MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
US reject the ICJ as an 'appropriate venue' for addressing Argentina's debt issues
A spokeswoman for the U.S. State Department said the United States would not permit the International Justice Court in The Hague to hear Argentina's claims that U.S. court decisions had violated its sovereignty. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesThere may be trouble ahead.......face the music and dance.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 08:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Comment removed by the editor.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 08:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Wow the US rejecting Argentina's request to bad mouth in at the ICJ.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 08:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course the Argentine government knew that this was going to happen, so they'll now run around telling the dupable Argentine public about American imperialism, and about how they're the 'victims' of it.
All so predictable. Yawn.
I hope NML start seizing assets soon. Then the Argentine people will realise just how isolated they are on this issue, instead of believing the usual rubbish of 'the whole world backs Argentina', despite all the evidence to the contrary.
It's a madness, a madness
Aug 09th, 2014 - 08:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ha, ha, ha.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0We told you so.
The few cash dollars will be gone VERY soon. Confiscating US company 'profits' waiting to be repatriated? £10 will get you a penny.
Crash and burn you arseholes.
They call it madness .......I'm about to explain that someone is loosing their brain.......
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l49tDwFSdbo
5. Pretty sure there will be another forced U$ to Peso exchange. Anyone who has any U$ in an Arg bank account is very foolish.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0The BCRA float is almost gone, the poor guy running it has tried to quit and CFK won't let him.
What a crazy place.
Received some emails this morning from contacts in Ecuador, Colombia, El Salvador, Panamá and Honduras - all highly amused at the predicament that Argentina has caused for itself.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0A “book” has been opened on whether la Kretina is still in office by Christmas.
@2. Yeah, here's a sign. Argieland could pay the holdouts about US$2 billion. The “stay” can stay until it does.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0@4. Told you so. the United States only accepts the jurisdiction of that court on a case-by-case basis. What sort of cretin would think that the U.S. would permit a respected member of its judiciary to be pilloried by something like argieland. Judge Griesa is THE MAN. About time argieland learned that there are times that even a “country” has to knuckle under. I'd say its options are now pretty shot. Judge Griesa has covered virtually every option. The United States has just covered another one. What's argieland going to do now? Ask Russia to declare war? Worth remembering that much of South America could find itself under blockade in the near future. Putin thinks he can evade U.S. and European sanctions by getting stuff from South America. Until the U.S. deploys one or more of its fleets. Technically, South America is the concern of the U.S. Fourth Fleet, but I'd expect to see the Third and Seventh Fleets.
#9. Sounds like your experiencing a psychosis.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why does Argentina wastes its time and its precious little dignity on such foolish and worthless endeavors?
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina never had much support in the USA and whatever tiny bit of goodwill they had before the lies and screeching is gone.
The adults are tired of the nonsense coming out of these teenagers.
Pretty soon they're going to get a slap that they won't soon forget.
I hope Singer starts to seize Arg assets that will be embarrassing to the nation.
I wonder why he's taking so long?
Is he just giving them the rope to hang themselves?
Is he waiting for Griesa to allow the other holdouts to pile on?
The ICSID ruing on the Italian Bondholders?
All coming soon.
Vulture politician CFK has stolen enough to pay off Argentina's creditors. Why not take it out of her hide?
Aug 09th, 2014 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's better than Brazil and China to withdraw its international reserves deposited in the United States before they confiscate. Brazil and China have $ 4 trillion in FED.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These Western are desperate for money. They are capable of anything to steal the poor Third World.
From the USA, no public statement, no press conference, no official briefing. ... just a very polite “Do F*ck Off Dear” via EMAIL !!!
Aug 09th, 2014 - 12:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0just a friggin email. Didn't even waste a sheet of headed notepaper.
Bhaaahahaha! Bwahahahahahah!!
Crying with laughter. ...
Didn't they say that if the US rejected ICJ jurisdiction, then the Onus was on the US Government to provide an alternate method of dealing with their judiciary. In essence, “we went to the ICJ to sort this out, but because you refuse this route, it is your responsibility to deal with the problem of your legal system!”
Aug 09th, 2014 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You could not make this up, talk about a transference of responsibility.
You signed on the dotted line, now act like responsible adults and face up to your commitments. Crossing your fingers when you lie, is not a recognised legal defence.
