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Holdout hedge funds admit they prefer to negotiate with whoever succeeds Cristina Fernandez

Wednesday, April 30th 2014 - 03:49 UTC
Full article 33 comments

Elliot Management Hedge Fund claimed on Tuesday that President Cristina Fernández administration refuses to negotiate a solution over Argentine debt in default, stating that they would prefer to seek a solution with the head of state's successor in 2015. Read full article


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  • british bomber

    But these Wall St bankers refused to negotiate. That's why they are called 'hold outs'. That's why they plan to make a killing by robbing Main St.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 06:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    They didn't refuse to negotiate, they refused the pathetic 'offer' that the Argentine government dictated that they should accept.

    It is Argentina that refuses to negotiate. It's Argentina that is refusing to honour its debts.

    I'm sure that if Argentina actually tried to negotiate in good faith that these 'holdouts' would accept a reasonable compromise. But Argentina refuses to compromise and insists that they accept less than a 10th of the original debt as payment.

    If I loaned someone £1,000 in good faith and they only offered to repay me £90 back, I wouldn't think that was reasonable and I wouldn't accept it either. Especially when I could see the person who owed me money squandering it on all sorts of unnecessary items.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 08:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Klingon

    @2 How much did Singer actually pay for the bonds when he bought them off the original debtor? A mere pittance I am sure, but he is finding it harder than they envisioned to collect their full worth + interest so they can make a massive profit at the cost of a country with 40 million people defaulting.
    Kristina and Singer should get married, they deserve each other.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @1 LEPRecon has exactly made the point. Kirchner didn't make an “offer” that could be negotiated. It's a matter of historical record. He said that bondholders would accept the amounts he suggested or get nothing. For the numpty bondholders, it's worth bearing in mind that they may be able to show that what they “accepted” was by force majeure and therefore illegal. And then make argieland pay all that it REALLY owes.

    @3 What an idiot. How much Singer paid is irrelevant. That's a thieving arge argument. Buy what appears to be a junk car for £200, find that it's a sought-after classic, sell it for £20,000. Argies need to learn about reality. This isn't going away. The world knows about it now. No-one wants to lend argieland money. Except, perhaps, for China and Iran that intend to OWN argieland. And will the rest of the world care? Argieland deserves all that happens to it. And the world will probably make sure it's nothing good. Argies deserve to suffer. Argies allowed the junta. Argies elected the Kirchners. Argies deserve major punishment. A hundred years of grinding poverty for every argie. No “voice” anywhere in the world. Learn to suffer!

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 12:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Andy65

    Have said it once and will say it every time AREGENTINA.....................................ALWAYS HE VICTIM

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Optimus_Princeps

    Of course, would like to negotiate with a successor.

    Singer: “We insist on negotiating with someone that actually has a brain. Is that too much to ask?”

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext

    @3 Klingon

    NML paid $48.7 million for bonds originally worth $220 million. They, and other vulture funds have additionally spent quite a few millions on lobbying and legal fees. If Singer & Co. collect the return will be 1 380% on their original investment.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Don't buy lucrative Brady bonds if you want to secure your cash. Simple as that. Don't base your need for greed at the expense on others (hard, isn't it?) and you'll avoid all losses.
    And how come it not ok to offer 10% of the original value when repaying, but it's ok to buy defaulted bonds for 0.1% of the original value and try to cash in on the full amount?

    Brit logic again? Nah, the UK is against vulture fonds, aren't they?


    Apr 30th, 2014 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pugol-H

    And so the Saga continues, unto the 6th or 7th generation by the look of it.

    Argentina has also spent serious dollar fighting this, and they are at best going to have to pay something at the end of it.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    7. And what would you consider a “fair” profit to make on this enormous risk?
    8. A worthless statement from someone who's only ever made a paycheck.

    You both are silly fools and obviously know nothing about business or the way the capital markets function.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Klingon

    @10 Why didn't the original bond holders keep the bonds if they are guaranteed full payment.

    High risk means you may not get paid and to be honest it couldn't happen to anyone better than that weasel Singer.

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    The bonds crashed and the original owners wanted to sell to anyone they could.
    They are high risk yes and he took the chance and fronted the millions he's needed to collect through the courts.
    Argentina has lost all the way up. The comments from the SCOTUS review means they lost the 2nd to last battle.
    Singer will get paid.
    and he deserves every penny.
    My guess is the way it will roll out is, Arg will lose, Default, then ask the IMF for a loan and go into austerity and a very long depression.
    Just my guess tho

    Apr 30th, 2014 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Vestige

    Level - 10


    Apr 30th, 2014 - 11:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    13. That's funny because you think there are only 10 levels.
    Singer will get paid.
    It is just too bad the Ks had to drag 40MM people into poverty to while they are dragging out the payment.

