MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Judge Griesa declares Argentina in contempt of court, but deferred financial penalties
New York district judge Thomas Griesa declared on Monday Argentina in contempt of court, due to the country's actions in attempting to change debt jurisdictions as a result of the ongoing judicial conflict with holdout investors presided over by the US magistrate. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesArgentina played poker with Griesa and lost. Now what?
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now, I am not going to say “I told you so...”
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0( but I did )
and as for Gollum:-
Timerman said a contempt of court order against a foreign country would be “inconceivable” and against international law
Oh, he was fine when it was Judge Griesa said that they didn't have to pay... Now that they do, he is an “interference in Argentina's sovereign affairs”.???
Mind you, making sense has never been Gollum's strong point now has it?
Hey Argentina! Listen up!
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This ruling ISN'T illegal under international law. This is what happens when you waive your sovereign immunity in order to get a better deal when loaning money. YOU signed ALL of your sovereign immunity away in this matter. NOT NML, not Judge Griesa either.
You gave New York the JURISDICTION over you. YOU ARGENTINA DID THIS - NO ONE ELSE. You only have yourselves to blame.
So now you're in contempt of court. That'll help you secure investors in your country won't it?
Face up to the truth. You defaulted. You have REFUSED to negotiate in good faith as ORDERED by Judge Griesa.
You have twisted and turned (like a twisty turny thing) in some vain hopes of escaping. You have wasted the Argentine taxpayers money by crawling around on your knees begging for someone, ANYONE to help you, and like a drowning man you have grasped at anything coming your way (such as the UNGA vote etc...) in the extremely vague hope that they can somehow overturn this or make it all go away.
Well guess what, Argentina, the UN CAN'T help you, in any way whatsoever. The ICJ has already turned you down because they don't have jurisdiction in this case.
And why don't they have jurisdiction? Because you, Argentina, SIGNED IT ALL AWAY for better interest rates, probably assuming that no one would make a ruling against a sovereign nation.
Well guess what, when bluffing at poker (good analogy Iron Man), it's best not to try and buy the pot, especially when the other guy has a Royal Flush, as you just end up looking like a fool and broke.
Guess what Argentina? You look like a fool and you are broke.
What next?
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Elementary my dear Iron Man ;-)
Argentina is going to lose again and again (at least until the locals allow Ladriprogresistas to run their country).
Interesting reasoning by the Whacky Leadership.
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentine Government specifically agreed to having these bonds issued under U.S. law and obligated themselves to follow U.S. law.
So now they don't want to follow U.S. law only because it actually requires borrowers to repay loans...
I'm sure John Kerry and any other adult that the Whacky Leadership comes whining to can see through their little game...
#2
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tinman is more slimy than Gollum. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of criminals. Oh the humiliation...
I love it!
PS it's much more fun posting on the other side.
I can not wait to see how they respond to this.
Sep 29th, 2014 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Timermann threatened them with consequences, now big mouth, let's see what action you follow those threats up with.
(4) Acchiappaladri
Sep 29th, 2014 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In my humble opinion, you are completely sbagliato....
As a mater of fact, the political implications of this case have evolved behind my wildest dreams...
Auguri...
El Think
@ 8
Sep 29th, 2014 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dreams ???
Nightmares I suppose.
Thank you for your “Auguri” (= good wishes) : as long as they are sincere they are always welcome :-)
And I heartly return my “Auguri” to your country, especially to the millions who did not support the K governments and now have to suffer from their (K's) predatory and idiotic policies.
I really miss Think's eternal support of the good and righteous Ks. I wonder why you don't hear it much any longer?
Sep 29th, 2014 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Another example of the good and kind peoples of The Argentine:
http://tn.com.ar/sociedad/salvajes-incidentes-y-heridos-en-un-enfrentamiento-entre-taxistas_534043
Funny its right in front of their Congress you'd think they'd have a police or two around. Wouldn't ya?
BTW, just a little reminder I was the only one saying they'd end up in Contempt. The only one as far as I remember.
20/1 right around the corner.
Bang Zoom Pow
Right in the kisser
Thank you NY Courts.
:)
“a state is responsible for the acts and omissions of any of its organs,” ,tinman
Sep 29th, 2014 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0i think its safe to say from tinmans own admission that argentinas mess and continual economic and financial suicide is the sole responsibility of his own government and i use the word ”Government” very loosely.
It's strange Timerman is being proactive about the ICJ........it's not as if Argentina has a good reputation for abiding by decisions made by international arbitrary courts.
Sep 29th, 2014 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0OK Timerman let's see what you got BOY !!! Lay it on us !!! Call ghost busters??
Sep 29th, 2014 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bajo Cero1.5: In Griesa's court you would never be found guity of contempt. Hell, you're not even worthy of his disgust. Were you admitted to the NY bar - even on a provisonal basis - you would still be unable to get a drink as they don't accept your filthy, rotting, worthless roadkill pesos.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 01:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Frenchy: Are you still confused about your identity(s)?
But Argentina doesn't fear to be in contempt.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 03:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Everything is just fine - we won!
http://i.embed.ly/1/display/resize?key=1e6a1a1efdb011df84894040444cdc60&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FByux1CzIAAAw9lV.jpg
Another nail in the coffin of ''La Decada Ganada''.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 03:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0God, i should have left the country when i had the chance.
Politics of the Imperial Japanese Army.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 04:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Chritina and her Kamikaze Government.
Banzai! Banzai! Banzai!
“Timerman said a contempt of court order against a foreign country would be “inconceivable” and against international law”
Sep 30th, 2014 - 05:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps ... perhaps ... or is he a pervert?
.