Argentina sent the bonds to NY to be sold and they were, to conform now under the laws of the US.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cristina isn't thinking. She should dismiss the little boy and get a man in.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Could it be she's a cougar?
Aug 09th, 2014 - 01:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Never mind Evita, she's Argentinas answer to Mrs Robinson!
@ 13 Argentina borrowed, they then pay back including interest, no riggling out Just Pay! disgusting country.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 01:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 18 reality check “Could it be she's a cougar?”
Aug 09th, 2014 - 01:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You mean 'A dirty old woman'?
Whoooooo!
Aug 09th, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I sayyyyyy.
Matron!!!!!!
Ding! Dong!
Rotting Roadkill,
Aug 09th, 2014 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We feel your pain.
Perhaps you should file a direct appeal with the Intergalatic Court for Justice and Truth on Nebulon 7 and ask for a directed verdict of reversal, a summary judgement and damages for tortuous interference. There, a jury could also reverse time and make each member of the administration up to 2” taller.
For information on court procedures for CJT, contact representatives from Marvel Comics.
Your gringo amigos salute you!
@20. 21.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Leslie Phillips, my favourite comedy actor, still alive bless him.
Not sure he would ascribe his raunchy use of Ding Dong, to her though!
A little help here... I've followed this for quite sometime and understand the basic issue, but I'm curious about a couple things.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 01) how much total debt is involved?
2) what percentage represents the holdouts position?
3) is there a clause in the “settled” contracts guaranteeing them they automatically participate at the level of the best deal anyone gets? Ie will a deal with the holdouts automatically apply to everyone?
Thanks
Yankeeboy.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's one for you.
24. Depends on how you look at it but most would say +/- U$30B in renegotiated bonds are outstanding. Holdouts are NOT recognized in that total, Original Debt for holdouts +/- U$10B again depending on what you count. Yes if they negotiate before Jan 15 the renegotiated bonds could be eligible for the new terms.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#13
Aug 09th, 2014 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So it's official Brazil and Argentina are 3d world !
#27
Aug 09th, 2014 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By the original cold war definition they were/are “third world” as they were unaligned with either NATO (First World) or the USSR/PRC (Second World).
Because many of the Third World countries were underdeveloped “Third World” became synonymous with “poor countries”.
The UN Development Programme splits countries into “Very high”, “high”, “medium” and “low” development based on HDI. Argentina is just rated as “Very high” though I imagine it will soon drop. Brazil is lower, in the middle of the “high” group.
At least the US did suggest an alternative course of action for Argentina, to negotiate with the hold outs.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It seems all roads lead to a negotiated settlement, the one thing CFK & Co will not do.
This is clearly not going to go away anytime soon, the only question is how much damage it is going to do to the Argentine economy in the meantime.
What's to negotiate.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0These bonds were issued under NY jurisdiction and waving sovereign rights. No one compelled them to take that route?
They did what every party to a contract does if there is a disagreement, they took it to the court with that jurisdiction and they lost their case, end of.
They are just a bunch of desperate people, seeking to avoid the very terms they signed to.
They were party to a legal contract, now they should abide by it.
Accept for one thing, they are a bunch of, dishonourable, dishonest, corrupt, egotistical thiefs.
Fairly representative of their nation though, I will say that.
Investment (FDI) in Argentina will dry up completely. The govt will keep printing pesos (until the Venezuelans start snapping them up for use as toilet paper). Massive inflation will result.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Outlook: Severe to chaotic, with a high chance of civil unrest spreading across the regions.
@10. Sounds like you're an incurable psychotic. Why don't you do the world a favour and die?
Aug 09th, 2014 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@20. You mean “a slag”.
@28. How could shite be rated as “very high”?
@32 perhaps the answer is that it stinks to high heaven?
Aug 09th, 2014 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where's the surprise??
Aug 09th, 2014 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RG land - always in a rush to use the International Courts of Justice but not for their Great Malvinas Myth.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@35
Aug 09th, 2014 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you surprised by their decision, they do not have a leg to stand on.
My opinion is that the US sees Argentina as too big to fail 'again', the ramifications for the whole of Latam I suspect are huge, also for the US.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think the Argentines know this, that is why they are pushing their luck as far as it will go.
See if their brinkmanship will pay off, they are either being very stupid or very clever.
