MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
The Falkland/Malvinas Islands and the right of peoples to self-determination
By Marcelo Kohen (*) An international symposium on the concepts of self-determination, devolution, and independence took place last week in Gibraltar, organized by the Garrison Library and sponsored by the local government. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesSo take it to the ICJ if it's such a strong case.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Do you really expect anyone to believe that we'd be better off under an Argentine Government? If that was true, why would Argentina be prepared to so positively discriminate in favour of the islanders when most of their own people are living in poverty?
Oh dear another Argie expat getting in on the act, with a name like Marcelo must be a Latino.
Oct 22nd, 2014 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0if we are not a people, then Argentines are not a people!
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0First thing that leaps out at me is the sentence - “ The British authorities never explain specifically why this right of “peoples” ought to be applicable to the case of the Falkland/Malvinas.”
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 12:16 am - Link - Report abuse -1This is arse about face. The UN has clearly shown that the right applies to all the peoples of the NSGT's and therefore it is for Argentina to argue an exception, not the UK to show application.
As for his list -
1) Incorrect. It is for the administering Power to decide whether a NSGT has reached a level for SD
2) Incorrect - the islands have been British since 1765, long before Arg existed or developed pretensions
3) a trespassing garrison was expelled, nothing more. Britain has sovereignty before Arg existed
4) there are no more than the usual migration controls, and Argentines live and work there even today. A distortion of truth
5) a point you repeat often but without offering evidence to support it. That they are a “people” is not in serious doubt
6) again, your distortion of the facts. No formal invitation to arbitration has been made by Arg - ever
Other points I've sent to Kohen via Twitter =
Your population arguments are tortured. How, many “people” there are is not relevant to SD.
Who said that it was for the people of a territory to determine its status, not the territory the status of the people?
Was that the same Higgins who stated in 1982 that Britain had “established good title” ?
Contradictory policies are of no relevance to the case of the Falklands - that is just smoke & mirrors
When someone has to resort to lies to make a point, then they have already failed.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse -1Kohen, you are such a failure. Facts that you claim or deny can be proven or disproven by concrete evidence.
Thankfully people like you are minor players in this Argentine delusion
Quite an extraordinary example of argument by omission, fuelled by standard issue Argentine anglophobia rather than the historical record. The principle of self-determination, for example, was acknowledged by the UK in the Atlantic Charter signed in 1941, well before the 1960s. The smart money in the UK knew the Empire was finished already at the turn of the century, and was generally glad to see the end of it. It is an absurdity to see the Falklands as the UK's last gasp to maintain a remnant of Empire. Notoriously, the Foreign Office regarded the islands as no more than a nuisance, and the most junta-friendly of any British government, Thatcher's, was actively negotiating a transfer of sovereignity when the junta decided it preferred to invade instead.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 01:30 am - Link - Report abuse -1It's quite astonishing to see also the return of the 1833 expulsion myth, which Argentine governments have been backing away from. And no wonder. How can it be that the entire population was expelled, and yet Argentine National Hero El Asasino Rivero, his henchmen and victims were still able to figure in a murder spree on the islands a couple of months later? Did they have a Tardis or something? And how come Vernet pursued court vases in the UK and the US for decades, writing voluminous submissions to the courts, and never once mentioned any expulsion?
Likewise in the examples of territorials disputes, the Professor has omitted to mention that a) none of the territories was an NSGT and b) the cases all hinged on the possession of legal title. As we all know, Argentina possesses nothing remotely resembling legal title to the islands, and there is no judgement, resolution or declaration anywhere denying the Falklands the rights of all NSGTs.
But at least the Professor ends on a positive note. Indeed a negotiated settlement is possible, it always is, and where there's a will there's a way. For sure. When then, can we expect Argentina to sit in the same room as the people it seeks to annex?
Great job Marcelo!
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 03:20 am - Link - Report abuse +1What a load of rubbish. The ICJ has confirmed in 4 Advisory Opinions and 1 Judgment 'that the right to self-determination is applicable to ALL non-self-govering territories.' 'ALL'. There are NO exceptions to this rule. The International Law Commission has confirmed that this right is 'jus cogens' (compelling law). Over 50 percent of the Islanders were born on the Falkland Islands and many can trace their routes back several generations. The Kirby definition of 'a people' adopted by UNESCO includes 'the inhabitants of Non-Self-Governing territories.' As does the interpretation of UNGA resolutions. The UK does not have to do ANYTHING regarding Argentina's illegitimate sovereignty claims. There is nothing to compel the UK to talk to Argentina about the future status of the Falkland Islands. It is solely up to Argentina to present a case to the ICJ. Argentina has been quick to use to ICJ regarding the Pulp Mills but not for their 'great Malvinas Myth.' Conquest and subjugation, Convention of Settlement Peace Treaty, Immemorial Possession, Extinctive Prescription and The right to self-determination all mean that Argentina's sovereignty claims are d e a d in the water. Feeble attempt to distort reality and worthy of Argentina's 106th position in the Global Corruption Index.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 04:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0This argument is inherently artificial, and is by an implanted population that “civilized” the South Americans (and eradicated them) “by the cross or by the sword” and is nobody to lecture other populations about their legitimacy and rights to self determination.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Between 1760 and 1860 anything happened .. wars and ethnic cleansing all over America and Europe and no lawyer could process correctly what “should” have happened and which implanted population is entitled to rights and which implanted population isn't.
In the case of the Falklands the 1850 treaty put an end to all disputes between UK and Argentina and triggered an investment in Argentina which gave it unparalleled wealth and prosperity up to the end of the 1930s when a new population started to manifest itself, most Argentines can trace their roots to the Italian immigration after World War I, this population was nationalist and linked to the developments in Italy of fascism. This European nationalist population tore up the 1850 agreement and the governments which it generated was very corrupt and following the lines of Mussolini (Peron). They expected World War II to be won by the Axis, and when London fell they were going to declare war in the last moments and take over the large British interests and possessions, so they invented a claim which wasn't in Argentina's official maps until this time.
