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UK 'in principle' supports greater integration of Gibraltar to European Union

Monday, April 7th 2014 - 06:18 UTC
Full article 87 comments

UK Minister for Europe David Lidington, said the British Government would have no objection “in principle” to Gibraltar integrating further into the EU than Britain. He was reacting to recent comments by Chief Minister Fabian Picardo, who said Gibraltar may in future want “more Europe, not less Europe, than the United Kingdom.” Read full article

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  • Anglotino

    Hahaha joining Schengen would feck Madrid big time!

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    Good move by Gibraltar methinks.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    Good idea that will probably take years to get into place.

    The Spanish government twats causing the trouble will be long gone before then.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ilsen

    @1 Anglotino
    hi, been a bit busy recently. Quick question for you.

    Why? Because of the border ”control? The queues etc? Or something else?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    Hmmm.
    The great Vestige likes this proposal, in principal.

    However, Spain should be cautious and retain some clauses.
    Border-less should mean border-less for a start.

    Ideally there should be no physical border, rather just an imaginary line, as per the likes of the Benelux countries, France/Spain/Portugal or the common travel area for Ireland/N.Ireland.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Why does it matter what the UK supports “in principle”?

    No self-determination?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    6 - there is self-determination in this case because Gibraltar is actually part of the UK so ... I mean... Gibraltar determines for itself, but with the UK too because the UK determined it that way, not like Malvinas where the UK determined that the UK couldnt determine, and now the kel?ers determine for themselves and the UK.
    Its kind of complicated but the important thing is that theres never Bi-lateral talks between two proper countries, because that would be actual democracy.
    The important thing is that British people in far flung places are counted as British .... but at the same time aren't actually British. Think of it as a British light-switch...(click) British mode 'on' .... British mode 'off'.
    London can press the button when its convenient.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    What a shame for Gibraltar. Greater integration into the EU means that Gibraltar will become Spanish. In about 3 months. Gibraltar has resisted integaration into Spain for 300 years. Proud of its commonality with Britain. A tip for Gibraltarians. If scotland goes for independence, Britons won't give a toss what happens to it. It will be a foreign country and an enemy. And there are 5 million scots. Do 30,000 Gibraltarians want to follow the same route? And the EU has protected Gibraltar at its frontier?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @7

    Poor old Vestige, still unable t grasp what “British” actually means.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    What does it mean oh Hans.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @7

    They are not British they are administered by Britain as an overseas territory, distinct difference. And no the UK can't turn it on or off only they (the territory) can do that. Cue the rehash of the rehashed arguments.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    @11
    So, they have [self]-determined that the UK should determine for them, in other words...

    Multiway switch?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • knarfw

    They're British citizens however they are Gibraltarians not British.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Non-British British citizens....

    Multiway switching with a delay?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    Ah so you can't get on to the boss, you have to go through the front line worker.

    - Its about the planning permission for your building.

    No no sorry you'll have to take that up with the groundworkers, freedom of speech old boy. Democratic majority.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @12
    It's Gibs choice to either secede to another state, become one of their own choice or be absorbed into the the administering power. But this has been said this is Gibs making not the UK. The UK isn't making Gibs choice, the uk is merely stating that the uk has certain opt outs such as the euro, Schengen border etc that would need to be ironed out as it's Gibs administering power and the would be conflict between Gibs constitution and it's UK statute.

    Also more importantly I feel it would Spain who would object to this move as the EU would be tactically agreeing to Gibs independence if the matter ever arose.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    There is a saying in Spanish for the kind of argument grasp showed by knarf, Ekeko and Hans.

    “No aclares que oscurece”

    Talking about light switches...

    :)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @17

    So your saying that to be a British citizen then you have to be born in Britain? What about if you Have either all or some British parentage? What about if you have no British parents but happened to be born in Britain what then? Lived in Britain? If so for how long? Married someone who is British? Can you define this please?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    I don't need to, you lot already did.

    A non-British, British Citizen.

    From Britain. But not.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @19
    Don't need to what precisely? And who is “you lot” anyway?

    If you want to debate then we will debate, if you want to try and get a rise out of people go walk in the middle of the road; good luck with that.

