As Argentina approached the deadline for another default, second in twelve years, the governments of President Cristina Fernandez is trashing a U.S. judge rather than repay creditors, underlines an editorial column from The Wall Street Journal. Read full article
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Take note, Kretina! You can't hide behind your indignation any longer!Jul 29th, 2014 - 06:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
What I find truly sad is that for all the people wanting Argentina to default it is going to have adverse affects on the ordinary people living in Argentina. I'm not defending the Argentine government because I cannot. Its sad really. The government has let its own people down. I wonder how many Argentine citizens realise this?Jul 29th, 2014 - 08:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0
2 BSJul 29th, 2014 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I agree with you to a point and then I remind of myself how delirious with joy the government and people of Argentina would be if they were somehow successful in ousting the truly resilient and good people of the Falkland Islands from their ancestral home of almost 200 years. Then the sympathy recedes a tad.
@2 I think you will find a lot of posters on here that campaign against the Argentine government have great sympathy for the average Argentine. Sure there is the great brainwashed and idiotic element that would rather be paid to cheer for CFK than work. I have met some of these numbskulls and I have not an ounce of pity for them. But I also have some great friends in Argentina that don't deserve this. They want nothing more than a stable society and to be able to work and save for a better future.Jul 29th, 2014 - 09:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Why don't they do something about it? You have to understand the lack of information available to them. The CFK propaganda machine combined with the La Campora influence in schools is North Korea light. Buenoa Aires is rife with rumour and little hard fact. It suits the K's for it to be that way.
Well put @4Jul 29th, 2014 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0
@3 and 4Jul 29th, 2014 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I agree completely about the Falklands issue and I believe that has to do with much of what Elaine explained and wrote. I was just trying to highlight there are ordinary people out there that are going to suffer due to the idiotic actions of their government and that some people seem to relish the thought.
Comment removed by the editor.Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0
I am with Elaine here, but I also see Yankees POV. How on earth ordinary Argentinians are ever going to be able to resolve this is hard to see. What is needed is an inspirational leader to emerge and to persuade everyone to follow a different course. Unfortunately there are too many arch Peronists about supported by glazed eyed idiots like Think and Axel who really should know better. One only has to look at Korea, Zimbabwe and North Korea to see where its leading. Will Scotland be next?Jul 29th, 2014 - 10:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
@4. You have some great friends in argieland. So are you trying to steer a middle course? Let's start with my classifications. There's the argie government who are all crooks and criminal to one degree or another. Then there's those I refer to as Argentines. Honest, reasonable, law-abiding, intelligent and moral. We'll assume your friends are Argentines. Then there's argies. The complete opposite. Many appear here under various pseudonyms.Jul 29th, 2014 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
You mention lack of information. Aren't you a source of information? Correction has to start somewhere. So give your friends information. Pick the brave ones. The ones that will repeat what you tell them to others.
I think you were the first to mention the psychological aspect. Viveza criolla. So I'm with yankeeboy. As long as those ordinary people continue to get by, there is no incentive to change things. Let them starve and freeze, let them watch as their country's assets are taken away, let them lose their jobs and all sources of income. Let all the shops be empty. And people should be afraid to go out on the streets in case they are attacked for anything they have. Anarchy.
Of course, there are other things that could happen. Perhaps argieland should be forced to accept its responsibility for ignoring Security Council resolution 502. Perhaps the ICJ could consider the Falkland Islands Question and announce that, as a result of Britain's victory in 1982, the Islands ARE British.
And perhaps the best possibility. Let them watch their leaders and associates being publicly led away to start 12 months in prison whilst awaiting trial!
My next door neighbours are Argentine and great people as are some others I have met and it will be hard on them, however for the rest I will be pleased to see these arseholes walking round begging for scraps until somebody bangs their heads together to ditch the cancer that is Peronism.Jul 29th, 2014 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0
These cretins have done, and continue to do, great damage to Uruguay just because they can.
They will reap the whirlwind and serve them right.
The heaving masses in Argentina arent very bright. Most havent been out of tbe country like the trolls that appear here. When they do, even going to somewhere as poor as Brazil they are only too pleased to vote with their feet like so many have done after the world cup. I am expecting to see a mass exodus when the brown stuff hits the fan, pot banging and lynch mobs too.Jul 29th, 2014 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Argentina as a whole needs a severe reality check - but I'm not sure another default and its consequences will be enough.Jul 29th, 2014 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
It's hard to understand why they prefer to remember the era of poverty and tyranny of Peron rather than just a few decades earlier when they were one of the richest nations on earth. The golden era of Argentina seems to have been forgotten by Argentines in favour of some nationalist flag waving claptrap.
