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“The muddled case of Argentine bonds”, as seen by New York Times

Friday, July 25th 2014 - 05:22 UTC
Full article 27 comments

The following piece was written by Floyd Norris, financial analyst from The New York Times and refers to the complicated process that has emerged from the ongoing battle between Argentina and the holdouts demanding full payment of sovereign bonds, plus accrued interests. Read full article

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  • The Voice

    A brief synopsis of the article is....
    ..apparently this judge hasn't got a clue what he is doing and hasn't for the last 12 years...
    to make an informed judgement...one really should be informed...
    ...scary

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 06:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    He appears to have interpreted the Law and it's intent correctly, and is applying it appropriately.
    However, the difficulty is the possible conflicts of jurisdiction - quite a challenge to make it can be enforced in good conscience.
    Not an easy case.

    This article reeks of ageism - certainly in 42 years, this Judge has acquired a great deal of experience and seen many precedents.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 08:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    Don't lawyers like to make simple things complex? Which jurisdiction were the bonds issued under? Where has argieland illegally deposited the money? Who was jurisdiction. Case closed. Pay up, argieland!

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 09:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • hurricane

    The NYT is the perfect forum for Arg. They always blame everything on the Capitalist or Bush. Liberals and Argentines are synonymous. The NYT is becoming more like CNN every day. The network that no one watches.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 10:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    This judge is an idiot. An English judge is going to set him straight real soon. The English bonds have nothing to do with America.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • downunder

    “................................Argentina vowed that those investors who refused would never receive a dime.”.

    That paragraph says everything, the legal argie bargie notwithstanding, Argentina treated its creditors with contempt, forcing them to suffer huge lossess on their investments and refusing outright to pay those who held out and wanted full payment. Who do these awfull people think they are?

    I bet they don't treat the Chinese in such a high handed fashion the next time they default on their loans.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    This is a very poor article indeed and it is easy to see why the writer is working in academia instead of alongside the likes of Griesa in the real world. I bet she has never had to deal with the real world since leaving Law School.

    Also she appears to have missed the point that it was The Dark Country who placed their bonds into the hands of the US court (because, being a scofflaw, they could not sell them otherwise) and it is contract law pure and simple.

    Hindsight is a marvellous thing and this writer is all about hindsight. Pathetic.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Griesa was forced to take extreme measures and include the paying agents because Arg said they wouldn't honor the ruling if it went against them.
    They clearly didn't honor the ruling by sending the last payment.
    When you are dealing with dishonorable people you must craft the deal ( or ruling) accordingly.
    This is why Argentina will always get poorer and dumber year after year.
    Int'l companies (and Arg companies) must make as much as possible as quickly as possible and get it out of the country as soon as possible. The Pols are nutty, corrupt and full of avarice. That's why they are in a 10 year cycle of boom and bust that they will never escape from.

    If they get into hyperinflation I don't see one Intl mfg staying in the country. Not one.
    Then what?

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Anbar

    “Its the end of the world as we know it...”

    I agree with The Voice....

    /me faints

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 12:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Mr Ed

    The article seems to be saying that the learned Judge is not smart enough to understand that debtors should not pay their debts if they are sovereign governments.

    So what if third parties are caught up in the proceedings? They presumably could have filed briefs as interested parties. It is not the judge who has a lot to think about, it is the Argentinian government.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    Voice, The ruling was reviewed all the way up to SCOTUS who declined to change it.
    Obviously the best legal minds in the most respected court system in the world has studied this ruling and found it to be in compliance with the laws of NY state.
    Griesa knows what he is doing much more that the lithium soaked Prez of Argentina and her equally retarded minions.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 12:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    11
    Don't shoot the messenger....
    I only commented on the article...
    ...which, of the face of it, appeared to be the gist of it.

    “It is not as if no one had pointed out the issues in the many legal briefs and arguments filed in this case, both before Judge Griesa and before appeals courts. But those arguments seem not to have registered.”

    ...that would be, “the best legal minds in the most respected court system in the world”...that you are referring to...

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • yankeeboy

    12. But she has the gall to say it “registered” with her? She's a nobody.
    My guess this was a paid article.
    NYT is not the paper it used to be by any stretch of the imagination.
    I wouldn't be surprised if it went out of business in the very near future.

    The ruling was reviewed up to SCOTUS. So yeah the best legal minds in the most respected court system in the world.
    I stand by that.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    So the VULTURE FUND try convince make American judge to force the law of dozens of other countries to become vassal of NEw York law?

    Thank you this prove the megalomania of USA person, and the wicked of vulture fund, who realize Griesa only could say enforce on New York issue bond, and want now US law apply to entire world.

    I thought vulture fund 'respect' other country. Proof they not.

    Vulture fund and USA not care not respect anyone. worsest people on world. China own their money now, only way to keep these immoral on check.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • reality check

    The vultures are circling and they are going to pick Argentinas bones clean!

    Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle!

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    HEre at 15 the typical dishonorable English person. Accusing argentina of try change court order after sentence. Argentina bad, evil.

