MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Griesa blocks Citigroup from paying interest on Argentine bonds; group will appeal
A United States federal judge on Thursday said Citigroup Inc cannot process interest payments by Argentina on some bonds issued under that country's law. U.S. District Judge Thomas Griesa in Manhattan said letting Citigroup process the payments on so-called dollar-denominated exchange bonds would violate a requirement that Argentina treat bondholders equally. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesOh dear!
Mar 13th, 2015 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has some serious bond payments coming up later this year and it looks like the noose is getting tighter.
Mar 13th, 2015 - 01:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0:)
arg robberment, bloody crooks.
Mar 13th, 2015 - 01:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and the banks: organized criminals, working together with these crooks.
“Argentina should discontinue its defiance of courts and negotiate a resolution to this dispute”. Yes, but then Argentina would have to return some of the money they stole...
Mar 13th, 2015 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Champagne for Paul Singer!
Seems to me that the resolution of this matter is quite simple. It might be that “failure would result in “immediate and irreparable injury” to the bank, “including the possible loss of its valuable Argentine banking license.” Who cares? There are few things in business that are without risk. What strikes me most is the sort of attitude evinced by bank managers and executives when a borrower has to go along and tell them that, due to unforeseen circumstances, they will have great difficulty in repaying a loan and actually need more money. The response encountered most often seems to be ”Tough”. Now the boot's on the other foot. How much sympathy is Citigroup expecting? Shouldn't have left itself so 'exposed' should it? It's been in argieland since 1914. Surely it must know how 'bent' the place is?
Mar 13th, 2015 - 04:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But I said that the resolution of this matter seems quite simple. Argies can comply with the court's judgments and pay its debts.
Let's all think about any experiences we may have had with courts in our own countries. Can we imagine how a court would react if any of we ordinary people responded to judgments in the same way as argieland does? We'd probably be sitting in a prison cell on the grounds of committing contempt of court.
When does argieland's contempt hearing come up? I hope Judge Griesa throws the book at them.
Thanks Griesa. Just in time.
Mar 13th, 2015 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hey Kichi, What are you going to do know?
Bwahahaha!!!
#all
Mar 13th, 2015 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Judge Thomas Griesa should be awarded a Nobel Prize.
@ 7 Porto Margaret
Mar 13th, 2015 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For what subject? “Holding to the rule of law in the face of unreasonable actions and putting his life at risk from 'suicide' ”would be a good start.
You just have to LOVE this guy!
#8 ChrisR
Mar 13th, 2015 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Exactly.
He makes me smile and laugh. Both are said to keep one young.
I hope Argentina revokes Citi's license to do banking in Argentina. This may be a way for them to exit the country and not have any legal repercussions.
Mar 13th, 2015 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lots of Rgs lose their jobs and it is merely a rounding error to the potentially lost business to Citi.
Win win.
They just keep on whining.
Mar 13th, 2015 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/184234/government-considers-us-judge-griesas-ruling-a-shameful-excess-of-jurisdiction
Griesa has got us by the balls! Next thing you know they will be seizing our gas imports on the high seas?
Mar 13th, 2015 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But, but, but.... didn't Cristina claim during her 3.5 hour speech recently, that she had lifted Argentina from debt and succesfully fought off the 'vultures' ?
Mar 14th, 2015 - 02:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Or some such nonsense ? I may have paraphrased slightly there, (I honestly can't be bother to look it up, she really isn't worthy of my time), but that was the general impression she tried to give.
oh well, looks they will have to pay eventually...
just a passing thought, but she couldn't be trying to kick the 'can' all the way down the road until she is out of power, just in order to claim that she 'didn't give in' ?
Nah, that is just being cynical...
Or is it?
The main point here is that Judge Griesa's decision is that
Mar 14th, 2015 - 02:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0'the vast majority of exchanged bonds governed by Argentina Law
qualified as external indebtedness” (which means were exchanged and/or
sold outside Argentina).
So what Argentina can do ???
In his efforts to help a small group of greedy financiers, Judge Thomas Griesa keeps his hostage-taking operation on Argentina creditors who agreed to the country's debt restructuring in 2005 and 2010 (they represent 92 per cent of the total debt).
Mar 14th, 2015 - 02:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0I applaud the principled attitude of Cristina Fernández of not caving in to the tactics of NML Capital and other holdouts whose strategy is to buy distressed bonds for pennies on the dollar and then seek help from the courts to recover 100 per cent of the bonds' face value once countries begin recovering.
It's time to stop the maneuvers of speculative financiers, aka vultures, to siphon millions from countries in situation of distress.
@14 Cristina's regime took Argentina hostage. Once countries begin recovering? Exchange controls since 2011....it's been getting worse and worse under the disasterous management of CKF and Kiciloff. More and more control. It's total control before total collapse. NYSE:BZQ just tells me it's closer and closer. No patriot will put in exchange controls and detonate an economy's productive capacity. Cristina and her cabinet are the parasites/vultures.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0@14 Henry ol' boy,
Mar 14th, 2015 - 03:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0So finally you admit that Argentina is a “ countr[y] in situation of distress”.
but, I thought you claimed she had done so much?
