MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentina planning to question Judge Griesa before the International Court of Justice
Argentina's Legal and Technical Secretary to the Presidency Carlos Zannini is overseeing a group of experts in international law as they draft the suit the government of President Cristina Fernandez will file against US Judge Thomas Griesa’s ruling on full repayment to holdout bondholders at International Court of Justice in the Hague, according to Noticias Argentinas- Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules“more than being a mediator, Pollack has put on the vultures’ shirt, because he’s not demanding anything from them.”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 07:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Jesus. He doesn't have to demand anything from them. They won. The only thing they need to do is turn up to the negotiations. They don't even need to negotiate once they are there.
All they will succeed in doing is annoying the US. Not the brightest move when you need support on so many fronts.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 07:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0I wouldn't worry though. If their 'group of experts in international law' is of the same standard as all their other experts this will never see the light of day.
“... if a sentence by a country’s judicial system affects another state, the dispute can be brought before the international tribunal in the Netherlands...”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 07:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0the bonds were placed under US law, German law, Japanese law and others. without that they would not have got a peso as credit. therefore, the legislation is under the bond-law, not under the ck-gang robberment law of argentina.
try to understand that, ck, kicillof, capitanich and other good-for-nothings.
So, Argentina will happily take Judge Griesa to the ICJ to avoid paying what they owe, but will avoid at all costs ICJ judgement over the Falklands, despite the rhetoric and bullshit being claimed at roughly the same level.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0I acknowledge that in the debt case, they might actually have a legitimate case, which makes all the difference.
I think their arrogance makes them stupid. At some point the USA State Dept/Prez is going to get really mad and make it known.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Not even Chavez took the whining this far.
They have no case to take to the ICJ! All they have to do is comply with their contractual obligations!
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0So the plonkers have discovered that the ICJ actually does exist.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Wal, who'd thunk it?
And what do all you trolls think about this.
Would like to hear from:-
Think
José Malvinero
malen
Hepatia
Axel Arg
& any other malvinista that l've missed.
Please Explain.
Does the expression...“clutching at straws” seem apt ?
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0The ICJ will not take the claim, they would be stupid to second guess the SCOTUS in a matter of simple contract law as this.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Not only did The Dark Country lose (as some of us always said they would) they are squirming and wriggling just like the viperous brood they are and thinking that they look good at the international level.
They don't even realise that they are making things worse for the default. Given this nonsense even when they get out of the latest self-inflicted disaster this stunt is going to turn investors off for a very long time.
I suppose winning the old ship back has given them false hope.
They are going to get laughed out of the Hague!
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Correct me if I am wrong. The ICJ does not deal with the INDIVIDUAL only STATE and both parties involved have to Agree to their jurisdiction?
They don't understand that in real countries the justice system is separate from the government...and very very independent.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0@11 You wouldn't think it is that difficult a concept to get your head round, would you? We all understand that in Argentina the courts are politicised, so why can't they understand that in developed countries they are independent? Surely the answer has to be either they really are that stupid or (more likely) they think the electorate are stupid/nationalistic enough to believe whatever rubbish they utter.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Given CFKs recent poll boost you could argue they are not wrong.
“There is no default” they say and that “the consequences of the non default will have no effect on Argentina”. Well don't look now Baby Snooks but the Chinese just declared you in default!!!!! I would immediately start an investigation into the “fact” that the Chinese president secretly eats big macs and that the chairman of the board of McDonald's was seen taking pictures at the great wall while supposedly on vacation. It is widely speculated that he was really in China to persuade the President to declare Argentina in default because Christina has recently made disparaging remarks about the new Angus bacon burger combo being ridiculously over priced. I would check this out quick!! My God everyone is against Argentina! The inhumanity of it all!
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0This could be interesting and may cast some light on argie “thinking”. In the first instance, there would be little point in taking the matter to the ICJ as both “parties” have to agree to accept a ruling. Even jurisdiction depends on consent and the United States only accepts the court's jurisdiction on a case by case basis. So there's their first little stumbling block. Then there's the small problem of who can be a “party”. The United States itself would have to be a party as “Individuals, corporations, parts of a federal state, NGOs, UN organs and self-determination groups are excluded from direct participation in cases”. Somehow I can't see the United States allowing one of its nationals to be persecuted in such fashion. There's also the small matter that Judge Griesa would probably run rings around them.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 12:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All this ICJ talk is nonsense. It's just an exercise in domestic public relations and an attempt to kick the problem down the road again. However this time further procedings will not permit a stay on the restrictions - ie Argentina will remain in default and probably for longer than they otherwise would.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0... is gobsmacked by their stupidity.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/166346/govt-blasts-us-judge-griesa-for-ratifying-pollack-as-special-master
Aug 05th, 2014 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0According to Capitanich:
“No group backed by any judge should be able to damage a sovereign country.”
