MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Cry for Me, Argentina
Veteran New York Times reporter and columnist, Roger Cohen, who on several occasions has visited Argentina recently called at Ushuaia. He wrote the following piece, which is not very enthusiastic about the current situation or the heavy burden of populist history in one of the richest countries of the world. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesSo to encapsulate all that nonsense, same shit different decade. But next year a progressive and democratic island nation will be drilling their own oil and all they can do is sit and watch and make idle unenforceable threats.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 04:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well written, eloquent, succinct and spot on !! Take note people of Argentina, reality rears its ugly head.....
Mar 01st, 2014 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0I love his analysis of where SA countries are headed, its accurate to a tee. The puzzle is why can't the inhabitants see it? Meanwhile little Chile is in the fast lane overtaking them all because of its outward looking attitude. Ushaia is a dump, the end of the world in so many ways.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0TWIMC
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Who does this ”veteran New York Times reporter and columnist”, Roger Cohen, youngish English journalist of White Zuid-Afrikaner Jewish extraction represent?…
He’s born and lives in London…
He is Pro Anglo invasive policies in Iraq…
He is Pro Anglo invasive policies in Afghanistan…
He wrote a “bubbly book” on that great American hero and Arab subduer, Gen. Schwarzkopf…
He thinks that Rupert Murdoch has been ” Good for free societies for the past several decades ”…
In short, an ”Anglo System Journalist”, correspondent in Argentina some 25 years ago, who parrots the tired old clichés of the Anglo corporations, the Anglo Business press and the Anglo Right-Wing ideologues who are upset with Argentina’s policies for many reasons…
They don’t like any of the left governments that now govern most of South America, and they would like to get rid of all of them and return to the world of 30 years ago when the Anglos were in the drivers’ seat…
This humble Patagonian geezer will now have the audacity to answer some of this ”Anglo System Journalist” tired old clichés against Argentina…:
1) ”Obsessed with a lost little war in the Falklands (Malvinas)” he says…
- I say…: Not more ”obsessed” than having make sure that it won’t happen again… The Malvinas will be reincorporated to Argentina by peaceful means…
2) “A century ago, Argentina was richer than Sweden, France, Austria and Italy”, he says…
- I say…: Some fifty Argentinean families were, indeed, richer than Sweden, France, Austria or Italy… The rest of the Country was immersed in deep misery and inequality…
3) “...solid institutions and the rule of law - let alone a functioning tax system - seemed a waste of time”, he says…
- I say…: Well…, the “solid institutions, the rule of law and the functioning tax system of our current Administration seem to be the “Exact Thing” the right wing reactionaries inside and outside Argentina are so butthurt about...
Not content with having sentenced most - - - - -
Continues...
“a strange mishmash of nationalism, romanticism, fascism, socialism, backwardness, progressiveness, militarism, eroticism, fantasy, musical, mournfulness, irresponsibility and repression. The name it gave all this was Peronism.”
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0A great direct hit with one exception.....remove the military as kirchner has. Is it not ironic that they hate the military so much considering that Peron was in the military himself and become leader from a coup? One more adjustment in that paragraph........hypocriticism......now that describes peronism and and corruptism.....and their is kirchnerism.
Continues from (4)...:
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 03) Not content with having sentenced most of the top brass of our previous Armed Farces to life-long jails sentences through an exemplarily though lengthy judiciary process...., our present Administration in Argentina has also had the “Chutzpah” to tax the rich !!!
4) “Twenty-five years ago I left a country of hyperinflation (5,000 percent in 1989), capital flight, currency instability, heavy-handed state interventionism, dwindling reserves, uncompetitive industry, heavy reliance on commodity exports, reawakening Peronist fantasies and bottom-of-the-world complexes…. Today inflation is high rather than hyper. Otherwise, not a whole lot has changed.”, he says…
- I say…: “Otherwise, not a whole lot has changed” ???
- Just conveniently forgetting that eleven years ago unemployment was nearly 50%... Against the ~7% of today…
- Just conveniently forgetting that eleven years ago our “Foreign Debt” was ~300% of our GNP… Against the ~25% of today…
- Just conveniently forgetting that eleven years ago nearly no “Argentinean Armed Farces Officers & Criminals” were incarcerated… There are over 600 of them swerving long sentences today…
5) To end...., a bit of debunking of yet another example of the “Tired Old Clichés” from the Anglo Business Press and their sepoys …:
http://www.cepr.net:8080/index.php/blogs/the-americas-blog/wall-street-journal-trashes-argentina-based-on-wsjs-economic-error
Please don't bother 'continuing' your boring old diatribe. We've heard it all before.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your pointlessness doesn't improve with repetition.
Nor does it mask your obvious bitterness and jealously of developed democratic nations.
you are so very sad.
I 'Think' some folks vision is myopic. Perhaps that is because they don't actually live there? ”The Sepoys are hard at work sabotaging Argentina, its not our fault, its them, it wasnt us, everything will be alright once we successfully colonise those Falkland Islands and steal those other pieces of South Atlantic rock, you'll see“ How lame it sounds to compare the desperate times with the present when the present is getting fairly desperate too.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Meanwhile Maduro moves the holidays again to quell disent - nothing much changes.
Turnip at (7)
Mar 01st, 2014 - 11:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0What happened?
Have you run dry of false material from Venezuela to post and are now preoccupied with the “bitterness, ”jealousy“ and ”sadness” of a humble & old geezer from Chubut...?
Here, for your eyes only... Some more false pictures about Venezuela...:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/venezuela/140224/when-fake-or-old-social-media-fans-the-flames-protes
Chuckle, chuckle & chuckle ©
Think...you are a racist idiot. I believe its time for you and your cohorts (government in power) to wake up and smell the fires of discontent that are brewing under your nose. But, I guess you can't see the forest for the corruption.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Think.... keep your head up your arse. It will happen, it is happening in Argentina. They always say by ignoring the truth it is going to get worse.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ Think
Mar 01st, 2014 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You left a bit out on Mr Cohen
He criticized the Bush administration's handling of the occupation while still supporting the cause given the brutality of Saddam Hussein's regime. In January 2009, he commented that Saddam's “death-and-genocide machine killed about 400,000 Iraqis and another million or so people in Iran and Kuwait.” He wrote that “I still believe Iraq’s freedom outweighs its terrible price
Cohen wrote a series of articles for The New York Times in February 2009 about a trip to Iran. In his writings he expressed opposition to military action against Iran and encouraged negotiations between the United States and the Islamic Republic. He also remarked that Iranian Jews were well treated, and said the Jewish community was ”living, working and worshiping in relative tranquility.“ He also described the hospitality that he received in Iran, stating that ”I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran.“
Cohen wrote in January 2009 that the Israel-Palestinian conflict should not be seen by the United States as just another part of the War on Terrorism. He called for the ending of Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank and the ending of the blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Cohen opposed Operation Cast Lead, labeling it ”wretchedly named — and disastrous He has accused Israelis of the “slaying of hundreds of Palestinian children” in the campaign.[25] In a March 8 column, Cohen stated that he had ”never previously felt so shamed by Israel’s actions
Argentina besides being one of the richest countries in the world, is also one of the nicest.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We Brazilians are very proud to have Argentina as our best friend and ally.
And Mendoza and the Andes is the most beautiful region of the world.
Long live Argentina!
@4 Here's a “tip”, Twink. Get your head out of your arse. Although I recognise that you adore the odour and the taste.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 01) “Obsessed, reincorporated”. If you have an overwhelming urge to go blind watching nuclear missiles explode over the “country” you don't live in.
2) Not OUR problem. Quit blaming others for your incompetence.
3) Yep, 84% inflation is wonderful. Why don't you live there?
@6
3) Except itself. Did you notice that 4) is supposed to come after 3)? Ignorant, brain-warped old git.
4) Yep, conveniently forgetting the debts that argieland doesn't admit. Like US$100 billion from the early 21st century. Plus all those court judgements.
And just conveniently forgetting that it shouldn't be 600 in prison. More like 600,000. Being whipped every day. Until they beg to be hanged.
Never mind, sluggard, we'll get you in the end!
@9 Faggot at (9) Been there? Of course not. Bet just the thought has brown stuff dribbling down your legs.
@13 Hang on to your memories. argieland will be DEAD soon. Any thoughts about the best places to create craters? And Brazil won't be far behind. The UK mounted the 2012 Olympics without any sweat. Brazil is shitting buckets to manage the little World Cup. Brazil should just accept what shit it is. Maybe in a hundred years!
Looks like the old racist from North Europe is a bit upset the truth I have been proclaiming is making into the main street media.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I knew when reality interfered with the fantasy talking points the rgidiot trolls would go ballistic.
How fun it is to watch history repeating itself
40% inflation is just the beginning
Sugar rationing is just the beginning
7% unemployment was always a lie but wait for the car factories to close
Nobody really knows what the Foreign Debt will be after Arg loses in SCOTUS. It will probably be right back up there with many more lawsuits over the CER bonds to boot.
Silly old Marxists your too stupid to realize you've been fleeced again.
@ Comedian
Mar 01st, 2014 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brazil spent 30 years paying his debts. Today we are the most balanced nation in the world. World Cup and Olympics serves as an experience for us. Fits develop high quality projects for our companies.
I do not know any English company participating it.
New technologies are not offered to the enemy.
Brazil and Anglosphere are enemies!
London would be a good place for our atomic craters!
The article is spot on, the continual decline of the country for more than half a century has not being understood or recognized by society and politicians.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The first century of Argentina was one of the wealthiest and prosperous countries in the world. Its surprising that Twit talks about the poor of those days... Half of them were actually poor yes but they were form Southern Italy and Spain, if they worked hard enough they could enjoy a lifestyle that could not be enjoyed in their own countries. How much poorer they would have being from the serfs of zarist Russia or the factory workers of Victorian England at the time??
All countries at the time had massive problems at the time with social warfare, thats why communist doctrine was at rife in those days, and intrestingly enough it originated in the most industrialized countries like Germany, France and Britain at the time, not in agricultural Russia nor China. Other ideologies like anarchism and laborism were common.
Argentina's society has remained stagnated in the early and mid XX Century.
With all his faults and corruption im starting to understand that Menem's gov't in the 1990s was a breaze of fresh air in all of this history. What a shame.
To be fair Menem was of peronist origin but he was the only one to actually challenge the peronist dogmas and brush them aside for over ten years.
Brazilian Turnip at 16. Rios Mayor said to Boris “How on earth can we follow that? ” at the closing ceremony in London in 2012.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, here's how, use British expertise. http://news.bis.gov.uk/Press-Releases/London-2012-spurs-British-firms-to-go-for-gold-in-Rio-680c8.aspx
As for being enemies that is all in your racist mind! Actually, we are cordial friends.
17.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Until and unless you get rid of the corruption and the corrupt FAMILIES Argentina is doomed to keep repeating the past. Very high highs and very low lows with each low lower than the last one.
What the Ks did was not rocket science, they stole private money to grease the economy. It can be done but eventually the money runs out. It ran out two years ago.
Your next generation will be poorer and dumber than the last.
and on and on
If you think 2001 was bad, as they say, you ain't seen nothin yet.
To understand the scale of corruption and lack of administration of the K years...Over the last 10 years 900.000 MM USD entered the Argentine state. Taxes have increased from 2002, 1600% inflation increased 600% in the same period. The defaulted debt of the IMF was forgiven in a 75% in 2005...So the debt reduction wasnt something that the gov't paid for.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yet we find ourselfs scrapping the barrel to find dollars to pay for gas.
Nobody invests a dollar in Argentina
Poverty is over 30%
Unemployemnt is round 25%
Inflation will be round 60% this year
Commodity boom is over.
Huge size of the state in the economy
Crime and insecurity is on rife
20. As more people lose their jobs and food/fuel escalates, crime will dramatically pick up like you've never experienced.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think everyone can feel the pot boiling
I am glad I don't live there
21
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0yep, Argentina never left the 2001 crisis, it simply had a mass flood of cash to mitigate it.
There is already a rising feeling of tension and distrust.
Social plans will not be enough to quell the criminals. It really looks bad
Yes, Peron and his whore have a lot to answer for!
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0IED=Investimento Externo Direto
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina received how much FDI in 2014?
Foreign Direct Investment.....IED
Mexico = 16 billions
Chile = 8 billions
Brasil = 66 billions
Argentina = ?
@24
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rio Olympic Park
http://www.dezeen.com/2013/09/03/rio-2016-olympic-park-by-aecom/
@3 “ The puzzle is why can't the inhabitants see it? ”
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has a totally different picture than the rest of the world. The official history is that Argentina was a de facto British colony, where everything was owned by the British and 5 guys who traded with them, and the rest was dirt poor, working like slaves. To 90% of Argentinians our golden age was Peron's government during the 40s and 50s, and our decline was caused solely by the neoliberal goverments of the 70s (the military dictatorship) and the 90s (Menem). Even as succesive governments wreck the whole place the people still hope for someone who can truly succeed Peron, and they will always believe in Peronism simply because the that is the society the vast majority of the people want, even those who think they aren't peronists.
@19 you sound like a broken record.
@24
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Beautiful!
@16 Brainless “nut” at 16. “Balanced”? You couldn't “balance” on something 100,000 miles wide. And, no, there are no English companies involved. If there had been, it would all have been finished by now. Perhaps you should employ some.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where would dumbos like you get “new technology”? Managed roller skates yet? Bicycles? Bicycles with engines? Tricycles? Carpets? Toilets? Faggots?
And I agree. All faggots are enemies.
Atomic craters? You have trouble producing a cowpat crater!
Do remember that we had to come down to teach you tossers how to get off a boat and plod across a beach. You're dead meat!
Oh Dear THINK, you have to admit, some of it is humorous...“Brazil is in the process of becoming Argentina, and Argentina is in the process of becoming Venezuela, and Venezuela is in the process of becoming Zimbabwe. That is a little harsh on Brazil and Venezuela.”— “to eat soup again, but this time with a fork“ and yet he captures the tragic dark side of your country with ”...I have a single emblematic image ...of the uncontrollable sobbing of Argentine women clutching the photographs of beloved children who had been taken from them for “brief questioning” only to vanish...“
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There's also a bon mot about a Santiagueño who goes to pay his respects to his old dying Argentine friend. The viejito makes the confession ”I spent most of the money I earned in life on wine and whores... The rest of it I squandered...“
In an any case, it's always fun to ridicule our Argentine neighbors... Perhaps because we've historically always been jealous.
It seems your nation is ”still drugged by that quixotic political concoction called Peronism” which is truly tragic.
MeThinks Think has been well and truly Thunk - again!
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A Giant Turnip in the thrall of fantasy....
Without missing with respect.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Eu sou o melhor do mundo em física quântica”!
26.I sound like a broken record because the story keeps repeating itself in that horrible place.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope the Venezeflu is contagious.
Only 40 cars were burned last night in BA
Think they can get it to 100 tonight?
(29) Chicureo
Mar 01st, 2014 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nice to hear again from you....
Expect all as well as the circumstances allow....
Of course the above article written by “Veteran New York Times reporter and columnist, Roger Cohen”, is humorous ....
One wouldn't expect less from one of the good “Anglo System Journalist Sepoys”, would one...?
Anyhow.... Imagine how dull and provincial life would be in Santiago, Pelotillehue, Chicureo and all the other sleepy Shilean towns without the magnificent Pathos provided by Buenos Aires?
The weakest argument is to attack the source when you can't refute the facts.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://tn.com.ar/policiales/madrugada-de-terror-en-saavedra-un-muerto-autos-quemados-y-destrozos-en-edificios_454207
Night a terror.
All is well, all is well, all is well
This couldn't be because food went up 9%+ last MONTH. Could it?
So 100% isn't hyper in that horrible place? Is it 200%?
think
Mar 01st, 2014 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0agree with most of your post at # 4 and 6.
this “veteran reporter and columnist” not only knows nothing about argentina, but also, like the ignorant he is, thinks that argentina was at its best during the período agroexportador and the década infame.
the ones benefited with all that shite were the european countries, most of all britain.
guess the imbecile should read a bit more about argentina during the informal british empire era, about the pact roca - runciman and about how the british farming companies appropriated half patagonia.
Argentinas decline since 1914 is unique and remarkable. Economists have explored the reasons for this decline for many years. See below for a recent NBER (National Bureau of Economic Research) published paper by Alan M. Taylor: The Argentine paradox: Micro explanations and macro puzzles.
Mar 01st, 2014 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://papers.nber.org/tmp/42739-w19924.pdf
A good Italian friend of mine has offered another insight. He notices that in Britain nobody ever talks about politics. You can spend a Saturday night going from pub to pub and bar to bar and witness all different groups of people in animated conversation amongst friends. None of them will be talking about politics. Almost no one is a member of a political party. Having a passionate interest in politics is like going to church; it’s just a bit weird. It’s not what normal people do. Political leaders are supposed to provide practical solutions to practical problems. Believing in political ideologies like socialism or neo-liberalism or Peronism or Marxism is a real turn off for most people. Political supporters don’t really exist in Britain.
Argentina is different. Rather than make a serious attempt to solve Argentina problems: the chronic lack of investment, the chronic lack of capital, corruption, bureaucracy, import and export taxes, crumbling infrastructure (especially in transport) politicians prefer to make speeches, they invent enemies. They attack “capitalism” (whatever that means) they appeal to base nationalistic instincts, and the people believe them! It’s incredible.
If people like Peron or Kirchner made the speeches they do in Britain, people would simply laugh, and then vote for more mature sensible people.
The question isn’t how Peronism wrecked Argentina, but how on earth people can believe and vote for this rubbish.
35
Mar 01st, 2014 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yep the more I read about the Argentina of the centenary the less I want to know about it... It just shows you how far we have come back from the golden era of Argentina to being a failed state and a hopeless country.
The only time the railways worked properly and did not cost as a cent was when they were run by the british companies. After the nationalization they became rubbish and a cancer for the public treasury just like Aerolineas and YPF did. FFS the British were the richest people in the planet back then, and they had the money to buy it. I prefer that 100 times that an Argentine steals hectars of land for $7,50 per hectar like Lazaro Baez and Kirchner did.
The same thing that what happaned with the trains has just being done with Repsol YPF. Till 2008 Repsol was investing and exploring in conventionals o/g in the country quite well, fuel prices were left cheap to the local market and the gov't couldnt resist and forcing in YPF local crooks Ezkenazi and Eurnekian to empty the company. After the company was in robbed with all this populist and demagogue rubbish.
@Chicureo / Think
Mar 01st, 2014 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some great honest self-depreciating Argie humour at Viña this week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Nn5KfRGoo
35 paulcedron
Mar 01st, 2014 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, yes, yes.... Roger Cohen is lying!!!! He actually hates argentina and everything argentine!!! He is just dipping his pen in poison and does not really know what he is writing about!!!
Go on, paulcedron, think, TTT you go on!!! Keep telling yourself that, hold on to your misinformed information!! Refuse to look at the facts!!! Go on telling yourselves that everything is ok!!!
Just a pity that the rest of the world can see what's going on in your country, and you can't.
35 paulcedron
Mar 01st, 2014 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Trade is a two way process. In the 19th and early 20th century, Britain imported vast quantities of food from Argentina, and in return Argentina received vast quantities of hard currency. It isn’t Britain’s fault that this benefitted a small oligarchic elite.
In 1900 85% of head of households in rural areas in Canada owned land. In the USA it was 70%. In Argentina the figure was only 10%. For example, after Roca had conquered Patagonia the Argentine government handed out all that land to a few hundred families. When the US government opened up the lands in the west it gave millions of acres almost free to thousands of ordinary, even really poor people. Argentina didn’t do this. Thus Argentina, by its own decisions created an aristocratic land owning oligarchy. It could have a created a land owning democracy whereby tens or even hundreds of thousands of ordinary people have a real stake in society, but they didn’t.
A few mighty land owners lived in gilded splendour in a sea of landless peasants. You can’t blame Britain for that.
I say I'm in favor of Argentina and go to war to defend it!
Mar 01st, 2014 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRXuS01JED0
40
Mar 01st, 2014 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have a point but all of Latam countries at the time had landowner oligarchs, that doesn't explain why Argentina alone accounted for half the GDP of the continent at that time. It doesn't explain why Argentina was richer than Sweden, Italy, Austria or France. Now its a smaller economy than Colombia or the state of Sao Pablo in Brazil.
I understand that the Republic of Texas gave vast extentions of land to a few cowboys at the time.
There is something missing in history about Argentina in the early century.
42 CabezaDura2
Mar 01st, 2014 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All that you say is of course true. I was merely responding to Paulcedron comment that only the British benefitted from Argentinas “Golden age” The age was dominated by agro-exports to Britain in the main.
No doubt economists and historians will still be debating the causes of Argentinas decline in 20 years.
It is of course a favourite of historians to compare and contrast the histories and development of the North American anglo-saxon countries of the USA and Canada with the Latin cultures of South America.
Can Argentina get back on track? I see no evidence that she will. The political culture of corruption and “clientism” is a big impediment.
Then again it is not my Country.
(36) rupertbrooks0
Mar 01st, 2014 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't know if it was intentionally or unintentionally but you linked us to an excellent paper about Argentinean Economic History...
After having spent a couple of hours reading, analyzing and comprehending it, I can highly reccomend it to anybody wishing to educate itself over the Turnip level about the issue...:
http://papers.nber.org/tmp/42739-w19924.pdf
tooold
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 12:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Refuse to look at the facts!!! Go on telling yourself that everything is ok!!!”
and who says that everything is ok??
i am the first in criticize this government and our current situation.
but that has nothing to do with the fact that this 4th class reporter knows nothing about argentina´s history.
the poor thing should try writing something about the u.s. or the u.k. instead.
rupert
the commerce agreement with britain was at least unfair.
or a scam, if you want.
again, read the treaty roca runciman as a small example.
44 Think
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes I am aware that it’s an excellent, well researched paper; that’s why I recommended it.
45 paulcedron
I was mainly referring to the “golden age” of Argentina, between say 1880 and 1914. This period was characterised by massive and sustained British investment in Argentina in railways, banking and insurance, meat packing factories, port facilities etc. The great Argentine boom, when the economy expanded by 6% per year for 40 years was largely driven by this imported capital. After WW1 this British overseas investment to Argentina dried up.
Historians still debate the Roca-Runciman treaty. It undoubtedly benefitted both parties although it may well have benefitted Britain more. You have to see it in the context of the times. During the great depression and the collapse in world trade there was enormous pressure on the British government to guarantee food imports and manufacturing and coal exports within “Imperial preference” (Canada, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand), thereby excluding Argentina. It was Argentina who petitioned Britain for a trade agreement.
Was the treaty “unfair” Yes I think it probably was. In difficult times Britain acted in her own best interests to get the best deal she could.
Would Argentina have been better off without it? Almost certainly not. What other countries would have taken Argentina beef and other food exports? Argentine wheat exports even increased a little; from a small base it is true, as the treaty excluded British tariffs on Argentine wheat.
From 1948 until 1974 the world experienced an economic boom and a massive increase in world trade. One reason Argentina did not benefit from this global boom was Peron’s economic autarky. The taxes on exports and imports excluded Argentina from this boom.
With the benefit of hindsight historians and others can see that other choices may have been better.
46
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 03:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Again the Treaty Roca-Runciman, nothing more than what we call today a bilateral trade agreement is regarded still as a “scam”. Its is one of this myths they created that occurred during the “infamous decade”. The term was invented by a throwback ultra nationalist peronist historian J.L.Torres to refer to the period from 1930 to the end of WWII when Peronism rises (as if Peron himself didn't clime to power during these years).
So therefore you can get an idea as to why Think and Paul talk and “think” like they do. They have being brainwashed. They have rebranded and remade history to fit in their agenda.
Therefore the Argentine the golden age was brushed and erased and it is remembered by the backwards peronist and leftists as the time of two or three oligarchs exploiting the poor masses. They consider 1946 as a fundational period of Argentina. It was not, it was the beginning of the liquidation of Argentina's wealth and future.
They have to blame other people...The landlord oligarchs, the british meat packers and Railway companies back then and now they blame the americans and Repsol.
Now how much does the country need to decline more for them to actually understand and admit they are wrong is beyond me.
sounds like he hit the nail on the head and on some Argentine nerves im sure anyone trained in basic psychology can see how “Obsessed” Argentina is with a few insignificant islands. Argentine Psychologists must be having a field day with this obsessive disorder.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 07:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina a sick country living in an old world!
just one mans opinion
UK Turnip at (48)
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 08:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0That's a bit rich coming from a man from the Old World's sickest Country...
@ 41 brasileiro - babaca!
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0What colour is your nose? Brown?