Unfortunately London came out on top so they could only steal from the last of their mentors, and on the last day of the war they declared war on Germany to get at their interests instead. This is what we are really dealing with. The education system was brought under strict control, specially to suit plan “a” which didn't happen but specially the “revised history” remained in place. Any step towards a solution would need internal changes to the constitution (no Argentine minister can debate sovereignty without doing an unconstitutional act) and the education system which in its history preaches hate and lies.
Just love the way that RG politicians and legal eagles mention the 40 UN resolutions regarding the Falklands. The last UNGA resolution mentioning the Falklands was in 1985 and didn't even mention sovereignty talks. Any resolutions from the UN C24 are irrelevant and have NO legal bearing unless adopted by the General Assembly. Still, all good propaganda for the unenlightened. Chuckle chuckle.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0There are lies, damn lies and Marcel Kohen speeches.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Full of lies and distortions.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 10:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0If he believes all his own lies and distortions, then why doesn't Argentina take the case to the ICJ.
They won't take it to the Court because they know that their claim is invalid.
Kohen, you even look like a dickhead.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well of course, of course, you ARE a dickhead.
Terrific article by one of the most respected international law professors.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Implanted population in Malvinas can't be part of any negotiation.
What could be more comic than the implanted population of Argentina claiming implanted populations have no rights?
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Kohen. Was your audience properly polite or was your speech greeted with gales of laughter.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 11:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Many points already made but here goes.
1). I wonder how Britain came to 'recognise' the importance of self-determination only in the late 60s, when it had been handing out independence left, right and centre for 20 years.
2). There is no 'sovereignty dispute' with argieland, except in your own dysfunctional 'minds'.
3). Probably best if you don't allege incomplete or falsified information. Or perhaps you'd like to read http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/false-falklands-history-at-the-united-nations-how-argentina-misled-the-un-in-1964-and-still-does/ and the included links.
4). How argieland's population was formed? You mean invasion, occupation, rape and murder. http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/false-falklands-history-at-the-united-nations-how-argentina-misled-the-un-in-1964-and-still-does/ And the article only relates to the 2nd attempted 'Conquest of the Desert'.
5). Why do you not reveal the evidence that, in 1833, only the UP garrison was required to leave and only 4 others went with them? Do you have a problem reading a ship's manifest?
6). Do you realise that 'people' and 'population' are interchangeable? This can be seen in many UN resolutions.
7). Yes, the Islanders do have the 'right'. the UK has given it to them. Under the terms of the UN Charter, the 'trustee' has that 'right'.
8). No, it isn't UNGA, because no single UNGA resolution is binding. The only UN resolutions that are binding, on members, are those of the Security Council and argieland ignored TWO of those.
9). In fact, argieland refused THREE British offers to put the matter before the ICJ.
10). The UN has no right to force its prejudices on a sovereign people. The Falkland Islands is not a UN member and has no need to recognise the UN.
11). 'The United Nations doctrine regarding the way to bring the colonial situation to an end is through negotiations between Argentina and the United Kingdom to resolve the sovereignty dispute'. No it isn't. Try again.
An annotated version of the Dr.'s presentation - https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/kohens-case-annotated-20141.pdf
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you Lord Ton,
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see that Marcelo Kohen has liked to the news story on his twitter account.
I wonder if he is following the discussion.
Would be great if he read the annotations, so he could retract his inaccurate statements.
His wishy washy statements with no supporting evidence are really poor.
He glosses of the illegal invasion of 1982 as if it didn't happen.
As do the Argentinian leadership.
Argentina has never apologized for or compensated the peoples of the Falklands for Argentinian aggression.
is it any wonder the up to 9 generations of settlers on the Falklands (again older than Argentina has existed as a country) are wary of Argentinian claim to be their friend.
So Marcelo Kohen, if you are reading these comments.
I challenge you to read the annotations to your presentation, and to correct your errors, omissions & inaccuracies.
Put simply, 1,650 British citizens do not have the right to determine the result of a sovereignty dispute between Argentina and the United Kingdom
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0SIMPLE ANSWER IS
FALKLANDS WAR 11
this time end it properly , thousands will die just so CFK can have her victory,
she will lose again, then after getting her to surrender humiliatingly,
split the country into 4 or 5 regions independently
and end the problem once and for all.
I got five lines into his speech and gave up. Just filled with lies. The man is clueless.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marcos - In Gibralter both sides were able to make their cases in a proper democratic debate- Answer me this - and JIB at 14 - you answer me also please:
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Will the Argentine Govt Islanders and Argentines to make this debate open and freely and democratically also in Argentina?
18 zathras
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is not much chance of Kohen changing anything.
This current speech/paper is identical to the one published in 2012.
Kohen's sophism is so easy to refute simply using accepted legal principles of international law, which has been further reenforced by a UNGA resolution. Namely the attempt to apply the modern law of “territorial integrity” to a time preceding it's inception. Remembering Argentina has never been able to successfully prove under international law or treaty any valid claim, in contrast to the UK.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Rosalyn Higgins President of ICJ concluded when she pointed out: “No tribunal could tell her [Argentina] that she has to accept British title because she has acquiesced to it. But what the protests do not do is to defeat the British title, which was built up in other ways than through Argentinas acquiescence. However intensely Argentina may disagree, Britain has clearly built up good title to the Falkland Islands under International Law over the last 150 years.”1
1. Rosalyn Higgins, “Falklands and the Law,” Observer, 2 May 1982.
Moreover, in spite of blandishments to the contrary “self determination” is not a qualified right but an absolute right since the words used in the Charter are “...based on the principle of equal rights and self determination of peoples...”. So Kohen can try to fit as many angels on as his pin as he wishes, his argument fails when compared to the Charter.
According to ICJ chief justice Robert Yewdall Jennings '...The rule of the intertemporal law still insists that an act must be characterized in accordance with the law in force at the time it was done, or closely on the next occasion....'The Acquisition of Territory in International Law “..It is therefore not surprising that the General Assembly declared in 1970 that the modem prohibition against the acquisition of territory by conquest should not be construed as affecting titles to territory created 'prior to the Charter regime and valid under international law'..”
