MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
“Debt restructuring” and the Argentine case by Joseph Stiglitz
The following piece published in The New York Times was written by Joseph E. Stiglitz, winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics and a former chief economist of the World Bank, and currently a professor at Columbia University. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThe obvious answer to that then is that 'the law' requires change. As I understand it has been in the UK.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0In the meantime Argentina 'signed on' for the subject bonds under one law and now does not like it TOUGH.
I further understand that a group of economists have written to the US Congress to try to start the alteration of 'the law' but in the meantime Argentina should abide by the law in effect at the time. However Argentina has a history of reneging on agreements treaties etc. so what else can one expect?
Greed it may be, but greed is what turns our world around and argentina plays its part too.....and its legal, tough sh*t Argentina you borrowed the money you are just paying what you owe at a discount don't forget.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yay to the K model working well isn't it?
Is this another Economist that appears to be agreeing with my previous stated views....?...;-)
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0A Nobel prize winner for Economics and chief economist of the World bank....
I'm in such good company...
...his views appear to be slightly different to the Mercopress forum's chief Economist...Yankeeboy!!!
Whose views shall I respect.....? Nobel..or YB...Nobel or YB....I just can't make my mind up......Not!
“they would eventually find a sympathetic judge who did not understand what was at issue and rule in their favor.”
haha...telling it, like it is.....
...although I prefer...“Senile old bat that hasn't a clue what he's doing”
.....;-)))))
Oh, this would be the economist Joseph Stiglitz that praises Venezuela's economic policies!
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0You got a Nobel Prize in Economics Skip...???
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0..maybe I should listen to you...
(3) & (5) A Voice
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0We are indeed in good company, Mr Voice...
Yank Mr.Joseph Stiglitz, from his “Nobel” position is, (inspired by that other intelligent Yank, Mr. Ezra Pound, I think) focusing on one of the biggest scourges of humanity...... Greed.
Let's bash some of the greedy Patrick Bateman's and Gordon Gekko's out there ;-)
Obama has a Nobel Prize too. So, for sure he's brillliant.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Stiglitz' proposition leads to countries borrowing money and just “restructuring” that debt, not paying it back. They decide they can't pay it back because they skimmed it all and the borrowed money then didn't lead to an increased tax base with increased revenue to pay the loan back.
Government officials, elitists really, don't mind loaning money like this. They like giving away taxpayers money that isn't theirs, in the name of international diplomacy.
Making it easier to default won't help global financing of the financing in developing countries. It will lead to corrupt elitist thieves from one part of the world flim flamming money out of innocent unsuspecting people in other parts of the world. I thought Stiglitz wanted to protect innocent people.
Leftists just want to take money from people who have it and Stiglitz' thinking is no different.
And anyone who thinks a Nobel Prize is necessary to see that is just a blind leftist no-brained idiot.
Welcome to how leftist thinking sounds good but really just brings things closer to chaos.
7
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0...was waiting for the first idiot to mention Obama.....
Obama has the “Nobel Peace” prize...not the ultimate accolade that can be achieved in one's chosen field and expertise....
Next....
Think aka The Lunatic of Chew Butt and 'Voice' in unison.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Foot in sock (puppet) perchance?
Ah! The good old argie trick of castigating the messenger and this messenger backed by SCOTUS says pay the money.
Now that IS reasonable to all the reasonable people following The Dark Country and the crooks.
Have a look at this 'Nobel Prize Winner and remember that Obumma has the Peace Prize and the other Yankke pratt and Prez wanabe has been lauded for global warming OH NO IT'S climate change now the world is NOT warming before placing too much reliance on him: he has a reputation for saying the reverse is also true and changes his mind like changing his socks.
But there again he is an economist.
Voice (of Axel) and Think turnip. A compromise solution would have been to pay off the vultures via the banks, but arogant myopic RG polictricians decided otherwise and ordinary Argentinians will increasingly pay the price. What a mess… Just plunges the country further towards the tbird world brown stuff when what is needed is a radical change of direction away from debilitating Peronist dogma. As for your economic credentials, what a pair of ripe turnips?
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0(8) A Voice
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0No Bateman's nor Gekko's in sight...
You have clearance to bash them turnips ...
Well articulated by Stiglitz
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ahhhhhhh...., Mr. Lucdeluc...
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Have been reading his comments with interest...
Not a friend of Argentina...., but definitely no Turnip...
11 Think
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm afraid it's your turn Mr. Think....I'm off to Glasgow to have a nosey at the Commonwealth events....
...and I've noticed the meaningless Voice has appeared again....he's still sore that I left him high and dry and looking like an idiot....ho hum..;-))
Voice (of Axel) , the general opinion seems to be that YOU are the one with the sore rear end, not me. Saying you won is a poor substitute for actually winning, but I guess you are used to that… England is doing rather well.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well articulated by Stieglitz” You are wrong Stieglitz very wrong, What about personal responsibility were corrupt governments borrow money and them they refuse to pay under new corrupts government the vulture founds act like the police for corrupt countries like Argentina they are the future deterrence from banking system that issue bond's to corrupt governments.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0More power to the vulture founds!!! I like them!
The non-partisan milieu is simple ; concepts of law and justice are two entirely separate subjects.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tyrants and corporatists force laws upon humanity with forked tongues; one side of the mouth piously claims they support a nation based on the rule of law, the other side of the mouth smiles as tangled laws steal land, create debt slaves and pump drugs from factories and farms while laundering money on secret islands.
The future for humanity on Earth is short without justice.
(14) A Voice
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Enjoy the Games....
.............................What can be said about false Anglo “Voice” trying to cheat in such a primitive way....
It reminds me so of Sholes unartistic Engrish version of the “Hand of God”...:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vB2h1ynKLII
Stiglitz is right in many if not most cases, but there is a distinction to meet beyond those countries that are unable to meet their legal obligations, and those that choose not to, especially not as a regular policy option.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What can we say about Stiglitz? He's an “economist”. What can we say about “economists”? They're a bunch of idiots. Let's look at what “economists” do. They observe. They sit around making up “rules”. Then, when things happen differently, they make up some more “rules”. Unfortunately, there's a “human” element in financial matters. But “economists” can't cope with that, so they ignore it. Stiglitz is typical “expert”. He's got a lovely little number that can only be understood by others that subscribe to the same ideas. They “understand” 1 + 1, they don't understand what criminals will do.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stiglitz is right about one thing. It is about greed. Argie greed. The law exists for two purposes. To protect people and punish wrongdoers. It's not about pandering to the “Stiglitz system”. Just look at what he says ”The vultures have invoked the rule of law but we should be clear: This is about greed. By arguing for an interpretation of the legal principle that all investors be treated the same — totally at odds from that which is traditionally ascribed to it by both economists and market participants — they have undermined the rule of law, and made debt restructuring almost impossible.“ Translation; Investors are fair game. Bond issuers should be able to do whatever they want, irrespective of legal principles or natural justice. Unfortunately, in this case, a proper judge got involved and was able to impose both legal principles AND natural justice. Let's look at one very specific comment. ”totally at odds from that which is traditionally ascribed to it by both economists and market participants“. Doesn't that say everything? ”Keep your noses out of our criminality”.
Is anyone surprised Voice and Think side with a Socialist?
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyone?
How can otherwise supposedly accomplished, smart and successful liberals can ignore history and their own eyes? How can they not see how markets and true opportunity-rich free-market capitalism has not been the biggest engine of human freedom and the ONLY thing that has worked to bring millions out of poverty.
It doesn't take an economist to work this out . Argentina has no money to repay this debt,Why....ask Jorge Lanata an Argentinian journalist !
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Economists. Some are left of center, some right of center. You will find both sides very interesting to read.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At last a serious article about this on Mercopress - surprised it was even published and is in alignment with other economic experts views in the financial times of London. I note other global hedge fund investors have Argentina as a buy - I said that over two years ago and still raking in the money down there - we have never had such high profits as we get right now in our oil and gas business!
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know who I would be taking my financial advice from and it wouldn't be the money losing gringo reprobate posters on this
So the nutjobs in charge, Austral Elvis and CFK are doubling down and going on a wild spending spree printing as many pesos as they need to try and goose the economy
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You heard it here first, I told everyone that is EXACTLY what would happen. EXACTLY
Devaluation and Hyperinflation are immanent.
Watch out below.
Definition of an economist.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A finanancial expert on what SHOULD have been done with hindsight!
As Anglotino pointed out, this guy Stig of the Dump is a fan of Venezuealn economics.... hmm...
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bread-lines anyone? Import 90% of foodstuffs and domestic goods? 33 million arable hectares dormant? failure to pay the international airlines?
Hell yeah, this guy Stiglitz has got it all goin' on!
… .me, enjoy the (colonialist) games? Remnants of the British Empire enjoying an archaic anochristic ritual? I am off to blow my own bagpipes (nothing changes). There is only one true Voice, and I have them distracted and on the run. Lol!
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yankeeboy has been right all along.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Put three economists in a room and they will come up with six different theories. In short, they don't all agree and they even disagree with their own theories.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Theorise away. It won't improve the mess Argentina is in now.
the imbeciles here suddenly support the vulture funds...
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0putting aside the incapacity of kirchner + kicillof, the fact is that these holdouts are a bunch of thieves.
maybe the permanent imbeciles of this 4th class site also think that soros and his fund were honest people after provoking the collapse of the british pound.
lets see what these imbeciles think of vulture funds when they appear in britain. considering the enormous debt, it will be pretty soon.
