an alternative appears. So I'll enjoy my jam tomorrow old chap.
Feb 20th, 2014 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#91
Feb 20th, 2014 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I note your comments. Of course I know that some Scots have been trolling the English for ages. Most of it unjustified. However, the English have been doing it back over the same period. The difference being that they are much more subtle in their method. Nuances, the use of England for Britain is common up to the top of society and politicians.
You say I am emotional. Of course I am ! When I read the poison against my country not just the SNP- promulgated here and in sections of the press, I would not be much of a human being if I was not. I can understand a rational argument and see different points of views BUT when it gets into a hate campaign my blood gets up. There are sections who hope that any attempt at a reasoned split up of the UK goes disasterly wrong and that Scotland goes down the tubes. They wish this as an act of vindictiveness and wish to turn us into the most hated nation, lower than N. Korea. Block any attempt at joining trade deals EU membership. NATO, UN membership etc.
My thoughts on independence were no. I considered myself British and felt that at my age, it was not for me to commit the future generation to this course.
Now, it has been pointed out that I have been tolerated JUST by the great English people as long as I knew my place. I have now had my eyes opened and probably will vote yes. Who wants to be associated with neighbours like that
As to talking“tosh” yes I have purposely done that on exchange rates to elicit a rebuttal.
Maybe you would be so kind as to point out the other inaccuracies that gave rise to your remark.
Clyde
Feb 21st, 2014 - 07:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are talking rubbish mate.
The idea that Scotland is “tolerated” by England is ridiculous. The evidence suggests that Scotland gets a very beneficial deal from the rest of the UK.
You dismiss the evidence that there has been a huge over representation of Scots in Westminster top jobs as “they must have been the best”, maybe so...but it's still true...instead of 10% it's nearer 50%.
To dismiss the idea that having a Scottish Parliament and then Scottish MPs in Westminster voting on English and Welsh only issues as “the fault of the political parties” maybe so, but it's still true...can you imagine the opposite...Scots not being allowed to vote on anything in Weatminster, but the English holding the balance of power in Holyrood....there would be a riot!!!
The vindictiveness is coming from Salmond and Sturgeon. Sorry you can't see that. We want this, we want that...if you don't give us exactly what we want we will default on £125bn of debt that the Scottish people have benefitted from. Hardly constructive.
Tell me, when has any UK politician made a single anti-Scottish remark...never? Yet Salmond and Sturgeon spew anti-English bile every time they open their mouths.
Perhaps, like you, that annoys the English..who believe Scotland gets a pretty decent deal out of being the UK.
If Scotland becomes independent, under Salmond and Sturgeon and “goes down the tubes” I am certain it will be the fault of the English “vindictiveness”. LMAO it always is...never the fault of the Scots..Luther are so cuddly after all.
#99
Feb 21st, 2014 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0No, you are talking rubbish , mate.
Any owe no political allegiance to the SNP.
You are quoting Salmond and Sturgeon and then extrapolating their wishes and ideals as representing the whole of Scotland. That's rubbish. In showing your intense dislike for them, you are heaping this onto the entire population of Scotland. Maybe you should go back and review your posts. I will try to be charitable but I have come across this attitude for decades on a personal basis.
Over representation of Scots. As I have pointed out already, why is this. and so what ! You are inferring that they have only Scottish interests to follow, not the interests of the UK. Are the Scots SO superior to English MP's that they can take the top jobs over them. Is it some “Celtic ”plot ? The bulk of MP's are English--explain Scottish over representation. Osborne is Scottish, Cameron is one removed from Scottish...are they beating the pro-independence drum ?
You are talking about the West Lothian question. I agree. I think you will find that the SNP did NOT vote on English questions. Again,the English MP's have the majority in the UK parliament----GET THEM TO SORT THIS OUT !!!
No UK politician has made an anti-Scottish remark ? Possibly not in Parliament but I have heard it in programs such as Question Time and other political discussions. The press are even worse ....feather bedded, scrounging, contribute nothing etc. Kelvin Mackenzie borders on the racist anytime Scotland is mentioned.
You have not read my post carefully and noted that I said CERTAIN SECTIONS ON THIS FORUM AND THE PRESS WISH Scotland harm and this “discussion” has given them a chance to air their latent prejudices.
Your last para. I am pleased to see you agree. As to “Luther are so cuddly after all.” the meaning of this escapes me.
Clyde
Feb 21st, 2014 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0I dont know whether or not you are married, but I will give you a challenge.