Errr. . Sorry, chief Turnip @49. Fail once again….
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10597418/UK-confirmed-as-fastest-growing-economy-in-Western-Europe.html
How do you get your UK news? Reading the Beano online perhaps?
@ papers.nber.org/tmp/42739-w19924.pdf
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0A well accounted for summary of the Argentine economy policies of the 20th century. It might explain half of the decline Argentina has experienced.
The other half is so politically incorrect (yet no less true) that no serious academic or politician would ever touch it: The Argentine idiosyncratic dishonesty, the acceptance of short-term patchwork approach to fix things and its gullible populace.
Argentina of today has leaders which only virtue seems to be their complete lack of inhibition against lying. They have, apparently, no sense of shame because no such sense has been instilled in childhood. This lack of shame translates throughout the country's institutions and the end result - when combined with the findings in the paper linked above - a highly corrupted society that doesn't advance.
Turnip at (51)
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't “Think” Turnip at (48) meant the “Economy” when referring to Argentina as a “Sick Country”...
Neither was I, at (49), when referring to the UK as the “Sickest Country”.....
Neither was I
Chief Turnip @53. In that case you must learn to express yourself better and seek treatment for your obsession. Dennis the Menace is better balanced. And, we all adore Lord Snooty thus reinforcing Argentinian prejudice.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0(52) Jonaz_BsAs
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say…:
”The other half is so politically incorrect (yet no less true) that no serious academic or politician would ever touch it…”
I say…:
Is that why we get an unserious Turnip like you commenting on that ”Other Half” of yours ???
@31 Probably best to recognise that few people besides yourself speak gibberish. It's for poor people.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0@35 Oh yes. The Roca-Runciman Treaty. That thing that came about after Britain decided to severely curtail Argentine beef imports in order to protect Commonwealth meat markets. To the extent of reducing argie meat imports by 5% each month? That meant that, after a year, argie meat imports would have been reduced by more than 60%. Seems reasonable. Protect one's own first. But wasn't argieland then guaranteed AT LEAST 390,000 metric tonnes of refrigerated beef would be bought by Britain? Didn't argie exports increase? Wasn't one of the considerations that British companies ensured the economic development of argieland? Trouble with you dumb argies is that if you don't “win” big time, it's unfair. Your Vice-president went to London to try to get a deal. He got one! Are you saying your Vice-president was a prat?
@41 Oh good. We can kill you legally. If you dare get off your arse.
@45 Whinger!
@52 Go for it, Jonaz. You've got Twinky worried. Ignore facts when you can attack the writer! Just remember that he's a psychotic, brainwashed, old git stuck in a single groove. If you “listen” carefully, you can “hear” when the needle jumps.
That rather dry tome left me cold. Whilst it identified some causes of Argentinas downfall and serial failures, it completely missed the real causes which are clearly the antics of a succession of incompetent populist politicians who have encouraged idleness and practiced corruption at all levels. Changing the moral compass of a nation is a difficult thing to do. Thatcher and Pinochet did it at massive human cost. Winston did it by leadership. Every Argentine failed.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Think
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0What I said is the damn truth, isn't it? Why don't you rather comment on the content than doing an “ad hominem” - albeit a very sweet one - no one has ever called me a “turnip” ;)
(58) Jonaz_BsAs
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
“What I said is the damn truth, isn't it? Why don't you rather comment on the content.......”
I say...:
¿ What “Content” do you want me to comment on...?
¿ That 25% truth blended with 75% exagerations you scribble at (52)...?
Listen lad...., I don't know what “Circulos” and “Sociedades” you frecuent in Argentina but......, judging byyour “No Honesty” “No Ethics”& “No Shame” description above, I would guess for the “Circulo Militar” and the “Sociedad Rural”....
Reference the sign that states that 'Falklands' has been under illegal occupation since 1833.'
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well that all ended in 1850 after Argentina ratified the Convention of Settlement/Arana-Southern peace treaty.
It is irrelevant that the treaty does not mention the Falklands. It does mention 'putting an end to existing differences' and 'restoring perfect relations and friendship.'
And during that period the law stated,
'The treaty of peace leaves everything in the state in which it found it, unless there be some express stipulation to the contrary. The existing state of possession is maintained, except so far as altered by the terms of the treaty. If nothing be said about the conquered country or places, they remain with the conqueror, and such title cannot afterwards be called into question. During the continuance of the war, the conqueror in possession has only an usufructuary right, and the latent title of the former sovereign continues, until the treaty of peace, by its silent operation, or express provisions, extinguishes his title for ever.'
(Page 238, Paragraph 1, Element of International Law: With a Sketch of the History of the Science by Henry Wheaton 1836).
And some people still believe that Argentina has a claim to the Falklands. Lol
Those monikers - very well deserved one's I might add - are directed at Argentina's political and business elite - a group I have had the displeasure of frequenting at a regular basis over the last 10 years. A real life anecdote to underscore my accusations:
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Once, at a meeting with high-ranked K officials, including a minister of the government (that will remain unnamed) , at the famous “El Rulero” building in Buenos Aires we were small talking before the meeting start. As some of you might know, El Rulero has a view at villa 31, one of the most notorious shanty towns, home to more than 100 000 people. While we were overlooking the misery just across the street, I commented, (in an intent of being politically correct, perhaps): “Such a shame...”. As a response a K business executive (one of the Lázaro Báez, Cristóbal López wannabees ) quipped: “Yes, it's a shame they don't burn the entire thing down”. To my great surprise, every K-person in the room - including the minister - erupted in laughter from this very tasteless joke on behalf of their core constituency.
That very day I understood that it was all a scam: Peronism, equality, redistribution of wealth etc. Everybody in the room was there for one single purpose: To enrich themselves as much as they possibly could and to not give a damn about their less fortunate compatriots. It was “Animal Farm” all over again.
Think…. Animal Farm….. lol! Which animal are you? As you claim to be in Chubut do you fear Mint Sauce? Four legs good, two legs baaaad….
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(61) Jonaz_BsAs
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 12:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't doubt for a second the authenticity of your real life anecdote (Except that Libertador is an avenue, not a street and they are also some fourhunderd meters of railtracks between the “Rulero” and the villa...)
A very bad and tasteless “joke” indeed... (If one chooses to call it a “joke”)
Anyhow, I could give you some of “my old real life anecdotes” from the Circulo de Armas and other “fine places” where similar kind of “jokes” were commonly uttered.....
The difference was............ They were no “joking”....
cabeza dura
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0i do not blame a group of oligarchs, i am not in favour of peronismo, kirchnerismo or leftist parties.
it has nothing to do with all that imbecile rethoric.
there were / are good and bad agreements.
the treaty roca runciman was, no doubts, a bad one, almost bordering shame.
not only for freeing of taxes on british imports, but also for not permitting the instalation of argentine meat packing industry.
add to that, that the whole transport chain was managed by a british monopoly.
now, guess you have to read a lot of books for understanding the differences between demoprogresismo, radicalismo, peronismo, izquierda, etc.
they are all the same for you, aren´t they?
@Think
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, I'd say they have almost “made good” on their promise: Inflation in February surpassed 5% (and 80% yearly) having a devastating effect on the poor, much like a raging fire.
64
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0paulcedron
LOL....
This is the typical kind of stuff people get used to saying in review of Argentine history. You dont even think properly the meaning of words and you end up lying.
The Roca-Runciman is not the only case of this, for it happaned to Peronist gov't themselves whenever they made business deals with big foreing companies or outsiders. The same shit mentality that Torres invented has backfired on Peronist gov't... You remind me of Pino Solanas.
“Ohh the PRIVATIZATION of YPF was a scaaaaaaaam”!
“Ohh the TREATY with Chevron is a scaaaaaaaaam”!
“Ohh the PRIVATIZATION of Aerolineas was a scaaaaaaam”!
“Ohh the PRIVATIZATION of the railways was a scaaaaaaam”!
“Ohh the Foreign debt is a scaaaaaaam”
Everything that is not done by the state nor worked by the state is a scaaaaaaam.
You say textually that the treaty “not only for freeing of taxes on british imports but also for not permitting the instalation of argentine meat packing industry.”
1) Rupert is right it was Argentina that called on the British to the deal, not the other way round.. Do you expect that they will not demand things in return??
2) Demanding that 85% of the packing was done by British frigorificos of the beef that was exported to the UK is light years of distance from “Not permitting the instalation of argentine frigorificos” The intentions of such a statement are to throgh mud at the gov't of the time and the British.
I've read it all, I believed it for some time, I have looked things from another perspective and now I'm seing it happen all over again.
Please negro...grow up
(64) paulcedron
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say (to Mr. Cabezadura)...:
”Now, guess you have to read a lot of books for understanding the differences between demoprogresismo, radicalismo, peronismo, izquierda, etc..... They are all the same for you, aren´t they?
I say...:
Now, Gorillas don't read books... Besides... bananas, mangos, papayas, ananas etc... They are all fruit aren't they? ;-)
(65) Jonaz_BsAs
Do you really need to be such a Drama Queen?
Why can't you “Anti Everything” be a bit more realistic...?
What do you “Think” you gain with those wild exagerations...?
@Think
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 02:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You just don't get it, do you?
http://www.pricestats.com/argentina-series
47 CabezaDura2
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You offer a very convincing account. I have some awareness that the treaty is still resented by some sections of Argentine society, although I am not familiar the Peronist historian J.L.Torres. It is of course a wild exaggeration to call the treaty “a scam”. In essence it isn’t greatly different from the Imperial preference trade agreements Britain signed with the dominions. However, as you say, for Peronists to blame the British of the golden age, the very people who built the country in the first place, for Argentina's problems is perverse
Facts do so often speak for themselves. The sluggish growth of Argentina in the post war years, relative to the rest of the world, clearly indicated something is going very wrong somewhere.
Many of the policies and decisions made by Peron must be seen as self evidently mistakes.
As I said earlier however, Argentina is not my country and it isn’t for me to be too critical.
67
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have an incredible fixation and obsession with Gorillas old man...
I know you like them... Now what really happened in the past stays in the past...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlsFGtdSPcI
It must have beeng very traumatizing but you must move on
68
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for that very interesting link. I loved the article “Don't Lie to Me Argentina.” Seeing how blatantly and shamelessly the CFK government simply lies about the true stats helps give me a better insight into why some of our Malvinista friends on here continue to use sock puppets to give the perception of increased support to their cause. Even though it is clear and plain for the rest of us that they are just making it all up. Like the author said, the emotion of shame seems not to feature in many Argentines' choice of mind sets.
Credibility check anyone?
Chuckle chuckle
67 think
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0i respect a good, formed, intelligent gorilla.
sadly, it is not the case of this cabecita.
it seems he confuses party politics with national interests, but without understanding what parties were involved in that particular issue.
guess he does not even know who was josé uriburu.
or worse, he must think that lisandro de la torre or mosconi were leftist or peronistas.
72
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are quite limited so you cuddle up with think when you have being proven a liar.
yes, he was a leftist throwback
Lisandro de la Torre is the one responsable for you lying and claiming that the British forced the conservative gov't in the 30s to prohibit argentine frigorificos....
He was a bitter looser of those days... That is not the problem, the problem is that still to this day people believe the likes of him and J.L. Torres. You see you dont think, you dont have independent criteria. You believe in dogmas and have mindset that is over nearly a century old.
Mosconi was a nationalist but at least he worked for a serious and relatively good gov't of what I still consider the gold old days. There was so much petrol at the time and so little consumption that nowbody cared in those days if energy was public or private.
He would have never understood the concept in those days that in the future they would be actual problems of getting the oil and gas out of the ground and it would be scarce like nowdays.
YB is laughing is ars* on the other thread at YPF. And rightly so, I will like to see Mosconi came back from the grave and solving Argentinas enrgy crisis. He couldent possibly do so.
“Mosconi was a nationalist but at least he worked for a serious and relatively good gov't of what I still consider the gold old days.”
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and what government was that, you genius?
go to wikipedia, your main source of information, and try to find out.
I never said that the UCR at the beginning that was bad...They were “radicals” at that time, but that was it... It wasnt populist, corrupt, outline statists and demagogue as the peronist gov'ts were. I said that Argentine decline commenced in 1946. Dont mix up apples and oranges
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hate to agree with him but CD has got this right.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Basically, unless they all change their attitude and denounce Peron, they are fucked forever.
It can be clearly seen that the economic , cultural and political decline of Argentina started during the 30s , basically after the Eucharistic Congress os year 1934. Since then onwards the power in Argentina was cornered by catholic nationalist governments .
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It was during this decadewhen emerged of Historical Revisionism movement led by two brothers, Rodolfo and Julio Irazusta, who from the Catholic nationalist vision sought to rewrite the history of the country. The book written by them, “Argentina and British imperialism ,” was transformed into the source of inspiration of anti - British , anti -liberal and anti- Masonic people.
The General Peron, himself, in an interview taped defined the history of Argentina (and Latin American one) as an struggle between “masonic revolutionary” and “catholic nationalist”. He mentioned directly “masonic vs. nationacionalism”. In this interview he included several contradictions, and inaccuracies. He Defined Rosas, Irigoyen and himself, as from the “national ” line. Peron ignored that Irigoyen was also a free-mason.
The decline of Argentina can be demonstrated by the fact that there were 16 constitutional presidents in Argentina that were free-masons, only two were from the decade of the thirties.
Peronism was the use of the Labor movement with giveaways to the poor to seize political control. This is the same strategy of the Democrat party in the USA today. Perhaps we await the same fate as Argentina. Granted the US has stronger institutions than Argentina that serve to inhibit the erosion of liberty but the similarities of the Progressives and the Peronists is frightening. Always on top there are connected cronies who loot the country while it sinks.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@77
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Personally I think that part of your problem is that you stayed out of the Second World War altogether, and in consequence remain saddled with the world's last remnant of 1930's political culture, outlook, and methods. Both Spain and Portugal suffered the same for a while, but at least had the carrot of EU membership to help them move out of it.
Argentina's failure is all down to corrupt, incompetent and economically suicidal politicians.
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Personally I think that part of your problem is that you stayed out of the Second World War altogether”
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0latin america was neutral during almost all the ww2.
it was basically a european conflict.
on the other hand, britain strongly depended on food shipments from argentina.
well, the only way those ships were not be attacked by the germans was to remain neutral.
read what your hero churchill thought about that matter.
@81
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And in consequence, you remain stuck in the 1930's some 80 years later. Thanks for confirming what I just said.
82
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0another debt britain has with argentina and counting
83
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yep, you're winners alright.
Chuckle chuckle
(83) paulcedron
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This Anglo turnip at (82) is funny......
First he invents a “Law” that makes you lose automatically any discussion about the British Empire if..... you mention the British Empire...
Then he coins a theory that the countries that were neutral during WWII “remained saddled with the world's last remnant of 1930's political culture, outlook, and methods.”
Well that surely explains the backwardness of Switzerland... and Sweden...
Monty Python brainwash anybody?
@85
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you can't already tell the difference between Switzerland, Sweden, and Argentina, now or in the 1930's, you're unfortunately well beyond my help.
The “law” isn't that lose automatically any discussion about the British Empire if you mention the British Empire, the law is that if you are discussing something else entirely, and the only argument you have got left is the iniquity of the British Empire, then you have lost.
It's bleeding obvious when you notice it.
85 Think
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Well that surely explains the backwardness of Switzerland... and Sweden...”
LOL!
Well that surely explains that there is no link between remaining neutral and success...
BTW How are all your sock puppets going? How many have you got on the go right now? So_far and Vestige? Are they yours? Who else?
Chuckle chuckle
Turnip at (86)
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 099% of the discussion you engage in here at MercoPress are directly related with the Malvinas/Falklands issue....
And the Malvinas/Falklands issue is an archaic remnant of the British Empire....
Ergo, It's bleeding obvious that your “law” has no application in your case...
Fail again Think, its your wrongheaded attitude that is a remnant of The British Empire, and that disappeared in the 1960s. We all moved on whilst you Turnips cling to the past. You are out of date, out of ideas, an acronism in a modern world. Your country is once again sliding remorselessly into an abyss of economic ruin rudderless and you cannot see it, we can!
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@88
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well first of all, it's not my “law”, that's an invention of your alleged sock-puppet A_Voice, for me it just started off as an observation.
But I can see the obvious difficulties such a “law” would pose for you, given your difficulties with more sophisticated concepts such as e.g the chronology of events.
Turnip at (90)
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ergo, It's bleeding obvious that your “observation” has no application in your case...
@91
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not at all. My observation remains that Malvinistas such as yourself typically fall back onto the iniquities of the British Empire when losing an argument on any other topic. And that is no surprise because so many of your arguments are either contradictory or contrafactual, that frequently it's all you've got. You are no different in this respect, except that you have further fallbacks into generic anglophobia and indeed gringophobia when even the good old Empire fails you. But i can understand how you'd be pissed when somebody calls into question your comfort blanket.
So...., we're back to base one..:
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Turnip at (92) invented an “Observation” that makes one lose automatically any discussion about the British Empire if..... one mention the British Empire...
@93
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wrong again. The observation is that if your only remaining argument, on any other topic, is to invoke the historical iniquities of the British Empire (real or alleged), then you have lost.
If you're still having dificulties, check out some posts by Tobias, or paul cedron, or Marcos, or Jose Malvinero, or indeed your own good self, and you'll pick it up pretty quickly.
I'll repeat again for Turnip at (93)
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 099% of the discussions he engages in here at MercoPress are directly related with the Malvinas/Falklands issue....
And, as the Malvinas/Falklands issue is an archaic remnant of the British Empire....
It's bleeding obvious that his “observation” has no application in his case...
@95
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'll do the courtesy to other readers of not repeating yet a fourth time what I've already explained to you at three times.
But just for the record, the crimes of the British Empire, whether real or alleged, do not mean that Argentina's claim to the Falkland Islands is well-founded.
They tried violence, now they are trying a blockade. What they are scared of is a court case, because they will lose, and they will lose because they have no case that can win in court, and, the Falkland Islands have a solid statement of self determination, the referendum. So, they can only hurl preposterous assertions about a long gone Empire. Turnips….
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its no use explaining to them Hans, but thanks for explaining to us.
@97
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But in a way you have to sympathise. If your case hinges on an inheritance that was never left to you, an expulsion that never happened, a legal principle that is neither legal nor a principle, and the demand that the UK respect a UN resolution which Argentina has violated, but the UK hasn't, you're bound to have a tough time coming up with arguments in support.
81 paulcedron
Mar 02nd, 2014 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Latin America was neutral during almost all the ww2.”
Well that’s true up to a point.
Brazil did however declared war on both Nazi Germany and fascist Italy on 22 August 1942 and sent thousands of troops to fight in Europe, mostly in the Italian campaign.
I really have no idea what participation in ww2 may or may not have had upon the subsequent history of Argentina. It is however a matter of historic record that Peron was an open admirer of Mussolini. He spent time in Italy in 1939 and had met the man personally. His economic policies and political philosophy clearly owe a debt to the Italian corporatism and fascism of the 1920’s and 30’s. Both combine a fierce nationalism with socialism and state control and direction of industry.
Be that as it may, Argentina, as I have said before, is not my Country, so it not really polite of me to be too overly critical.
However, with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to see why some Argentines do not regard this particular period of their recent history as one of an unmitigated and roaring success.
Dear HansNiedsund, as regards your comments 79
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0I believe that the process was more complex than just a neutral attitude towards the WWII.
Basically, some events happened in Europe during the decade of the 30s. The Spanish Civil war seemed to be the “first movement” of the clash between the liberals and the catholic nacionalists.
The “Congreso Eucaristico” held during year 1934 was not randomly organized in Argentina. Since this event changed the politics a lot in Argentina. Do not forget that Catholicism was, and still is, quite strong in Argentina..
Being neutral during WWI was the logical consequence of the political inclinations of people that were ruling the country at that time. I believe that the incredible stupid attitude of J D Peron aftern WWII was more damaging that the neutrality. He fiercely denied the chances of taking part of the most important trade agreements after the war.
In addtion, the long and prosperous partnership between Argentina and the UK ended leaving Argentina alone without a new important strategic partner. We are still looking for a new one...China?...Europe?..Brasil?....who knows.
Anyway, it is quite evident that the influence of the Peronism war terrible in the fate of Argentina. Peronism is the political cancer of Argentina since, as any cancer, comes from your own cells.
@Hans
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0“If your case hinges on an inheritance that was never left to you, an expulsion that never happened, a legal principle that is neither legal nor a principle, and the demand that the UK respect a UN resolution which Argentina has violated, but the UK hasn't, you're bound to have a tough time coming up with arguments in support.”
A great summation.
captain
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0“We all moved on whilst you Turnips cling to the past. You are out of date...”
are you sure you moved on?
with 14 colonies in the 21st century?
with 13 million people living under the poverty threshold?
i recognize we are in deep shit, but it is a lot worse to be a disaster and still think you are the powerful, rich britain of 150 years ago.
guess the independence of scotland (oil included) will help you to realize your current situation.
rupertbrookes0
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 01:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0It could be that reform comes eventually from Peronism itself... Out of a need, rather than ideological or traditional rhetorical reasons. Peronism is not a ideological identity anymore, its more like a political culture and a bridge to power. If you have to be sombody in politics you have to be a peronist. You climb up more easily this way.
Perhaps... But who has to change the country has a inmense chalenge of changing the mentality of the people.
As you see most of them still have their minds back in the 1920s & 1930s...
@102
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Out of the 14 colonies, how many wish to be in a different status?
President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner announced a Malvinas Museum is expected to be ready for its inauguration in June 2014 in the ex ESMA Navy Mechanics' School building.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 01:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ain't that just great - a Malvinas Museum in ESMA, sometimes referred to as the “Auschwitz of Argentina” - she really has style.
“Last week, Roger Cohen of The New York Times puts the blame for the debacle squarely on Peronism. That is a bit too simple. Peronism certainly has much to answer for but, like Hipólito Yrigoyen’s Radicalism, the populist movement that had dominated the country before Juan Domingo Perón and Evita arrived on the scene, it was a symptom of something far deeper, a widespread sense of entitlement that easily morphed into collective self-pity.”
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 04:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0“In a way, Argentina pioneered what are currently called “identity politics” in which grievance-mongers do their best to persuade others to give in to their demands for “justice”. This may work for ethnic, religious or sexual minorities in guilt-ridden rich countries, and even for majorities such as women. In Argentina’s case, it has only made its inhabitants feel misunderstood. To their increasingly resentful chagrin, nobody beyond its borders appreciates that it really is a victim country whose complaints ought to be taken seriously.”
In addition to moaning that fate has been most unkind to them, Argentine politicians and the people who are regarded as intellectuals would dearly like to astound the world by coming up with a startlingly new socioeconomic formula that would quickly enable them to leap to the front of the international stage. Like their German contemporaries, a century ago many influential Argentines already felt their country should go its own way rather than follow the path that had been opened by Great Britain, the United States and France. In Germany’s case, the Sonderweg led to two catastrophic world wars; in Argentina’s, a local version of the same desire lured it straight into a swamp from which it would be unable to extricate itself.
http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/153407/a-worldclass-failure
“Argentina is a unique case of a country that has completed the transition to underdevelopment,” said Javier Corrales, a political scientist at Amherst College.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 08:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yet they think they should be allowed to run the world!
Paul, Scotland does not want independence, only a minority. We don't see ourselves as a powerful country, but more as a kind generous country. As for poverty, its all in a definition. Our definition would include ALL Argentinean. Those families still have a proper roof over their heads, not tin. Cars, RGs, mobiles etc. Our country is a magnet in Europe because there is work and prosperity. You don't know or understand Britain and that is part of your problem
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentinians should seek independence from argentina itselft starting with their president.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0#102 Any of these small islands and territories can leave any time they want. And then there is the British Commonwealth with 53 states, some of whom were never British colonies, what does that say. People like us, they respect our values and culture. As for the Scots the ones that want to leave are struggling for support.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Our 'poverty,' would be your middle class! Have you ever been to Britain, have you ever been to the Falklands? I have been to your country many times and seen with my own eyes what Mr Cohen is describing. I have also been to several other countries in SA and yours stands out as an abject failure with a sense of hopelessness. Get yourself educated Turnip.
That opening ceremony with “militant Ks” and communists was pretty embarrassing.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Do Rgs not realize how ridiculous they look?
Do you ever see things like that in civilized countries?
It looked like something you saw in the 1930 Fascist countries.
Really funny, Roger Cohen a British journalist linked with the MI6 and Mosad that had been a fervent lobbyist of the invasion of Iraq based on WoMD. What of course was a complete lie...
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now plotting against Argentina...
I hope Argentina take the same path of Russia when concerning about British or American Spies...