    Sounds like you think that holding a passport enforces you to live in a country where it was issued and occasionally have visitation rights once in a while.

    Freedom to choose the state you live under is enshrined and was hard won. Pity the avaricious think that it is easily thrown under the bus.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    You:
    Can you define this please?

    Me:
    I don't need to, you lot already did.

    A non-British, British Citizen.

    From Britain. But not.

    ...

    It was a direct response to direct question, I understand you got confused.

    “You lot” is... all of you who tries o “aclarar”...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • knarfw

    I'm British but I'm also a Canadian Citizen. Hope this helps.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @21

    You could use that base argument for nearly all the countries in the world where you have citizens holding dual nationality.

    You despise all of them?

    Btw how's the walk going?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    a non-Canadian Canadian Brit, or a non-British British Canadian?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • knarfw

    A non-Canadian, Canadian Cirizen.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    So to recap, the Gibraltarians are British non-Brits with dual nationaliy.
    Brits as in non-Brits and the less unknown Gibraltar nationality, or non-nationality s there is no such nation.

    This is affirmed by a Canadian non-Canadian who happens to be a.... Brit...

    Mas claro que el agua...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • knarfw

    Claro como el barro....

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @26
    no one said Gibs were dual nationality just citizens hold hold a British passport but who don't reside in the uk. If they choose to have dual nationality then that's down to them and the requirements thereof.

    No one affirmed what happens in gib just what happens in Canada.

    Did that confuse you?

    It's simple if you not walking avoiding all that traffic.

    Like I asked you before I take it you don't like this theory of having dual nationality ?

    @9 Godwin's law approaches......

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    So, of what nationality (or non-nationality) do the “Gibs” belong to?
    They are not “Gibs”, as no such nationality exists.
    They are not Brits, according to yourselves.
    ´
    No need to talk abut dual nationality, you seem to have problems in defining one for the “Gibs”...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @29
    I explained perfectly in @28 but for those where the diesel fumes are kicking in, they are British citizens who hold a passport who do not reside in the uk.

    I think the discussion on dual nationality is perfectly valid as it is you who is persistently going on about how it is wrong for a non British citizen to hold a British passport and the alleged vagueness this carries (only onto yourself strangely enough)

    As for your statement on the Gib nationality, go and ask one and see what he/she says. Statehood awaits if you read into this article and what they desire, are you going to deny them that?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    So they are of the nationality that they choose themselves...
    Nice!

    Tell me, Donetsk in Ukraine are proclaiming independency and they wish to join Russia, it would seem.
    Surely you don't deny them that right, do you?

    ;)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @31
    if it is done honestly, fairly, with open debate, and a long enough time to hold a free and fair referendum on the issue, why not?

    If truth be told what bothers me in Crimea is not the result (which would have panned out the same) but the way it was done and lack of due process.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    You mean like it was done in Kiev?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    That wasn't a split in territory/self determination that was a revolution/uprising.

    Slight difference.

    Pity though you would have thought the (new) Ukrainian government, first thing they would have done was to placate places like Crimea and reassured them that nothing would have changed.

    It all played into Putins hand really, he'd been piling the debt onto Ukraine for years from gas exports then gave them a convieneant way out I.e your in my pocket now.... When they didn't comply, his excuse was already laid out.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @17, @9

    I know it's hard for you boys, but you are confusing nation, state, geographic, political and cultural identity.

    It is perfectly possible to be Stevie's “British non-Brits”, that is to have a British cultural identity but not a British political one. “British” of course, is an umbrella term which describes a community of nations rather than a single one. It is the kind of identity which Latam brotherhood enthusiasts such as Stevie aspire, but are several centuries and a cultural revolution short of.

    I do hope that's clear for you now.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Ekeko
    Do the people of Donetsk have the same rights to revolt as the ones from Kiev?
    Or o they have to obey the rules of “honesty, fairness and open debates with enough time to hold a free and fair referendum on the issue”?