Why so much distress, you poor thing?
When will you admit that Cristina is part of a vulture elite bleeding 'your' country dry?
@ 14 Enrique Massot
Mar 14th, 2015 - 05:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tell us, oh mighty brain, who claims that “NML Capital and other holdouts whose strategy is to buy distressed bonds for pennies on the dollar”
How many cents did Argentina pay on the dollar in the restructurings of 2005 and 2010 ?
Tell us, oh mighty brain, is that more or less than the 55.37% and 62.82% of the face value of the respective series NML’s affiliates at various times from 6 June 2001 to 2 September 2003 pay for Argentine bonds“ ?
Tell us, oh mighty brain, as regards its bond sales, did Argentina ”irrevocably submit to the jurisdiction of any New York state or federal court“ ?
Tell us, oh mighty brain, did Argentina ”irrevocably waive her immunity to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such jurisdiction” ?
Tell us, oh mighty brain, did the full United States Court of Appeals affirm judge Griesa's ruling ?
14 Enrique I want to get a loan in Arg, please tell me what bank I can borrow money from? I certainly don't want to pay that nasty bank back as they want to make a profit from me! What I want is to pay the bank back what is fair, maybe 30 cents on what I borrow. Please tell me what bank will accept my terms based on this Arg mentality? Oh and I want the loan in dollars, not that toilet paper they are printing.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 11:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Now “Little One” says Citibank could lose its license in Argentina. I certainly hope so.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/184261/gov%E2%80%99t-warns-citibank-it-could-lose-its-licence
@14. Poor boy? Argieland issued bonds under New York law, abandoning sovereign 'rights' so that people would think all was legal and above board. Crime 1. In 2005, argieland 'restructured'. A polite alternative to 'stole', when you consider that argieland didn't 'negotiate' as it was supposed to. Crime 2. Then argieland did the same again in 2010. Crime 3. Argieland is fortunate that the situation is being dealt with as a civil matter. I suppose there must be reasons why it isn't being dealt with as criminal fraud. Strange how your 'distressed country' can suddenly manage to pay its debts to the Paris Club. A calculation on who can hammer argieland hardest? Do tell us, how many bondholders who accepted argieland's diktat? Extortion at the rate of 70 cents per dollar. Use a bit of math. $70 billion. And NML et al only want $1.33 billion. Shows what corrupt, criminal, lying, thieving, peronist argies are like. Best to do no business, of any sort, with them for the next thousand years. But there is a bright side. China will be taking over. I sit back, close my eyes and imagine argies being whipped off their straw, whipped to the paddy fields, whipped every hour or so, whipped back to their compound, fed their pint of rice gruel and whipped to their plank 'beds'. Maybe some whipping every 2 or 3 hours during the 'night' for the fun of the guards. Can there be videos?
Mar 14th, 2015 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@19. So Citibank has engaged in a conspiracy with the corrupt, criminal argie 'government'? Deserves all it gets. Especially considering its many illicit actions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citigroup#Criticism
For a long time I hoped that the debt collapse would happen under the K regime but I think they've set it up for it to happen under the next Prez.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is a shame.
The Ks ruined the country and their future and I hope people remember it.
The bill will eventually have to be paid, I think soon every class of bond will accelerate and the next Prez will have to renegotiate a debt larger than their GDP a lot larger.
It is disasterous.
I hope that the next Prez doesn't let the Kscum flee the country with their untold looted gazillions.
The original sin is the “take 30% or have nothing extortion” that rotting roadkill perpetrated on those that tried to help it by meeting its previous fiscal liquidity needs. This will never be forgotten no matter how much Reekie and his ilk try to obfuscate this fact. Hurt those that try to help you - that is the rotting roadkillian way. So using the twisted logic of the perronist dogs, those that resisted this victimization (and there successors) should now be further punished for doing so?
Mar 14th, 2015 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0rotting roadkill should have originally agreed to pay a that it owed on a deferred basis. That arrangement would have been honorable. rotting roadkill's current philosophical position is similar to that of the bandito lamenting to the jury about the tenacity of his victim as the causation of his prosecution. No matter how hard Reekie et al tries to portray rotting roadkill's default as a class struggle of populist versus capitalist - it fails. Populism can't be rooted in extortion or thievery. And there has been a world pleblecite on communism and it has been rejected. Give it up Reekie. Your rhetoric only serves the cronyism that has looted rotting roadkill. So Reekie, are you just deluded or are you complicit?
Clearly Citibank are very soon going to have to make a choice as to whether they keep operating in the US, or Argentina.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What are the implications for Argentina of Citibank closing its operation there?
#22 chronic:
Mar 14th, 2015 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The writer attempts to portray as “extortion” Argentina's successful debt restructuring process with creditors representing 92 per cent of the country's foreign debt.
During such process, the parties agreed to allow breathing room permitting the country's economy grow so it would be able to repay creditors.