@37
Aug 09th, 2014 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think I know which. They are very stupid. Argentina is not big only 40 million and most on the breadline.
The rest of Latin America is quite capable of existing without the influence of the pariah state of Argentina.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brasil, Chile, México and Colombia, particularly, together with Perú, Panamá and, perhaps, Ecuador do NOT need Argentina for their prosperity. Indeed, my experience of having lived and worked for many years in Latin America is that Argentina is dismissed by most Latin Americans as being totally irrelevant in a practical way.
Strategically speaking the USA has good relations with Mexico, Colombia and Chile. It doesn't 'need' Argentina for military, economic, diplomatic, logistical or any other reason at all. There is nothing Argentina produces that cannot be found elsewhere.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Which is maybe why Obama did not use his right to over rule Griesa on Foreign Policy issues.
They don't care. The rest of Latin America won't care unless it directly affects them. Which it won't very much. Sure trade levels will drop dramatically but the serious players are more interested in the markets of the EU, US, China and the Far East/Australia. Equally they will not want to be associated with the pariah state Argentina.
As I have said before. Expect the K's to keep kicking the can down the road until the end of year before they ever try and negotiate any kind of deal.
Aug 09th, 2014 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The pesos will probably be 17 to $1 by the eoy.
It needs to be to try and combat inflation which is rampant here at the moment.
While the banana republic talks to the hand, the rest of latin America advances. They see this as an opportunity to advance at Argentina's expense. They act as if they support Goofy and the gang, but they are laughing themselves silly. Self destruction is painful to watch, but sometimes it a
Aug 09th, 2014 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0wakens up the uninformed dead.
popcorn anyone
Aug 09th, 2014 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@43
Aug 09th, 2014 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Already got mine!
:)
Settling in to watch the great economic train wreck!
@42
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where is the rest of Latin America advancing? They certainly hide it very well if they are.
Or maybe the advancing is at a microbially slow rate.
But I guess that's better than retreat, which is what EUialand and NorthAmoland have been doing since 2006, a full lost decade with no sign of stopping the retreat. In all socio-economic categories EU/US are in full retreat.
Useless good for nothing inferiors!
@45
Aug 09th, 2014 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Try Chile. Peru and Colombia for Latin Am.
Germany in the EU, and UK in Europe.
Today in Mercopress:
“The International Monetary Fund recently forecast that growth in Britain, a member of the European Union but not of the Euro zone, would outpace the world's major advanced economies this year.”
I understand that in your country, China, things are really slowing down and all the money you lend to Argentina and Venezuela will disappear and won't be paid back.
:)
Popcorn?
You are so laughable. The UK is still not even back at 0 from the point of negative growth, that means you have not recovered your lost GDP and its 8 years later!! . Germany has lower average salaries today than at any time in 45 years, and under-employment is rampant. There are cardboard cities in Frankfurt and Munich.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Chile has followed the same policies 41 years and still is duking it out with Argentina that has been retreating for 40 years. Colombia, please. Peru, don't make me laugh.
You need to do some research. I stand by what I said. You shouldn't try to argue about things you clearly don't understand.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is about to self-destruct and you say, but EU/US have problems too? Doesn't change the facts that you will probably be homeless soon. Will Cristina care for you then?
Back on topic: How is that ICJ thing working out for you?
About to self-destruct? Based on what? I know you will provide no facts to back it up, only farcical platitudes. And you try to lecture me on things beyond understanding?
Aug 10th, 2014 - 12:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm going to be homeless? Based on what? Do you have evidence of my personal situation to back it up?
Do you people READ the monumental stupidities you guys write...
What a bunch of retards.
Well, we know that you are not Chinese, or even EUian (whatever that is, no-one else uses that). So you are a liar. I have no intention of trying to educate you, I see many have tried. Ultimately that is your responsibility.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 12:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina is in default you idiot. Soon you will be running out of fuel and foodstuffs. Wake up! Things are gonna get real bad over the next year.
So I was reading Zaffaroni's comments regarding Griesa and his position in the judiciary and it got me to thinking. Virtually every statement he made regarding him was materially incorrect. Not matters of degree or shades of color - simply wrong.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Similarly, much of the descriptions Cretina and Elvis give regarding not only the structural but functional aspects of various foreign institutions is obviously lacking or again totally incorrect.