    Hans
    As I said, mas claro que el agua...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @36

    Everyone should have the right to protest (and debate) but the key difference was with Kiev was it was parliment who also chimed in, the meritocracy of the electorate not just some yob armed to the teeth via a Russian “local defence force” by their side. Plus there is also a lot of non Russian speaking peoples within Eastern Ukraine so a referendum won't be easily won, if at all

    Why do you think Russia has amassed troops on that border? Day out by the sea side for a jolly boys outing? Ergo why do you think the pro Russians are rioting/revolting?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    You mean Svoboda chimed in?
    So, what the people of Donetsk need is a touch of fascism to be legit?

    By the way, the reason Yankovich got a majority in the latest elections, is because of the massive support in Eastern Ukraine, despite the fact that the vast majority of western Ukraine voted for the opposition..

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 08:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    Like I said parliment overthrew him as much as the people, so you could argue that the meritocracy overthrew the dictator.

    She was under house arrest at the time if I remember so no chiming from her, not even a tin whistle

    The moment Yankovitch signed that agreement behind parliaments back, agreeing to join Russia's free trade agreement over the agreement to join the eu, he threw himself to the wolves.

    Even he now admits Crimea being annexed is a shame, but he has had his part to play in it and there is no way Russia will give up the birthplace of the Russian people.

    @35 Godwin's law.... The clouds are forming

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    As in Svoboda, I asked you?

    Democracy is to accept the outcome of an election and bide your time, should you disagree with it.
    Set that aside, and you'll have to accept other people will follow the path you chose to lay.

    You defend democracy when it suits you.
    You defend self-determination when it suits you.

    I'm done with you.

    ;)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    What happens if for example you live in a country where you as a people are distinct but in a minority? What do you express then?

    I defend both. As they are intertwined like most of the arguments in this post.

    As an adult you accept that the world is not black or white, but subtle with many variations. If you cannot grasp this concept you must be running up and down the middle of the highway begging for the bus to end it all

    The world is done with true fools such as yourself.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @40

    Actually., Stevie, democracy is also about the respect of fundamental values, it's not simply a question of validating a dictator every now and again. You may recall that your icon Adolf was also democratically elected.

    I know this makes things really tricky for those of a simplistic mindset such as yourself, but the world can be a real bitch that way.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Hans

    I never denied anybody any rights.

    Not even the people from Donetsk.

    Imagine that...

    :)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @43

    Stevie, yes you did deny somebody rights.

    You said that the Ukrainian people had no right to eject a corrupt asshole, just because he had once managed to get himself elected.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    No Hans, I said you can't be a democrat only when it suits you.
    I disagree with the coup d'etat in Ukraine, but I do have to accept the wish of the people.
    Just as you will have to accept the wish of the people of Donetsk...

    As for Gibraltar, I accept the wish of theirs, until someone else appear with another wish.

    As for the islands in the Southern Atlantic, well, I accept the deal today, as you will have to accept it in the future.

    Quite simple indeed...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Jeepers, Stevie, can'y you even keep track of what you did say? Let me help :

    @40 Stevie: “Democracy is to accept the outcome of an election and bide your time, should you disagree with it.”

    But I think it's fair to say you;re making progress, and it's good to see you've become such a fervent supporter of the principle of self-determination.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @Frogger

    your getting confused.....

    Democracy is an expressed will of the people by the people normally through a vote...which leads to......
    Meritocracy is where you have an elected person to represent you for a set period of time.

    Autocracy is dictatorship

    If you don't like the person you've voted for you I.e being corrupt. Then as far as I'm concerned your perfectly within your democratic rights to remove that person. Whether that means revolution or vote of no confidence within parliment then knock yourself out.

    Comprende?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Seems the people in Donetsk don't like the ones in Kiev for being fascists...

    ;)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @Frogger

    your getting confused.....

    Democracy is an expressed will of the people by the people normally through a vote...which leads to......
    Meritocracy is where you have an elected person to represent you for a set period of time.

    Autocracy is dictatorship

    If you don't like the person you've voted for you I.e being corrupt. Then as far as I'm concerned your perfectly within your democratic rights to remove that person. Whether that means revolution or vote of no confidence within parliment then knock yourself out.

    Comprende?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    You are stuttering...

    I like the concept of self-determination.

    Mostly I like it because I know it will smack you lot right back in the neck just as “democracy” did to Bush...