In 2003, Néstor Kirchner assumed the presidency with a devastated economy and told creditors “the dead can't pay.” Since then, the Argentine economy began recovery and made timely payments to the restructured creditors.
To understand Argentina's refusal to comply with the ruling of Judge Thomas Griesa one must understand that a decision to pay the vultures the 100 per cent of their bonds' face value would not only be unfair to the large majority of creditors who did settle; it would also be unfair to the Argentine people and would set a negative precedent for future debt restructuring process anywhere in the world. A government (ideally) must work on behalf of those it represents.
“Hurt those that try to help you - that is the rotting roadkillian way,” notes Chronic in #22. Chronic would have us to believe Paul Singer and the other vultures are part of a charity organization trying to “help,” the developing world, in a futile attempt to distort world consensus on the need to put a stop of vultures' predatory practices, as stated in Wikipedia:
“On September 9, 2014, the United Nations General Assembly voted to support a new bankruptcy process for sovereign nations, which would promote debt restructuring by excluding so-called “vulture funds” from the process. The vote was 124-11 in favor, with 41 abstentions. The United States voted against the measure.”
I rest my case.
@24
Mar 14th, 2015 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your use of the term “restructuring” for robbery is highly amusing. I would expect no less. ;)
http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/imoyaro/chopperlaff_zpsamu9towd.gif
@24 Enrique Massot
Mar 14th, 2015 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To be fair to the Judge he has spent years trying to get Argentina to negotiate a settlement with the holdouts, before he made the ruling.
Whilst Argentina does have a strong moral argument (the funds in question are just opportunist vultures, who serve no use full purpose for humanity but get rich by creating poverty and misery), Argentina does not have the legal right, or otherwise the power to impose a settlement on them.
The Argentinian government has completely miss-handled this matter, in just about every way possible.
Quique seems to forget about the Italian, German, Japanese pensioners I think 64000 of them that lost their life savings so lazy corrupted Rgs can have a nice life on their stolen loot.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 026. There is no moral high ground to someone who reneged on a debt. They owe it and they should pay.
Argentina will pay and now will end up having to deal with re-negoetiating over 100% of their GDP in outstanding debts to fix the mess.
Filthy deadbeats.
The level of adhesion present in the original 30% extortion is so pervasive that those bondholders could easily be found entitled to the terms of the previously defaulted upon bonds by a court of competent jurisdiction. You heard it. The 92% that caved in to the intimidation of rotting roadkill are now and have indeed always been entitled to repudiate the terms of the discounted replacement bonds and seek reinstitution, enforcement and collection per the original terms.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“On September 9, 2014, the United Nations General Assembly voted to support a new bankruptcy process for sovereign nations, which would promote debt restructuring by excluding so-called “vulture funds” from the process. The vote was 124-11 in favor, with 41 abstentions. The United States voted against the measure.”
Mar 14th, 2015 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You watch the bond contracts evolve to take that into account. And negate it.
If you don't like the conditions to a bond then don't sign up to them. Pretty simple really.
“I rest my case.”
Doesnt mean the case is closed.
#24 Enrique, 11 against (including the USA) and 41 abstentions. 62 nations that are not on board. These nations are the likely lenders to the 124 likely deadbeat borrowers.
Mar 14th, 2015 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You do realize that when a business does file for either re-organization bankruptcy of liquidation, they relinquish control of the organization to a trustee. Will the UN take the reins of a sovereign nation that files for bankruptcy protection under this unlikely UN action? Will the trustees be a committee seated by UN members.....like....Argentina, Turkey, Zimbabwe?
The problem with piece of shit nations like Argentina who loath the so called vulture funds is they are always trying to borrow money in bonds from the system that they loath. BTW Enrique, I never saw a response to my question of the difference in the so called “vulture funds” and they way Nasty Nestor and the Botox Bitch of Buenos Aires made their millions by evicting real estate owners in foreclosure on behalf of banks, buying the land at pennies and selling them at inflated rates. What is the difference? Legally AND ethically?
#28 chronic (again)
Mar 15th, 2015 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well, they may be entitled, but they did not even tried, my friend.
Next: “The 92% that caved in to the intimidation...” Cannot be serious.
Do you know the story at all? Argentina was in default since 2002, and Néstor Kirchner negotiated a realistic agreement by which the creditors could get, at least, some of their money back. The only guy that put a stop to this is none other than your hero Griesa, who has blocked regular payments to restructured bondholders since last summer.
There was not “caving in” but a realistic solution agreed on both sides in 2005 and then 2010. You know that lending money to governments such as that of Carlos Menem is great business--don't tell me lenders want to help anybody by themselves. That is what debt restructurings are all about: recognizing both parties' responsibility.
#26 Pugol-H
“The Argentinian government has completely miss-handled this matter...”
Argentine has repeatedly said it would negotiate as it did with the majority of the creditors, that is with a similar haircut. That's not what Paul Singer and company set out to do in the first place. So you tell me in which manner Argentina could have negotiated and the vultures agreed. By the way, I do appreciate your more balanced view about the issue than that of the peanut gallery.