Just a thought...
@112
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And who indeed would be surprised to find Argentina taking the same path as Russia?
112. Dany are you glad you put all your $ in pesos last year?
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bahahaha
Fail.
The definition of poverty in the UK - Families with an annual income of less than $15,000.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The definition of poverty in Argentina - Families with an annual income less than $3,500.
Surprisingly the number of people living in poverty in the UK is higher than in Argentina. Of course Argentina could wipe out poverty immediately if it wished. All it would have to do is change the definition to families with an annual income of less than $5. Get to it INDEC.
112) Next is Sacha Baron Cohen with “Borat: Cultural Learnings of Argentina for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Britanistan”
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ah Yankee! You don't get it do you - they are unreconstructed fascists stuck firmly in the 1930s, especially Think!
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0WHY SHOULD WE CRY FOR CRETINS?.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's well known that low density journalism isn't an argentine invention, in fact, it can be found in any newspaper of the world, actualy what really annoys me, are the lies, and the too partial lectures that this kind of jornalism often makes in relation to arg., which are also celebrated by many of the sepoys that we have here.
It's absolutly false is to say that in that 100 years ago, argentina was richer than swedeen, france etc etc, while it is true that it was the 7th economy of the world, it's also true that most that opulence was enjoined by the richest sectors of the society, but most people lived in very bad conditions. Beside, the parasitary burguesy, didn't use the opulence of those years, in order to industrialize the nation. The firts president of XX century who took some measures on behalf of workers, was hipólito irigoyen (1916-1922, and 1928-1930), who was extremely hated by the richests sectors. Since 1880, untill 1946, arg. was just an agrarian english colony, where the empire handled most our economy, perhaps, this is the reason why cohen and some others usually praise the country of those years.
The true problem of the country isn't neather peronism, nor any other politic party, the main obstacle of the nation, is the parasitary burguesy that we have always had, who's behaviour has always been to explote the statal advantages, without making enough inverstments, and provoking huge economic runs in order to make fell different governments. In fact, since 2007, we had 7 economic runs, however, if they couldn't brake c. f. k's government down, as they with alfonsin in 1989, or in 2001, is because c. f. k's government isn't a weak government like those. Anyway i don't omit that the ineptitude, and the lack of bravery of some of our ex leaders was partialy the cause of our defeats, but economic power, has always been the main obstacle.
Yes this is the problem we have.... And he is a teacher and he even is crying for a raise in public salary, while he votes and supports the same the gov't that generates the conditions for hyperinflation and teaches the lies and rubbish people are brained washed with !!! FFS!!!! The waste of air of a man complains about the fact that Argentina was the 7th largest economy , today Argentina is sinking behind Colombia and Chile has overcome Argentina in size if we consider the parallel dollar...
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 02:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://es.mercopress.com/2014/03/01/colombia-y-chile-con-economias-mas-fuertes-que-argentina-por-distorsiones-cambiarias
These throughbacks like axel will never understand that its more important that everybody has a job before inequalty and that in order for wealth to distribute itself it must be created and allowed to be so
Another hit in the nail's head...
http://es.mercopress.com/2014/03/01/colombia-y-chile-con-economias-mas-fuertes-que-argentina-por-distorsiones-cambiarias
Axel, would you like us to recolonise you? Many of our other colonies - USA, Canada, Australia etc have done rather well. The overiding characteristic is that they all started with mainly people from England! Does this give you a clue to where things may have started to go wrong? Argentina has ten times the natural resources of little Britain and 2/3 of our population, but you still can't seem to succeed? Is it perhaps that you aren't concentrating on the things that really matter. Is it that you suffer from corrupt leaders and institutions? Is it that peoples attitudes are self centred and dishonest? And, how do the mythical Malvinas figure in all this?
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps Auntie Think can enlighten us Anglo Turnips?
Axel doesn't think inflations matters because everyone gets raises that are above inflation.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Except this year
and from here on out
He so stupid he thinks more worthless pesos are a good thing.
120
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The problem is that he is a teacher and he preaches mentality, attitudes and ideas that are a century old and burden Argentina into perpetuity
People like him are a cancer to the system, he should be sacked and cleaned from public teaching
The country of English is so uninteresting that no one speaks of them.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And the newspaper is located in a English colony.
hahaha
123
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0brasilero
You could at least be useful and find out the name of the Brazilian girl of the Nadal match and post it.... That would be far more interesting than what you say
Woman is no concern. We've all!
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0See this video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm55lU9knw
hahaha
Haha number 123. We notice you spend lots of time here, so why is that? No one talks of the English? Is it like “no British Companies are involved in the Brazil Olympics” - which is just another of your fanciful myths. In England Brazil is hardly mentioned - only when we tut tut at your favelas and watch your occasional riots, or make more tut tuts as you continue to destroy the Amazon rainforest. You are in the Portugueseosphere, not in the Anglosphere, that is why we are never mentioned. We are just a quiet peaceful home loving and generous country that understand its role in the world. Just like the Falkland Islands where Joe Bloggs is more concerned about his garden project than the rantings of various corrupt dictators.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 126
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I liked your statement. Yes! I spend a lot of time here. I know the English who write here.
They're shit! If we use the math ... Poor England!
No seriously that girl just standing there in the Rafa match is just beyond perfection.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brasil open in Sauípe Resort? Ping-pong?
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 129 Brasileiro
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hola, “babaca”!
@ 130 Gordão
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Olá Gordo.
CABEZA DURA2.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's understandable that somebody who has such a reactionary view like you, thinks that equality isn't so important. You should take into account that the most important for any country isn't it's gdp, or it's quotation before dollar, what is really important for any country, is the life standard of it's citizens, that's why let me remind you that colombia and chile don't have in absolut a better life standard than us, otherwise, explain me why do many colombians and chileans inmigrate to arg., in order to study at our public universities?. I feel really proud that those people, and many other from different countries come to arg. to study. Beside, in terms of incomes both countries are much more unequal than arg., anyway i understand that for you it's something irrelevant, that's why we won't never agree on this issue. Maybe both don't have our inflationary problems, but even without that obstacle, they don't have a better life standard than us in most aspects.
Respecting the claim of payrases for etachers, i can only tell you that it will be solved, as it has always happened every year.
In my particular case, in just a few opportunities i was affected by inflation, i mean exactly when the government increased the amount of tickets for public transportation, but in relation to food, i have never been so affected, because i have always bought the products that were included in the different prices agreements, which had freezed prices.
NOLOLLY: Don't worry, we don't need your ex empire to colonise us, in order to solve our problems, beside, your u. k. has already stolen so much from our country. The true reason of our defeats are explained in my comment 118, so, we don't need you. Anyway, it's understandable that people who have such a mediocre and ignorant thought like you about our country, continues to make the same kind of misserabe and ignorant lectures that you made in your comment 120.
My wife is “sansey” ..... granddaughter of Japanese from Brazil.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She asked to send this video to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGtKxbu7vLI
To axel arg
The decline of Argentina these past 60+ years is not just due to Peron's economic policies or the IMF or what not, but more importantly in my opinion, it's because Great Britain did not succeed in taking over Buenos Aires and so on after 1806-07. If the British had succeeded in that regard, they would have brought over stronger civil and legal institutions that would have ensured better long-term economic development. Argentina would have ended up like a Southern Hemisphere Canada (with English and Spanish spheres the way that Canada has English and French), or like a South American version of Australia. (The fact that Argentina, in the early 20th century, was essentially a British economic colony, bolsters this argument.)
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not saying, of course, that the presence of the Spanish legacy and the absence of the British legacy in real-life Argentina is everything - the causes of the decline are far more complex than just that. But the fact that Argentina has been a temperate-zone land with a relative absence of a peasantry (like the US, Canada, Australia, the modern-day UK, etc. and unlike most of the rest of Latin America) and yet had a typically Latin American history of a powerful landed elite combined with a powerful armed forces and a relatively weak civil society (and thus no real industrialization, not even under Peron) really didn't do Argentina much good, especially from Peron onwards. So, a British Argentina keeps the good Canada- or Australia-like traits without having the Latin American traits that real-life Argentina had - go figure! I think, seriously, that a British Argentina is a retroactive solution to Argentina's mysterious-seeming economic decline. Not to mention that many scholars and others who attempt to analyze Argentina's decline overlook the fact that it was undergoing ruinous civil wars before that country stabilized itself starting in the 1860s, leading to Argentina's era of being a First World country up until Peron.
Axel, I am not lecturing you. I am trying to understand your predicament by asking questions? And, if you can point out what the British have stolen I am sure our government will be delighted to give it back? The British do not believe in theft. Or, are we talking about something that happened long in the past - perhaps when Argentina was supporting Hitler and the Nazj plan to dominate Europe. You can't blame us for fighting fascism and shunning those who support it, surely? What you said so far doesnt explain why Argentina is crying?
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Keep doing the good work, Axel. I'll always be by your side. To live or die!
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 04:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Long Live Argentina!
#134 A British lead rescue plan for Argentina, now there's a good idea! Unfortunately its the Budget soon and I think its too late to get it into our financial plan. But, I'll send an urgent email to William Hague… you never know?
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0axel
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You see what you actually want is that the rich were provided that the poor were poor were poorer... This is a discussion that has already being overcome in Europe and America in the 1980s and understood by its political class... But you still believe in ideas that are old fashion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
In Chile there is geniun jobs, ElaineB said that in Chile its hard for employeers to keep their workers, because as there is so many they leave with no anticipated notice to a better paid one.
You see that is a interesting thing about capitalism were not only the employeer gets a lot of people from to choose from like always happens... But also the employee gets a high degree of competitiveness for offeres of jobs. So salaries of the private sector have to compete to attrack workers.
I dont care how richer people may be from myself if I can provide for me and my family and aspire to a better future by saving money.
What is the use for a poor man in Argentina that society is more equal than in Chile but he has to work very hard and inflation doesn't allow him to save money and the gov't eliminates all posible ways of doing so ??
There is not that many chileans and colombians studyng here... There is 9000 chileans but 8000 argentines studying likeways in Chile or something like that... If anything Argentina is becoming cheap for Chileans and Colombians
And why would anybody from the succesful country want to hear old out of date and ideas of the 1930s that have already failed from a waste of air like you??
Our foreign exchange reserves are at the disposal of Argentina!
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0380 Billions USD
Our government in contact with the Argentine government is taking care of it.
@134
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It was not the British who ended the early civil wars of Argentina. It was Argentines who set up the solutions and THEN foreign investment followed.
And no, having been a full British colony would not be a solution because then there would be no Argentina as known today. Even if it was economically better off (quite a dubious statement considering how India, South Africa, Jamaica, Kenya, and all the other ex-British colonies look today, I guess the British system is not as miraculous as it seems nor that different from Spain's), then it would be a country devoid of any culture as it is known today.
Toby...culture....do you mean the Tango? I think we would have kept that. I suggest you look closely at the current differences between Spain and Britain. We never had so many Manuels!
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJWh9wcz4Qs
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let us fight against the tyranny!
@ 138 CD
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You should have a look at the link I posted @38 - it nail some of what you are saying...
“El chileno cambió y se puso más capitalista, no se qué pasó. Antes hablaban con la voz finita y me decían ”vos sos de Buenos Aires, que cachilupi“ ahora están agrandados y me dicen: ”vos sos de Buenos Aires, que barata esa hueáaaaaa“”
...
What further exacerbates your point on the number of compatriots studying in each country is that the Chileans in Argentina are poor and getting free education, the Argies studying here have to pay - not an equitable situation.
...
@axel
If you are typical of teachers over there, it is no wonder that Argentina continues to fall in the PISA assessment.
@140
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I acknowledge that it was not the British who ended the early Argentine civil wars. Nonetheless, with the British around, there wouldn't have been nearly as many civil wars, if any.
As to the likes of India, Jamaica, Kenya, etc., these countries are tropical and not suitable to European-style agriculture, and the British did not have much luck in colonizing the land. By contrast, the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand (and arguably parts of South Africa) are all, as I mentioned before, temperate-zone lands where European crops are much more successful. And like the latter countries and unlike the former countries, Argentina was quite empty and quite open to European settlement.
For more information, see http://explorersfoundation.org/archive/anglosphere_primer.pdf.
@144
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There will never be satisfied racist.
The universe is colder than hot.
You're dumber than smart.
IDIOT!”!
@138 I met many Colombians claiming to be studying in Buenos Aires when I lived there. To be honest they did not seem to do any studying. Just saying'.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@139 Brasiliero
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If that is true (and not a fantasy of your little troll brain) then Brazil had better kiss goodbye to all that US$380 billion, because Argentina will steal it all and in return give you Argentine bonds that aren't worth the paper they're written on.
Of course, if Brazil is actually that stupid, given Argentina's track record, then they deserve everything they get.
We will work harder.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0his is the time to prove our commitment.
South America PASSION!!
143
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's quite embarrassing what the argentine comedian says that there is record number of Argentine whores in Chile... Argentine women in Latam and Miami are going to become the equivalent to the Russian women in Europe. Yet more consequences of the “Won decade”.
Axel is a teacher and there are many like him too. And the worst part is that they actually think that their version of history is the one that has being trampled on. They actually think they belong to the “intellectual class”.... Its interesting to see them react to the opinions of foreigners who look at argentine history from afar and can clearly detect the decline from peronism onwards
@ 149 CD
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is interesting that you pick up on that point. I made mention of it to Toby and others in denial back in 2012. The trafficking of girls is a cruel barometer of a countries failure and should set alarm bells ringing.
For large numbers of girls to fall in to the hands of the mafias there needs to be at least poverty, police corruption and an unfavourable wealth gap with the destination country/region.
The GDP per head in the region of Antofagasta in 2013 was $37,000 (similar to the UK). In the pubs and clubs there, the girls that are black are Colombian, the girls that are blond are Argentinian - and they are everywhere.
The fact that so many girls are kidnapped and trafficked should be a national scandal.
White is rich.....
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Black is poor....
Antofagasta is Chile?
NO!!
150
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ignore Brasileiro....
Hmmm last year Lanata made a program of a trafficking web that started in the north of Argentina, they ended up in brothels in BsAs and in Santa Cruz and then there was down south a link to Chile in Punta Arena by land, once they cross the border very few are rescued.... But thats very far south from Antofagasta. But those nothern girls are indian looking. Maybe there is another network that starts from Mendoza or elsewhere??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdWNHuWAoJ4
Rudy Ulloa is suspected of narco trafficking in Chile. I say this because the drug selling points are always near the brothels or in the brothels themselves dope is sold
Axel, I am still waiting for an explanation.. Where they wiped out those capitalists the countrys failed - Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Russia. You blame those people. In western economies we control them and they make our economies rich. You are on the wrong track. With the crooks you have at the helm Arg is doomed.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@145
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I was racist at all, I *really* didn't mean it, at all! I was just saying the utter truth about Argentina, something which may be hard for some people on this forum to swallow. If it was British investment that played a large role in making Argentina the First World country it was in the early 20th century, imagine how much more of a First World country it would be as a British dominion and subsequently as an independent country, down to this day!
Axel, Think, Marcos, Dany, Toby etc are the reason Argentina is a failed state. they believe and repeat the ridiculous propaganda, blame “the others” for their misery and are content in their deluded world view and self righteousness.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The country will only get poorer and dumber until the cycle is broken and the Peronism disease is eradicated.
Does any of you remember when I suggested DannyBerger that he should buy my canadian dollars? Does any of you remember he told me I was trying to cheat him?
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Danny..my Canadian dollars are still on sale...just that they are a little bit more expensive now...but don't worry they will be even more expensive later...
146 ElaineB
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Watch out Elaine!! The Trolls are circling.
That must mean that there is a lost cause somewhere in this thread.......
I can only wonder what it is.... Could it be the “argentina is great” line? or the “KFC can do no wrong” Line....or, or what about the old fall back position “The Falklands are really ours”
@ 155
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Reminds me of the Arab countries - that they blame others, such as Israel, the Jews, or the United States, for their failings. Once the Arab countries themselves accept responsibility for their intractable lack of democratic governance, corruption, low per-capita economic (except the Gulf states) and intellectual output, etc., only then will they be able to break out of their misery. A sad fact is that the number of books translated into Arabic is less than translated in relatively less-developed European countries such as Greece or Spain.
@157 Yes, I have read the thread. Whilst the original article may be couched in harsh words it is essentially correct. I love that Aníbal Fernández chose to respond on Twitter, defending Peronism as something no one but an Argentine can understand. “You don´t understand us and never will, we are too much for you.” LOL! Rather like when particularly stupid men claim women can never understand the offside rule in football. Yeah, we understand it perfectly.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0159. That's right up there with the BCRA head saying the Argentinian economy doesn't play by the same rules and everyone else.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0snicker snicker
or
Inflating the money supply doesn't cause inflation
or
or
or
Dumb as a box of rocks
#138 In Chile there is a labour shortage and as a consequence many other South Americans are drawn there to work. But, no real signs of widespread poverty like in Arg. Some years ago the immigrant wine workforce was exploited in Chile but I believe that has now passed.
Mar 03rd, 2014 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The trolls seem to have melted away defeated. They don't seem keen to discuss this subject?
it is so funny to read the comments and the articles of people who have never in their puta life been here, opining and trying to “dar cátedra” about...our own country.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0the only ones who know the current situation of argentina is the people who live here.
now, the imbecile readers of this 4th class newspaper cannot differentiate between a propaganda a favor or a propaganda en contra.
they are exactly the same as the ultra k but seen from the other extreme
so these imbeciles blindly trust in this cohen guy and the campora kids blindly trust in pagina 12.
they all have the same capacity of analysis, that is zero (0).
but the funniest thing are the other imbeciles who think that the poverty in the uk is not the same poverty of the rest of the world.
guess they have never left the islets in their life.
@162 You do realise you just called yourself an imbecile?
Mar 04th, 2014 - 12:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0162 paulcedron
Mar 04th, 2014 - 02:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0It isn’t necessary to actually live in a place (such as Argentina) in order to know something about it. For example, I’ve never lived at the South Pole, but I know its bloody cold.
Equally I’ve never visited Argentina (yet) but I have learnt something of it. I’ve done this by reading quality journals, by internet research, by reading scholarly histories and other books, by spending a quite considerable time talking with my Argentinian friends etc. I make no claim to be an expert however, but I’m not ignorant either.
There is an on-going debate in the UK regarding “poverty” The current official definition is those whose incomes fall below 60% of median income for their group (2 children families for example).
There are many problems with this definition. One being it doesn’t take into account assets. Many “poor” people actually own their own home, also cars and expensive TV’s etc.
I myself have fall into this category in the past yet lived in a comfortable flat and took 2 foreign holidays a year.
When a country is as rich as the UK, and “poor” people can afford to drive their families to the airport in their own cars for a 2 week holiday in Spain; what does that say about poverty?
I saw a film on TV not long ago, about the work of priests in the Villa miseries slums of Buenos Aires. It was really shocking. That’s real poverty. There is nothing, nothing, like that level of poverty in the UK. Not even close. For someone in the UK that’s real poverty, something from the third world.
I can say for certain that poverty in the UK is not like elsewhere in the world. Certainly not like Buenos Aires. There hasn’t been poverty like that in the UK for over a hundred years or more
“Severe poverty affects 1.6m UK children, charity claims
Mar 04th, 2014 - 03:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Save the Children fears number of children living without the basics will rise as result of government policy”
“The Greater Manchester Poverty Commission states that 600,000 people are in “extreme poverty” in the Greater Manchester region.”
surely all these poor british families, drive maseratis and spend their vacations playing polo in sotogrande.
that is the british definition for poverty.
In this forum we have the highest density of experts on places they never been to in the world.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 04:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Also of hypocrites, because then they tell me that I cannot comment on their countries because I have never been there, but then they say one must not live in Argentina to comment about it.
LOL, that is European logic for you!
166 A_neuTroll_Observer
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0“In this forum we have the highest density of experts on places they never been to in the world.”
Oh Tobi, you are an expert. You are the most qualified Troll on this forum. You are an expert in not being an expert.
If there is anyone on here, more qualified in nothing, it's you.
You have known so much, about so little, for so long you know all there is to know.....about nothing at all.
The trolls have hated this discussion and tried desperately to deflect it onto British poverty which we all know is a bit of a sham. Think disappeared quite early on… says it all. We are crying for you Argentina as you slide on into the mire. Meanwhile Joe Bloggs is planning a new flower bed!
Mar 04th, 2014 - 09:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0168 Captain Silver
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0That's not as funny as it sounds. I just finished raking all of the top soil level with the top of the retaining wall and now Mrs Bloggs thinks a flower bed along the wall would look nicer than lawn. I haven't got time for that; she still wants me to finish all the new fences before winter. There aren't enough hours in the day and I lost most of last weekend to a nasty cold that kept me indoors.
You're right though. The Trolls really hated Cohen's article and how dare Mercopress use the photo they used. News about the Argentine economy is only supposed to be released by the CFK government and through INDEC. The Ks went to a lot of trouble to replace them economists with loyalists so the least the world can do is sit up and listen to them.
167 Too Old
Go easy on Tobes. One thing he does know is that the Falklands belongs to us and he believes we should be left alone. I don't like his hatred of anyone of European origins but I'm pretty sure it means he also hates himself. Remember he's just a kid.
I have travelled in Gambia, South Africa and India. “Poverty” in the UK cannot even start to compare with these countries.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0We took pens and notebooks to Gambia and handed them in to a school about 200 miles inland from the coast. The kids were taught in an unlit shed and had one meal a day. The headmaster reacted as if we had just given him the Crown jewels.
I was totally embarrassed and wished I had stuffed our suitcases with more items for them. Their water was drawn from a well and I did not ask about sanitation.
Just outside Capetown, I took a wrong turning and ended up in a township.
Rows of houses packed together made of corrugated iron and cardboard again with standpipes for water.
In St.Lucia, there were groups of orphaned kids living in the open at the back of a restaurant, grubbing about for left overs which had been binned.
In India, we saw families living by the roadside in makeshift polythene tents.
Their sole possessions seemed to be what they were wearing and some cooking pots.
So, poverty in the UK would be a life of luxury to these people.
I have no idea what poverty in Argentina is like, BUT from pictures I have seen, there is nothing as bad in the UK as makeshift slums on the periphery of B.A.
@yd1982
Mar 04th, 2014 - 11:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Man... Following your logic I guess that the British forgot to invest in Great Britain because looks like a 3er world country.
And after the lost of the AAAA uff!!!! More misery all over...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikgkYGDXnc4
Children that their parents cannot afford to provide food to them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikgkYGDXnc4
Oh dear, we are back to the poverty debate where certain posters still cannot understand that it is relative, though we must have explained it endlessly.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It would be more useful to measure poverty in terms of what we NEED which is finite and easy to define, rather than what we WANT which is infinite and insatiable. I believe it was an Argentine economist that suggested that method. Anyone here know?
Many people here have travelled extensively and understand the true meaning of abject poverty. I always research a new destination and take a second case full of hard to find items to gift.
I remember in Cuba it was women's underwear, children's clothing and school equipment most in demand. A new pair of shoes was the equivalent of a month's salary. I was very impressed with the way they shared everything in a fair manner.
Joe, you must get a lot of driftwood on the Islands. On my recent visit to Chile we visited a Magellan Penguin colony. The punters were fenced in from the little blighters by driftwood fences which were spectacular, and free, just the thing for you poverty stricken Islanders that Desperate Dany, Paul the Plonker etc are always banging on about lol! A nice show of heather on the top of that wall might survive better than flowers. After all you have plenty of peat. Good luck with it.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0171)
Mar 04th, 2014 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have the impression they are trying hard to keep the image of a rich and providing country in the rest of the world and in 3rd world countries, when a lot of aid and assistance is needed in their own borders. Thing is.... Are there votes and support bought by the politicians?? BIG DIFFERENCE with poverty in Argentina.
Peronism fabricates poverty in order to mantain its power bbase
CD2 We spend more on overseas aid as a % than any other developed country, the British public are very generous too. Recently there have been calls to cut back on overseas aid as we are going through a lot of budget cuts at the moment. http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/mar/20/uk-aid-spend-important-works All in the trolls favourite newspaper! Remember we have a free press its not muzzled like Argentinas.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0175
Mar 04th, 2014 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know...
It's cheaper to aid in the developing world as to aid and help the needs of people in the UK because they are in pounds.
Aiding bigger economies like Brazil and India is insane, the same countries that are competing and have being taking your jobs is stupid and beyond understanding.
IMO post imperial Britain hasn't yet understand nor recognized its role in the world.
It is worth factoring in the return on 'aid'. There is always a quid pro quo.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is true that Cuba, Venezuela and Argentina need the 'poor' voting base to retain power. They offer a little more but never create an environment where people can get themselves out of poverty.
