MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentine technical mission to China to assess the purchase of jet fighters
It's official: in the coming weeks a technical delegation from Argentina's Air Force will be travelling to China to assess the convenience of purchasing Chinese jet fighters to replace the obsolete French made Mirages. Only a month ago president Cristina Fernandez was in Beijing where she sealed an “integral strategic alliance” with China. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment ruleslaughable!
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0If Pakistan and other nations have being able to adapt themselves to Chinese tech, I don’t see this as a problem. The problem is that Argentina doesn't have 5 Bn US$ to purchase the 14 J10s at the moment and although the Typhoon is technically better in everything, they should be good enough for the job and leveling the Arg Air force with Chile’s and Brazil’s air forces. The Chinese aircraft remain untested and non reliable as all things Chinese, but the cost of maintaining them is the problem if you already have A4 and Mirages that can’t be afforded to be fixed and have flying and are falling from the sky when they do…. I would rather the next government decide from the Israelis, French, Chinese, Russian offers with the little or no money they will have left and many debts and commitments they inherit from the Ks.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 12:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry, they can't have French or Israeli aircraft, the UK has already blocked those options.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 01:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Just ask 'Briton' he will have the relevant info.
Meanwhile, 'The Bubble' has an interesting article...
http://www.bubblear.com/sea-slow-decay-argentine-military/
““The Argentine Air Force largely consists of a collection of obsolete aircraft mostly dating back to the 1970s, which are frequently grounded due to poor serviceability. ”
How will they cope with unfamiliar tech?
3
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 01:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Sorry, they can't have French or Israeli aircraft, the UK has already blocked those options.”
Nonesense
If the UK would have had these veto capability of other western nations providing Argentina British posters here claim, it would have certainly prohibit the US modernizing the avionics of the A-4s in the 1990s when Britain had not typhoons but Panavia Tornados in the islands and Argentina was still a regional power.
Besides Israel is non NATO country.
The reason why Argentina has not modernized and has crumbling armed forces is because of the Kichnerist government and that defense expenditure is spent on 80% wages and now internal espionage and failed projects like the Pampa III aircraft.
So the next government not only gets a country with record debts and commitmets, it actually has to start spending on infrastructure and defence that the incredibly corrput and useless Ks have not invested a single dollar on in more than 12 years.
@4
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 01:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Don't forget the costs of putting up La Campora thugs at army bases to influence local elections.
http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/imoyaro/chopperlaff_zpsrpl58kjd.gif
“Besides Israel is non NATO country”
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 01:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0haha! really? only on paper, perhaps... You know this, stop being silly.
“in the 1990s [...] and Argentina was still a regional power.”
Argentina has not been a 'regional power' since 1982.
The rest of your comments are more in-line with the actualité, môn cherie...
@6
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 02:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0The reason Argentina has not purchased any aircraft from Israel or France is because it lacks the money to do. After all Israelis (our ally in 1982) did offer the K-firs did they not? The real problem here now is what the Ks sign with the Chinese behind doors, and present this as a great accomplishment of their diplomacy and turns up to be some Chinese crap they buy and burden the next government to pay up.
It was a regional power in 1990s even if Menem had already forced to cut conscription and defence expenditure, he did keep the armed forces in operational shape.
“a regional power in the 1990s”
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 02:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0??
Why did it not re-invade the Falklands then?
Also the recent Isreali offer was quietly rescinded due to UK back-room diplomacy, no other reason.
UK diplomacy is a bit like UK Nuclear-armed submarines. Unseen, and very powerful.
-------------------------------
“The real problem here now is what the Ks sign with the Chinese behind doors, and present this as a great accomplishment of their diplomacy and turns up to be some Chinese crap they buy and burden the next government to pay up. ”
This, however, I agree with.
And the same goes for textiles. In Vnzla now, you can only buy really cheap, crap Chinese clothes, textiles and electronics. Nothing else is available. This was very different 15 years agao, and could be your future too. That is what China wants, ultimately.
You know you should do your own research before making yourself believe that the Caliphate of Britanistan ( the fuckhole of the Muslims in Europe) is going to tell Israel what to do.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 02:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Here are the facts
UK demanded Israel to pass over information and details about the sale of the K firs to Argentina. It had nothing to do with UK ordering Israel not to supply Argentina, at principle Argentina backed down due to a string of accidents and problems with the K firs that Colombian Air forces already operates.