#27 everlasting yankeeboy
”I think 64,000 (pensioners) lost their life savings.”
I am sorry for the pensioners, but Kirchner sought a realistic solution to the debt problem he had not created.
On the other hand, those pensioners (or most probably their fund managers) ignored a basic rule of investing: never put your eggs in one single basket. (and balance risks) Diversify, diversify, diversify. Probably greed got the best of those managers.
31. You know Enrique you are nothing more than an apologist, if it was your money invested with these KThugs Thieves Scofflaws Deadbeats I think you'd be singing a different tune.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0The more you post the more I think you are a disgusting piece of trash.
@ 25 Enrique Massot
Mar 15th, 2015 - 04:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0has not answered the questions in # 18, yet writes the following nonsense: “attempts to portray as “extortion” Argentina's successful debt restructuring process with creditors representing 92 per cent of the country's foreign debt. During such process, the parties agreed ...”
No, the parties did not **agree** to anything. There were no negotiations of any kind.
Argentina presented the bond owners with an ultimatum: they could accept 29 percent on average or get nothing.
That is the exact meaning of the word “extortion”:
As said by Hans Hume, experienced with national debt and Argentina’s default: ”I co-chaired the Global Committee of Argentina Bondholders leading up to the country’s 2005 exchange of its bonds for better terms. I have been involved in more than 20 country debt restructurings and I had never before or since encountered representatives of a country who were more duplicitous, arrogant or who demonized the representatives on the other side of the table more. Argentina presented a unilateral offer that only 76% of the creditors accepted (only 63% of international investors accepted), despite our attempts to suggest a modification of their offer that would have been less expensive for the country in the long run and would have garnered over 90% of the bondholders to accept the offer.”
The app 124,000 hold-outs owning app 10.1 billion US$ did not accept. Argentina has been sued in courts in eg Germany, Italy, Japan.
Some German holdouts
Aslan GmbH € 94.400
Stefan Bauer € 267,000
Hank van Blokland € 30,200
Ricarda Böhme € 47,000
Argentine holdouts: Norma Haydee Gines, Susana Aquerreta, Cesar Ruben Vazquez, Carmen Irma Lavorato, Lila Ine s Burgueno, Maria Evangelina Carballo, Mirta Susana Dieguez, Teresa Munoz De Corral, Marta Azucena Vazquez, Norma Elsa Lavorato, Leandro Daniel Pomilio, Maria Elena Corral, Pablo Alberto Varela, who filed lawsuits in US Federal Court, New York, South.
Argentina is the True Holdout.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 05:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0They hold out from repaying their debts. How many Defaults in a century? Seven, I think, or is it more?
“The Dead can't pay” said Nestor K.
Typical over-dramification. Argentina has land and natural resources, it can pay its way. Look at Vnzla, they have mortgaged their oil-reserves to China fo the next 25 years.
If Argentina mortgaged its corruption to China for 2.5 years, they could probably pay off the National Debt!
haha!
...
...
yep, funny, but think about all the corruption and missing millions/billions, deliberate wastage of funds... over so many years....
hmm...
Privatise the corruption and make them pay tax? Oh hang on, that's circular, wouldn't some one just corrupt that system?
There-in lies Argentina's problem.
Just behave like normal people, and the problem is resolved.
@28 yankeeboy
Mar 15th, 2015 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“There is no moral high ground to someone who reneged on a debt”
I disagree, if we were only talking about the original bond holders your arguments would have some weight, but even then any investor must know that the value of any investment/stocks/bonds can go down as well as up. That is the nature of the beast, ask anyone who bought Enron.
Countries can crash as well as companies, people who bought Argy bonds, even when issued in NY, knew they were taking a risk, however the higher returns offered attracted them, greed took over but the gamble (and that is the key word here) did not pay off.
You want sympathy, put your money in a nice safe (Gov underwritten) bank with a low rate of interest, if that goes pop you’ll have my sympathy.
In this case however we are talking about a few already very rich people who get even richer by buying the junk bonds of trashed, usually third world countries, then when they get back on their knees again screw them for whatever they can get.
Please explain to me the difference between the Tinpot Dictator/President who piles up personal wealth by milking the country to death, and Singer who swoops in and milks what’s left just as they start to recover.
Because I’m dammed if I can see it.
Sanctimonious platitudes like “They owe it and they should pay” have little meaning to the poor bastards at the bottom of that particular shit heap, who end up starving because of things they had little or no control over.
Ask the 40% or so of Venezuelans who did not vote for Maduro how that shit works.
Know doubt soon you will be able to ask the Argys who did not vote for CFK the same question, you’ll enjoy that I’m sure.
@32 Enrique Massot
There could have been more negotiation and less Diktat, and CFK could keep her mouth shut when legal arguments are being presented, judgments being made, instead of telling the judge what he can and cannot do, and what orders she will and will not obey. Just for a start.
rotting roadkill:
Mar 15th, 2015 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pay your debts.