Paul have you started juggling in traffic yet?
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0stiglitz, december 2011 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb53T1MNU3Q . jajaja
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 033. Great find, I seemed to remember that idiot saying that but thanks for reminding me.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I remember correctly lots o'Rgs on MP bashed me then...and look who turned out to be right.
Somebody should search the archives. I bet ol'stink was yapping it up calling me every name he could think of.
:)
me again...being right.
Juggling? He can't hold a balanced debate without mudslinging. Can't imagine him being able to juggle.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think we should hold a fundraiser for paulcedron. Hopefully we will get enough donations for a bucket and a dirty old rag as he will soon hanging about on central reservations.
They call him Carwash Paulie, oh yeah! Carwash! Paulie is doin' tha carwash!
Well done for electing Cristina. I don't think she is gonna help you know, down at the Carwash. ...
#31 Paul… here in England is the world HQ of vulture capitalists, we are proud of them, like vultures in the wild they clean up the mess picking the bones of failed companies and nations clean. It all fits nicely with our long history of piracy. I cannot envisage a time when our bonds will acquire the junk status that yours seem to have acquired. We dont have that level of economic mismanagement corruption and incompetence here
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Love their Deputy Economy Ministers latest addition to their world of fantasy.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentina keeps winning!”
What? Like in 82 or more recent, the world cup!
Argentina keeps winning.
PMSL laughing at that.
Let us analyze how extraordinarily little Joseph E. Stiglitz knows about the subject.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stiglitz: “The vulture funds — the small number of creditors who held out from Argentina's earlier debt restructuring -- “
No. There are thousands of holdouts worldwide. A couple of examples: In 2012 more than 400 German holdouts who had been robbed of their pension savings filed against Argentina in Frankfurt. In 2012 more than 400 German holdouts who had been robbed of their pension savings filed against Argentina in Frankfurt.
Stiglitz demonstrates his ignorance, 1.
- - - - - - -
Stiglitz: ”They picked up their bonds on the cheap“
A July 6th, 2011 judgment from the most respected court in the world, The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, makes it clear that the NML Capital Ltd paid more than 50 percent of their face value of 172 million USD.
At the restructuring, Argentian paid less than 30 percent of their face value. These terms provided bondholders much less compensation than plans offered in other developing-nation debt restructurings, which averaged 50 to 60 percent haircuts. Moreover, the plan stipulated that its terms were not subject to negotiation; and on February 9, 2005 ...
”Vultures” paid mor than 50, Argentina less than 30. Who are the real vultures?
Stiglitz demonstrates his ignorance, 2.
- - - - - - -
(3 more to come)
Let's have it, sonny!
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stiglitz: “they would eventually find a sympathetic judge who did not understand what was at issue and rule in their favor.”
The main parts of Federal Judge Greisas ruling was upheld by the full US Appeals Court. The US Supreme court found not faults which would make them dismiss Federal Judge Greisas ruling.
Ruling of the full US Appeals Court: ”For the reasons stated, the judgments of the district court (1) granting summary judgment to plaintiffs on their claims for breach of the Equal Treatment Provision and (2) ordering Argentina to make “Ratable Payments” to plaintiffs concurrent with or in advance of its payments to holders of the 2005 and 2010 restructured debt are affirmed.“
Stiglitz demonstrates his ignorance, 3.
- - - - - - -
Stiglitz: ”anyone buying bonds after a country announces a debt restructuring ...“
The July 6th, 2011 judgment from The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom makes it clear that NML Capital Ltd bought their bonds from June 2001 and September 2003. The previous Argentina default was one of the last days of December 2001; the first debt restructuring was i 2005.
Stiglitz demonstrates his ignorance, 4.
- - - - - - -
Stiglitz: ”they have undermined the rule of law, and made debt restructuring almost impossible.”
Since 2005 99.6 percent (206 out of 211) sovereign debt bond issues have contained a socalled 'collective action clause' which authorizes a supermajority (typically 2/3 or 3/4) of all bond holders to block holdouts. Holdouts is a thing of the past.
Stiglitz demonstrates his ignorance, 5.
I find it embarassing that Mercopress brings an article written by a person, who hasn't done the necessary research.
Is the problem that Stiglitz somehow has a personal, financial interest in the case?
90% of the Brazilian media is the radical right. For them we would continue north American colony.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina's right. All America should follow their example!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fEeg0h7bI4&list=FLmXPTu1f8AdGlizWNiASx2A&index=1
Boyo, if you can present documentation for that, Stigliz should be an ex-Nobel laureate. A Zero.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can. The judgments and rulings are on the official sites on the internet. Anyone who wants to do a thorough resaerch can find it.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Besides, his name is Stiglitz with a 't'.
Ah but he as a Nobel prize, a prize endowed by a man who made his money byy making it easier for us to blow people to pieces.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh the irony of it all!
I had to change the user because the user Brasileiro was blocked by the media of the reactionary right.....MERCOPRESS
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'll be back every time we needed!
My mistake. The second “In 2012 more than 400 German holdouts” was erratically copied instead of a text about the hundreds of Argentine holdouts.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Among the Argentine holdouts are ahorristas de clase media: Lila Inés Burgueño, Mirta Susana Diéguez, María Evangelina Carballo, Leandro Daniel Pomilio, Susana Aquerreta, María Elena Corral, Teresa Muñoz de Corral, Norma Elsa Lavorato, Carmen Irma Lavorato, César Rubén Vázquez, Norma Haydée Ginés y Marta Azucena Vázquez.
Pablo Alberto Varela et al. v. The Republic of Argentina :: New York Southern District Court :: US Federal District Courts Cases
It seems to me that if I am able to buy an item for less than its face value knowing that the possibility exists that at some time in the future I can sell it for its nominal value then I am taking a gamble. But there is nothing illegal about it and there is nothing, in this instance, which impedes Argentina from paying the nominal amount of the debt to the holders of their obligation.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As the Brazilian press might have said today “Pay up, ”inept, arrogant and incompetent!” ”
A turkey passing judgement on vultures. Kind of funny when you think about it. (psst: Hey Joe - I think Griesa understands more than you give him credit for.)
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0News flash: The manipulator in this matter isn't the hedge funds - its Cretina - only she's failed to accomplish anything of significance. She's only managed to manipulate the GDP numbers and the yields on the warrants but not the U.S. justice system or Singer.
If RG had abided by the terms of the contracts to which they are bounden Joe, your soap box would already be gone.
Is it possible for Argentina/CFK to sell parts of her territories to help pay of the debts,
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0after all, did not Russia sell Alaska to the Americans,
worth a try perhaps,
she could try to sell her invisible interest in the Falkland's for a bob or two,
just a thought...
imbeciles various:
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0try to think for once in your life.
you, bunch o burros, say the activity of hedge funds is legal, moral and blablabla.
again, putting aside la yegua and chiquillof, how can you, imbeciles x 1000, can defend the responsibles of the black wednesday, which caused the lost of millions of job positions and part of the 13 million people who live under the poverty threshold in the u.k.?
soros won +/- 1 billion pounds at the expense of millions of honest british taxpayers, and you, montón de boludos, think everything was fine.
so, it is not a question of nationalities, you bunch of pelotudos, but a question of sensitivity.
Poor idiot paulcedron, careful you don't blow a tire. It seems as if your bloodpressure has reached more than 3 atmosphere/sqcm.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 048
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ja.
what a gran pelotudo you are doggy crap.
we can't expect less from an islander with its typical isleño mentality.
The problem with Nobel Prize winning economists is that they have no real skin in the game.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Instead of TALKING UP A GOOD GAME, Stiglitz be forced at gunpoint to sell EVERY worldly possession he owns including his Nobel medal, and gold crowns/fillings, etc, melted and sold for scrap, use money from his garage sale proceeds pay FACE VALUE to the ”vulture hedge for a corresponding amount of NY law bonds.
As a gesture of good will, Stiglitz could then turn around, set his newly acquired BAD BONDS on fire and tell Kirchner, Kiciloff et al., that he so fully supports the Republic of Deadbeat Serial Defaulters that he sold everything except for his left nut to remove said BAD BONDS from any amounts that the Deadbeats might be forced to pay in the future to the evil hedge funds that wanted an unfair return on (and of) their money.
Money talks, and B.S. walks, Stiglitz.
I have a hunch that Stiglitz would be singing a different tune about [a]rgentina if the debt restructuring/forgiveness that demands would be coming right out of his pocket. except of course in the case of gold fillings and gold crowns, which would be coming out of his mouth. In fairness, this would probably be the 1st time in his life that anything of value came out of his mouth.
And as a consolation prize, he would “be allowed” to keep whatever silver (Ar) fillings/crowns he already had. Think of it as paying tribute to, (Ar)gentina, his favorite Deadbeat de jour.
- Merchant of Death (not affiliated with that other MoD of Nobel fame)
Paul, I noticed the people that had on plastic red noses when they juggled got more tips.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Try it and see if it lightens your mood.
Pauldron.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stop wasting time and effort comparing the shit stream you live in, with the life me and mine in the UK, because you clearly do not have a fucking clue what it's like to live here as a working man owning his home who has brought up his family to a better life than he had. your posts are pathetic and reek of jealousy, envy and disappointment. Shove your political rubbish where it belongs.
