An Indonesian firing squad executed eight convicted drug-traffickers from several countries on Tuesday, prompting Australia to recall its envoy to Jakarta and bringing an angry reaction from Brazil. Read full article
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Perhaps a little less tolerance to the drug smuggling trade and a clear message to smugglers is just what is needed.Apr 29th, 2015 - 10:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0
......yes - because the American led war on drugs over the last 40 years has been a great success. Shooting these guys dead will obviously put an end to the trade entirely.Apr 29th, 2015 - 10:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Nobody is going to miss these scumbags..Apr 29th, 2015 - 11:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0
There are plenty of people who will miss them which is one of the reasons there's been such an uproar.Apr 29th, 2015 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
However the rest of the world is well aware that Americans believe killing people resolves lots of stuff - but even your government doesn't regard smuggling as a capital crime. I assume you'd like them to add it to your list?
Men killed, women not killed ... equality?Apr 29th, 2015 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I don't agree with the death penalty because it doesn't allow judicial mistakes to be rectified.Apr 29th, 2015 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Australia's relationship with Indonesia will not suffer a great deal in the long run. However the government of Indonesia will indeed suffer. Joko is a weak president and he panders to a largely uneducated and emotive domestic audience.
A just punishment that will hopefully deter others, wonder how many deaths their disgusting trade cost the users? And did they care as we are supposed to care about them now?Apr 29th, 2015 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I can't feel sorry for greedy, selfish killers by proxy
On what basis is Indonesia a 'big neighbour' of Australia?Apr 29th, 2015 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Having said that, on what basis did Abbott and Rousseff appeal for clemency? Brazil apparently used 'humanitarian' grounds. Perhaps Abbott did as well. And Amnesty International said that the executions 'shows complete disregard for due process and human rights safeguards'. Is that right? Has Amnesty International suddenly become an expert on Indonesian law? I believe that Indonesia operates sharia law. So, the 'due process' of sharia law. Swift justice. What are these humanitarian grounds and human rights 'safeguards'. Even better, what are 'human rights'? There are NO human rights. At best, there are civil rights. And that depends on a 'civilised' society. Jump off an ocean liner, at sea, in the middle of the night. What about your 'human right' to life? And what 'humanitarian' thoughts did these traffickers have before they inflicted the horrors of narcotics abuse on their unknown victims? How many did their 'product' kill? How many might it yet kill? From what I've read, the majority of the criminals were Nigerians. No surprise there. They only have a limited amount of concern for human life. Their own. Perhaps immediate family. Beyond that everyone's on their own. And that is the level at which drug traffickers operate. Some couriers say they were forced. Then why not surrender as soon as they get to the destination country? Will their wives, husbands, sons, daughters actually be killed? Who knows? How many will die because of what they do? And if all the 'forced' couriers got together with neighbours and friends to resist? Not easy but, without that sort of action, where does it end? It ends with the state that Colombia used to be in. A country run by drug cartels. Anarchy!
7 tezzaApr 29th, 2015 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I assume that you will be posting the statistics highlighting a measurable drop in drug smuggling now these examples have been shot.
If you're that anti drug you must also rail against the alcohol and tobacco industries whose products kill far more. Come to think of it so does the car industry. Henry Ford should have been lynched.
TezzaApr 29th, 2015 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The death penalty didn't deter any of these people from smuggling drugs. So no it doesn't work. Indonesians still consumer drugs.
Indonesia has a population of 250 million. That's 10x our population and the world's fourth most populous nation in the world. Geographically it is as large as the combined area of the UK, France, Spain, Germany and Italy. An economic minnow though.
Indonesia's laws, and the penalty for breaking them, are no business of Australia, Brazil, or any other country. If Australian, or Brazilian nationals commit crimes in Indonesia, and pay with their lives, it should be cause for rejoicing; they will commit no more crimes in their home countries (as well as Indonesia).Apr 29th, 2015 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Anyone rejoicing over people being tied to a post and then shot probably needs help.Apr 29th, 2015 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The smugglers were only caught because of information given to them by the Australian police. I doubt such information will be forthcoming in future.
Notwithstanding my sympathy for the young men and their families, I'm heartily sick of this subject which has been dominating the local news for weeks now. Neither the Indonesian govt, nor my own, has distinguished themselves, let alone our neighbours judiciary. Nor the media for that matter.Apr 29th, 2015 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
The drugs were never meant to be sold in Indonesia, no Indonesian citizen was harmed, so why kill them? South East Asian prisons are filled with foreigners incarcerated for smuggling narcotics and they have been executing westerners and others for decades now. It's not exactly a secret that this can happen. Obviously it is not an effective deterrent.
As the above poster notes, the only reason Sukumaran and Chan were in this situation was because the AFP informed Indonesian authorities. They could've simply arrested them here, they would've done their time and been released by now and all this self-righteous indignation and diplomatic ill-feeling could've been avoided. And what the hell did Abbott and Bishop think the Indonesian govt were going to do? Reverse a decision of their own judiciary??!!