Colombian Minister of defense announced e will scrap its K firs in the course of the next 4 or 5 years.
http://www.defensasur.com.ar/index.php/america-del-sur/argentina/7934-kfir-para-la-faa-se-reducen-las-chances
Firstly, stop making yourself look so ignorant with all this 'caliphate of Britanistan' rubbish. you do yourself a dis-service.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Secondly: The UK does not 'order' anyone to do anything. As usual you are looking through Argentine 'gafas de sol'.
British diplomacy is much more nuanced, deep and clever. Pressure is brought to bear, offers are made, side-deals become flexible.
Classic British Diplomacy is the way of telling some-one to 'get the hell out' in such a way that he thanks you, and probably thought it was his idea to leave the room.
Such complexities and sophistication are probably lost on you.
As it it should be, just as we wish it to be so.
I doubt you will ever truly understand it, unless we want you to....
;-)
Currently the UK has one of the most respected and feared military forces in the world, and Argentina does not.
Currently the UK has huge global diplomatic and economic influence, and Argentina does not.
Maybe that is all that really matters?
What is the official name, The United Caliphates of Britanistan?? Let me tell you something sweetie. That you don’t want to recognize the reality of your own streets and what I have being telling you guys for more than a year doesn’t mean to say that world leaders and outsiders don’t recognize this geopolitical fact all due to this absurd and cowardly display of political correctness. You recognized Palestine along with Sweden (UK and Sweden the rape capitals of Europe) and organized a major boycott of Israeli goods and sells to Israel, ... While Bibi Netanyahu doesn’t waste time recommending the Jews of Europe to pack out before it gets ever more nasty and move to Israel where they will be far more safer… you know, with a WALL between them and the Muslims and all that.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 04:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0And the facts remain, there is no fact or indicator that Israel was induced and out convinced in non selling weapons to Argentina. The recently modernized K-firs started to break down on the Colombian air force last year. That is what made the Ks get something right, just once ever in government. But still this must be decided by the next government.
Besides don’t worry, they are not for the Falklands despite what all the politicians say, UK is just the most palatable enemy to scare people with, its other countries and factors that will challenge Argentina’s security in the following years.
As I always say the war you need to fight is in your own street 8000 miles away from Argentina and the islands, and you are losing it.
There is nothing to fight for. I mean who can be bothered to be moved to action over a stinkhole filled with clogged sewers aka England?
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 05:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Speaking of your own streets, Nostrils TOBY, tell us how your Argentine Jewish community felt when 85 Argentine Jews were murdered in your own country by the Iranian people - then covered up by your own incompetence and corruption.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 05:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0I see CabezaDura has gone off the deep end again. Anti-Muslim rants and rape capital claims. Well at least some countries are willing to publish their crime statistics.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 06:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Simple fact is that no one other than the Chinese has sold any aircraft to the Argentineans recently Must be a reason especially considering Argentina has been so desperate.
lf they buy something that they don't need with money that they don't have, Argenchia will be even more in debt.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 09:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Word of warning, amigos.
Think very carefully before you try to cheat the Chinese.
Read the fine print,
Or is it too late for all that?
Better start learning Mandarin, Think, Marcos & all the others.
You're going to need it!
Even if the Argentinians could get the Chengdu-J10B and assuming the aircraft had parity with the Typhoon, combat skill and tactics would be to the forefront.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Starting from scratch, Argentina would be at a huge disadvantage in this respect. I am not being jingoistic but realistic.
The UK has trained for decades against ALL possible adversaries and has honed it's skill to a fine art. You can be a skilled and brave airman and still be creamed by a superbly trained adversary. Argentina found this out in 1982 when they did not win ONE air-to-air combat against the UK.
History would repeat itself again.
“....a technical delegation from Argentina's Air Force will be travelling to China to assess the convenience of purchasing Chinese jet fighters to replace the obsolete French made Mirages...”
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0“assess the convenience of purchasing ” Hmmmm, it doesn’t sound like the Argentine Air Force is overcome with excitement at this prospect.
So the Chinks think that the Chengdu J-10B fighter has the capability of confronting the “RAFs' Typhoons stationed in the Falkland Islands”?
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Highly doubtful given the lack of experience of the argie pilots and it doesn't really matter anyway. What about two or three T45's that would be in the equation?
Game over.
'...according to the website China Military Online, closely linked to the Red Army, this fighter has the capability of confronting the “RAFs' Typhoons stationed in the Falkland Islands”. The website argues that purchasing the FC-1 'would be a waste of money' and the air war expert Xu Yongling points out the J-10B can be equipped with mid-range air to air missiles and close range missiles, comparable to the US AIM-120 and the 'Sidewinder'.'