    Now here catch red-handed vulture fund try change court order after sentence, Englsh person reality check say nothing avoid issue like coward.

    Yesterday England insult France sell weapon Russia, 5 minute later after insult England sell weapon Russia.

    This is typical dishonorable behavior when confront them with it, they shirk.

    No honer.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • reality check

    No honour?

    An Argentine officer gives evidence of how an SAS officer fought to his death.

    A Royal Navy fighter pilot gives evidence of how a courageous pilot stayed with his aircraft until the very last moment.

    Argentines bury a dead British fighter pilot with full military honours.

    British officers acknowledge the courage of Argentine soldiers holding their positions to their death.

    Wounded men treated by degree of their injury not their nationality.

    What the fuck do you know about honour????????

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Alistair Nigel (EUian)

    See you not smart, no compartmentalizationalizing ability.

    Honer of saying what meant in negotiation not war. You can be courage in war, coward in peace.

    And viceversa.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ 17 reality check

    Don't lose your rag over the imbecile, he's not worth it.

    Those with intellect, honesty and strength of character of whatever nation know the truth, the imbecile has none of these qualities.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • El Polaco

    Isn't this case full of surprises? When I first read this article, I thought this would be Griesa's way out, his rationale for granting a stay. I doubt it, however, as from the beginning, this judge has steadfastly ignored all the other complications in the case so I doubt he will get cold feet now. I hope I'm wrong about that.

    The questions about how the bonds should be treated in the Feb 23 order, may not influence Griesa, but they will certainly come into play if a default should occur next week. If there is a default, Argentina will not fall off the edge of a cliff as so many here would like. Rather it will be more like entering a swamp of new suits and legal arguments about who has the right to collect what from whom and when. It will probably take as many years to get out of that swamp as it has taken to get into it.

    Judge Griesa could give everyone a break by granting a stay until January when all parties can get together and finally put this mess to rest.

    By the way, I'd like to say this is a nice piece by Floyd Norris. Given that it has implied some serious criticism of the US legal system, it must have been difficult to get this one past his editors at the NYT. Good job, Floyd.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • reality check

    Tittyboy.

    Your such a fucking idiot, didn't anyone tell you that war is is the result of a failure of politics!!!!! That all politicians lie and there is no honour amongst politicians.

    Politicians are only in office for one ting only, themselves! If they were any good at anything else they would not be politicians!

    You need to stop Concerntrating on languages and study other subjects, because you are woefully naive about the realities of life.

    Let me educate you. Politicians are in politics for one reason only, themselves.

    If they were any good at anything else, they would not be in politics.

    Why do you think so many of the cunts are failed lawyers?????

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @5. You're a funny little girl, aren't you? How much time do you spend every day wading through stuff to try to cheer granny up? Why don't you give her the money yourself, you cheapskate. But let's deal with this sensibly. Judges in the important parts of the UK are properly known as British judges. Of course, there are some argies that can't “Think” that far. Even some scotch judges are referred to as being British. Now, argieland deposits money in the Bank of New York Mellon. British judge has no jurisdiction. Even if the judge wrote and asked “pretty please” who is the Bank going to obey? The “trustee” is the Bank of New York Mellon. Not branches or subsidiaries. Go on, be a sport. Pay granny! You'll get it back, maybe, if argieland quits pissing about.
    @14,16,18. You poor child. What's a EUian? I seem to recall that phraseology being used by a retarded argie with less “ability” than a brain-dead turd. Do turds have brains? No. But they do stink. And they are stupid. Much like argies. Nothing else really. Argie turd is much like a murdering, russian-speaking, terrorist in the Ukraine. Or a murdering, terrorist, so-called “palestinian” in Gaza. All very similar. “Look I'm firing rockets at the people who gave me the land I'm living on even though it's been theirs for at least 3,200 years and I want to wipe them out”. AND “Look at me. I didn't believe in the democratic process and decided to shoot down a civilian airliner belonging to another country and loot it, because I want to be russian”. So piss off over the border and be russian. “Look at me. I'm a thick, childish, schizophrenic argie turd”. In a new departure for the world, argie turds are to be shot on sight. There's no particular order. “Argieland is honorable” is the only reason you need.
    @20. And look, here's another one. ”Attention, aim, wait for it, (wait until it opens its dumb mouth again).........!

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    @11
    But it is against the law of England. That is what is important. An English judge will fix this up.

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    23 Hepatia from Argentina

    “ An English judge will fix this up.”

    The “ English” have no jurisdiction.

    The UK laws are not applied retroactively.

    You're dreaming, you half-wit

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    True...lol

    Jul 25th, 2014 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • british bomber

    at 24
    Don't know hepatia. We are British. Never been to Argentina.

    So English law not in England. You yanks want Yankee law in England. Never happen. We are not your colony. We do not bow down to your wall st bankers. You ate very stupid. We English have justice. We are the 93%.

    Jul 26th, 2014 - 02:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Troy Tempest

    26 Hepatia

    your English sucks

    Jul 26th, 2014 - 03:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0

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