MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Debt ruling shows a callous disregard to the effects on Argentina
By Eileen Appelbaum (The New York Times) - There is no way to construe as fair the United States court ruling that Argentina cannot pay 93% of its creditors, unless it first pays a small group of hedge funds. It's not fair to the 93% of bondholders who negotiated a restructuring of Argentina’s debt in 2005 and 2010 with reduced payments. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesLife isn't fair Eileen.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0President Kirchner shows a callous disregard to the effects on Argentina.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Actually it's extremely fair and long overdue. This should have been settled years ago. The people in government who have enriched themselves at the expense of the majority of the population need to be bankrupted, and displayed suspended from lamp posts across the nation. However, Maximo may require a bridge for the purpose...
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0@1
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0I agree. That's why in 50 years Australia is scheduled to become unlivable due to climate change. Did you see the report?
Sucks to be you.
I must go to work now, as I am EUian and am slave to the system. Have a good rest of the day.
@4
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0You ought to be Argentinian then, they get paid for sitting on their arses.
If you borrow money you pay it back. It really is that simple.
TTT has a job in Mendoza. Good to hear.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's not fair, It's not fair.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Really simple Argentina trying to control the debate.
They are not Vulture funds but instead prudent investors.
What is still required is for Argentina to pay back what it owes.
The UK leaving the ERM in the '90's was one of the best strategic move.
While the last Labour government were hopeless, while Chancellor, Gordon did stop Tony taking us into the Euro.
The economy is doing pretty well, not the very best in the world but towards the top end.
Perhaps Argentina will learn from this, but I very much doubt it.
I prefer to get paid and be free to enjoy my life and follow my pursuits of knowledge and added value as an individual. I neither want to sit on my arse nor be a slave with no time to enrich my life.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0If you have not noticed I post here at all times of day. Sometimes I go on as little as 3 hours sleep. I study the rest of the day. That's how I am learning so much more than others and at such a rapid pace. It's no rocketry most people have 14-16 usable hours, I have 18-20. Plus I utilize all dead time (in the metro, in a bus, at a queue, etc), to learn. So I literally have twice the hours of others, and in all hours I learn at a faster rate.
Most people would learn a language to a C1 level in 3-4 years, I am learning 6 to such a level in 5 years.
As an American born in NY City, I would hardly consider the NY Times as a source of unbiased information.......it's up there with the Post as only not as much as trash. The Times is the most Liberal paper in the country. It is to the left as the WSJ is to the right. They will post anything and every Economist seems to be coming out of the woodwork like roaches at night. Of course all of these Economists are at schools teaching. What is that old saying .....there are but two people in the world.......teachers and do'ers? Someone once said here that economists are like weatherman in the no matter how wrong they are they still keep there jobs.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0#4 It won't be long before you have your mommy working on her back to support you, because the government is being flushed down the drain by kirchner.
@8 Yes, TTT, you have told us this before only under one of your other names.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0@8
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0How do you get paid for NOT WORKING you said yourself that you are studying all day.? You are a liar Sir.
This is right. The yank judge is Wall St robber baron Singer's terrorist. Taking hostages. The Argies have paid. Now an English judge will rule. Justice. We are the,, 93%.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0it's not fair miss, they are all picking on me!
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0#8 Tobi TIT Troll - you learn all the time? You seem to be an eternal student, a drain on your family, your community, and your country. You contribute absolutely nothing to the world except being a source of amusement to one and all. Learning is not a useful activity, its the actions of a learned person that can becone valuable. What do you want to be when you have grown up?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0What do you do? What are you for? Would anything or anybody miss you if you werent here?
Back to the subject, its Argentina that has shown callous disregard to those who believed in it and helped it out by investing in it through its bonds. This person has a warped mindset similar to the victim mindset that seems to be so prevalent in the Dark Country. Pure hyperbole!
Under other circumstances Apllebaum would have a point but Argentina is a unique case. It is viewed as abusing the system rather than being a victim of it.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0For arguments sake imagine if this had all happened next January when the RUFOs have expired. Does anyone really believe Argentina would be obeying the court ruling and paying the holdout creditors?
