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The 1978 'nominal' co-sovereignty secret project for Gibraltar, with UK, EEC and Spain's guarantee
A form of “nominal” co-sovereignty to be guaranteed UK, Spain and the EEC was proposed by Gibraltar Chief Minister, the late Sir Joshua Hassan, in January 1978, according to papers newly-released to The National Archives. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThe world is a different place from 1978.
May 24th, 2014 - 08:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0All Spain has really done in those 36 years is to further alienate the Gibraltans and give them even LESS incentive to become part of Spain.
Indeed, Spain may have permanently destroyed any hope of any future that doesn't end in Gibraltar's independence.
The most important thing is that Gibraltar will NEVER be spanish. Way back, spain stole Catalonia (Catalunya). Who thinks Gibraltarians aren't watching the events in Catalonia? Little spain has no knowledge of history. Who “stopped” spain wherever it chose? Spain hardly dared sail the seas. Although it was good of it to dig silver and gold out of the ground and transport it so that Britain could take it. And, over 300 years, the inhabitants of Gibraltar have learned to be “British”. And that means they don't take threats and “pressure” well. Of late I've noticed moves by Gibraltar's government to make it easier for Moroccans to reside and work in Gibraltar. And soon comes the day when spaniards aren't needed. The frontier is closed to spanish nationals. The Gibraltar government arranges flights and hi-speed ferries to access Gibraltar without entering spain. Will it be a flight/ferry from France to Morocco first? Or direct from France? I expect that Britain and Gibraltar, who have always respected Morocco, can look for co-operation to avoid medieval spain, that doesn't respect Morocco at all!
May 24th, 2014 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This was only 3 years after the end of Franco's fascist rule!
May 24th, 2014 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some 'pinko' was wishful-thinking. Callaghan was still PM - just!
Spain’s border clampdown ‘leads nowhere’ – Chavez
May 24th, 2014 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0we are going back to Castiella policies
? only serves to push the Gibraltarians away.”
Because at the end of the day, that has to be decided by the Gibraltarians themselves.”
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=34041
..
I think it is counter-productive to look to the past for a current answer to this issue. There is absolutely nothing that the UK can arbitrarily do in Gibraltar or the Falklands for that matter without the expressed consent of the people that live in these places. Why is that so hard for people to understand, how the hell can Spain expect in a modern EU for the UK to hand Gibraltar's sovereignty over without their consent, it is a ridiculous concept.
May 24th, 2014 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is interesting that countries who do not believe in or support self-determination are poor, corrupt and uncompetitive in stark contrast to countries like the UK, the fastest growing and most competitive economy in the western world and now the second largest economy in the EU after Germany.
@ 5 Britworker
May 24th, 2014 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“stark contrast to countries like the UK, the fastest growing and most competitive economy in the western world and now the second largest economy in the EU after Germany.”
I would REALLY like to see the hard facts to support that claim because ALL my friends and relatives in the UK would most certainly NOT agree with it.
But back to Gibraltar. The Spanish will never learn without having their ears “boxed” to wake them up to reality: what form it should take I have no preference for but it does need action, not claptrap!
I agree that once the labour needs of Gib are ensured without the Spanish then the border should be closed to put the Garda out of a job. It can always be opened when a more sensible government takes over, should one ever be found.
Spain really is getting like The Dark Country for every day that passes. The only difference is that the UK taxpayers (inc me) are bailing them out, the ungrateful bastards.
Hello everyone,
May 24th, 2014 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry to bore you all yet again, but as a former professional soldier, I’m fascinated by Military History and as some of you are poorly informed and decidedly too trigger-happy, perchance this will be of cautionary interest:
Re: Lord Douro,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wellesley%2C_Marquess_of_Douro#Politics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wellesley%2C_Marquess_of_Douro#Politics
Somebody once told me that even the bitterest disputes may occasionally display a hint of subtle satire. And –to this ol’ incorrigible reprobate at least– it does seem IRONIC that successive Douro scions are STILL dining-out on the exploits of their lovingly lamented, long-late, great-granddaddy, the splendid, IRON DUKE! In fact, the good Douro family do more than simply dine-out on the First Lord Wellington’s exploits during The Peninsular War and ultimately, at Waterloo.
In gratitude for his victories over Napoleon, the cruel, cunning Anglo-Irish martinet Wellesley was raised to the nobility by Belgian, British, Portuguese and Spanish monarchs and given property and privilege in their respective realms. Such international preference has ensured an easy life for a long line of succeeding Wellesley ‘sprogs’, enabling them to ‘live the dream’ in exchange for minimal personal sacrifice or effort to this very day and presumably, to be able to continue to do so well into the future.
