MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Griesa praises Pollack's 'great skill” and reveals he directed the use of 'default'
U.S. District Judge Thomas Griesa on Monday turned back an effort by Argentina's government to remove the court-appointed mediator in the dispute with creditors that triggered a 'selective default' situation by the country last week. He also revealed that the default condition was at his direction and was 'accurate'. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesHopefully JP Morgan and others buy the bonds .
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0@1 Good idea, get others to clear up the mess you made, while denying it was your mess in the first place and complaining that the definition of mess is all wrong.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina, the stroppy teen of the international community.
This might happenhowever, I wondering how to sell this to your credit department. You pay 1.6bn upfront and then negotiate with a government who is not willing to pay anywhere near this amount. There is no upside and you are effectively jsut taking the loss for the government...
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0The mess was created by Griesa.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0No, that is the propaganda line from your government. Argentina imposed (not negotiated) a 70% haircut on its debt and the holdouts have used the courts to declare that invalid under the terms of the loan. If you don't like the terms don't take the loan.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 08:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0The mess was created by the Argentine government which was elected by the Argentine people. Take some responsibility for a change. Another trait of teenagers - nothing is ever their fault.
4. How could a thinking person come to that conclusion? Griesa's ruling was affirmed all the way through the USA's highest courts.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0It is legal and it stands.
”..Blackman said the statement (of Pollack) undermined Argentina's position in financial markets. ..”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0HAHA, which position could be undermined? the arg position in the markets is that down that no mine would fit underneath or be great enough to destroy it. you can only take a bulldozer and shift the whole sh.. away.
@5
Aug 05th, 2014 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A British complaining about someone imposing on others is like a fox complaining that a cougar is eating the hens.
The British impose on other for centuries and have never taken responsibility for it. If they did, they would fix the entire middle east by giving trillions in reparations, as well as a few more dozen trillions to the black descendants all over the former British colonies. And a few trillion to India to boot.
Shirkers of responsibility, no finder example than the British.
@8 how far back do you want to go? Should Italy apologise for the Romans? The Danes for the Vikings?
Aug 05th, 2014 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Alternatively you could stop the whataboutery and concentrate on the here and now.
Ah... how far back should we go? That is the question.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who are you, me, or anyone to decide that? Either we all must atone for past sins, or we all must be expurgated of them. This is black or white otherwise it is strictly arbitrary.
Most of that Argentine debt in default was from when the dictatorship NATIONALIZED the debt in the mid 70s. Prior to that, all that debt was private.
So we are talking about debt that is in many cases a half century old. Ditto the Paris club. Why should Argentina pay it, when European nations use the “how far back clause” to excuse them from paying reparations, or even issuing a meager apology?
That's why Argentina should not pay, it is very old debt. Only 25% of it is probably younger than 20 years.
And an added caveat, aren't capitalist so viscerally against nationalization? That owners of those ASSETS that are nationalized should be compensated?
If so... why aren't LIABILITIES treated the same way????? I'd like to see greedy capitalist answer that! Argentina NATIONALIZED private debt. Shouldn't the prior holders of the debt now be compensated NEGATIVELY? Or in other words, a positive of a negative is a negative.
Why aren't you all demanding that the prior holders of the debt compensate Argentina ?
“Most of that Argentine debt in default was from when the dictatorship NATIONALIZED the debt in the mid 70s. Prior to that, all that debt was private. ”
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So FUCKING what! It is your shithole of a country be it a dictatorship or a democracy......the continuity still exists as does the country. You did not want to pay it? You should have started an entire new country.....The UK just finished paying off WW2 in 2006. Took a long time but they PAID IT. As should Argentina. They took someones money and those someones must be repaid.
@11
Aug 05th, 2014 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are a corporate socialist and you make me fucking sick.
You like the rich to be bailed-out when they make the wrong business decision, you want to poor to starve and have all taken away from them.
You want the rich to be compensated for nationalizations, but you are completely ok for the poor (the tax payers of a country) to take over the debts of the rich.
What a disgusting, stygian mentality.
Alistair Nigel (Toby/trolley)
Aug 05th, 2014 - 05:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What a strange warped view you have.
I see no evidence of the rich being bailed out anywhere other than in your warped fantasies.
No allowing banks to fail was in the savers and investors interests (many of whom were far from rich), and the price paid by the tax payer will be returned when the banks are reprivatised. It was a business decision to protect the savings, mortgages and investments of millions of everyday people.
GM was bailed out to protect the Jobs. not the rich. Had GM failed the 200,000 direct employees and 5x that in indirect employees would have lost their jobs...overnight. this would have bankrupted the supply chains and the contagion bought Chrystler and probably Ford down too....so all in all about 3 million jobs worldwide.