    May 01st, 2014 - 01:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    But Argentina has been, and still is, negotiating. The next round is on May 28.

    It is Singer and his band of Wall street bankers that refuse. And it is Singer and his band of Wall St bankers that are willing to exercise the 0% option for the holders of 93% of the bonds. So, I say to the Wall St bankers, “We are the 93%!”

    May 01st, 2014 - 02:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CabezaDura2

    Ohh btw ChrisR

    BTW the gov't is in the downward hill slope of the Laffer's curve in real terms, the economy has been overtaxed..... Are they going to start lying and overstating tax colection at the levels of the new inflation they are admitting??

    May 01st, 2014 - 02:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Heisenbergcontext


    All I did was respond to a perfectly reasonable enquiry. If you doubt the accuracy of the provided figures by all means say so.

    Your patented gratuitous insult says more about you than me.

    May 01st, 2014 - 02:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0

    Suppose Mr. Singer wakes up in the morning and accepts.

    Argentina, aside from choking over the morning coffee, would do what then ?

    Stall, change the new agreed upon terms, and stall again, until CK sails out the door with her ill gotten gains, off to the Seychelles, or Nevada, USA, to sit in the sand, and count her ill-gotten money.( At least until a Truth Commission or Interpol catch up with her ).

    No you say ?

    Go back to the trade agreements of Mercosul/Mercosur. Argentina agrees to mutual beneficial terms with other members, and then places “import transfer taxes” on manufactured import goods, contrary to what she just agreed to. So it has happened before.

    When asked how those import taxes came about, there is no clear answer, just as Mr. Singer experiences. Only stalling, and the unknown speaking of tongues and gibberish evoked by her financial wizard, Mr. Axel “ Oracle ” Kicilliof, a graduate of the Delphi School of Economics, majoring in ethylene breathing and the reading of bones.

    You will note if you check Mr. Kicillof's C.V. that his main claim as Financial Minister for Argentina is that “ I wasn't there then, so I can't be held responsible, ”and that “ I don't wear a tie, as Mamá no longer lives with me. ”

    It is a very short CV, probably no larger than on-half of a page, so Mr. Singer is quite right to wait for Srs. Daniel Scioli, Sergio Massa, or Mauricio Macri to negotiate with.

    Our President Dilma and Mr. Singer have one experience in common. And that is being frustrated with the CK administration commitments, repeatedly, month after month, year after year.

    May 01st, 2014 - 06:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    “And how come it not ok to offer 10% of the original value when repaying, but it's ok to buy defaulted bonds for 0.1% of the original value and try to cash in on the full amount?”

    stevie is this a cultural stupidity thing or just you? I suspect just you. They can offer anything, the bondholder is not required to accept it. Read the contract......did Argentina? The reconciling factor standing between the two questions you pose is called......A CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION TO PAY DEBT BACK......unless you file and are protected by bankruptcy laws. There are non for countries.

    May 01st, 2014 - 12:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    19. You're not seriously asking Stevie to be logical are you?

    May 01st, 2014 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Singer loaned no money to Argentina, he bought defaulted bonds in order to mae profit from other people's misery.

    He'll wait until 2015 for another try.

    So will you.


    May 01st, 2014 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    You are too stupid to understand that Argentina did not borrow money from an individual but a market based bond and whomever owns the bond is the creditor or record. Except for the fascists (Kirchnerites) in Argentina, most of the population understand least the working class.

    If you were ever there you would have a feel for the sentiment. That is something you cannot get from the internet.

    johnathan......your stupidity is not are just fucking stupid.

    As for what Singer did is ethical or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that the practice is not illegal......PERIOD. If Argentina had concerns....they should have read the contract of WHOM is the “Creditor of Record”. The little simple steve, the the Bond Holder.

    May 01st, 2014 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    Singer did still not buy the bonds at the same terms those were issued.

    In your hatred for Argentina in particular and socialism in general, you'll defend Nazi's in Ukraine and vulture fonds like Singer's.

    And I'm fucking stupid...

    May 01st, 2014 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Stevie, You've have no idea about how the capital markets function.