Akehursts Modern Introduction to International Law By Peter Malanczuk
Paragraph 80 of the ICJ Kosovo Advisory Opi
The problem with Kohen's arguments are that he seems to think the UK has to somehow justify self-determination. It does not; it is a right of the NSGT's which derives from the UN Charter. The UK does not have the right to permit or deny self-determination for the Falkland Islanders, though happily it supports the fundamental human right.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nor indeed does Argentina have the right to enshrine anything in its Constitution about the rights of Islanders. Our rights derive from being here for 180 years, not from the colonial past of the UK or the colonial aspirations of Argentina.
Continuance 0f 23
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Paragraph 80 of the ICJ Kosovo Advisory Opinion that states, 'the scope for the principle for territorial integrity is limited to the relationship between individual States and does not impinge on the right to self-determination and independence.' Which along with two opinions from former ICJ chief justices not only defeats Kohen's claims, but proves what an unprincipled liar he is, as he was the losing lawyer in the Kosovo judgement. It seems sadly, that such widespread lack of ethics is epidemic in Argentina.
In conclusion, Kohen ignores the tenet “there is no obligation in general international law to settle disputes”.
Principles of Public International Law, third edition, 1979 by Professor Ian Brownlie
...and... over to Paul Cedron for a rebuttal...
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Paul “Nino” Cedron:
“ bla bla bla ... islets ... bla bla... ”
Boring
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17 Lord Ton Great demolition job!
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Almost everything this guy has said is either a lie or twisted as to be totally misleading.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He has managed to include almost every lie that Argenitna has told about the islands over the last 50 years that has been disproved.
Hopefully his resume describes his job as writer of alternate history fiction or professional clown.
@21 you have to make up your mind. There is a much vaunted referendum where you decided that your foreign policy is ran by the UK, so how will you be able to participate of any debate with a third country if not through the UK foreign office?.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gibraltar decided to be 100 % independent, not a colony like current implanted Malvinas population decided to be.
The veracity of what you are broadcasting Cohen is very questionable to say the absolute minimum.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0personally I would describe your statement as 'shite'.
@30 JIB
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You should check your facts
i have written to the University of Geneva showing both Marcelo Kohens claptrap and the excellent response at 17.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 04:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did the University want to associate itself with a “professor” who blatently lies and whos research is so fundamentally flawed....
Worth a laugh anyway!
@30
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And that's the whole point, they have decided on what ever governance they want.
Bots have their foreign and defense policy run by the uk for conformity and also for ease of the citizens of those territory's when travelling abroad for example. Simple really.
The demographics populations is irrelevant in reality. what population demographics does Argentina have given its a country practically born from immigration? Does being a new immigrant disbar you from feeling argentine or whatever you feel your culture or heritage is?
It's not the past immigration rates or where people are from or why its the collective feeling and distinction of culture they exude together. That's the formation on nationhood.
So on this matter it's not the feeling of being falklanders or being british, it's the distinction of not feeling argentine, or having anything to do with Argentina. And that is the only way the Falklands will be argentine, for the people to feel Argentinian.
So what has Argentina done or attempting to do to remedy this situation?
I second poster Mr. (7) Marcos Alejandro opinion...
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As I second Capiatá ... :-)
Argentina cant have the Falkland's on the bases that slavery is illegal,
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0after all, that's how they would treat the islanders, would they not,.
Sounds like we are just going to have to agree to disagree, in the meantime as Argentina is militarily impotent and we are the 4th largest military power on the planet, not a lot is going to change now or in the long-term future. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't generally feel compelled to talk to people I don't wish to to talk to about a topic I have no need or desire to discuss - why is this situation any different?
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696174/HMS-Queen-ELizabeth-floated-Rosyth-dock-time-planes-fly-latest-setback-order-new-F-35-fighter-jets.html
Nuff said!
@ 30 jib
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is called ''Free Association.''
This is as per UN GA Resolution 2625 'the establishment of a sovereign and independent state, ''the free association'' or integration with an independent state or the emergence into any other political status ''freely determined'' by the people constitutes modes of implementing the right of self-determination by that people.'
I suppose the Argentineans didn't implant themselves in Patagonia. Did the natives just welcome them?
#37
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Forth of Firth ??? Where is that ???
What else can you expect from the Daily Rale!
It reminds me of the football result that all commentators dreaded
East Fife five...Forfar four
@38 Patagonia didn't have natives when conquered by Roca.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#30
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Firstly, when did Gibraltar decide to be 100% independent? You're just lying. Secondly, even though the Foreign Affairs of the BoTs are under the aegis of the Parliament of the UK any decisions are carried out in tandem with the BoTs self-government. The Argentine refusal to take part in talks including representatives of the FIG was nothing more than childish refusal to acknowledge that the islanders exist.
#40 You're kidding right? So who was he talking about when he said this:
“Our self-respect as a virile people obliges us to put down as soon as possible, by reason or by force, this handful of savages who destroy our wealth and prevent us from definitely occupying, in the name of law, progress and our own security, the richest and most fertile lands of the Republic.”
—Julio Argentino Roca
Glad to see Argentina's education system is as exemplary as ever.
“Patagonia didn't have natives when conquered by Roca.”
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes it did.
Gotta love the Argentine education system.
It's quite simple really. You just have to remember that the expulsion that didn't happen did, and the extermination that did happen didn't.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Kohen is confused, and a liar.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Firstly, he has chosen the “usurption” lie, as opposed to the “territorial integrity” or “inheritance” lies.
The “usurption” lie has been disproved time and time again. The British argument is not that “only the authorities were removed” at all...that is a lie.
The British argument is only the crew of the Sarandi were removed, a crew that had arrived only six weeks earlier and had already committed murder and rape were removed.
The “civilian population” was actually headed by two Britons and certainly were not “under the authority” of Pinedo...another lie.
Whether the Vernet population numbered 200 or not in “the late 1820s” is irrelevant, as they had long since voluntarily gone, Vernet himself had scarpered years earlier.
All the other shite he mentions about Chagos, is ridiculous. He seems to argue that the 2000 Chagossians did have the right to self determination, but the 2000 islanders don't...somehow the Chagossians are indigenous in Kohens pea brain...even though there is no drinking water available.
In summary, Kohen is a penis!
@42 hey genius, do you know what the word natives mean dont you?
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So how many Argentine “ natives ” were expelled from in 1833 then genius?