CD2 I went to India for the first time in November. The Taj hotels we stayed in were as luxurious as Central London ones but the poverty we saw in old Delhi was appalling. We like to think that its those sorts of people that we are helping with Aid. We are a very rich country, we don't see India and Brazil just as competitors. Everyone on earth whatever their nationality should have a piece of the pie , and, we always respond to friendly countries in need.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0177
Mar 04th, 2014 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There isnt such thing as a “return on aid”. It doesnt exist.
You cannot buy the acceptance and favour of the people in the third world by aiding them, plus at the same time having a disastrous foreign policy in the last 10 years and literally being seing in the worlds eyes as America's little lapdog. Nowbody respects nor likes that.. And you got absolutely nothing in return for it exept bags of corpes, terrorist attacks, debt, and aid for protection to Pakistan and countries as such. France got it right because at least it has a independent agenda in foreign policy and an agenda of its own and a natural area of influence in North Africa. They have the Americans backing them out after they walk in, they dont follow the americans...UK doesnt.
This is what you fail to understand. You dont need to be aiding and helping out others, thats why they became independent for, to be responsible of their own selves in the first place. You no longer have a “role” in the world as such
CD2 We saw ourselves as Bush's lapdog too. Thats why 2 million of us marched in Central London to oppose Blair who is now reviled in Britain. I think you fail to understand us. That march was the biggest in Britain ever. We aren't helping poorer countries for reward, we are helping them develop, and, helping them when there is a natural disaster. Didn't you notice that it was the British parliament that recently rejected intervening in Syria BEFORE the Americans, thus stopping the Americans wading in with all guns blazing like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan? We are mostly all appalled by what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, and, it will never happen again. Blair has been disowned and we will continue to help people to help themselves because thats what we do. The French do it too v Medicen sans frontiers…
Mar 04th, 2014 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0180
Mar 04th, 2014 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes but France has citizens, investments and interests in these regions. The fascinating thing about the UK is that it is a very relevant actor in world affairs, it is one of the biggest spenders on defence and has bigger projection than Russia or China but yet profundly unsecure with itself. Its nothing more than an extention of American influence and policy. This is the dilemma with Britain. And in this context within Europe (that has failed as a union block) you are seing Scandinavia forge a military alliance with the Baltic States out of fear of Russian expansion, the Germans will have to build up on their own forces too, Poland, Hungary and the Czech Repubic are making up their own alliance and France plays out in North Africa its own interests.
Folowing their masters in Washington, Britain aids Pakistan simply out of the fear islamabad sells or hands over nuclear material to the terrorists. Pakistan is bound to take over Afghanistan and share the pie with China... And US and UK have being adding them for a decade and fighting them at the same time inderectly. Its fascinating really.. I cant figure out more or less the US, France, China, Russia but the UK is beyond understanding exept that they are chronical loosers.
Aid doesnt solve the real problems by their root, it bearly mitigates them for some time. Only economic growth and trade and successful and competent government can solve them. Its just throwing money away.
@CD
Mar 04th, 2014 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“There isnt such thing as a “return on aid”. It doesnt exist.”
There is a return. The cost effectiveness is probably the debatable point.
@ CaptainSilver
Like CD I see things more cynically. There are infrastructure projects here in my region that are partially paid for by the EU. If I were an EU tax payer that would annoy me given that the infrastructure in much of Chile is better than in much of Europe and the government has funds to buy, for example, plenty of military hardware and a new air force base in Antarctica.
I don't disagree with our military spending per say, I am just using it as an example to demonstrate the point that the EU should be more careful about what aid it gives.
You say “We aren't helping poorer countries for reward”. I think that is totally incorrect and wishful. There may be legions of do-gooders in the aid organizations, but government directed aid programmes exits to obtain reward. As Elaine puts it, there is a “quid pro quo” which has as much to do with being able to with hold aid as it does with giving it.
Have you ever noticed that when a country steps out of line, the first warning is always that aid will be with held from the naughty government. In other words it puts a wedge between the people and the regime.
PS which penguin colony did you visit?
“There is a return. The cost effectiveness is probably the debatable point”
Mar 04th, 2014 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are more or less saying the same thing. But what you must consider is the political implications are empty from the beginning. No dictator or rogue state would accept aid if it would have that control power of it. Its really trade and economical activity that holds power in foreign relations not aid.
The aid to Pakistan should have being cut as soon as Bin Laden was killed a couple of blocks away from the Pakistani army base in 2011, it shouldent be the case from the beginning but the political moment of doing so was then. When you are actually paying for is security or we will give in nuclear materials to the criminal you are actually being held hostage- So yeah “quid pro quo”....Can be said so....but
I must admit that I don't understand our governments 'defence' policies. I cannot understand why we need offensive weapons like Aircraft Carriers. We do have a massive arms industry which exports masses of stuff and that provides many jobs, I suppose that's it. Our military is quite small but has potent weapons. Like many retired Britons I have been lucky enough to travel all over the world to see other countries. I think that as long as aid goes to help people help themselves and make a better life, or, to mitigate the effects of disasters like Syria or the Philippines I am happy.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I did enjoy my visit to Chile for the first time and I visited a Penguin colony just a short ride from Punta Arenas airport. Valparaiso we loved and the Atacama
CABEZA DURA2.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I want to tell you that i have nothing against people who don't like peronism, in fact, in my comment 118, i just said that what really annoy me are the lies and the too partial truths that cohen expressed in his article, which is no more than the typical hypocritical lecture that many detractors of peronism often use. You don't need to be an ultra peronist in order to realize that this guy made such a misserable lecture. In my opinion, only ignorants or sepoys can celebrate cohen's article.
On the other hand, this is evident that we have very different opinions about what a succesful country is. I respect the chilean model, but i don't admire it in absolut, while it is true that since chile's return to democracy in 1990, it could diminish it's high levels of poverty, beside, it didn't have any of the disastrous crisis that arg. had in different moments, it's also true that something so basic like public health and education almost don't exists, that's why we have many chilean students at our public universities. Beside, it has one of the worst incomes distribution of latin america, and it's considered like one of the worst of the world. As you can see, it's an economic model that benefits rich people much more than middle class.
In the case of arg., despite all the serious structural problems that it still has, it could get many achievements in social terms, in the last ten years, but it's still a very unequal society, although millions of people could get a job, there is still a 33% of workers who don't have any social safe, but don't forget that we come from 2 decades and a half of neoliberal policies that provoked high levels of unemployment, that structural poverty won't be solved totaly in 10 years.
On the other hand, what annoys me also is the too partial lecture that many of you make in relation to inflation. I have explained the true reasons of the problem in planty of opportunities.
BRASILEIRO: Thank you.
Argentina President Flies High as the Poor Starve
Mar 04th, 2014 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner’s administration could be termed the “Aircraft Administration.” Kirchner and her squabbling family have an addiction for state-run jets as their preferred transportation method. Recently, the aircraft have been shuttling around provincial governors and officials with title but no power, around the country. The trips take place in luxurious aircraft while the people they were elected to serve suffer economic shortcomings. The economic crisis, the worst in over a decade, has left many poor without the ability to buy food.
http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/argentina-president-flies-high-as-the-poor-starve/
186
Mar 04th, 2014 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0not to mention her daily trips by helicopter from olivos to casa rosada round trip.
not to mention her weakness for louis vuitton, hermes, etc.
as if she were going to be prettier for using them. yuck
http://www.larazon.es/detalle_hemeroteca/noticias/LA_RAZON_451684/8071-cristina-kirchner-mas-de-100-000-euros-encima#.Ttt19uByEuO9KlX
185
Mar 04th, 2014 - 05:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What lies ??
What to partial truths??
Your comment is loaded with adjectives but little or no facts at all. In Argentina it is more expensive to send a Lorry from Mendoza to the port of Rosario, than a container on a ship from Rosario to Shangai city. 36% of any truck or flete are diveded between the gov't and Moyano. You cannot seriously compete in todays world like this and the highways in the state their in and very poor infraestructure. The world economy is too intangled to devaluate like it used to be 10 years ago to competitiveness levels and avoid all the loop holes. There is a limit to that. Chile never had the burden of Unions and heavy State on the economy as Argentina.
FFS.....You still think Chile and Argentina are in the 1960s, the stats are all against Argentina in healthcare and education. Get real wake up to the real world. Talk facts and not ideology!!! There is no substantial difference in social aspects of each country (considering that is that the Argentine crony INDEC numbers that provides to the world)
Death rates. (per 1000 hab)
Chile 5.86
Argentina 7.35
Infant mortality rate (per 1000 hab)
Chile 7,19
Argentina 10, 24
Infant underweight rate
Chile 0,5%
Argentina 2,3%
PISA ranking
Chile 51
Argentina 59
Argentina spends 5% of GDP more in healthcare than Chile 8,1% to 7,5%
Argentina spends 6,1% of GDP in Education, Chile 4,5%
To all this both countries have identical obesity rates.
The only aspect worth considering is the x3 times ammount of Argentine doctors per 1000 hab than Chile has...
Its also about being effective, Argenitina is not with what it spends
(CIA FACTBOOK)
Axel, Do you consider Kirchner family and minions part of the oligarchy that is ruining Argentina?
Mar 04th, 2014 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If not please explain.
I hear you are going on strike.
Only getting 1/2 of the inflation rate this year huh?
BTW who said that would happen?
Yeah it was me
You are the perfect example of a brainwashed and braindead idiot.
Lots of discussion from Argentians about the untrue article (according to them), but no suggestions whatsoever as to how to get themselves out of the mess. Contrast that with Britain where the banksters and an incompetent socialist government trashed our economy and now Britain is modestly forging ahead and sucking in immigrants poor and rich. Our government had a plan and its obviously working, in contrast KFC has no plan other than buying new shoes, jewelry and jetting around at the poors expense.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What is Args plan? Perhaps Axel can enlighten us?
@185 Axel
Mar 04th, 2014 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't respect our model absolutely either. Like any system it has pros and cons. You are correct that wealth distribution in Chile is very uneven, but you must remember that is a relative measure and not absolute.
I think the last Forbes list had 14 billionaires in Chile and 4 in Argentina, they alone distort the Gini index in a small country. What is more important is that in absolute terms the number of people in poverty has been on a downward trajectory since about 1985.
Where you are completely wrong, and this a classic Argie “head in the sand” point, is by saying:
“it's also true that something so basic like public health and education almost don't exists, that's why we have many chilean students at our public universities”
Public school is free for all children and has been for years. There are also plenty of public hospitals. In the last four years alone 27 new hospitals have been built and there are more than 40 more in process. That is a lot of hospitals. If fewer babies die and people live longer there must be something working.
The cost of many health services might seem high. but we have very low taxes. I prefer the choice. For the price of 1 tank of gas, I have an insurance policy for my whole family (6) that includes helicopter evac to the Clinica Alemana (consistently rated in the top 2 in Latin America).
Re university students: there are a similar number of Argies studying in Chile. The difference is that the Chileans get a free education and the Argies here have to pay.
CD is correct that you seem to be stuck in a past decade.
@CD 188
Interesting point about the number of doctors. There is definitely a shortage here that is filled with foreign doctors. One of the problems is the length of time it takes to become a doc here. A recent study showed that 12 years was common when considering time studied + practice + study again to become specialist. Educational reform that expediates university careers would seem necessary.
191
Mar 04th, 2014 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After noticing Chile is slightly better in health care and education stats after we spend more in each service, I have to notice also that in Argentina half of the students dont finish highschool and leave out, thats why the gov't is desparate and is now subsidising them to finish from 18 to 24 ages.
Obviously you are getting much more for each unit of GDP that is put into the system than we are.
That translates into two words: Corruption and inefficiency
(187) paulcedron
Mar 04th, 2014 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My dear lad…
I had to open your “La Razón” link just to see how they lie to us…
First thing I noticed…,the caption on Argentina’s President picture saying…:
“*“40.000 €uros. The Birkin and Kelly Bag (the one on the picture) are her weak spot.”*”
Well………………………...... ONE thing I can tell you for sure…
The bag at the picture is NOT a Kelly bag (by Hermès)…
NEITHER is it a Birkin bag (by Hermès)…
It doesn’t even resemble any of them…!
Anyhow….
I would be surprised if that unidentifiable bag did cost more than 1.000€..
Shoes are really nice… Let’s say….800€
That neat unassuming prêt-à-porter…… Let’s put a high price because it’s her… 2.500€.
How do I know these things…? I have been married to a high maintenance biatch, that’s how ;-)
PS:
That ugly Rolex Datejust Lady in yellow gold and diamonds bezel President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner insists to wear all the time, doesn’t cost more than 9-10.000€
I have a profound understanding of the Chilean health care system as I've been spending a lot of time lately being treated. We have public and private services and obviously the best quality of services are not public. Saying that, I've been very impressed with our public services which have greatly improved over the past two decades. As far as income equality, the statistics are greatly misleading. If you calculate in all the positive factors Chile has, you'll easily come to the conclude that Chile is the best country to live in South America.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0THINK: thanks for your kind comment.
169 Joe Bloggs
Mar 04th, 2014 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sounds like Mrs Bloggs has got you all booked up until the middle of next year mate. With that lot on do you still have time for work.
Looking at the work you've got on I remember the Kevin Bacon line in TREMORS. You ever seen that film? His mate says to him “Come Val, we've got a schedule to keep”
Kev replies to anyone within earshot “That's right me and Earl plan ahead, that way, we don't do anything right now”
I suppose that you are right but I couldn't resist it. Tobi is such an easy target when he gets in one of his moods.
I am sure that you are right, but I think that he is in a rage, I think that, it's not that he hates himself, he is just raging at the dying of the light. I think that he trapped in a situation and he hates it. And he hates that there is nothing he can do about it. So I will go easy on him, after all Trolls are people too!!!
Think, how can you be so ambivalent at a woman who squanders public money whilst the Cartoneros starve? I thought you were supposed to be a socialist, are you just besotted with her looks or simply corrupted?
Mar 04th, 2014 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0196
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No he is simply trying hard to deflect the thread and you have fallen for it...
193 Think
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”How do I know these things…? I have been married to a high maintenance biatch, that’s how ;-)”
WOW!! Think the woman-hater...................... who would have guessed?
Ooops, another one..... Think is like the Pied piper of Hamelin.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0TWIMC
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some misunderstanding here...
I luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuv women...
I luuuv them as much as PM David Cameron's aides luuuv little children...
199 CabezaDura2
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, not really... Just having a laff that's all.
I take it that you have heard of the saying “Never a truer word spoken in jest” ???
I always knew that, given enough rope ( and the right stimulus ) Think would, in the end, hang himself.
Now that he has revealed himself as a woman hater, I can't really say that I am all that surprised...... Only goes to prove that Think doesn't like anyone or anything, especially, it would seem, those closest to him.
I like them dogs!
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And them horses too..... :-)))
I am shocked at the amount of violent crime taking place in broad daylight in the “nicer” parts of BA.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am afraid it is only going to get worse as people start to go hungry.
Desperate animals are dangerous.
dear compañero think
Mar 04th, 2014 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0still a lot of money.
and a bit of bad taste.
you know, all that effort to show how wealthy she is.
new richness at its best.
194.
i have to recognize that ginés gonzález garcía did a great job for the public healthcare system here.
he was, probably, one of the best health ministers we have had in the last 20 years.
sadly, he was replaced by manzur, one of the worst.
at least, many or almost all the programs created by gonzalez garcía +/- 10 years ago are alive and kicking today.
and, like chile, we still have 5 of the best 45 hospitals of latin america, only overcome by colombia (14) and brazil (6)
http://turismomedico.org/ranking-2011-45-mejores-hospitales-clinicas-america-latina/
181 CabezaDura2
Mar 04th, 2014 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It’s a bit of a cliché to claim the UK is a vassal of the US, or a lapdog. This is highly misleading. There are strong emotional, cultural and historic bonds between Britain and the US. We fought together in two worlds wars and stood together in the cold war. There is a strong historical similar experience in common law and democratic institutions. The US is one of the world’s oldest democracies; we share a similar outlook on the world. Both are part of the “Anglo-sphere” world. The US is Britain’s largest trading market. Many US citizens can trace their roots to the UK. Many US institutions, like Harvard University for example were created by the British. We share a common language and similar political philosophy’s. There are strong links in the world of films, publishing, finance, and technology. E.g Tina Brown (British) is former editor of Vanity Fair and The New Yorker. Kevin Spacey (US) is current artistic director of The Old Vic, one of London’s oldest and most prestigious theatres. The list is endless.
Most (not necessary all) people in Britain don’t really regard US citizens as really foreign; just as Australians aren’t foreign. At official levels the US are often referred to as “the cousins.” Millions of British people have travelled to the US for holiday, or to study, or business. It’s a familiar place.
There is a strong link between British and US intelligence agencies, and have been for decades. There is equally a long history of sharing military information and war plans. This goes back decades as well.
Britain may be in the EU but most people have far more in common with an average American citizen (who comes from a 250 year old English speaking democracy) than they do with someone from Bulgaria or Rumania. Last year more Britons travelled to New York than travelled to Rumania and Bulgaria combined.
What others may see as sycophancy is more often than not just the natural bonds of old friends and alli
@ 194 Chicureo
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope you make a full recovery.
Given your time in the navy, do you not qualify for privileged care at the Military Hospital?
@204 & Axel
In the hospital ranking paul refers to, 2 of the 5 Chilean hospitals are public hospitals.
Perhaps Axel could explain how in Chile, where according to Axel “something so basic like public health and education almost don't exists” we have the strongest ranking of public hospitals.
Axel? Any thoughts?
Well….
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As the MercoPress staff is gone to the beach for the long weekend, I will provide some fresh & good ArgiePress News…. Where do I begin….. Where do I…… Ohhh yeahhhh…..
1) 99,3 of all Argieland children between 6 and 17 are very happy today….. A 72 hours teachers strike gives them 3 well deserved extra holidays…
2) Inter-annual Argieland Oil production up 9.8% , Gas production 9.2% (in February)…..
3) Cereal crops In Argieland developing even better than predicted…. Soy crop forecast up to 57 million tons (from previous 53 million tons)...
4) Black market dollar In Argieland falling, falling and falling….. About 11 Pesos today and nobody buying that expensive shiat…
Axel, on my visit to Punta Arenas on 19th February I was shown the new public hospital. How do you explain that? Chileans must pay for University just like in England. That stops eternal students wasting public money on useless courses. Chilean taxes are very low as a result.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As usual, you are out of date. Can we believe anyhhing you say?
rupert
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0as things are going, you will have a lot more in common with pakistanis, bulgarians and romanians than with americans in few years.
and the americans currently have a lot more in common with germans and mexicans than with the british, except in new england.
http://www.gamhof.org/pdfs/ancestry.pdf
Paul, just as you have lots in common with failed latin nations… but, thats your national problem isn't it?
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(204) paulcedron
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dear compañero Cedrón....
That's the womens way... you know, all that effort to show how wealthy they are.....
http://deci-licious.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Greatest_Crown_Jewels012.jpg
nololly
Mar 04th, 2014 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0well, not too much in common with other latin american nations, except, maybe, uruguay.
if you are referring to a trend to be like venezuela in economic-political terms, i still think (i hope) we are pretty (not too much) far from that.
209 paul
Mar 04th, 2014 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There’s a big difference between ancestry and having something in common. There was something on the news the other day, interviewing recent arrivals from Bulgaria and Rumania. They loved working in England, (mostly London). They all were eager to learn English and spoke of the opportunities available in London for work and study. If they stay and have children, no doubt their children will have a loyalty to Britain. Olympic double gold medal winner Mo Farah, who was born in Somalia is famously patriotic and is proudly “British.” Meanwhile no one from England is learning Bulgarian. Most people couldn’t even find it on a map.
The cultural, historic emotional, instinctive, linguistic and political bonds between Britain and the US (and Australia, New Zealand and Canada) run very deep. It will be a long, long time before they are truly eroded.
Equally the suspicion people have towards Europe in general and the EU in particular also runs deep. Twice in 100 years young British men, sons, and brothers, husbands and fathers, went across the sea to fight in Europe. A million didn’t come home again. These included my own uncle (my dad’s twin brother) killed in Germany in 1945.
Obviously this is all in the past. I have nothing against Germany. I lived there for a while with my then German girlfriend. I just don’t want to be ruled by them.
Paul, I was thinking more of Spain and Italy.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Think, I should be careful of posting pictures of Her Maj with her crown on here. KFC is a regular reader and will be wanting one of those next.
Mar 04th, 2014 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Condorito, you are correct, and I'm very fortunate to have coverage. The Almirante Nef Naval Hospital in Valpo is second to none, but I'm also covered by Banmedica and use the Clinica Alemana for most of my care. Thank you for your kind regards. I agree about your comments to Axel, who has a very distorted opinion of our health care system.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 01:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0I support quality healthcare for all, and frankly we are seeing a very large transition that will continue to improve under the new president.
Education is also rapidly changing, but we lack trade schools. To many youngsters are studying Design, Architecture, Journalism, Psychology and other dead end majors. (Please, don't lecture me on the merits of studying something like Architecture as there is less than 1 starting position available for every 100 graduates or so. Worse for Journalism.)
Besides the traditional medical schools here, The Universidad of Los Andes is expanding their new medical school, and there are several other universities that are expanding their new programs as well. Chile is attracting doctors from Venezulea, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador and Spain. I really don't think current statistics reflect reality regarding number of doctors here.
211
Mar 05th, 2014 - 01:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0compañero think
good one
lol
205
Mar 05th, 2014 - 02:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0rupert
All that is bleak in the context of things. The US has cultural and historic links with pretty much everyone else too.
Well into the 1930s the US was planning a war on Britain's presence in the caribbean and a full out invasion and annexation of Canada. The american attitude to Northern Ireland problem was at least to say ambivalent.
And after all you have the Americans not even recognizing the British version of the Malvinas/Falklands after a decade of war beside them in Afghanistan and Iraq...
For a strategic alliance to work it has to go both ways... It clearly doesnt. Sorry to heart your feelings.
All those things you talk about should be in second place if you have gained nothing from this alliance. But actually you have lost a lot from it.
The US like many other established powers and rasing powers has a clear idea of what it wants. The UK doesn't exept for being the US lapdog.
@ yankeeboy & pgerman
Mar 05th, 2014 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes and while I earned money dealing in Pesos you lost money by buying dollars Blue at $12.25 in the black market when you can buy them now at $8.
I have some USshit dollars to sale do you want to buy at $50 buy them now because in 2016 will go up to $200 you should not miss this business opportunity boys
Ha ha Go back to Tijuana to sale tacos, there you will become more prosperous than in MiamiShit KKnada dancing Salsa and parking cars.
@ElaineB
About your “It is true that Cuba, Venezuela and Argentina need the 'poor' voting base to retain power. They offer a little more but never create an environment where people can get themselves out of poverty.”
First you have no idea what you are talking about because no Venezuela or Cuba are comparable with Argentina.
Then, how can you say that when in Britain 1/3 of the population is living under one or other Social benefit scheme?
People have to choose in between to pay their electricity/gas bill or eat.
@ CaptainSilver
You don’t need to go to India to see poverty just go around USAMEX would be much cheaper....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxuMpSkiFOU
Close to 40 million living in extreme poverty in USAMEX lets say the total population of a country like Argentina or Poland.
Dany, stupid stupid Dany, when you were bragging about investing all of your money in Pesos it was April of last year when it was 5/1!
Mar 05th, 2014 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So even at the gov't rate you lost most of your money!
Bahahahaha
retard
There are a lot of dumb Rgs around lately. Axel, Dany, Diego sheesh it is scary these people even exist outside of some mental facility.
CABEZA DURA2. And CONDORITO.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In my comment 118 i refer to the lies and partial truths that were expressed in cohen's article, if cabeza dura2 prefers believing that my lectures are just full of adjetives without solid arguments, it's his problem, perhaps he should read my comment again, and get his conclusions if you has any capacity to do it, otherwise sorry.
On the other hand, i don't invalid the achievements that chile could get since 1990, in fact, i explain them in my comment 186, but i said also why i don't admire the chilean model. Beside, the comparison with arg. is really wrong, don't forget that we come from 2 decades and a half of neoliberal policies which provoked high levels of unemployment, it's very easy to make the partial lectures that you often do, without taking into account the contexts of both countries.