#34 he has yet to answer many questions that I've posed to him. He selectively choices which ones to answer that will best serve his points to be made.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He sits and supports the ways of Kirchner believing she is the best person to run the country (in the ground) all from the comforts of Canada. HE does not have to live under the restrictions, shortages and decay that is happening in Argentina, so what does he care. He's not worth the effort of responding to his posts. At least to stupid assed La Campora trolls live in Argentina, brained washed like nazi you, unlike Enrique who choose a better life.....in faraway Canada.....North Amoia on Pagina boi's word.......lol
36 my problem is the utter arrogance that emanates from this pack of dead beats. If there was some semblance of modesty (not being a victim) and truth I would feel very different. I think Argentina is use to being a big bully in a very small sand box able to push their way around, but on a world stage they just continuously look like a pack of fools. I hope Greisa throws everything at them and then some. Citi will choose Greisa's ruling over their laws everyday...
Mar 15th, 2015 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pay your debts roadkill
36. Who currently owns the IOU/Debt is irrelevant. The terms have not changed since they were issued. You make it sound like a crime to be rich and to be able to fight the KThugs deadbeat scofflaws. Lucky they are rich and can match the Kthugs in court. Its a pity the 100K other bondholders couldn't.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think SInger et al are asking for sympathy, they are asking that their property rights be honored AND the US Courts agree with them.
Argentina could have and should have negotiated with all bondholders and moved passed this a decade ago. They didn't and I have ZERO SYMPATHY for the citizens who now have to suffer for the Kidiots intransigence. Zero Sympathy.
Maybe if they starve they'll learn.
Maybe not its up to them.
@39 dsullivanboston
Mar 15th, 2015 - 04:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Agreed, and that is what has by and large worked against them, CFK & Co clearly don’t realise that how they settle arguments is Argentina does not work outside Argentina.
Argentine foreign policy is often dictated by what they think looks good to the faith full back home, rather than by what would actually work for them on the world stage. Which almost always works to the countries overall detriment.
All that having been said, it is still no moral justification for what the likes of Singer actually do.
@40 yankeeboy
It is not a crime to be rich, it must be a crime to use that wealth and therefore power to extract more from the least able to pay.
But “they” are not fighting Kthugs, in court or anywhere else, are they?
K and her thugs are the ones who are going to be least affected by all this.
K is not even spending her own money to fight this in court.
Either way it is the Argentine people who pay the bill.
I repeat, what is the difference between K and Singer, answer Singer is a lot smarter and richer and therefore able to cause more mischief for the less well off.
As someone who, when one of your (it has to be said, often right) predictions comes true, says “love it, love it, love it” or “couldn’t be happier”, knowing that what has happened has just added to the woes of a large number of (often quite innocent) people, it does not surprise me you completely fail to see the moral aspect to this issue.
The difference our opinions is that the rgs keep allowing bad governments to make them poorer and dumber every year for the last 75yrs you don't see this as the fault of the people and I do.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 06:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If the people keep allowing bad govts to represent them they deserve to starve. Its the only way they'll learn.
Or they won't
Its totally up to them.
I agree that the people are certainly not innocent with respect to how they got to this, given some of the governments they have elected.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But allowing the likes of Singer to starve people (anybody) just to get filthy richer, is still a morally bankrupt argument, completely devoid of any common humanity.
rotting roadkillians:
Mar 15th, 2015 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pay up, deadbeats.
Its not NML's fault its the Kthugs. They caused the mess. The people should rise up and claim a better govt.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My guess is they won't.
In a decade they'll be poorer and dumber wondering how to get a maids job in Paraguay.
“Fault”, NML are not in this for the greater good of humanity, or to uphold righteous justice and the rule of law.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They are in it to make whatever profit they can for themselves, irrespective of what that may cost anybody else.
Otherwise, you are probably right, without a change of attitude/realisation on the part of the people, things will only continue to get worse for Argentina.
The difference is I take no pleasure in that, to me it seem rather a sad story.
@ 36 Pugol-H who writes: “In this case however we are talking about a few already very rich people who get even richer by buying the junk bonds of trashed, usually third world countries”
Mar 15th, 2015 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are undoubtedly thinking of:
Giannandrea Leonardi, whose family inherited 115,000 euros worth of bonds that his father bought in 1998.
Egidio Rolich, 59, who bought about 40,000 euros of Argentine bonds in 1998 with the proceeds from the sale of an apartment and his wife’s severance pay.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-04-25/tired-italians-may-accept-anything-to-unload-argentina-s-defaulted-bonds.html
Only the very rich, eg a hedge fund, can sustain a legal fight over 10 years against a country. Some of many thousands of detail holdouts have filed suits against Argentina and won in court, but they are unable to keep it up over all these years.
@ 47 St.John
Mar 15th, 2015 - 07:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Derrr, how about reading the rest of the Post@36
“if we were only talking about the original bond holders your arguments would have some weight, but even then any investor must know that the value of any investment/stocks/bonds can go down as well as up. That is the nature of the beast, ask anyone who bought Enron.
