MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
“Argentina will imminently be in default: no agreement was reached”, said Pollack
“Unfortunately no agreement was reached and Argentina will imminently be in default”, admitted Daniel A. Pollack, the Special Master appointed by Judge Thomas P. Griesa to conduct and preside over settlement negotiations between Argentina and its holdout bondholders. Pollack emphasized that with default “the ordinary Argentine citizen will be the real and ultimate victim”. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulessad,but true
Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0As I wrote earlier, when the debt burden becomes unsustainable, you refinance your house. In Marxism, there must not be such a thing as bankruptcy.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0A sad end for a proud country. Machismo got the best of the woman, and every Argentine will suffer as a consequence of her vanity.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0They must have a plan; destroy the economy of Argentina.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 03:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ok, Argentina default.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 04:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Default was big gun of hold-out.
Big gun taken away from hold-out.
Now what.
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5 AN
Jul 31st, 2014 - 04:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your finance minister says you're not in default but let's say you are. You still owe the money; that hasn't changed. As I understand it Argentine property is now vulnerable to what effectively amounts to bailiff action and this includes property that would ordinarily be considered to have sovereign protection. So Alicia better make sure she gets everything out of the glove compartment of that beautiful black 7 Series BMW (reg number: ARG 1) for example.
There will, of course, be plenty of other effects from default but I think the large-scale property repossession will be one of the truly defining, humiliating symbols of the last months of TMBOA's rule.
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You are dreaming if you believe any government in the world outside the USA will allow properties to be taken away. You are truly naïve about world politics.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 04:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Even in the USA, after a couple of “repos”, the US government will grow tired of the disruption to bilateral relations (which go further than unpaid bonds), and pass some sort of order to stop the circus.
The money is still owed by each new default makes it more unlikely the hold-outs see a cent, ever.
@7 Tobias
Jul 31st, 2014 - 05:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are dreaming if you believe that every single other country in the world gives a crap about Argentina. They don't. They follow this little thing called the 'rule of law'.
So yes, Argentine property could be seized just about anywhere in the world. Even in China or Russia.
Time will tell, of course. If you're wrong Tobias, will you be man enough to come back on here and admit it?
http://www.elsalvador.com/mwedh/nota/nota_completa.asp?idCat=47861&idArt=8979807
Jul 31st, 2014 - 05:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0@8
Jul 31st, 2014 - 06:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Who Tobias?
Anyway, I won't be wrong, and you know it. Every single country in the world cares about Argentina. Not in the way you think. They care in that they don't want unnecessary headaches. They already have enough with the huge problems their own nations including yours face internally, and all the crises around the world exploding by the minute, and now a possible global pandemic to boot.
You think governments will want to be bothered by court injunctions seizing airplanes, embassy buildings, bank accounts, and creating to them another diplomatic problem?
Keep dreaming.
@10 TTT, I love how you think the world works on the basis of whether people can be bothered to do something or not. :)
Jul 31st, 2014 - 06:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is in the shit again. Their only hope at the moment is if the Argentine capitalist bankers step in and strike a deal to save the populist government.
@10 it will be a much bigger problem for them not to enforce the reciprocal judgement treaties that country has with the US. It also goes against that concept you still don't understsnd called the rule of law. A number of countries take it very seriously
Jul 31st, 2014 - 07:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0@12
Jul 31st, 2014 - 07:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Uh, US courts have no jurisdiction over other countries. There is no such thing as reciprocal judgment when it comes to decisions that impinge on that countries ability to conduct its own foreign policy independently. On top of that, Griesa himself said the ruling only applies to New York bonds, and the majority are not.
@11
I love how you think you are so much smarter than others, you really aren't.
Most of the world won't be bothered with it. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Just like you Brits can't be bothered to arrest and try Tony Blair, even though there are proven substantial grounds to make that arrest.
@13 Ah, TTT, you just can't help reverting to type.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your country, Argentina, is in default. This is bad news for you, your countrymen and the future of Argentina. Trying to distract or claiming nothing will happen because 'no one can be bothered' is head in the sand thinking. It is not just about retrieving 'goods to the value of', it is far more damaging to the economy. Try looking at the bigger picture.
Elaine, you are trying to argue with Nostril. Practically everything this sad individual espouses defies logic. Its no use asking him to be logical because he wont, he never has and never will.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Should be an interesting day. I wonder what will get seized first?