Sorry, Eileen. To whom is it “unfair”? Argieland set out to conduct a criminal scam. It never had any intention of paying out as specified in the bonds. How do I know this? Because argieland has been largely composed of lying, thieving, treacherous criminals for decades. And, as it progressed, it continued with its corrupt plans. We can draw a parallel. In 1982, argieland attacked the peaceful territory of a nation. Notice that I said “a nation” not “another nation”. In 74 days they were defeated and surrendered. Just think. Back at the beginning of April, British troops, outnumbered 825 to 1, fought until ordered to surrender. And even then wouldn't allow their weapons to fall into argie hands. In argieland, the populace celebrated in the streets. About their acquisition of a group of Islands to which they had no claim. Did argies learn anything? No. Today we see the same claims. Do we care if the argie government suffers? No. Do we care about the argies of argieland? No. And as for the future. Perhaps a lot of countries will learn that they won't be able to get away with criminal actions. Perhaps they will make more effort to deal with “people” fairly and honestly. But I see that you are an “economist”. You wouldn't like me to tell you what I think of “economists”. Useless parasites that they are.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Back at the beginning of April, British troops, outnumbered 825 to 1, fought until ordered to surrender. And even then wouldn't allow their weapons to fall into argie hands.”
Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Where on earth do you get your data from? Both of these assertions are untrue.
Eileen does make the point that Argentina has both the ability and intent to pay.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0It has been forced into a default.
#17
Aug 04th, 2014 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The answer is“Warlord comics”
18. The only people who forced default were the lithium soaked Prez and the dimwitted Econ Minister.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 12:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There's nobody to blame but yourselves.
So it's not fair to insist that Argentina complies with its CONTRACTUAL obligations? What abject nonsense!
Aug 04th, 2014 - 12:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 018 Lucdeluc
Aug 04th, 2014 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If they'd obeyed the court ruling they wouldn't have defaulted. It's clear that Argentina went to court in bad faith as it has ignored a judgement it lost.
Eileen Appelbaum must be confused then?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@23
Aug 04th, 2014 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Probably she got the information from Christina. If they as suggested they could pay why didn't they?
Eileen, you are sooooo wrong. It is of EXTREME importance to put the rule to the test with Argentina, exactly because the whole debttaking populist governments worldwide are looking on this case. Should Argentina succeed not paying back, it will be the starting shot and invitation to populist governments to lend money and never ever pay back again. It would mean the collapse of the money system.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina MUST suffer, and no excuse is valid. Less the one of it's suffering population, which was the responsible one to enforce all these “Kirchner-regimes”. They must feel the pain, the only way they could learn to vote for responsible and honest goverments and kill that cancer called Personism , as once Chilean Foreign Minister Ignacio Walker called it once in his works: “The legacy of peronism and it's perverse logic” from 2004
Small extract:
In the article, Walker, who was then a political scientist and lawyer, said Kirchner's Partido Justicialista-peronista (PJ), founded by Juan Peron in 1945, showed “fascistic” and “authoritarian” tendencies and had always functioned according to a “perverse logic.” Walker, in an article titled Our Argentine Neighbors, wrote that PJ members, also known as Peronistas, would not respect treaties or contracts “if they would put their popularity at risk.” Walker paraphrased Chilean writer Alejandro Magnet, calling Peronism a movement with “authoritarian, corporative, and fascistic traits.”
“In the end, one of the legacies of the 'Peronist doctrine' would appear to be their ignorance and disregard not only for the most elemental norms of economics, but also for law,” wrote Walker in the May 6 El Mercurio article. “The true wall that arises between Chile and Argentina is not the Andes mountain range, but the legacy of Peronism and its perverse logic.”
This stupid progressive writer uses the term Fair 14 times in the article. She clearly has a biased opinion and is probably a shill for Argentina.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 01:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These idiotic liberals would rather see the rule of law ignored, economic systems and markets collapsed so long their ridiculous concept of “fairness” is meted out.
19 Clyde15 (#)
Aug 04th, 2014 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The answer is“Warlord comics”
Damn, that is a blast from the past.
I could not Topper that, you Whizzer Dandy fellow, you hit the Jackpot.
And certainly got your Chips, Buster.
With all the Action going on right now, would be nice to live in the past say 2000A.D.