Argentinas poor wil suffer far more bacause of the default than if their government had managed their economy competently. I am sorry you are too thick to see it.
These are the people YOU elected....and they corrupt beyond measure.
Argentina has assets far beyond its debts. This is the point that Stevie and his retardation fails to see when he discusses the UK and US debts. National debts are prefectly servicable if the government has any competence. Argentinas has none.
Argentina should be one of the greatest countries on earth. Take your pick, natural resources, services, financial centre, tourism, trade....it could be a world leader in any of them.
Peronism and corruption (not the west) is the cancer that flows through the veins of Argentina, and rather than cut the cancer out, the people cheer it.
Actually banks should always be allowed to fail.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0WHat should happen is that then, an investigation should ascertain why the bank failed. And most importantly, at what point in the lifespan of that bank were the decisions that can directly be linked to the failure occurred.
You then round-up all the top executives at the time, and make them an offer they can't refuse: either they go to jail for life, or they turn in all their assets, to be distributed among the savers. If that does not satisfy the owed amounts, then they must become indentured servants, and work for free to restore the bank (or a new one), until all deposits are covered. Either that or sit in a cell for life or until some other entity covers all deposits.
I have a feeling you will be against that, but that is exactly what you demand of countries in default. If it is OK there, why not with corporations??? Especially banks? Since you people always like to claim stock and bonds are different, well how about simple deposits? Shoudn't those be repaid in full too and if the bank cannot MAKE them, no matter how long it takes?
#12 tobi take your daddies dick out of your ass it is affecting your brains.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I could give a rats ass about what a countries does with he debt they assume. What I do care about is whether they pay it back or not as they promised.
Face it tobi you loath people with money, be it super rich or the very comfortable. Yet they paradox you live in needs the super wealthy to squeeze out money to pay for the poor RATHER then providing opportunities for the poor to NOT be poor.
One thing I can tell you is if I had to chose where to be poor it would be in the USA versus Argentina as I've seen both, something you can't say.
I have not problem with countries who default on their debt. But I want to see an overseer, as in a business or personal bankruptcy. Until then......Argentina will always be a deadbeat borrower, shifting blame to everywhere but where the blame lays.
13,15 Captain and Monkey M.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the fundamental error that the Argentinians and their trolls would have us swallow, is that the Hedge Funds are taking money from the poor.
In fact, the money that was LOANED to Argentina, to lift up their economy and their poor, has been pocketed by ARGENTINIANS, the ruling elite and their wealthy cronies, they are the ”Vultures'.
Argentina is required to RETURN the money to the LENDERS, 500,000 of which are Argentinian Middleclass individuals.
Who is left on the hook?
Not the Argentinian elites who stole it,
but the poor and middle classes who will feel the pinch of unemployment, business failures, and social services collapse.
14. This is exactly what happened to my best friends family's business in Argentina. The business failed over the various economic collapses (80-90s) but the screwy way your bankruptcy/unemployment laws work the family also had to give up all of their personal assets to cover salaries, insurance etc for over a year while people were not working until there was nothing left.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They never had the money to reestablish themselves and thereby were never able to hire people back.
This is why your country will continue to fail.
You are poorer and dumber than your parents who I am sure poorer and dumber than their parents and on and on it goes.
Until you are looking up to Paraguayans wonder why they're so happy and rich.
Silly stupid boy
They are all fucking crooks Troy. They stole my wife's private pension which was worth well over US 100k. Now she gets a statement with a 14000 peso balance.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These things do not matter to titti boi tobi as he doe snot work.....he's a duffer suckling his mommies titti's. I can hear you slurping from here tobi !!!
Idiot child Tobias from Mendoza (under the pseudonymikon 10 Alistair Nigel (EUian)) spouts the following nonsense:
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Most of that Argentine debt in default was from when the dictatorship NATIONALIZED the debt in the mid 70s. Prior to that, all that debt was private.”
If that is correct, then the dictatorship lasted until the end of 1995.
Argentina's public debt stock, 1990-2001 (million US dollars)
...... Bonds ... Total
1976: 8,000 app
1983: 45,000 app (perhaps only 40,000)
1990: 57,582
1991: 58,841
1992: 58,745
1993: 63,746
1994: 72,200
1995: 87,772
1996: 97,105
1998: 112,358
1999: 121,877
2000: 128,018
2001: 144,453
Cibils and Vuolo: “What can we learn from Argentina's Recent Debt Crisis and Restructuring”
http://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1612&context=sjsj (p. 760)
When the dictaturship ended, the sovereign debt was a maximum of US$ 45 billion.