@13 - Not jurisdiction but those countries have signed treaties where they agree to abide rulings made in the US courts, just as the US have done the same for them. The only wiggle room is that they can derrogate from this should that ruilings run contrary to public policy. This is never really used and is only saved for matters of extreme urgency which affect the country to a material extent. Argentina defaulting is of no matter to them. In fact, a couple of your assets being siezed isn't worth a pinch of shit to anyone...let alone a material derrogation from internal public policy.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0@15 No, not arguing with him. Surprisingly, he does absorb a lot of information given to him. His stance has changed considerably over these last few months from 'nothing will happen' to 'it will but I'll be O.K.' to 'it has happened but…. oh, look over there!'.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0“The money is still owed by each new default makes it more unlikely the hold-outs see a cent, ever.”
Jul 31st, 2014 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0And that sums up how argentina regards this issue. They were determined not to give the holdouts any money, because they think the holdouts don’t deserve to be paid. They thought that they could default on their loans and just walk away – home free. In their minds it was jolly decent of them to offer their debtors anything, and the holdouts, well how dare these insufferable people demand that argentina repay its debt in full, plus interest!
This is argentina, a sovereign country, it can do what it likes, rip people off, persecute its smaller neighbours, make specious territorial claims on other peoples territory, prostitute the UN. How dare these miserable holdouts demand that argentina face up to its responsibilities!
Being a sovereign country involves, amoung other things, taking responsibility for its own finances – if argentina can’t do that, they should be governed by UN mandate.
@ 17 ElaineB
Jul 31st, 2014 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0What is different between the TIT and the majority of the Argentine people, haven’t they also followed your analysis of him?
The “Head in sand” solution seems to be the Argentine way.
Can you imagine if any UK government had gotten itself in this situation? Most probably that would be impossible because they would fall at the first vote of confidence and cooler heads would develop a solution.
I have always thought that TMBOA was solely to blame for this disaster which is yet to unfold and reveal itself and the full majesty of the law’s effects on the populace and the child in NY was always going to be the dismal failure that all of us knew him to be (except The Lunatic).
From my perspective there is no helping these people. Unless you know different?
I really wish the Argentine people the very best of luck, and I hope that in the next presidential election, a more sane person will take over as president and finally start to turn around Argentina's economy and think long-term and foster sustained growth.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Having said that, Argentina would never have defaulted like this (nor 12-13 years ago nor beforehand), or would have been less likely to default, had any of the following happened differently in its history:
1) the British manage to take over Buenos Aires in their invasions in 1806-07. No, this is not a case of “para ingles ver”, because what we're talking about is that the British and Irish settlers pour into Argentina in such a world like they do in the United States, Canada, Australia, etc. and both the settlers and the British government bring in British institutions of common law, more equal land ownership, civil society, etc. The Spanish people that are remaining get absorbed into that society but keep their laws and religion (no different than the Quebecois or the Afrikaners), even though at times they might be in conflict with the British. This produces a society where British investment (e.g. railroads) was not direct like it was in real-life Argentina and thus vulnerable to nationalist attacks by demagogues like Peron, but rather (as in Canada or Australia) which was indirect and rail companies and so forth would have been owned by Argentines and headquartered in Buenos Aires rather than London. The end result is that Argentina would be a developed country like Canada or Australia and not the basketcase it's been these past decades.
2) rural lands get distributed more equally in the early 1900s than in real life
3) no coup in 1930
4) Roberto Ortiz's diabetes holds off ca. 1940 and he can remain president and carry on his non-corrupt policies (and perhaps Peron doesn't take over in 1945)
5) CFK doesn't become presidenta in 2007, and someone more technocratic is elected instead
An English judge is set to sort this mess out get the idiot yank judge out.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0@19 You cannot tar all Argentines with the same brush. That would be like saying all British are represented by The Daily Mail. TTT is an extreme version of an Argentine adolescent (though some say he is older), he is a URL Badman. (Look up the song by Lily Allen, it could have been written about him). No, he does not represent the majority, though displays some traits.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think it is wrong to lump everyone into one stereotype. They work within the cultural norms for Argentina. It just doesn't transfer well outside of the country - maybe Italy. And you have to take into account that the a huge number are under-educated, ill-informed and just getting by any way they can.