Axel, Shouldn't you be on a picket line somewhere begging for U$400/mo wage.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How do you keep yourself clean?
axel
Mar 05th, 2014 - 01:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can believe or have any ideas you wish as long as you dont impose it on your students....(The problem is that you are paid and your job is to do so)
It doesnt make sence to talk about ideology any longer when Chile spends less on education and healthcare than Argentina and gets better results. There is no longer point in talking about ideology when you have the real hard facts on the ground completaly disproving your case. Chile not only is proving better on the economical sustained growth than Argentina is but also is leaving Argentina behind on social aspects. And it only promisses to invrease Its creating the wealth that eventually the people will enjoy, Argentina for the last ten years has being burning the wealth of the commodity bonanza and now there is less and less pulling of the economy that has proven very resilient once more, but the limit is clearly evident now than it was 5 or 6 years ago
Your adjectives and your opinions of “two decades of neoliberalism” if such thing as “neoliberalism” exists is just that your opinion...But why do you talk of “neoliberalism” for Argentina and “the Chilean model” for Chile I may ask??
Menem never complained and bitched around like you do when he recived the country in 1989 that Cohen describes...You talk about these two decades and a half of Neoliberalism when the real problem is 70 years of statism that begun with Peron, not the other way round.... Why dont we compare all stats and economical outlook of 1989 vs 2003 and 1997/1998 vs 2007/2008?? Menem was even better in social aspects than Kirchner....With the difference that in the K years nearly 900 billion USD came into the Argentine State... Where has all the money gone ??
What about all the pesos of the taxes that dwarf the inflation increase by double since 2002???
CD2 You really are a distorter of facts arent you. Every person over the age of 65 in the UK gets a state pension and free bus travel. Every family with children receives child benefit. Thats where these high benefit figures come from. Everyone gets free healthcare. I guess you can only look in with envy. I have travelled to the US more than 20 times in my life, its a great country but people dont live in tin shacks in lawless villas like I have seen on my visits to Arg. You need to get out more and travel the world before coming on here and making ridiculous statements. You live in a failed nation expend your energy in trying to make it better, not trolling.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0224 Cap
Mar 05th, 2014 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What's up your nose??
@Axel 221
Mar 05th, 2014 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say “the comparison with arg. is really wrong”.
It was you who made the comparison in your post @185 - in the context of a post about the failures / legacy of Peronism you said:
“also true that something so basic like public health and education almost don't exists, that's why we have many chilean students at our public universities”
The last half of that phrase clearly shows you're are making a comparison.
You haven't been able to substantiate your assertion with any facts. Are you going to offer any?
@Chicureo
Good to hear you are getting the best coverage. Some of the nurses in La Alemana and Santa Maria could easily work summers on the beach in promotion teams - very conducive to full recovery.
I agree with what you say and wouldn't think about lecturing you about architecture and journalism students. We really don't need that many. I think that the job market will push more people in to the technical trades, but some government guidance would help.
On the doctors, you probably don't see it much in eastern Santiago, but here in the regions it is very noticeable that many many docs are foreign. It is even more typical in the consultorios and rural health centers.
Recently the medical college released data on the number of doctors that fail the professional exam. It was over 70% for foreign doctors and only 3% for national. Excellent that there are high standards, but the studies need to be speeded up and the cost of study reduced - we need more national doctors.
@224 CaptainSilver
Are you sure that post is directed at CD2?
He cant any wont ever provide facts, he's brainwashed.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0His life and career is based on these lies and dogmas he blindly believes in...He is out of date, he doesn't realize how much the world has changed. Typical of people that love judging the world but dont try to understand how it really works.
At least my history teacher was much more neutral when she said that Conservative and liberal Argentina had done great things for the country but wansn't willing to share power with the middle classes in 1916, and it resisted...
She said about peronims that it ended up collapsing in itself when the money run out.
This axel guy talks as if Chile did not go through crisis and high inflation until very recently. The “neoliberal gov't he talks about have being out of office for nearly 15 years in Argentina... He keeps on adding ”neoliberal” years by adding to Menem's gov't years the military dictatorship (1976-1983) but also Alfonsin/UCR gov't (1983/1989). so now its two decades and a half of neoliberalism. All in order to justify Kirchnerist total failure.
I know hes brainwashed little ways
@ 193 Lunatic:
Mar 05th, 2014 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“PS:
That ugly Rolex Datejust Lady in yellow gold and diamonds bezel President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner insists to wear all the time, doesn’t cost more than 9-10.000€”
Ha, ha, ha.
You must have been looking at a fake then.
The current model:
“18ct ladies Rolex Oyster Perpetual Lady Datejust 179138. Automatic chronometer movement. White Mother of Pearl diamond dot dial. Full diamond set bezel. 18ct President bracelet with concealed clasp.”
Costs £23,650 from my Rolex jeweller in the UK.
To save your feeble mind with the exchange rate that is 28,886 EUROS, so you are only 2.8 times out!
That must be closer to the “truth” in Chew Butt than anything else you have ever posted.
“Swede.”
In defence of Axel, he just does not know any better. He believes the propaganda he is fed because he wants to believe it is true. That is a powerful emotion.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0His posts remind me of a conversation I had with one of my BsAs friends. She went to university in Edinburgh so has seen another life from her life in Argentina. We were discussing why so many believe all the shit they are fed about living the K's dream. She summed it up well by saying, “They have no idea. They have never seen anything else so they think this is as good as it gets”.
@229 You also need to take into account that Peronists HATE neoliberalism in general, and Chile in particular. They hate their society, their democracy born out of Pinochet's legacy, their attitude, well, everything about them. They think economics is a pseudoscience that can only explain behaviour caused by the capitalist system and that pretends humans are just numbers. They refuse to apply austerity measures because to them they are just plain evil.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They will NEVER concede anything to the Chilean model, they despise it to their very being, almost as much as the communists hate anything resembling capitalism.
@230 If someone has not studied economic theory - and it is just theory - but has been brainwashed into believing x = evil, y = utopia, then they form a simplistic view of the world.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am sure I have mentioned here about Chilean friends I took to Argentina and their shock at discovering how poor it is compared to Chile. Before visiting they had believed the hype of visiting Argentineans claiming their country is superior in every way. There is nothing wrong with being proud of one's country but to live with a completely false perspective of a wider world is damaging.
I guess it is difficult to change stereotypes. The British Empire is often referred to here when it ended seven decades ago. Argentina was once rich and developed but is now declining at an alarming rate. Chile was once poor but has surpassed Argentina and is more developed than any other South American country. Maybe the history text books have not been updated since the 1940's
But Axel is a teacher and he should no better. His students dont pass his class if they dont buy and accept his lies and biased history. No excuses for him.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Turnip at (228)
Mar 05th, 2014 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let’s first determine what Watch we are speaking about..., shall we...?
Here is President Cristina de Kirchner and her ugly Rolex…:
http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/files/2013/03/cfernandez.jpg
If one looks closely one can easily discern that the Lady is wearing a discontinued “Model 69138” Rolex 26mm “Lady-Datejust” in yellow gold with champagne “Jubilee” diamonds dial and bezel and yellow gold “President” bracelet…
An identical watch can be bought “here and now” for 13,300 U$S or ~9,700€...:
http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/files/2013/03/cfernandez.jpg
But I’m sure that an Anglo turnip like you, who has kindly donated half his fortune to Mr. Gordon Brown favourite charity, would surely prefer to pay three times as much for such an ugly watch at “your Rolex jeweller in the UK”.
Chuckle chuckle©
233. Are you claiming CFK bought a used watch in Branson Missouri? Was she there enjoying the country western shows or fishing in the Lake of the Ozarks?
Mar 05th, 2014 - 08:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@230 Magnus
Mar 05th, 2014 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You make a very interesting point.
On this forum some Argie posters might rubbish the UK and call it UKistan and point to the first world “poverty” but in their mind they are exchanging blows with a rival with whom they consider Argentina is an equal. [Whereas in reality the UK is in a different league socially, economically, militarily. ]
The same posters simultaneously hold Chile in contempt. The notion that Chile has actually surpassed Argentina in many ways, socially, economically, militarily, (although still in the same league) is so abhorrent to them, so dreadful to even contemplate, that they prefer to deny any evidence presented to them.
@ 231 Elaine
“Maybe the history text books have not been updated since the 1940's”
Conveniently foreign books are tainted with lead, didn't you know that.
Ohhhh another Rolex fan at (234)!!!
Mar 05th, 2014 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did you ever replaced that Rolex you so generously “donated” to those Argie gentlemen in the streets of Recoleta, some years ago?
Anyhow.... Yet another Anglo turnip that knows nothing about the Swiss Watch “ Official Grey Market”....
Only a Turnip would buy their good watches at those expensive high street shops....
Methinks you are you calling Queen Crissy a Turnip.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's polite
I can think of many other names that fit too.
Condorito, yes the female doctors and nurses can be charming... I disagree however that Argentina is in the same military class as chile. Back in my midshipman days their navy could have kicked our ass, but now they can't even get their ships out if port without the engines failing... Pathetic!
Mar 05th, 2014 - 09:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By the way fellow posters, I would not challenge THINK on his timepiece knowledge. You'll lose. As for me, I prefer my Swatch. As you know, the Clinica Alemana is ranked the second best in South America (the Albert Einstein in Brazil being number one), but what's really eye opening is that of the top twenty, six are in Chile.
The public health care system is obviously inferior to private and needs to continue to be vastly improved, but frankly compared the rest of Latin America, Chile is superior to Argentina. (By the way, if you judge using the factor of ratio of doctors to inhabitants, Venezuela would be considered number one, and yet their hospitals lack basic supplies and medicine.). One thing that Argentina leads regarding health care is cost of medications. I buy a lot of my meds in Mendoza as they are about half the price of Chile.
If Argentina ever gets their act together, they could easily rise to the same level of health care as Chile, but I doubt they will ever be able to again be number one.
Regarding the UK, they do have excellent care, but the horror stories you read in their papers show that they are experiencing serious problems. As far as the USA, I think they are going into serious problems unless they resolve their new health care reform which seems to have been designed by idiots.
Same mentality perhaps that populates the leadership of Argentina...
@238 Chicureo
Mar 05th, 2014 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am sure you are right about the military. I was meaning to say that as a whole the countries are in the same league - although on current trajectories we're heading for promotion and they are heading for relegation.
I don't understand time piece obsession.
(238) Chicureo
Mar 05th, 2014 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
”They (the Argentinean Navy) can't even get their ships out of port without the engines failing...“
I say...:
Ahhhhh....Music for my ears.... Dysfunctional weapons that don’t threaten our neighboring hermanitos anymore...
And the ”mucho expensivo“ Chilean Navy that, without her ”traditional enemy” to the east, is hastily losing her bearings and her raison d'être.......
Who are they going to fight against...? Bolivia...?
THINK is the owner of two spectacular watches. An IWC and a rare Russian timepiece. Most Rolexes you see today are from China, although Mrs. K certainly owns an authentic one, perhaps the only thing authentic about her...
Mar 05th, 2014 - 10:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0240. This should make you happy too:
Mar 05th, 2014 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.clarin.com/politica/Estallo-metros-cohete-fabricacion-nacional_0_1096090436.html
The National Commission on Space Activities (CONAE) last tried to launch the first experimental rocket Tronador II ambitious project, which proposes the week developing transport rockets to put satellites into orbit . After several delays due to technical or weather reasons, the launch was last Wednesday, February 26th. But Vex table 1A, which got off the ground about two meters in a split second twisted his path and crashed into the ground wrapped in the flames of their own fuel , as could be reconstructed.
I thought this was one of the “tech” industries Argentina was leading.
Bahahahaha
kaboom
THINK I share with you the happiness that you navy is incapable of threatening Chile anymore, but if I were an Argentine I'd be very upset. The naval budget is being plundered by your politicians. That is a certain fact from the excellent intelligence analysis here. Perhaps 25% is being skimmed. As far as threats, Peru seems pacified by the world court decision. If Bolivia decides to attack, it will be up to our army to hold them back. We are facing no serious threats at the moment and that's very nice.
Mar 05th, 2014 - 11:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0compañero think
Mar 06th, 2014 - 02:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0it seems you look down on rolex watches.
but the classic stainless steel ones are great.
and they are a lot less expensive and flashy than that new rich model cristinita insists in wearing.
CABEZ DURA2. ELAINE B. CONDORITO.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It will be very difficult to keep on having a conversation with people like cabeza dura or elaine b, if they underestimate me, just because i don't think like them. I don't think that neather them, nor anybody else are brainwashed, like cabeza dura accuses me in one of his comment, beside, it's amazing that elaine accuses me also of believing a false k dream, because according to her opinion, people like me haven't lived anything better, i wonder, what does she know about what i have lived along my life?.
If we have deep differences in our opinions, it isn't because of a matter of being brainwashed, it's actualy because of a matter of ideological differences, which are all respectable, the difference among people, is that some of them admit it publicly, while others pretend to show their selves like neutral or pragmatic, sorry, but i don't buy those postures.
Anyway, i must recognize that i wasn't clear enough when i refered to neoliberal policies, i should have said that since 1976 untill 2001, we had neoliberal policies, unfortunatelly, raul alfonsin couldn't do so much in order to change the legacy of the dictatorship in economic terms, which started to change since 2003.
On the other hand, i recognize also that i was missinformed when i refered to public health in chile, in fact, the numbers provided by cabeza are very interesting, but as far as i'm concerned, although i don't invalid all the achievements that chile could get since 1990, and beyond i respect your opinions, in relation to considering chile like a succesful country, i also explained the reasons why i don't like the chilean model.
In my opinion, succesful countries are sweden, norway, finland, demark or netherland, where people have very high life standards, beside, unequality in terms of incomes isn't so hight, my dream is that arg. has similar numbers to those nations someday.
Axel, NObody here is underestimating you. Nobody.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How many people and times do you have to be told you are an idiot that has been brainwashed before it sinks in?
Argentina will never be like a Scandinavian country, you are too dumb and lazy, you don't innovate and you don't produce anything anyone wants to buy. Do you think U$ grows on trees?
You are the reason Argentina is a failed state.
It is only going to get worse
and the vortex is speeding up
Axel, well at least you admit that your information about Chile's healthcare may be incorrect. That's pretty impressive hearing an Argentine publicly admitting that he may have made a mistake.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've been to Scandanavia. They pay their high taxes with few complaints and enjoy cradle to the grave benefits. Corruption is almost non existent and the last time they had a frontier disagreement with their neighbors was when Germany invaded the southern part of Denmark and Russia took eastern Finland. The last Scandinavian led invasion against another country took place in the early 1700's. Despite their Viking heritage, they respect their neighbors.
Frankly, to dream that Argentina might someday be like Sweden is delusional, but understandable as you really think that the legacy of Juan Peron has been good...
Regarding the achievements of Chile since 1980, I would respectfully suggest you look at all the progress made since 1973. (Yes, a number of major financial errors, but overall really spectacular.) And please don't lecture me on the military atrocities that regrettably took place and were unacceptable. I'm referring to social and economic progress which continues.
Anyway, I wish you well with your dreams.
You know, the IMF came up with a solution to solving Argentina's financial mess. Actually two solutions... A practical solution and a miraculous one...
The practical solution was that the Virgin Mary would come down from the heavens with 500 trillion Dollars to finance your government. The miraculous solution was that your countrymen, pay their taxes, your politicians stop stealing from your treasury and Argentines stop blaming their woes on someone else...
(A footnote, Argentines on this site lecture us about our atrocities, yet conveniently forget that they “disappeared” at least 5 times the number of victims than Chile did.)
Axel
Mar 06th, 2014 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What is so great about the changes that started in 2003? The only good thing we had for two years was the soy bean boom and a serious economist running our numbers. Unfortunately that only lasted 2 years until the K's realized they could use public funds to monopolize politics and forced Lavagna out (and other corrupt sh*t as well but I just don't want to get started on that today)
You are complaining that Elaine is pointing the finger at you because you believe in the K dream or that others here are accusing you of being close minded and brainwashed. Fair enough, I guess I'd be concerned too if people talked about me like that.
However, instead of complaining about being treated unfairly, why don't you explain how Arg could become a better nation by applying K policies? I guess our friend Cohen up there should have said something like “Zimbabwe is becoming Venezuela, Venezuela and Brazil are becoming Argentina because Argentina is becoming Norway” ... how could he have gotten it so wrong?? I be darned.
@248 “What is so great about the changes that started in 2003?”
Mar 06th, 2014 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More welfare and populism. For a Peronist, those changes are great. Of course the problem is that the K are gangsters who no investor wants to deal with and the unions are free to extort anyone. But for the Peronists it´s good that the unions can extort businesses and they think that corruption is the same anywhere in the globe. They even have their own version of the trickle down theory with corruption instead of taxes. From the Peronist POV the only problem with the Kirchners is that they couldn´t do enough.
249.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's right. The Peronist reaction to crisis is “more Peronism”. It is not that Peronism has failed, it is just that we haven't had enough of it!!! That's right. Silly, silly capitalists ... Beware!
Yes but Axel does not like the Chilean model... 2012 Foreign investment in Argentina amounted to US$12 billion vs. US$30 billion in Chile. A telling example of Argentina's failure to advance is when Vale abandoned their initial investment of US$5.9 billion in its Rio Colorado plant in Mendoza due to corruption and an unfavorable business climate. Who walks away from a nearly 6 billion investment and considers it to be a smart move? If you want social progress, you need investment. If you were an investor, would you invest in Brazil, Colombia, Peru.... Or would you prefer Venezuela, Bolivia or Argentina? And yes there are some great opportunities in the last three mention countries, but the risks are high.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0251. Rgs believe foreigners are only there to steal their resources. Plus they have a nasty habit of letting other people invest billions in infrastructure then steal it once it is up an running
Mar 06th, 2014 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina doesn't have anything anybody wants.
I can only see reasons not to invest there
especially while the current bunch of thugs is running the country
They'll be poorer and dumber next year and so on and so on.
251
Mar 06th, 2014 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not even Argentinians feel like investing in Argentina. Sad but true, that is something you can't simply blame on global recession, is it?
Chile has invested an awful lot more than Arg in strengthening its institutions and now is harvesting the return on that.
So I wouldn't worry some people trying to discredit the Chilean model. It works for you and you should keep building on the successes achieved so far.
Just curious ... what does “Chicureo” mean?
TARQUIN FIN. CHICUREO. MAGNUSMASTER.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Respecting chile, i have nothing more to say, if you read my comment 132, you will know what i consider like a succesful country, beyond it's g.d . p. The big difference among some of you and me, is that i don't invalid your opinions, although i don't agree on most you say, in fact, i don't think you were brainwashed, we just have deep ideological differences, and we all have right to defend them.
What i want is a serious capitalism, i want a strong state which intervens strongly on economy, because it's the only one way to mitigate the big social assimetries that capitalism generates, otherwise, there will always be signifficant sectors of the society excluded of the sistem, especially in a casino economy like the actual one, where financial activities are much more relevant than productive sectors.
I don't deny that kirchnerism has serious falencies in some aspects, in fact, i have never thought it was neather revolutionary nor perfect, but what i have always defended of the last ten years, are all the achievements that we could get in social terms, i know that for most you, those measures are just populism, but what none of you seem to take into account, is the fact that after 2 decades and a half of neoliberal policies, which provoked high levels of unemployment and poverty, nowadays, despite the fact that we are still a very unequal society, however our future isn't at the embasies anymore, as it used to be for many years, and this is something that nobody can deny, due to for many years, people's main concerning had been the lack of job opportunities, and since more than six years, it's insecurity, which shows that beyond all the serious problems that we still have, something has changed drasticly in the country, and although you don't want to see it, it's all because of the measures taken by kirchnerism, which could recover many of the recources that we had lost since 1976, untill 2001.
@245 Axel
Mar 06th, 2014 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I greatly respect that you have the decency to recognise the error of your assertion about the “truth” of us having no public health or education. However it is incredible that it should take CD's numbers to open your eyes to it.
You live next door to Chile, how is it possible that you didn't know such things? Chile's GPD per capita passed Argentina's about 20 years ago and the social improvements have followed one by one. It is not something that happened last night. In this context you must understand the accusations of non-literal “brain washing”. Still, it is not as bad as the likes of your compatriot toby who once categorically stated that Chile did not permit immigration. How can such staggeringly inaccurate information exist so close to the border?
@247 Chicureo
“The practical solution was that the Virgin Mary would come down from the heavens with 500 trillion Dollars...” Lol. Love it.
@252 yankkeboy
“They'll be poorer and dumber next year and so on and so on.”
They have to bottom out sometime soon. A look around the world shows that without restricting movement of people across borders it is hard for huge disparities to open up between neighbours.
@253 Tarquin
“Chicureo” is far enough from the smog and close enough to the excellent clinic, schools and businesses of Santiago to make it a place many aspire to live.
@254 Axel
You say “kirchnerism, which could recover many of the recources that we had lost since 1976”
Which resources are you referring to?
The abandoned vale project?
Failing YPF? Aerolineas the airline that loses $2M / day?
The trains? Or perhaps the Tronador II that flew 2 metres yesterday?
Is that the kind of “strong state which intervens strongly on economy” that you wish for?
Axel is too stupid to realize that the last 10 years were driven by an artificial economy with the gov't pumping in money it doesn't have any longer.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The unemployment will skyrocket shortly.
Already tax revenue growth is below inflation
Which mean the Gov't will have to drastically cut back social programs and gov't hiring
Axel, you've been lied to and you are too stupid to realize it.
Just wait a little bit and you'll see
My dear hermanitos Shilenos....
Mar 06th, 2014 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Very sweet of you to praise Axel's admission of his wrong assumptions and tendentious information about his neighbor Country....
Are you going to follow his example?
Tarquin, Condorito (an excellent judge of fine seafood) is correct about where I reside. A private financed high speed highway allows me to reach Santiago within 20 minutes. Another example of foreign investment available in Chile that's secure and profitable.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, I don't think you're stupid, just ignorant, so there is hope. You remind me of the little boy that listens to his pro-Kirchner teacher preach the ideals of your current government and urges the children to be like her. The boy excitedly tells his teacher that his cat just had kittens and his father told him that they all were Kirchnerites! The teacher urges the boy to bring them to class, which he does the next day. Look children, the teacher announces, pro-Kirchner kittens! Of which the boy interrupts that they are no longer... Why, asks the teacher and the boy answers, look their eyes are now open....
Open your eyes Axel...
axel is like
Mar 06th, 2014 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CD2 and ElaineB are so bad to me blabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablabla
blabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla You are write about the chilean numbers, now at least take it easy on me after admitting so blabla blabla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablablablablablablablabblabalaababababa bablabblabla bla blablablabla= 25 years of “neoliberalism” absolve the Kirchers failures...
@257 Think
Mar 06th, 2014 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please be so kind to point me to the tendentious information about my neighbour and I will oblige:
A) Peru is the home of pisco
B) Bolivia has no sea
C) Argentina is on the side of the Andes where the murder rate, infant mortality, poverty, corruption and inflation are highest, despite the progress of the “won” decade.
http://www.urgente24.com/224427-foto-el-cohete-k-no-exploto-pero-termino-partido-en-dos-en-el-suelo
Mar 06th, 2014 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A perfect metaphor for the won decade.
(260) Condorito... If you want to find “tendentious information about your neighbours”, go no further than to the last line of Condorito's comment at (260)...
Mar 06th, 2014 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, I would, without hesitation call those last ten years for a Won Decade....
Please be so kind to point me to ONE economical, social, legal or cultural indicator that was better or, I dare to say not much worse than some 10 years ago...., time when the present administration assumed power...
It's pretty hard to compare anything since INDEC stopped reporting accurate stats 5 yrs ago just about the same time they stopped reporting the crime stats and changed the definition of Murder.
Mar 06th, 2014 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Won decade indeed.
but lost generation to follow
236
Mar 06th, 2014 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is something that INDEC cant hide; Google Earth.
The expansion of the slums and shanty towns from 2003 onwards seing from out of space.
http://www.eltrecetv.com.ar/periodismo-para-todos/la-expansion-de-las-villas-una-decada-ganada_063544
Example Villa 21 Google earth. Compare to how it doubled in size from 2004 in 2013
Lat 34°39'19.22“S
Long 58°23'51.56”O
Villa 31
Lat 34°35'2.05“S
Long 58°22'42.94”O
@262 Think
Mar 06th, 2014 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Which part of “Argentina is on the side of the Andes where the murder rate, infant mortality, poverty, corruption and inflation are highest, despite the progress of the “won” decade.” do you disagree with?
So Chicureo is a location. Looked it up in google maps, very nice indeed. I thought it might have been a character from the “Condorito” comic.:-) (I used to read it when I was a kid).
Mar 06th, 2014 - 11:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I really have to go visit Santiago sometime in my life. I was about to go live there twice because of work but somehow things didn't work out. Two colleagues of mine went to live to Santiago and they were really impressed. Keep it up.