    ;)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    Not really, Ipad having a spaz..... Apologies

    The concept of self determination in inherent in nearly all civilisations and nations through one way or another

    A better way to put it democracy leads to self determination which leads to revolution which leads to democracy.....

    Not that hard.

    That's why it's so hard to deny it to the peoples of the world, it's a naturally occurred phenomenon for millennia.....

    Who is this “you lot?” Smacks of old codger hurling abuse at random people by the bus stop......

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Check te news, seems the people in Donetsk are having their dosis of self-determination...

    ;)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    Self determination is excellent ..... when you can draw the border.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @52

    Surprise, surprise. As we've already seen, the Sudetenland playbook works well with the simple-minded.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Ooops Hans.... It seems Luhansk and Kharkiv wants some of that self-determinatio as well...

    Pandora's box?

    ;)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @55

    Absolutely Pandora's box. This kind of shit kills people. Sorry I can't share your glee at the prospect.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    You defend it... Of course only when it suits you...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @53

    Do you assume then it should have borders?
    What/how are these, what precepts do they have?

    Like I said in @37 is this expressed democracy? Where is the opposition due to a very apparent threat otherwise lurking 30 miles from the border?

    What do you think will happen if the true populous decide what will happen?

    Is this what you think democracy is? At gun point?

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    You seem to think ousting a President because of him refusing to sign a trade agreement with the EU is the very definition of democracy...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @57

    Try and see the big picture, Stevie. If you knew anything about self-determination, you would understand that it is not an absolute right, either practically or under international law. Legal title outweighs self-determination every time. The problem for both for Spain and Argentina is that they don't have legal title, or anything remotely resembling it, while both Gibraltar and the Falklands as NSGTs have an inalienable right to self-determination under the UN Charter and variosu other resolutions.

    The question of secession is a rather different, especially when a minority population is being used as a Trojan horse to dismember a sovereign state, by an aggressive external power with territorial ambitions. This doesn't mean that secession shouldn't happen, it means that it shouldn't happen at gunpoint. Over here in the Benighted States of Europe we've seen where that leads often enough, even if it does make you happy.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Of course it's not an absolute right!
    It's plain obvious it's an exclusive British right...

    What makes me laugh though, is that despite all the efforts of the intrusive and meddling western nations, all they achieved was the right to pay for the poorest part of Ukraine, as in the western part of the nation.
    No, Crimea, no Ukranian industry and no Venezuela...

    Pardon me, but it's hilarious!!

    :)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    No I assume to think that he went against the will of a voted in parliment, went el lobo , sided with a country which Ukraine strived for independence against. And then wondered why the general populace; restricted off basic goods et al were wondering why he had gold plated animals in his palace...

    A head of state premise is that, head of state, not the state itself, the parliament is the spokes body of the people.

    If he goes against the will of the parliament see @39

    He threw himself to the wolves. It was parliament that agreed this eu agreement.

    It has also been you that have said you vote and bide your time and get on with it.

    So it was the president which caused this conflict, therefore it was himself not parliament acting undemocratically as he went el lobo on this issue.

    I await your reply

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @61

    It's quite obviously not an exclusive British right, or we'd still have the Empire you get all so worked up about. Latam would still be Spanish, Algeria French, and so on and so forth. Try to keep up with your own arguments, for goodness sake.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    If the President had the mandate to make such decision, then it's all according to the rule of law.
    If not, his decision could (and should) have been overruled.

    Easy as that.

    But matters are even easier, as what you say couldn't be further away from reality.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

    But it almost sounded good...

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @64

    Did you read all of that link? Such as, for example :

    ”During his presidency, Mr Yanukovych steered Ukraine towards a closer relationship with the EU.

    ......

    Within hours of his departure, Ukrainians were able to see for themselves the opulence of his palatial retreat, surrounded by 140 hectares (345 acres) of grounds.

    The estate, complete with sauna and private zoo, is a stark contrast with the grinding poverty that afflicts many Ukrainians.”

    Does this remind you of anybody? I'm sure you wouldn't be happy to see any of them chased out of office either.

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @64
    It was overruled, he was thrown out by a vote in parliament......ergo the annexation....... Ergo the situation now..... Ergo him lamenting Crimea handed to Russia on a plate and not still with Ukraine.......