- Go home tonight and tell your wife that you want a divorce
- Tell her she is lucky to have had you, and that you believe youd be better off on your own
- Tell her your existing relationship is unfair, and you could do better
- Then tell her that unless she agrees to the exact terms of your divorce settlement, you will stop paying your share of the mortgage (which she already contributes more to)
- Finally, dont forget to offer her “Stuarts deal”, if she is prepared to negotiate a “better marriage” youd consider staying...but you have to do whats best for you.
i don't know your wife Clyde, but i am imagining she wont be getting down on her knees begging you to stay...in fact if she had any self respect she'd give you a two-word answer.
-She may point out, as is her rights, that she brings a whole lot of benefit to the marriage.
-She may point out that perhaps you might like to look at your behaviour too.
-She may point out that any divorce settlement WILL NOT be completely on your terms, and she intends to keep the house, the car and the holiday home in Inverness
-She may point out that should you divorce, you will have to wash your own underpants, and all the other stuff she does for you.
I certainly wouldn't consider her “vindictive” in pointing this out to you...in fact I would consider it remarkably restrained.
However, try it tonight, see how you get on...let me know.
#101
Feb 21st, 2014 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't accept your analogy.
As to “Luther are so cuddly after all.” the meaning of this escapes me.
Can you explain ?
Spunkmonkey lets rework the analogy at little to closer reflect the situation.
Feb 21st, 2014 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Situation : I've been having ltrouble with wife and we're not getting on well. Do I
a. Tell her to F Off and I want access to the joint bank account.
b. Because, I care, I sit down with her with no preconditions, ask her what she thinks is not right in the relationship. Tell her what I think is wrong. Then try to move things around a bit so that which is a source of conflict is removed or avoided and hopefully resolved. Showing both that I still love her and that i'm really interested in keeping the relationship going and willing to compromise to acheive this.
Which would you choose?
And if me or the wife decided that compromise was fine as long as I dont use anything that we jointly built up together, do you think this would help or hinder the chances of a successful compromise?
Perhaps you dont have a wife?
Stuart
Feb 21st, 2014 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL
What a loon...
Independence is divorce...and YOU not us have put it on the table. So your analogy is bullshit.
Give us exactly what we want...and we may not divorce you...but we still might...that is your compromise?
The sitting down with no preconditions has started years ago, the barnett formula, the Scottish parliament, the ignoring of the West Lothian question...all attempts to appease your whims...never enough though.
So..when has Scotland ever shown its willingness to make the relationship better...where is there a single issue where Alex Salmond has offered anything other than divorce ON HIS TERMS.
Nope...you want divorce...and you can have it...vote yes.
We are kind enough to say vote no, and you can come back and we will continue to negotiate a better solution.
But dont think you are getting the divorce on your terms, we will negotiate what suits us...not you.
Your problem Stuart is you believe Scotland is owed something, and the current situation is unfair.
I completely and totally diagree, if anything it is unfair in Scotlands favour.
Independance is Independance...divorce and you are the same to us as any other European country outside the EU...Albania perhaps.
Hey Spunkeyboy, we are bitter little englander are we not. Next time you are dsicussing the independence referendum with Scaredy Cameron pass on my regards and tell him we miss his fireside talks on whats good for us lol.
Feb 21st, 2014 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As Clyde says, scractch the surface and the true character of little englanders like yourself becomes apparent. I thankfully know too many decent open minded English people who are at least intelligent enough to appreciate differences of opinions. But there are those who can see no wrong in the green and pleasant land and hate anyone to suggest that all might not be well playing cricket on the village green or drinking warm beer. I've never heard the sound of leather on willow but then I dont live where you do and my views reflect that. Sorry if its too much to bear.
105
Feb 21st, 2014 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've seen plenty of cricket...surely you must have....
http://www.cricketscotland.com/clubs-page/competitions/csl/
Even if you are rural...surely you have travelled...about Scotland...?
Strangley I have seen it at a distance and a colleague actually plays. But I'm pretty sure i've never heard willow on leather or whatever! Lol.
Feb 21st, 2014 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Monkeyboy, In Scotland a 'Loon' is almost a term of endearment where the word is used. Another example of things being completely different when view from another place. Or if you meant it that way, thank you.
Meanwhile, in the real world;
Feb 22nd, 2014 - 03:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0a note on Venezuelan 'democracy'
The PSUV is the 'ruling party'.
Rafael Ramírez is the president of PDVSA. (the Nationalised Oil Company).
He is also PSUV Minister for Energy and Petroleum. (Oil represents 96% of foriegn exports and is therefore almost the only source of $US.)