(265) Condorito
Mar 07th, 2014 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ ¡ PLOP ! ”...
“Don't go semantic on me, “Weon”... you know what I mean...
I'm, of course, refering to those “tendentious” quotation marks on “Won”...
The “Weon” decade. Yep. That pretty much sums up my feelings about these 10 last years. (Weon = sucker)
Mar 07th, 2014 - 01:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0PLOP!!!
CFK had to spend $10,000,000,000 last year trying to keep the lies alive.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 02:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Who knew lies were so expensive!
Silly old women ruining the country
What a shame
and it will only get worse.
@264 CD
Mar 07th, 2014 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good point. In your local media what arguments do the the K supporters use to explain the doubling in size of such slums?
@267 Think
In that case I will demonstrate my good grace and apologise for my tendentious use of “won” in the context of the K's decade of power and adopt the recently coined phrase “weon decade”, which is surely less contentious and more fitting.
@268 Tarquin
Lol. I will put in a good word at immigration to have your papers for Pelotillehue fast tracked. Watch out for Pepe Cortisona and his family, there are more of them than ever queuing to get in, despite the “Weon” decade..... and stay away from Yayita!
270
Mar 07th, 2014 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cool. I'll take you to “El Tufo” for drinks.
269
Totally agree. It has already gotten worse. Kichi just used some aspirine but the flu is still there.
270
Mar 07th, 2014 - 02:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In cases like these when its plain obvious fact they prefer to attack Lanata or Clarin and spit bile. Attack the messenger but not address the message itself
It's that or utter silence
One thing that I think is hilarious is when the peso goes down or YPF goes up the loony Rg trolls posts are gleeful.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its too bad it is always short lived
Then nary a peep when the fortunes turn
They are such idiotic fools and the sad part is they think they are smart.
The first step to getting better is to overcome denial.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0257 & 260 THINK and Condorito:
Mar 07th, 2014 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, THINK, I missed out on contributing to my assessment. Chileans normally are insecure about their neighbors, especially as we stole a great deal from the Peruvians and Bolivians in the 19th century and we're always paranoid that they'll steal it back. It doesn't help living next door to a nation of kleptomaniacs that keeps adjusting their Andean border either....
Condorito and I agree describing our Peruvian friends having excellent quality Pisco and delicious Sours. Their cuisine is outstanding, especially their ceviche. I personally find them to be polite, but stubborn and close minded. Unlike the majority, the upper middle class have a high regard for education. Incidentally, they are the major source of nannys for Chilean households. The national airline, LAN Peru, is excellent as it's run by LAN Chile.
Military Analysis: Their navy is surprising well equipped and commanded with a very capable officer corps. Their air force and army however is crippled with unreliable poorly maintained Russian jets and tanks. Perhaps they have the capability of threatening Ecuador, although with no certainly of winning.
Now with the Hague judgement, hopefully Chile and Peru relations will improve.
Bolivia DOES have a sea, it's so large they have to share it with Peru. It's called Titicaca and also have a navy, they train in Argentina...which says it all about a military analysis... The women from Santa Cruz are considered to be the most beautiful in the country. They also have very skilled pilots...they have to. Bolivians seem to be about as open minded as our other neighbors...
Argentines, who's national birthright is to eat good bife and drink excellent Malbec, are mostly a nation of Southern Italians mixed with Gallegos, Welch, a few escaped Nazis and God only knows what (i.e. indecipherable Scandinavians included), who's bizarre national dance was born in whorehouses where men danced together while waiting for their turn, sp
I can't wait to read the rest of this...
Mar 07th, 2014 - 04:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Heisenbeg
Mar 07th, 2014 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some folks are counting the hours for this week old article to be outlisted from the most commented on MP..
They cant wait to see it gone LOL
@277
Mar 07th, 2014 - 05:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're too subtle for me...
Heisenbergcontex: Glad you're enjoying it. Sorry about the cut off.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Continued:
Argentines, who's national birthright is to eat good bife and drink excellent Malbec, are mostly a nation of Southern Italians mixed with Gallegos, Welch, a few escaped Nazis and God only knows what (i.e. indecipherable Scandinavians included), who's bizarre national dance was born in whorehouses where men danced together while waiting for their turn, speak Argentino which is nearly as bad as what we pretend here to be a language, have a love/hate/paranoid relationship with British culture and think they’re living in Paris, only better. Chileans typically make fun of them due to the fact we think their squandering their infinite wealth and of course as we're very jealous. Most have no great appreciation for seafood and do not understand the meaning of modesty. Tax evasion is the second most important national sport...well maybe the most important.
Military Analysis: Their Naval readiness far surpasses that of Bolivia and Paraguay and perhaps their Army tank (the TAM) is the worst in the world. Their once admired air force is currently equipped with aircraft nearly as reliable as their latest missile. They DO have in Buenos Aires one of the finest officers clubs in the world, to which I've had the honor to be invited to during visits. I do have a very high appreciation for their summer resort, Punta del Este....
@279
Mar 07th, 2014 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Worth the wait...
@272
Mar 07th, 2014 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“In cases like these when its plain obvious fact they prefer to attack Lanata or Clarin and spit bile. Attack the messenger but not address the message itself. It's that or utter silence”
An interesting hypothesis. Maybe we could put it to the test here:
Can any of the Argie posters who routinely defend the Ks explain why these villas have grown so much?
(Silence or attacking the messenger will confirm CD's hypothesis).
@279 Chicureo
You're cracking me up with the Military Analysis.
To my hermanitos Shilenos (mostly…)
Mar 07th, 2014 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“What Güeónes we Argies have been…! Long ago we were good Güeónes… We were the masters of the Güeeo…We knew precisely how to tell apart one Güeá from another…
Then came the Agüeonantes sixties, seventies, eighties & nineties…
At the beginning of the zeros, the Güeá reached his Zenith…
I’m not Güeeando you…, that Güeá was “alucinante”…
But suddenly, in the lord’s year of 2003, most of the Güeeo stopped…
The ”Güeá Ganada” had started and most of us were free of having to Güeiar the Güeá…
Same Agüeonaos seem to have forgotten those previous four ”Güeás Perdidas” though and will surely continue güeiando until thet get hipo y puntada…
Regards…
El Think…
A Güeón with personality…
(One who knows he’s a Güeón…., but doesn’t care.)
My dear huevón THINK, you're lacking an analysis of your neighbors. We're waiting...
Mar 07th, 2014 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm just a humble Argentinean weón...
Mar 07th, 2014 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wouldn’t dream of analyzing something as complex as the idiosyncrasy of a People...
I leave that to the Turnips....
@ Think
Mar 07th, 2014 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mira hueón, no te hagai el hueón conmigo, está huea no me gusta porque significa que tú pensai que yo soy hueón. Y yo no soy hueón aunque a veces he sido hueón. Pero nunca tan hueón como los otros hueones que tú conocis. Asi que no me vengai con huevadas raras ahora... A mi nunca me han gustado estás hueas a medias, así como los hueones que andan hueveando por ahí y que no dicen las hueas de frente.
Estamos claros o no, hueón...so once you've stopped beating around the huea, will you be offering an explanation to the explosion in the size of these “villas” or will you just let CD's hypothesis stand?
¿Ché weón, cachái que weónes más weónes son esos weónes shilenos, weón?
Mar 07th, 2014 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let's keep beating each other up ... only 14 messages to reach 300!
Mar 07th, 2014 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0285
Mar 07th, 2014 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Condorito....picking my hypothesys to be tested out with “Think” makes it very easy for me to win and prove.
The poor old man in the most profound of his being knows he is limited “as patada de chancho”, though he tries hard project it on others.
The poor guy is counting the seconds with his imagenery Rolex for this article to be lifted after a week gone by
(285) Condorito
Mar 07th, 2014 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why do you insist on asking weonas questions as f.ex “The explosion in the size of these Villas”?
Can't you Think?
We'd be better to switch back to English before Joe Bloggs reports to MP and has us deleted. ¿Catchai?
Mar 07th, 2014 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0THINK, lighten up and open a bottle of single malt... Enjoy life!
I wonder how many spots Argentina will fall down the 2014 GDP by country ranking?
Mar 07th, 2014 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(290) Chicureo
Mar 07th, 2014 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are right....... It's only that it has always irritated my spleen when otherwise intelligent children ask too childish questions.....
I’ll make it easy for him with an “Anglo Style”, multiple choice
question…:
Which, do you “Think” is the most realistic, transitional place of residence for the about 4.000.000 Paraguayan, Bolivians and Peruvians, citizens that have immigrated to Argentina during the past 11 years to profit from the employment opportunities in the reactivated Argentinean Economy AND the generous integration and immigration Argentinean Policies….?
1) Hielos Continentales Santa Cruz…Argentina…
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-laeDRPcgbJg/SxcawRunkqI/AAAAAAAAavU/QEg1WCCb9DI/s720/_MG_5029.jpg
2) Campos de Piedra Pomez, Catamarca, Argentina…
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-laeDRPcgbJg/SxcawRunkqI/AAAAAAAAavU/QEg1WCCb9DI/s720/_MG_5029.jpg
3) Diverse Shanty towns in Buenos Aires, Rosario, Cordoba etc….. Argentina
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-laeDRPcgbJg/SxcawRunkqI/AAAAAAAAavU/QEg1WCCb9DI/s720/_MG_5029.jpg
@289
Mar 07th, 2014 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The question is entirely relevant to the theme of the article. There is much exchange of opinion on the achievements/failures of the K decade. In the midst of all this Mr CD raised a very valid point about the dramatic growth of villas 21 and 31 - something famously slippery INDEC can't massage.
I am genuinely interested to hear, from anyone who wishes to opine, but a K supporter in particular, how there can be such growth given the supposed advances in poverty reduction.
My limited thinking ability tells me that the answer lies somewhere between:
A) There has actually been an increase in people living in poverty;
and
B) there has been a reduction in poverty, but for reasons X,Y or Z these two particular villas have increased in size.
X,Y and Z could be down to immigration, people moving in from rural areas etc.
You might be in deepest darkest Patagonia, far from BA, but I am sure you will have some valid insight on the matter at hand.
@ Chicureo
Sound advice.
I might add that Chileans in the far south report that living conditions are far better on the Argentine side. Lower fuel and electrical costs, better public services and schools. Roads are superior and wages are higher.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Certainly, there is one Chilean enjoying a much better quality of life there than if he were here: Sergio Galvarino Apablaza Guerra. Oh how we'd like to receive him back here...
@292
Mar 07th, 2014 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0See old geezer, wasn't too hard to answer a pregunta weona now was it.
Your answer raises a few more questions, but I'll take it easy on your spleen and leave the rest to the single malt.
Goooood boy
Mar 07th, 2014 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@296
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If that is address to me I would have to agree.
Who will hit comment 300?
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who will care?
I THINK this thread has run out of steam. ..
@ ilsen
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He nursing his spleen.
Speaking of threads, my liver is hanging by one...
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Last time I was sober, man I felt bad
Worst hangover that I ever had ...” Dire Straights
They've taken my access to the “water of life” away, but I'm opening a nice Cabernet tonight to help digest a beautiful lechon asado the nana is putting into the oven right now. (3 hours at a low temperature with potatoes and onions).
Heck, maybe I'll open two bottles of Cabernet...
As I earlier mentioned:
“I don't care if my liver is hanging by a thread
Don't care if my doctor says I ought to be dead
When my ugly big car won't climb this hill
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill
'cos if you wanna run cool
If you wanna run cool
Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run on heavy heavy fuel”
The weather is beautiful and my corkscrew is in my pocket...
The song sort of sums up my beautiful evening planned.
292
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So you recognize slums have doubled since 2003, thats a good start... Now how can it be that poverty is reduced to 4,7 % according to INDEC since NK came to power, and slums have doubled in size??
NGO “Un techo para mi pais” recognizes that at least 6% of Argentines lives in slums Think...Thats 2,5 million people, therefore...1,3% of people living in the slums are Middle class...LOL
The real number of well adventured immigrants from Paraguay, Peru Bolivia etc nationalized by Patria Mia has a cero less to that figure. Peronism not only fabricates local pooverty it also imports them from abroad with social benefits and give away plans in order to mantain and prolongue its power
http://secciones.cienradios.com.ar/radiomitre/2013/11/13/cerca-del-6-de-los-argentinos-vive-en-villas-miseria/
Roughly 15% of Chile's population live below the poverty line. 6% in Argentina? Never trust statistics. Chile has slums as well.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(302) Chicureo
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Foremost; I would never trust any data originating from an Argie Turnip as Mr. CabezaDura2...
In his comment (301) he is obviously mistaken the “Indigence Index” with the “Poverty Index”...
I suppose Gorillas and Momios can´t appreciate the subtle differences....
302
Mar 07th, 2014 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to INDEC a person must earn $540 in order for not being considered poor
http://www.ambito.com/noticia.asp?id=713623
In the Villa 31 and Villa 31 Bis of Retiro it cost between $1200 and $1800 to rent a “room with a bathroom”
Lanata min 5:45
http://www.ambito.com/noticia.asp?id=713623
@302 Chicureo
Mar 07th, 2014 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes we do have slums, but the number of people living in “poblaciones callampas” has fallen as poverty has fallen and immigration has risen.
People in poverty have a range of subsidised housing options depending on their circumstances. My nana, her mother and her brother have all in recent years received almost free new houses. The latter even has solar panels on the roof.
It is difficult to envisage the slums growing whilst poverty falls.
@Think
An immigration policy that “integrate” millions of people in to slums seems, at best, very poorly thought out.
Congrats, we've reached the 300 mark ... let's see how much longer we can push it.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0303 Think
It is pathetic that you still support that “Gorilla” denomination for anybody that supports freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom in business and individual liberties as opposed to that melange of ideologies that you believe will make Argentina a super power by chaining people to dependence from a welfare state.
304 CD2
If you define the middle class by income , you will certainly find a lot of middle class population in the slums.
306
Mar 07th, 2014 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know it just shows you how to an extend INDEC has been lying all these years. That is not even considering the “middle classes” who live in very low class housing.
307
Mar 07th, 2014 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wasn't trying to debunk your point, I support it BTW. The problem is that if you make a decent income, pay the city services tax and your utility bills and have 35% deduced from your pay check BUT complain about people that pay none of that ... then you are called Gorilla, Sepoy, Vende patria, etc ...
See, I think the solution would be to send the armed forces to cut the slums off the power grid and guard the distribution lines that go near the slums ... let's see how long they endure.
These people cook and heat/cool their houses (oh yes ... I've seen most of those rooms at the side of the freeway with state of the art AC sets and satellite dishes ) by illegally connecting to the already weakened power distribution network. Then we are probably paying the most expensive electricity in the continent and still suffer prolonged black-outs despite the juicy subsidies that go to the power companies. No wonder these companies demand subsidies which the govt happily pays since that money comes from the paychecks, the over sized 21% VAT sales tax ... Hail to the model you “progressive” mofos!
Sooner or later it will have to end... At lest so if the distorsions are to be addressed.
Mar 07th, 2014 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wonder how will the villas react if you cut them off from one day to the next.
Certainly they will not pick it on the army
Saw the video, Jorge Lanata is a real thorn in the side of CFK. Condorito speaks of Chilean subsidized housing for the poor and it reflects my observation as well. With a few exceptions, the program has been a major success. There are also some very good subsidized apartments that are very reasonably priced for the sub-middle class that are changing the face of Santiago. Saying that, we need to do a lot more. Chile continues to progress forward.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0309 CD2
Mar 08th, 2014 - 12:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0My point exactly. I don't know where you live, but if you live in baires you probably suffered the heat wave last December and had to watch your hard earned pesos in your freezer rot away. Cutting them off free power would be a start. Let's see how long the fu**ing K dream lasts after that one.
310 Chicureo
Subsidized housing is something that I support provided that the beneficiaries pay a fair sum every month for the newly acquired property AND pay for the services and power they consume *AND* fully accept the location of the home they are being assigned. It is a fact that “villeros” not only think they are entitled to services they do not pay for, but also want to live close to downtown. Now try to pull that one off in a civilized country ... you'll certainly end up evicted or imprisoned.
Wow ...
This just in:
http://www.clarin.com/medios/CNN-operado-apendicitis-Buenos-Aires_0_1097290558.html
It is time now for my Friday night “Fernet” session. So long buddies!
@300
Mar 08th, 2014 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Excellent post. Well worthy of the 300th marker!
Sounds glorious. Enjoy your weekend!
312, I just finished dinner and have decided to open a modest Santa Rita 2009 Casa Real as my desert. Let's hope my señora remains ignorant as she's elsewhere tonight and the nana keeps her mouth shut...
Mar 08th, 2014 - 01:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0The lechon was to cry for. The meat fell off the bones, thank God I'm not Jewish or Muslim....
A couple of additional points: the most expensive electricity in South America is Chile. It reflects the stupidity and indecision of our politicians. I noticed in the Jorge Lanta video that the poor tenant had a flat screen 36” TV and a cable box.
311: absolutely agree. I also sympathized with the poor Argentinian. 7 children, with 5 at home. I'd love to have all my children home again, but my wife would divorce me...
308&309: not a good idea, as they will riot. Gradual change works, but not this.
I now plan to dream with Dire Straits... See you later.x
(305) Condorito (#) Mar 07th, 2014 - 10:17 pm Report abuse
Mar 08th, 2014 - 03:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
“An immigration policy that “integrate” millions of people in to slums seems, at best, very poorly thought out.”
I say...:
Really...? Don't say.... Columbus's egg...!
314
Mar 08th, 2014 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I promised my wife to stay out of the internet tonight. She hates it when I get so passionate over something other than her. I can understand that.
You should really -and I mean it- stay away from posting when drunk or under the influence of paco ... wtf ? Why don't you just call it a day and close your eyes and let your primal brain drift away along with your “zurdo” dysfunctional world view?
311
Mar 08th, 2014 - 03:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well no... here in Cba we dont get subsidised electricity, gas nor transport like BsAs does. In short we are seeing as villas are transferred to small cities of the interior of Santa Fe and Cordoba.
Are they trying to discipline the interior by invading the rebel provinces with their voters??
316
Mar 08th, 2014 - 04:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0F*ck! I risk divorce but hopefully she will at last understand.
Yes, oh yes. Spreading poverty and crime is their ultimate goal. Cordoba and Mendoza were the last gems. The “Campora” boys made a good job of screwing them up these last 3 years.
They have turned this country into a narco-state, ruled by the mafia that holds its corrupt power over 6 million voters at the conurbano (greater baires).
Even if Cristina can't run for another period, what choices are we left with? Wimpy Scioli or garbage collector Massa. Same ol' same ol'. The f*ck with them.
Charly was an altar boy compared to these crooks.
Think, if it's in any consolation to you the aboriginal town camps I saw in Alice Springs and the boundary between the 'wet' and 'dry' parts of Santa Teresa Mission would rival any slum for sheer misery. It wasn't financial poverty that was the culprit so much as a poverty of spirit. The consequences of 200 years+ of grief. And alcohol. And unrelenting violence.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 05:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0(318) Heisenbergcontext
Mar 08th, 2014 - 07:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say…:
”Think, if it's in any consolation to you the aboriginal town camps I saw in Alice ….”
I say…:
As I believe you know, what you saw in Alice is NOT any “consolation” for me…
The basic difference between posters like like Mr. “CabezaDura” or Mr. “Tarquin Fin” and posters like yourself and yours truly is that the former only consider human beings to have “earned” their human rights AFTER they have got an education, a job, a “decent” place to live and contribute to the dominant society in the ways they like… (That concept of “earning” ones human rights is a tricky one…. It can always be expanded by other attributes as race, colour, gender, religion, political standpoint, sexual preferences, height, body mass index, body smell etc. etc. etc.)
Those posters remind me somehow of some Indian students I met not so many decades ago…..
Intelligent active young Brahmin men…… willing to burn themselves alive in Indian squares to fight the Dalit student quota….
A similar, though milder paternalistic feudal caste system is alive and well in our South American higher/middle classes…
@319 Think
Mar 08th, 2014 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0I had second thoughts about that first sentence, realising how it could be interpreted - no slur on your compassionate instincts is intended. I don't see the rest of your para re: your fellow Argentine posters in the same light though. I too have net some astoundingly arrogant Indians - some of whom I'm related to alas. The same sense of entitlement I witnessed in them is absent in Tarquin & CD.
(313) Chicureo
Mar 08th, 2014 - 09:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0You wrote yesterday…:
”The lechon was to cry for. The meat fell off the bones, thank God I'm not Jewish or Muslim.... ”
I say…:
Well….. If you were a ”True Penitential Disciple of the One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church”… (as most former members og the Shilean Navy are), you would know that yesterday was the first Friday of Lent (Cuaresma)… and that you were supposed to abstain from flesh!
Ergo...: Lechón was baaaaad for your spirit…… (and your liver ;-)
(320) Heisenbergcontext
You say...:
“The same sense of entitlement I witnessed in them is absent in Tarquin & CD.”
I say...:
Arrogance and entitlement are very much there...
You are just not so familiar with the ”Entitlement Discourse and Methods ” of the former South American ruling classes...
I am...
@321 Think
Mar 08th, 2014 - 09:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'd take your word for it but I'm not that willing to abandon my instincts lol. Sorry...
(322) Heisenbergcontext
Mar 08th, 2014 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ain’t the prevalence of Reason over Instincts what differentiates Human societies from a pace of Asses, a cacke of Hyenas, a sounder of Swine, a shrewdness of Apes, a troop of Monkeys, or even....... a congress of Baboons?
@ Think
Mar 08th, 2014 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You familiarity with arcane knowledge is impressive ( a sounder of Swine - really??!! ), but the short answer is it depends on what kind of instinct. Sometimes you over-think things Think.
( 324) Heisenbergcontext
Mar 08th, 2014 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would replace the word “Instinct” with “Intuition” then...
You know…, that spiritual faculty, above both Reason and Instinct which, when properly used, illuminates Reason and makes man better… I think.... ;-)
Whoops of “Gorillas”, flanges of baboons... just can't suppress the instinct to refer to some arcane comedy:
Mar 08th, 2014 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Think debating with a Gorilla:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCYGm1vMJ0
Bring me a sounder of swine so my butcher may prepare me a feast.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0THINK, you sound like the Mother Superior of Chabut...
Blame my lack of being pious on the Grange, where I was taught by Protestants that as long as you played Rugby well, they could care less if you regularly attended Mass.
As tradition, Wednesday's somber dinner was lentils with table water. Last night, the family all had an agenda, and it was just me, nanny and a desire to be bad. (No, not that bad... She's not my type..)
I'm not so worried about my immortal soul as much as missing out on enjoying life, whatever limitations... I love smoked ham, bacon, ribs, sausage as well as mariscos and congrio. That's why I'm thankful I'm not Jewish, Muslim or a strict Catholic during Lent. Do you really believe that all Chilean officers are Opus Dei?
325. How come you haven't posted the real peso price is over 11/1 again.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They can't really seem to keep it down even though they are spending U$100s of Millions trying.
Real money they don't have
I see food inflation is 100%/yoy now.
That didn't take long
Are you in hyper-inflation yet?
Is 100% hyper in that horrible place?
Do we have to wait until its 200% do call it what it is?
Condorito, are you sure that was THINK? He seemed a bit too congenial. I sort of imagined him having a Scandinavian accent.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(326) Condorito
Mar 08th, 2014 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In my world…., the Gorilla on that excellent linked video of yours is that fair skinned, chubby ginger Anglo sitting on the left ;-)
(327) Chicureo
You say...:
“ Do you really believe that all Chilean officers are Opus Dei?”
I say...:
No, of course not all of them!.................. Just the ones that matter.
Corruption, corruption it always comes down to corruption.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It will never change and it will only get worse.
The vortex is spinning faster and faster as it nears the bottom
The Pampa is not taking off ... but the millions still fly
Since 2010 the state puts millions in factory aircraft, FADEA, where the main project, the Pampa III, is paralyzed and the other production plans face the same fate. Meanwhile, the new managers perform a comprehensive audit for allegedly diverting millions of dollars. What is all the Cámpora in all this?
http://www.urgente24.com/224455-el-pampa-no-despega-pero-los-millones-siguen-volando
@135 Think
Mar 08th, 2014 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Intuition works for me.
@136 Condorito
RIP Mel Smith
Think
Mar 08th, 2014 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you think I would be so enraged about the govt giving away free stuff if I belonged to the ruling class?
Don't you think that I know what human rights are? Is stealing a human right?
Did any of my statements led you to assume that I was discriminating slum dwellers based on race?
You are just defending a mind set that makes these people demand free stuff instead of jobs. See, that is the pivotal difference between my world view and yours. I believe needy people should be helped in getting the means to be productive and get educated. Have you seen any demands for education or tools in the latest social protests?