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL....JIB=KNOB
#45
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Clearly you don't:
Native, adj. Characteristic of or relating to people inhabiting a region from prehistoric times.
Are you suggesting there was no native human population in Patagonia?
Prof Kohen is a prize t-wat!! How is he a professor?
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What is his doctorate in? From the sounds of it he got a masters degree in being a prize winning s**t at the university of Turd Mountain.
”6) because the United Kingdom, after having expelled Argentina and established its own settlers, rejected all the offers of negotiation and arbitration put forward by Argentina while it consolidated its physical presence on the Islands”
At what point did this idiot study leave planet Earth and start flying with the Fairies? From the above quote ( his quote ) he could not have done a very good research job on his subject.
Telling lies, not doing enough research... Is he argentine?
JIB - As others have pointed out- what we voted for in 2013 was a legitimate UN type democratic system for a small not-independednt state- We run our own affairs in a free voluntary association with UK whereby they are responsible- in consultation with the elected Govt of the Islands - for Foreign Affairs and Defence.
Oct 23rd, 2014 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please explain your problem with it?If Argentina were to allow such a debate to happen freely in Argentina it would be Islanders who would come and make the case for the Islanders - Not UK - they have stated many many times that our future is our choice to make.
We exercised that right in 2013 and had it properly done and independently verified by a group of other independent nations lawyers/deputies/parliamentarians etc.
For natives of Patagonia- read the indigenous population - that was indeed murdered off by Roca and his cohorts, and further south in Santa Cruz and T.D.F he was assisted by the estancieros of that time - fully backed by the Arg Govt. of course.
Very well singing the forty and leave them no arguments to the miserable of the okupas.
Oct 24th, 2014 - 03:08 am - Link - Report abuse 035 Think
Oct 24th, 2014 - 04:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0I bet you are crying with your new friend Capiatá dear gayina :-))
I bet our friend anglolatino loves your team :-)
http://www.clarin.com/deportes/River-entrenamiento-particular_0_1235276924.html
@40 jib. I suppose they must have all killed themselves after the RG's arrived.
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why would love his team?
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina - the ICJ awaits your arguments!
Oct 24th, 2014 - 08:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0#50
Oct 24th, 2014 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Would you care to supply a translation to the jumble of words you have just posted.
José Malvinero,
Oct 24th, 2014 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Okupas de Argentina.-- a squatter on lndian land.
Kohen is an Argentine lawyer and we are all aware of the innate corruption of the legal system in that pariah nation. Invention and false assumptions always.
Oct 24th, 2014 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marcelo Kohen
Oct 24th, 2014 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0your reward for your lies will be in hell,
as heaven does not take to well to liars..
@57
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes just been on google, he is in fact an Argie ( I wouldn't go as far to say lawyer ) thats why he tells so many lies. Lip service I think it is called
The last thing this conference needed was a malvinazi participant.
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Philippe
@57 & 59
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are not being fair to the man. He is working out of a country that is ranked down in 166 position out of 178 countries by the Index of Economic Freedoms.
Argentina is classified as being ''repressed''.
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
Marcelo Kohen is an Argentinian ex-pat who has lived in Switzerland for the past 25 years.
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As a lawyer defending Argentina's claim he will twist any information to accommodate the Argentinian claim.
60 Philippe
Oct 24th, 2014 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The last thing this conference needed was a malvinazi participant.”
I'm with you on that one brother.
Kohen is irrelevant, & wholely unforgettable.
Oct 24th, 2014 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@30
Oct 24th, 2014 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ like current implanted Malvinas population decided to be.”
Therefore by your own argument the Argentines are implanted as they originate from Europe like the Falkland Islanders.
So as you are implanted , that doesn't give you any right to criticise the Falkland Islanders for being originated from European immigrants.
Apart from the fact that Britain allowed 11 proto Argentines to stay in January 1833 (as The Republic of Argentina was not formed until the 1850s), and the 4 native Uruguayan Indians and the nationalities of the people that stayed in January 1833 did not even include an Englishmen (Dickson was Irish).
I can tell in advance that you are too stupid to note that these settlers from South America that agreed to stay in the Islands under British rule in 1833, cannot possibly have been transplanted from Britain as they came from the River Plate region, (note Britain does not have a River Plate).
So where does this shit about HMS Clio leaving transplanted Britons in 1833 come from, matey boy?
HMS Clio left no personnel on the Falklands in 1833, when the majority of settlers were South Americans that agreed to live under the British flag.
58
Oct 25th, 2014 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ja, ja, ja !! So the sky is empty of English. Only St. Thomas More is in Heaven, commanded to kill by the syphilitic Henry VIII.
Indeed, the conference Kohen has not the slightest lie, if not the opposite, which the sulfided the wretched okupas.
@66
Oct 25th, 2014 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0My gosh, I didn't know that St. Thomas More supported the Argentine claim to the Falklands.
66 José
Oct 25th, 2014 - 03:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0No way José,
You need better translator software.
This is an English language website.
@66 José malorous,
Oct 25th, 2014 - 09:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0lf Henry the VIII was syphilitic, there is a good chance that he got it from his Spanish wife(Catherine of Aragon).
Any relation to you, José?
It genuinely baffles me how many exemptions God has given Argentina, must be some lucky people's not to incur the wrath of the almighty in regards to....
Oct 25th, 2014 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thou shalt not steal (hey they lent it to us so they should have expected us not to pay)
Thou shalt not murder (heathens according to syphalitic conquistadors but hey we got an exemption) (killing of children in concentration camps...but hey they were nazis and they weren't proper argentines just tourists so we got an exemption) (hey it was the junta...you know it's our evil twin brother who made an appearance , so the whole falklands war didn't happen on the argentine soap opera that goes on so we got an exemption)
Thou shalt not covet your neighbours house (hey it's the falklanders and were racist from being Spanish and you know gods Catholic right? so we got an exemption)
Thou shall not worship false idols (hey we all out of luck and we love those falklands soooo much so we got an exemption)
And it goes on......
Tell me does the argentine public transport system make any money because of the fact everyone has wings and flys about?
If Marcelo Kohens spewings is the best case Argentina has then it is an embarrassment to his country.