Do your self a favour, see what its like to live a normal life, EMMIGRATE FOR FUCK SAKE.
But not to the UK we have our fair share of knobheads without inviting anymore in!
Not sure why this was posted on a news site, it seems to have been posted to give credence to one side of the argument.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The crux of the matter is not how this one person thinks but how the financial markets think and how the lawyers think
Andy
Let's see Joseph Stiglitz or Paul Singer. Nobel Prize or Mitt Romney butt boy scab vulture.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Paulcauldron, our poverty threshold is far higher than Argentinas average income! You have to pay back your debts, reduce corruption, work much harder and learn to live with other countries. Then, and only then, you will be as rich and content as us. In the meantime, curb your anger, look and learn.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Paul Singer is a typical vulture who hids his asset in tax havens but expects the tax payers of the US to pay his court costs to protect his assets. It would be nice if he would pay his fair share.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Joseph Stiglitz an economist that do not understand how capitalism works?
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is no such a thing as greed, it is greed that fuels capitalism it is the desired of people to make money with different degrees of need's and in a democratic state laws deal with excesses.
How do you define greed Stiglitz? Is a very subjective value Stiglitz you do not know what you are talking about? What are the limits? Every think the vulture found did was legal they make money from corrupt countries like ARGENTINA Stiglitz don't you know that a vulture found perform a service to the economic system, in a way they police the corrupt banking and corrupt leaders like Cretina who refuse to pay the previous corrupt government obligations so she can grab more assets from the people of Argentina.
But at the end she will pay because she is being investigated at the personal level by the vultures they did the same thing to the corrupt leader of Congo and he pay at the en 90 million dollars on the bond that the vultures got for 10 million and that was peanuts compare to the 1.5 billion bonds from Argentina Cretina is stupid like the article in the Brazilian newspaper assert, the vultures will confiscate all of her personal assets under the RICO act, this is a law in the us that will deal's with her ill-gotten wealth.
Poor idiot paulcedron, watch your blood pressure!
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I live on an island, and you live on a much smaller island, South America, un pocito de tierra.
I call you a poor idiot, because as a poor idiot you jump to false conclusions.
I love it how many of the posters here are pro vulture, in the false sense of hope that some of Singers wealth will trickle down to benefit them some how. This would not be happening if it wasn't for the holdouts greed.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 58 Klingon
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you are wrong. The thing is, that however morally wrong the hedge funds may be, the law supports them because of various Argentine governments' irresponsible behaviour.
Would you accept lending money to someone, and they told you that they had wasted the money so they would not repay you - or you might get less than a third of your money.
If you think that is fair, I want to borrow a million dollars from you - and return only 30 percent of your money, nothing if you wouldn't accept the 30%.
“Paul Singer is a typical vulture who hids [sic] his asset in tax havens but expects the tax payers of the US to pay his court costs to protect his assets. It would be nice if he would pay his fair share.”
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. First of all, why are you so concerned about U.S. taxpayers subsidizing “courts costs” to protect his assets?
And if you're so concerned about it, why don't you complain to the deadbeat government of Argentina to repay the debt it undertook when it went begging to creditors, hat in hand, for a few billion dollars here and there (e.g., the New York law bonds)?
2. How much, exactly, is Singer's “fair share”?
Is it more than the 30 cents on the dollar that the defaulting government of Argentina managed to cramdown the throats of 92% of bond holders because they did not have the time, patience and resources (money) to litigate this massive 2001 default in the U.S. Courts, applying well-settled New York contracts law, with proper venue in the U.S. Southern District of NY (SDNY)?
Remember, it is the serial defaulter that threatened bond holders with “take it or leave it.” 92% took it (right up the poop chute), whereas NML, Singer et al. said “we'll see your deadbeat carcasses in SDNY.”
As for me, I AM a U.S. taxpayer with absolutely NO personal/financial interest in this litigation except for the fact that I am a (small) investor. I will gladly take my gains along with my losses, but I will not abide a CHEATER, and that is exactly what Argentina is.
And lest you bring up the poor peasant populace suffering b/c of others' actions/inactions, they are the ones that continue reelecting pompous, arrogant politicians that resort to name calling (e.g., “vultures”), rather than ones that are willing to tighten the belt, develop a budget and quit going to outside creditors to fund the country's socialist programs.
You want to give away money to the poor? Fine. Just don't expect others to fund your own give-aways.
MoD
40 Arg was all the year 2001 in economic crisis, inestability and getting into an obviously default. The corralito year.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why would you buy a bond knowing those circunstances????
Now the vultures are the poor victims.
We need a new financial center. New rules. That specially helps countries in those conditions.
Bottom Line:
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentinean people will suffer due to the K-Gang economic mismanagement.
Why do they continue to elect such people?
With every investment comes a risk.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is akin to someone buying a stock then crying when thee price goes down.
I wish I could go to court and demand a full payout on every investment I made that I lost money on.
@60
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0why would you buy a bond knowing those circumstances?
Easy
1) those selling to the “vultures” wanted justice but knew they were too small to get it
2) those “vultures” knew that they were legally in the right, they just need to follow the painful process
3) so, rather than accept Argie-lands ultimatum, the true holdouts sold their debt to the vultures to ensure justice was done
And it has been.....yay
92 % arrived to an arrange, you say, an accord, and is being payed. The money isthere to pay them.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The others ones, speculatives, bought very cheap, dont accord, and only wants the US justice to declare default (Pollack said it was) and try to gain more than 1.600 % profits.
What justice is that??
62. You could absolutely go to court and win if you have a valid signed contract that the other party is failing to live up to.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least in a legitimate country.
@52 It was hard to figure out who to reply to here, but you'll do Andy35. You asked why this piece was posted on a news site.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now here's the point that everyone is missing because this Stiglitz commentary is just a part of a larger piece published in the NYT yesterday. It's about fairness.
The times published a debate on the fairness of Griesa's decision to prevent Argentina from paying it's debt to the non-hold out creditors. There were seven other contributors to the debate, two Argentine economists among them. Six debaters, Stiglitz chief among them, asserted that the decision was not fair. Two debaters ignored the central issue of preventing payment on the debt and asserted that Argentina paying full bore to the hedge funds was fair. One of those two debaters in favor of the hedge funds even went so far as to start out by making his own definition of fairness (he conflated fair with legal) because he was uncomfortable about discussing fairness in the first place.
Now, like all the rest of you here, I am not an economist and therefore not qualified to judge any of these debaters as economists. As a simple English teacher, however, I do feel qualified to judge the debate. Despite the substandard English of one of the Argentine debaters, I called it 6-2 for the Stiglitz side.
Try reading the entire piece in the times and see what you think. Was it fair or was it not? I suspect that some of you may read the full text and see what I am talking about and still not accept the verdict in this debate. To avoid acceptance of the verdict you will have to decide that fairness is irrelevant and just doesn't matter. Undoubtedly, this is what compelled Griesa to make his decision and this is the type of thinking that Stiglitz and his allies scry in the debate.
NYT: Is it fair to make Argentina choose between defaulting and paying some of its past creditors in full?
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/08/01/the-justice-of-argentinas-default
It's not aboout 'fair' it is about Contract Law. Don't enter into a contract if you can't pay your end. Life ain't fair.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't cry for me Argentina, because I won't cry for you. Especially when you don't pay your debts and therefore hurt your own people.
Fair? Just pay your debt. That is fair.
@67 If I understand you correctly, you are saying you don't have to read the debate. Your mind is already made up and, like the minority debaters, you think fairness doesn't really matter. Is that correct?
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Too bad. I thought you were a nice person.
Anybody else?
Maybe the UK should have told Ireland to just pay it's debts and let them sink...instead of bailing them out....
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Contract Law.....maybe nobody should ever get a mortgage for a home..how many ordinary folk have lost their jobs and then lost their home....
..after all...“...don't enter into a contract if you can't pay your end. Life ain't fair.”
...tut tut ....and tut...
Fairness is a very scary concept. It is a word used by Marxists/Communists/Socialists try to affect change in a Society.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Because how can anyone be against fairness?
It is sickening.
Makes my skin crawl.
@68
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Whether or not I am a 'nice person' is purely subjective and your opinion of myself is irrelevant.
As for 'minority debaters' I have do not know what you mean. What exactly is a 'minority debater'? Do you mean that you believe fewer people agree with you and therefore their opinion is less relevant?
Hardly a good arguement really.
Perhaps you have not read the wider debate across many sources, as I have.
'fairness doesn't matter'?? The Law matters. In this case New York law matters. The place where the Argentine Gov. CHOSE to establish the contract.
If I CHOSE to enter into business with a Gov. or or business and WE BOTH CHOSE to abide by the Law of the place where the Contracts are agreed, then I expect the other party to abide by this.
Fairness? That was already established. Contractually. End of story.
I have no issue with the Argentine people. however they are ultimately responsible for the people that govern them.
Hopefully this will give them pause for thought.
The question is flawed because there is a fallacy in fairness. Economist Thomas Sowell wrote about this...you could read it on the net, its in 4 parts. Fairness as equal treatment does not produce fairness as equal outcomes (Sowell).
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thats why we have contracts. Investors don't care about fairness.