Appendix 3. The terms of the bonds
“…… The republic [i.e. Argentina] has in the fiscal agency agreement irrevocably submitted to the jurisdiction of any New York state or federal court sitting in the Borough of Manhattan … the republic has hereby irrevocably agreed not to claim and has irrevocably waived such immunity to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such jurisdiction … the republic has hereby irrevocably agreed not to claim and has irrevocably waived such immunity to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such jurisdiction … ”
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/41.html
Oh wow! A whole country in contempt of court. Is this unprecedented?
Sep 30th, 2014 - 06:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Does this mean that every single Argentine citizen is now in contempt of court?
Does this mean that everyone in Argentina, in the eyes of the US Court, is now a criminal?
Oh. Cristina! What have you done?
How will they try to wriggle out of this one?
Sep 30th, 2014 - 07:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Legend has it that Johnson took his guitar to the crossroads of Highways 49 and 61 in Clarksdale, Mississippi - where the devil made him music in exchange for his soul.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 10:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0A Faustian pact remains a Faustian pact;
it's no use telling the devil “I didn't really mean it!”
@8. Well, well, well, Twinky. Switched from German to Italian, have you? You do know that they surrendered even sooner? Crucified by the 'Anglos'. Do you have an avatar that goes with 'mater' instead of 'matter'? And its evolved 'behind' your wildest dreams? I suppose you like it from 'behind'. Bet you never thought so many people would challenge your drivel!
Sep 30th, 2014 - 11:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0@10. Sorry. a number of 'us' said argieland would end up in contempt. Just saying. Judge Griesa is obviously dealing with this in a measured way. Come on, judge, take the money from the bank.
@19. I know you're being witty. I imagine the contempt ruling would be applied to the party in the 'case'. The Argentine Republic. The 'government'. But wouldn't it be fun if every argie citizen entering or in the U.S. was arrested and tossed into prison? There is no 'proportionality' in contempt proceedings. I'm sure that the U.S. would be quick to set up 'labour' camps. Dozens of camps. Tens of thousands of 'detainees'. Alaska might be a good place. Perhaps they could be 'ransomed'.
@22
Sep 30th, 2014 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are sure it is Italian, not some obscure Italian dialect spoke in the remote areas of southwestern Chubut - a bit like the special Tutonish dialect spoken by so many.
21
Sep 30th, 2014 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The devil can be beat...especially in Yankeeland....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDm_ZHyYTrg
I just wonder where this lot are going to end up: lunch in the Whitehouse I imagine.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And I am not joking.
24 Voice
Sep 30th, 2014 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Steve Vai -v- Jo Satriani (some say) - sounds like Ry Cooder on slide to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD4o3VDnftI&list=RDTD4o3VDnftI#t=246
Much better.
But it won't help CFK much unless she's a guitar virtuosa.
Hear, hear the old wives' club glossing over Argentina's imminent demise .
Sep 30th, 2014 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cheers! Finally, our dear Judge Griesa is going to get Argentina! “Thank you, NY courts,” enthuses yankeeboy.
And guess what, hopeful bunch: Nothing is going to happen--again. Argentina is going to make its payments through its new agent. So long, BONY!
But hold your horses. Griesa's last desperate move to show he is still in control will have no consequences.
The guy has been impacted by age and it shows. He also has a reputation for being lazy and on the side of corporations. Besides badly wanting the vultures to get their money, he barely understands what he is doing: had to--twice--give permission to the Citibank “just for this time only” to get the money the judge had no authority to block in the first place.
And guess what: Most previous Argentina governments would have easily quelled the fire by promising to pay X amounts of money--in the future, with another government in place. Cristina is not doing that, much to her credit.
27 Enrique Massot
Sep 30th, 2014 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“He also has a reputation for being lazy and on the side of corporations. Besides badly wanting the vultures to get their money, he barely understands what he is doing”
Please back up that claim with some evidence / reference material. And I don't mean “The gospel according to argentina”
oh and by the way:-
“And guess what, hopeful bunch: Nothing is going to happen--again. Argentina is going to make its payments through its new agent. So long, BONY!”
I don't need to tell you that you are wrong, you already know you are don't you?
Is it me or did your post at 27 reek of desperation?
@27
Sep 30th, 2014 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As an Argentine, albeit one comfortably ensconced in Canada, do you consider yourself to be in contempt of court, and therefore a criminal?
Or have you naturalised and sworn allegiance to HM The Queen?
Hmm....
do let us know old bean....
We all love a champagne Socialista. ..
3 Lep
Sep 30th, 2014 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope you're English and of the write age bracket to appreciate it when I say your post was, for me, the equivalent of Ian Botham hitting Dennis Lillee, off his long run, back over his head and out of the ground for 6. Not that I've come across any Trolls on here even close to the class of Dennis Lillee but I hope you get the idea.
Highly entertaining; thanks.
27. Enrique, you are a very stupid commie. They'll never pay enough bondholders through Banco Nacion to matter, I kinda doubt they'll pay anyone within the 30 day window. Citi has to prove those are Arg law bonds they are paying before they pay. So that may not happen either.
Sep 30th, 2014 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You remind me of Think, never been right about anything.
It floors me someone can get as old as you are and be wrong so often.
You must have worked for the Gov't or something you've not done much on your brains.
@ 27 Enrique Massot
Oct 01st, 2014 - 04:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0please tell us how you can be so ignorant.
Argentina cannot pay through any other bank than Bank of New York Mellon for the simple reason, that they are the only ones who have an inventory of present day creditors.
If the bank handed the inventory to the Argentine government, the bank would be held in contempt by the court.
As other Argentines you are under the false impression from your government's mentiroso propaganda, that it all hangs on Federal Judge Griesa. It doesn't. Judge Griesa's ruling was affirmed in all relevant parts by the United States Court of Appeals, in NML Capital, Ltd. v. Republic of Argentina, Argued July 23, 2012 - Decided October 26, 2012, following which the US Supreme Court decided not to hear the case, because they considered Griesa's interpretation to be correct.