    Crikey.....

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Of course I did,but why do you pick and choose?

    “During his presidency, Mr Yanukovych steered Ukraine towards a closer relationship with the EU.

    But then, days before it was due to be signed, he rejected an association agreement in November 2013”

    The didn't oust him for having a zoo, Hans. I promise you, that was never the excuse, merely the justification.

    I remember, because it happened a few months ago...

    :)

    Apr 07th, 2014 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @67

    Who ousted him, again?

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Ukranian MP's, after weeks of pressure from various Groups, many of them fascist ones (Right Sector, Svoboda amongst them) and 88 people (protesters and police officers) dead by snipers, something the new “government” refused to investigate...

    Lets see what happens after a few weeks of protests in Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk...

    :)

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @69

    Some more deaths, probably. I'm sure you'll have a whale of a time.

    But as I said earlier, I'm pleased to see that you've come down so firmly in favour of self-determination, and against the notion of territorial integrity.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    Could you give me the link where you got that quote from? Wouldn't be Russian now would it?

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Sure Ekeko

    www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

    You getting old on me?

    70
    I'm glad you ran out of arguments...

    Free Donetsk? Free Kharkiv? Free Luhansk?

    ...

    No?

    ;)

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    Do you mean this?

    www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

    Posted by Stevie. It's a curious phenomenon around here, but members of the anglo-euro-phobic tendency are forever posting links which undermine their own argument.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Im quite sure your own sources would make it a headline, should there be any truth in your attempts to make anyone believe that Yankovich abused power in his decision not to sign the agreement with he EU.

    And I know you know it too.

    ;)

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    There is hardly anyone protesting in Ukraine for self-determination for Russians. One or two thousand is hardly a groundswell.

    As the Gibraltans are British. They are quite happy to be British. It is difficult for many to understand that you can only be British when you have another national identity.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Is that so, Anglolatino. Media around the world report on Donetsk proclaiming independence and a police force that has no intentions of intervening.

    They seem to have occupied the regional government Building.

    Quite an achievement for “one or two thousand people”, don't you think?

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    How many people Stevie?

    C'mon be honest and tell me how many people are involved in these protests? And what percentage of the population of the cities or regions do they represent.

    I agree it is being reported. I agree that buildings have been taken over. But so what?

    About 14% of Ukraine is ethnic Russian. That equates to about 7 million people give or take. Now add up all the protests in the last month that are pro-independence and what do you get?

    Not much!

    I am quite surprised how pro-self-determination you are. Would you care to comment on how much you support the recent Falkland Islander referendum?

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 01:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @69

    Nowhere in the BBC report it mentions fascist groups. Like I said sure it wasn't Russia today you got that one from?

    It does mention widespread corruption within his government and lavish lifestyle to boot with documents turning up by riverbanks.

    Also Has it occurred to you that the Ukrainian government have a little bit more on their plate (such as imminent Russian invasion) at the moment than to investigate this?

    Further more there is approx 100000 Russian troops 30 miles from the Eastern Ukrainian border. Do you think the Ukrainians are going to inflame that situation?

    Sounds like someone just wants war for wars sake.....a familiar theme in that warped mind of yours.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 06:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Anglolatino
    Donetsk is a city of 3 million people.
    I admit I didn't count the amount of protesters.
    If western media were as interested in reporting what is happening in Eastern Ukraine today as they were on the Western part, you would know a lot more than you do. But that's democracy for you, o your version of it.
    But rest assured that in a city of 3 million people, it takes more than 2000 to take over the governmental Buildings and declare independency...

    ;)

    Ekeko
    You slippery little fish!

    What quote were you talking about?

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government

    Be precise...

    :)

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 06:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    Actually Stevie I've been reading Russian media, especially RT.

    None of them have come up with very large figures either.

    Indeed this is what it boils down to: an unknown man has declared independence in a room full of other unknown men. And so far all they have taken over is a couple of buildings in Eastern Ukraine at... get this.... almost coordinated times.

    From all the photos and video footage I still can't see very many people. And remember these are the photos and videos from RUSSIAN media and not the west. Indeed, most videos just repeat the same scene. What is telling is that there are hardly any women in any of the pro-Russian groups or protests.