@72 Excellent point.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Business is not about this esoteric ideal of 'fairness', it is about profit. If you are crap at business, you lose out. If you borrow money you must pay the debt. If you sell government bonds that maybe bought by third-parties, that is what you agreed to when you sold them. Otherwise write your contracts differently. Don't complain after the fact.
Of course business practices should be governed by laws otherwise people would get ripped-off by shysters and liars, such as the Argentine Gov. who do not believe in honouring contracts.
The Argentine Gov. is breaking the very laws that they signed up to.
They deserve punishment.
...ilsen is coming out with some gems tonight.....;-)
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I have no issue with the Argentine people. however they are ultimately responsible for the people that govern them.”
Sooo....what proportion of the UK people voted for a Conservative Govt...?
Something like 35%
Sooo...65% of the UK electorate weren't responsible for the people that govern them......
@70 One of the debaters, Johnathan Macy, a Yale Corporate Law Professor, made a point similar to yours. He called fairness “a squishy concept”. So neither he nor you nor Judge Griesa seem capable of discussing fairness.
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@71 I didn't mean to hurt your feelings and by minority debaters, I meant Professor Macy and Mr. Hung Tran who both asserted that legal and fair were the same thing. If you read the entire debate, you might understand my comments better and you might begin to see that there is something more to this issue than simple, end of story, legal contractual principles. When you say things like,“I have no issue with the Argentine people.” that leads me to believe you could be a nice person so I continue to urge you to take time to read the debate and thoughtfully consider the possibility that fairness might at issue here.
Yes, RG is a serial defaulter (deadbeat). Your credit is no good. RG, you must now pay with cash. What? You have only pesos? What can I do with your pesos?
Aug 02nd, 2014 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 071
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0mrs ilsen: “I have no issue with the Argentine people. ”
what?
lol
LOL
@74 Voicey, you continue to be utterly tiresome, so I will continue to ignore your 'whatabouttery'. I thought you people were ever so keen on 'revolution'?
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0@75
Thank you for your consideration of my feelings but there really is no need. I don't come here to make friends. Equally, I certainly don't need to seek your approval.
However, I have always been clear that I would absolutely love to see the downfall of the current Argentine Gov and if Mr. Singer can help facilitate this, then so be it.
Whinging about 'fairness' is ridiculous when the reality of what the K-gang has done to Argentina now has to be faced up to.
They have lied and cheated, both at home and abroad. They are corrupt and must go.
How have they been 'fair' to the Argentine populace? Be careful of these words...
Unfortunately the people will pay the costs incurred by Cristina. I wonder how 'fair' they will feel that is when the lights go out.
75. Before I answer your question please let me know who should decide what is fair?
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Me?
And if not Me why not?
Poor ilsen...he doesn't even know why he hates Argentina...he just thinks it's the proper Anglo thing to do....
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is it the Falklands...I think not, the people of the Falklands are about as alien to him as Yanks are, some of them may have had a common heritage 180 years ago, but that can be said of a lot Yanks also.
The people of the UK owe those islands nothing, they chose their path....
Get off the bandwagon ilsen and stop being a bigoted oaf the people of Argentina have done nothing to you....
Maybe you should see a psychiatrist to help you understand your unwarranted and illogical hate....
If Singer didn't offer what could be considered a 'fairer' deal than Argentina, then how did he any up with any bonds?
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Simply because a large proportion of bondholders bent to the will of Argentina just not make Argentina's position just or 'fair', therefore holdouts are not being 'unfair' to make a stand (or sell the bonds on to a third party powerful enough to fight Argentina).
Maybe if, instead of acting like the big man, Argentina acted fairly when it considered itself in a position of power, it might not keep getting kicked in the nuts.
@78
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fake Polish @75 encourages me to read this debate in The Times but already dicounts part of it and conflates this part into discounting both Judge Grieseas' legal ruling and your opinion too. hmm... So why bother?
YBoy, will Mr. Singer be able to reposess Argentine holdings/property in London? What is your take on this?
@76
Oh look, paulie has popped up with absolutely nothing to contribute to the debate as usual.
Polly, darling, true “I have no issue with the Argentine people. ”
You can come and wash some of my cars anytime, just not the Mercedes. I prefer a European who understands how to apply the wax professionally. I hope you understand.
Oh dear - Yankee B giving investment advice and forecasts after all the money he has lost in Argentinian real estate over the years - well I suppose there is a new gringo sucker born every day.....
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:44 am - Link - Report abuse 081. I don't see why not. They're in the process of looking through the Arg assets now. There are plenty.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0If they don't settle soon the attachments will start all over the world
at least in the civilized world
@ 79 multiple name Voice (the/A etc)
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Poor ilsen...he doesn't even know why he hates Argentina...he just thinks it's the proper Anglo thing to do....”
Do you actually read the posts here before kicking off?
At least paulcdron bothers. eg:
“71
mrs ilsen: “I have no issue with the Argentine people. ”
what?”
So other posters actually quote my opinion, you twunt.
You always bring in the Falklands or the UK when I have not mentioned them, simply because you have nothing to contribute. Sad, inadequate old man.
Your are getting boring. Time to retire I Think.
Tosser.
I would like to know, from any posters here, what is the position re: Singer/Argentine holdings in the UK, anyone have any info on this?
Thank you.
This yank judge is an idiot. An English judge will give us bond holders justice in the English court case.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0@85 Hepatia/(fake british) bomber
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 01:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0You never answered my question, (on another thread), as to whether you are British born or a naturalised immigrant.
Either-way, you do swear allegience to HM Queen Elizabeth II?
Please state if you do, or do not.
Thank you.
PS: What is you authority/sources do you have on an opinion as to how the independedent British Judiciary will react to a US Contractual Law Case?
Really, what do you know that the international media haven't mentioned yet?
I am interested to get your full and frank opinion and FACTS on this.
Stiglitz is basically an apologist for countries like argentina who default on their loans. Like the other argentine supporters, he attacks the competency of the US courts, “find a sympathetic judge who did not understand what was at issue and rule in their favour.”
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 01:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0He uses emotive arguments that hide behind “complexity of markets” and “fairness” which ignores the hard facts of financial markets, the people who put their money in are doing it for profit! They are not into charity.
Besides, what is fair about hard working moms and dads being given a take it or leave it deal, that involved losing 70% of their investment, when argentina defaulted on its debt? The arrogant way that argentina tried to hide behind its 'sover-en-ity' and adopt a 'too bad, so sad' attitude is the genesis of its current difficulties.
Notwithstanding the hand ringing from the bleeding hearts and to clever by half excuses from people who should know better, the facts are simple:
Argentina borrowed billions of dollars from investors around the world and squandered their money.
Since defaulting on its loans, argentina has done everything in its power to avoid its legal and ethical responsibilities to repay the debt.
Argentina has been pronounced by a court of law as a loan defaulter with all the dead beat nation connotations that go with that finding.
@8&
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Agree with you. No one can truly argue with what you have said. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
@83 - you are correct to an extent. They will be able to attach assets but wil first need to get the english courts to regognise the ruiling. Shouldn't be difficult but will take more time.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0@62 please go away and understand the difference between debt and equity. A bond gives you a contractual right to your principal and intetest. Equity does not. That is probably why your investments have gone to shit. Because you don't even understand the basics of what you are investing in. You retard...
Stiglitz is making the point that there is no debt restructuring for nations as for business. Businesses go bust all the time all over the world. No incentive would exist for anyone to get back on their feet if they new any subsequent successful business would be liable for a failed business venture in the past. Nations led by yes, criminals and morons that default , will leave a legacy of disincentive to future generations to climb out of the hole they have been born into.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 04:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thus exacerbating inequality.
@86
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 05:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0I didn't answer because I didn't see it. I don't read your stupid comments. I have already told you that I don't know hepatia and I don't know what you are talking about. You are an idiot. We British are born free. We don't have an in British committee like you yanks. We don't have to swear all the time. We are not slaves to our bankers like you yanks are to robber baron singer. He has broken English law.
“Besides, what is fair about hard working moms and dads being given a take it or leave it deal, that involved losing 70% of their investment”
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 06:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0What is fair about millions of retirees and younger people nvesting in General Motors stock and seeing it drop to cents, and then when new GM stock was issued, they didn't get to swap it?
WHY DON”T THEY GET TO SUE?? WHY DON'T THEY GET TO ASK FOR NEGOTATIONS, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE COMPANY THEY INVESTED ON ACTUALLY STILL EXISTS???
WHAT IS FAIR ABOUT THAT YOU VERMICULAR MORON?????
Voice
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 07:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are thick....proper thick
The UK people are not governed by the Conservatives, they are governed by a Conservative:LibDem coalition, these constituencies represent over 50% of the electorate and over 50% of the constituencies.
However, it is possible under the first past the post system, to govern with fewer than 50% of the vote. Both Labour and the Conservatives have done this. This is because the British people in a huge majority supported the first past the post system in a referendum.
Therefore, absolutely, the British people are responsible for their government. Sadly, even when it is a one-eyed ludicrous Scottish socialist like Brown.
