MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Conservatives on course to a major victory, as SNP wipes out Labor in Scotland
The Conservatives are on course to be the largest party with David Cameron hopeful of gaining a majority in the UK general election. Labor faces being wiped out by the SNP in Scotland and is failing to make the gains it needs in England to stand a chance of forming a government. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesElection held.
May 08th, 2015 - 07:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Army didn't take to the streets and neither did gangs of disillusioned citizens.
No matter what the result is, that is a very successful election. Most countries would love to have elections such as this.
And come out with Cameron as the winner?
May 08th, 2015 - 08:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Are you sure most countries would love that?
:)
That would prove quite impossible as David Cameron is the UK Prime Minister and incapable of getting elected in another country.
May 08th, 2015 - 08:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sure you understand how democracy works Stevie?
You promise?
May 08th, 2015 - 09:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Wiped out by Labour. Disaster.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well Stevie, it seems that Cameron has won the majority and therefore the electorate of the UK disagree with you.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0It took Labour 13 years to destroy the economy, and the Conservatives 5 years to turn it around. Now they have a mandate to continue improving on this and making the UK economy even more stable, secure and prosperous.
I'm delighted with the result, and thankful that it looks like we won't have to suffer days of uncertainty.
I'm delighted too :)
May 08th, 2015 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am no supporter of the Tories however it is better to have a Govt. with a small majority than have to run around making a fragile coalition which could break at any time.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0It didn't really matter who I voted for, Doncaster is a safe (please note MP) Labour seat. I don't really like the Tories either but after seeing 2 Labour governments screwing the country good and proper I NEVER want to see a Labour win again!
May 08th, 2015 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Wonderful result! Must work hard over this Parliament to get Scotland back on board in the Union.
May 08th, 2015 - 10:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0No chance mate - 56 seats out of 59?
May 08th, 2015 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Saor Alba. Scottish National Party.
Were the Gods smiling upon me...;-)
May 08th, 2015 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Miliband history...Balls out...the Government I wanted representing the UK and a Tartan Army of MP's representing Scotland at Westminster....
...plus we are all looking forward to watching Paddy Ashdown eating his hat on television....wonder what's for dessert...humble pie...;-)
@10 gordo1
May 08th, 2015 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes there is a lot of work to do. I agree with Boris Johnson about giving each 'country' of the Union fiscal responsibility for raising their own taxes and spending it as they see fit.
That means that England should have its own Parliament too.
@11 EscoSes Doido
Well the SNP leader stated that this vote was not about Scottish Independence, it was about giving Scotland a louder voice in the UK Parliament. Are you calling her a liar?
The majority of Scottish people don't want independence (see referendum result). To go against this result is to ignore democracy and the people of Scotland.
Farage has gone. He couldn't get elected. His response? He is relieved and happy. (Can we hear PC2 weeping?)
May 08th, 2015 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think it is going to be a very interesting parliament. It is tough to manage a small majority government. The SNP are standing by their election promise that they are not seeking independence but that they want a stronger voice for Scotland. To be honest it is a bit of a myth that they have not had a voice in the UK parliament but it is a natural progression from voting against independence.
We should see three resignations today. And the cherry on the top is Gorgeous George lost his seat too.
The Falkland Islands will be quietly content, though in truth all UK political parties except the Greens support self-determination for the Falklands and the other OT's. Thanks democracy.
May 08th, 2015 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 013
May 08th, 2015 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0LMFAO!
Ho, ho, - 56 out of 59 seats, and you are still vomiting your Unionist stuff?
The SNP stands for an Independent Scotland. What part of that are you not understanding?
It looks to me that the “progressive” ( in the worst meaning of the word) gov'ts we've all been suffering the last 10yrs are coming to an end. There's been a wave of Conservative gov't winning around the world with the Prog gov't miserably failing and putting the lives of their people in peril.
May 08th, 2015 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0Let's hope the USA follows suit.
Pretty sure we will.
@16 You don't really understand do you? Independence will not happen without another referendum.
May 08th, 2015 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nicola Sturgeon made it quite clear before and after voting that people were not voting for an independent Scotland but for the Scottish people to have more control of Scottish affairs. They will get that. Good for them.
so the snp has 56 seats, uh??
May 08th, 2015 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0as i wisely said scotland will be independent sooner than later.
and without scottish petrol england or the leftovers of the uk will be less than nothing.
it is just a matter of time.
Salmond is where he wants to be...
May 08th, 2015 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0With a huge backing that he could only have dreamed of...
Facing a Government that he wanted to face....
He will not want to change that situation for the next five years...
There will be no Independence Issue....
...take my word for it....
...and watch for the EU...U-turn from the Conservatives....
there will be no EU referendum.....
This would be a material change that would prompt another ...IndyREF
Not going to happen....
13. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163
May 08th, 2015 - 11:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0a narrow margin 'no' was indeed returned with the aid of the status quo, media bias and tory promises yet to be fulfilled.
Scotland is right on the edge, all it needs is some snobbishness from the south east to tip it over into independence. I think they'll get it.