No one has to when these morons running the country perfected it. Christina's 15 minutes is fast coming to an end.
17. My favorite quote from the daily screeching was, The USA court system is corrupt because the mediator couldn't get the judge to release the stay and that he didn't demand anything from the holdouts.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bahahahaa
and the crazy rolls on....
Time to get rid of Griesa. The seat is too big for him. U.S. congress should say “bye-bye Griesa.” This judge has made too many people victims.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Time to get rid of CFK. The seat is too big for her. Arg congress should say “bye-bye CFK.” This lithium soaked Prez has made too many people victims.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“a group of experts in international law” - in Argentina? They don't even have a group of experts in their own laws!
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The situation gets worse with every statement that is made.
I find it difficult to believe that the International Court of Justice will even hear Argentina's case.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After all, they signed their sovereign rights away when they took at the loans. The ICJ cannot interfere in the internal justice system of any sovereign nation, nor can it overturn any rulings made by these internal justice systems - or courts.
So all CFK and her gang are doing is attempting to buy time with the Argentine public whilst they complete the rape and plunder of Argentina.
It won't work, and if the ICJ has any sense it will quickly and publicly remind Argentina that the ICJ was set up to solve disputes between COUNTRIES.
This isn't a dispute between countries - so therefore outside of the ICJ's remit.
Will this circus that is the Argentine government ever end?
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0....hope not
@19 “Liberty”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“U.S. congress should say “bye-bye Griesa.”
Why not just have the U.S. President say ”bye-bye” Griesa?
Even if they wanted to there is no proccess by which they can remove a circuit court judge.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I do wonder whether Argentine individuals could be found in contempt of court for some of their statements of late.
@24
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the US, you don't get to change a judge just because you don't like his rulings. If that was the case (as in Argentina) there would always be someone who did not like the ruling on every case that goes in front of the judge. Get it dopey! Our president would love to do just as you suggest, but even he is not so stupid as to believe that he could do it.
Interesting, basically they are saying. That after exhausting all legal avenues of the US legal system, they do not recognise Judge Griesas Court and are going to ignore court rulings.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ample evidence of contempt I would have thought. Time for Griesa to show them just what the rule of law is, whether they recognise it or not, because others do and respect it and will obey it.
@19. It's always nice when someone includes personal details in their user name such as, in this case, age. But a judge of a U.S. district court is appointed for life. And it's very difficult to get one removed. The only method is impeachment by the House of Representatives, followed by a trial in the Senate and conviction by a two-thirds majority. And far too many people wouldn't do anything like that for argieland. I'd be interested to hear a list of “victims”. The argie so-called “government”? Partly. But there's a way to go yet. The argie “people”? Not yet. The restructured bondholders. Again, not yet. Who are these “victims”? It's true that argieland still can't borrow any money in the international markets, but it doesn't need to. We are constantly reminded that argieland is self-sufficient and doesn't need any “outsiders”. So just get on with it? The argie “people” haven't seen anything yet. The inflation can get a lot worse. “Growth” is lekey to become negative. Credit charges will increase. The world won't want to pay argie prices. The restructured bondholders may be a little squeezed for a while, but argieland will have to pay.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bit of advice. CFK said “Every time that Argentina has become viable, that is when the missiles and permanent bombardments begin” CFK said, adding that despite the ongoing dispute against holdout investors “we are going to keep working as always.” She lies. When, and if, argieland becomes viable, be honest. Pay your debts. Don't breach treaties, international laws, agreements or contracts. You may think that “viveza criolla” is the way to go, the rest of the world disagrees. So quit trying to “pull a fast one” and you'll get along fine as long as you live within your means. 99.5% of the world does it. You are NOT the only ones in step!
#19 no the law that the assholes, aka, Kirchner's made too many people victims, that is to say, the entire country of Argentina.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#24....He can't, the House Judiciary would have to hold a hearing for cause to impeach. The Senate tries if there is cause......same for the President.