Hey 26 Yankeeboy You have a hair in your arse. Maybe years of being by yourself and getting old. Sow this idea . Life is not a business. Griesa an incompetent fool is putting entire financial markets in jeapardy. He should be impeached-quickly. Elliot management should be sacrificed for the good of humanity. Tens of thousands of pensioners and middle class families will suffer economic loss because of Griesa's inabilty to draft a viable solution. Better that one should go than the entire nation go under. Griesas ruling means that many financial corps will probably leave NY so they can escape his simpletons thinking.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So what if Arg pays 92 % of bondholders except vulture funds? Let vulture go down-let them face gravity. People, business' and governments go broke/default everyday-what's the problem-the world goes on. Continental Airlines went bankrupt 2 and it was allowed to continue operating in order to pay off debts and maintain employment. Griesa needs to be investigated by Congress and removed. His cruel and foolish decisions need to be understood by all citizens around the world. As for Elliot Mgmt-they should be encouraged to leave town-they “are not compatible with society.”
Comment removed by the editor.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@28 Thank you, Liberty12, most of what you say here is a bit crude, but generally accurate. Your comment, “Life is not a business”, bears repeating as I suspect that most of the comment contributors here will probably not pay much attention to it. This article and a previous one from Joseph Stiglitz were both about fairness, a concept that is apparently alien and unfathomable to people who believe that life is a business.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They're lashing out at everyone today:
Aug 04th, 2014 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/
They seem to think that Pollack's role was to extract concessions from the holdouts. They seem oblivious to the fact that they lost the case and he was merely employed to arbitrate between the parties to abide by the ruling.
30. You never answered me on the other thread.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who gets to decide what is fair?
Me?
And if not Me why not?
And whom would you suggest?
Fair
snicker
idiot
The RUFO arguement is a red herring.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This clause is only triggered if a voluntary offer is made.
An offer made pursuant to Griesa's judgement and order is involuntary.
More smoke screen from an insincere, serial deadbeat [RG]. If RG had any interest in curing its default it could have petitioned the SDNY for a ruling on this issue. RG isn't interested in the rule of law - U.S. or otherwise. After Jan 1, 2015 RG will manufacture another series of reasons (justification) for non compliance. RG should be permanently excluded from capital markets as this is the only way to protect lenders from their deception and thievery.
They are now trying to blame the fire at Iron Mountain on the holdouts. The rabidity of their reaction will be equal to destruction of the economy. The more they try to bury thier heads in the sand the worse this will get. Anyone want to give me an idea of what the offical and blue rates will be at when I arrive on 16th decembr....?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@33
Aug 04th, 2014 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UK an US are the most deceptive and thieving entities on Earth. Fact. Every day there is a new rigging scandal of world markets out of London and New York. How anyone trust you lot still is beyond me. I would have moved all my operations by now.
And no “catching” the corruption is no justification for the original behavior of corruption. This is a favorite Anglo non-sequitur logical fallacy “well we catch the corruption so we aren't corrupt”.
Classic ridiculous fallacy.
(and for the 10% you catch, 90% get away. So imagine the dissipation and depravity that really goes on in the Anglo financial centers).
(34) Welsh Wizard
Aug 04th, 2014 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 016th December.... huhhh?
My “unqualified” guess would be...:
Black Market Dollar rate...: ~ 13 AR$ for a Dollar...
Official Dollar rate...: ~ 9,5 AR$ for a Dollar...
I'm positive you will remember those rates to throw them at me face in the implausible case I should be wrong...
According to yankeeboy, the peso should have reached 14 to 1 by sometime before June 1st... 2012.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great financial analyst he turned out to be.
Latest economic news from Argentina...:
Aug 04th, 2014 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argie Stock Exchange, up 0.6%
Black market dollar in Argieland, down 0.80%
Paris Club acknowledges and thanks officially for the ~ 600 million dollars deposited in their account by Argieland....
Default...??? What...??? Where...??? Whom...???
@36 not at all. Just interested to see how people think this week play out. The exchanges aren't indicative of how things will go I suspect. This default will be like a long strangulation of the economy rather than a short sharp shock.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@32 Excuse me for not having answered your previous question. I was otherwise occupied.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your question was “Who gets to decide what's fair?”, is that right?
Obviously, the answer is you, Yankeeboy. Since you've already answered the question in my absence and have no interest in entertaining anyone else's ridiculous concept of “fairness” , I doubt that you would be willing to accept any alternative proposals except as an invitation to argue your previously stated point of view.