United States Court of Appeals' ruling:
”CONCLUSION
For the reasons stated, the judgments of the district court (1) granting summary judgment to plaintiffs on their claims for breach of the Equal Treatment Provision and (2) ordering Argentina to make “Ratable Payments” to plaintiffs concurrent with or in advance of its payments to holders of the 2005 and 2010 restructured debt are affirmed.”
http://www.shearman.com/~/media/Files/Old%20Site%20Files/secondcircuitdecision110512.pdf
http://www.shearman.com/~/media/Files/Old%20Site%20Files/secondcircuitdecision110512.pdf
#28 tooold:
Oct 01st, 2014 - 04:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0See how Judge Thomas Griesa is rated:
http://www.therobingroom.com/Judge.aspx?ID=1407
Read transcripts of the judge during hearings:
http://www.therobingroom.com/Judge.aspx?ID=1407
#31 yankeeboy:
The Cold War ended some 23 years ago and Senator McCarthy has been happily dead for 57 years. Calling someone a commie is so passé it makes you look ridicule. Do me a favour: educate yourself a little. You've been reading Mercopress for too long.
See how judge Griesa is rated.
Oct 01st, 2014 - 05:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tell you what I see, I see WHO is rating him!
PMSL
WTF did a losing litigate ever rate the judge highly?
DUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@33
Oct 01st, 2014 - 08:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0See how Judge Thomas Griesa is rated:
What a joke of a site, some of the comments by those voting -
“Griesa should be dead. ”
“This Judge ashames the whole US Justice system - start to realize why the entire world hates the US.”
Enrique Massot, why don't you answer the question:
Oct 01st, 2014 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0please tell us how you can be so ignorant.
- and stupid: “See how Judge Thomas Griesa is rated:”
By whom and when?
Are you actually Idiot Child Tobias in disguise?
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Oct 01st, 2014 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hash: SHA1
Nacion Fideicomisos has confirmed that it has received the money for the pars.
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Enrique, You never said what brought you to Canada 40 yrs ago? Was it because you fled for your life from the rightful authorities for being a Marxist Terrorist? Do you think your worthless commie skin was really worth saving?
Oct 01st, 2014 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Kinda doubt it.
Anyhoo, Banco Nacion now has some money to hand out to bondholders.
Now what?
Argentina will be declared in default on another class of bonds in eom Oct.
Cross default
20/1
@37 british bomber
Oct 01st, 2014 - 12:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So what, who is going to get any of it.
I love the way you think that your post are so significant that you have to go through the charade of using a PGP signature.
I'm old, what's a PGP?
Oct 01st, 2014 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@40
Oct 01st, 2014 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@40
There are several forms.
PGP by Authenticity, means that you can ensure a message was sent/written by the person you think it was, and that it wasn't modified by a third party.
All pretty unnecessary for posting rubbish on an open forum.
http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/Pretty-Good-Privacy
#38 yankeeboy
Oct 01st, 2014 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are confused. This space is not for personal conversations. You can find many online forums for that purpose.
“Comments should refer to article,” the Mercopress policy says.
So there is no purpose in debating personal histories here, in spite of what many do. Sticking to opinion on articles will allow readers to just look at the quality of the comments.
I previously posted that the declaration of contempt by NY Judge Thomas Griesa does not have any effectiveness against a sovereign country, but does respond to the strategy of the vultures who want to use any available ammunition against Argentina.
It is true that the situation is unprecedented and that many unknowns remain. However, what is remarkable is the government's will not to choose the easy path of caving in to the offensive of the vultures and their allies.
Be sure that Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner's political courage will make history as one of the most significant steps towards ending for good our shameful dependence on the USA.
Enrique.....do you refer to them as vultures because they pick away at dead, sticking, rotten heaping piles of shit.........such as Argentina?
Oct 01st, 2014 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina borrowed almost 100,000,000,000 and decided not to pay it back. The world calls that stealing you rotten, heaping pile of sticking shit. When you steal like that you will make enemies....you rotten heaping sticking pile of shit!!
You and unfortunately a few decent Argentine's will be on the losing end of this RG created mess.
If Argentina had been honourable and paid the original debt none of this nasty mess would have come to pass.
Oct 01st, 2014 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is where the ultimate responsibility can be found.
Enrique Massot, you still hasn't answered the questions:
Oct 01st, 2014 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0please tell us how you can be so ignorant.
- and stupid: “See how Judge Thomas Griesa is rated:”
By whom and when?
Are you actually Idiot Child Tobias in disguise?
I really hope Argentina can win this one. I know it's a tough one, but Cristina can do it.
Oct 02nd, 2014 - 01:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why?
Because the vultures do not deserve to win. They prey on nations that have fallen to the bottom, buying junk bonds for pennies on the dollar, then using the courts as collection agencies to upgrade them to 100 per cent of the bonds' face value. They used the same mechanism to siphon millions of dollars from the most impoverished countries in the planet. That's one of the most evil forms of wild capitalism, and has nothing to do with free market. That is why some countries have outlawed the practice.
Griesa has the dubious honour of having made an unprecedented interpretation of the pari passu clause in order to sink Argentina and its successful debt restructuring process. He may have been blinded in his zeal and overstretched his authority by attempting to impact on 40 million people to benefit a group of greedy, parasitical financiers. Wouldn't want to be in his shoes, contempt or not.
I have zero sympathy for those sort of schemes and am hoping Paul Singer and his friends break their claws on Argentina, bitterly disappointing their admirers.
@ 46 Enrique Massot
Oct 02nd, 2014 - 03:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0please do not expose your ignorance more than you already have.
1. How many cents did the hedge fonds pay on the dollar?
2. How many cents did the Argentina pay on the dollar on the forced restructuring?
Who is the vulture?