#19...Why are you Argentine's NEVER responsible for your own actions? You borrowed the money, now live with the consequences.....pay the debt, or don't pay the debt. Either way, the ramifications or either are solely the the actions of Argentina and the government you elected. Live with that fact and deal with the fact. You can change it if you have the will. You really cry to freaking much about your own actions.
“With international legal action in the works, deputy Economy Minister Emmanuel Alvarez Agis said on Sunday that the government will insist on the removal of lawyer Daniel Pollack as mediator in the lingering dispute with the holdouts.”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oooooooh - scary. He insisted. Laughable.
“International law dictates that if a sentence by a country’s judicial system affects another state, the dispute can be brought before the international tribunal in the Netherlands.” Note: Griesa's findings include a judgement and numerous orders. However, if criminal activity is identified on the part of RG which falls within the purview of the U.S.A. courts - possiblly RICO, bank fraud, theft by conversion, etc. - the passing of a sentence by a court may come to pass.
By accepting New York law as the original jurisdiction, RG waived the alternate venue for appeal.
RG - once again - fails.
Keep digging Elvis - the hole is not yet quite deep enough to erase you as a minor footnote in the checkered history of RG.
Your gringo amigos salute you.
From the sublime to the ridiculous, how to win friends and influence people.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@11 Mendoza Canadian
Their first reaction to unfavourable court rulings (both in and outside of Argentina) is to try and apply political pressure to get it changed, whilst loudly slagging off whoever made it, by whatever system.
It is one of the defining features of CFK & Co.
And one of the most revealing in terms of how they think.
That would be another waste of time effort and most of all money and it's never going to happen...
Aug 05th, 2014 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Frankly this is a laughable effort for the ignorant to consume....
They have the right to take this course of action.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think Argentina should be encouraged to take their grievances to the ICJ.
Seems like their 'team of experts' needs a basic lesson in the subject:
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/argentinas-call-insider-trading-investigation-unfounded/
I note that the article claims:
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The Barack Obama administration would therefore have to accept subordinating a decision by the US Supreme Court to the international jurisdiction of The Hague, a move that pundits consider unlikely considering”.
But the US Supreme Court would be the element of the Federal government ruling on the constitutionality of such a move, even if it were made, and to do so the US President would have to make a Treaty, requiring the consent of 2/3rds of the Senate and legislation through the Congress at the very least. In other words, the article's contention is fanciful.
Why don't they just say what they mean “We should be allowed to borrow money and then be allowed to steal it.”?
Has anyone bothered to point the RG's at Article 34 of the Statute of the ICJ reads:
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“1. Only states may be parties in cases before the Court.”
The full statute is available here:
http://www.icj-cij.org/documents/?p1=4&p2=2&p3=0
It’s not fair she demands
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I will not pay [stamping her feet]
You can’t make me pay, I will scream if you try, you are always picking on us, leave us alone, we don’t owe anyone any money its all lies..lol
We will take you to the ICJ but will only comply if it goes our way,
If not we wont accept their decision so there.
Im going home to where my people love and adore me…lolol
.
I thought Argentina does not believe in the power of the ICJ?
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think it's the height of funny that the EUians and NorthAmoans believe Argentines should accept their courts are independent and fair, “just because we say so”.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0hahahahah, the arrogance of it all.
She believes in it when there is nothing to lose and there is nothing to lose here as they already lost.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the Falklands....they can lose the right to deflect, whine and makes assholes of themselves if they took that to the Falklands complaint to the ICJ.
#39 tobias.....we don't expect you to believe courts are impartial based on your life's experience in Argentina. It's a socialization thing with your kind.
Looks like people are giving up on Arg negotiating.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The ADRs and Merval took a beating today.
I wonder why Think isn't giving us updates today?
No I don't
Oh, yes, I forgot now it's time to trot the “pavlovian” conditioning response skit, since you northerners cannot actually disprove my statement, which is an opinion based on evidence.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can believe whatever you wish, European and American courts are a joke and travesty of jurisprudence.
The NorthAmoan is a privatized system that makes profits by either throwing the poor and young into private-run prisons, by dragging the middle class into unnecessary and ridiculous court proceedings (which they disguise as “enforcing the laws”, or giving speed tickets which feeds an entire side system of smaller courts, traffic schools, and lawyers), and by finding a point of weakness in politicians and rich people, so that a huge trial is brought about, that brings millions to both lawyers and court, and why not some income to the counties in terms of media, and as a side kick the jury after trial can get book deals.
It is truly a pathetic system.