Others in the administration sometimes exhibit slightly more accuracy but often substantially less on the same topics.
Now in addition to being humorous to those of us who are slightly better informed it got me to thinking - particularly since their endless string of aberrant behavior has now been demonstrated - to them - to be unproductive to the point of possibly wrecking an already fragile economy:
What is the deal?
Are they - the entire regime - this incredibly misinformed?
Is there a education/intelligent quotient anomaly between Argentina and the Northern Hemisphere? Things can happen in nature. North Koreans - for example - are now measurably shorter than there South Korean counterparts and this occurred in a span of only 60 years.
Or are they simply so used to bending the truth without an independent third estate that they know that no one will hold them accountable?
Come on! Some of the stuff that they are spouting is so obviously fabricated that the world can barely keep a straight face while they are delivering it. It's almost certain that the Bema administration finds this humorous (and ironic) since they previously tried to intervene on their behalf. And I am almost certain that Griesa has never seen a circus like this one in his entire career. Most of the Wall Street pundits are standing there slack jawed waiting for the next stunt out of BA.
What gives? Ignorance? Unabashed misrepresentation? Psychosis? Delusions?
The floor is open. PLEASE enlighten me. lol
47 actually we have grown over and above the pre crisis. We are also fastest growing in G7. Whats it like in BA at the moment. Why do you follow Cfk are you sado masochists.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 01:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0@50
Aug 10th, 2014 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nah, there won't be any shortages due to default. It is a technical default which is a totally different animal.
And not even in the full default of 2002 did “foodstuffs” run out. How can they run out when Argentina produces them and in quantities to feed 200 million people, and potentially 600 million?
@52
No one believes your fabricated figures. You manipulate currencies, you swindle mortgages the world over, you price-fix interest rates, and you allow corrupt fiscal paradises like Jersey, Cayman Islands, etc. The UK has an atrocious record in the last decade of financial dishonesty.
@49
Aug 10th, 2014 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0I refer you to the above post @51 although I am not sure about the 'nature' aspect. North Koreans are stunted due to poor diet and lack of healthcare and low-quality housing in a cold country. Which comes down to the economy and the dictatorship.
As for “education/intelligent quotient anomaly between Argentina and the Northern Hemisphere? ”, well I think this is partly due to
a) lack of investment in education
b) constant bullshit propaganda from the Gov
c) culture - la viveza criolla
not sure about nature, hmmm... (it's the old nature vs nuture argument)
Otherwise Chronic makes some very salient points.
Willful ignorance and a 'victim' mentality perhaps?
@54 Totally with you. It is the difference in caloric intake. The gene stock was and still is intact.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 01:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0#51 political , economic and religious institutions. The best of these exist in the Northern hemisphere which broke away from Catholicism through the Protestant reformation. . Basically, Latam and Southern Europe have missed out on 500 years of reform. All you need to do is visit Argentina which inherited Catholicism ,Spanish and to an extent Napoleonic political institutions and you can trace the roller coaster ride from one crisis to the next. Then visit Australia. Similar to Argentina both huge land masses with an abundance of natural resources. Australia has similar migrant groups to Argentina plenty of Italians, Greeks , Indians, Chinese and more but they all live under the Westminster system and the rule of law. No military coups , fascism, experiments with socialism or communism. No economic defaults. Corruption nullified. The influence of the Catholic Church negated.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0The lucky country indeed!
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 55
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0The European immigrants, and previously the Conquistadors, had all the same advantages/oppotunities as the those in the USA and Canada. So what went tragically wrong? How many defaults in the past 200 years? 7, 8 ? only Vnzla has more at 11 and they have oil too!
Must be a cultural attitude.
Possibly religion played a role? protestant vs Catholic (original sin concept anyone? - it's not my fault etc?)
I wouldn't put it down to race as both Spain and Italy have been hugely powerful in the past, and equally I detest racists as they are fools.
So we return to a cultural attitude. In conclusion, in this case I will go for 'nurture' over 'nature'
it's cultural.
Meaning, it's their own damn fault and they should start 'owning' the problem and deal with it rather than scweaming and shwouting and foot-stamping.
The USA response to their ICJ attempt was entirely proportionate. They asked some minion to tap out an email. That was how seriously they took it.