That's the other thing I don't understand. Argentina's love of Peron? Some of my posts (I rarely post but always read others) may seem naive. I have a good understanding of many things but politics is not one of them. I do find in interesting though.Jul 29th, 2014 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
13. Brainwashing/Indoctrination from an early age and lack of travel to the outside world.Jul 29th, 2014 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Same way North Korea's leadership makes the population believe the rest of the world lives with out electricity at night and is starving.
What makes you think the majority of Argentinians are any different than the majority of North Koreans?
@ 1 and @ 4Jul 29th, 2014 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
As for the peronist sickness ... I don´t get it neither and I live here, so don´t worry if it´s hard to grasp. The endless love for that fascists SOB and his full-of-hate wife `evita´ remains as a mystery for me. As some people say here, the day the peronist party is gone, this country will have a future ...
Juan and Eva Peron were perceived as contemporary Robin Hoods for the low economic sectors in Argentina. They took from the aristocratic rich and redistributed to the poor. A strong union movement was a corollary. This was the essence of Peronism.Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
As long as the federal coffers, bloated by income derived during WWII, were able to underwrite the subsidies of goods and service provided to the poor, the people were happy. When the government ran out of money and could no longer maintain its largesse, coupled with sainted Eva's untimely passing, Peronism's rose lost its bloom and Peron got out of town.
As a part time observer of social currents for the past few decades, it seems to me that the poor, lower and working classes including much of the middle class still suffer residual delusions from the momentum of Peronism policy. They expect government to actively redistribute wealth. The unions still wield significant power.
Unfortunately, the country doesn't have sufficient wealth to provide the necessary entitlements to provide a good standard of living to many of its people. Education and health delivery systems are deteriorating. Soon the pensioners will start to suffer as their payments fail to keep up with inflation. Price freezes on grocery supplies backfire as shelves empty. The infrastructure is such that blackouts are a common event during summer. Police and all kinds of govt officers become more corrupt as a way of augmenting their low salaries. And why not? They have see their big shot politicians like Boudou, Mennem, Nestor K. et al get rich by ripping off the public so they understandably feel there's no wrong in getting their beaks wet, too.
Not a rosy future do I see.
13. This is what they are teaching the Argentinian public schools:Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
and why they think the way they do
A good discussion and to address a few points aimed my way…..Jul 29th, 2014 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I do provide information from outside Argentina. I try very hard to give balanced information and I mentioned recently that certain friends were asking me what they should do if the country defaults again. But surprisingly, and even though they have been telling me about the rampant inflation and increasing crime, they still don't realise the full extent of the mess the country is in. As one told me at the weekend, it is really hard to get good information as there are so many rumours and theories being bandied about.
Peronism was defined on here as an ideal rather than the worship of Juan Peron or a political stance. I can't remember who said it here but it makes a lot of sense if you look at it that way. CFK is ridiculously obsessed with Evita and models herself on her but most politicians claim to be peronist. I think we can all agree Peronism is a cancer in Argentine society and unless it is finally expunged Argentina will never be healthy and flourish.
There may be some merit in the idea that if the Argentine people suffer enough they will finally turn in another direction. I am not so sure. People are inculcated from a young age to believe in Peronism and it will take a huge cultural shift to affect real change.
I think it is true that it will take one bold, altruistic, charismatic orator to galvanise people to want to change. The danger in that is, you take out 'altruistic' and the description would fit Castro or Chavez.
Altruistic is probably being a bit too optimistic. Competent would be a start.Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Argentina as the world's most downwardly mobile nationJul 29th, 2014 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Love it, love it, love it
I've been told that before Peron most people were dirt poor and couldn't even be able to vote since elections were rigged. Peron didn't rig the elections as much, he legalized trade unions, introduced the concept of human rights in Argentina, gave 8 hour work ships and paid vacations, attempted to industrialize the country which the landowners refused to do. People were able to afford TVs and electronic appliances for the first time during Peron. For virtually everyone in Argentina the era before Peron was the Dark Ages and Peron's government was our golden age, and the paradise the people are working for. Peron is our Jesus Christ, it's pointless to think of Argentina without Peronism now. If Argentina thrives it can only be with Peronism, either in the government or the political arena.Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@17 There wasn't always so much indoctrination. Both the Peronists and the dictatorship indoctrinated but this ended with the return of democracy... until CFK began indoctrinating again some years ago. I didn't even know there were even teaching with Paka Paka in schools until last week. Of course all teachers are biased.