As for European courts, they are completely corrupt because they have career judges that have no political pressure put on them, they are just part of the government cabal and the more processes they bring on, the bigger their retirement becomes. They are completely detatched from the general population and the longer they remain on the bench the more ideological and procrustean they become. Eventually the love the court for the pageantry and not for the act of delivering justice, all they want is the show.
I have no respect for either of them.
@39, 42. You really need to see a psychiatrist. You are so far from reality that the most likely means of bringing you to what little sense you may have left is with a surface to air missile. Carry on with your psychotic dreams. It shouldn't be too long before there is enough evidence to have you committed to a mental institution. For life. Short as that might be.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@43
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I almost get the sense I left you without words. You!
My intellect is towering, my response left even you sans-parole.
44 Alistair Nigel (EUian)
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“My intellect is towering”
( and your arrogance is colossal )
and your shrink MUST be a millionaire...........and have the patience of a saint
The keyword is “planning”.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is also planning to drag Uruguay to the ICJ over the pulp mills - since 2007.
Argentina is also planning to drag the UK to the ICJ over the British Falklands Islands BOT - since 1952.
Argentina is also planning to drag a gull to the ICJ over a large birdsh1t on the president's car.
Argentina is also planning to build a wooden bridge to the Moon.
Argentina is also planning to say qack!, qack! and waddle like a duck.
@ 19 Liberty12 Birdbrain blabbering
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“This judge has made too many people victims.”
You have just been appointed to a place among 'The Major Morons of 2014' based on your idea that judges should not rule according to the law.
Poor Toby maybe when he grows up he'll realize if you have to tell someone you're smart...you're not.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can fake “stupid” but you can't fake “smart”...
Aug 05th, 2014 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@48
Aug 06th, 2014 - 12:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Reminds me of the people that always and every day asseverate they were “right” on predicting some outcome.
When someone does that all the time, it most certainly means they were wrong.
50. Except you can go back through my many posts and see the themes and trends I've predicted and for the most part they've rolled out just as I said they would.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 01:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Don't sell your sugar yet.
Its still not time.
Really? Didn't you say the USA takes care of the environment? How many times have I proven you wrong, from the world's biggest garbage dump off the coast of California, to the only river in history that actually caught fire, to the poisoning of billions of liters of pristine water due to fracking, to the trains that crash with oil, to the oil spills all over, the “tar sand” beaches (which Yankeeboy raves about), to the open-pit mines, to the birds falling out of the sky all over the USA, to the dead sea mammals washing ashore, the right-northern whale almost extinct, and I can go on and on and on and on and on...
Aug 06th, 2014 - 02:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Now lets add the fact your great lakes, yet another source of water, are turning into green goo... .YUCK!!!
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/toxic-algae-in-lake-erie-what-you-need-to-know/
And Americans think that is clean water and swim in it! My goodness.
And now add this
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/toxic-algae-in-lake-erie-what-you-need-to-know/
And yes, New York City still smells like urine according to someone that went there last month.
What a dirty, filthy country.
^^^^ Deflection alert
Aug 06th, 2014 - 04:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Meanwhile, the Argentinian government is telling/threatening the banks to release the money they deposited to the exchange bond holders, despite the injunction, according to the BA Herald.
Hmmm, what to do - nothing, and annoy a pariah state, or pay up and risk a massive fine and possible criminal charges for contempt of court. Phew, this is a tricky one.
Another foot stomping exercise from CFK. Getting funnier and funnier to watch.
Argentina could care less whether the banks release the money or not. At the end of the day, it is not Argentina they are hurting but the 92%.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has taken this far farther than anyone ever imagined or anyone else has ever done, which shows how little sway the rest of the world really has, in spite of the fact you all claim the EU/US, etc, are so indispensable.
Obviously you are not.
#54 For a country that “could care less” they certainly act in a different manner. They typically act in the opposite manner of you tobi. Getting enough lactating juice from momma tobi?
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Have you ever left mendoza to explore your own country yet, let alone the world or do you still believe everything in your internet world?
Tell me, in regards to Campagnoli, how many times will they try him? Until they get the results they want?
@52 Alistair Nigel,
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Go to the mountains of Wyoming & breathe the fresh mountain air.
Stand on a hilltop on a clear night & watch the brilliant stars in the heavens.
Beautiful country.
Just have to pick the best places to go.
l'm absolutely sure there are some disgusting places in your country.