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting that a Chinese Military web site would bring up that comparison, I wonder what the performance spec submitted by the Argies stated as the priority for a new fighter?
Apparently the deal includes the ejector seat as standard,
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0but apparently NOT the engine, as this is considered as an Extra...
I'm sure they would all be shipped with a shutoff chip as well. ;)
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 01:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/imoyaro/chopperlaff_zpsrpl58kjd.gif
@2. Tell us who's bought J10s and got them delivered? Pakistan signed a deal for 36 in 2009. They're still waiting!
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@4. Really? Then read this http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/americas/2014/11/30/argentinas-jet-fighter-replacement-options-narrow/19698473/
It's worth reading up on the offered aircraft to see where components come from. By all means have a combat jet with no ejection seat. Yep, the ejection seats come from Britain! And it seems that Britain has more clout than you think. Perhaps Britain asked our friendly Americans to drop a quiet word to the Israelis!
@11. You prove that you don't understand what you 'read'. Try this. http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/americas/2014/11/30/argentinas-jet-fighter-replacement-options-narrow/19698473/
If you can actually read the article, you'll see that there has been no change in the UK's policy. Palestine has NOT been recognised by Britain. Nor is it likely that it will be. The British people are only too aware of where many terrorists originate. Do you think anyone would believe that palestinian terrorists would stop mounting attacks on Britain or British assets because so-called 'palestine' was recognised? Palestinian 'authorities' don't have that sort of control. So, if the moment came, the British people would tell the government what to do. Or else.
#2 CD
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...they should be good enough for the job and leveling the Arg Air force with Chile’s and Brazil’s air forces.”
Probably the most ignorant comment in MP today. In the late 70's through the mid-80's, the Argentinian Air Force was highly respected. Their pilots exhibited great skill and bravery with well maintained equipment. Assuming that Brazil and Chile would allow their air defense programs to deteriorate while Argentina would embark on an aggressive rebuilding of theirs, it would take a decade to reach parity. (And as you know, Brazil and Chile are doing the opposite.)
The other minor problems Argentina faces is a corrupt, incompetent and demoralized military that has been underfunded for two decades.
@22
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is no evidence that Israel dropped its offer due to British diplomatic pressure, if it dropped it at all to the date. And that is my point. Even in your own link it states
“But, according to Emilio Meneses, a defense analyst based at Santiago, the reasons Buenos Aires failed to take earlier measures to replace its old Mirages, which were procured both new and second-hand in the 1970s and ’80s, “are more related to local politics and fiscal finances than to any kind of foreign intervention.””
“As a result, the Spanish Mirage F-1s were discarded and negotiations to procure a number of refurbished Israel Aerospace Industries Kfir fighter jets started. The negotiations suffered from a lack of support from Argentina’s higher levels of government, and the Air Force also had some misgivings about the aging Israeli machines[ the ones that Colombia Air Force went through last year and I mentioned ]. As result of both, the negotiations stalled.”
There is no evidence appart from the veto of the Saab Grippen, that the UK has the capacity you & ilsen allege.
So its only the executive holding back?? 274 UK MPs recognized Palestine only 12 voted against. That’s pretty much a foregone conclusion for Israel or anyone. Cameron ain't going to last forever and the mood on the streets is changing.
@23 I know all that, but you are not actually saying anything by contrast nor addressing what is wrong with that comment.
Besides Chile has those F 16 you bought from the Netherlands they were actually built in the 1980s give it another decade from now, that you claim Argentina and they will be pretty old, if it goes ahead will have brand new fighter jets.
@24 CD2
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BUT the Martin-Baker ejector seats that ALL military aircraft use (including those in Israel) are British technology and they cannot sell it on to anyone without British government approval, which they can withdraw at any time they wish.
So it is entirely possible that the UK put the kibosh on the sale of the ejector seats, meaning that the aircraft wouldn't be safe to fly, making them worthless - unless you are suicidal of course.
However, it is more likely that the Israeli's put the kibosh on the sale themselves, being that Argentina's newest bestest friends are Israel's enemy - namely the Iranians. Who's to say that Argentina wouldn't've sold on the aircraft or it's secrets to Iran for a few barrels of oil?
Face it, the Argentine government has been alienating Argentina from it's traditional allies to form alliances with countries that have abysmal human rights records - such as Iran and China, so it is no wonder that sane countries are refusing to sell Argentina even second hand military hardware.
I have no problem with Argentina upgrading it's military, if that's where it wants to spend it's money, but the way I see it is that Argentina will be more of a menace to it's Latin American neighbours than they will be to the Falklands.