Fairness may be, as the author of one of the debate pieces suggested, a “squishy” concept. I would have preferred he said ambiguous. Nonetheless it is squishy, ambiguous or ridiculous because it is applied differently and unevenly in every circumstance in which it arises. It is never, as so many of you here would like to believe, strictly legal. Let me give you an example: A car carrying a woman on her way to a hospital delivery room is stopped for speeding. Legally, the officer may feel obliged to write a ticket and warn the occupants that they should have started out earlier. In the interest of fairness, what do you think he should do? Personally, I am confident that any intelligent officer will do the fair and right thing regardless of the laws that he is sworn to uphold. Fairness can and does supersede the letter of the law and it does so by virtue of the good judgement of those whose job it is to see that the law is applied fairly. In this regard, Judge Griesa dies not appear to have the good judgement of the average motorcycle cop. Liberty12 predicted dire global consequences from an unfair decision with good reason. Such unfairness in the application of some legal principle always has negative consequences.
I suppose that if you are only interested in seeing Argentina suffer, then you will think that lack of fairness or injustice are just peachy.
(39) Welsh lawyer
Aug 04th, 2014 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhh...
“A LONG STRANGULATION”..., you say...
Like under the Spanish Inquisition?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI
Chuckle chuckle...
40. Let me give you another example of fairness, In a small town there was a baby born with one eye, one leg, one arm the town elders decided that it was only fair to have every baby born that year to have one eye, one leg and one arm removed so that the children could all grow up equally and of course fairly.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Polaco you are an idiot if you think being fair is also being just.
@42 Arguing with non sequiturs and name calling? Shame on you, yankeeboy. I'm not interested in exchanges at that low a level.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” –Mark Twain
43. I was thinking the exact same thing about you. PSST you started with the non sequiturs not me. You remind me of someone...who is it? Hmm who is it?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here you go Think...btw you left off the bond prices (ooops wonder why?) and the fact that after default every bank, insurance company, Anses would be bankrupt if they were in a legitimate country.
Rosner fears that if negotiations remain at a stalemate, low levels of infrastructural investment, and “aggressive import export tax regimes” that have contributed to the Argentine economy’s malaise will truly begin to cause pain.
“If Argentina continues on her current path,” Rosner wrote, “it is likely that her next economic crisis will look frighteningly similar to the domestic debt crisis of 1989-1991. While few outside of Argentina remember that period and the broad suffering that it caused in the population, most Argentines remember the pain that resulted from July 1989′s 54% currency devaluation, a 200% increase in public service rates, and the countless wage controls and price guidelines.”
Turnip Frederik Bates, realtor from Watchington, USA says at (44)...:
Aug 04th, 2014 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”Here you go Think...btw you left off the bond prices (ooops wonder why?) ”
I say...:
Fred is right...!
I left the bond prices out...
My bad........ Here there are...:
Argie bonds up about 1.5% today :-)))
http://www.ambito.com/noticia.asp?id=752312
25 Man Rod
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Should Argentina succed not paying back, it will the starting shot and invitation to populist governments to lend (perhaps an error? instead of ”borrow”?) money and never ever pay back again. IT WOULD BE THE COLLAPSE OF THE MONEY SYSTEM. “
To be fair, I confess that I seldom found so much interest in so short a paragraph. Self-control, I believe, is highly valued in British education. But when an Englishman loses his temper; spiritually if not vocally , he reveals more than he would like.
To begin with, I may indicate that Argentina IS paying back to more than 90% of its bondholders, on the basis of an agreement that, in the ordinary commercial sphere would have been compulsory with 66,66 % And that our present concern is precisely because we are no longer able to do so, because of the bizarre decision of a senile Judge that blocks the NY Argentine funds. I might also add that 30% of the nominal value, offered by the first Kirchner government, was even more than the 26-27% granted by the new Greek bonds, compulsively exchanged, if I can trust my memory. Ah, but the Argentine default was UNILATERAL...! . So, we MUST suffer....
Now, let us go to the gist: The nocive argentine example may hurt the lender´s interest, but how on Earth IT WOULD MEAN THE COLLAPSE OF THE MONEY SYSTEM...??!!. Here we see no ”perverse logic”, not even logic of any kind, it seems a crazy idea . Let us put before us the most irresponsible and unreliable would-be BORROWERS , whose solvency (material and moral) is too well known to Banks and Funds; who F O R C E S these last to LEND them a single dollar..? And we understand: Up to a certain point, it is a “legitimate ” commercial risk. Beyond it, there are two CRIMINALS at each side of the table. BOTH know that the Debt´s capital is no longer payable (interests eat all). BOTH (the TRAITOR-borrower, and the VAMPIRE-lender) ever draw “fresh” money (ON PAPERS). The people, ignorant. DEFAULT. (=ARGENTINA´S CASE).