“asseverate”? Who uses this word more than once in a lifetime? Alistair Nigel (EUian) must be the only one!
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0#56 Tobi aka Alistair Nigel is a government puppet living on government handouts. He can't get out of his mommie's basement let alone get out to the countries he “thinks” he knows about. Besides.........he is the type that can find a drop of piss in an ocean and prefers to focus on the piss for illustrative purposes.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0@42 Alistair Nigel
Aug 06th, 2014 - 02:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“judges that have no political pressure put on them”
You seem to think this is a bad thing, which in itself shows the level of your thinking. It would actually be seriously illegal here.
Separation of powers is one of the key features of modern democracies.
It stops people from getting away with murder, so to speak.
“Argentina has taken this far farther than anyone ever imagined or anyone else has ever done”
And still lost!!! Pyric pales into insignificance in comparison.
Massive bill still to be paid, or they start seizing Argentine assets.
How happy is CFK going to be when that happens, how much is that going to cost Argentina???
@60
Aug 06th, 2014 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take all that you want if you can, you aren't taken their dignity. Argentina WILL NEVER acquiesce to EU, UK, US, China, Brazil, demands.
Haven't you people noticed after all these years the more you push them the more they push back and behave even less in the matter you want them to??
When will you figure it out that bullying Argentina into submission of international norms has the opposite effect, and that maybe you should TALK to them?
Something the world has NEVER done, actually asked Argentina to sit down and talk.
It's all “let's sit down, but the outcome of the talks is already predetermined” (Falklands fishing/sovereignty, debt, MEROSUR-EU free trade, WTO, pulp mills, etc).
You people have quite the chutzpah to blast Argentina for not negotiating at a table, yet in ALL those cases the negotiation can have only one conclusion: Argentina accepting Falklands as British, that the entire debt must be paid, that Argentina must accept free-trade, that the trade barriers must all be lifted, that the pulp mils must stay...
What is there then to talk about when Argentina must be the one always to comply and never the one that gets ANYTHING, not even compromise?
You are the ones that have created the situation, that Argentina no longer sits down with any nation or entity to “talk”. The other side has to always win 100%, and Argentina must always get nothing. What's the point?
You are all Argentina haters, want the country destroyed. That's the bottom line.
#61
Aug 06th, 2014 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When you use the word “demands” we associate that with Argentina at the UN or any other forum your government attends and it is always anti-British rhetoric that is promulgated.
“When will you figure it out that bullying Argentina into submission of international norms has the opposite effect, and that maybe you should TALK to them?”
A moot point, however, vis a vis the Falklands, your government is adamant in refusing to talk to the islanders.
“It's all “let's sit down, but the outcome of the talks is already predetermined” (Falklands fishing/sovereignty.
Your government have declared in your constitution that the FALKLANDS are Argentinian. So, any talks must have this declaration of sovereignty in favour of Argentina.
That sounds a bit predetermined in favour of Argentina
As has been said before, don't take this forum as indicative of the feelings of the UK...I can't speak about any other country.. I would wager that the great bulk of the population here know nothing and care less about Argentina's default. You rarely ever get a mention on any of the news channels except maybe for football.
When you start threatening the Falklands then that is a raw nerve to the UK and it brings back memories of 1982 and thoughts that we had better get ready” just in case”
Your government has brought your country to this situation by ignoring the norms which prevail more or less in International affairs.
60. What dignity?
Aug 06th, 2014 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A false sense of pride
Argentinians are like arrogant hobos screaming on the corner
The rest of us just watch and laugh but eventually it just gets sad.
Indeed!
Aug 06th, 2014 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@60
Aug 06th, 2014 - 05:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Haven't you people noticed after all these years the more you push them the more they push back and behave even less in the matter you want them to??”
This has been noticed as Argentina has done exactly the same to the Falkland Islanders-with the same effect.
The only difference between the resistance shown by Argentina to everyone and the Islanders to Argentina, is that in the Falkland Islanders case, it is helping their country advance (even if very slowly), while Argentina unable to grasp the simple concept that people don't like being owed money, means that Argentina's balls have turned to bicycle wheels and backpedalled up its own ass.
I knew it was only political theatre or stupidity...
Aug 06th, 2014 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0While I as Chinese do not personally ascribe to the notion the Falklands are Argentine or are called Malvinas, I mentioned that example as evidence of the list of “non-negotiable negotiations”, the rest of the world CLAIMS they are vouchsafing Argentina.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is what they are, non-negotiable negotiations/talks, and then the rest of the world wonders why Argentina stopped dialogue with all nations on all those issues long ago.