Hopefully, next month you will have your Freeeeeeeedom, to get the government you deserve.....or probably not eh Voicey? Looks like you might just be left wanking off to Mel Gibson again....or having fantasies about pensioners....hehehe
Perhaps that other Voice poster will turn up and make you look a knob again....could use a laugh, at you, AGAIN
There are a lot of very upset and emotional Argentines posting on this thread. Throwing a hissy fit is not going to alter the facts. Your government has created this crisis by not negotiating. The hold-outs were willing to make a deal - as is their contractual right - but Kicillof and crazy CFK preferred to play arrogant and ignorant to the home crowd.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 07:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0That some posters on here do not even know the difference between bonds and shares is astonishing. That some posters think their government should enter into contracts and then decide they won't honour them because they don't want to is O.K. is also short term thinking. Do any of you think about long-term consequences?
This is not the battle of one rich investor against poor little Argentina. That so many Argentines think it is shows how effective the K's brainwashing really is. Argentines, your government is lying to you (again). When CFK has gone off to enjoy all the money she stole from you, you will be left in the shit. Why are you not directing some of your emotional anger at her?
@92
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 07:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is there a difference between STOCK and BONDS? Please explain.
@92
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 08:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0I like the comparison with General Motors.
General Motors went into bankruptcy, and we're bailed out by the US government, and for a time were owned by the US Government, all the leadership team went in disgrace. The company was then offered to a new set of owners, with an opportunity to run it better.
I would FULLY support:
Argentina going into bankruptcy, being bailed out by the US government, and for a time being owned by the US Government, all the leadership team being executed in disgrace. The country then being offered to a new set of owners, with an opportunity to run it better.
We live in hope.
Surely it's a matter of debt repayment.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Aregenia has been trying to control the debate with dispariging langauge, calling the legitimate purchase os debt vultures.
The Judge has looked at THE LAW, and told Argentina it must pay off ALL the debt, not just the debt Argentina likes.
So Argentina starts a camapign of criticisimng the Judge and the judge appointed mediator.
You do have to wonder about the stupidity of Argentina
@94 ElaineB Very succinct! Spot on!
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 08:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is in good(?) company, viz:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7170e224-c897-11dd-b86f-000077b07658.html#axzz39Jel8bb0
93
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Troy Tempest's puppet...you only ever appear when he is not around...
You stupid fcuk...the large controlling party forms a coalition with the small party to give them the majority of seats and effective control of the Govt..
Conservatives and their policies control the UK..not Lib-Dem, not Labour....and the fact remains and is usually common THAT a Country is usually run by a Govt. that the majority of the people didn't vote for!!...
Thus rendering Ilsen's remark irrelevant. stupid and a pathetic attempt to excuse his irrational, racist and bigoted Hate of Argentina....
What's your excuse puppet...?
All polictricians everywhere indulge in propaganda which distorts the truth to some degree. The present odious government of Argentina has turned distortion into a fine art, with its noxious Falklands campaign as the principal distraction. Vivenza Criolla is admired in Argentina. When you purchase any bonds you are taking a risk and the vultures knew this. This battle has been fought out in court. CFKs refusal to budge an inch will unfortunately rebound on many ordinary Argentinians prolonging their impoverishment. There is no better future for Argentina in prospect, its beans for tea for the next 20 years at least.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Most of the Holdouts are “before default buyer”, who have bought their
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 09:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0bonds at an average of 100% or even higher. That is why we cannot accept similar offers as they were in 2005 and 2010.
And as NLM also quite often publicly said, they have bought many of their papers also before Default, at a price of 100% and higher.
ARGENTINA SHOULD HAVE ONLY GIVEN A SIGN, A PROMISE TO JUDGE GRIESA / MEDIATOR POLLACK AND THE HOLDOUTS, THAT IT WOULD NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH AND IT WILL FULFILL THE COURT ORDER (EXTENDED TO ALL HOLDOUTS) AND REPAY THE DEBT TO THE HOLDOUTS, AFTER THE RUFO CLAUSE EXPIRES IN DECEMBER 2014.
THEN THE HOLDOUTS WOULD HAVE SURELY ASKED JUDGE GRIESA TO REINSTALL THE “STAY” UNTIL JANUARY 1, 2015.
IT WOULD BE SURELY ADVISABLE FOR ARGENTINA AND THE HOLDOUTS TO CONTINUE WITH NEGOTIATIONS.
@99, so now I am racist and bigotted because I have an opinion about the Arg Gov? You only make yourself look more foolish by coming out with comments like that.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0oh, btw, why keep deflecting with comments about the UK Gov? This is not about them, in case you hadn't noticed. You might as well be banging on about the Japanese or Greek form of Gov...
@101
Shouting doesn't make your points any more relevant. Such as they are....
I hear the nasty dirty Marxist that is the current Ambassador to the USA from Argentina is placing advertisements spouting the same nonsense as the the lithium soak Prez and the dimwitted Austral Elvis.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0She better be careful if she wants to keep being welcomed in the USA.
These nutty regime is treading on think ice.
I hope they don't ever expect the USA to vote on their side again, remember we control IDB WB IMF and just about everything else in the world one way or the other.
Silly fools always take one step too many and then its too late to turn back.
#92 nigel (and others)
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Emotive commentary and personal insults from argentine supporters on this issue reflects badly on the poster and is an indication of their state of mind. They are in the wrong and they know it. By its own mismanagement of the default issue, argentina has got itself into a sorry predicament. Instead of delusion, denial and inane excuses, what is needed right now is a bit of honesty. Argentina needs to honestly appraise its predicament, face up to the mistakes and engage with the stakeholders in a constructive way. A modicum of humility would not go astray either!
As has been pointed out by other posters, at the present time, there is no debt restructuring arrangements for nations as there is for business, so this is too bad for Argentina. However, given Argentina’s track record of belligerency towards other nations and their reluctance to abide by the accepted rules and norms governing international dealings, they may not agree to utilise this remedy anyway.
There is a stigma attached to loan defaulters, they tend to be regarded as dead beats. However if the debtor makes an honest attempt to come to terms with the situation and pay back the debt, they can redeem themselves. This also applies to Argentina, the world is prepared to give countries a break provided they are honest, face up to their situation and attempt to make restitution. This could be a turning point for Argentina, it can use this crisis as an opportunity to redeem itself in the eyes of the world, or it can continue along its present destructive path of delusion, denial and blame shifting and sink deeper into the abyss.
Noted that 'Mr Angry' got back from the caber tossing even more angry than usual, revealing more and more of his warped vile bile and exposing his inability to grasp facts. Argentina needs a radically different government that can lead the country down a wiser path like Mrs T did for Britain years ago. People got hurt, there were many wrongs, but ultimately it succeeded. Can Argentina reform itself?
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 11:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0104
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 11:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Emotive commentary and personal insults from Vulture supporters on this issue reflects badly on the poster and is an indication of their state of mind......
When anyone goes into debt and cannot pay it do they...
A) Declare themselves Bankrupt.
B) Come to some arrangement where the creditor at least gets some of their money back....
C) Not pay anything....
Which one is the responsible option to take...?
Bearing in mind a Country cannot take option A....
Also bearing in mind that creditors almost always lose money in these situations.
If a Country was capable of being able to afford to pay 100% of the creditors 100% of the money owed it wouldn't have defaulted in the first place.....
How a company is able to make a profit from a Sovereign default is questionable to say the least....
Stop blindly supporting Vultures that make money from other peoples misery and mistakes....
@106
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Most companies and governments LEARN by their mistakes but not Argentina. If I was to invest is stocks and shares and I lost money that is my fault as you know the stock goes up and down. If i invest in bonds and told that I would get lets say 5% and the bonds are safe as in Argentinas case ( then why would I not invest in bonds ) Argentina STOLE billions of US$ from investors around the world, it is now time to man up.An investigation into the missing money would be a good way of apportioning blame.
105. Argentina can reform itself but it may take centuries. Argentina has only been around a few hundred years and a nation only since the 19th century. The Brits under Thatcher and beyond had already put together that magnificent charter The Magna Carta in 1215.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Stop blindly supporting Vultures that make money from other peoples misery and mistakes….”
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mistakes? The K's didn't make a mistake. They mismanaged the economy, stole from innocent Argentines and cocked-up the negotiations causing the current misery.
No one is supporting 'vultures”. There are no vultures other than the winged variety. Stop playing the victim and hold your government accountable.
On a very basic level this all reminds me of an Argentine girl I know who borrowed money from a bank in the form of a credit card. She maxed out the card on what I consider frivolous purchases. She has no dependents and is healthy, though a little work shy. She was complaining to me one day that the bank called her every day about her debt and it was making her miserable. I told her that as long as she had a pulse they would continue to call her and she should start making payments. She claimed she couldn't afford it but she could afford to pay a therapist three times a week, so it was more a case of not wanting to pay. I explained debts don't just go away if you ignore them - as she tried to do - and offered to go with her to her bank to negotiate a repayment schedule she could afford, possibly even reducing the debt. She didn't want to do that because she didn't want to pay any of it.
On a later visit I helped her get a full time job which after three months she reduced to part-time because 'working full time is tiring'. But she did start making repayments. She complained bitterly about the interest but still she was making payments.
On a later visit I discovered she talked her boss into paying her debt and her paying him back - there was some tax avoidance involved - but he did it.
On a later visit she had left the job and left him with the debt.
She had no guilt about it.
109 .
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you know any other nationalities that are work shy and have maxed out a credit card on frivolous rubbish? Maybe even robbed a bank?