(1. More than 50. 2. Less than 30).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hans Hume, experienced with national debt and Argentina’s default tells: ”I co-chaired the Global Committee of Argentina Bondholders leading up to the country’s 2005 exchange of its bonds for better terms. I have been involved in more than 20 country debt restructurings and I had never before or since encountered representatives of a country who were more duplicitous, arrogant or who demonized the representatives on the other side of the table more. Argentina presented a unilateral offer that only 76% of the creditors accepted (only 63% of international investors accepted), despite our attempts to suggest a modification of their offer that would have been less expensive for the country in the long run and would have garnered over 90% of the bondholders to accept the offer.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/argentina-debt-default-lawyers-court-pay-clause
$46 tobi the tranny.....spoken like to true heaping, pile of rotten shit you are. No wonder vultures circle corpses like you.
Oct 02nd, 2014 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0' I have been involved in more than 20 country debt restructurings and I had never before or since encountered representatives of a country who were more duplicitous, arrogant or who demonized the representatives on the other side of the table more.'
Oct 02nd, 2014 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hans Hume (#47)
Nothing could say more or say it more succinctly.
#47 Doggy:
Oct 03rd, 2014 - 03:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0What Mr. Hume calls duplicity, arrogance etc: you know what we call it?
We called it loyally representing the interests of your country.
What's bad for Hume is surely good for the Argentina people!
The Kirchner government negotiated aggressively in 2005 and 2010 to obtain the bondholders to accept 30 cents on the dollar and so what!? What else could you expect from a government that actually is working for its people?
On the other hand, Kirchner did not tell bondholders to go and screw themselves. Instead, he said “the dead can't pay.”
The debt restructuring process allowed the country get on its feet again and faithfully pay creditors, based on the 70 per cent haircut. It was a matter of sharing the pain instead of inflicting it only on the debtor.
Then Argentina went on to growth its GDP 6 per cent annual average, expanding its domestic economy, improving the lot of the poorest and expanding the middle class, improve health, transportation and education, etc. etc.
We had too many governments in the past--almost all of them--that made friends with the powerful and screwed their own people, reaping great commissions and other gifts when signing agreements in the process.
Not Nestor--Not Cristina. That is why their enemies--domestic and foreign--want to topple Cristina at all prices. They got to stop this 'bad example' from propagating. Too late my friends!
@ 50 Enrique Massot
Oct 03rd, 2014 - 07:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Then Argentina went on to growth its GDP 6 per cent annual average”
Pleeeease! the figures are from INDEC which also told you that the annual inflation in 2009 through 2013 was less than 11%. If you believe any financial “data” coming from INDEC, you need a brain - not a new one, but your first.
“It was a matter of sharing the pain instead of inflicting it only on the debtor.”
So if I owe you 1,000 you find it fair, that I pay you only 290 and say “it's a matter of sharing the pain”?
When you have finished a month's work you find it fair that your employer pays you only 29% “as a matter of sharing the pain”?
If you own a shop, and some of your customers are poor, you find it fair that they only pay you only 29% of the price “it's a matter of sharing the pain”?
etc. If you do, then I am looking for someone to paint my house in and out for 12,000 pesos of which I keep the 8,520.
Kirchner *did* tell bondholders to go and screw themselves. Every non-Argentino who took part in the so-called negociations agree, that there were only pseudo- negotiations, Kirchner told them they could get 29% of their pension savings or nothing, as has been proven lately.
Argentina borrowed the money they defaulted on.
At the end of the dictatorship in 1983, Argentina's sovereign debt was at most U$S 45 billion (possibly only 40 billion).
After 18 years of democratically elected governments, Argentina's sovereign debt was U$S 144 billion.
Who wasted the money, the Argentines or the bond owing pensioners?
In december 2001 there were more than half a million retail investors, today there are still more than 50,000. Given the general porteño attitude (as opposed to what I experience in the Argentine provinces, wher the majority are hosnesto), I can only regret that the UK did not waste a nuclear bomb or two on Buenos Aires in april 1982.
#51
Oct 03rd, 2014 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I can only regret that the UK did not waste a nuclear bomb or two on Buenos Aires in april 1982.”
I can only be glad people who are able to write this sort of sentence are not in charge of making decisions. Keep them busy typing comments in Mercopress to prevent any damage!
Enrique Massot,
Oct 03rd, 2014 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#52 taken out of context and not understanding black humor.
you still haven't answered the questions:
1. By whom and when were Judge Thomas Griesa rated?
Federal Judge Griesa's ratings:
Rating:10.0, The most amazing, intelligent, and kind judge I've ever argued before.
2/26/2010 12:28:46 PM
---------------------
Rating:9.0, One of my favorite judges in the SDNY to appear before, a true gentleman. He works hard to get the right result.
He doesn't get it right 100% of the time, but he sincerely tries to do the right thing.
1/25/2013 11:54:46 AM
---------------------
- and my absolute favorite: “Griesa es Argentino: Falló y subieron bonos” in http://www.ambito.com/diario/noticia.asp?id=519570
- and you also still haven't answered the questions:
2. How many cents did the hedge fonds pay on the dollar?
3. How many cents did the Argentina pay on the dollar on the forced restructuring?
4. Who is the vulture?
- the new one(s) compressed:
5. will you accept to be paid only 29% of what you are owed “as a matter of sharing the pain”
- - - - -
“What Mr. Hume calls duplicity, arrogance etc: you know what we call it?”
My experience with porteño dates more than twelve years back, thus I call it viveza criolla = if you can get something from theft, lies and cheating, you are a porteño hero.
- - - - -
“expanding the middle class” - are you completely off your rocker?
During the last five years I have seen the Argentine middle class shrink a lot because Cristina has thrown several hundred billion pesos to buy votes without a corresponding increase in production, thus causing a wildly running inflation which was about 18% in 2009, probably ending above 40% this year.