I repeat:
The world offers negotiations on the Falkands, but they remain British.
The world offers negotiations on trade, but Argentina must drop all barriers and we keep all of ours.
The world offers negotiations on debt, but you must pay all debts with interest, and then you get no relief for it.
The world offers negotiations on MERCOSUR-EU, but you must accept free-trade no exceptions.
The world offers negotiations on the pulp-mills, but they all stay and they can build more.
Clyde mentions only the Falklands and conveniently forgets all the others above.
IT IS YOU THE REST OF THE WORLD that have no intentions of talks, dialogue, and friendship, and then to behave even more dishonestly, when Argentina refuses to “talk” about the issues above (where the other side gets 100%, and Argentina gets nothing), it is Argentina that is whinging, pouting, arrogant, and intransigent.
Anyone with an iota of impartiality can see that it is the rest of the world that wants to give not an inch, and demand that Argentina just give it all. THat's called antagonism and enmity.
Poor Argentina......poor, poor Argentina......always being victimized. Peronism did a very bad thing and changed the mindset of a once hard working people to the whiners and blamers they are now.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 066 Alistair Nigel (EUian)
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Anyone with an iota of impartiality can see that it is the rest of the world that wants to give not an inch, and demand that Argentina just give it all”.
Tobi, you are so full of sh*t, you squeak when you walk.
@67, 68
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No actual rebuttal of the facts raised by my post. Speaks for itself in terms of how on the money they are.
I will rebutt every single example in your post Toby.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Firstly, you are a so far up your own arse as to be there are any negotiations between “the world” and Argentina. There are negotiations between Argentina and whichever group they are negotiating with.
Putting the Falklands to one side, because, as Clyde points out your countries hypocrisy is screaming on this, and indeed you enter the negotiations with nothing to offer, so why is it unfair you are offered nothing. If I entered a bank saying give me $1million, and they said no...so I said lets negotiate, the answer would still be no.
An equivalent case would be Wales claiming Patagonia and demanding Argentina negotiate, what would your answer be?
As far as debt negotiations go, 92% of your creditors have alreadyaccepted your “negotiations”...so it seems 92% of your argument on that one in bollocks too...did you actually sit with the vulture funds and negotiate...oh no...your President said “not a penny”. So again more lies from you.
Not a single trade negotiation of any kind has ordered Argentina to remove its barriers whilst whoever it is keeps all theirs, another fantasy and another lie. Interestingly most of the other 200+ countries of the world manage to negotiate perfectly amicable trade deals, and keep to them.
Pulp Mills, ditto...
I feel sorry for you Toby, genuinely. You have clearly tried to study, and better your education, but you have swallowed the Argentine lie hook, line and sinker...
The world is not against Argentina, the world doesn't care about Argentina any more than it cares about Ghana or Bhutan or Belgium. Argentina is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things..
Where we probably do agree is that Argentina should be a great country. It has natural resources, it has tourism appeal, it has infrastructure.
You believe the North or West has tricked you out of this..unfortunately the truth is successive governments have raped you blind and called it unpatriotic to criticise.
#68 He's is so full of shit his eyes are brown.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Actually we agree in nothing. Argentina was already great. Now like all nations, is at the end of its life cycle. So will yours and all others. No nation has lasted more that 1000 years.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have never known a Chinese student so interested in the National and international affairs of other countries, except maybe the top 10, and that only due to looking for business opportunities. Most Chinese are only interested in business and simply do not care about politics unless it affects their ability to accumulate cash. Certainly wouldn't spend so much time being so concerned about a country like Argentina without a profit motive.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tobi should do more research before adopting these false personas.
He thinks that an unknown Chinese guy who shows up on a niche site like this purporting identical rubbish as Trolley Boy would go unnoticed?
Haha! He might as well try and get Judge Griesa in front of the ICJ. ...
.... oops!
:)
@72 Tobi,
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stop feeling sorry for yourself.
As Monkeymagic @70, says, The World is not against Argentina.
Most of the world could not care less what your country does or doesn't do.
Anyway, a lot of the malvinistas here say the World supports them in their ridiculous “claims” over the Falkland lslands.
So which is it, Tobi?
1) the World is against Argentina
OR
2) the World supports Argentina's ridiculous “claims”.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Lighten up, Tobi niño & have a big mug of great coffee.