$14 billion worth of trade 'big' enough for you?
Indonesia's laws, like all countries', are applied selectively. There are many Indonesian citizen's, notably in their armed forces, whose crimes far exceed anything our two citizens did, who have never been, and never will be tried for crimes not limited to but including torture, rape and murder.
They knew the penalty and took the risk.Apr 29th, 2015 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
I have no trouble with the death penalty. I think it should be carried out quicker though. There's no reason these scumbags should sit around on the taxpayer's dime waiting for their injection or bullet.
#2 perhaps a pat on the back and a promise to be good the next go around. Would that be better? If you want to smuggle drugs in Asia and gamble the big payoff, you are stupid if you do not realize that you are hedging your life for the payoff. If they have children who will miss them, they apparently did not care when they decided on that profession. Are sexslave traders acceptable to you as well? This is punishment...plain and simple.....you do this, you die.Apr 29th, 2015 - 06:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Obviously this hits home.......what do you smuggle? Cocaine?, heroine? crack? cook up some ruffies?
100% solves the problem of recidivism doesn't it!Apr 29th, 2015 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Too bad we don't have the death penalty here.
@10. So Indonesia has 10 times as many insect drones. So what?Apr 29th, 2015 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@12. I do agree. Garroting can be made to last so much longer.
@13. Do you think you can understand this? Drug traffickers are considerably worse than murderers. It doesn't matter where the potential victims are. Indonesia seems to have taken the not unreasonable view that traffickers need to be dead. In fact I would be inclined to recommend that EVERY country should execute traffickers. Never mind that stupid evidence, arrest, lawyers, more evidence, trial, more evidence, appeal crap. Just shoot 'em. Been there. No problem shooting them. Especially the smart arses. Would have loved to see their eyes just before I put a bullet through their skulls.
8@ Your comment has been extra crystal clear.....Apr 29th, 2015 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Those drug smugglers knew the penalty for drug dealing which is a terrible crime because it kill lot of people, so the associated and equivalent penalty is death....
They played with fire and got burned.....that simple....And their families must blame thier own relatives for their current deep pain....
Unfortunatelly, progresist (that are regressionist instead) have criminalized the death penalty around the world, but its the only equivalent penalty for killers, rapist and drug dealers.....Hope in my country we could reverse the death penalty abolition so we can clean the prisions full of those criminals that we have to food and care for their remainig life on our pocket money (taxes)....with the risk of an amnesty which can led them out for new crimes of same gravity.....
Well done, Indonesian authorities, you didn't bend under unacceptable foreign pressure....
I understand the woman was not shot because the person (another woman) who duped her into doing this gave herself up to the police in the Philippines because her peer group who knew she was to blame threatened her life.Apr 29th, 2015 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
This has yet to be proven however.
Execution is very final and if you know that this is penalty if you get caught and go ahead and do it anyway, then I think it has a place. I can't see too many people thinking of doing again after this.Apr 29th, 2015 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I personally think that people who kill Rhino's and Elephants for the Chinese ivory trade should be shot dead too, I would be quite happy with that.
If the risk outweighs the punishment, you have anarchy. If the punishment outweighs the risk, you have law.
I'm quite sure that if this matter had not involved a Brazilian or Australian, then those countries would not have recalled their ambassadors in disgust, I am quite sure of that.
I agree with those who say - they knew the risks - they did it - they pay the price. Tough on their familes but they knew the law - idiots.Apr 29th, 2015 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
If a few more nations did the same there would be alot less drugs about.
What gets me is why countries don't do better job of conveying to the public the penalties for crime.Apr 29th, 2015 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Put up a big billboard near the shanty towns with a pic of the criminal. With the words:
Look this P.O.S is going to get ass raped for 10 years for robbing a store.
Vale la peña ?
the indonesia is asking clemency to murder arrested citizens while denying clemency for drug trafficking ... oh irony ...Apr 29th, 2015 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Drug smugglers don't create the market that makes it so lucrative. It is a combination of drug addiction and our societies laws that make it so expensive that people are willing to take the risk of smuggling it in.Apr 30th, 2015 - 03:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Addiction is the problem, not the substance itself. Every single person who ever consumed an illegal narcotic was already addicted to something- even if it was just a process - LONG before they ever stuck a needle in their veins or sucked on a glass tube, and the reason why this obsessive and compulsive behaviour ( the two components that make up addiction ) is not noticed and addressed is because the people who SHOULD notice are themselves engaged in addictive behaviour. I have known thousands of recovering addicts and that is the story behind each and every one.
Drug smugglers don't stick needles in people's veins, drug addicts do that themselves, and if it wasn't drugs it would, and often is, something else, which is why so many people who stop drinking or consuming drugs simply take up an another addicti0n to fill the void.
Everyone who failed to notice, and was in a position to do something about it, when a young person was starting that slippery slope that ends in jails, institutions and death, was in some way responsible ( however small ) for the circumstances these two men found themselves in. And I include myself. It is a huge problem in my society and we are failing, collectively, to deal with it.