No wonder Chile and Brazil have been upgrading their own military.
@25
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 04:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Get your facts straight, Israel offered the K-firs, after Argentina signed with Iran the memorandum. Its by far a question of lack of money and political mess that is stopping Argentina arming itself.
“I have no problem with Argentina upgrading it's military, if that's where it wants to spend it's money, but the way I see it is that Argentina will be more of a menace to it's Latin American neighbors than they will be to the Falklands.
No wonder Chile and Brazil have been upgrading their own military.”
It’s in buffer states (like Paraguay and Uruguay) interests that Brazil and Argentina cancel each other out.
If there is a war on the Atlantic side of South America it will have nothing to do with Antarctica or the Falklands, it will be in the Rio de la Plata basin and river network. And it has more to do with Brazils inability to connect its interior with its coastal cities and the heads of navigation that are on Paraguay and Uruguay shores. Of course its much easier for politicians in UNASUR to comment that any arms purchase and defense has far more to do with a foreign power wandering about in the South Atlantic, its more politically palatable to sell and less complex.
There is no plans to invade the Falklands, because even if tomorrow say 20 J 10s arrive in Argentina manned by Chinese pilots nationalized Argentine with all the equipment and long rage missiles. The UK needs to place a couple of Nuclear subs and a last generation frigate off the River plate and place a commercial blockade, fire some 100 tomahawks on sensible economical assets and bring Argentina to its knees in less than a week, Argentina doesn’t have anti sub equipment, it doesn’t have a navy nor a carrier.
Tin pots on heads again I see, basement dwellers frantically stocking up on tinfoil.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Theories abound, get me the heads of staff on screen, activate operation dominoes, clear browser history and tell mother to prepare more hot coco.
I'd always feared it would come to this ....
Has one thought that the deal with CFK and the red menace
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0may well be a trail by china ,
as to the fact that CFK may well use them, thinking they are that good, and from the Chinese point of view just testing to see how good the Eurofighters really are,
im not saying it would happen,
but from china's point of view, they certainly would be watching and seeing the ability and capability of her fighters in combat,
after all china has nothing to lose, but a lot to gain , depending on the outcome,
Argentina on the other hand has nothing to gain but stupidity,
and everything to lose, including face...
just saying like.
It sounds from CFK that Argentina's economy has recently moved massively into the black!
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's my guess that the sum involves huge borrowing from China.
The pay-back comes in terms of prime land and the 'purchase' of Chinese war-planes will be part of the financial package, eventually to be repaid by the transfer of even more prime land.
Of course, any 'war' in and around the Falklands will involve massive attrition of these 'Chinese' jets. Argentina, brought to its knees by 'war', will need to pay off the Chinese financial package by the transfer of even more prime land. The land-sale limitations, fixed in law, will be quietly forgotten.
I imagine the Chinese can't believe their luck, progressively getting the continents of Africa AND South America 'for a song'.
No wonder their smiles have split their inscrutabilities!
@28 Briton
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is one thing that you haven't taken into account. It isn't necessarily the airframe being flown but the skill and bravery of the pilots.
In the Falklands War the Argentinian Airforce had more advanced aircraft than the British, and there is no doubt that they had skilled and brave pilots. Unfortunately the pilots never spoke to their ground crew, especially the armourers who fitted the fuses on the missiles, and thus they launched their missiles whilst they were too close to the RN ships. This meant that a fair number of the missiles never exploded.
This was good fortune for the British, as we may have lost more ships and men otherwise. But it does show a disconnect between the 'Officers' and 'Other Ranks' that was apparent throughout the Argentine armed forces.
It's doubtful that attitude has changed much. Added to that is the fact that Argentina no longer has skilled pilots with thousands of hours of flying time in a modern fighter plane.
So it is doubtful that the Chinese would take any attempt by Argentina to 'test' these airframes against the Typhoons.
Besides the Chinese have fought the British before and wouldn't be stupid enough to underestimate us or our determination to protect our country, territories and the people who live their.
To paraphrase the Chinese General in charge of the Chinese Army following the Glorious Glosters defence of Hill 235 in Korea - 650 men against 10,000: “If this is how you defend a country that means nothing to you then I pity the men who invade England.”
@26 CD2
Maybe the Israeli's thought that they might sell old airframes to Argentina at one point, but when you started cozying up to Iran then I'm sure there were more than one security expert telling the Israeli government about what a bad idea it would be, probably bordering on treason.
You see 1 government dept is told to unload old aircraft for as much as they can get, enter Argentina, but then security steps in and stops it dead because of Iran.