I know of a chap who works for the post office, he is a brother of one of my friends and is quite content to work for a living. If only he could. He often turns up at work to be told he has to go and stand outside a building and shout a slogan all day. Why? Because his union says so and if he didn't he would lose his job. He doesn't even know what he is protesting about.
What can he do? Make a personal protest, lose his job and income? Would it change anything?
It will take a person with power and charisma to fundamentally change Argentina. They work within the system as it is, and you can't blame them. And why should we impose our values on another country?
However, if they want to operate and be part of the global economy, they have to adapt to the rules. That is the part they cannot understand.
@13. You really must try to catch up with the real world. In reality, courts around the world respect each other's judgements. If you doubt this, trot off to your law library. Pick out all the cases where cases were decided on “foreign” precedents. There are a few exceptions. The “courts” that have submitted to the politicians. Proper courts will examine the relevant law. And then argieland will die. Inch by inch. Enjoy. And, at the end, the free people will still be there. Making you PAY for 200 years of criminality, lying and thieving.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 020, all those things you copied and pasted did not cause the default. Maybe you should reread the article. Mr. Kicillof is a professor that teaches the history of economics, hardly someone who should lead the economics of a country.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What a disgrace.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am deeply ashamed for this situation. We Argentinians have being grossly misrepresented by these incompetents who think that everything can be solved as if it was a political rally.
Sorry, world. Sorry, rest of the Argentinians who wake up early and work. Sorry. One day we will get rid of this sickness and maybe we can start again as a serious country.
Now what you Argentine's need to do is demand through your representatives ( and this is a stretch) that Kirchner be impeached for gross mismanagement. If all the Argentine's cannot see it now, you never will.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What amazes me about your “democracy” is that constituents cannot meet with their representatives via district offices.
18 downunder
Jul 31st, 2014 - 01:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spot on!
I hope the people do not suffer too much.
Stringing up CFK would make the world look more favourably on them, however.
@25
Jul 31st, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why? Argentina I'm glad it never does as the EU, US demand us to do.
They are nobodies to boss us around, they are criminals for trying to curtail Argentine independence.
Many nationals are sovereign and independent and STILL pay they contractual obligations.....everyone except criminally, rogue regimes.......like in SA.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I saw the sign upon entering Argentina.....“VENEZUELA OR BUST”....in this case it is both.
The only one's that will not be affected by this are the poor living off meager government handouts. They do not care anyway because that 40% of Argentina's population never wanted to work or be self sufficient anyway....right #28 Tobias?
#28 how's mommies nipples? They will be drying up soon.....si? But, no worries......your daddy will always feed you.
24: I'm not saying that the missed opportunities *directly* caused this most recent default. What I am saying, however, is that all the processes going on in Argentina's history because of missing these opportunities have eventually led to the political and economic chaos of the past several decades, or at least the 2001-02 default or at least this default. For example, the fact that the British were defeated in Buenos Aires in 1806-07 caused the Spanish and their inheritors, the independent Argentines, to keep the Hispanic pattern of quite unequal land ownership as well as autocratic - or at best semi-democratic - government (with major consequences for the country's long-term economic development - especially, but not entirely, the 19th century civil wars and the post-Peron chaos that Argentina's never recovered from). To give the most recent missed opportunity, if CFK had not been brought to power in 2007, Kicillof would not have become the economic minister and perhaps someone much more capable and less radical than him would have steered Argentina's economy in the right direction.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And no, I did not copy my original comment (#20) verbatim from an article.
@ 22 ElaineB
Jul 31st, 2014 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for that.
@26 It is impossible to impeach CFK, there are too many of her acolytes in Congress. If the mafia's feral boys don't kick her out we will have to wait until she finishes her term.
Jul 31st, 2014 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They would rather blame everyone else until their terms are up and they're gone....
Jul 31st, 2014 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@28
Jul 31st, 2014 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They may indeed be “nobodies” to you.
However it was these nobodies who you were begging to lend you money, these nobodies who you begged to be allowed to only pay back a tiny %, and these nobodies who hold you accountable to the legal documents you signed.
Of course you don't respect the laws to which you sign up to, you are an Argentine.
However, we will wait and see the impact of your ignorance and “gladness” and how these nobodies will react. Think yourself lucky these nobodies are sympathetic, if the roles were reversed Argentina would be looking to invade.