Laughing stock of the World - Argentina.
56 Thank you for responding!
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0I hate to think that it's that simple but with regard to Argentina - which I happen to actually like and have an affinity for - I can't rationalize the motivations.
When you don't understand something or you are illinformed or inexperienced the easiest solution is to brand a perplexing behavior as simply “irrational”. I know that part of Peronism is a reaction to harsh military regimes and possibly even influenced by colonialism but beyond that I find the K's actions inexplicable. Is there a longshot that the true insiders know something that is otherwise unknowable? Like maybe that the reserves have been manipulated? Or there's a lucrative Vaca Muerte deal already done with the Chinese or Russians?
In the absence of undisclosed special conditions - I don't get it.
MORE INPUT - PLEASE.
“We do not view the ICJ as an appropriate venue for addressing Argentina's debt issues, ”
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hmmm no ICJ grandstanding for argemtina.
Oh well, I guess Hectoring Hector and his counterparts from Venezuela and North Korea will be paying the UN SG an impromptu visit.
But maybe not, the SG is in NY City isn't he?
Interesting article from 2011
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.stephenhicks.org/2011/04/22/argentina-hong-kong-and-the-psychology-of-belief/
@59
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Looks like I cross-posted at the same time with Lucdeluc, who takes my suggestions a little further down the road, but in a very similar route, adding in some very relevant info such as the political & legal aspects.
We all know INDEC manipulates the 'official' figures, The IMF has refused to accept them in the past and venerable publications such as The Economist simply laugh at them.
As for the Chinese and Russians, I am no insider but it is common knowledge that these two countries simply wish to exploit the vunerable who won't question their individual dubious Foreign Policy eg. Tibet/Ukraine etc.
I think the Argentine Gov is making it worse by jumpimg into bed with them. They will regret it in the morning....
:)
More input @56
Aug 10th, 2014 - 02:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Northern Europeans “royalty” were pulling fleas out with their nails out of each other's hairs inside their peat holes on the ground which they called “homes”, which also doubled-up as defecation recepticles.... All while even destitute slaves in Southern Europe had ice-cold, pure water flowing into public fountains from acqueducts that reached even over 100km plus in length, plus free access to public restrooms with functioning plumbing, and baths for cleanliness, plus free bread and wine, and access to products from everywhere in Europe, Asia, and Africa in actual shopping malls, plus theater, plus mail, plus the finest road network in world history.
Ditto China for the most part.
@61 Lucdeluc
Aug 10th, 2014 - 03:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Really interesting link. Thank you for contributing to the thread.
I notice that the Hong Kong Economy took a dip after the UK pulled out after honouring its leasehold arrangement but we can put that down to a crisis of confidence. Since recovered.
It is interesting to compare the graph with Argentina's steady decline and recent chaotic performance.
@63
what is your point? “even destitute slaves” ?? they were not so destitute if they had all the benefits you describe. However, they were still slaves. So obviously could not purchase any products as the definition of a a slave is forced work without salary.
Hardly a recommendation of a civilised society. Do you now promote slavery?
You know you are actually agreeing with @56 Lucdeluc? Because the Northern Europeans created the modern world whilst the Southern Europeans have made little progress, Is this why Brazil had the highest slave population in the world?
Ditto China? Your professed place of birth?
I ask you one question. Why are the populations of Lat Am and China so keen to learn to speak English instead of Italian/Greek or the languages of the slaves they took from Africa and Europe?
61 Excellent link.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 03:20 am - Link - Report abuse 062 Thanks!
All your of commentary is significant. I think native cunning (misdirected/nonfunctional in this case) is part of it as is bravado (pride) as are the historical facts but I can't help but think I am missing something in this otherwise inexplicable behavior.
This is going to end badly for Argentina and like a train wreck it's fun to watch until you realize that there are some innocents in there behind the drunken locomotive engineer.
#65. You can't understand how they could be so delusional. Have you met someone who is Schizophrenic or Bipolar? Imagine your wearing a blue shirt. You look in the mirror it's blue. It's 100% blue. Now someone tells you it's a red shirt.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 03:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0You think they are just joking or indirectly telling you they might not like your blue shirt, it would look better red. Then others tell you that in fact your wearing a red shirt. You ask strangers on the street. “ What colour is my shirt?” red they all reply.