In order to survive financially, the middle class buys real estate if they can afford it, and buy electrodomesticos and hoard detergents, sugar, etc. if they are less affluent.
#53 Doggy Rap
Oct 04th, 2014 - 04:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0So you are asking me by whom and when were Judge Thomas Griesa rated?
Come on. You have been the Robbing Room judge-rating website, so you know what I am talking about. However, you picked up a couple comments about Judge Thomas Griesa of your like and very dishonestly inserted them to support your points.
In case you haven’t bothered to read it, the Robing Room is a site by lawyers for lawyers whose mission is to provide a forum for evaluating federal district court judges and magistrate-judges, owned and operated by North Law Publishers, Inc., a New York Corporation, whose principal shareholders are attorneys. Happy now?
So, Hon. Thomas P. Griesa’s Average Rating is 4.4 – Measured out of 58 ratings. Some examples here:
Criminal Defense Lawyer
Comment #: 21390
Rating:2.0
Comments:
This judge should have retired a long time ago. I tried a criminal case before him, and it was unbelievable. He was a second prosecutor doing the government's bidding. He is the worst judge ever.
Criminal Defense Lawyer
Comment #: 21811
Rating:1.0
Comments:
Much like the president that appointed him (Nixon) Griesa obviously believes he is above the law. He has dragged out a copyright/fair use case that should have been decided by summary judgment at the onset of the lawsuit and managed to drag it out to over three years.
Civil Litigation - Private
Comment #: 5377
Rating:2.2
Comments:
Should have retired long ago and should be ashamed to continue to collect a paycheck. A judge fully worthy of contempt.
Note I did not pick up comments by Argentines, for obvious reasons.
In regards to the debated numbers of Argentina’s economy in the last decade, I am quoting excerpts from the WORLD BANK’S COUNTRY PARTNERSHIP STRATEGY FOR THE ARGENTINE REPUBLIC FOR THE PERIOD 2015-2018
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2014/09/10/000470435_20140910104430/Rendered/PDF/813610CPS0REVI0C0disclosed090100140.pdf
“After t
The ABA ranks judges. The only true measure is how many rulings are overturned by Appellate or SCOTUS. Robing Room is a Lawyers joke room. Besides even at that a 5.8 out of 10 by emotional postings. Reading the comments, they are almost all about the Argentina case. Gee.....I wonder whom posted those.
Oct 04th, 2014 - 01:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As I said....the ABA is the real ratings from real lawyers and overturned cased are the gold standard. But it's nice to see a place for losing lawyers to whine like an Argentine.
1 judge.
Oct 04th, 2014 - 03:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 040 million Argentine criminals.
This guy's got cojones!
@ 54 Enrique Massot
Oct 04th, 2014 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I picked a couple of ratings to show how unreliable this kind of rating is. Anybody can add their own rating, thus it is worthless.
You still havent answered my questions. I don't wonder why, because reasearch + honest answers will show that you have realised that Argentina is the problem.
New: 6. Who wasted the money, the Argentines or the bond owing pensioners?
“... the [Argentine] plan stipulated that its terms were not subject to negotiation; and on February 9, 2005, the Argentine Congress enacted a law barring the executive branch from reopening the offer or reaching private settlements with non-participating creditors that differed in any way from the original offer.
...
When this crisis hit, the Argentine government’s strategic planning for default was already well advanced. To insulate itself from efforts by foreign creditors to attach assets abroad, the government quietly had shifted its reserve and other financial assets from the Deutsche Bank in New York to the Bank of International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland or to banks in Argentina. To the same end, it had set up special trusts and other intermediary arrangements to carry out its offshore payments and arranged to pay government employees abroad through direct deposits in Argentine banks or payments sent in diplomatic pouches.
Argentina’s sovereign debts had increased by two-thirds from 1995 to 2001, rising from $87 billion to nearly $145 billion.”
Source: Robert J. Shapiro & Nam D. Pham: “Discredited – The Impact of Argentina’s Sovereign Debt Default and Debt Restructuring on U.S. Taxpayers and Investors” http://www.sonecon.com/docs/studies/argentina_1006.pdf
Investors who participated in restructurings in 2005 and 2010, receiving 25 to 29 cents on the dollar.
http://www.sonecon.com/docs/studies/argentina_1006.pdf
It's a blog for pissed off people and the majority of those posting opening with all Argentine debt posts. Gee .....I wonder if they were Argentine? ABA ranks judges AND lawyers for nomination to judge.
Oct 05th, 2014 - 01:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Precisely Captain Poppy
Oct 05th, 2014 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lost case = Griesa idiot! won case = Griesa genious!
- -
@ 54 Enrique Massot
Your link to: World Bank Country Partnership Strategy for the Argentine Republic - FY [20]15-18 (7 August 2014)
“Today, more than 40 percent of the Argentine population remains at risk of falling into poverty.” (p.10)
”Figure 3. A Decade of Falling Poverty and Inequality, 2004-12
This survey is collected quarterly by Argentina’s Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Censos (INDEC), ...” (p.16)
INDEC also told you that inflation in the years 2009 through 2013 were below 11% annually. Are you that naive?
If we were to believe INDEC's data as shown in Figure 3, poverty in 2012 were app 12%. Are you that naive?
INDEC is right, a person can easily live on 6 pesos a day.
A family of 4 only needs:
1 liter of milk .. $ 10,20
1 kg bread ....... $ 20,00
1 kg tomatoes .... $ 19,00
1 kg of meat ..... $ 72,00
--------------------------
Total ...... INDEC $ 24,00 or $ 6 per person
Now let's look at World Bank Report No. 48476-AR, Period 2010-2012 (6 May 2009).