@7 Alistair Nigel
Jul 31st, 2014 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You are dreaming if you believe any government in the world outside the USA will allow properties to be taken away”
Similar to the even more stupid dream that the Argentine government has in thinking that it can issue arrest warrants for people involved in helping the Falkland islanders to extract their oil and then put them in Argentine prisons.
Anyone been arrested yet since 2010 when Argentina first announced this?
Still waiting with baited breath......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
@ 35 Pete Bog
Jul 31st, 2014 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did you miss the announcement that more than 100 people 'infesting' the islands have been jailed?
Honest, Guv. It's all in Gollums' 'Book of the Malvinas'.
I bet you were worried there, just for a nanosecond! ;o)
Good, this should happen to every over-extended nation in the world. Hopefully, people will stop lending money to governments that are not in a position to pay it back, and force them to cut their spending to the level of their incoming revenue. Why should anyone loan money to corrupt, irresponsible politicians to buy support, and keep themselves in power?
Jul 31st, 2014 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@37
Jul 31st, 2014 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree. Scotland is wise to walk away now!
38 Nostrils
Aug 01st, 2014 - 12:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0off-topic
obviously, you have nothing relevant to say.
Isn't the UK a nation in “this” world? So how is it out of topic?
Aug 01st, 2014 - 02:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Or are the UK also planning a referendum regarding their current status within “the planet Earth”?
I'm sure it would be a bitter fight, maybe even the “nays” would win!
Then the world would celebrate the UK pulling out of “the Earth”.
Nostrils @38, 40
Aug 01st, 2014 - 04:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0is off-topic.
The subject is debtor Argentina defaulting on a loan, again.
It has nothing to do with the UK or Scotland.
#40 ”Then the world would celebrate the UK pulling out of “the Earth”.
Aug 01st, 2014 - 07:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0IF they did then they would be joining argentina, they stopped being citizens of the earth years ago!
A first in capitalism history: a country has the will and the capacity to pay, but it's forced to “default” by a judge working hard to get well-deserved 1,600 per cent profits to a handful of predatory financiers. Many really believe the propaganda disseminated by the vultures and their allies in the media and totally overlook the fact that Argentina is NOT in a default situation, has not caved in to the blackmailing of the last couple months, and the government in place will not mortgage its people's future. Next: watch Griesa beginning to crumble like a mummy that has been there well past its expiry date.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0#27 Troy Tempest: “I hope the people do not suffer too much.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 03:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Stringing up CFK would make the world look more favourably on them, however.”
I agree!
BUT:
“...........overlook the fact that Argentina is NOT in a default situation, has not caved in to the blackmailing of the last couple months, and the government in place will not mortgage its people's future. Next: watch Griesa beginning to crumble like a mummy that has been there well past its expiry date.”
The denial and bloody mindedness continues!!
44 downunder
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0I see what you mean.
Worse. They are playing the victimisation conspiracy game too - “they are laughing at us, calling us defaultino... ”
whipping up hatred and blame towards the “enemies” of Argentina.
45 Troy Tempest (#)
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 07:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, same old delusion, denial and paranoia. They suffer from a severe case of low self esteem.
#43 Does it bother you that they paid 40 million for the bonds and could make 1600% over what......a year period.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you saying the if they paid more money for the distressed and legally due bonds Argentina would pay?
It is dfficult for your kind to comprehend why they DID default so someone should explain it slowly:
T H E O R I G I N A L C O N T R A C T F O R T H E B O N D S S T A T E T H A T W H E N Y O U P A Y O N E B O L D H O L D E R Y O U M U S T P A Y T H E M A L L E Q U A L L Y. T H E R E F O R E M A K I N G T H A T 539 M I L L I O N P A Y M E N T WITHOUT T H E H O L D O U T S I S D E F A U L T.
Another thing your kind have a hard time understanding. The judge is not there to make both sides equal so get other that. His job is to rule on facts presented to him to apply the appropriate rule of law and in USA lawsuits..........some cases are stronger than others.
Good luck with the RG “speculative” investigation. To you even know that while your population may not agree the the holdout's concept of investing that the vast majority just want to pay and move on?
Even Brazil now has had it with the kirchner 3 ring circus: (Capitanich, Boudou and Kicilloff.......it's a guess how has their hand up Christina's ass working the ass puppet)
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1713955-aseguran-en-brasil-que-cristina-kirchner-tiene-una-tactica-suicida-frente-a-los-holdouts
Like the X files........the truth is out there if you look......and want to know it.
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