30 LEPRecon
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for that I appreciate what you say,
1-- in Korea - 650 men against 10,000: “If this is how you defend a country that means nothing to you then I pity the men who invade England.”
I was not born then, but did read abt it, and it does prove that experience and determination helps greatly,
2,
but the skill and bravery of the pilots,
here I agree with you, but I was slightly referring to perhaps Chinese pilots, I don’t know how experienced they are, but one does tend to think that they have a reason or something behind the sale of planes to argentina knowing the tension that it would cause,
Unless they were hoping for a distraction for their activities in the south china seas,
…
.
As ever with any aircraft Argentina purchases, even the J10, the risk for Argentina is that any dedicated attack that results in Eurofighters being attacked gives the UK an excuse to attack Argentine airfields, with Cruise missiles, then once the J10s can't take off or land-a follow up with Tornado GR4s with Storm Shadow .
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If the nearest Argentine runways are hit, any amount of J10s are irrelevant.
There is a big ho har about the big British carriers not being in service for years.
But if in that time an RAF Lightning squadron to eventually replace the Harrier is formed, there are many locations in the Falkland Islands where they could operate from, the Falkland Islands being a rather bigger aircraft carrier than even the Queen Elizabeth.
These are some of the latest news,
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That can be used in the Falklands.
UK announces Brimstone integration for Typhoon
British Procurement Minister Philip Dunne announced on Saturday at the International Defence Exhibition that he was “looking forward to announcing further air-to-ground strike capability” for the Typhoon
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-announces-brimstone-integration-typhoon/
/////////
Analysis of 2 Group RAF Part 2: ISTAR/Comms
To prowling the skies capturing enemy communications for the Intelligence Specialists to interpret thus giving the British Armed Forces a major advantage over most of our potential enemies be they Rogue States, Terrorists, Pirates or Drug Smugglers
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-announces-brimstone-integration-typhoon/
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
HMS Duncan fitted with Harpoon
Photos have emerged of HMS Duncan fitted with Harpoon.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-announces-brimstone-integration-typhoon/
.
@24. You're quite right. 'the mood on the streets is changing'. The mood on the streets now works like this. (1) Don't let any of the buggers in here. (2) Kill them before they hurt us. (3) What are a couple of million arabs to us? (4) Terrorists have to be killed. (5) Arabs have always been disgusting creatures. And now they're islamic as well. Islam needs to be annihilated. (6) Let's all crap on argieland.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By the way, I'm HERE. Where are you?
@26. Hilarious. Did you manage to read both articles or did your brain explode after the first one? It must be so hard to read things that say something else. And off you go on a different tack. How nice of you to tell us how to eliminate argieland. Why not just imagine 7 or 8 British subs off the argie coast? 2 subs couldn't fire 100 Tomahawks at once because they can only carry 30 each. But 7 could launch 200. Then back off a few miles and re-arm. From the armed Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels. Perhaps we could send a couple of helicopter carriers. Apache gunships! We don't make up our capabilities. Meanwhile more Typhoons are ferried using the RAF Voyager tanker/transports. Try dealing in reality.
No, The Argentina Air Force is more interested in the J-10A.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Regards from Argentine
26
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 10:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I already explained, Israel's offer after dates the Argentine Iranian memorandum of Addis ababa in 2013, plus it’s also clear with the Nisman case that this goes back even further to early 2o11, so the Mossad would have long known this. Accept that you are wrong and Israel doesn’t give a fuck of what the UK say.
27. I don’t know if its old age or if you picked up a serious bug while penetrating foreign fruitcakes in jail and has affected your brain. The overwhelming chances are your own MP voted for the recognition of Palestine. 274 votes for, 12 against, numbers don’t lie old git.
@31 Briton
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is NO WAY that the Chinese Government would send it's pilots to attack UK military or civilian assets. They really aren't that stupid, and they do a lot of trade with the UK, the Commonwealth and her NATO allies.
Remember that any attack on ANY member of NATO is considered an attack on all members, so they wouldn't just be facing the UK but the USA, France, Canada, Germany etc... Also Commonwealth countries have a treaty that they would defend each other should they be attacked by an outsider, so that would mean that Australia, New Zealand and numerous others would start aligning themselves against the Chinese.
The Chinese just wouldn't risk it for so little potential return (i.e. to see how long their aircraft survive against the UK's anti aircraft defences). Remember that the Chinese always play the long game.
However, I wouldn't put it past them to 'encourage' the Argentinians to try something just to see what reaction there was. They know that it is unlikely that the UK would invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter if only faced with Argentina. They're more likely to persuade the Argentinians to put their stick into the hornets nest and see what happens.