(46) Argenfellow
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just for your kind info, Ché...
Mr. ManRod is no Anglo..., he is an hermanito Shileno de allende la cordillera....
And I “Think”... he is a poquíto resentido with us Argies...
Sin otro particular lo saludo cordialmente desde el Chubut...
El Think...
Think......lay out your logic on how you concluded that yb is someone called Fred Bates? Or is that just your version of an insult like calling them turnips?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(48) Captain Poppy
Aug 04th, 2014 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Once upon a time.... there was a poster in MercoPress foolish enough to post his joy over the death of some indigent Argentinean under a cold spell using the same nick he used all over the Internet....
That was Mr. “Fredbdc”...
AKA Mr. Yankeeboy...
Google did the rest....
The Dark Country, what can we say positive about it?
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Erm, arh, just a minute I'll think of something!
I've got it! They are by far the funniest country in the world. Arrogant, egotistical, proud of TMBOA's “won decade”, etc. and they claim all this with a straight face when there is nothing to back it up!
Ha, ha, ha. You just have to laugh.
8 Alistair Nigel (EUian) (#)
Aug 04th, 2014 - 08:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:25 am
Report abuse
I prefer to get paid and be free to enjoy my life and follow my pursuits of knowledge and added value as an individual. I neither want to sit on my arse nor be a slave with no time to enrich my life.
If you have not noticed I post here at all times of day. ”
Is this from China, the EU or Mendoza? Can you actually remember who you are these days?
on topic:
Eileen Appelbaum ? another poverty-stricken leftie academic being paid to come up with an 'alternative' view, for the sake of 'balance'.
Bollocks, big hairy ones. If you asked her for the opposite view, she would probably be amenable...
47 Think
Aug 04th, 2014 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REALLY..?? ARE YOU PULLING MY LEG, THINK..? Well, it¨s not common, after all, for an English-speaking person to jumble “borrow” and “lend”. Thank you very much for your data. FESTIVE ENOUGH , you may believe me. So, we know that ONCOLOGY owes to this Chilean gentleman the discovery of that cancer called “PERSONISM”(sic). A disreputable, authoritarian, fascistic, corporative calamity. Specially in Chile, who has deeply enjoyed that wonderful , broad-minded, human-rights defender and formidable liberal called General Augusto Pinochet. (although rather ill-treated in England). And you say that he appears only a “poquito” resentful towards us??. Well, now I do know when you are REALLY joking. (Retribuyo efusivamente, desde Buenos Aires, sus saludos)
Oh Do Fuck Off Dear. (ODFOD).
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A useful acronym, I find.
@17. are you going to be a prick all your life? The official record shows that argieland sent 66,000 troops. There were 80 British Royal Marines. Although some had been despatched to other British territories. And if you bother with FACTS and videos, you'll find that a number of Royal Marines buried their weapons out in “Camp”. I don't mind you being stupid, but you really should try to make it more difficult to show what an idiot you are!
Aug 04th, 2014 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@23. Of course she's confused. And stupid. But then most “economists” are.
@28. I have a better solution. Destroy argieland. Take everything it “has”. Watch the criminal genocidal populace be exterminated.
@30. Stiglitz is a greedy, grasping conman.
@54 Please describe yourself then. Go ahead We are waiting.......
Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is truly not fair.
Aug 04th, 2014 - 11:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Truly not fair that our neighbours have defaulted.
Not fair that we have tried to work with our neighbours and they resist all help.
Not fair that they have continually enriched themselves during this 12 year period of so-called Kirchner governance.
Not fair that they chose to take the path to default, knowing that it would cause ripple problems for nearby countries, which will be starting soon.
Eileen, they signed contracts, which they fought in court of jurisdiction, and lost.
Eileen, perhaps you think that by taking this approach to Argentina's problems, you will be declared a heroine to the revolution, flown down the BA on Aerolineas Argentinas First Classe, and be given a white and blue striped sash by CFK herself. Don't bet on it.
Life can be so unfair when you are dealing with Peronist inbreds and buck-toothed morons.
#33!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0No one is emphasizing this enough, thank you. The RUFO clause is a RED HERRING. Argentina self imposed this rule. It will only trigger if a VOLUNTARY offer is made. Did anyone not understand that. I will repeat. It will only trigger if a VOLUNTARY OFFER is made, and Judge Griesa's orders AIN'T VOLUNTARY!!! So, Argentina would win any RUFO lawsuit because Judge Griesa's judgement is INVOLUNTARY he is making them negotiate!!!!