The irony is that states that impose the death penalty for murder have a higher murder rate than those that don't - and have done consistently since they started compiling the data.Apr 30th, 2015 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
@ 24 HeisenbergcontextApr 30th, 2015 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I agree totally with your post.
Yes, everyone around a drug addict must ask themselves what THEY could have done to help the person BUT, executing drug addicts also has it's place.
These people gave up their right to help avoiding death for themselves by the very nature of their crimes, providing death for others.
A good read:Apr 30th, 2015 - 02:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
20,000 deaths a year in Mexico because of the war on drugs - not because users are overdosing on them. The net result of the war is that more people are dying in the name of saving lives than any lives saved through the efforts of the war. In terms of drug users lives saved by the war on drugs the number is roughly zero. In fact leaving the supply in the hands of warlords rather than the pharmaceutical industry adds to the death toll.
Drugs like prostitution are crimes based on moral values and who is anyone else to judge?
@26 ChrisApr 30th, 2015 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Thanks for the support. I'm confused by your second sentence though - did you mean addicts or smugglers? You know, even hard bitten street cops would allow a junkie to have a shot before arresting them, just because they knew how horrible hanging out in a lock-up can be. What with cops having to wear body cams now I guess that hard won compassion is a thing of the past now...
...and what this article doesn't say is that these two were part of the 'Bali nine'. The two who were executed were killed only because they were perceived to be the ringleaders but all of these people were young -really young - and all suffered from a problem common to young people: the inability to see around corners.They were just small potato's. Not a criminal mastermind amongst them. One stupid decision too many and either life in prison or a firing squad. What a fucking waste.
Oh, and if anyone can accurately predict what an Indonesian court is going to do - be it drug smuggling, terrorism, murder or corruption...well good luck with that.
Of course, the drugs addict will use anythingh he can have to satisfice his addiction and this is a result of a lot of reasons, bad teaching from home about the real human values, bad buddies, and even genetic alterations and the prevention must intervine on that....with all the tools that society can have .Apr 30th, 2015 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
But, the drug dealers, from minimun to maximun size, do their business knowing that people with addiction propensity or even people induced by dupe will mean a continuos high income associated to a risk, but they don´t have any remorse about the damage they will make to all thier clients.....even knowing that a lot of them will die for this business and the remaining will see their lives totally destroyed, affecting their own families, friends & comunity in the process.....So, where the valius are in those drugs dealers....?? where they put the human rights of others...???
After said so, have those criminals any human right that can avoid the death penalty for their crimes....?? Thought NO.... They must pay with their lives for theiir acts.....Always the punishment must be equal or greater than the fault to don´t encourage the likely offenders to traspass the border....Thera is no reason to support any drug dealer.....It doesn´t matter if they eare young, poor, tall or short, black or White, religious or atheist........they did wrong and must pay for it....
What are real human values?Apr 30th, 2015 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
I assume you mean your values and are confusing them as synonymous.
@29 Sergio VegaApr 30th, 2015 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Sergio - a question for you: how much of what you write is based on personal experience?
Some things you may not have considered: most drug dealers are themselves addicts who inevitably become their own best customers. The Indonesian courts actually do recognise this, and if they can be convinced that an addict convicted of dealing is in fact an addict a reduced sentence can be given.
Every western govt that I can think of provides methadone as a substitute for opiate addiction. this despite the fact that methadone is far more toxic than pure heroine ( which has no side effects ). It gets into your bone marrow, is far harder to withdraw from ( three months as opposed to four days ) and turns people into zombies that never shut up. I can spot a 'done clone' from fifty meters away. And it still kills people. In state of Victoria, when the health authorities decided to allow pharmacies rather than centrally located clinics to dispense the drug fourteen people died from methadone overdoses. Nobody went to jail for it.
Our govts make a fortune from taxes on alcohol, from gambling [ casino's and bookmakers are required to encourage their consumers to 'gamble responsibly' ( riiight ) all of which inspire the essential ingredient of addiction - instant gratification ], all of which does as least as much damage as illicit drug addiction.
...they did wrong and must pay for it... I agree with you. Drug dealers exploit people suffering from the disease of addiction for monetary gain and should be punished for it. But so do our governments and our citizens refuse to oppose this lest they be required to give up their own, more socially acceptable, addictions.
On this subject, at least, I live in a nation of hypocrits.
@ 28 HeisenbergcontextApr 30th, 2015 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
SORRY, you are correct, executing drug SMUGGLERS, DOH! :O(
Lol, no worries.May 01st, 2015 - 02:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
Hypocrisy....May 01st, 2015 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
Governments created demand for drugs, including Britain supplying opium to China to create addiction in return for goods..
US Government sponsored its drug lord allies with transport, arms, and political protection in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Soviets...
...and what about the support to the Mexican Guadalajara Cartel....
There is no one better at creating demand than governments...
Even supporters of the death penalty will not be able to find the justice in the execution of Rodrigo Gularte who was not even aware that he was to be killed.May 06th, 2015 - 02:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0