@18 Don't forget that the Kirchners censored virtually all media for a very long time. It wasn't until 2008 that Clarin began criticizing the gov't and it wasn't until 2012 that the crimes of the Kirchners were being uncovered. Since they were elected in 2003 (yes, they began censoring everything as soon as they got in power) it was almost impossible to find out what was going on for nearly a decade, even in the dictatorship there was less censorship. Who knows what CFK is still hiding. Nobody but CFK knows for sure how bad the country is.
It looks like the decline began in the infamous decade of the 30s:Jul 29th, 2014 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@21 I believe that the majority were dirt poor and the wealth was held by the minority. There has to be the right circumstances for people like Peron, Chavez and Castro to thrive. The inequality and extreme disparity in the distribution of wealth creates an environment for extreme characters to thrive. They just need to ensure that the dirt poor just become the poor and give them plenty of hope, distort the truth, control the media and distract whilst robbing the country blind and voilà.Jul 29th, 2014 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If Peronism cannot be removed from the psyche of Argentines is needs to be reborn in a new guise and sold to the public.
@ 23 ElaineBJul 29th, 2014 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
You have said on many posts that your friends cannot find out what is going on in Argentina for themselves.
Why is this, do they not have access to the internet?
I find it very strange that people are cut off in the day and age.
24.Jul 29th, 2014 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Its not a problem of lack of information, but rather a lot of bad quality information.
For example in the holdout case there were mistakes made over and over by the most mainstream Arg media like La Nacion & Clarin.
They just don’t seem to have good enough analyst and experts to follow the case, some random posters on Mercopress knew with far more approximation what was going on and what would happen.
The reason why they dont read foreign news is because they are in English and Argentines get revolved in their stomach with anger when any outsider critics us, makes fun at us or condemns us. Just look at Tobi
Elaine B maybe you need to find new Argentine friends ie friends you respect not patronise. There are plenty of middleclass Argentines who have a good world view and can put their country into context with the world. They have travelled or lived abroad or even travel every year abroad. They know whats going in their own country - most probably better than you - and they know how it is for us Europeans or Americans in our own countries - maybe not as well as you know - but they have a good idea.Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
You need to find other 'circles' maybe.
@25 You make some good points there.Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I would add @24 That some of my friends are not fluent enough in English to plough through a WSJ or Economist article, for instance. Others, that are fluent in English simply don't know where to look and some don't really understand the economics involved.
I wouldn't point them here as I know they would be heartily ashamed of some of the 'Argentine' twits posting here. I do direct them to other sites but as CD said, they are getting a lot of conflicting information.
You also have to consider that not everyone is as interested as we are. That doesn't make them ignorant, it is just that they are trying to get through the days and making ends meet. They don't always have the leisure to spend hours researching online.
There is a large Argentinian contingent in London and quite possibly other European capitals. These people must realise what is wrong looking back at their country? Does anyone know what the general feeling is amongst these people? They must have seen how Europe and the US have tackled their own problems? Its probably from people like these who have experienced other countries that a new leader would come.Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@24 Most people don't read media from the other side of the world, IF they read news they read news from newspapers in our country. Keep in mind most people in Argentina don't know English, only the elite know enough english to read say WSJ. Most people aren't educated enough to read the news. Just 20% of the people in Argentina, tops, read a newspaper and of those only 10% read media that wasn't bought or censored by the Kirchners. People only use the Internet for Facebook and Youtube here (well, that goes for most of the world as well).Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
And of course, international media merely parrot what our newspapers report with some very basic analysis. They don't care enough about Argentina to send journalists, so they aren't of any help.
I read/watch the media here in Argentina and I wouldnt say they are as ignorant across the board. Sometimes they make silly mistakes and assumptions in the rush to release information but that happens everywhere. Every evening for the last month or 2 there have been various programs discussing this case as it has progressed.Jul 29th, 2014 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Many Argentines care - maybe not the poorer sectors but thats the same in any country with regards to complex political or economical matters like this.
Its an incredibly complicated situation - virtually unprecedented - with various parties involved all wanting different outcomes. Noone knows whats going to happen after the deadline expires - not even the judge seems to know how to handle this case.
That Montenegro chap who has a radio and tv show seems to do quite a good job explaining the details and developing hypothesis.
An interesting and informed discussion on this thread and a great improvement on the usual shit slinging.Jul 29th, 2014 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Peronism is a relict political idea from 80 years ago. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco have gone but the Peron cult still lives on.
Fascism is really just another side of the coin to Marxism as practised in the Soviet Union by Stalin.