He is also PSUV Vice-President for the Economy.
So technically one of the most powerful men in Venezuela.
He recently stated that he will bring peace and stability by denying gasoline supllies to the staes of Merida and Tachira (where protests have been most vehement).
What a w*nker!
Anyone reading this, could this happen in your country? (Argentina excluded for obvious reasons!).
Buck
Stops
Here
Also, just to keep you informed!
--- Official Bolivarian ‘Wonderland’ Exchange Rate in Venezuela ---
BCV 6.3Bsf / 1USD (SICAD 11.3Bsf /1 USD)
----Today’s Reality Cheque --- The ‘Lechuga Verde’ or ‘Blue Dollar’
87.71 Bsf / 1 USD
116.99 Bsf / 1 Euro
See http://dolartoday.com/
Brought to you by Ilsen Publications ©2014 (*because dolartoday.com website is blocked in Vnzla by the current ‘administration’/dictatorship and the Press are banned from reporting it)
No apologies for going off topic, and why? see this!
http://dolartoday.com/
#108
Feb 22nd, 2014 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0I couldn't get the video as it was blocked. However, it puts our petty squabbles in perspective. We at least can argue without getting shot !
(109) Clyde15
Feb 22nd, 2014 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good thing for the Sassenachs that there was no Youtube under the Highland clearances.......
I just clicked on the video link above and it worked fine.
Feb 22nd, 2014 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Have another try!
Xx
#111
Feb 22nd, 2014 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is what I get when I try the youtube reference.
Content Warning
This video may be inappropriate for some users.
Sign in to confirm your age
A google account is required to see this video. I don't have or want one
I have a Google “gmail” account, so it worked fine.
Feb 22nd, 2014 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Shocking, but, Well worth watching - thx ilsen.
BTW, your government seemed to be very well prepared for the “Clampdown” - media control, armed thugs on bikes
@105
Feb 24th, 2014 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It seems that you know “open-minded” Englishmen who appreciate a difference of opinion...but however you do not afford them the same courtesey.
You are staunchly defending a completely asinine position and are not open to debate it...just to repeat it.
Cameron is completely within his rights to have an opinion as to what is best for you...he is Prime Minister of your country, like it or not. Just as Gordon Brown was within his rights to destroy the economy on what he perceived to be right for me.
The only person who absolutely isn't within his rights to comment on what is best for me is Alex Salmond. Yet he continues to do so.
Dictating to England the terms of his divorce.
So, I am afraid Stuart...you are the “little Scotlander”...always feeling like you are the victim.
Yet all your complaints are far more applicable to Scotland than England.
Scottish politicians (Salmond) are far more dictatorial on what England “has to accept”
Scottish politicians are far more guilty of inflicting unpopular politics on England than vice versa
And so it goes on...
The image of England playing cricket..so what..I just cheered on a bunch of Scots playing curling..theres only one rink in England and very few play. Its irrelevant, when Sir Chris Hoy is in the GB relay team do you only cheer his third?
There are plenty of regional differences and plenty of similarities...obviously not apparent to a “little Scotlander” like yourself.
The only aim is for these regional variations to be fair. Scotland already has a massive preferential democratic advantage borne out of the West Lothian question, prior to that the Barnett formula offered a similar over-representation.
Rather than naval-gazing and blaming all your woes on the “English Tories”, perhaps you should look closer to home. Scottish socialism.
However, should you wish to proceed with the “divorce”, it will not be on “your terms” and will unlikely be amicable...the loser...usually the smaller partner.
Oh Monks you are entitled to your opinion and I can respect that but its when I notice fallicies like those in your last post its only right to point out those inconsistencies.
Feb 24th, 2014 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. Mr Cameron is right to have an opinion. If he truely believes in it, perhaps he might like to defend the strength of his opinion in an open debate. Alex Salmond has been baiting him on this again today. But perhaps he does not feel up to the challenge of standing up publically for his beliefs?
2. The SNP are not dictating the terms of their divorce. They are setting out their position and have invited Westminster to discuss this, which when dealing with the currency issue in particular, they have refused to do.
3. The West Lothian question is one solely for Westminster to discuss, not Scotland. It was recognised by a Scottish MP in the late 70's and Westminster has decided to ignore it even until now. Scotland does not decide on how England or anywhere is governed. So seek the solution from your local MP and good luck with that.
4. Independence or not, the Barnett formula was made up at Westminster. It is for them to reform it. However, if you are going to totally reorganise the Scottish budget, it would be courteous for this to be negotiated and any settlement should recognise differences in the economies.