19. i predicted a 'no' result for scottish independence in the last referendum. i would now agree with you, if there is not some major attitude change in GB Scotland will soon have independence.
the tory* attitude doesn't really ever change so its a question of timing, and the snp are good at timing.
*interesting party name, the etymology originates from an Irish word for a type of thief or road bandit.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163
the thief party.
The Conservative Party (and MR Cameron) now have 326 seats. Only 7 seats still to declare. Labour only has 230. The LibDems have learned that people remember. The SNP will have to learn that it doesn't really have any power. Salmond will have to play by someone else's rules. Might be worth viewing Salmond vs Bercow.
May 08th, 2015 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@13. I don't see ANY worth in giving each 'country' of the Union fiscal responsibility for raising their own taxes and spending it as they see fit. It would be another race to the bottom. Do you pay tax based on where you live or where you work? If benefits are necessary, which country's rates would be appropriate. Overriding item. Does a 'federal' government demand a specific amount from each 'country' toward defence. Or do we accept that Northern Ireland will only pay about ~2.8% of the defence budget? And only get ~2.8% of the defence effort. Wales will only pay ~4.8%? Scotland will pay ~8.3%. And 84.1% of the UK defence effort will be devoted to England! Just imagine a pair of Typhoons taking off to meet a threat to Northern Ireland. Halfway across the Irish Sea, they turn back. Money's run out. And consider a naval threat to scotland. Required vessels are at Plymouth. How much of the naval budget would be spent on just getting there? Why bother to have a Union?
@14. It's a shame about Farage. A politician in the Churchill mould. Hasn't Cameron appointed Labour members for particular jobs in the past? Farage for UK representative to the EU!
@19. scotland doesn't have any petrol. Except for the stuff delivered to petrol stations from English refineries.
@20. Salmond will be lost. It's one thing facing 128 MSPs as a First Minister able to shout everyone else down. It's another thing to face 649 real MPs, as an ordinary member, when the majority already hate him. It's questionable how long he'll last. How will he travel through a hostile country to his place of employment?
22
May 08th, 2015 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“How will he travel through a hostile country to his place of employment?”
He won't... he will get a flat there and will claim it on expenses and you will be part footing the bill....;-)
#22 scotland doesn't have any petrol. Except for the stuff delivered to petrol stations from English refineries.
May 08th, 2015 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What about Grangemouth?
#23
May 08th, 2015 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nice one !
@24 - The dude's a xenophobe, as simple as that.
May 08th, 2015 - 01:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for independence, the only that will happen is if there's a continued change in public opinion, if there's a public demand for it, or if something happens in the UK which could be against the wishes of the Scottish people, e.g. if Scotland voted majority yes to staying in EU (in a probable EU ref), but the rUK voted to leave. This situation would be a more than reasonable argument for an immediate referendum.
Anyway, the election results are in, and as a first time voter I've been captivated up here in Scotland. Really surprising to think that in only 5 years, Labour have went from having 40+ MPs in Scotland, to only 1. That's what happens when you treat long-time Lab voters with contempt, and work with the Tories I'm afraid.
scotlands attempts to curb sectarianism and stamp out religious extremism is a bit like my dad-oladejo awoku-if he coughs we all catch cold
May 08th, 2015 - 02:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@16 EscoSes Doido
May 08th, 2015 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't crow so much! The SNP did not win more than 50% of the vote.
@19 idiot child. You never make wise remarks as you know f--k all! There is little Scottish oil so your forecast, as usual, is crap - with which you are familiar!
Interesting facts & numbers about British “democracy”
May 08th, 2015 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 seats 99,809 total votes taken.
UKIP 1 seat 3,881,129 total votes taken.
Mhairi Black 20 student with pimples and a large bottom, has a seat.
Nigel Farage hasn't.
If Scotland would be independent it would be a single party dictatorship.
total votes/ seat
SNP 25.972
Social Democratic & Labour Party 33.269
Tory 34.244
Labour 40.244
Sinn Fein 44.058
Plaid Cymru 60.564
Green 1,157,613
UKIP 3,881,129
LOL!
The SNP did not take more than 50% of the vote in Scotland i.e. 50% of the votes there were for other parties.
May 08th, 2015 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Conservatives and the Labour Party together with the Liberal Democrats and UKIP should now work closely together to overcome this new threat to the Union.
A 'small' number of Scottish voters giving large numbers of SNP MPs (40+),
May 08th, 2015 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0c.f. a large numbers of UKIP electors from across the United Kingdom giving just one MP (1!).
[Similarly, large number of voters giving just producing just (1!) Green MP.]
There's something greatly wrong somewhere in the '*structure* of government'.
I think that there needs be a something called Boundary Changes in a couple of years. This may better balance up the size of constituencies.
Perhaps Parliament will be a great need to train up these new Scottish 'Child-MPs'
31.
May 08th, 2015 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL!! Nooooo. You think??? I had a look at the electoral system and the history of the last elections and pretty much decided it was a joke before the results even came up.