Can't Argentina see what is going to happen? It gonna hurt asking to be lent some money and being then told to go F--- yourself.
“There is no way to construe as fair the United States court ruling that Argentina cannot pay 93% of its creditors”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Griesa said it was fair. An Appeals Court said it was fair. SCOTUS said it was fair.
Applebaum says all of the above must be wrong.
Griesa isn't hurting the world and neither is NML. Argentina is responsible for mismanaging the money they borrowed and it is Argentina that is hurting the world, not Griesa or NML.
As well, this Argentine government and a good portion of Argentines want to steal another people's land. And they steal other people's money when they borrow and do not pay it back.
Why would any one want to defend a bunch of thieves who deserve the problems they created by abusing other people.
Does Applebaum or Stiglitz or Narine or Voice or Polico ever see any contribution by the Argentine govt. to these current problems of theirs?
As journalist, like in all countries, this one shows her ignorance and her impartiality to analize the facts......
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0First, Mr. Griesa is not there to rule considering the efects to one side or another from his judgement....he is there just to apply the laws of his stete/country as its are written.....
Second, all creditors (or bondholders) have the same right to be paid within the same schedule independent if they have accepted or not an exchange rate offered by the borrower.....
Third, all countries will learn that a sovereing debt is just a debt that MUST be paid on time and in full even if the creditor have not accepted a restucturing process......
Fourth, the ruling of a court MUST be complied with no dilay after the last available recusal ordered to do so...even if it´s against the own interest...
Fifth, any bank or financial institution will be open to lend money to a country that act like Argentina did and does rigth now......because the refund riks turn too high.....
Griesa knew exactly what he was doing.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 05:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0He ensured that the Argentines could not pay the 92%, but withold payment to the “the holdouts”.
That way it is impossible for them to withhold payments as leverage to force the Hedge Funds to accept the same as the other Bondholders.
Simple.
No dummy our Judge, unlike a few posters here.
54. 66000 Argentine troops?
Aug 05th, 2014 - 07:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0“There is no way to construe as fair the United States court ruling that Argentina cannot pay 93% of its creditors”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Without also paying the other 7% at the same time. A lie of omission is still a lie.
The holdouts refused to take a large cut on the debt owed, and are owed money as are the other creditors.
There is no circumstance that negates the debt owed to either the 93% or the 7%.
Both should be paid at the same time, as both are still owed money.
What is unfair about that?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/how-the-us-got-mixed-up-in-a-fight-over-kurdish-oil--with-a-unified-iraq-at-stake/2014/08/04/4a00a6e2-1900-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0I know Cap said it wasn't likely but I don't see why a similar situation couldn't roll out with LNG shipments to Argentina.
Looks like Israel is going to get its hand on a lot of discounted oil.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:34 am - Link - Report abuse 063
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0...a similar situation would be like Scotland trying to sell British oil to another Country...because they feel they haven't been adequately compensated for the Highland Clearances or Cumberland's ethnic cleansing....
Did you even read the article....?
My point was Cap said that a court order couldn't hold a tanker. I disagreed and this was an example proving my point.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0The details of this case are irrelevant.
It shouldn't be too much longer before Singer starts with attachments.
I can't wait!!
I thought Singer has being trying attachments for years....work out well for him...?
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0I reckon you'll be waiting a long time...
So how was my forecast for the week....I said nothing would change and that was spot on...I reckon....
What's your's for this week...?...Griesa backs down and allows the restructured bondholders to be paid...?
...and of course the details are relevant...this was a tanker that was to deliver to Texas and both parties appealed to the Texas court.....if the tanker sits in international waters the US can't do a damn thing and have no jurisdiction over Iraq or Kurdish oil...
The tanker is not seized by anyone, it is looking to deliver...it could and would go somewhere else if another buyer comes along...like Israel....
The Texas court is stopping it being delivered to Texas...that's it...
A bloody dock Union is capable of that....
Predictions for the week? Who cares about a week? I've always said the default isn't the immediate problem, its the ever falling and failing BCRA reserves.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0The default process takes a long time for its effects to roll out. Slow and steady process as the economy gets strangled.
The default has already made YPF ( and other commercial companies) and the Provinces shelve their u$ bond float. That was U$ CFK was counting on to keep the reserve funds in check. That and IDB and WB disbursement, and a hope and prayer for PC credits. The USA surely has stopped all of those for awhile.