5. Unfortunately, if you ever studied the UK constitution, it is based on the theory of supremacy of parliament. The Scottish parliament does not make laws applicable to other parts of the UK. On the other hand, Westminster makes laws that can apply to all or parts of the UK. Who then dictates to who?
6. I am not blaming all Scotland's woes on Englands Tories but it appears they are able to maintain a parliamentary majority so see the above. Unfortunately the Tories (and I respect many of them) do not go down well in Scotland and Tories from England who take it upon themselves to lecture the Scots go down even less well. Sorry but thats an easily predictable fact.
It is down to Cameron if he wants a TV debate with Salmond...why should he...he is certainly NOT obliged to. In fact leaders massively ahead in the opinion polls (as Cameron is) have historically avoided such things.
Feb 24th, 2014 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You deliberately avoid the key point Stuart.
Just 5 years ago, we had a Scottish Prime Minister. He represented the Labour party who would not have won the previous general election with English constituencies.
Scottish socialists do not go down well in England and those like Brown who take it upon themselves to lecture (and near bankrupt) the English go down even less well. Sorry but that's an easily predictable fact.
And therein is why your argument is rubbish, for every claim you make about English bias in Westminster and under representation of Scottish views, there are ten cases of over-representation of Scots in Westminster and Scottish bias in Westminster.
Sorry you don't like it...sorry it doesn't meet with your prejudice...but it seems the fallacies are all yours.
As far as “not being prepared to negotiate goes”.....that made me laugh a LOT!! What ridiculous rose tinted spectacles you have...Salmond assumes everyone will give him exactly Weat wants...first time all parties say No...he threatens to default on Scotland's share of the UK debt.
And you happy clap him with ridiculous phrases like “it's the UK debt not Scotland”
The UK debt (together with taxation from the UK people) has funded hospitals, schools, roads, prisons, military, etc etc throughout the UK...to pretend Scotland isn't liable...and to have cretins like you happy clapping is both reckless and dishonest.
Worse, it will keep Scotland from having access to the international bond market for a generation.
Keep happy clapping....keep swallowing it whole...good luck...you are going to need it.
Cameron should debate if he truly believes the Union is worth saving. He is the leader and if he's sure of his position, he should have no problems. To not do so shows he is not sure of his position and therefore weak. Simple. Cameron is not massively ahead in any opinion poll in Scotland. He's a tory coward and is probably viewed as such up here.
Feb 24th, 2014 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All Scottish prime ministers in history have been elected to that position by a majority of English MP's of their party. All Scottish MP's at Westminster who represent English constituencies were elected by the party members in that constituency. They were elected to their positions by English people, presumably as the best candidates for the job. We have covered this already. General elections can only be won by English constituencies. It is effectively impossible for 58 MP's of varying Scottish parties to form a government at Westminster. If you do not believe this, could you please provide a single example. I you do not, then clearly you do not know what you are talking about. If this was your 'key point', it was poor.
You have blamed Gordon Brown for England's woes. A bit hypocritical when you accuse me of blaming English tories. You may accuse Brown (and he's not on my xmas card list either), but did the financial crash not originate in the US and spread here? That is my understanding. What happened in the UK followed on from this. You may have noticed most EU countries also had major problems.
On 13.1.14, the treasury took the step of guaranteeing ALL the UK debts. Feel free to check. If they did not ALL belong to the treasury, why did they accept responsibility for them rather than say 'except for Scotland's debt'? Please answer this point if you are able.
I am not happy clapping about anything. My stated preferred position is as a unionist. However, none of the unionist parties have done anything to convince me that they are capable of representing Scotland at Westminster rather than the other way round.
Stuart
Feb 25th, 2014 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Please make up your mind..Cameron is either the face of the No campaign (and therefore should be debating with Salmond) or he isn't. if he is the face of the No campaign, then he is miles ahead in the opinion polls. So is he or Not...he says he isn't its Alastair Darling.
Seems like you just want an unpopular English Tory as 2the face of the No campaign” as you are terrified of anyone else.
Indeed Scottish prime Ministers are elected by English MPs. THIS DESTROYS YOUR ARGUMENT that there is a SE England bias in Westminster, as they continue to elect Scots into key positions. I am sorry you are too dense to see this.
Indeed, just as you blame English Tories for your woes, I can blame Scottish Socialists...if my position is hypocritical, yours is worse.
The UK treasury will guarentee the UK debt. This doesn't stop Scotland being labelled a defaulter. This doesn't stop the bond market not trusting them...suck it and see.