“Growth and inflation. Growth is expected to decline sharply in 2009 and 2010, from 7.0 percent to a range of 0-1 percent. Recent activity indicators have all shown sharp declines during the last quarter of 2008. Official figures place inflation at 7.2 percent in 2008, whereas the GDP deflator is of 19.4 percent .” (p.16)
Elsewhere 1:
2011.04.21: Argentine official statistics show poverty is down 9.9% in second half of 2010
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/04/21/argentine-official-statistics-show-poverty-is-down-9.9-in-second-half-of-2010
2012.09.07: Argentina’s dubious poverty line: The six-peso diet
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/04/21/argentine-official-statistics-show-poverty-is-down-9.9-in-second-half-of-2010
2012.09.27: Según el INDEC, con 13 pesos al día alcanza para dejar de ser pobre. Are you that naive?
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/04/21/argentine-official-statistics-show-poverty-is-down-9.9-in-second-half-of-2010
2013.02.09: Poverty in Rosario, Argentina
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/04/21/argentine-official-statistics-show-poverty-is-down-9.9-in-second-half-of-2010
Wow! Information relied by The Economist and by Clarin! Why, of course! If some statistical information does not meet your mindset, there will always be another one that makes you happy.
Oct 05th, 2014 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The last report from the World Bank contains mostly positive information on the Argentina of the last decade, however you can always pick up things like “there is risk for people falling back to poverty if things continue to worsen.” Of course! But, did you notice the part “back” word on it?“ That means people have stepped out of poverty. But you won't see it, because you will only see the words ”falling“ and ”poverty.”
In any event, it is true that Argentina's reality has lots of room to improve, but you can choose to see the glass half full or half empty. The vulture issue is just one of the things to solve.
However, this has to be done while protecting the national economy. Definitely not paying them what they want. Now, the vultures and their allies are in a totally new situation, because Argentina has not only refused to comply, it has counterattacked in the world forums. The vultures now need to stop this before they are further exposed to the world eyes.
Argentina represents the almost unique case of a country coming back from the bottom in just a decade, while countries like Spain, Greece and Italy are only sinking deeper because they are following the traditional recessive recipes. I'll come back to those World Bank numbers, not in any hope to convince this group of white knights here; just to make it known the other side of the story.
So why are so many international companies pulling out of Argentina?
Oct 05th, 2014 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They have no political agenda.
Follow the money.
That is what I say.
Enrique Massot
Oct 05th, 2014 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you still haven't answered my questions.
Of course we can only trust the sources you bring forward - how could I forget.
Elsewhere 2:
2013.01.12: Eleven million Argentines surviving on 7 dollars per day, according to INDEC
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
2013.04.02: Eleven million Argentines, 26.9% of the population live in poverty conditions according to the Social Observatory from the Argentine Catholic University - last year for INDEC the poverty index was down (6.5% to 5.2% or 400.000 less), for UCA from 2011 to 2012, the index soared from 21.9% to 26.9%
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
2013.04.25: ‘Official poverty’ in Argentina 2.5 million people; private estimate: 11 million
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
2013.07.08 Over a third of Argentine population in poverty conditions says food and nutrition report
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
2013.12.08: Por cada punto que la inflación sube, 5.000 personas caen en la pobreza en Gran Mendoza, poverty near 26%
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
2013.12.27 Over 10 mio. Argentines live in poverty conditions, says Catholic University
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
2014.04.30: Poverty in Argentina stands at 25.6-27.5% of population, says Catholic University (UCA)
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/eleven-million-argentines-surviving-on-7-dollars-per-day-according-to-indec
I am sorry. The above sources are secondary, mostly from Mercopress commenting on primary sources. With all due respect, I don't trust this medium, which picks and chooses some parts of the information.
Oct 05th, 2014 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am quoting excerpts from the WORLD BANK’S COUNTRY PARTNERSHIP STRATEGY FOR THE ARGENTINE REPUBLIC FOR THE PERIOD 2015-2018
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2014/09/10/000470435_20140910104430/Rendered/PDF/813610CPS0REVI0C0disclosed090100140.pdf
“After the 2002 crisis, Argentina’s growth rebounded, achieving one of the highest growth rates in the Latin America and the Caribbean (LAC) region. Argentina’s post-crisis GDP growth rates averaged 6 percent annually from 2003 to 2013…well above the 1.6 percent average annual growth rate Argentina achieved during 1980-2000.
”Since its economic crisis of 2002, Argentina has been one of the top two performers in the Latin American and Caribbean (LAC) region in reducing poverty and sharing the gains of raising prosperity by expanding the middle class.
“Inequality was reduced, and the middle class grew from 34 percent of the population to 53 percent between 2000 and 2011.”
The World Bank also notes that the growth in the period was strongly pro-poor:
”Average annual income growth was 5.1 percent, while the income of the bottom 40 percent of the population grew at an annual average of 8.8 percent.”
I rest my case.
You ought to feel sorry.
Oct 06th, 2014 - 05:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your link to World Bank Country Partnership Strategy for the Argentine Republic - FY 15-18 August 7,2014.
The so-called World Bank report is based on Argentine data from INDEC and similar sources.
This is the same INDEC which told you that the annual inflation in 2009 through 2013 was less than 10%.
Tell me which part of the above you don't understand and I shall try to explain it to you.
Quotes:
“according to INDEC census figures, ” p.1
”This survey is collected quarterly by Argentina’s Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Censos (INDEC)“ p.2
”Source: INDEC.“ p.13
”Since 2007, critics have questioned the CPI published by INDEC, ... the official annual inflation rate averaged 9.3 percent, whereas the average of the four provinces ... showed an annual inflation rate of 21.1 percent ...“ p.16
”Source: Staff estimates based on INDEC, Argentine Ministry of Economy, Provincial Statistic A gencies and the Central Bank.” p.20
and so on and so on. The source for all figures is Argentine, INDEC and others.
The report is only fit to use at the bottom of a parrot cage.