At the end of 2001 it was US$ 144,4 billion.
How did the dictaturship make that happen 18 years after it was removed and substituted by a democratic government?
@16 “
Aug 05th, 2014 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not the Argentinian elites who stole it,
but the poor and middle classes who will feel the pinch of unemployment, business failures, and social services collapse.”
Isn't that what everyone is complaning in the first place. Griesa's ruling may be just, but fair it is not. Of course, it is probably not his fault. Usually it is the poor and the middle classes who are in the hook, not the rich, and not only in Argentina...
MagnusMaster, Griesa's ruling (as affirmed by the full United States Court of Appeals) is according to the law.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Never confuse law with fairness. Laws are usually meant to be fair, on occassions they cause unintentional harm, but they are the laws.
Fortunately the good judges follow the laws, or you might find yourself in front of a judge who dislikes your hairstyle and sentences you to 4 years in jail for spitting on the sidewalk.
Spot on Don. Justice and fairness are not one of the same.
Aug 05th, 2014 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17
Aug 07th, 2014 - 05:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0So what you are saying if you are a rich person and go broke, you must be forgiven to repay all your debts, because you may “create a job”. But if you are poor, screw you pay it all back.
That's your philosophy and that of Captain Poppy huh?
Quite sordid sense of fairness you both got.
It was excellent justice that your best friend had to give every single cent to those he screwed over by bad business decisions. Next time he should make better ones.
@Lucdeluc -
Aug 07th, 2014 - 05:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0“This mess was created by Griesa.”
Spoken like a True Apologist for the Corrupt Republic of Argentine Deadbeats. The fact remains that this mess was created by the Argentine Deadbeats and nobody else.
The only thing that you can blame the Judge Griesa of doing is following the letter of the law, dotting his “I's” cossing all the ”T's applying New York contract law within the U.S. District Court for the SDNY. Most of Griesa's rulings were Affirmed by the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeal, And The United States Supreme denied cert., 7-1 (abstension by Sotomayor), deciding that these cases did not merit yet another rehearing, of another rehashing of the very straightforward principles exhibited in this cases.
NML Capital v. The Republic of Argentina has more than run its course through YEARS of litigation within all levels of the United States federal courts since 2008. Argentina unilaterally defaulted on its OBLIGATIONS in 2001. Argentina unilaterally set a “TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT” cramdown “offer” of ~ 30 cents on the dollar. Argentina told its CREDITORS of the busted (defaulted) debt that it would NEVER pay the bond holders if they didn't “take it.” Pretty frightening stuff for a widow and/or orphan.
The Republic of Argentina has had the benefit of true Due Process under the laws of the United States. The Republic of Argentina AGREED that jurisdiction over these bonds would fall under the laws of the State of New York, wherein venue would lie in the SDNY. Argentina received every benefit (that it wanted) for the now busted bonds. It's what Argentina ASKED FOR, and AGREED TO. They demanded these terms and by golly, they got them.
The holdout creditors hold “Pari Passu” bonds prohibiting Argentina from selective repayment to those who “play ball.”
And Judge Griesa is to blame for ALL THIS MESS . . . exactly how??
And as an aside, Elvis (aka kicillof). What is the deal with the “haircut” (using the term loosely), as well as his lambchop.
24: thanks for the informative post. Now I actually comprehend after all the confusing articles I've read.
Aug 07th, 2014 - 07:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0It would seem logical that Argentina pay. Then it can return to capital markets and borrow to finance its infrastructure and resource development.
@ 25 Lucdeluc
Aug 07th, 2014 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0unfortunately for the Argentine people it ain't so.
Of the huge debt (144+ billion US dollars) in 2001, originally meant to finance infrastructure and develop the country, a huge proportion can be found in offshore accounts owned by corrupt politicians. If Argentina borrows on the capital markets, these accounts will get fatter.
#23. Titti boi tobi, we all know you love jumping to outrageous conclusions based on the lack of empirical knowledge. So I ask you to show me where I stated my philosophy to make that leap of faith conclusion? You should gather some experience before you end up like kicilloff when you become a man like he almost is.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#26. Is there hope at the end of the tunnel for Argentina?
Aug 11th, 2014 - 03:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 28 Lucdeluc
Aug 11th, 2014 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0If I were able to predict that, I wouldn't spend my time on e.g. the Mercopress forum, I would be busy filling in racing and lottery coupons.
It all depends on the Argentine populations, which unfortunately to a high degree is very badly educated, and thus have serious problems understanding what really happens in their country.
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!