Peace
@73, 74
Aug 06th, 2014 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The world is utterly obsessed about Argentina, name another country with the same population and so distant from world hotspots that gets such obsessive attention.
So I am interested from that point of view.
At various times
Aug 06th, 2014 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Vietnam
Israel
Australia
Ukraine
South Africa
Afghanistan
Libya
Iraq
Greece
Egypt
Thailand
In fact the list would be shorter of countries that haven't.
Do you really believe 20 odd folk on Mercopress is the world.....remove the Falkalnds issue and you and yankeeboy would be the only 2 left....
Odd perception of world
Vietnam, Israel, Ukraine, South Africa, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Egypt have all been hot-spots for the USA and Europe.
Aug 06th, 2014 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think Australia fits, no one has ever cared about them. In a way that's good they just don't cause trouble and are out of everyone's way, except when they become the USA's lap dog of a lap dog in international policy (since Ozzers are lap dogs of the UK, which in turn are lap dogs of the USA).
Thailand I'm not sure.
Argentina causes no terrorism, no economic troubles, no geopolitical tensions, it is not a direct threat to EU or US, and yet...
Toby
Aug 06th, 2014 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Firstly, Argentina does cause geopolitical tension with the Falklamds, there is state sponsored terrorism both with the 1982 invasion and the hounding of cruise ships, and it is a direct threat to British citizens on the islands. I've explained this to you before, that's why 95% of posters are here.
If you don't believe me of the total apathy of Argentinas issues in the UK carry out your own straw poll.
Go find the BBC website. It is the main news website in the UK.
Click on news then world and then Latam...today there are 13 stories on the front page. Only one references Argentina (some old bat who found her grandson). That is typical. If you did it everyday for a month, there'd be more stories and more interest in Brazil, Mexico and probably Colombia and chile than Argentina.
The obsession is only in your head. Check our main news service daily if you don't believe me. Nobody gives a shit about Argentina...
One story of 13 Latam stories today...I'll check tomorrow....
You've swallowed the victim syndrome your government has fed you, and found the Mercopress site to convince you it's true....it's not. NOBODY CARES.
The fact you keep repeating it suggest strongly of the opposite. Britain is obsessed with us.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yet it's main news website can't be bothered to mention it....poor Argtardia....so insignificant, everyone's obsessed with us, they just can't be bothered to mention it....lol.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0The only USA news Argentina made is the 2nd default in 13 years and the WC ........other than that it is internet news only for Argentina.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0We've invested in Africa where thee is some intelligent life and they appreciate 33 billion in aid. 12 billion for electricity alone.......as Argentina and Venezuela starts looking lIKe DPRK
Well if you want to get down to specifics, most Argentines don't even know what the capital of the United States is, and about % cannot locate England on a map.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 02:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0If you are important, then everyone would easily know those things.
I'm sure you are important, just not down there.
Yes Alastair....I am sure most Argentine couldn't find the UK on a map. It speaks volumes for your rundown education system, ruined by decades of Peronism. Ignorance isn't something to be proud of.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 03:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0I guess you must also have come to the conclusion that ALL women in the world are “obsessed” with you, more than any other man in the world. After all a couple of the have mentioned you on Mercopress....in reality, one of them give a crap, and on no other website are you mentioned, and plenty of other men are....but as the “whole world” is certain discussion threads on Mercopress....it must be true.....LOLOLOL.
@83
Aug 07th, 2014 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I said England. I think a few more could find the UK, probably 20%.
And why is it that if the rest of the world can't find Argentina on a map you say that is not ignorance? Why do you like having it both ways? If anything they should know because it is an easily visible country on a world map if anything else.
I never said anything of the sort of women. At all.
I would say 99% of people who went through UK education could find Argentina on the map, but 99% could find Mexico or Canada, or brazil or china or any other similar sized country.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 07:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0The same majority could tell you about Maradona, corned beef and the Falklands....and that's about all they'd be interested in. Perhaps a Lloyd Webber musical, Messi and something about a Spanish Empire.
To pretend there is an obsession is ridiculous, if it weren't for the Falklands and the death of 255 servicemen in living memory, Argentina would be as significant in the UK physche as Chad or Belarus.
I am sorry your insignificance disappoints you.
#82 I thought you are a Chin? How would you know that? Anyway Tobi, everytime I have been in Argentina I find that is not the case. They are not as minimally educated as you are.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0So where in China do you claim to be from? And residing in now?