The Chinese also declared Arg in default so the recently announced Yuan loan is also in doubt.
How long do you think the BCRA float is going to last now the the Soy sales are over ?
not too much longer
I think NML took a break from attachments and was waiting on the SCOTUS ruling both on the bonds and regarding Arg Int'l Asset disclosure and of course the CA case. That's why you've not seen anything in awhile.
Give it some time. Argentina isn't going anywhere and NML has lots of resources with the backing of SCOTUS ruling.
It shouldn't be long now.
Common people in Argentina could say.....“Who needs an enemie with this friends”, refering to its bipolar President......
Aug 06th, 2014 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0One way to change its fate is that Argentina has a real, smart, honorable and working new President.....not peronista, of course.....If not, R.I.P. Argentina....
Unfortunately, my country is going down to the same way as Argentina with our Nany President Chanchelet......Our deepest fears are getting real....hope our neighbors mistakes could open our eyes and stop the fall......if not, R.I.P. Chile also......!!!!
59 Sergio Vega (Aug. 5th, 2014; 4:45 am
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sergio, probably you have established a record for this forum: the shorter time between the issue of a Comment, and its belying by fact. You write (59):
”First, Mr. Griesa IS NOT THERE TO RULE CONSIDERING THE EFFECTS TO ONE SIDE OR ANOTHER FROM HIS JUDGEMENT...he is there just to apply the laws of his stete(sic)/country as its(sic) are written...“
while you can read , just above, in ”SUGGESTED STORIES” (AUG. 5TH., 2014) and under the title “GRIESA PRAISES POLLACK´S 'GREAT SKILL' AND REVEALS HE DIRECTED THE USE OF 'DEFAULT':
”Jonathan Blackman, an attorney for Argentina, criticised Pollack and called for his removal after the mediator issued a statement declaring THAT THE COUNTRY WOULD BE 'IMMINENTLY IN DEFAULT' following the breakdown in talks July 30.“
.................................................................................................
”Griesa said that POLLACK ISSUED THE STATEMENT ABOUT DEFAULT A T H I S D I R E C T I O N and that it was accurate”.
(R. I. P. MR. SERGIO VEGA´S EVALUATION OF U.S. JUDGES WHIMS)
Hey, psssssst - this is for you - Elvis (Kissoff):
Aug 06th, 2014 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bien, ya que mi bebé me dejó(me abandonó) bien,
encontré un nuevo lugar morando bien,
está abajo al final de calle sola en el hotel
de angustia donde seré - donde me hago tan solo,
el bebé bien,
soy tan solo me hago tan solo,
yo podría morir
Aunque siempre sea atestado usted todavía puede encontrar algún
espacio(cuarto)
para amantes destrozados gritando allí en la penumbra y ser así
- donde ellos serán tan solos,
el bebé bien,
ellos son tan solos ellos serán tan solos,
ellos podrían morir Bien,
los rasgones(las lágrimas)
del recepcionista guardan(mantienen)
flowin ' y el recepcionista vestido en negro bien,
ellos han sido tan largos sobre la calle sola bien,
ellos van a nunca, ellos nunca regresarán y ellos serán así -
donde ellos serán tan solos,
el bebé
bien, ellos son tan solos ellos
serán tan solos,
ellos podrían morir Bien ahora,
si su bebé le abandona(deja)
y usted tiene un cuento triste
para contar solamente(justo)
toman un paseo la calle abajo sola al hotel de angustia
y usted será, usted será,
usted será solo,
el bebé usted será tan solo usted será tan solo,
usted podría morir Bien,
aunque siempre sea atestado
usted todavía puede encontrar algún espacio(cuarto)
para amantes destrozados
gritando allí en la penumbra
y ellos serán así
- ellos serán tan solos,
el bebé ellos serán tan solos ellos
serán tan solos,
ellos podrían morir.
#71
Aug 06th, 2014 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How about a translation !
@ 72 Clyde15
Aug 06th, 2014 - 06:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A clue: it's the words to Heartbreak Hotel.
Start with “since my baby left me” :o)
#73
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I remember hearing this on two way family favourites with Jean Metcalf in 1956 !
Yes, it is going to be quite a heartbreaker for quite a few in the land of rotting roadkill when the ramifications of the default come to bear on an already fragile economy.
Aug 08th, 2014 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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