Besides why would the Chinese risk their pilots for Argentina? They wouldn't carelessly throw away the lives of their pilots, people who it has taken years to train, on a whim, especially an Argentinian whim.
You have to understand this. Argentina will not recover the Falkland Islands by force. Those planes are to defend the mainland.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 038.
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That’s what I have being trying to explain these ignorants. It seems Argentina doens't have neighbours and internal security threats nor a right to defend itself.
37@
Mar 02nd, 2015 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0thanks.
Re; 90% of the above comments. I've never read such drivel.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 01:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0100% of the above comment. I've never read such drivel.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 03:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0heehee!
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 03:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0was a bit busy with business, now I have returned,
I'm glad to see that I can kick off such a debate!
Still, it does prove that my original point, being that; Argentina is always frustrated by UK diplomacy in its pathetic attempts to acquire new military hardware with money it does not have.
*still laughing*
~ilsen
It sounds from CFK's mega-speech that Argentina's economy has recently moved massively into the black!
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 10:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's my guess that the sum involves huge borrowing from China.
........ did it happen - I've been away for a few weeks?
Any pay-back will come in terms of prime land
and the 'purchase' of Chinese war-planes will be part of the financial package,
eventually to be repaid by the transfer of even more prime land.
Of course, any 'war' involving the Falklands will incur massive attrition of these old 'Chinese' jets and Argentinian pilots etc.
Argentina, brought to its knees by 'war', will need to pay off the Chinese financial package by the transfer of even more prime land.
The land-sale limitations, fixed in law, will be quietly forgotten.
I imagine the Chinese can't believe their luck, progressively getting the continents of Africa AND South America 'for a song'.
No wonder their smiles have split their inscrutabilities!
@39
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0“That’s what I have being trying to explain these ignorants. It seems Argentina doens't have neighbours and internal security threats nor a right to defend itself.”
I am not doubting Argentina has a right to defend itself and with only 20 aircraft a sensible Argentine government would base these around BA, and of course Argentina has to take surrounding countries into account.
I am only speculating that if Argentina is stupid enough to use aircraft to posture against the UK, using the Malvinas Myth to distract people from the real problems needing solution in Argentina, then it will make things for Argentina much worse. If these aircraft are based where they are needed (to protect Argentina), there will be no problem.
But given the erratic nature of the Argentine government, a use of aircraft for a self destructive purpose cannot be ruled out while a lunatic like CFK is in power.
Well,
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0general plastics have offered to rebuild her Navy/air force,
just like they did with her face....lol
I wouldn't be too harsh on the Chinese here. This is what they do to venerable and developing countries. Its like what they do in Africa, offer to build roads and infrastructure in exchange for mining rights etc. In this case its fighter jets in exchange for corned beef or whatever else the argies have to offer.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let's see what happens to this show of smoke and mirrors when a new president is elected.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. If he's a Peronist, there will be a re-negotiation of the fighter purchases to maximize bribe playoffs to the new administration.
2. If he's a reformist, the whole sham deal will be cancelled as it's fools errand in the long run anyway.
The real threat against the Argentine nation is within, NOT outside her borders.
(By the way, the next president will be a man as the populace is sick and tired of having a hormone challenged perra running their country.)
48
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good points
Let me see if I get this correct.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentines claim that the Spanish F1 was not purchased because they couldn't raise the funds.
Then they say that they decided not to buy the Kfirs, after the Colombians reported problems, but there was also a problem raising the deposit the Israelis required.
Then the Gripen was not purchased because of a British equipment veto. However, there was also the problem of finding the funds to pay Brazil.
There seems to be a theme here..... lack of money.
The Russians offer to RENT some attack aircraft... because apparently Argentina cannot afford to BUY them. But of course, this doesn't matter to Putin, because the aircraft are now obsolete. The youngest of which was built over 20 years ago, but most of the ones Argentina will receive will be older than the Argentina Mirage 2000 fleet which can no longer fly for lack of spares!
So the Chinese offer Argentina a $Billion of credit to buy Chinese goods in return for installing satellite tracking stations, without the permission of congress (naughty)...... and a massive bribe to the witch (very naughty!) under armed Chinese PLA control.
Then the Chinese discuss the sale of offshore patrol boats and mention some cheap fighters that they would like to flog.
Unfortunately, it's a poor man's copy of the Eurofighter, the Chengdu J-10B, which was sold to Pakistan in 2009, but they have still not received any. It only has a single engine and even that was designed to be as part of a pair for the SU-27. So it appears that this underpowered fighter might not be available, as the Pakistanis have paid for theirs and Argentina hasn't.