Countries can crash as well as companies, people who bought Argy bonds, even when issued in NY, knew they were taking a risk, however the higher returns offered attracted them, greed took over but the gamble (and that is the key word here) did not pay off.
You want sympathy, put your money in a nice safe (Gov underwritten) bank with a low rate of interest, if that goes pop you’ll have my sympathy.”
Selective memory or what!!!!!
Profit is not dirty word.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stealing is wrong.
These are simple concepts.
Its time Argentina learned them.
A bond is a contract containing an obligation to pay a certain amount on a certain date, unlike a share, where you take the risk of loosing everything or perhaps gain a lot. A bond of 100 will be repaid with 100 and never more.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Countries cannot crash like companies, or are you suggesting that Argentina doesn't have oil, minerals, land, etc. enough to cover it's debt?
rotting roadkill's word is its bond.
Mar 15th, 2015 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Both are other questionable value.
36 I think there is a big difference, Singer is who he is and doesn't try to pretend to be anyone else, a very shrewd shark. CFK is a charlatan, a crook that steals from her own people. You might think that it's the same for people on the bottom, they get screwed either way, but they are very different animals. Singer is a reaction to the chaos that is Argentinas finances. He has the stamina, money, etc to fight this fight as most don't.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Just one question, you seem reasonable, are you from Arg?
You seem to have overlooked
Mar 16th, 2015 - 12:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Only the very rich, eg a hedge fund, can sustain a legal fight over 10 years against a country. Some of many thousands of detail holdouts have filed suits against Argentina and won in court, but they are unable to keep it up over all these years.”
The very rich are owed US$ 1.6 billion, the Italian holdouts are owed US$ 6 billion, other holdouts a further US$ 4 billion, but the little guys cannot fight a country in court over 10 years, only the rich ones can.
D did you see Walsh at breakfast this morning? He was hilarious.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 02:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0I didn't see it. We were going to go the parade, but with the weather no so good we skipped... Did you guys get more snow?
Mar 16th, 2015 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 049. I guess what you are having a hard time understanding is a bond is a contract. The terms can only be changed if both parties agree. These bonds were fully transferable and marketable.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina did not honor their contract.
It is as simple as that.
I've said for a very long time that they will lose every court case and they have.
They will be found in contempt
They will be punished
No amount of squealing and name calling will keep them from being punished
as it should be
@49 yankeeboy
Mar 16th, 2015 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Profit at what price, at the cost of the wellbeing of ordinary people is very wrong, and morally indefensible.
Stealing is wrong, but that is not what happened here, Argentina reneged on its obligations a very different thing.
@50 St.John
In this case, and others I can think of, the bond seems to be very like a share. The difference being at least the holders were offered some money back, unlike Enron and far too many other shares to mention.
Don’t forget the interest paid on the bond, the reason people buy them, the higher the rate the greater the risk. The people who bought these bond knew they were risky but they offered high returns, they gambled on the market (bond market) and lost.
If you don’t want to risk your money then buy German Gov bond, which are as safe as anything can be, but are at negative interest, you pay them to keep your money. However it is a lot safer than Greek bonds at 7-8% interest.
You pay your money and you take your choice.
Buy Argy gov bonds and the country crashed (as they do, just like companies) and defaulted and now they won’t pay and this is a shock, a surprise, mate what friggin planet do you live on.
@52 dsullivanboston
Singer is feeding off the chaos that is Argentina’s finances, making a bad situation worse and fattening himself in the process, it is called a parasite.
You can argue with more than some justification that Argentina has greatly contributed to the situation, but Argentina is not the only country he has done this to and that still doesn’t make what he does right.
He exploits bad situations purely for his own profit, at the expense of the poor bastards at the bottom of whatever shit heap he is kicking over.
Actually I’m British/English, I just think that Singer and his ilk are of no more use to the planet than CFK, both just do damage.
@53 St.John
“The very rich are owed US$ 1.6 billion”
Is this face value, or is this with interest added on?
Very rich but they still need another US$ 1.6 bi
@53 St.John
Mar 16th, 2015 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The very rich are owed US$ 1.6 billion”
Is this face value, or is this with interest added on?
Very rich but they still need another US$ 1.6 billion, oh yeah I can see how things must be really tough for them, they must be really suffering, my heart bleeds, please no more you’ll have me in tears.
You bleedin Toffs, don’t know you’re born, come the revolution comrades it’s up against the wall with you for your Romanov good bye.
Last but not least, exactly how much did they buy these bond for, from other people, the people who actually lost money?
57. Your view of what is moral is very tenuous. I dont' share it. Arg stole money from people. There's no way to parse it.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They are thieves, deadbeats and scofflaws.
The only people making the citizens of Argentina miserable are the Kthugs.
They should be jailed or otherwise dispatched.
I suggest you rethink your views on how the world should work because those views are what has gotten every Marxist based country into trouble and brought millions to starvation and death.