@110 Of course, there are people in other countries that are frivolous with money and don't want to pay the money back. I don't personally know any but for sure they exist.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The point of the story was to illustrate that debts, personal or sovereign, do not just go away. The debt collectors are doing a job. The people you borrow from have the law on their side. But, you can negotiate and often reach a reasonable agreement, even reduce the debt, and start to build good credit again. Standing outside a bank that gave you a credit card and calling them names , and refusing to sit down to discuss a repayment schedule, doesn't solve anything.
It's a metaphor then? Argentina is the infantile girl , lazy and nuerotic whose irresponsibility borders on the delinquent.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 01:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0118:
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes.
115
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did you meet her at the airport or was it.....(insert name)....restaurant...?...;-)
Oh deary me Elaine do you ever meet any British women with problems....?
...and the moral of the story is....don't be friends with Elaine, as your life will always be a misery and a metaphor for a Mercopress forum to bash Argentina....
Too right Elaine, too many want to live by the law of the jungle. Its peculiar because they should be able to see where its leading - poverty and exclusion. They need leadership, not being treated like a spoilt child who keeps throwing toys out of the pram and continually whingeing and crying because a close neighbour is having a much better time because they worked for it. A pathetic bunch of serial whingeing losers..
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@120 You are such a child. The story is relevant to the mess Argentina is in at the moment and indicative of the government's attitude.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@121 I guess the girl represented an element in Argentine society that just don't want to take responsibility for their own problems. Sure, they appear in other countries too but rarely do the government and President display the same traits.
112 ThinkVoice
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”When anyone goes into debt and cannot pay it do they...
A) Declare themselves Bankrupt.
B) Come to some arrangement where the creditor at least gets some of their money back....
C) Not pay anything....
Which one is the responsible option to take...?
Bearing in mind a Country cannot take option A....
Also bearing in mind that creditors almost always lose money in these situations.
If a Country was capable of being able to afford to pay 100% of the creditors 100% of the money owed it wouldn't have defaulted in the first place.....“
Sure,
Argentina chose B, but only on Argentina's terms, ”accept 30%, or nothing“.
30% of a LOAN that Argentina PROMISED to pay back at a set rate.
Those who did not reluctantly accept the huge losses, received solution C - NOT PAY.
That's called bullying, not negotiation.
Now, Argentina is REFUSING to pay back a total outstanding debt that is a mere fraction of what they borrowed.
Argentina has now effectively chosen option A
Citing that they are UNABLE to pay, Argentina is having assets seized, by Court Order.
Misery and hardship?
How about the pensioners who LOANED Argentina money, and were intimidated into accepting less than 30% of it back?
All because of deliberate mismanagement and theft by the K's and pals.
Who do YOU support, Mr. ”I'm just a voice” ?
Poor A-hole/Voice
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It really is too much for his wee Scotch-addled brain to comprehend....so he rants like a drunk Scottish tramp shouting at passers-by in the street.
Firstly, for your homework A-hole, look at the list of legislation the Lib-dems claim to have influenced in the past 4 years (e.g. Increase in income tax free earnings)
Look at the number of times the Libdems have voted with Labour against the Tories (e.g. Electoral reform to 600 equally sized constituencies).
Look at the Libdems in senior cabinet positions (Nick Clegg, Vince Cable, Danny Alexander)
All apparently nonsense according to your wee scotch pea-brain.
Secondly, and by massive majority, the use of the first past the post system was endorsed by referendum, so it is in fact in the UK the will of the people that a government can be formed with fewer than 50% of the vote.
So, yet another debate where youve made yourself look a cock....as opposed to watching Braveheart trying to take a look at Mels....another favourite pastime of yours.
Oh well, tum-ti-tum....
Good luck in the referendum next month, it will be interesting to see how many bitter Scot Nats are yet again on the losing side...at least it'll fuel their inferiority further.
Beaten up any pensioners recently?
I think this Argentine case is far too special as well as the bad faith from the Ks in unprecedented.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I’m sure Griesa has taken the legal steps to circumscribe the Argentine case in order to not affect any other debt restructurations of other countries.
Everyman and his dog have come on stage to lecture about the verdict. Surely if you borrow money you pay it back, it is not rocket science. They are only quibbling about money, which, incidently I remember CFK say they have plenty.Just pay up and move on.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 083 islen
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“However, I have always been clear that I would absolutely love to see the downfall of the current Argentine Gov and if Mr. Singer can help facilitate this, then so be it.”
it is exactly the opposite, you halfwit.
the government is using and extending this battle against vulture funds because it is politically redituable.
you don't have the slightest clue, you boludo.
do yourself a favour and keep it shut.
123
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for agreeing....they chose option B...the responsible one....
124
Boring...let me take another example...
2005 General Election..Labour won and ran the country with....35.2% of the vote...
Soooo.....65 % of the Country never voted for them...but they still ran the Country...
Easy enough for you to understand...?
Or do I have to keep highlighting how stupid you are...?
What would you know anyway...you are not even a Brit......Puppet....
Hmmm.. Obviously not a good enough piper for the closing ceremony. Not even a proper Scot..
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@126 While defaulting and blaming Griesa has made CFK improve her approval ratings (this is the reason we defaulted in the first place) it will ultimately doom not only herself but the whole country as she will be forced to choose between austerity or hyperinflation (and choosed the latter).
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This article in La Nacion explains very well the current situation
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1715318-verdades-ocultas-detras-del-festin-de-los-patriotas
130
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don’t fall for it. She may gain some numbers now but in a month time they will be back at the levels of June or even worse
“The vultures have invoked the rule of law but we should be clear: This is about greed”, says the Nobel Prize.
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Funny that, I thought it was about getting your money back from someone who took it the loan in the first place and then didn't want to pay it back.
All together now!!! Sing it with the family:-
“Because he knew a thing or two, he thought he knew it all........”
@127
Aug 03rd, 2014 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Redituable Polly? Did mean profitable?
Try to keep it in English, as per the site rules.
Always thinking short-term. The Argentine disease. I was talking medium/long term. Of course kfc will profit politically, maybe this month whilst claiming to be the strong one, 'saving' Argentina from the 'evil' gringo.
Over the next few months, when the lights go out and the truth is revealed, then will come her downfall.
You have to learn to look beyond next week.
Start collecting firewood and stockpiling laundry powder and sugar. You are gonna need it.
Maybe the UK will send more Aid. Just remember to say thank you this time.
To those who lecture about Argentina's supposedly sins: know that, for the first time, the population has representatives who are not bowing to foreign interests.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0We had more than we wanted of those who made good friends with anybody against their own country, those who borrowed without limits while quashing domestic protests, eventually leading the country to its default in 2001-2002.
Now we are dancing a different tango my friends, and all those hateful little trolls better take notice.
Not bowing to foreign interests!
Aug 04th, 2014 - 02:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0And how's that working out?
135 Anglotino
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0“And how's that working out?”
Like it always does for argentina - it ends in the nightmare tango to the tune of: “I did it Myyyy wayyy”.
But that's ok, because its really not there fault and they still have their pride, no foreign interest is going to push us around!
The fact that no one in their right mind will ever lend argentina money again doesn't matter, the government will still have their perks and heated apartments. These morons should be indicted for crimes against their own people.
What a complete disaster is Argentina, all the Latam countries such as Brazil, Venuzuela, Bolivia, Uruguay will no doubt dip their hands in their pockets and bail out Argentina, after all they are brothers , aren't they?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 137 golfcronie
Aug 04th, 2014 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Uruguay will no doubt dip their hands in their pockets and bail out Argentina,”
I do hope NOT, we have given the crooks enough money in the form of electricity, to our detriment, when the dynamo on their bicycle wheel gave up.
The problem is, as usual, 'No Money Pepe' will be tempted to help out TMBOA despite her spurning all his arselicking episodes.
@138
Aug 04th, 2014 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What would PEPE get out of it, surely the Uruguayan population would be affected in their living standard.
A-hole, how thick are you? it must be the mixture of Irn Bru and Buckfast that has addled your already feeble brain.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK electoral system is a first-past-the-post system. During the 2011 referendum this system was supported by 68% of those who voted.Therefore it has a mandate from the people to be the system that elects governments.
So, your premise that when it is applied, it somehow does not reflect the will of the people is ridiculous. I am sorry you are too thick to understand this premise, but then you are a ScotNat which clearly makes you inherantly stupid.
As for me not being British, how funny, I can trace my family back to the Norman conquestand ironically to the Battle of Bannockburn...as opposed to some imaginary pureblood cretin like you, whose DNA appears to have been completely mutated through generation of alcholism and dependancy on Buckfast.
beaten up any pensioners recently, or is that just a sexual fantasy of yours?
Oops !!!
Aug 04th, 2014 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A-hole screwed up on that one, and got his paw burnt by Monkey Magic
LOL !!!!
133 isleñ
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Maybe the UK will send more Aid. Just remember to say thank you this time.”
The uk should pay their HUGE debt with the European Union and with the rest of the world (Argentina included), sooner than later.
Tell them to be grateful with Argentina for all the aid sent during ww2, and PAY!
140
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Troy..Puppest....
So.... did two thirds of the Electorate not vote for the Governing party or what...?
A simple Yes or No will do.....
Still wriggling I see.....
So the fact remains that two thirds of the Country do not support the policies of the ruling party...
Some people are so stupid that they will never get it......
Supporting yourself I see.....the only one...how odd...
Oh dear A-hole
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So the first premise your Buckfast addled screwed up Scotch brain can't understand is that the current government is a COALITION representing more than 50% of the constituencies and the electorate...first time you make yourself look a cock.