You run in a panic to the nearest mirror. What do you see. Yourself clearly wearing a blue shirt. Who has gone mad you or everybody else?
“I'm Schizophrenic, and so am I!”
Aug 10th, 2014 - 04:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0@65
Aug 10th, 2014 - 04:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0No, you are not missing anything. It is what it is. Inexplicable behaviour. That is why the rest of the world finds it puzzling. Some intelligent commentators can explain some of the background but most reasonable people just shake their heads in despair. The majority just shrug and walk away.
This is a mess of their (Argentine) own making. Therefore their responsibility. A concept they seem to struggle to comprehend.
As @66 says, for the population it is hard to tell fantasy from reality sometimes.
Maybe the Moon is made of cheese.... You must consider the local political/media enviroment. Serious lack of independent thought available to the masses.
Equally I pity the innocents, but I do feel that unless they are more willing to take responsibility they can't complain when their own exploited arses are sold downthe river by corrupt politicos. The country has had 200 years to figure it out but the mistakes keep repeating.
Cultural norms? hmmm.... maybe so.
#63. Your describing the Age of Angiquity, before clericism set Rome and Byzantium into the dark ages. There was hope in Italy and Spain when the Renaissance flourished but the counter reformation bludgeoned any hope of Southern Europe joining the Northern Europens in a Golden age of Industrial and military power. The Protestants in England translated the Bible into English and thus began the education of the masses. The Catholics keeping the texts in Latin, and the repercussions are still felt to this day with elderley people in parts of Southern Europe being illiterate.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 05:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Where does Alistair Nigel (EUian) get all his information from? Pretty well all his allegations about matters outside Argentina seem to be either false or years out of date.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 06:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe he is a member of the propaganda section of La Cámpora being paid to be a troll here on Mercopress?
@59 CFK is definitely extremely irrational and has a really warped ideology, if you can call it that. I'm pretty sure she knows a lot of stuff we don't as well. There is a lot of stuff the Ks kept hidden for years, and a lot more that will come to light in a decade or so.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 06:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Also keep in mind that the default earned her some approval points so she will carry it on as long as it is politically redituable.
As for why Argentina is so FUBAR, it's simple: the elite are all gangsters and speculators. They know they're wrong, but they don't care about saying obvious BS that nobody falls for.
#63
Aug 10th, 2014 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0The difference being that the N.Europeans PROGRESSED over the two thousand years to which you refer. The Hispanic/Latinos kept to their serfdom and transferred it to S.America.
“We need: better economic education, better moral education, and a political mechanism to break the hold of entrenched interests.”
Aug 10th, 2014 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Great end-point but can anyone believe that Argentina will be remotely capable of any of this while the Peronists are around?
One undoubted difference I have seen in over three years in Uruguay between First World and not, is the fact that the majority of workforce do not have the work ethic within them.
Even self-employed tradesmen lack it utterly but moan to me how things are bad for them but they only work six hours a day by choice (and no, they are not working at other jobs).
“No Money Pepe” admitted it to the world and then got slapped in the local press for saying it, even though they KNOW it is true. Is that not denial?
@73
Aug 10th, 2014 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tell me, do the Argies still have a siesta at lunchtime ( 4 hours ) when I was there.
66-74 Thanks to all for the input/feedback.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The people definitely own this as they keep returning this caliber of politico to power.
So every Peronist is a self serving opportunist at the least and a significant segment are outright looters? Is some version of this correct? Do the K's have a franchise on this? Is there any altruism on the Argentine political spectrum?
In the U.S. there are multiple examples of very flawed leaders who accomplished some great thing in spite of their character. Nixon in China. Johnson on civil rights. Even Lincoln is revealed to be of clay, sometimes motivated by base emotion and occasionally petty. And then you have some pretty decent people who are simply misdirected - Carter and Humphrey and Jerry Brown being perfect examples.
Chicago politics and its patronage system has some commonalities with Argentina particularly in playing urban interests against rural and while the bottom is similarly disenfranchised and perhaps marginalized - it all somehow works.
What is wrong with Argentina culturally? What is its fatal flaw?
@33. Distinct possibility. I'll never be able to check as I have a whole list of countries I'd never go to. Most of latam is included.
Aug 10th, 2014 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@37. There's nothing clever in or about argieland.