Oct 25th, 2014 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He didn't make a single accurate representation of any of the events prior to 1833..and then lied about the events since.
The man is a fraud....hopefully he gets loads of Argentine tax ,payers money for his lies, thatd be hilarious
@66 Jose
Oct 25th, 2014 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why don't you try to defend Argentina's case that Marcello Kohen has presented?
The real problem is, Argentina's sovereignty case and excuses are so pitifully weak that they can't be defended.
@69
Oct 25th, 2014 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”lf Henry the VIII was syphilitic, there is a good chance that he got it from his Spanish wife(Catherine of Aragon)“
Priceless-Argentines can't research history as well as the superior intellect of a Falkland Islander.
.@71
”....hopefully he gets loads of Argentine tax ,payers money for his lies, thatd be hilarious2
Hope he milks the suckers.
Excellent reflection bloporta:
Oct 25th, 2014 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To show just one button. As the British try to manipulate, distort and crudely trying to create favorable opinion, generating controversial acts, meaningless, they are very difficult to explain, but for the denial of clarifying them. The article by Dr. Kohan is bright and clear, and compelling by data. But before this rag handles shamelessly insinuate that what the reader will read below is almost a lie. First do not put the name of who says it, second to publish it or invite someone to a conference if degrade after exposure. only explanation ..... ....... this in their DNA, increasingly poor in sight.
Raul
Oct 25th, 2014 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The problem is that Kohens argument is False...so it is not backed up by data.
He asserts that the UN has never said the islanders have the right to self determination...LIE...the UN has stated that the people of all NSGTs have that right.
He asserts that the islands were usurped in 1833. ...LIE...the only people who were evicted in 1833 had been on the islands for fewer than 6 weeks.
He asserts that Argentina has a claim just because it wants one....False...as proven by numerous ICJ judgements.
Kohens speech is shit. Shockingly shit...and you ate it...LOL
These argie bloggers are more brainwashed and anti British than we thought,
Oct 25th, 2014 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I bet you, that if it was the Americans in the Falkland's in 1833,
and a British ship that fires on the argies,
today, the Falkland's wouldn't even be mentioned, they would all be complaining of the ship that attacked them.
still,
you never know..lol
75 Monkeymagic
Oct 25th, 2014 - 08:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The problem is that the argument is false Kohens ... so it is not supported by the data.
Marcelo Kohen's arguments are fully supported by all true Universities of Latin America. The decolonization committee United Nations is very clear about stating the islands as a sovereignty dispute. No self-determination. The expulsion of Argentine authorities and citizens in 1833 is indisputable and acknowledged by the leading scholars of the subject, even in the UK itself.
He says that Argentina has a fair claim because wants one .... False ... as evidenced numerous judgments of the ICJ.
You are lying. Never try ICJ conflict sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.
Leave the hatred and bitterness. World public opinion no longer accepts English colonialism and imperialism in the 21st century is demonstrated by the decolonization committee to consider the UN as a problem caused by English colonialism.
British 76
Pathetic and pitiful. You keep insulting all the time. You have brainwashed that does not allow you to check the story with facts judgment.
77
Oct 25th, 2014 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the only brainwashed argies are you lot,
the Falkland's are not yours,
never were, and never will be
so either take it to the ICJ or stop lying.
@77
Oct 25th, 2014 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Raul
if “the expulsion of Argentine authorities and citizens in 1833 is indisputable” would you mind explaining how come Argentine National Hero El Asasino Rivero, his henchmen and victims were still on the islands a couple of months after the indisputable expulsion?
Did Raul just say we were brainwashed?
Oct 25th, 2014 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After repeating every brainwashed lie of the Argentine government.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
77 raul2= [you uttered]
Oct 25th, 2014 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have brainwashed that does not allow you to check the story with facts judgment.
--
Are you truthful or are you just another uneducated troll,
You stated the following ????
1,- Marcelo Kohen's arguments are fully supported by all true Universities of Latin America
Prove It
2,= The decolonisation committee United Nations is very clear about stating the islands as a sovereignty dispute
Prove It
3,= United Nations is very clear about. No self-determination
Prove It
4= The expulsion of Argentine authorities and citizens in 1833 is indisputable
Prove It
The rest is garbled,
Prove your claims or go away,
P lease [ see] no insults .
Self-determination is established as a right, not only by Articles 1, 2, 55, 56 and 75 of the United Nations Charter… …but in Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights… … and Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.
.thanks...
This Kohen chap should be expelled from his university for promogulating outright lies and half truths.
Oct 26th, 2014 - 01:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0He should be ashamed of himself.
Also he never mentioned the illegal invasion by Argentina that led to the war that they lost in 1982.
Why this ommission?
Raul
Oct 26th, 2014 - 07:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0The expulsion of Argentine authorities and civilians in 1833 is Absolutely refutable....even by Mr. think on these boards.
The only Argentines expelled in jan 1833 were the crew of the Ss Sarandi who had arrived in November 1832, mutineed, murdered their Captain Esteban Mestevier and raped his wife.
They'd been on the islands less than six weeks when they were ordered to leave.
THAT Raul, is the historic fact....borne out by ALL the historic evidence.
Just he crew of the Sarandi....50 odd people, all of whom were on the islands for less than six weeks.
The civilians on the islands remained, led, as they were before the Sarandi arrived, by two British men, Dickson and Brisbane.
Sorry you hate historic facts Raul.
P.s.
The Decolonization committee is not “the UN”. The General Assembly, ICJ and the Security council is “UN”. When The C24 attempted to deny the rights of the Falklands/Gibraltar the rights to self determination in 2008, the General Assembly “the UN” rejected it 60 votes to 40. So t would appear ”world public opinion is with us!
Again, sorry you don't like the facts Raul.
As far as leaving colonialism behind...colonialism is stealing land and governing the people there against their will....exactly Argentinas plans for the islands...perhaps you should follow your own advice.
Got the picture now, Raul?
Oct 26th, 2014 - 09:41 am - Link - Report abuse 01) NO, Argentina does NOT own the Falklands.
2) NO, Argentina has NEVER owned these lslands.
3) NO, Argentina will NEVER own these lslands.
We do not care what lies that you were taught at school, Raul.
This is OUR land, Raul.
NOT yours.