    As for the lack of police, that is deliberate. The Ukraine government is too smart to fall for that. That is the Georgian scenario. Indeed there has been no killings by the supposedly fascist government of Ukraine. For fascists they aren't doing a very good job. So restrained.

    I did watch a funny news article on RT.com where their 'expert' said that Right Sector activists were heading to Eastern Ukraine and were perhaps sent there by the government to get them away from the Kiev. Funnily enough this doesn't fit the current story that the Right a Sector are a dominant force in the Ukrainian government. So many conflicting facts.

    How many news organisations were invited in to witness this Declaration of Independence? And which country were they from?

    It is amazing how much you accuse others of ignoring facts when you do it so frequently.

    “But rest assured that in a city of 3 million people, it takes more than 2000 to take over the governmental Buildings and declare independency...”

    No it doesn't as current events in Ukraine have proved. But declaring something doesn't achieve it.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 08:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Monkeymagic

    Stevie

    Are you really really really thick????

    Seems like it.

    I certainly agree in principle to the idea you are thick, I have no control over if you are thick or not....that is between you and your (seemingly inbred) genetics.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 09:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anglotino

    Is it true that protesters invaded Karkhiv Theatre thinking it was City Hall?

    Rent-a-crowds are so unreliable these days!

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @79

    quote in regards to the facists?

    The documents found at the riverbank?

    Like I. Said it's not the protesters it's Russia massing troops waiting for a made up pretext for war...

    Bit hypocritical for you asking for precision?

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @83 I'm amazed at the way this “conversation” has gone. What has Ukraine to do with Gibraltar? Incidentally, the citizenship of Gibraltarians is quite easy to understand for those that want to. They are British Overseas Territory citizens. They have a right to be registered as British citizens if they wish. That right cannot be denied. It seems to me to be the essence of self-determination.

    I find it sad and unfortunate that Gibraltar seems to be prepared to give that up. I don't think that Britain is doing a very good job of protecting Gibraltarians at present. But if Gibraltar chooses greater integration to the EU it will be, as I said, Spanish in about 3 weeks. That is obvious because the greater number of people in mainland Britain want to be out of the EU. We've tried it for 40 years and we don't like it. I'm not talking about politicians and company bosses, I'm talking about ordinary people. There is nothing in it of any benefit to us. The proposed “independence” of scotland will make no essential difference. Scotland's 5 million are a “drop” compared to the UK's 63 million. Even if Wales and Northern Ireland decided to leave as well, the essential part of the UK, England, would still be here. All 53 million of us. That is, bye the bye, more than twice the population of Australia.

    Perhaps Gibraltar doesn't understand that Britain will no longer protect it. There would be no reason. And spain will do a Russia. There will be manufactured “dissent”. The Guardia Civil will cross the border to “maintain order”. The spanish military, who have long coveted Gibraltar, will be in in no time. Check history. See how spain “acquired” Catalonia.

    Incidentally, pay no attention to “Stevie”. He's an anarchist. He doesn't really believe in anything. International law says you don't break up territorial integrity. So you “manufacture” internal disaffection. That's what Russia has done. And spain is trying the same with its Cervantes Institute.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Britworker

    I can't understand how Stevie sleeps at night with his mind so confused about the principles of the world. Europe has been a mess for hundreds of years, wars, territories chopped and changed. Some things just don't have a simple answer. But in 2014, there are generally understood and upheld rules about how territories can change hands.
    Self-determination based on due process, fair and monitored elections free of violence and coercion are the only way you can do this. The Falkland Islands being a perfect example.
    Unlike Russia who had the process done in a week and a half at the other end of a Kalashnikov.

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ekeko

    @84

    Yes I wonder how this had gone the way it has. I've looked into the event horizon and ponder what happens within the vortex, now I know.

    I also know through years of experience that some like war for wars sake but thank you for the heads up.

    Ekeko

    Apr 08th, 2014 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    We all make mistakes, and Gibraltar will make the biggest and last ever mistake if she integrates herself with the unmighty EU,
    as some have said, without Britain, Spain will swallow them up before breakfast, and the EU will turn another great blind eye,
    any takers...??

    Apr 13th, 2014 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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