It’s a pity that neither British nor Spanish school kids are taught how Wellington treated his men –to whom he alluded as the ‘scum of the earth”. Under HIS command a British soldier found guilty of a minor disciplinary misdemeanour might find himself tied to a post or tree and flogged to within an inch of his life (in fact, some of those so punished really did die) This practice ensured that Wellington’s men were less afraid of the enemy than of their own officers –no wonder the British foot soldiers so bravely ‘stood their squares’ against France’s formidable cavalry, which had
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May 25th, 2014 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0THE DUKE OF DUORO PART 2.
May 25th, 2014 - 01:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hello everyone,
It’s a pity that neither British nor Spanish school kids are taught how Wellington treated his men –to whom he alluded as the ‘scum of the earth”. Under HIS command a British soldier found guilty of a minor disciplinary misdemeanour might find himself tied to a post or tree and flogged to within an inch of his life (in fact, some of those so punished really did die) This practice ensured that Wellington’s men were less afraid of the enemy than of their own officers –no wonder the British foot soldiers so bravely ‘stood their squares’ against France’s formidable cavalry, which had routed most of its previous European enemies, cutting through them as a knife through butter.
Almost nobody knows of the Anglo-Dutch-Spanish retreat from Salamanca to Corunna under Gen. Sir John Moore, who was killed at the battle of the latter city and subsequently buried at night by veiled lantern light, so as to evade the attentions of French artillery emplaced on nearby high ground.
Although Moore’s column had to traverse snow-clad mountainous terrain, the British troops had only ‘walking-out’ boots made from cardboard, which promptly disintegrated and their Spanish rank and file comrades were barefoot. However, the officers of Moore’s force were horse mounted and clad in knee length ‘Wellingtons’ of the finest leather.
Of course, those ORDINARY soldiers who lost their lives during Wellington’s campaigns were simply buried where they fell and those men who were maimed would –if lucky– be sent home at public expense, where habitually, the army would kick them out and abandon them to indigence vagrancy. Although these poor fellows were the REAL heroes and victors of our Empire-accruing wars, not for them, the unwarranted laurels and superfluous riches of their upper-class leaders!!!.
Nonetheless, Moore –the withdrawal of who’s army from Corunna is frequently cited by erudite historians as a prototypical ‘Dunkirk Operation’– is an unsung yet
“A form of “nominal” co-sovereignty to be guaranteed UK, Spain and the EEC was proposed by Gibraltar Chief Minister, the late Sir Joshua Hassan, in January 1978, according to papers newly-released to The National Archives.”
May 25th, 2014 - 05:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0This is old news.
MercoPress is just re-hashing it as a form of 'clickbait'.
This means that some suckers can't resist 'clicking' on it. Like me (!)
Thus their advertising revenue goes up. The more 'clicks' they get, the more they can charge the advertisers.
Cynically yours,
Ilsen Operosus
THE DUKE OF DUORO PART 3 of 3.
May 25th, 2014 - 08:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hello everyone,
Nonetheless, Moore –the withdrawal of who’s army from Corunna is frequently cited by erudite historians as a prototypical ‘Dunkirk Operation’– is an unsung yet significant British soldier. Details of his career may be had at Sites such as:
http://www.nam.ac.uk/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/britains-greatest-general/john-moore
http://www.nam.ac.uk/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/britains-greatest-general/john-moore
Those who may be interested in The Battle of Trafalgar from a Spaniard’s perspective might like to read the English translation of Benito Pérez Galdos’ ‘EPISODIOS NACIONALES, TRAFALGAR’. From my own experience of both war and Spaniards, I assure you that this fascinating work of fiction –extent of any pretension to jingoist triumphalism– RINGS UNCANNILY TRUE TO REAL LIFE. For more information see places such as:
http://www.nam.ac.uk/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/britains-greatest-general/john-moore
MORAL: NEVER TRUST POLITICIANS NOR BELIEVE YOUR OWN CHAUVINISTIC CRAP –MOST SUCH. FLAG-WAVING NATIONALISTIC RHETORIC IS PURE PROPAGANDISTIC FANTASY, WHETHER IT’S PROMULGATED IN BRITAIN, SPAIN OR THE PEOPLE’S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF FRIGGIN’ DISNEYLAND!
Jim, in Madrid.
@ 11 JimHandley
May 25th, 2014 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Whilst I can admire your personal efforts on behalf of the UN, your final paragraph would result in the Falklands now being a province of The Dark Country.
Nobody with half-a-brain wants that.
@7, 9, 11. Bored. A “former professional soldier” eh? “Corps of Army Music”?