Then there's this curious matter of the reason why Argentina needs them.
It's suggested that Argentina has a right to modernise her armed forces to protect herself from her neighbours.
But if I am right - these are the same 'neighbours' who are so supportive of Argentine claims?!
So why would Argentina need to protect herself from these 'friends'?!
Why would GB need fighters - All neighboring countries are EU friends.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 06:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So why would GB need to protect itself from these 'friends ?!
Such a “curious reason”.
Don't be ridiculous.
51 Vestige
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You make an objection to one minor point, but you ignore Nigel's major points, lack of money, Chinese bribes and Argentine politicians' corruption.
You don't seem to have any doubts about those truths.
LOL
Except that none of our EU partners (except Spain) are considered hostile to UK interests.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The main threat to the UK is still any state that threatens British or NATO territory, or any state that sponsors terrorism.
I again ask the question, why should Argentina feel threatened by her regional neighbours if these same neighbours support Argentine claims?
Your friends have suggested:
“If there is a war on the Atlantic side of South America it will have nothing to do with Antarctica or the Falklands, it will be in the Rio de la Plata basin and river network. And it has more to do with Brazils inability to connect its interior with its coastal cities and the heads of navigation that are on Paraguay and Uruguay shores.”
The suggestion is that Argentina is re-arming because of regional differences with her 'friends'. Isn't it strange that these 'friends' are considered such a threat to Argentina that you need to re-arm. You were trying to buy fighters from one of these 'friends' before the deal fell through.
The truth is that these fighters and attack aircraft are needed to threaten the oil rigs off the Falkland Islands. You cannot make a credible threat without the aircraft or the ships and you have neither.
Now that the rigs are in place and drilling is about to commence, Argentina is aware that the Falkland Islanders are about to become wealthy, whilst Argentina falls into the depths of poverty.
Jealous much?!
Why would GB need fighters - All neighbouring countries are EU friends.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 07:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are they? Would you trust em…
……….
So why would GB need to protect itself from these 'friends ?!
[ with friends like Spain, who needs enemies…]
Don't be ridiculous==don’t be silly…lol
.....
eye think that if Argentina wants only to promote peace, as they say,
why cant they buy planes that cant fire either bullets or rockets/missiles,
that way, they can still have military planes, but just wont be able to shoot anyone,
after all aint all argentine neighbours there friend.
'51
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have noticed a belligerence from Russia towards the UK and NATO ?
Recently we have had Russian aircraft practicing mock attacks on Britain from just outside our airspace. As NATO members we have a commitment to come to the aid of fellow members. Aircraft are part of this commitment.
Who do you suspect will attack Argentina ? The rest of S.A. have combat aircraft. Is your requirement to protect you from them ?
Argies must be very scared and frightened if they need fighters to protect them from their friends,
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0after all, who else want to attack them, the bloody squids ...lol
Self-evidently, these weapons are to protect the government from the people.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@56 Briton,
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 09:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well the F.I.D.F. might invade Argentina.
There is the small matter of unfinished business re our claims on Santa Cruz Province.
By malvinista logic it belongs to us as the British were there BEFORE the Argentines.
Sta Cruz is ours & we might tempt Chile to help us by giving them a free hand in Chubut.
l'm sure they'd like an Atlantic coastline.
lts only fair, if Argentina can make ridiculous “claims”, then so can anyone.
Lol, lol, lol, lolz.
A veritable buffet of nonsense, assumptions and flawed logic.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Which one to address with my limited time and tolerance.
I find Troy's comment to be slightly more juvenile and dis-ingenuous than the others, so him.
Well Troy, there are truths in those areas you mention, and although I sincerely doubt said truths are as tabloid worthy as you'd like them to be theres no reason I'd purposely shy away from them. But its a strange concept you seem to operate by, that by not talking about every single mentioned thing on a page there is now an inference of denial.
If you'd care to reply I'll parody your style by questioning why you never talk about some random topic on the page.
Oh I see Pakistan and Israel are mentioned on the page hmmm ... how come you never mention those countries' hmmmm ?? Afraid to discuss colonial history are we hmmm .... ooh see how he shys away lololololorotflmfao oh my god its so hilarious.
Why don't you discuss the further Islamification of Britain as previously mentioned, in your comments hmmmm .... running scared it seems.
Weasel tactics aside, on the issue of Arg buying Chinese fighters, if you don't like it tough sht, mind your own business for once or do something to stop it.