@41. Wonder if they remember that the interest keeps mounting up every day?
@45. Don't you just wish you were that inferior. Hey look, there's a whole people in Iraq that are facing genocide by a mad, fanatical murderers. The US and UK are dropping humanitarian supplies. Where's the argie air farce? Who's inferior?
@47. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2705361/UK-PLC-FINALLY-BOUNCES-BACK.html See? You don't research. “Britain has finally emerged from its worst post-war downturn after growth of 0.8% in the second quarter of 2014 took the size of the economy above its pre-recession peak.”
@49. You have inflation heading for 40%. Next year, it's negative growth. You over US$100 billion. Who's a retard?
@53. Oh look, I found an answer. You're a retard!
@63. You're referring to the Romans. That puts you in the “ignorant slave” category. Let's move on a couple of thousand years. How's Italy doing? How about that little jewel, Spain? They are nowhere. Much like you. By the way, the free bread was called the dole. It was doled out to try to avoid riots. When will argieland be doing anything similar?
@ 51 chronic: “Are they - the entire regime - this incredibly misinformed?”
Aug 10th, 2014 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not in the least. All their lies are for domestic use. The unwashed 25-30 millions who can barely read and whose information is limited to what they see and hear in state controlled TV and radio.
- - - -
Why didn't Argentina develop like e.g. the US with roughly the same mix of immigrants?
A major cause is that when the millions of immigrants arrived in Argentina, there was no free land to create family driven farms. A small number of peninsular and creole families owned all land in enormous estancias. As opposed to the US it was almost impossible to establish a landed middle class. Indentured worker was the only possible career.
peninsular: born in Spain
creole: born in Argentina
77 Thank you!
Aug 10th, 2014 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0--------------------------------------
How does Elvis Kissoff morph the regime's current payment status with regard to this clause, into - 'We're not in default'?
Anyone?
“Notwithstanding the foregoing, Argentina’s obligations to make payments of principal and interest on the New Securities shall not have been satisfied until such payments are received by registered holders of the New Securities.”
@ 74 golfcronie
Aug 10th, 2014 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Never been to TDC though my next door neighbour during the summer, a lovely Argentine family with three business in BsAs (was five until last year) tell me they have to work around what their staff need so THEY go without a formal lunchtime.
I had a quote for doing some new bricking work and was told it would take three weeks which in the UK was probably correct so I agreed the price TO DO THE JOB and to be done in four payments, one payments per one third done and the final quarter upon satisfactory completion. I provided materials from my favourite baracca, invoiced to me.
They started in the second week of January (the summer) and finished in MAY! Nice people, very good bricking skills but would rather take the wife to work, collect the kids from school and Uncle Tom Cobley and all than work.
They said they worked from 10.00 until 16.00 (the famous SIX hours) but they take turns to bugger off to their nearest favoured mini-Mercado and get sandwiches and bottles of beer which they then sit around consuming. In fairness when they arrived late in the morning they worked beyond 16.00.
Of course the longer they took the more the weather disrupted their work: they didn’t have any other work so they took the time off.
They kept asking for money against the next tranche (because they had spent ALL the last lot) and it was clear that something had to be paid just to keep them onsite, so the three quarters ended up as six eighths but I never relented on the final payment, which stayed at 25%.
The finished job is great though, but never again with that bunch. Interestly one was a Chilean, one an Argentine who had spent 15 years in Spain until the lack of work sent him back to SA (but not TDC) and was the best 'set-out' guy I had ever met; the other two were Uruguyo.
78 chronic: “How does Elvis Kissoff morph the regime's current payment status with regard to this clause, into - 'We're not in default'? ”
Aug 11th, 2014 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Professional liars do that all the time.