The second premise that your pensioner fantasising scotch addled brain can't handle is that the British electorate voted for a FIRST PAST THE POST SYSTEM by nearly 70%. Therefore the results of that system has a MANDATE from the people.
The third premise that your Mel Gibson masturbating, Braveheart wishing Irn Bru slurping brain can't handle is that Troy Tempest and I are completely different posters. Both of us seem to agree that you are a complete penis though.
I don't know why you think that only one person would have that opinion, looking at your posts on here, I struggle to believe anyone doesn't think you are.
Are you family ashamed A-hole? Do they think you are a retarded turd too? Or do they provide you with pensioners to beat up...can't believe you admitted that was one of your fantasies...
What a weirdo....never mind pop the Braveheart DVD in and have a quick fumble, it'll make you feel better.
LOLOLOL....
142
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK is a NET contributer to the EU. Do you get your facts direct from La Casada Rosada you misguided fool.
Prove the UK owes Argentina money. Go on, prove it, rather than inventing bullshit just like your darling Kristina.
How is winter there?
145
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the uk is a chronic debtor to the european union.
prove argentina owes britain money.
go on, prove it, you boludón.
and winter here is great.
sunny, 50% humidity and +/- 19° C.
it is like the summer in little britain or in the islets. but SUNNY.
I never said Argentina owes Britain any money.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just some gratitude and humility. We beat you in 1982 yet we are generous to you. A truly magnificent nation!
We give it to you because we can and you need it.
I asked you to prove what you said. Your claim that Britain owes Argentina for food imports during WWII.
prove that!
Your own Government doesn't think so but you do.
Fool.
How's that default thing working out for you?
144
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sooo.....Troy...was that a Yes or a No...?
...tut tut...can't even answer a simple question....
I'll answer if for you..two thirds of the Country...a huge majority didn't vote for and didn't support a Labour Government....
So to say that the people of a Country is responsible for the policies of their Govt...like in the case of the UK (only a third voted for them) , is absolute rubbish...
now...you are dismissed...close the door on your way out.....
....oook.....
147
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0read a book or a serious article once in a while.
your main source of information is this 4th class tabloid, isn´t it?
here you have one, you burro.
http://www.cepal.org/publicaciones/xml/8/24048/DocSerie29.pdf
148 A-Hole
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Sooo.....Troy...was that a Yes or a No...?”
Yes... you are a complete penis.
Ooo, yer gettin' a bit wound up, ain't 'cha!!
:-D
150
Aug 05th, 2014 - 12:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0...why have two ID's...?
Do you feel liberated with the other ID...I see there is a recurring prevalence for using a certain series of words like masturbating, knob, penis, wanking and cock...what is that all about...?
I reckon everyone can guess...;-)))
151 ThinksVoice
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0”150
...why have two ID's...?
Do you feel liberated with the other ID...I see there is a recurring prevalence for using a certain series of words like masturbating, knob, penis, wanking and cock...what is that all about...?
I reckon everyone can guess...;-)))“
I might ask you the same thing, Think.
Please, tell us what it is all about.
As a shut-in, you have a good imagination it seems. You put it to good use on the HMS Portsmouth threads.
If it makes you feel better, go ahead and talk about it. I'm sure ”Sussie“ or rather, ”Ron”, is listening.
There's a great audience for you.
Just got a email from my grandmother. The yank judge has backed down. Payment going ahead. Maybe future problems but an English judge will fix. We are the ,93%.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0153 BB/ Hepatia
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0“...just got an email from my Grandma... ”
Gosh, she IS clever, and judging by the time you 're writing, she must have been up at the crack of dawn
at 154
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Don't you know how email works. I have told you before that I don't know hepatia I don't know what you are talking about. You yanks are do dumb. Just like your idiot judge. An English judge is going to fix you robber barons. You are not allowed to break English laws.
@149
Aug 05th, 2014 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Have you read the link that you posted ?
jesus, A-Hole is thick.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The SYSTEM by which a government is formed is the first past the post SYSTEM.
This SYSTEM has a mandate of being supported by nearly 70% of the population.
Therefore the government elected by this SYSTEM is representative of the wishes of the people.
WE DO NOT OPERATE A MORE PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION SYSTEM BECAUSE THE PEOPLE VOTED THAT THEY DO NOT WANT ONE.
I am sorry that peabrain doesn't understand that, perhaps if he spent less time fantasising about beating up pensioners, and less time imagining multiple sign-ins...he wouldnt make himself look such a cock
157 MM
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On the other hand, who cares what he thinks.
“Voice” is most likely “Think”, anyway.
Besides that, he says he is not Scottish, but only a disembodied voice that has opinions.
He will not reveal his nationality, or any other affiliations, allegiances, employers, values or beliefs that he has, that may shape those opinions.
His motives for saying the things he does, are very much in question.
In the end, his stated opinions as a “person living in Scotland”, are worthless and irrelevant
However, he has made it clear he is anti-English, anti UK, and has stated that he posts on here with the purpose of annoying people.
He exists here, not to debate, but to argue, obfuscate issues, distract, bait other posters, and ultimately derive attention for himself.
Apart from being well-versed in the obligations of the local Council, whether they are obligated to put in more crosswalks for grannies on the high street, he really knows little about anything.
Certainly, he does not travel - anywhere, it seems.
I seriously suspect he is an elderly “shut-in” with no other source of entertainment than trolling on his computer, and fantasizing about getting 'even' with other pensioners.
I really can't be bothered taking him seriously.
Nobody else should, either.
Whew, I've wasted too much time on him already.
156
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0yes of course.
and you?
no?
you don´t even know 1 word in spanish?
what a pity
@159 paulcedron
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, I have read it all and it does not show that money is still owed.
You have no idea what languages I speak/read.
Pablo niño
Aug 05th, 2014 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0is too lazy to read it.
Also, he is in denial that it might say something contrary to what he is indoctrinated with .
:-)
160 leiard / 161 toy
Aug 05th, 2014 - 05:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0clearly you both don't understand spanish or any other language than english.
anyway, let me explain the article very briefly.
when britain started to pay the debt with argentina, they suddenly declared the inconvertibility of the british pound.
so argentina could not exchange them for dollars.
and britain, as you both probably know, was bankrupt, and the british pound was like toy money.
another british scam and counting
Crying niño
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you really seriously think that the Argentine Government would allow things to go for 70 years, without payment, without an outcry to the ICJ or any other body that would listen?
Britain is certainly not broke now.
Why would you not demand payment now, or any time in the past 70 years, if anything was actually due?
Britain has normal financial and trade relations with Argentina, currently, though how long it will be before Britain withdraws that is unknown.
Obviously, you do not think things through.
You have swallowed the hate-filled propaganda of your government - you are a dupe.
haha toy.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Why would you not demand payment now, or any time in the past 70 years, if anything was actually due?”
what's your knowledge of law / international law/ commercial law?
zero?
nothing?
or none?
it is a “causa prescripta”.
it was another english scam.
what can we do about it?
it is in their genes.
@162 paulcedron
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Clearly you don't understand what you read!
You present false facts - Britain was not bankrupt.
Oh dear! Polly is completely out of his depth again. As always, he starts arguments he can't finish and then just starts screaming insults.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0how sad!
Some one give him a biscuit and some milk and a pat on the back.
Paulie, do you want to get back on topic and talk about debt restructuring, as per the article, or is that too difficult for you?
Go on, suggest a solution if you are so clever and educated. ....
157
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why don't you just admit the Simple fact that a political party and government is Not representative of the voting choices of the nation....
In other words the Government can be elected by 35% of the people.
To state that the actions of a Government is the fault of the people ..when two thirds (the majority) didn't vote for them is ludicrous....
Is that Simple enough for you.....course not...Puppet...
BTW.... AV is not PR there has never been a referendum on PR.....
..but then again how would you know....you are not a Brit...you are Troy....
I see you still like the phallic phrases....
That is very telling.....Count them all in your posts...boy have you got a one track mind.....Come out...you know you want to....;-))
If you were any further in the closet you'd be in Fecking Narnia....;-))
167 ThinkVoice
Aug 06th, 2014 - 12:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are a bore.
....but a Correct bore...;-)
Aug 06th, 2014 - 12:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0:-)))
Aug 06th, 2014 - 03:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Whereas you are completely out of the closet Voicey...admitting to masturbating to men in skirts, and fantasising over a sado-masochistic relationship with Conqueror.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0I mean, what a weirdo.
As I have repeatedly told you, I am more british than you...all of my known ancestors are british tracable back to the 11th century...whereas you just claim to be a pure-blood, when clearly from your posts you are a mutant.
Never mind, with your “muscles on top of muscles” you could probably “punish” Conqueror with whatever fantasy you had planned...sicko.
Question (YES OR NO)
Did 68% of the UK electorate vote in a referendum to support the first past the post system?
Poor Voicey...I know its complex, but try to keep up.
The “Lady” doth protest too much ..methinks.....
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0172
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0is that it, witless fool?
...did you forget which Identity to answer in....;-))
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0...didn't want to bore you with...“Did 68% of the UK electorate vote in a referendum to support the first past the post system?”.....NO!!
...only 41% of the Electorate voted...so actually about 30% overall.....
174 droning voice
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0nothing on at the Odeon Ayr, tonight??