And don't forget the latest, Putin!Jul 29th, 2014 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Or do you think he does not have a nationalistic agenda.
Time to stop the cunt enforce he becomes one of the above!
@27. Here's a couple of thoughts. Remind them of the similarities between Peron, the Junta and the Kirchners on the one hand and Hitler on the other. Remind that, in the 30s and 40s, the Germans were also stupid. Remind them of how people in nazi Germany and soviet Russia disappeared. Much like the events of the Dirty War in the 70s. Remind them that, just like the nazis, they tried to take something that didn't belong to them. Remind them also that, unlike the nazis, it only took Britain 74 days to defeat them. Point out that, despite them thinking that they could draw a line under the days of the Junta, the British people still consider them responsible if they are over 32 or hold the same views.Jul 29th, 2014 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Never mind just the economics. Explain how the civilised world views them. Not the lovey-dovey jam they get from Kirchner, but the reality. Suggest they make a list of all the negative attributes that could be assigned to a being. Then point how many of those attributes argies have. Don't forget to mention the genocides! Get the idea? Try to convey how contemptible they are seen to be. Oh, nearly forgot. Remind them of how much money they owe. About US$100 billion, isn't it? Plus interest.
And your last paragraph? That's where you come in. You can explain the shortcuts to show how they will suffer.
Le Putain is an ex KGB officer who has never accepted the dissolution of the Soviet empire.Jul 29th, 2014 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Redpoll, the shit slinging isnt happening because the various poisonous trolls and their synchophant have been stunnned into silence. And, we are all generally in agreement. I am sure they will be along shortly with more irrelavent comments..Jul 29th, 2014 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Anybody know what the. BCRA assets are? I think a figure of 31 bn has been mentioned but Argentine statistics .... As far as I remember the Argentine govt raided their dollar funds in exchange for government bonds which post default will be pretty well worthless on the market.Jul 29th, 2014 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
They also raided the pension funds on the same basis. In both cases as the currency collapses it's The K govt which will control the haircut.
@33 I give information but I don't insult them. There are ways of giving enough facts for them to reach their conclusions without me imposing an opinion on them. And they are my friends. If they ask me something directly, I try to answer honestly.Jul 29th, 2014 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If I may use my neighbours as an example (I have no idea HOW typical this view is).Jul 29th, 2014 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The head of the family (V) who is the eldest son and had taken over the five businesses that the family own when his father died. Two years ago I asked how they were doing and he was worried then. Last year he told me he had closed two and was very concerned about the others: very high taxation was restricting his cash flow and it was exacerbated by the tax office not refunding the IVA element to him (in the UK you only forward the net VAT to the tax office) in the usual time, it was taking much longer.
I broached the fact that 2015 was an election year and he laughed “none of us vote Chris, why would we when the results are fixed? I have never voted in any elections and probably never will”.
I was surprised by this, he is an intelligent guy and he and his wife have bought their two sons up just like we did with our family to respect others and behave themselves.
If this view IS typical of people similar to V’s family how on earth is Argentina ever going to get rid of Peronism?
@ 6 Bombadier SpoonJul 29th, 2014 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Many of us have been living in Argentina for shorter or longer periods (I myself for almost six years and still visiting twice a year) and we have friends among the ordinary, good Argentinos.
We would like to see the insane government (and peronism in general) evaporate to save normal, sane Argentinos.
WSJ is lying for a change. (of course that joke).Jul 30th, 2014 - 04:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Settling with the holdout would be far worse for Argentina people than default. Simple as that.
38. Chris that's basically the same story for my best friends family in Argentina. In the 80s they had multiple mfg companies, by the 90s they had none, they lost all of their personal assets to pay the employees, the gov't left them with no money to start again. So my friend grew up traveling, muliple homes, cars, household staff, his sister 5 yrs younger, by that time they still had enough $ for her to get a good education, his brother 10 yrs younger, the family was completely broke and he couldn't even finish high school and now works as a waiter.Jul 30th, 2014 - 12:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Its the same story for most of the middle class.
In 3 generations the family's wealth, ambition and education were taken away by bad gov't policy.
They will never recover.
Just like the country.
I told him the best his sister's kid could hope for is to be a maid for an American family and he just about killed me.
But that's probably what will happen.
You have a way with words to your friends yb.....still pretending to be an American?Jul 30th, 2014 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@36 ask yankeeboy here but it's much less than 30 billion.Jul 30th, 2014 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Cretina, what happened to the Chinese line of credit? No on likes a serial defaulter.Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0