@59 yankeeboy
Mar 16th, 2015 - 05:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tenuous eh, well it seem perfectly sound to me.
Of course that is just my perspective, but at least I have a moral perspective.
I do not defend Argentina or K and her thugs in any way shape or form, I simply regard Singer and his ilk as being probably worse for the human race than they are.
This should not be taken as any kind of a vote for K and her thugs.
You try a portray Singer & Co as having God on their side, paragons of law abiding virtue on a noble quest (with Brave Sir Robin no doubt) to right wrongs.
Bollox, they parasites on humanity and nothing more.
Actually my politics are far closer to Briton’s than Marxs or Trotsky, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognise “the unacceptable face of capitalism” when I see it.
“Brought millions to starvation and death.” - Oh, Singer bought their debt as well then did he?
Without Marxist Governments collapsing Singer & Co would have nothing to feed on.
You know what they say about opinions...everyone has one.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I were you I wouldn't use your version of what is moral as a basis for your arguments.
Try facts to win a debate not emotions.
rotting roadkill is a serial deadbeat. 8 times they have defaulted to their creditor on their sovereign debt.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@61 yankeeboy
Mar 16th, 2015 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The facts are Singer & Co have a solid legal case, no argument there, and are almost certainly going to win, he usually does.
And maybe the Argentinian people do “deserve it”.
That still doesn’t make what he does right and laws can be changed to include a humanitarian clause.
Human misery Vs Super rich getting super richer.
Factor that equation into the thinking and it all becomes clear.
This is not a debate about the rights and wrongs of the facts of law or the terms of the contract, it is about the morality of what is being allowed to happen.
But I guess you just can’t see that.
No offence intended, just my opinion.
63. WTF is a “humanitarian clause”? Are you fcking insane? Is that going to be included in every contract written in the world?
Mar 16th, 2015 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Geez you've lost the plot...
I guess you are some sort of screaming no brained liberal.
What a nut.
The market tends to correct abberant behavior.
Mar 16th, 2015 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the case of rotting roadkill, Singer is the instrumentality of that market correction and Singer's dispensing of punishment is wholly consistent with those dynamics. This punishment - even if it fail to dissuade rotting roadkill's current/future behavior - serves as an example to other similar situated economies to demonstrate the results of imprudent action.
The market rewards prudent behavior. The strides that Germany has made reflect these priniples in operation and their positive outcomes.
Greece is reaping the market's judgement on their failure to effectively implement their own tax policy and the falisification of their economic data to the EU and lenders.
You reap what you sow. Sow good things.
65 chronic
Mar 17th, 2015 - 04:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0What's gonna happen, mi estimado, is international anti-vulture legislation, and Paul's going to find other ways to make easy bucks. He succeeded mostly because previous victims paid quietly. Argentina's resistance to comply will be a service to future potential victims.
And Greece is in deep trouble after faithfully following the recipes of the Troika for more than four years. Why do you think Greeks voted left? Don't even get me started on Greece my friend.
Clueless. Truly blissfully ignorant. Lol.
Mar 17th, 2015 - 05:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ yankeeboy
Mar 17th, 2015 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am very far from any kind of Liberal, shit I voted for Thatcher and proud of it.
Such clauses are already standard in the EU, try enforcing a contract which generates huge profit for one but untold misery for the many. If it wasn’t thrown out at a national level, it would be at the EU level.
It’s called ethical business, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Explaining ethics and morality to you is like talking about rainbows to someone who only has black and white vision.
You just don’t get it.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a screaming liberal or raving Marxist or even Argentinian.
@ 66 Enrique Massot
They voted left to keep avoiding paying income tax, or have to work 40+ hours a week for 48 weeks a year until they are 65.
The simple truth is no one will release Greece from its obligations because they don’t believe they have “structurally reformed”.
Without which this will all happen again sooner rather than later.
Greece had lived beyond its means for decades, voting out any government which tried to change things, at some point the books have to be balanced.
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Mar 17th, 2015 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is one of the most dangerous and thoughtless statements I have ever seen on this board.
You really need to rethink what you believe is to be moral.
Morality is a subjective valuation.
Mar 18th, 2015 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Laws are universal truths.
Nature is ruled by laws. The fable of the grasshopper and the ant illustrates a universal natural law. With very exceptions the cautious industrious accumulators are go to prosper and the reckless lazy dissipators are going to languish. No arbitrary redistribution has ever rendered this law void.
Which insect represents rotting roadkill and greece?
“Not everyone who disagrees with you is a screaming liberal or raving Marxist or even Argentinian.”
Mar 18th, 2015 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0AMEN
Indeed!
Mar 18th, 2015 - 10:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0@69 yankeeboy
Mar 18th, 2015 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Actually I meant to say, the needs of the many outweigh the wants of a few.
But like I said, explaining colour to a blind man.
@70 chronic
Except we are not talking about ants or grasshoppers, we are talking about people.
And what laws “we the people” decide to make for our society to be run by.