The Unionist parties over-represent Scotland in Westminster.
You dont really have an understanding of the politics of the UK despite living here do you Manky. Why is this? Perhaps you are a Malvanista Troll?
Feb 25th, 2014 - 10:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Before directing you to a copy of 'Janet and John go to parliament for the day' I will teach you a lesson, listen closely, you might miss the point.......All MP's elected to ANY constituency are accountable to that constituency and to the party they belong to, not their own nationality! Did you get that or shall I say it again more slowly? On this point can you tell me the number of Scottish MP's in English constituencies? Thought not, thats called dogma, where you present your opinions as facts regardless of the truth.
Whether you like it or not Westminster is not the English parliament it is the UK parliament and therefore what happens in there is a matter for the UK.
The UK is not a campaign, neither is the issue of Scottish independence. It is a little bit more important than that I would guess. The pro-independence campaign are fronted by the leader of the Scottish Government, who is also the party leader for those seeking independence. Would the leader of the UK stand up for the union, no! Instead we get a back bench MP from a minority party. Indeed one of the people you blame for the mess that is UK plc. Suprised you have not been able to see the irony of standing up for them. Perhaps your really a socialist who think Labour did a great job last time round. If not why not?
What are the opinion polls saying where you live and could you please provide a source? Again a little englander with much to say about something they nothing of.
I note you are unable to provide an instance of a Scottish majority government at Westminster
If the UK have accepted the UK's debts are theirs to guarentee, how can someone else default. I'm not responsible for your debts but if I tell everyone I am, then you have an argument for getting me to pay and you off the hook for your debts....without default! See what I did there. Easy!
Stuart
Feb 25th, 2014 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You claimed:
The UK Government in Westminster had a SE England bias, and under-represented Scotland. You used this “argument” to justify why people would vote “YES.
I have proven that no such SE England bis exists:
For every example you have given about a SE England bias at Westminster I have shown you ten of a Scotland bias.
You excuse for this Scotland bias is that the English electorate has ”supported it“...So fucking what...it still exists far more prevalently than a SE England bias.
Your hypocrisy is gob-smacking..
First you don't like an English Tory having an opinion...then you don't want a Scottish Socialist having one....
As far as the debt is concerned...currently it is a joint UK debt. if Scotland default on their share, but the remainder of the UK pick it up...it doesn't negate the fact that Scotland will have defaulted.
The money markets will see it as irresponsible by Scotland and hike up their lending rates, and further evidence of fiscal responsibility by the UK to support its AA/AAA ratings...try it and see, the markets will treat Scotland as a pariah defaulter.
So, there we go Stuart. I haven proven that if a regional bias exists in Westminster it is towards Scotland and not the SE of England. You are yet to show a single example of a SE bias, yet Ive listed plenty of Scottish over representation....HYPOCRITE
You have stated you hate being lectured by English Tories but desperately want a English Tory to come up and ”lecture you”...HYPOCRITE.
You fail to understand that if you have a joint debt and you default on your share, just because the other party pick up your share to avoid a joint default...YOU HAVE STILL DEFAULTED...
I know these three concepts are above you head...perhaps because you are a bit thick.
I have not justified why people would vote yes. i have stated why I think more people in Scotland will vote yes. whether this leads to independence we shall see.
Feb 26th, 2014 - 09:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0You have not proven there is no SE bias. You have not given me a single instance and indeed admitted that the recent flooding was an example of SE balance. You said that. I shall throw in HS2, the Olymics (£13bn investment in London), the channel tunnel as example. If you cannot, by your own calculations give me thirty examples of a Scottish bias, then I'll take it you accept the SE bias. Listen again little englander, it is impossible for 58 Scottish MP's to hols a majority government in Westminster (clue : there are about 630 MP's in total). I have no interest in who constituency parties in England elect to contest elections, that is a matter for them and their conciences, not mine or anyone in Scotland. Interestingly there is a programme on terrestrial TV next Monday about this subject. I shall try and watch this. You may wish to?
Currently the UK debt is not 'joint', it belongs to the UK alone. Given this fact, how can anyone other than the UK default on the UK's debts. This is clearly flying over your head. The money markets speak for themselves, I dont and you dont speak for them unless you are not telling us something.
In short manky, read my posts again and if you are able, give me some facts and I will try to respond. You have singularly failed to do this in every post. Please do not give us your tired ill formed opinions that have no basis.
You have clearly not grasped the difference between the words 'like' and 'want'. Please refer to a reputable dictionary if you know what one is.
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