@75. Two things to read up on. Start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viveza_criolla Read it. Feel it. Look at the Characteristics. Every single characteristic is displayed by argieland in its attempt to evade its debts. Go on to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viveza_criolla Forget the Pre-Columbian era. Consider things from the Spanish colonial era onwards. Authorised by a corrupt pope, spain believed it had a divine right to the New World. Are you beginning to see it? Months ago, various argie commentators on here were claiming that argieland's claim to the Falkland Islands stems from the papal bull “inter caetera” in 1493. Latinos are big on delving into history when they were of some importance. Spain relies on the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht on the subject of Gibraltar. Of course, back in 1493, no-one except Spain and Portugal recognised the papal bull. Argies conveniently “forget” that small point. Back in the days, argieland has always acted as though that “divine right” actually existed. There are a couple of genocides in argie history. There was the known “Conquest of the Desert” that started in 1875. But there was also the prior “Conquest” that started in 1833. Imagine that. Thousands killed. Many more thousands forced out of their lands. Check out the maps of argie expansion in the Wikipedia article. A picture of argie imperialism. Rifles against spears. If you research, you'll see that argies are still trying to wipe out the few indigenous people left. Many reports of police killings. There is no rule of “law and order” in argieland. The “government” itself is corrupt. It is solely a mechanism for keeping “the people” quiet whilst stealing their money. Leaving aside any undisclosed stashes, CFK's “personal fortune” has increased from US$0.5 million to more than US$16 million in just 11 years! At the same time, argieland's inflation approaches 40%, its growth is going negative and it has massive debts it refuses to pay. What else do you need?
Aug 11th, 2014 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Emanates from bilateral agreements between China and Argentina that obligations will be led by the law and the courts of England.
Aug 11th, 2014 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Minister Axel Kicillof gave banks and Chinese companies finance investments in Argentina a similar international legal protection to which the government questioned the vulture funds. The annexes to the treaties were signed, the Economy Minister agreed special jurisdiction to chinese firms and accepted the intervention of foreign courts to settle any potential disputes. This arises from the bilateral agreements which stipulates that obligations will be governed by the law and the courts of England.
It also provides that any arbitration shall be in the International Chamber of Commerce, based in Paris.
Kicillof agreed to step down as “irrevocable and unconditional” objection raised to any future international tribunals chosen by Argentina and China.
The assignment of judicial sovereignty is explicit in loans for retrofitting “Belgrano Cargas”. The 1071 decree is already known and the extension of jurisdiction is located in the leafy Annex 400 folios. But the concessions would be similar in loans for hydroelectric megaprojects Santa Cruz and other financial agreements to be signed today with Xi Jinping methodology would have the same format as that included in the leonine agreement with Chevron.
The current argentine government hides the text because its diffusion entail a high political cost. Delivering Kicillof judicial sovereignty contradicts the “story” Cristina Kirchner's own against the clauses that were granted in foreign debt in favor of the courts of Manhattan, where the conflict is settled with vulture funds. Cristina made this a flag and questioned the previous governments that accepted external courts, like Thomas Griesa.
@75 “So every Peronist is a self serving opportunist at the least and a significant segment are outright looters? Is some version of this correct? Do the K's have a franchise on this? Is there any altruism on the Argentine political spectrum?”
Aug 11th, 2014 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, every Peronist is a self serving opportunist. There are very few altruists in our political spectrum, anyone with an ounce of morality gets eaten alive by the sharks before he can even get to be mayor of a small city. That's why most young people who want to help join NGOs instead of political parties. Today if you even join a political party you will lose all your friends and not even your family will talk to you, because only criminals get into politics.
“ What is wrong with Argentina culturally? What is its fatal flaw?”
I wouldn't say there is a single fatal flaw but a perverse system that is almost impossible to change and extremely powerful people who want to keep the system going. The Peronists are pulling all of the strings in the country and prevent real change. Even if someone who is not a Peronist gets elected, the Peronists can easily overthrow anyone they want. And unfortunately everyone outside Peronism plays into the electoral charade instead of doing real work to make sure they can don't get overthrown if they get elected.
@82 Please stop spamming, nobody cares.
@83
Aug 11th, 2014 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It might happen that you don't care. But I DO care. I was trying to get a response from any of the Peronists who usually writes on this site and usually bores us with their stupid anti-imperialist and anti-British diatribes.
What are they going to write now? How will they justify this?
Those who had been despising the British institutions are now the ones who run accepting this. It is funny...isn't it?
stupid anti-imperialist and anti-British diatribes
Aug 11th, 2014 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0[-Agreed,-]
they know nothing else, but what they are brainwashed to say,
84 pgerman
of course you care, and why not, you have an interest in Argentina paying its debts and climbing out of its current mess, but the anti British are just using us as an excuse,
we agree with you. Argentina could do a lot better than the plastic bottle they have now..
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