(333) Tarquin Fin
Mar 08th, 2014 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say...:
“Do you think I would be so enraged about the govt giving away free stuff if I belonged to the ruling class?”
I say...:
Well..... I don't “Think” you belong to “La Negrada” because of...:
Your Anglo nick...
Your English proficiency...
The general content of your comments...
And, last but not least, those odd Anglo-mistakes you make when writing in Spanish...
You passed through Congresso the other day, you said........ Congresso?
El THINK Actually most of the elite of the naval mafia belongs to the Legionarios de Cristo. A group you could not reward me with an admiralty to belong . They to that tolerated me only because of my A2 connections which almost exclusively were Old Boys. Like Argentina, it's who you know and where you went to school. And no, I do not belong to one of the 20 families...
Mar 08th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Have a nice weekend all.
(335) Chicureo
Mar 08th, 2014 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Neither do I... ;-)
Nice weekend to you too...
To Mr. Tarquin Fin....
About my post (334).... Sorry, my bad….. It wasn’t you, that ”Congresso” guy…. It was Mr. Klingon…..
http://en.mercopress.com/2014/03/05/malvinas-negotiations-will-take-place-sooner-than-later-forecasts-cristina-fernandez#comment311967
Think
Mar 08th, 2014 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the fundamental difference between you is......Hmmm I dont know there is so many that I dont know where to start from but you believe Argentina is going to “Swedeniseze” itself to development... Its not going to happen.
You believe also that middle class and high class sectors are predisposed to be “bad, the oligarch exploiters” and low class “the exploited and excluded”, and that to level the social gap done of course by the peronist or socialist state that the means justify the ends.
So all the corruption, mismanagement, inflation, crisis, crime rife, narcotic trafficking, individual rights and freedom of speech is worth trampling in order to achieve your socialist utopia.
Not only you back a idea that has proven already wrong and that is destined to completaly fail, you are actually pulling back the country; you are a throwback who accuses others that dont share your commie views like TF as a “outsider” or “gorillas” like yours truly. You are scum of the lowest Think, I have read between lines of your posts many times and I'm aware of your dishonest attitude. Just like Stevie did to me calling me a “sepoy” when i has being born and bred and lives in Denmark. Disgusting hypocrit
You are NOT a good guy, of that i was always certain
CONDORITO.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the same way that i was missinformed in relation public health in chile, you are missinformed respecting ypf and aerolineas.
Both companies work much better now than when they were private, ypf is making huge iverstments in explorations, and it's looking for foreing enterprices to invert in vaca muerta too, beside, since 2012, it could stop the declining in oil and gas productions, and both productions increased.
Respecting aerolineas, although it still has deficit, however it could recover many of the destinies that it had lost during the years of private administration, beside, it's the only one airline which travels to the whole country, due to aerolineas complies a social function, not just a function of profits, anyway i understand that perhaps you would never agree on this.
On the other hand, respecting chile, i never said that it changed from one day to another, in fact, in my comment 185 i explained that i don't invalid the achievements that chile could get since 1990, but i also explained the reaons why i dont' like the chilean model, i already said what's the model i want for argentina, sorry if you don't agree on what i think.
Aerolineas has a very profund, important social function...fill the pockets of Recalde and send in Camporista ñoquis to parasite the company paid by all.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0VM has being discussed here. There will be no mevement there at lest till the next decade. YPF is rubbish it has being emptied by Eurnekian and Eskenazi since 2008 its logical Repsol wouldn't invest a dollar in the country ......and now we will end up paying Repsol nearly 10000 MM USD over the next years. The Argentine gov't preassuered Repsol YPF to hand out dividends of 142% since 2008
Sorry its not the way you “think”...Its that your brainwashed mentality is completaly unable to recognize facts nor numbers.
Out of date, out of reality, you are not even worth considering seriously axel
Axel
Mar 08th, 2014 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have got to be kidding me...
Areolineas is a joke.
YPF is a tragedy
So you don't care for the Chilean model? Ok, that's fine.
You prefer the Scandinavian model instead...? Ok, here's how you do it...
Send out invitations to everyone involved in the labor movement, government, social rights, etc... The venue should be large, let's say the national stadium... The “disappear” them.
Hold on... Too many people to disappear... Ok, a thermo nuclear bomb downtown ... No still to many people to disappear...
Sorry, but there is no solution... Too many Argentines...
Maybe Condorito has a solution.
340
Mar 08th, 2014 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me translate his feeble thinking
Argentine main streem mentality has made him believe that YPF and Aerolineas were the “crown jewels of the country” given away by Menem to those evil vulture capitalist foreigners in the early 1990s and now they have being restored to Argentina and to serve the people, no matter the cost, no matter the corruption and inefficiency of those who run these key asset companies (he doesnt realize that in the outside world they are considered rubbish and the shares worthless)...the means justify the ends to walk a step foward to this socialist utopia Sweden like Argentina...Even if for each step foward are taken 3 steps back are done in the proccess. It never ends with these useless throughbacks
Aerolineas has one of the oldest fleets of wide body jets in the world. They couldn't afford to by Airbus or Boeing so they bought Embraer to fly long distance.
Mar 08th, 2014 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At some point they'll have to upgrade everything. The Embraer jets are going to go through their lifespan very quickly using them like they do.
And the rest of the fleet is from 2009.
I wouldn't fly that airline for any amount of money.
I can't imagine how they still have landing rights in the USA.
but I am sure it won't be for much longer.
(340) Chicureo
Mar 08th, 2014 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 01) YPF renationalization was an excellent thing for Argentina....
It will undoubtedly become the Argentinean CODELCO...
2) Aerolineas Argentinas should concentrate on internal flights and leave the fancy international stuff to other, better actors in the market.
Now to more important things....
Did you watch the Rugby game ? :-))))))))
http://info.santiago2014.cl/ESP/ZZ/ZZM195U_SC2014@@@@@@@@@ESP.htm
342
Mar 08th, 2014 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How long for an Argentine version of MH370 of Malasian airlines??
THINK
Mar 08th, 2014 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0IF the money budgeted for the shale fields is not skimmed off by CFK, and the foreign investment is allowed to do their work, or will be a gold mine for Argentina. I totally agree your suggestion about AA.
Regarding the link, it seems to not be working, but is haven't seen any games for sometime now. Have a good evening.
#344. Indications are that the craft may have been brought down by terrorism. Nothing to joke about.
@338 Axel
Mar 09th, 2014 - 01:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe Aerolineas and YPF will turn in to sound businesses one day. However, I prefer the system that has let our national airline LAN dominate the continent, generate wealth and not consume one peso of our taxes; to the system that has given you an airline that can't survive without consuming your taxes.
@Think
You say of YPF
“It will undoubtedly become the Argentinean CODELCO...”
I think you are overlooking 1 very important point. Codelco exists along side a ruthlessly efficient private sector with which there is fluid exchange of people, ideas and practices. If, as some close to the new government wish, Codelco took over all the private mines our productivity would become a fraction of what is currently is and the industry would fall behind the rest of the world.
336 Think
Mar 09th, 2014 - 02:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0You kept me wondering for a while there though :-)
Apology accepted. I guess we'll never agree with each other in general but your point about Aerolineas dedicating itself to local flights only is a good one.
Just to set the record straight, I have no anglo ascendant at all. Born and raised in central Argentna, my lineage is kind of blurry since it includes croatian, serbian, italians, criollos, euskarras, swiss-german ... guess you can barely call that a lineage at all!
I also don't come from a wealthy or conveniently connected family. My grandfather was a metal worker then a plumber, my parents never finished high school, the dogs we had where all rescued from the streets and my education was always public except for a few years that I attended a 25 Australes per month catholic private but subsidized school. My english language proficiency comes from my eagerness to become an astronaut at age 7 and also living in the US twice, once as an exchange student and once as a temporary work assignment in the Detroit area.
338 Axel
With all due respect, please forgive me for coming down harshly on you, but you keep repeating the same Camporonga propaganda over and over again.
339 CD2
Loved your appreciation of the social function of nationalized Aerolineas.
340 Chicureo
“Too many Argentines ” ... You silly rabbit.
I know that at both sides of the Andes we have been raised to hate each other guts but it is time now to break away from all that sh*t, don't you think?
342 YB
Agreed. Did you ever listened to Enrique Pyñeiro?
Honestly I dont see the point in AA flying local if we already have Austral to do the same thing (which was also nationalized)... And very few Argentines travel within the country by plane.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 02:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Just scrap the useless money eating, corruption nest and good for nothing Aerolineas and use the money instead to fix up the roads, railways, ports, add in more lanes to the national Rutas.
FFS these guys cant even supply base Marambio with their own military planes but they are eager to waste $3 MM USD per day in Aerolineas for the sakes of “conecting the country”... What a joke
Aerolineas and Futbol para Todos has to go
Aerolineas and Austral are the same thing. Austral should be scrapped and a direct flight covering Salta, Tucuman, Mendoza and Neuquen would be a great “social accomplishment” instead.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 03:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, Futbol para Todos has to go. I sincerely wish we get disqualified at the first round of the 2014 Brazil world cup. We don't need another spurious sport victory to further feed our dysfunctional national ego.
349
Mar 09th, 2014 - 03:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0349
Fair enough. I would just leave it to TAM, GOL or LAN to fly that concession and use the money instead for railways, roads, tunnels,bridges, highways but either way you are still forced to cut AA in 60 % of its fleet
18 million USD just to transmit the WC is insane... And guess what we pay it twice because we already are paying a part of TeleSur of Venezuela (propaganda machine).....So yes “De Zurda” transmitted by TeleSur who has just employed Maradona and VHM in dollars is in part paid by us
(347) Tarquin Fin
Mar 09th, 2014 - 07:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Young man… Just to set the record straight… After your ”Gorilla” comments at (308), (315) & (317) as…:
”Send the Armed Farces to cut the slums off the power grid”*
*(Most Villas are NOT on the grid, they are provided with diesel generators by the respective municipalities, following national and local legislation)
”We are probably paying the most expensive electricity in the continent”*
*(No, we are not… Stop whining, breaks my hearth seeing a “Gorilla” cry ;-)
”Stay away from posting when drunk or under the influence of paco ... let your primal brain drift away along with your “Zurdo” dysfunctional world view”*
*(I hardly ever post (or drive) under the influence…. Besides, during the “Gorilla” decades, being called ”Zurdo” amounted to a death sentence… I somehow resent that…)
”Charly was an altar boy compared to these crooks.”*
*( I take it, you don’t know Charly…)
……........You are not one of my favourite Argie posters at Mercopress…. However, the line about “Your Callejeros” demonstrates that even ”Gorillas” are provided with a heart…
Use it…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb9wUtAJ5es
The remaining months of 2014 will tell us what will happen with VM and YPF for the next generation.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If massive investment isn't realized by the eoy it will not happen for a very long time or ever.
Renault is the first car mfg to idle the plant but it won't be the last.
The Ks are trying to squeeze the working class wages to tamp down inflation. Without the unions pitching in it could be a very interesting next few months!
I've said before this will probably be a pivotal year, lots and lots of forces that are out of the Ks control are coming together all at the same time.
and it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people!
TWIMC
Mar 09th, 2014 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just a few of last week’s news from VACA MUERTA…:-))) :
03/03/2014
800,000 millions U$; the estimated value of the recoverable oil in VACA MUERTA… :-)))
5,000 millions U$; the renationalization price paid to the Spaniards for VACA MUERTA… Do our own math’s :-)))
http://www.infonews.com/2014/03/03/economia-127355-el-valor-del-petroleo-de-ypf-en-vaca-muerta-supera-los-us-800-mil-m.php
05/03/2014
U$ 1.2 Billion for 15 new rigs to VACA MUERTA… :-)))
http://www.infonews.com/2014/03/03/economia-127355-el-valor-del-petroleo-de-ypf-en-vaca-muerta-supera-los-us-800-mil-m.php
09/03/2014
From Patagonia Argentina, Neuquen, Añelo, we proudly present the latest Argentinean digital newspaper…..: VACA MUERTA NEWS… :-)))
http://www.infonews.com/2014/03/03/economia-127355-el-valor-del-petroleo-de-ypf-en-vaca-muerta-supera-los-us-800-mil-m.php
U$25-30B a year is needed to develop VM. 1 or 2B here and there over a couple of years is a rounding error.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There may be oil there, but it may be impossible to get to with today's technology and possibly unprofitable.
Nobody knows yet...especially you Think.
You've never been right about anything
Not once
Not ever.
Argentina has neither the brains or the cash to develop it. Aren't they begging in the USA right now.
Let's see if anyone ponies up the cash.
I would doubt it
TWIMC (but specially for my hermanitos Shilenos;-)
Mar 09th, 2014 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Speaking about oil.....
Please don't “Think” for a second that VACA MUERTA is a lonely Cow..
There are various other reasons for YPF's' Re-Nationalization at this moment in time....
Here some of them...:
http://www.infobae.com/2014/02/21/1545309-riqueza-fin-hay-varias-vacas-muertas-que-argentina-pase-ser-una-potencia-energetica-mundial
352 Think
Mar 09th, 2014 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. Diesel generators in Villas? These ones don't look like any diesel generators that I'm familiar with. Am I not aware about some nac&pop advanced development in the field of free energy?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6XnjfBC2V4A/TYX_8DBB-xI/AAAAAAAAifA/CEeNqrmnE8k/s1600/800px-Audi_A6_C6_3_2.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6XnjfBC2V4A/TYX_8DBB-xI/AAAAAAAAifA/CEeNqrmnE8k/s1600/800px-Audi_A6_C6_3_2.jpg
2. I wasn't whining about how much I have to pay when I get the bill but was complaining about how much it costs to us as a whole. That's what a ruthless Gorilla I am. If you intend to get an estimate of this cost, you also have to take into account quality of service and subsidies (that we all pay due to the ridiculous over sized taxes and inflation). Please don't look at the official numbers when doing the math. Thank you.
3. Suggesting that you post under the influence was insulting. Please accept my apologies on that. I know that being dubbed a zurdo implied in those days and I don't want anything like that to happen to us again. Just keep in mind that it all started under Peronist rule. Are these the Gorillas you are talking about?
You just call me a gorilla because of pin pointing the lack of criteria and corruption of the nac&pop model. I can bear that cross since I'm already bearing it. Funny thing, I have already been evicted from certain social gatherings because I refuse to buy rotten fish.
4. Charly was indeed an altar boy if you just compare what he stole and what the Ks are stealing. I know both kinds. Do not rule out my observation capabilities based on age only.
I can understand why I'm not your favorite poster here. I guess I can live with that.
355. You do realize that there's lots and lots of unexplored OG potential in the world right?
Mar 09th, 2014 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and it will probably be unrealized potential for a very long time.
Do you seriously think if it was profitable the OG companies would be staying away?
That poor YPF Prez must be very tired of having doors slammed in his face.
I bet he wished he never took that job.
(356) Tarquin Fin
Mar 09th, 2014 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 01) My bad (again)….. Old info from my time at the Bajo Belgrano and Colegiales villas….
....”Hoy, las villas porteñas cuentan con transformadores que tienen medidores comunitarios. Sin embargo, dentro de ellas los tendidos se continúan a gusto de los vecinos, sin controles ni del Estado ni de las empresas que garanticen una conectividad segura.”
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1358848-alto-consumo-de-electricidad-en-villas
2) Whine is whine.... and you were whining…..Completely unbecoming on a “Ruthless Gorilla” ;-)
3) No sweat…………. About your knowedledge of recent Argentinen history…. I think you should ask the curitas for a partial refund on those 25 Australes….. Anyhow; there as always been Gorillas in Peronism… Lots of them…
Speaking about Gorillas, your later civilized behavior forces me to promote you to ”*” Just ⅓ Ruthless Gorilla ”*”
4) When I said that “You don’t know Charly”... I meant that you really…, really…, really…. don’t know that charming mythomaniacal psychopath in the flesh…
In my humble opinion (shared with millions of the humblest Argentineans) he was the worst we had since 55…. (Excluding Armed Farces members, of course)
You are not sooooooooooooooooo bad….. after all.
CABEZA DURA2. CHICUREO. TARQUIN FIN.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe the day you stop being so misserable and reactionary, we will be able to have a mature conversation about this issue or any other. However, every time i see how you underestimate me, just because i don't think like you, it's evident that you have a very low level of debate.
You are so incompetent that you aren't even able of defending your ideologies or ideas, without underestimating those people who don't think like you. Perhaps you should learn from condorito, due to although he doesn't think like me, he doesn't need to underestimate or insult me to defend his ideas.
Anyway, it's important to signalize something important about cabezadura's opinion respecting ypf. I don't ignore repsol's behavior before the nationalization of the enterprice, in the same way i don't ignore what happened after the privatization, and the amount we have to pay repsol. However, if he really cares about discussing seriously in relation to this company, he should see that the actual logic of the enterprice doesn't have anything to do with the former one, in fact, i said something about it in my last comment. Respecting the amount we have to pay, i am not an expert in this issue, but i can only say that repsol pretended between 10000 and 18000 millions dollars, and even more, it had been said by brufau once.
CONDITO.
I don't deny that maybe lan is an excellent airline, and it's respectable whether you don't agree on having a statal airline, but in my opinion, i think that such a big country like argentina needs a company like this one, because it's the only one airline which flies to the whole country, which helps partialy to improve the bussiness of the different regional economies. Private companies only fly to profitable destinies.
Alright man!
Mar 09th, 2014 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So, if Charly was the worst since '55 (and I totally agree with your assessment of this guy's personality), does that automatically translates into “The Kirchners are the best thing since '55”? I think they are even worse. Unless you are still buying that the Ks have national interests as their priority, there are no real reasons to support that. You only have to peek a little behind the scenes to find out what their ultimate goals are.
Take for instance the whole YPF nationalization fiasco. What do you think were the real reasons behind that? Keeping Vaca Muerta for the humble? Too bad, the “humble ones” won't see a cent coming from VM.
Well, I DO post under the influence as much as possible...
Mar 09th, 2014 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When I was talking about how to eliminate Argentines, I was referring to the absurdity Argentines transforming themselves into Scandinavian socialists. It's not going to happen.... You need to eliminate the entire populace and start all over again. (Chile would have to as well.)
Speaking seriously, that does not however mean that Argentina can't get its act together and focus on the welfare of its people. If they did, what an envy they would be to the rest of world.
The most expensive electricity in South America is sadly Chile.
Finally Axel, “Private companies only fly to profitable destinations”. Actually that's the idea, but there are several examples of unprofitable destinations subsidized by the state that make perfect sense. The USA, Russia, Canada, Australia, the UK, Brazil and others that do so.
(360) Tarquin Fin
Mar 09th, 2014 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(360) Tarquin Fin
Do me a favour...
Take your Almirante Isaac Rojas dark sunglasses off...
Now, put your “Yankee Raybans espejados” on... and tell me...:
Can you mention ONE Argentinean Administration since 1955 that has been nearly as good as the Kirchner Administrations?
Just one?
½?
Ok Chicureo, I guess I was over sensitized and may be I should take your advice and start reading posts after a few drinks as well. Sorry.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 09:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axel, I gladly noticed that @359 you haven't used any prefabricated phrases. I like debate but first I need to make sure I'm debating with people that can speak for themselves rather than spreading propaganda. It is a start. Keep it up.
TARQUIN.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's respectable whether you don't like the kirchner, as far as i'm concerned, i have never thought kirchnerism is neather revolutionary nor perfect, i just think it's the best government of the last 48 years. In my opinon, before kirchnerism, the last best government of the country had been arturo illia's, who was broken down by a son of a bith like ongania in 1966.
I have never denied that kirchnerism has serious falencies in some aspects, in fact, in my comment 254, i explain the reasons why i agree on most measures taken by it.
CHICUREO.
Maybe what you said respecting subsidizing unprofitable destinations is good, but the idea of having a statal airline is good too. If the question is about aerolineas's deficit, it must be said that nowadays it represents just a quarter of what it used to be in 2008, when it was nationalized, i think that the number is 260 million dollars at the moment. Perhaps in a few years, the company has surplus.
362 Think
Mar 09th, 2014 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is tough one. You've put me in the spot here. To fully answer your question I'm going to have to be blunt. I really don't think we've ever had a decent administration since 1810 with the Kirchners probably at the pole position in the grand theft and subterfuge categories.
Going back to your question, since '55, the best administration we had was Lavagna.
(365) Tarquin Fin
Mar 09th, 2014 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And.... Who was “The Mr. President” and Boss over your beloved Lavagna?
366
Mar 09th, 2014 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0His first boss was Duhalde. His second boss and the one that forced him out was your beloved Nestor.
I wonder why Nestor wanted him out. I really don't wonder, I know. You should wonder.
axel
Mar 09th, 2014 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me be frank
I underestimate you because you cant provide nor understand facts nor numbers, and I sence in you all the problems of Argentina's mentality and you are too blind too see it. People from the outside see it and they warn you and explain you Argentines like myself and others who have travelled abroad and met people from abroad are also saying the same thing too you and explaining ad nauseum..
There is no point in further talking about it Argentina's decline since the comming of Peronism since you dont recognize the importance and the wealth that Argentina had achieved and accumulated in the 1900s and you deny the decline in GDP ranking from the end of WWII with the arrival of Peronism.
This is fact whether you like it or not... All the policies “your ideas” “your thinking” have failed. You need to start wondering were you are getting it wrong yourself.
To all those un grateful Argentines; With the last candle we have remaining after the light blackouts you should all go marching in procession to Anillaco to ask for forgiveness to the only guy that actually bothered to stear away Argentina from populism and statism and made it a respectable part of the world for 10 years. But more even so to Cavallo. Though his gov't only managed to put a step in the right direction. It completaly fell short of what should have being achieved.
“La ingratitud es peor que la alcahuetería”
http://opinion.infobae.com/mundo-asis/2013/12/19/cafe-noventista-con-menem/
“Last time I was sober, man I felt bad
Mar 09th, 2014 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Worst hangover that I ever had ...”
Farmed Salmon with black butter and capers accompanied with a nice chilled Vogner that is already being extensively tasted, may have to open another...
I want to place my vote as this is really a good question...
Since 1955 until Nestor was elected in 2003, Argentina had 24 presidentes which works out to average about 2 a year. (Perhaps only Bolivia has a worse record...) Lots and lots to select from...Anyway, the best administration has to be that of Adolfo Rodríguez Saá as he had the least amount of time to screw up your country. One thing I like about my Andean neighbors is that sometimes they get the right idea... ¡Que se vayan todos!
Increasing evidence in Argentina is pointing to the police in a string of scandals. Unanswered and unnerving questions are nagging Argentines about the violence, corruption and lawlessness by the “men in blue”.
Mar 09th, 2014 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to the Global Corruption Barometer 2013, police are seen as one of the most corrupt institutions in Argentina. Extortion is one of the most common forms of abuse committed by police as reported by Argentines with “on-the-street” experience. Argentine police have also been involved in arbitrary arrests and abuse especially in Buenos Aires.
http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/pablo-took-my-mac-corruption-in-argentina/
@Tarquin Fin
Mar 09th, 2014 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The worst governments since 1955 excluding the militaries without doubt were Isabel Peron, Alfonsin, Menen/Duhalde, De La Rúa and Duhalde.
@CabezaDura2
“There is no point in further talking about it Argentina's decline since the comming of Peronism since you dont recognize the importance and the wealth that Argentina had achieved and accumulated in the 1900s and you deny the decline in GDP ranking from the end of WWII with the arrival of Peronism.”
The decline of Argentina has nothing to do with Peron otherwise with the failure of the agri-exporting economic model since 1930 when its first client Great Britain introduced the IS (imports substitution) favouring import of agri-products from The Commonwealth.
That is the real thing...
axel
Mar 09th, 2014 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have researched a lot about the oil and gas industry in the past weeks as results of debates here...