#64
Oct 06th, 2014 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry I forgot you know better than the bunch of fools that make up the World Bank. You probably have much better sources than them.
Just so that you know, people working at serious reports such as this do compensate for errors or misleading data.
While I am not fan of the World Bank, I do appreciate its non-partisan document; take some time to read it and you will see there are numerous criticisms of the Argentina government.
Also, never be complacent when doing research; consult multiple sources to make sure results are consistent.
Dismissing it out of hand just because it does not fit with your narrow views only makes you look foolish. Want to criticize the Argentina government? Be my guest. But please come up with some serious argument worth discussing.
“US Judge Griesa orders Argentina to reinstate BoNY”
Oct 06th, 2014 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/
”US Judge Thomas Griesa has ordered Argentina to reinstate the Bank of New York Mellon (BoNY) as trustee and “reverse the steps taken” with the approval of the Sovereign Payment law that replaced it with Nación Fideicomisos.”
TMBOA and her toy boy Kickitoff will be miffed over their little stunt being shit on from a high place, that apart from them, everybody else thought it only time and now it is here!
GREAT: cue the wailing from Casa Rosada.
Another one from the vultures' willing helper, Judge Thomas Griesa. Blackmailing and taking hostages, however, is not within a judge's faculties.
Oct 07th, 2014 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0This would be the first time ever that a judge goes to such lengths to prevent 92 per cent of Argentina creditors get their money, to help 1 per cent of creditors realize their anticipated profits.
Argentina will find its way around this lackey and the greedy financiers.
65 Enrique Massot
Oct 07th, 2014 - 02:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0All your stupid nonsense won't help you, because I know viveza criolla.
Question no. 7:
Exactly where in the World Bank report does it say anything about compensating for all the faked INDEC data?
As I have demonstrated the entire report names as Source: INDEC.
As for Federal Judge Griesa, only a mental midget can assume he somehow stands alone with his enterpretations of New York law.
The full United States Court of Appeal afirmed all the import parts of his ruling and the Supreme Court of the United States refused to hear the case once more, because they also affirmed Griesa's ruling.
CONCLUSION
For the reasons stated, the judgments of the district court (1) granting summary judgment to plaintiffs on their claims for breach of the Equal Treatment Provision and (2) ordering Argentina to make “Ratable Payments” to plaintiffs concurrent with or in advance of its payments to holders of the 2005 and 2010 restructured debt are affirmed.
http://www.shearman.com/~/media/Files/Old%20Site%20Files/secondcircuitdecision110512.pdf
http://www.shearman.com/~/media/Files/Old%20Site%20Files/secondcircuitdecision110512.pdf
Do answer the 7 questions now or admit that you cannot answer them without confessing that you are wrong on all 7 counts.
Oh yes, all the U.S. judiciary is involved, not only Griesa, who is the visible head on this matter. Still, as you well know, the ruling was impossible to fulfill or risk the unleashing of the RUFO clause on 92.4 per cent of the exchange bondholders. To be able to solve the impasse, Argentina asked for a stay till 31 Dec. and Griesa denied, etc. etc. You will know the other details, but you do not care about any reasons Argentina may have. You only care, as Griesa does, that the vultures get their money. I do hope you are at least making some pennies out of this since you are spending so much energy here.
Oct 07th, 2014 - 04:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0I, on the other hand, care about Argentina and approve what its government is doing. I don't live there so I am not materially impacted one way or the other. But I do care about fairness, and the vulture issue is one about greed.
At the end of the day, what's important here is not what I or you or anybody else believes or wishes, but what happens in the real world.
And reality has failed you and those of your ilk so far. You thought Griesa-induced default would sink Argentina. When that failed, you jumped up and down when Griesa declared the Argentines in contempt. That failed too. Now you expect Griesa's order to re-establish the BONY as agent will still make Cristina flinch.
Keep hoping.
69 Enrique Massot
Oct 07th, 2014 - 05:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Oh yes, all the U.S. judiciary is involved, not only Griesa, who is the visible head on this matter.”
All the countries in the world support Argentina.
All the countries in the world are members of a conspiracy against Argentina.
sob, sob! when do porteños grow up? the average mental age in Buenos Aires is about 6 years. The people I know all over the provinces accept that Argentina's problems stem from abuse, coima, general corruption, mismanagement and orgullo nacional.
“risk the unleashing of the RUFO clause”
No, that is Argentine government propaganda for the unwashed masses. Read the 2005 and 2010 prospects and get wiser.
“You only care, as Griesa does, that the vultures get their money.”
Silly rubbish. To me it is a matter of honesty, paying your debt and maintain respect for contract law and the contracts one voluntarily enters into.
It will not make the criminals in the Argentine government flinch (Kirchner fortune according to declaration. 2003: 8 million, 2013: 80 million.)
Cristina Fernandez assets increased 20% to 8 million dollars in 2012 http://en.mercopress.com/2013/11/20/cristina-fernandez-assets-increase-20-to-8-million-dollars-in-2012
La declaración jurada de Cristina Fernández de Kirchner - 2012
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/11/20/cristina-fernandez-assets-increase-20-to-8-million-dollars-in-2012
You are again and again makink faulty motive analysis instead of providing reliable sources which do not depend on INDEC , BCRA, etc. Alternatively you can declare that you believe in the figures from INDEC (9.3% inflation 2009 through 2013, on average).
Now that you once more has refused to answer my 7 questions, you have confessed that you are wrong on all 7 counts.
Enrique ............what did Argentina do with 100 billion borrowed dollars or which only 25 billion will be paid back. Where did it go? If MNL are vultures......what is Argentina with respect to 100 billion in unaccountable dollars?
Oct 07th, 2014 - 11:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ Enrique Massot
Oct 07th, 2014 - 12:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I, on the other hand, care about Argentina and approve what its government is doing.”