Tough bananas.
I totally agree with Isolde.
Oct 26th, 2014 - 09:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0You really can't make it any clearer.
The FACT that Spain had a colony on the islands between 1766-1811 DOES NOT make the islands Argentine...
Oct 26th, 2014 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE SPANIARDS BECAME ARGENTINE
The FACT Luis Vernet had a business on the islands between 1829-1831 does not make the islands Argentine. Vernet himself claimed that it was a commercial venture unlinked to sovereignty, and when he himself left the islands in 1831 he left two Britons in charge, Brisbane and Dickson.
The Fact that on January 6th 1833 Britain removed the crew of the SS Sarandi from the islands DOES NOT GIVE ARGENTINA sovereignty. 50 or so visitors who'd only been on the islands for 6 weeks, constitutes NEITHER AUTHORITY OR CIVILIAN population.....it is a complete LIE.
The fact that a handful of countries support dialogue to resolve the dispute, does not mean they support Argentinas position.
The fact that the majority of countries support self-determination on all NSGTs, and voted down “sovereignty disputes” as a reason for not allowing self-determination, is abundantly clear....in 2008.
I am sorry you don't like the true FACTS Raul.
I am sorry they are not the facts you've been indoctrinated with, Raul.
I am sorry you believe there was an “inheritance”, a “usurption” and a “global support for Argentina”.....when the FACTs PROVE none are true.
Sorry Raul...there is no room in the 21st century for Argentine colonialism....that stopped in 1880 with your genocidal theft of Patagonia.
@83
Oct 26th, 2014 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's a good point. I do recall not even Think could shore up the argument that an Argentine civilian population had been forced to leave, he claimed they'd been forced to stay.
But who needs evidence when you've got anglophobia?
1833 Displaced population. Act of force - why not just play along with the RGs.
Oct 26th, 2014 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On the subject of conquest as providing title to the Falklands, Shaw writes, ''It would appear that conquest formed the original title, irrespective of the British employment of other principles. This coupled with widespread recognition by the international community including the UN, of the status of the Islands as a British colony would appear to resolve the legal issues.' (International Law, sixth Edition, SHAW, 2008, p533).
This along with 'extinctive prescription' 'immemorial possession' 'acquiescence' and 'self-determination' - which is jus cogens 'compelling law, means that ANY Argentine that believes that they have a legal claim to the Islands is just *issing in the wind.
Because morally, displacing an Argentine population would've been wrong, as would “expelling Argentine authorities”
Oct 26th, 2014 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0However, ALL THE EVIDENCE tells us neither of these EVER HAPPENED.
The only expulsion was of 50 crew of the SS Sarandi who had been on the islands 6 weeks.
Kohen calls this irrelevant...but it is the ONLY RELEVANCE....the Argentine claim is based on lies.
No inheritance, No Argentine population, No usurption...
None of it is legally relevant anyway, but it would be morally relevant...but as its all lies...we can with clear conscience state categorically...
ARGENTINA HAS NO MORAL, LEGAL OR GEOGRAPHICAL CLAIM...NONE
All of this “paper” from Mr. Kohen is not valid cause he start from a wrong concept that makes all resut wrong itself.....“the Falklands Islans territory as a part of Argentine territory”.....
Oct 26th, 2014 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Based on this principle he denies the self determination of the Islanders considering them as a “minority”, not a “people”, living on a foreing country, Argentina in this case.....and then without the “right of self determination”.....
Even that Islanders have not displaced any “native people” of the islands.....and those which have voted the last referéndum where all born there with long Islander ancestry or with citizen card after long years living there.....
Beside, once the Argentine position abuse of the funnel law, with the wide end for them .....because they can claim the “utis posidendis prínciple” when dispute lands with its close mainland neighbors but the others far oceanic neighbors can´t appeal to it.....
Isn´t it double standard, is it....??? If not, can anyone tell what is it...???
Argentina flag for to the “Top Coward”:
Oct 26th, 2014 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://malvinasislasargentinas.blogspot.com.ar/2014/10/en-venganza-plantan-una-bandera.html
ha ha! I bet they just laughed. I'm equally sure they didn't throw any rocks or that the ambassador was embarassingly forced to make a complaint.
Oct 26th, 2014 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0silly!
#91
Oct 26th, 2014 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I had a look at the site and noted that no one had bothered to comment on it.
Are you the only reader of this child's comic ?
@91
Oct 26th, 2014 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0How many we're forcibly evicted in 1833?
What was the longest any of those had been on the islands?
Two simple questions...650 dead Argentines because their government lied to them about the answers.
How many more need to die because of the Argentine governments lies?
So for all you argie brainwashed who read argentine history and living in the 18th century,
Oct 26th, 2014 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina will never get the Falklands,
Its not yours and never was,
So Soddy offy and go bother someone else,
Brazil, perhaps..
All of Kohen's nonse is of no importance, he simply has no knowledge of the subject.
Oct 26th, 2014 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Since 1833 The United Kingdom has had, and still has, full title to the Falkland Islands in accordance with international law, for the same reasons as Argentina has legal title to the Chaco, Formosa and Misiones provinces and Patagonia.
Same international law, same legal title. 'nuf said.
Now if only CFK and her government would accept this,
Oct 26th, 2014 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We could all go back to living in peace,
And argentine may well yet get out of its mess and start to progress forwards,
And get back the respect it has lost,
What’s the chance of this happening,
Come on argentine people wake up and get rid of this CFK government,
And return to the real world
Where you should be…
You are better than CFK ..
@77
Oct 27th, 2014 - 07:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ The expulsion of Argentine authorities and citizens in 1833 is indisputable”
It has been disputed, so therefore it can't be indisputable can it?
Do you actually understand the meaning of the words Indisputable/Disputable or are you an uneducated half wit?
Do you include the 80% of Pinedo's sailors manning the Sarandi who were born in Britain as Argentine authorities? These British people were evicted, by the British.
As the proto Argentine civilians , including Antonio Rivero the murderer, who included an emigrant from Buenos Aires amongst his victims, were allowed to stay at Port Louis, how can you say they were evicted?
Were they cut in half and one half of the settlers who remained in 1833 sent away and the other half of their bodies left at Port Louis?