I'm going to provide you the links that show you and explain you how YPF was robbed, stop blaiming Repsol for Kirchners own mistakes and crony capitalism
http://www.lacajadepandoraonline.com/blog2/?p=11887
This is how the oil industry works in the country, foreigners are expected to put the money in and local businessman with political contacts get the pie....just like Grupo Petersen was forced into YPF/Repsol by kirchner now Manzano is being given the 60% of concessions in the country and hasn't invested a dollar in them and YPF is expected to invest and get the oil out... He simply owns the field consession
http://www.lacajadepandoraonline.com/blog2/?p=11887
YPF confiscation was a mistake....SHE admits it in her own little circle
http://www.lacajadepandoraonline.com/blog2/?p=11887
Repsol victorious and the Versailles signed by Kirchenerism... Brufau se los cogio de parados a Kicillof y Cristina
http://www.lacajadepandoraonline.com/blog2/?p=11887
Bulgheroni skeptical over VM
http://www.lacajadepandoraonline.com/blog2/?p=11887
If their is anything there experts say it will be in the next decade that anything will be done there
http://www.lacajadepandoraonline.com/blog2/?p=11887
And even if I agree that I wanted a state company to exploit VM... Why wasnt the concession given to ENARSA instead of confiscating YPF and have to pay back Repsol 10.000MM USD (Plus the 35.000 MM we have to add up to develop VM) ?? Im sorry but you have to be stupid if you dont see this
369 hehehe ... you made me laugh with that Rodriguez Saa thing, but you fell short of emotion at your pun line. The one I prefer is “Que se vayan todos a la c... de su madre!”
Mar 09th, 2014 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0370 Tell me something that we don't know.
368 CD2
His credentials were immaculate but please remember that he was the one that added about 16bn USD to our external debt while the Junta was still in power. He did this by bailing out Argentinian private economic groups leaving the tab for Alfonsin to pick.
I know his plan in the 90's was ok to get us out of the hyper but even the man himself recognised that Convertibility was thought as a temporary solution and that at some point the peso should be gradually allowed to freely flow. The right time for that move would have been 1996. Menem of course didn't allowed it as he was still thinking about the re-re-election. That is why Brazil's devaluation in '98 surprised us with our trousers down to our knees and 21% of unemployment resulted in the following years building up to the 2001 disaster.
Tarquin Fin
Mar 09th, 2014 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In all fairness he was the chief of the Central bank in the Junta times not the economy minister.. And yet in his ministery the only time Argentina modernized itself achieved investments, left behind not only hiperinflation but inflation itself and taxes started to be paid by ordinary Argentines. Perhaps the only period of stabilty we will have known in our lifetime in Argentina
Danyberger
Great Britain had siezed investing in Argentina with the out break of WWI in 1914...
If so how come during the last 15 years China has being our main market for soy bean just like the UK was in the early 1900s of Argentine beef and yet after all this years we are lagging behind Colombia first and now Chile....??
(with the difference that the british invested substantial amounts of money and created Argentinas infrastructure that lasts to this day) Chinese never invested a dollar here
374 CD2
Mar 09th, 2014 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have made an excellent analysis of the O/G industry but you should also research a bit more about Cavallo:
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/02/the-group-of-thirty-financial-crisis-kingpins/
“What specific reforms was Cavallo referring to? Under Argentina’s military dictatorship, Cavallo served for one year as Governor of the Central Bank in 1982, where he was responsible for implementing a state bailout of corporations and banks. After, Cavallo returned to academic life. But all that changed with the election of Carlos Menem in 1989, who served as president until 1999. In 1991, Menem appointed Cavallo as Minister for Economy, a position he held until 1996.”
371 DB
“The worst governments since 1955 excluding the militaries without doubt were Isabel Peron, Alfonsin, Menen/Duhalde, De La Rúa and Duhalde.”
If you say so ... then that must be the reality. You are a firm believer in the K gospel. Politics to you is an article of faith. Rising crime in the streets is just a sensation and according to telesur flocks of europeans are lining up at our embassies in Paris and Berlin.
also
”The decline of Argentina has nothing to do with Peron otherwise with the failure of the agri-exporting economic model since 1930 when its first client Great Britain introduced the IS (imports substitution) favouring import of agri-products from The Commonwealth.”
May be that would have been the right time for us to join the Commonwealth.
Thats just another myth-lie the left and Kirchnerism has invented. Cavallo left the BCRA the 26 of August of 1982. The actual nationalization of the debt was implemented by his succesor Julio Gonzalez del Solar the 17 of November 1982
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.bcra.gov.ar/pdfs/comytexord/A0251.pdf
Which included Cavallo's bailout. Just a few months difference. The strategy was already there. Don't be naive.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0La Nacion 18 de Noviembre de 1982
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0“El banco central DECIDIO AYER transformar la deuda externa privada en publica por los 5700 millones de dolares por lo menos deuda publica”
http://diarioshistoricos.blogspot.com.ar/2011/01/estatizacion-de-la-deuda-externa.html
Its pretty clear the desicion was taken by Julio Gonzales del Solar (though he must have being following orders from above)
Don't pick on Menem. I met him twice by happenstance, during and post-presidency. He is charming, has good taste in attractive women... and knows how to throw a party. He got along fairly well with the UK and the Americans as well as not bothering Chile too much. Yes, he is a crook, but a lovable one.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0So he screwed up the economy... It was fun while it lasted.
379
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0He was a mere chicken thief compared to the Kirchners...
Anyway..... Nice to know you were part of the Turco of Anillaco fase of “Living the vida Bolocca” in Chile
Chicureo, let's see if you can get the 400 mark this time. Care to bet?
Mar 10th, 2014 - 01:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0@CabezaDura2
Mar 10th, 2014 - 01:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Because the fairy tales of “el Campo” always was that, just a fairy tales.
What part of the failure of the Agri-Exporter model you don’t understand?
Do you know any country in this world that has a developed economy by just exporting soy beans, meat, rice, milk, etc?
Nope, all big economies produce products with high add value and services.
And Argentina is not lagging behind Colombia or Chile this is another lie.
Do you really have any idea of the size of the Argentina economy and Colombia and Chile?
Argentina GDP
U$s 500 billions (OER)
U$s 820 billions (PPP)
Colombia GDP
U$s 369.2 billions (OER)
U$s 526.5 billions (PPP)
Chile GDP
U$s 282 billions (OER)
U$s 335 billions (OER)
If you are so fascinated with the Colombia success why don’t you move there to follow your “granero del Mundo Dream”
Oh! wait a minute farmers are being destroyed by the condition imposed by US to enter into the TLC.
Resolución 970 and the certified seeds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZWAqS-El_g
@ Tarquin Fin
I don’t believe in anything and you?
If you want to be part of the Commonwealth or better off if you want to be part of England what is stopping you mate?
You just need a one way ticket to Heathrow airport...
DB
Mar 10th, 2014 - 02:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0You do not believe in anything, do you? That's odd. You left the Kirchners out of the worst govt list. That means you believe their discourse without evidence, is that so?
First time with Menem was in San Juan for a government inauguration followed by a party that was quite memorable. Second time was when he was “living in Chile” at one hell of another party. We all knew he was a scoundrel, but like I said, a lovable one. And you're right that he was a “chicken theif”...
Mar 10th, 2014 - 02:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0By the way, GDP per inhabitants...? Changes the perspective.
Dany Berger
Mar 10th, 2014 - 02:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is tunning behind Colombia (confirmed) and if you consider the blue dollar economy then Chile has already overcome Argentina too...
In 2012 the Colombian Economy minister said Colombia had already become the 2 largest economy of South America if translates those already crony and inflated GDP figures of Argentina and pass them to the blue dollar (round $7 something back then per US dollar) Now the same is going to happen with Chile...
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1668074-colombia-habria-desplazado-a-argentina-como-tercera-economia-de-america-latina
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1668074-colombia-habria-desplazado-a-argentina-como-tercera-economia-de-america-latina
Get to date...
Do you know any country in this world that has a developed economy by just exporting soy beans, meat, rice, milk, etc?
That would be Aotearoa....
You want a industrialized and serviced based economy.....Fine by me, but dont punish and use the money that the only realy competetive sector the economy has to world standards to subsidise inefficent factories with differential dollars like the car ensamble plants and phone and laptop ensemble factories of Tierra del Fuego who are about to close down. Let the Argentine industry work it out by itself in the international market... Ohh but they cant can they?? Quieren cobrar como si jugarian en primera pero juegan en la cuarta categoria
To all this Argentina was richer than Sweden, Austria, Italy and France a century ago. The campo is what is keeping this whole “modelo” alive...
The campo is what really makes the whole thing work and the gov't knows it, you know it, everebody knows it...I have explained this to you already ad nauseum
@379 & 380
Mar 10th, 2014 - 03:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Don't forget his spectacular dentition. Every photo I've seen of Menem leaves me dazzled by his pearly whites. Mesmerising. He could definitely have gotten work advertising toothpaste if the politics gig hadn't worked out.
Heisenbergcontex,
Mar 10th, 2014 - 05:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0More than selling toothpaste... Off the top of my memory, there was a strong supporter of his, that later became disillusioned with him and eventually wrote a tell all expose of his corrupt lifestyle. Apparently when the book was published and the lady author had a book signing, Menem showed up unexpectedly with her book to have it signed personally. It was noted that he said something like “I still adore you” and gave her a big hug...
Even Chileans who highly disliked him, we're overcome by his charm here...
@387 Chicureo
Mar 10th, 2014 - 05:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Bet he got on famously with Bill 'aw shucks' Clinton.
There is another example of a scoundrel that has a certain charm. Even the Bush family sort of adopted him.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 06:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Which brings up to mind another scoundrel, Nestor...
The big difference however being that he was not charming.
He was never liked here, despite his Chilean heritage...
The former two, when caught with their hands ( or other parts of the anatomy ) in the cookie jar ( or other orifices ) always seemed to be both shrugging their shoulders and winking at the same time. Nestor on the other hand...gave me the willies.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 07:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Tarquin Fin
Mar 10th, 2014 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0I left them out because I have clear evidences that they will leave to the next admin a better country that they have received.
No way that you can refute this...
Duhalde Period 2003:
GDP U$s110 Billions
K admin 2013:
GDP U$s 500 billions
Duhalde Period 2003:
External debt U$s 194 billions 78% of GDP
K admin 2013:
2013 External debt U$s 111 billions 22.5% of GDP
Duhalde Period 2003:
Public debt 166% of PBI (debt denominated in local currency $ pesos)
K admin 2013:
Public debt 42% of PBI (debt denominated in local currency $ pesos)
Duhalde Period 2003:
Unemployment 25.2%
K admin 2013:
Unemployment 7.1%
Duhalde period 2003:
Reserves in gold and foreign currency U$s 11 billion
K admin 2013
Reserves in gold and foreign currency U$s 33 billions
Duhalde period 2003:
Exports U$s 26.561
K admin 2013:
Exports U$s $85 billions
If you need more evidence please call me I am not kichnerist but I’m not stupid either if you know what I mean....
@ CabezaDura2
Please go to post on those sites related to paparazzi stuff and “vedetongas” where over 10 commentators if you are lucky you can find half brain.
Colombia has never become the 3er largest economy in SA and I really doubt that will ever archive that.
The minister of Colombia had say that just as provocative stuff to call the attention over Colombia good for him.
But I cannot believe that you are so dumb to believe that because clearly you have not idea of the economy of Colombia and less about the economy of Argentina.
Even the Financial Times had laughed about his statement.
“Aotearoa” Idiot NZ had turned to industrialisation since 20 years ago to avoid starvation by depending on the farming sector.
Where do you live in mars?
And NZ only has 4 m inhabitants while ARG has 10 time more.
Again you have not any idea of the economy of Argentina where you can do things here that people take for granted that cannot be done in countries like Colombia, NZ, chile, Mexico, Spain, etc.
You know H, I really don't mind my leader womanizing as long as he's not acting pious, nor declaring war on someone to divert national attention regarding the economy.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 10:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0As far as the economic potential of Argentina vs. Colombia, clearly Argentina has a better educated and trained populace with a substantially larger middle class with far better farm land with potentially greater natural resources. They also have not been in a protracted civil war with and enormous drug trade problem, much less living next door to some very problematic neighbors...
So my question is: Why would anyone even speculate that Colombia's economic development exceed that of Argentina...? Perhaps we should cry for the bastard children of Juan Peron.
Dany, ALong with Inflation stats Argentina will have to restate its GDP growth for the last 5-7 yrs. Everyone knows its been widely exaggerated, you are also due for another huge devaluation. I'd say 20/1 pretty darn soon.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your economy is in recession now and starting hyperinflation.
You either are or will be smaller than Colombia shortly.
My bet is after the IMF audits you'll move 3-4 spots down the GDP by country scale.
So?? NZ is 10 times smaller than Argentina, it has more % of people workin in the agricultural than Argentina has
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0NZ exports (2011)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_Zealand_Export_Treemap_%282011%29.png
Arg exports (2009)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_Zealand_Export_Treemap_%282011%29.png
In fact it seems NZ is more Agricultural oriented than Argentina is. But NZ never had Peronism stepping down their heads so there you go...
What you call “industrilized” is basically from exporting in the early 1980s or 1970s only dairy, wool, and meat to Great Britain it passed to deversify and add value to primary production and open up to Asian markets. But its still mainly tourism and primary exports what keeps NZ going.
Industrial products
food processing, wood and paper products, textiles, machinery, transportation equipment, banking and insurance, tourism, mining
Agricultural products
dairy products, lamb and mutton; wheat, barley, potatoes, pulses, fruits, vegetables; wool, beef; fish
(CIA FACTBOOK NZ)
Colombia
Capital Economics a consultant in London says it has already done so... In 2012 there was no “official” devaluation but in reality the process of overpassing Argentina had begun, the IMF, WB and others have yet to adjust the real numbers of Argentina.
As YB rightly says the GDP numbers have being over inflated for Argentina, This year will end in recession.
Y.B. Mr.&Mrs. K are the Bernie Madoffs of political class and I think the IMF is behaving about as responsively as the Securities and Exchange commission of the US did util his Ponzi scheme collapsed. They'll give CFK another free pass just like they've done in the past. Frankly, you got to admit, she's been able to get away with murder. Who knows, maybe this shipwreck they've discovered in the south is full of gold? Maybe 20 gazillion trillion Euros worth... That would solve CFKs financial problems... At least until the next election...
Mar 10th, 2014 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0395. The IMF is not a regulatory agency. It is a club. Countries sign up and and agree to live by a set of rules and regulations. The only thing the IMF can do is live by its charter and it has done exactly that. It has moved Argentina albeit slower than I would like through the sanction process. They are 1 step away from expulsion now. If the new Indec is as bad as the old Indec they will be suspended then expelled.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It takes a long time to expel someone from the IMF,
Frankly I am glad the IMF has given the Ks as much rope as they need to hang themselves. They can't whine for another 30 yrs that the IMF/USA caused their misery. It was all done by the Rgs.
@mercopress
Mar 10th, 2014 - 01:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When are you going to list comments in reverse chronological order. It would save a lot of scrolling.
@Chicureo
Good analogy Ks / Madoff.
Glad you went with the viognier - good choice with the salmon.
@CD2 & Tarquin
If you two are more typical of the Argie public than DB or PC, Argentina will come right in the end. If not, I am sorry.
@DanyB
Re Colombia vs Argentina: in the context of the decline of Argentina it is largely irrelevant if Colombia has surpasses Argentina or not. The point is that it is now close for an exchange rate movement to push it one way or the other. Go back a couple of decades and they were leagues apart.
@CabezaDura2
Mar 10th, 2014 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nope NZ has less GDP originating by Agriculture than Argentina and is more service orientated than any other thing.
NZ GDP composition:
agriculture: 5%
industry: 25.5%
services: 69.5%
Argentina GDP composition:
agriculture 7%
industry: 32%
services: 61%
Can you see how wrong you are and how your judgements are all based on bad information?
NZ total exports where for 2013 U$s38 billions what do you think they have exported more?
Right!!! industrialised products and services.
So not even exporting all agriculture products NZ will arrived to U$s10 billions.
The problem with you is that you cannot distinguish in between an agriculture stuff from a manufacture stuff an you tend to believe that if the thing can be ate that must be agriculture.
But is not like that as an atomic bomb is not mining because has uranium.
Can you see the logic?
A tomato just picked up from the land and sent to the market is not the same as “Pure de Tomate la campañola” even if they put the image of a farmer in the can and claim to be made of fresh tomatoes from your farm.
Raw material as cooper is not the same as wire or a computer even if both have cooper in it.
Do you understand?
Again there is not country in the world that have ever developed a viable economy model based on farming or agriculture. That is a big lie.
See how all poor countries in the world have their economy based on agriculture.
Last inflation has nothing to do with it because the U$s 500 billion GDP is measured in fixed or constant prices base data from 1993 series.
What that means? That where used the same price from 1993 to make the calculation multiplying by production of goods an service traded.
Also when GDP is measured by current prices in local currency and translated into USD is used a deflator which is an index to get rid of inflation.
SYL
Dany, So what you are saying is that Argentina has no future. It can't survive with just agriculture and history has shown it doesn't innovate and can't cheaply manufacture quality products.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So what's the plan?
Your Comment
Mar 10th, 2014 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perfect timing. You have to go open another Viognier. Cheers.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CABEZA DURA2.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I respect your idelogy, but it would be more honest, if you say that most your sources belong to newspapers or to intellectuals who have a neoliberal ideology.
I don't ignore that if c. f. k. decided to nationalize the 51% of repsol's actions in ypf, was partialy because of the mistakes commited by her and kirchner. In my opinion i think it was absolutly stupid to think that we could have a responsable burguesy, engaged with the development of the country. Facts show clearly that skenazy's and brufau's behaviours weren't less parasitary than the usuall behaviour of our burguesy.
Everything i say, is based on facts, not on personal opinions, you have right to agree or not on ypf's nationalization, but if you want to discuss seriously about it, you can't omit that since the company was partialy recovered by the state, it improve so much, in fact, i expain it in my comment 338. In pagina12 you can find many articles about the actual situation of the company, which although it's a pro kirchnerist newspaper, it's numbers are difficult to rebate, otherwise, show me one of your soposed neutral sources, where you can explain me that the declinings in oil and gas productions didn't stop, and where you can tell me also that inverstments in explorations didn't increase in a signifficant number since 2012.
The fact that i usually don't provide exact numbers, doesn't invalid my opinions, anyway, i think it's a good critic, and i'll try provide them, but beyond whether i provide them or not, i always talk about objetive facts, which is something very important too.
On the other hand, you keep on repeating the myth that arg. was rich 100 years ago, and ruined by peronism, in my comment 118, i say why it was just a myth, but if you are happy repeating it, i respect it. Today it was published an interesting article about it in pagina 12.
Dany Kerner
Mar 10th, 2014 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Im talking about exports...The actual stuff that gets sold abroad you stupid idiot!! NZ in raw agriculture alone exports
GDP is going to have a greater share of industrial output in both Argentina and NZ, the problem its most of it is consumed locally, but the problem is actually getting it to compete abroad.
A chart of NZ most exported goods to its main partner in the ASEAN region says it all
http://www.asean.fta.govt.nz/top-20-new-zealand-exported-items-goods-to-asean/
51% alone of the exports are under the description of “Dairy Prods; Birds Eggs; Honey Etc. ”
You want to completaly descriminate MOAs (Manufactured goods of Agricultural origin in Spanish) from actual primary exports, but the problem is that great industrial poles like Japan, Taiwan, China or Germany dont have cheap tomatoes comming from the Pampas or New Zealand at their backdoor like Campagñola has.
NZ has still a very high dependency on agriculture.... Have you ever seen planes, ships, tractors, computers, IT softwere, robotics, tools, equipment, steel, cement with the tag “made in NZ”???
The same is true for Argentina... The only thing that is making money for the country is agri-exports.
Yet how come with similar structured economies NZ is a developed country whioth its agri exports and Argentina is becoming a shithole...??
And lets be honest about the Malvinas/Falklands....95% of the GDP is based on agriculture and fishing, and yet they have achieved the highest GDP per capita in the continent
And its you thats defending the Kirchner gov't not me .... So why are the Ks desperate for us to liquidate our harvest ??? Why dont you go along and retain the dollars of the 16,9 % “industrial sector”... Why dont you tax all thos nac and pop airplane and train manufactures that we sell to the Brazilians and Chinese?? Ehh ???
How about better administrating the 900 bn USD that came into the country the last 10 years thanks to the agro sector??
Axel, Care to explain why Argentina was in the top 10 in GDP by country in 1965 and now is in the 40s? Approaching the 50s soon?
Mar 10th, 2014 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_historical_GDP
It is a rhetorical question mind you, I know you are too stupid to really explain it.
CABEZA DURA2.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have an answer for you in my comment 402, but i forgat telling you something .
I think you have a wrong concept, you say that what the government made with ypf was a confiscation, which is actualy the typical concept used by neoliberal economists. But what you ignore, is the fact that a confiscation doesn't implicate any payment, however we will have to pay repsol 5000 million dollars, then, it's too ignorant to say that it was a confiscation.
I give up you are just too stupid
Mar 10th, 2014 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I posted you very carefully in the first link for a reason... How on earth do you expect Repsol to invest in exploring Argentina since 2008 when Ezkenazi and Eurnekian were forced on board whith out buying in a share of YPF with up front money and reciving dividends of 142% since that moment?? All by the awareness and eye blink of Julio De Vido and Nestor Kirchner!!!!!!!!!
Why do you blame Brufau for that?? And the Catalan brain ended up winning the game and screwing the Argentine State in the end with justice, for his company was being manoseado by the Argentine gov't of the Kirchners for many years.
You say you talk and understand fact but you dont... you bluff them off as “neoliberal ideology” sources.
I have already talked and proven wrong paulcedron whom used the same argument you do about the 1900s. I dont think anything that you said there hasnt being already adressed by me
401 thanks it helps me to know someone understands wine food pairings...
Mar 10th, 2014 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Woke up this morning to overcast skies here and all my Apple equipment had automatically reset the time to an hour earlier. Being inept and trying to manually reset to the correct time, I accidentally reset my iPad to 2016.
Out of curiosity, I checked my browser for news and came across this curious article about Argentina...
10 March, 2016 Buenos Aires, Argentina (AP) — With no one else on the ballot, state media reported Monday that supreme Cristina Elisabet Fernández de Kirchner was not only again elected to the presidency in Argentina, she won with the unanimous approval of the country, which had 100% turnout.
Argentinians went to the polls on Sunday to approve the new roster of deputies for the Justicialist People's Assembly, the country's newly created legislature.
Though results for the other seats in the assembly had not yet been announced, Argentina's media quickly reported CFK had won the presidency without a single dissenting ballot.
“This is an expression of all the service personnel and people's absolute support and profound trust in our supreme leader as they single-mindedly remain loyal to her”, the state-run Argentine News Agency said.
Voters in the election have no choice who to vote for — there is only one candidate's name on the ballot for each district. Instead, they have the choice of voting yes or no, and according to official accounts virtually all choose yes. Argentina also typically puts turnout nationwide at over 99%.
Analysts will be closely watching to see if the deputies this time around reflect a generational change as Cristina Fernández de Kirchner looks to solidify her power and replace older cadres with younger, more loyal ones.
The Justicialist People's Assemblies work is done by a smaller and more powerful body called the Kirchner Bolivarianism Revolutionary Supreme Council.
CD, That took longer than I thought it would! I gave up trying to explain stuff to Axel years ago.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He is much too stupid to bother with.
Now I just make fun of him.
@406 CD
Mar 10th, 2014 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't give up. I think that both Axel and Dany have conceded that even if Peronism was not the start of Argentina's decline, it failed to stop or reverse the decline.
@Axel
Whether you refer to what CFK did with YPF as “confiscation” or expropriation, it makes no difference. It was a stupid thing to do. For the sake of a popularity bounce she scared off the international investment that Argentina needs. If she had negotiated first and paid Repsol things would have been very different. Now Argentina will have to pay Repsol anyway but everybody knows it is not through respect for private property rights.
@Chicureo
Up here in Elqui we have OVNIs, down there in Chicureo you have a worm hole in the space time continuum.
407
Mar 10th, 2014 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What are you doing brother? Do you want me to go PLOP! from a heart attack right here right now?
That article is scarier that anything Stephen King could have come up with. I'm shivering. Next time you need to reset your iPad calendar, please call, I can help. Geez!!!
@410 Tarquin
Mar 10th, 2014 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is your full name Tarquin fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-f'tang-f'tang-olé-biscuitbarrel representative of the Silly Party for the Luton constituency?
Or is that another Tarquin Fin?
Yours truly.
Mar 10th, 2014 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@Tarquin
Mar 10th, 2014 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A fellow Monty Python aficionado who grew up reading Condorito!
@Chicureo
I think I have identified the problem on your Apple. Your North Korean and Argentina news feeds have merged. The are easily separated by filtering for “successful rocket launch” .
auch!
Mar 10th, 2014 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Condorito,
Mar 10th, 2014 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for the technical explanation. I was suspecting last nights wine...
@400
Mar 10th, 2014 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hurrah!
(I only checked in to see if you got The Double!).
@ 407 was worth it. Slightly scary. But worth it.
I also enjoy hearing of your prandial enjoyments. It provides a leavening of the tone when the armchair lawyers lock horns.
cheers!
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