Comment removed by the editor.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 11:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Back of track,,
Aug 07th, 2014 - 12:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina can question all it wants, the fact remain undisputable,
they borrowed the money,
and now they must pay it back full stop..
Now they are back to “Considering” filing at the ICJ...........why not just file? Because they can't.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol
All their noise comes out the asses.
Day two of BBC watch measuring “the worlds obsession” with Argentina.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 04:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Latam stories today:12
Number referencing Argentina:1
number referencing Mexico (3) Colombia (2) Bolivia (2) peru (1) Nicaragua (1) Cuba (1) Brazil (1)
So far no evidence of Argentina being an obsession, or “singled out” or anything special at all.
Just another corrupt, run-down, insignificant Spanish colony, who haven't moved on in 200 years.
“The Barack Obama administration would therefore have to accept subordinating a decision by the US Supreme Court to the international jurisdiction of The Hague.......”
Aug 07th, 2014 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That will not happen, ever. Argentina thinks he would? There are some basics you learn about governments in elementary school, like the US has 3 branches, etc.... Executive vs. Judicial to the Hague?
I accept the designation of plaintiff as “vulture”
Aug 07th, 2014 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0IF
the defendant is hereafter referred to as “ROTTING ROADKILL”.
ga
Part of the response from the ICJ to the risible application from Argentina:-
Aug 07th, 2014 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“In accordance with Article 38, paragraph 5, of the Rules of Court, the Application by the Argentine Republic has been transmitted to the US Government. However, no action will be taken in the proceedings unless and until the United States of America consents to the Court’s jurisdiction in the case.”
How does one go about questioning someone is is a no show? I guess this is good for votes back home, knowing they will not ceed authority to the ICJ. But Kirchner followers will not know any better.
Aug 08th, 2014 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hmmmm.... the Chinese guy @79 claims “Britain is obsessed with us” when he is referring to Argentina. .. haha tobi can't keep his story straight.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0twat.
If he is lying about himself I would suggest everything he says is lies.
zero credibility.
The twat.
Ask the Chinese guy where he is from?
Aug 09th, 2014 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tobi where are you from......I mean Alistair where are you from in China? Where do you reside at this very moment?
Well its all over. The US has told the Argies to 'jog on' in regards to the ICJ.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yet again Argentina Gov plans come to nothing.
ilsen they knew this all along. Why else would they take it to the ICJ? Now they can continue to whine to they followers that they continue to we attacked. No closure in their feeble minds. Exactly the same reason the Falklands are not taken to the ICJ....there would be no closure and they could not continue to justify whining......The Falklands are ours.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah, I knew all along it was a sideshow that would come to nothing. Now Cristina will claim the USA was scared to show up, or some similar rubbish, and her adoring fans will lap it up.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 04:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The suckers.
Exactly. For the mad bitch with botox it is a gift to continue seeking pity......have they no self esteem or dignity and pride? Rhetorical question.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Emanates from bilateral agreements between China and Argentina that obligations will be led by the law and the courts of England.
Aug 11th, 2014 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Minister Axel Kicillof gave banks and Chinese companies finance investments in Argentina a similar international legal protection to which the government questioned the vulture funds. The annexes to the treaties were signed, the Economy Minister agreed special jurisdiction to chinese firms and accepted the intervention of foreign courts to settle any potential disputes. This arises from the bilateral agreements which stipulates that obligations will be governed by the law and the courts of England.
It also provides that any arbitration shall be in the International Chamber of Commerce, based in Paris.
Kicillof agreed to step down as “irrevocable and unconditional” objection raised to any future international tribunals chosen by Argentina and China.
The assignment of judicial sovereignty is explicit in loans for retrofitting “Belgrano Cargas”. The 1071 decree is already known and the extension of jurisdiction is located in the leafy Annex 400 folios. But the concessions would be similar in loans for hydroelectric megaprojects Santa Cruz and other financial agreements to be signed today with Xi Jinping methodology would have the same format as that included in the leonine agreement with Chevron.
The current argentine government hides the text because its diffusion entail a high political cost. Delivering Kicillof judicial sovereignty contradicts the “story” Cristina Kirchner's own against the clauses that were granted in foreign debt in favor of the courts of Manhattan, where the conflict is settled with vulture funds. Cristina made this a flag and questioned the previous governments that accepted external courts, like Thomas Griesa.
@100
Aug 11th, 2014 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Agreed
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