I think Argentina and Kohen are smart following the maxim: “If you are losing an argument, change the battleground”.
Oct 27th, 2014 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. The Republic of Argentina is and remains a third party to the decolonisation of the population of the Falkland Islanders by its Administrating Country, Great Britain, yet boldly makes a false pretension without legal merit that Argentina enjoys the rights of an Administrating Country - it does not, yet is not rebutted
2. Resolution 2065 confirms resolution 1514 covers the case of the Falkland Islands, but Argentina deny this plain fact when The United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2065 (1965) explicitly states:
Question of the Falkland Islands (Malvinas)
The General Assembly,
Having examined the question of the Falkland Islands (Malvinas),
Taking into account the chapters of the reports of the Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples relating to the Falkland Islands, and in particular the conclusions and recommendations adopted by the Committee with reference to that Territory,
Considering that its resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960 was prompted by the cherished aim of bringing to an end everywhere colonialism in all its forms, one of which covers the case of the Falkland Islands”
where the purpose is to end the British colonial government of the population of the Falkland Islands, but Argentina is not rebutted
3. Argentina falsely insists that resolution 2065 only requires a peaceful solution to the problem, bearing in mind:
a. ony the interests of the population of the Falkland Islands (Malvinas);
and ignores 2065 also states bearing in mind:
b. the provisions and objectives of the charter of the United Nations
c. the provisions and objectives of of General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV)
and yet, Argentina is not rebutted
I think Argentina repositions its battleground well, without effective rebuttal
@ 99 Domingo
Oct 28th, 2014 - 05:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0The British rebuttal is crystal clear: “We have no doubt about our sovereignty over the Falkland Islands... we have a perfectly valid title”.
Four times over:
1. Acquired in accordance with concurrent international law.
2. Confirmed by the ratification in 1850 of the 1849 peace treaty.
3. Confirmed by two Argentine presidents and a vice president.
4. By right of possession in 181 years.
Re.: # 96 above & international law as it was accepted by all states in 1833.
See:
Henry Wheaton: “Elements of international law: with a sketch of the history of the science”, Volume 1 & 2 (1836)
Henry Wheaton: “Elementos del derecho internacional”, Volume 2 (1855) - in the second half of the 19th century used by the law schools at the South American universities.
Henry Wager Halleck: “Elements of international law and laws of war” (1866)
Carlos Calvo: “Derecho internacional teórico y práctico de Europa y América”, Bind 2 (1868)
The Argentines know that they are wrong,
Oct 28th, 2014 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0They know that they have no hope,
They are just hoping that we will weaken & lose the will to resist them.
Not going to happen, Amigos.
This is OUR land, NOT yours & we don't want or need you.
Do your empire building somewhere else.
@99, @100
Oct 28th, 2014 - 10:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's true that the UK is allowing Argentina to control and distort the narrative. Partly I would guess it's a strategy of not feeding the troll while waiting for its self-immolation, but personally I think it's time there was a much more robust response than just the recitation that “we have no doubt”. Argentina's lies need to be shown up for what they are.
the rebuttal is quite simple;
Oct 28th, 2014 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 01) How many people were actually evicted in the supposed usurption
2) What was the longest any of these “evictees” had been on the islands
3) What was the nationality of the leader of the small business on the islands when the “evictees” first arrived in November 1832
If Argentina truthfully answered those questions...their claim melts away.
@102
Oct 28th, 2014 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's why I believe that it is very much in the Islander's interests for a proper historical documentary to show what really happened and to have this translated into many languages.
The 51 Degrees documentaries were great at showing that the Falkland Islanders are real people with ordinary lives, but living in the most beautiful little country in the world. What we need to do is explode all the Argie myths - all the lies they keep telling to the UN and elsewhere.
A proper BBC documentary, or even series of documentaries could show re-enactments of the events in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. To show that British never lost their title to the Islands and continued to visit them. To show that even Vernet knew that the Islands were British and accepted this both before and after 1833. That Vernet even sold land to a Royal Navy officer, to gain protection from the British for his colony and that even after 1833, Vernet went to London to seek compensation, was given it and signed documents showing that he believed the Islands were British.
Best of all, to show the history behind the Arana-Southern Treaty and why it ended the Argentine claim.
My friend Roger Lorton tells me that there are literally thousands of documents from the era which have still not been read and analysed. he recently heard of documents written by Consul Parish which give his picture of Vernet's actions and the Argentine Government's failure to respond to the British protests in 1829 and afterwards. It also might explain what happened with the American Consul and their complaints against the behaviour of the United Provinces over the American schooners that were pirated by Vernet.
A proper documentary or series of programmes would also encourage people to come to the Islands, to see the sights and the locations of the events. The Falkland Islanders have done such a lot of work to create museums showing Falkland Island life. Would be nice to see the background to these stories.
Irrespective of any legal right that Argentina may, or may not, have to the Malvinas the UK will be returning the islands within the next 25 years.
Oct 28th, 2014 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#105
Oct 28th, 2014 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where have I heard that before ? How about this one:-
Respecting that Argentina has no right to the Falklands, I predict that the UK will either keep the islands as a BOT or grant independence within the next 25 years.
More likely than your scenario.
I'll give you a prediction you can bank.
Oct 28th, 2014 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CFK is more likely to become the next Pope than Argentina is to get sovereignty of the Falkland Islands!
@104
Oct 28th, 2014 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Didn't I read somewhere that Pepper and Pascoe were making a documentary?
That being said, it's a more robust government response I believe to be necessary. Somebody should stand up in the UN and go through the Argentine claim point by point, showing where the UN has been lied to.
I think a clarkson style documentary would be best. Leave the viewer correctly believing the Argentine position is nonsense that only a fruitcake could support. Make it clear they have no case, and hundreds have died because of their insanity.
Oct 28th, 2014 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Every lie, every rewrite of history, every piece of abuse should be ripped apart and make CFK and Gollum a laughing stock.
Hepatia must have run out of topics to argue about, or its handlers haven't updated its song sheet lately.
Oct 28th, 2014 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We're back to the boring 25 years scenario again.
Hey, Hepatia, do you actually understand what you type?
Or do you just blindly copy down what is placed in front of you?