If the Argentine Government wants to buy Chinese aircraft, then they can but they had better pay for them, because the Chinese have a right to adequate recompense.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Before you sign any deal, you should look long and hard at the deals China has signed with countries all over Africa. The Chinese are very good at building infrastructure. They build beautiful roads for hundreds of miles. They build hospitals and factories, but then they demand payment.
They take over mines and mineral deposits. They take crops. They take lumber, They take fishing rights. They take whatever they need and if the customer cannot pay - then tough - no more goods. The well dries up and China refuses credit.
Be very sure to read the fine print. You see that satellite station which your congress should have approved (but didn't) had secret clauses that allow armed Chinese troops from the PLA to defend their establishments from the locals.
The Chinese are very private people. They keep themselves to themselves. Chinese businessmen have become very wealthy. I would not be surprised if major tracts of rich Argentine land were bought up by the Chinese and peasants shipped in from China to work the land. The Argentine locals would be asked to move away.
And one day, you will wake up and realise that China is running your country. That you are no longer Argentine, but a citizen of the south american province of China...
Hope you enjoy eating rice with chop sticks!
Well, ya got me... unfortunately its true ... Argentina will have to deal with self centered megalomaniac money obsessed Chinese businessmen rather than the benevolent caring altruistic halliburton or walmart brand American businessmen in GB.
Mar 03rd, 2015 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the disaster of China leasing or buying vast tracks of what little land is available one can only hope they don't put military airbases or electronic surveillance centers there. Cause as you imply thats just one step short of eating their fast food.
Argentina doesn't want to end up as some kind of poodle to China, that would be terrible.
58@
Mar 04th, 2015 - 12:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0agreed....lol
Irrespective of whether the Argentinians buy these aircraft or others or buys no aircraft at all the UK will return the Malvinas within the next 25 years.
Mar 04th, 2015 - 12:35 am - Link - Report abuse 063 HEP C
Mar 04th, 2015 - 12:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Cant explain that though can you?
On the other hand...
Argentina will belong to China in less than 25 years
@63
Mar 04th, 2015 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0They were never Argentina's, so they cannot be 'returned'.
They might easily gain independence in the next 25 years.
They might even have a bigger air force than Argentina by then.
They might even have regiments of Gurkhas to protect them.
But one thing is certain.
In 25 years, you will still be in debt to China.
Your inflation will still be high.
Your politicians as corrupt as ever.
Your citizens live in fear of crime.
Your country unable to buy anything on credit, except from your Chinese overlords.
Hepatia, please explain the reasoning and logic behind your comment. You repeat it often enough, but never explain how, or why.
Mar 04th, 2015 - 02:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0CD2
please explain why Argentina needs to re-arm in order to defend itself from its neighbours. What happened to the the alleged 'Latin-American Brotherhood'??
PS: I hear rumours that VNZLA could be getting kicked out of MercoSur... what have you heard?
66
Mar 04th, 2015 - 07:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0but VENEZUELA is their new star partner... right??
Chinese Air Force Nears Introduction of J-10B Fighter
Mar 04th, 2015 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.defencetalk.com/chinese-air-force-nears-introduction-of-j-10b-fighter-63327/
“It is also possible and feasible that the J-10B’s upgraded version will be chosen by the navy to serve on an aircraft carrier or amphibious assault ship,” he added.
.
@ 68 Briton
Mar 04th, 2015 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0““It is also possible and feasible that the J-10B’s upgraded version will be chosen by the navy to serve on an aircraft carrier or amphibious assault ship,” he added.”
It's also possible their old Russian ACC will be useless, just like they do not have a single experienced Driver for it.
The Chin are getting just like the argies: all talk, no can do.
@58 IsoldeThere is the small matter of unfinished business re our claims on Santa Cruz Province.
Mar 04th, 2015 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By malvinista logic it belongs to us as the British were there BEFORE the Argentines.
@63
“Irrespective of whether the Argentinians buy these aircraft or others or buys no aircraft at all the UK will return the Malvinas within the next 25 years”.
And within 25 years Santa Cruz province will vote to become part of the Falkland Islands...ref:
(@58 IsoldeThere is the small matter of unfinished business re our claims on Santa Cruz Province.
By malvinista logic it belongs to us as the British were there BEFORE the Argentines).
Ushuaia will be British again.
Thanks people,
Mar 04th, 2015 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0,,,,,,,
Martin Woodhead
Put this up, abt argentine chances,
It’s a good read,
The Falkland Islands and Our Pants
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/04/the-falkland-islands-and-our-pants/
And very good reading of other blogs as well,
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