May 25th, 2014 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is true that Wellington, at one point, referred to his troops as the “scum of the earth”. But that was when, at the Battle of Vitoria, British troops broke ranks to loot the abandoned French wagons instead of pursuing the beaten foe. An action that could, in this day and age, see the troops shot. But then he later said “it is really wonderful that we should have made them to the fine fellows they are”. And, whereas the French relied on plundering and stealing for food and other supplies, the British took theirs with them and, where food had to be obtained from the local area, it was paid for.
I wonder at your pansy aversion to flogging. Regularly used in the Royal Navy. Worth remembering that the vast mass of British soldiers and sailors were one step removed from illiterate yokels. Couldn't read the regulations or the orders of the day. And the “attraction” of joining the forces? A shilling. But then life was cheap.
Sir John Moore's retreat is remembered by some. But, like Wellington, Moore stayed with his men. Being mounted, as some officers had to be in order to see a greater distance, both Sir John and Sir Arthur could have dashed away to safety. And while we're on the subject of burials of the fallen, it's worth remembering that whilst the British made every effort to bury their dead with dignity and respect when possible, the French were so considerate that, in their Navy, the dead would be buried in the ship's own sand ballast.
It's, frankly, horrible to see a supposed Brit, who has abandoned its country to reside in a third-world enemy country, slagging off the best armed forces in the world. Man for man, sailor for sailor, pilot for pilot, Brit forces can beat anyone. And it's down to ability, discipline, training and guts!
For 13 Conqueror.
May 25th, 2014 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re: “Corps of Army Music? It is true that Wellington, at one point, referred to his troops as the “scum of the earth”. But that was when, at the Battle of Vitoria” et cetera.
First: The post military Wellington became an archetypical, really radical rightwing Tory politician who firmly believed in the maintenance at all cost, of the Establishment’s hierarchical preference and privilege
Second: Here you go again, demanding that I must tell you in which Corps I served, whilst hiding behind the incognito of your idiotic pseudonym. All I shall condescend to participate with you now is, –that a as boy soldier of 14 to 18 years’ of age– my military misdemeanours were routinely chastised by caning across the backside by a Six Feet Four, 18 stones, Guards’ Sgt Major –under the supervision of the Medical Officer, of course!
I try NOT to opine on matters of which I have no knowledge, preferring to defer to those who DO. Such is the case regarding your affirmation of the events at the Battle of Vitoria. I frankly don’t know if you’re right or not. Neither can I be bothered to check, but I DO wonder if you’re mistaken about Vitoria for I already know that British troops behaved abominably after the earlier Battle of Badajoz on the Hispano-Lusitanian frontier –even raping Nuns, if some reports are to be credited.
Re “It's, frankly, horrible to see a supposed Brit, who has abandoned its country to reside in a third-world enemy country, slagging off the best armed forces in the world. Man for man, sailor for sailor, pilot for pilot, Brit forces can beat anyone. And it's down to ability, discipline, training and guts!”.
I’ve certainly not abandoned my country –during Franco’s time, I came here to Spain, to help represent British export interests and eventually, I married a Spaniard.
British service people are pretty good when well led –I know for I too was a frontline soldier during a bitterly fought armed conflict– but unfortunately, our wartime leaders (
Please continue.
May 26th, 2014 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0For 13 Conqueror.
May 26th, 2014 - 06:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0FINAL PART –(¡POR FIN!)
I’ve certainly not abandoned my country –during Franco’s time, I came here to Spain, to help represent British export interests and eventually, I married a Spaniard.
British service people are pretty good when well led –I know for I too was a frontline soldier during a bitterly fought armed conflict– but unfortunately, our wartime leaders (especially political) are seldom fit for the daunting demands of the task. Furthermore, I assure you as a former minor commander myself, that the first and golden rule of Tactics is to gather the FACTS. The quickest and surest path to defeat is to base one’s battle plans upon wishful thinking of the romanticized, pro-nationalistic genre you express in your reply to my message!
Incidentally, I note you say NOTHING regarding Gen. Sir John Moore. I reckon that he –a true soldiers’ soldier who genuinely sought his rank and file’s best interests and a remarkably innovative military modernizer, too– was a much finer fellow than Wellington and that, –had he prevailed at, or escaped from, Corunna– Moore would have probably become the more celebrated man of the two.
Jim, in Madrid.
@11 JimHandley
May 26th, 2014 - 10:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Besides Badajoz and the killings of its inhabitants by the British soldiers, please don't forget the rape and destruction of San Sebastian by those soldiers.
http://thewildpeak.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/the-british-rape-and-destruction-of-san-sebastian/
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