Oh, right... need someone to push your bath chair - not getting out much.
:-(
Too late.....PMSL.....Gotcha!!.....
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Should only have one ID...then you can't make that mistake....
There is no recovery from that...don't even try...;-)))
176 drone
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0what are you on about???
Haha...talk to the hand.....
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Shaggy.....“it wasn't me”....;-)
178 drone
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0if you think you have something - I'd love to hear you explain it.
Please, tell me, was I not “Canadian” enough for you?
:-D
Troy
Aug 06th, 2014 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Apparently Voicey is so unbelievably stupid he thinks we are the same poster.
However, as we know, he is as wrong about that as he is about all the other ludicrous rants he spews over these forums.
Never mind...poor stupid Voicey, he will have to satisfy himself with his odd fantasies about Conqueror.
Silly Silly Voicey, impotent and stupid.
hahahahaahahaaha still laughing as to how that other “voice” poster made him look such a fool, that was hilarious!
180 MM
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0oh, he's too clever for his own good
=)
I chided him for being witless.
He leapt to the conclusion that I was you - er, you were me... Or something profound.
Try googling “Cinemas Troon” and see if you don't come up with “Odeon Cinema Ayr”. I did.
Them there is knowing too much about Scottish politics, or was it too little, or I sound like you, or too British to be me, or something...
Not sure about his fascination about male genitalia, he seemed to like repeating “penis ” - oops !!! There, I've gone and done it now myself - I must be a homosexual... gosh, no... !
Well, I'm sure he'll be along forthwith and can explain how he arrived at his conclusions - he does appear to laugh a bit hysterically though, and he is a bit befuddled... doubtless we'll hear he's being oppressed or he's revolting, or some such thing.
Well, cheerio, I'm off...
;-))))
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0.....there is no recovering from your blunder...exposed by the one and only.....
Bom bom bom......Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I'm gonna get you, too
Another one bites the dust....ho hum...;-)
#155 when is it going before an English judge to be “fixed”?
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are Argentina’s Call For An Insider Trading Investigation Unfounded?
Aug 06th, 2014 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/argentinas-call-insider-trading-investigation-unfounded/
“If I were the President of Argentina, I would stand firm and I would not pay...
Aug 06th, 2014 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I were sitting in the High Court of Global Justice, I would probably exercise the Wisdom of Solomon and cut a hedge fund manager in half.....”
http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2014/08/argentina-vs-vulture-funds-dont-bet-on-wall-street-winning/
:-)))))) There is a reason I luuuuuuuuuuuv Zuid-Afrikaners....., even Asset Managment Chief Investment Officers as Andy Canter....
@182....or in your case Voicey
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BUM BUM BUM...another one bites the pillow
Imagining it's Mel, imagining its Mel
Another one bites the pillow.
Beating up pensioners, it's your thing
another one bites the pillow....bum bum
Yer freak.....lol.
“Muscles on top of muscles”
“I want to beat up a pensioner”
“I get excited watching Braveheart....Freeeedom”
Oh dear Voicey.....hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha!!!
186 MM
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0oh dear, MM !
What have you done?
Now, the sex-starved old fool will be on here telling us how 'clever' he is.
Still hasn't been able to explain how he 'connects the dots' between you and I.
Never will.
Next, we'll be treated to a rendition of “Lonely” or some blather about Starbucks on Socky-hol Street in Glasgow...
When does the Dole arrive for his regular piss up ??
186
Aug 07th, 2014 - 12:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0You change your name so frequently
You think you're fooling me
First it is a double M
And then a double T
But I'm ready, yes, I'm ready for you
Exposing what you are
The phallic fetish Wannabe
That posts from Canada(r)………..ho hum
Bom Bom…Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Voice, has got you now
Another one bites the dust......ho hum..
As I said, witless - ie. bereft of wit and intelligence
Aug 07th, 2014 - 02:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0boring, though - you 've mastered that one.
Editor/authors:
Aug 07th, 2014 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Henceforth I accept the plaintiffs partisan designation as “vultures”
- - - BUT ONLY IF - - -
the defendents are hereinafter exclusively referred to as “the carrion”.
Thank you in advance for your future adoption of this nomenclature!
Your gringo amigos.
190
Aug 07th, 2014 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I prefer the term, “offal” as there is also a connotation of decaying flesh waste.
Thanks for your consideration.
Indeed Troy...I understand you are posting from Canada...and I'm in the uk....but the dopey moron can't tell the difference.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Still can't believe he admitted to being sexually excited by beating up pensioners....proper weirdo. Then again he's a scotnat so it goes with the territory.
Alex Salmond looked a right moron ?..can't tell the difference between “having the pound” and “currency union”...he's as big a fool and as big a liar as Voicey.
Perhaps another politician should invent a character called Alec Salmond and make him look a complete fool....like “the Voice” did to Voicey....
Hehehehehehehehehehehehe
192
Aug 07th, 2014 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You post exactly the same crap with either ID.....
You should remember which ID you are using to reply to me....in future...
What nonsense are you on about with pensioners.....was this one of your dreams instead of reality...
Show me the post you are talking about...if you can....
This is exactly Troy's MO...just says stuff as though it's a fact then can't prove it.....
Show me the money or STFU......
BTW it was me that made a fool of The Voice....I worked out how he was able to copy me then fixed it so he couldn't copy me.....
Did you work it out.....of course not...you are far too stupid....
You were exposed...you can deny and bleat all you like, and you are bleating....
You are Troy and that's all there is to it.....
I noticed you have dropped all the Phallic references...did I spoil your liberated persona...?
Offal is appropriate but ultimately I must go with “ROTTEN ROADKILL”.
Aug 08th, 2014 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Evis Kissoff and the Rotten Roadkill (featuring Cretina K)
vs.
the Vultures
All hail the vultures.
Your gringo amigos salute you.
192 MM
Aug 08th, 2014 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0I expect things will calm down a bit after the Referendum is defeated.
Good for them to let of steam a bit, and have a serious look at their status.
194 Chronic
I defer to you - I am happy to use either one
:-)
Roadkill...or to Yankee Rednecks.......LUNCH...
Aug 08th, 2014 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Voice
Aug 08th, 2014 - 09:29 am - Link - Report abuse 01) You are a complete penis..(phallic reference), a knob, a cock, etc etc etc
2) I am not troy tempest he is in Canada i am in the UK, if you want these fantasies there is nothing I can do about it...both of us appear to share the total contempt for you.
3) Your opinion is that you made a fool of “the Voice”...I think the vast majority would disagree with you...again an example of your self-love...cant see when someones made you look a penis (phallic reference)
4) You have on various occassions made reference to the fact Conqueror is a pensioner (in your opinion), you also stated that he would be “in big trouble” (if you could find him)”
Oh dear oh dear Voicey fantasising about beating up pensioners youve met on the internet....how embarrassing.
To summarise...Im not Troy Tempest, but we both think you are a cock, The Voice humiliated you, and you fantasise about beating up pensioners...
How embarrassing for you to be completely humilated again and again
Keep repeating the same shit though...it gets better and better......Salmond made a cock of himself didnt he....
LOLLLLLOL
197 MM
Aug 08th, 2014 - 09:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0”2) I am not troy tempest he is in Canada i am in the UK, if you want these fantasies there is nothing I can do about it...both of us appear to share the total contempt for you.“
”To summarise...Im not Troy Tempest, but we both think you are a cock, The Voice humiliated you, and you fantasise about beating up pensioners...
How embarrassing for you to be completely humilated again and again”
Very well put, Sir.
However, I fear you have indulged this lonely, miserable, old fool, far more than he deserves.
All he wants is attention and admiration.
He'll sacrifice his dignity for it, even sing a song.
He's best left alone, I think.
Troy
Aug 08th, 2014 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are right...I should stop “feeding the troll”.
But Voicey is the archetypal Scot Nat, and it is hard to resist laughing at his ignorance, incompetence, humiliation and how he rages at the world.
How he threatens other motorists with his impressive physique (LOL), how he has “muscles on top of muscles”, how he wants to beat up a pensioner he met on the internet, how he raged at a poster who copied his log-in and made him look a fool...its frikking hilarious....time and time again
As you say...he wants attention and admiration...and he gets humiliation and contempt.....hehehehehehehehe
199 MM
Aug 08th, 2014 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As Sid James would say, “ Bah-ha-ha !!!”
Geeeeeeeeeee........
Aug 08th, 2014 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even my favourite decadent American magazine is backing my boy Kicillof and his political boss' s decision..:-)
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/argentinas-rational-default
Is Stiglitz being directly compensated by CADTM?
Aug 08th, 2014 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If this is so - shouldn't he confess this to the press before granting anymore interviews or submitting articles on their behalf?
Everyone seems to be backing your boi, except the rule of law. It generally does not protect deadbeats and scumbags.
Aug 08th, 2014 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DISCREDITING STIGLITZ:
Aug 08th, 2014 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In 2002 Joe wrote in “Implications of the New Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
Risk-based Capital Standard” the following:
“The paper concludes that the probability of default by the GSEs is extremely small.”
A short six years later the quality of Sitglitz's analysis and prediction was put to the test and found wanting.
Stiglitz discredited himself in this most critical of times and bears at least partial responsibility for the Great Recession of 2008 by supplying the U.S. government with a wholly inaccurate assement of the inherent risks of these enterprises.
Shame on you Joe.
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