You are the worst kind of patriot in existence. Not only do you not live in the country, sharing the populations grievances, but, like a good nazist, you accept any crime your non-country commits: “Recht oder Unrecht mein Vaterland”. Right or wrong, my country“.
This is a government that allow the real owners of the country, the indigenous people to be abused, beaten and even killed while their ancestral lands are stolen [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] by European immigrants and their offspring. You belong in Hitlerjugend.
”I don't live there [in Argentina] so ...“
Why is it, that with the exception of two, all the so-called Argentinos who defend the present erratic and misgoverning government stay as far away from Argentina as they possibly can?
Move home to Argentina and find out how things really are, instead of reading the government's viveza-criolla-propaganda.
”But I do care about fairness, and the vulture issue is one about greed.”
The hedge funds paid more on the dollar for their bonds (up to ) than Argentina
[1] Argentina's Bad Seeds film - Amerindians being violently driven from their land https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxATngnqgv8
[2] Indigenous children dying from hunger in food-exporting Argentina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxATngnqgv8
[3] UN calls on Argentina to stop eviction of indigenous peoples from their lands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxATngnqgv8
[4] Report on the situation of indigenous peoples in Argentina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxATngnqgv8
[5] UN report: The situation of indigenous peoples in Argentina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxATngnqgv8
I can't believe!
Oct 08th, 2014 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0A pro-vulture who wants Argentina to pay the greedy financiers and mortgage the future of at least three generations is now the white knight of the indigenous peoples!
Similarly, Clarin and La Nacion and company have suddenly become interested in the condition of the original peoples who never deserved a drop of ink in the past. All that nice talk will stop if, say, a member of the opposition wins the next election.
Not only that, it appears some people's opinions are of a lesser value if they do not live in the country they are talking about. Too bad. At the end of the day, it's ideas that count and those ideas will keep intruding into what you seem to consider your and your friends' turf.
”The hedge funds paid more...please! I am shedding tears for Paul Singer. He is a misunderstood. He wanted to help Argentina.
Idiot child Enrique,
Oct 08th, 2014 - 03:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0I have just told you that I am pro law, pro contracts and in your idiocy you call it “pro-vulture”.
As a typical idiot child, you write about Clarin and La Nacion, but deliberately do not mention the reports from the United Nations.
The hedge funds paid more per dollar than Argentina. Proff is in the judgment of England and Wales High Court judgement NML Capital Ltd v The Republic of Argentina [2009] EWHC 110 (Comm) (29 January 2009)
“he bonds in question were purchased by NML's affiliates at various times from 6 June 2001 to 2 September 2003 at an aggregate price of 55.37% and 62.82% of the face value of the respective series.”
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2009/110.html
As is well documented, Argentina paid only 29% of the face value.
As a typical idiot child, you just blabber about something you have demonstrated no knowledge about, including the present situation in Argentina, the reality of which is known only to those who are in Argentina.
I shall no longer try to convince the idiot child Enrique, who is unable to read a UN report or a judgement from a first world country.
The so-much commented ruling of Judge Thomas Griesa was, in the first place, a capricious interpretation of the pari passu clause, and much work remains to be done on that field to prevent similar occurrences in the future.
Oct 08th, 2014 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The vultures launched hundreds of lawsuits worldwide before finding a Griesa who was willing to support them and a Ghana judge who--for some weeks--seized the frigate Libertad.
The world is now increasingly aware of the dysfunction of a system that allows a tiny percentage of creditors to derail a debt restructuring process approved by 92.4 per cent of creditors.
This is the core issue, and no amount of name-calling or pulled-by-the-hair arguments will change that my friend.
'Debt Restructuring' - To receive 100% and pay back 20%.
Oct 08th, 2014 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Theft' - to steal 80% of any loan.
To 'question a restructuring' = dysfunctional, name-calling and hair-pulling (Enrique Massot (#75)).
I wonder if he remembers where the term 'Double Speak' comes from.
Idiot child Enrique is again wrong, exposing his ignorance, when he writes: “debt restructuring process approved by 92.4 per cent of creditors.”
Oct 08th, 2014 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The debt restructuring process was finally (i.e. in 2010) approved by about 75 (seventyfive) percent of the creditors, owning 92.4 percent of the debt [1]. After the 2010 restructuring about 125,000 holdout creditors remained.Today the number is between 40,000 and 50,000.
[1] http://en.dagongcredit.com/content/details20_8131.html
I call Enrique an idiot child because he, like any idiot child stubbornly uphold his silly fantasies against documented facts.
Thank you for the correction. That leaves my argument intact.
Oct 08th, 2014 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You called Enrique an “idiot child” because you don't know better. I would respectfully ask you to refrain from further abusing this forum's policies.
@ 76 GeoffWard2
Oct 08th, 2014 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I wonder if he remembers where the term 'Double Speak' comes from.”
Would it be from the famous book written by George Orwell, a dying author, and entitled 1982?
:o)
Falklands war, what Falklands war?
It is not against the rules to call some one an idiot child, when you demonstrate that the person in question is an idiot child.
Oct 08th, 2014 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have e.g. in #32 shown that the United States Court of Appeals affirmed Griesa'a ruling. I included a link to the ruling, and yet the idiot child Enrique writes the following stupid nonsense: “The so-much commented ruling of Judge Thomas Griesa was, in the first place, a capricious interpretation of the pari passu clause”, stubbornly upholding his silly fantasies against the documented fact that the United States Court of Appeals affirmed the ruling and that the the United States Supreme Court denied a hearing because the court affirmed same ruling.
In #72 I gave links to United Nations' reports, and yet the idiot child Enrique in #73 blabbers about Clarin and La Nacion.
Anyone who compares our two sets of post can see, that Enrique is an idiot child, stubbornly uphold his silly fantasies against the documented facts.
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