Why am l feeding the troll? (shakes head)
Because its fun. (brightens up)
ln 25 years Hepatia, it is quite likely that Argentina has ceased to exist.
In 25 years time, Hepatia may well be pushing up roses..
Oct 28th, 2014 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is of course unless he's not dropped out of a helicopter out at sea first!
Oct 29th, 2014 - 10:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0“UK will be returning the islands within the next 25 years.”
Oct 29th, 2014 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0The UK can't “return” the islands, as Argentina has never owned them in the first place.
If Argentina is not willing to take the case to the ICJ, the *only* appropriate venue for this dispute, then their options are:
1: Negotiate in good faith. No unseemly demands that the only outcome is Argentina getting the Falklands.
2: Attempt another illegal invasion and occupation.
3: Drop the dispute once and for all.
I doubt anyone sane would relish 2, given the advancements both nations have had in military technology. Not to mention the increased self-defence forces on the Falklands would make for a bloody conflict.
3 is of course, the fairest option given all of the facts. And really, wouldn't it be better for Alicia Castro to be able to bring legitimate grievances to the UK for a change?
@108
Oct 29th, 2014 - 01:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“That being said, it's a more robust government response I believe to be necessary. Somebody should stand up in the UN and go through the Argentine claim point by point, showing where the UN has been lied to.”
All UK governments have never bothered researching the proper history behind the Falklands which is why they are always caught in the glare of Argentine headlights and believe the RGs when a slight perusal of history shows a different perspective, which anyway it is examined does not give Argentina a stronger case over the Falklands than the UK's.
Similarly, because previous to the last few years even the MLAs have had NO IDEA what their own history is. Although correctly sticking by self-determination, they have in the past been unable to see (via SIMPLE research )that the past history has not been embarrassing to their cause but actually backs up their position when examined in detail as it has on these posts. So therefore I agree with you but think Monkeymagic's idea would have more effect:
@109 monkeymagic
“I think a clarkson style documentary would be best”
I have previously been in favour of a standard BBC documentary and despite my loathing of Clarkson on some issues, he did a good job on a documentary concerning WW2 raid, (Dieppe, I think but not sure).
A documentary after proper historical research on the period 1765 (or even better going back further), perhaps to 1850, would be the perfect way for Clarkson to show Argentina up for what it is, and with his use of satire to emphasise where Argentina tells lies. Imagine the publicity effect if the programme was sold worldwide on the back of Top Gear being popular.
It is high time we realised that previous history backs up Britain's claim and even if the false theory that Britain came out of nowhere to evict Argentina in 1833 was focussed on, Argentine myths still believed at the UN would crumble.
@114, it was the St Nazaire raid, also known as Operation Chariot.
Oct 29th, 2014 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid
I'm not so sure that Clarkson would have the historical authority of Simon Schama, but he would be very popular to those that watched the programme.
It all depends on the length of the programme. If it was a single hour long show, it would not be able to cover all of the history in detail. A serious of shows and dramatic reconstruction of the events, to show what actually happened.
This would not only be important to recognise the events of 1764 - 1811, but also what happened in 1820, 1826, the Lexington raid and the piracy by Vernet of the American ships, followed by the restoration of British control, the murders by Rivero and then the peaceful building of the colony and immigration from all over the world - including Argentina!
Most of all - the Arana Southern Treaty and what led up to it.
The more you show, the more you convince everyone that not only does Argentina have no claim, but that they know they have no claim and they've been lying to other nations about their claim with the intention of gaining support under false pretences.
So if it's an hour long = Clarkson.
If it's longer = Schama.
@115 Nigel
Oct 29th, 2014 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for the correction, re St Nazaire.
And yes, I see your point about how long the documentary would run depending on the presenter.
Maybe Clarkson could handle 1833 and without wishing to sound like a scratched record, the fact that most of Pinedo's sailors being British (and ejected)could be used for ironic effect by Clarkson, and that the 'hero Rivero' elected to stay at Port Louis under British rule. Also the fact he included a proto Argentinian amongst his victims, plus the french guy that Pinedo tried to leave as proto-Argentina's representative. Whilst quirky, these points work against Argentina's portrayal of what happened.
But another several part documentary could be hosted by a serious historian, even delving into The Treaty of Utrecht and the original claim by Argentina going back to the papal bull-but emphasising that for example using that, Portugal should claim South Georgia to name two examples of the anomalies that come to light regarding Argentina's claim when a less than shallow glance is taken with historical treaties/events.
“The more you show, the more you convince everyone that not only does Argentina have no claim, but that they know they have no claim and they've been lying to other nations about their claim with the intention of gaining support under false pretences.”
I agree, it is not enough to ignore Argentina's farcical claims but to prove they are rubbish with proper referencing to erode the support they have in the world which is gained on the basis of what Argentina says is true about 1833 etc.
At least the documentary will make some think.
116
Oct 29th, 2014 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with you,
the British government by now, should be actively disproving the argie claim, and try to end this.
The aim is to sell the message that the Argwntine government is lying to the point of insanity.
Oct 29th, 2014 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Most people wouldn't spend more than an hour learning the topic.
Clarkson style piss take of Argentine lies would have the biggest impact.
@116, 117 & 118
Oct 29th, 2014 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with you all.
Clarkson's wit and popularity would be an advantage and he would tear the Argie claims to shreds.
I'm not sure that the British Government ought to be the ones to tell the story though. Far better that the Islanders do it. The Argies accused the British Government of organising the Referendum, when in truth it was entirely the idea of and organised by the Islanders. The Argies didn't want to admit this, because it would of course add legitimacy to the Islanders rights to Self-Determination.
The best way to hurt the Argies is to remove their support by showing the lies they've told. Pepper & Pascoe did a lot to put together all the lies and how many times they deceived the UN, but if Clarkson was to show the documents which prove that Argentina was lying, that they knew they were deceiving other countries - because they were trying to be colonial - and that they had copied the Nazis by committing genocide - more than once, then many would be outraged.
117 Briton
Oct 29th, 2014 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for posting those two articles about Filmus and laughable. All to have the Brits withdraw.
I can't imagine anyone except El Niño, Hepatia, and Marcos, took him seriously
True...
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