Ants simply run to a program dictated by evolution, we get to decide how we run our society.
The issue here is how we exercise that choice, ethically and morally, or not.
73. You have a pretty fcked up world view. I seriously don't think you've thought through some of the b/s you post.
Mar 18th, 2015 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am assuming you are an adult
and can think
maybe
I'm wrong.
@74 yankeeboy
Mar 18th, 2015 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I’m underwhelmed.
You’re just overflowing with the milk of human kindness.
Wrong dummyhead. lol. Natural law trumps any morality that man tries to enforce. Nature always wins.
Mar 18th, 2015 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ethics? Morality? What could a rotting roadkillian possibly know of these things? They are antithetical to everything that is rotting roadkill.
You grasshoppers are looking at a trying future.
I would say nice try but it - like your “logic” is so weak so as to be nonexistant.
Next.
I’ll just hop it then!
Mar 18th, 2015 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#68 Pugol-H:
Mar 18th, 2015 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Such clauses are already standard in the EU, try enforcing a contract which generates huge profit for one but untold misery for the many.” Yes, and I believe there is anti-vulture legislation in the U.K. and a few other countries as well.
It was refreshing to read that and your following “hopping” posts. We may disagree on many things, but I believe we share a moral view and a desire to protect the many from the abuse of a few powerful.
Funny how these already well-accepted ideals exasperate hateful people as yankeeboy and chronic. Their motivation? It would be interesting to know indeed.
Lol. What the peanut gallery is blissfully unaware of is that Singer et al have already made another small fortune at the old Soros game of push/pull. Catching the commodity revaluation by mere happenstance amplified the power of some their positions by 400% or more. Singer has already won and rotting roadkill is too dumb to even suspect it. The whole bond thing is now just for fun. rotting roadkill is just the perfect venue to play this high stakes game. The whole thing that makes this even possible is the failure of the rule of law in rotting roadkill. And even this would be of limited value were it not for the total absurdities of the rotting roadkillians and their political choices. Thanks, Cretina!
Mar 18th, 2015 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 78 Enrique Massot
Mar 19th, 2015 - 03:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least we agree on somethings.
@ 79 chronic
So the very rich are getting very richer, at the expense of the people at the very bottom of the heap.
So much so that now they are just doing this for fun.
While the rich CFK watches on totally immune from even any fallout, never mind blast.
And this you think is a good state of affairs.
I rest my case.
80 You know you seem like a very reasonable person with all the information but I just can't share your vitriol for Singer. Maybe if it was Equador, Nicaragua, or someplace else I would feel differently, but Argentina is a chronic defaulter. If you aren't aware, google BG, another Argentine debacle. The country has a very well defined history of endless lawsuits, appeals, losses, and in the end, whining sovereignty and shafting the entire process. Singer is no saint, but I am glad he is in the picture to get his pound of flesh and find myself rooting for him every time Nepolian (the midget) chimes in.. Maybe you are a better person than me, maybe I have read more than you, but just my two cents...
Mar 19th, 2015 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 081
Mar 20th, 2015 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0...and how did that work out for Shylock....
Take then thy bond, take thou thy pound of flesh;
But, in the cutting it, if thou dost shed
One drop of Christian blood, thy lands and goods
Are, by the laws of Venice, confiscate
Unto the state of Venice.
In the end he got nothing....not even his principal...yet he was offered twice his principal...
There are parallels methinks...
@81 dsullivanboston
Mar 20th, 2015 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Vitriol is perhaps too strong a word, I try and view everyone as of equal value (in moral not monetary terms), what I strongly dislike is the human cost of how he makes his money.
And in no way do I defend Argentina or it behaviour, other than to distinguish between the people and their political/ruling class (for want of a better term).
Cue Yankeedoodle – RAVING MARXIST DRIVEL, COMMIE BASTARD PROPAGANDA, YOU LIBERAL RESPUTNIC LOONEY, STARVE EM ALL, BLOCKADE EM, NUKE EM, DIE, DIE.) I’m sure he has been training with conqueror.
I am quite well aware of Argentina’s history of defaults, law suites, ICJ & IMF judgments ect, ect, the list is as endless as it is indefensible.
Which is what is so absolutely astounding about the people who still bought their bonds. You have to be pretty dumb to buy Argy contracts even in NY and not realising how big a risk you are taking. Simply beyond belief.
No doubt Singer will get his pound of flesh“ that” he does seem very good at, it’s simply “that” does not seem like much of an achievement to me, quite the reverse in fact, I also think it is going to be cut from nearest the heart of the wrong people.
Cue Yankeedoodle – THEIR ALL THE SAME, ALL TO BLAME, SPARE NONE OF EM THE PAIN OR THE SUFFERING ARHAHAHAHAHAHA, THE LASH, THE LASH, LEARN OR DIE, DIE, DIE, EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE.
And remember, not one drop of blood Mr Singer.
@83 Pugol-H
Mar 21st, 2015 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well said. I especially relish the Dalek reference [ it explains a lot :) ].
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!