    He absolutely bought the same rights as when the bond was issued.

    And that is the whole point of WHY he has won every court case against Argentina.
    and will continue to win

    Yes, you are f'ing stupid.

    May 01st, 2014 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Stevie

    I know exactly how it works. I canalizes the money of the masses into the pockets of the few. That I don't agree with it doesn't mean I don't understand it...

    He bought the same rights according to you. Argentina restructured those bonds according to the very same laws that applies on Singer's buy.
    Remove the possibility of restructuring, and see for yourself how your sytstem works.
    Glad not to hae to listen to that criminal, read Singer, for at least until 2015...


    May 01st, 2014 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Except Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty throughout history than anything else.

    I don't know why with all the PROVEN data that Marxism, Soicilism, Communism or whatever you want ot call it, has SHOWN TO BE UTTER FAILURES and making the majority of the people under its rule poorer you can still think that somehow someway if we tweak it here and there it will work. It won't because it can't.

    BTW The bonds were only restructured and under new terms if the bondholder agreed and accepted a new bond. That didn't happen how did it.

    You are a blockhead.

    May 01st, 2014 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 16 CabezaDura2

    Your guess is probably better than mine as you are closer to it, but it seems to me that you can always rely of the K's to do ONLY what enhances theitr wealth and stuff the rest.

    So yes, I think that's a distinct posibility.

    May 01st, 2014 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    “And I'm fucking stupid...”

    I am happy finally admit to your stupidity. Posts like 23 show just how ignorant or stupid you really are.

    1-Find my post that I hate Argentina? I DO NOT travel to places I hate

    2- and My post in the Ukraine?

    Why do you make unsubstantiated statements on a consistent basis? Oh bad, because your are stupid....or was it ignorant?

    “He bought the same rights according to you. Argentina restructured those bonds according to the very same laws that applies on Singer's buy.”

    What specific laws requires a bondholder to HAVE to accept a restructuring? New York law specifically and International law in general?

    Also while I am at it, in 23, what am I waiting for in 2015?

    Do you know that your IQ would double just by you stopping your ignorant assumptions? Really! Based on Marks and Levine you could move up to an imbecile from an idiot.

    BTW.....since when do Bond terms change when they, as market instruments, change hands......since when?

    May 01st, 2014 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Pugol-H

    @23 Stevie
    “Nazi's in Ukraine”.

    Ummm that is quite a statement, and I suggest, strongly, that you don’t say it in ear shot of ANY East Europeans.

    And you of course support Crimea’s right to self-determination over territorial integrity????

    As far as Singer is concerned, I actually think Arg is morally right, problem is the Vulture funds, which they are, legally speaking have a case.

    This was a case of picking your battles, you don’t get to be very rich from junk bonds, without knowing something about what you’re doing.

    Which is more than can be said of CFK & Co.

    May 01st, 2014 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    If there was no other reason to support re-re-election this is it; failing that, Argentina really should elect another Cristinista President or risk being shafted by the vultures' favoured candidates, ie all current contenders...

    May 07th, 2014 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Holdout.from.Germany

    President Kirchner (by the way, what a beautiful woman) should show goodwill and offer an ACCEPTABLE solution for the holdouts, so she could be dealt in the history books as the solver of the decade old default.

    Argentina should be reconciled with the holdouts, NOW!

    Reconciliation would improve Argentina's ratings, initiate a firework of investments and would enable also cheaper credits for argentine companies.

    Each state in the world refinances its debt on the capital markets without using reserves. A return Argentina's to the the capital markets would be welcome.

    BUT before reentering the world, Argentina must end this NIGHTMARE, this since 2002 ongoing HORROR-Default with the Holdouts!

    Following simple conditions might be acceptable for the Holdouts on the basis of the old bonds.(Without swapping from old to new bonds, also because of tax reason)

    Argentina (or investment banks, funds) make a buyback offer of about 130-140% for the holdouts ( for owned capital+ accrued interest between 2002-2015).

    (Argentina owns until now about 230%, a cash buyback of 130-140% would so mean for Argentina already a debt relief of about 100%)

    May 07th, 2014 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 31 Holdout.from.Germany

    Well for me you have just blown it with the (by the way, what a beautiful woman) comment.

    No money for you then!

    May 07th, 2014 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    #31 ”President Kirchner (by the way, what a beautiful woman)”

    Well, we may agree on little else, but at least you have taste =) You'll find some on this site don't...

    May 07th, 2014 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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