In a few minutes I realized its all made up for the regionalims and traditional big westminster parties. Lab & Con
At least people of Argentina can say they got the shit politicians that they voted for!!!
Comment removed by the editor.
May 08th, 2015 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 033 Pablo
May 08th, 2015 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Election explained
https://www.facebook.com/theguardian/videos/10153296963926323/
@23. I may agree. The bloated 'SNiPer' may well get a flat. Something sharp where it will help the UK. Remember that the UK IS England. 1% Irish, 3% Welsh, 8% scotch. And the rest is English.
May 08th, 2015 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@24. What about it? “the UK's second-oldest refinery, and it supplies refined products to customers in Scotland, northern England and Northern Ireland, as well as occasionally further afield.” So most of England doesn't need it. Noticed that Grangemouth is 'supplied' by BP-owned North Sea Forties pipeline system ends there? And when the British government says 'Shut it down'? Know how easy it is to cut a pipeline?
@26. Who's a xenophobe? For my part, I hate traitors. I recall that, at the beginning of the 18th century, England bailed scotland out. It, scotland, has never offered to repay the money that England spent. That would be to avoid the majority of the scotch dying from famine or starvation or eating each other. England (the UK) needs to end all subsidies to scotchland (e.g. Barnett formula) until more than £2 quadrillion has been repaid. The truth about scotchland. It lies. It cheats. It steals. And it carries on stealing. Just check. The scotch whine about paying more tax. But only since 1975. What about the other 268 years? And they want to steal 8-9% of UK assets as well? Is there anybody with honesty or integrity in scotchland?
@31. It has nothing to do with the structure of government. Try electoral practice. There were supposed to be boundary changes after the 2010 election. The LibDems lied and reneged.
I really can't tell you what I'd do with Scottish Nationalist MPs. But knives and tongues come into it. I have a massive wish to see Salmond lying on a pavement with a hole in his forehead and blood spurting from the back of his skull. Attempt to destroy my country, would he?
@33 Idiot child
May 08th, 2015 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only islands I have ever visited are Long Island, the Bahamas, Malta, Cyprus, the Isle of Wight, Ireland but NEVER the “islets” to which you always refer with total disdain. You are stupid!
Argentines
May 08th, 2015 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here is the YouTube link, for those like the wee man who don't dare open a FaceBook account
UK Election explained:
http://youtu.be/o4IpGlQX7CI
#35 You raise an interesting point regarding the Forties and its landfall in Scotland - as do most other major north sea pipelines. Soon to be joined by a major gas line to Shetland. Who do you really think controls the flow of those resources?
May 08th, 2015 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Also, take a guess at what influence an English Government would have on the largely American based and Scottish manned BP or other international oil companies that operate in the North Sea? None whatsoever is the answer there.
It's really easy to “cut” an oil pipeline, although doing so would brand you an environmental terrorist. Shutting down an oil pipeline is a great deal less straightforward and requires all platforms to shut down their production.
It must be nice for you living in your southern english sphere of hate and bitterness.
You mention traitors - like many Scots here I served in Her Majesty's Armed Forces and was proud I did so. I've asked you this before with no answer forthcoming. Have you served your Queen and country? Or are you like all the other southern english pansies and arm chair warriors I've come across?
#35
May 08th, 2015 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your country ? Delusions of grandeur again !
I posted this below on another thread on which you peddled your usual biased crap.
I note you ignored my polite question and have peddled the same rubbish again.
ACT RATIFYING AND APPROVING TREATY OF THE TWO KINGDOMS OF SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND . January 16, 1707 .
XV Whereas by the terms of this Treaty the subjects of Scotland, for preserving an equality of trade throughout the United Kingdom, will be liable to several customs and excises now payable in England, which will be applicable towards payment of the debts of England contracted before the Union, it is agreed that Scotland shall have an equivalent for what the subjects thereof shall be so charged towards payment of the said debts of England in all particulars whatsoever in manner following, viz., that before the union of the said kingdoms the sum of £ 398,085 10s. be granted to Her Majesty by the Parliament of England for the uses after mentioned, being the equivalent to be answered to Scotland for such parts of the said customs and excises upon all excisable liquors with which that kingdom is to be charged upon the Union as will be applicable to the payment of the said debts of England, according to the proportions which the present customs in Scotland.
Maybe I missed something here. You will no doubt be able to show me in the wording where your “ loan” is mentioned or could you just be gnashing your gums as per usual.
What YOU would do with Scottish MP's....crap your pants most likely.
Grow up you ignorant cowardly twat.
With best wishes.
This has been a good day...Millipede gone....
May 08th, 2015 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Economy safe guarded for a few years....
Scotland all over Westminster....
...and Conqueror foaming at the mouth....
Ahhh....perfect...;-)))
40 Voice
May 08th, 2015 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“This has been a good day...Millipede gone....
Economy safe guarded for a few years....
Scotland all over Westminster....”
Oh yeah!!! Happy days!!!
More foodbanks............. More uncontrolled immigration........ More cuts to Education, Defense and the NHS... Sorry, I mean the INHS and more bleating from the other side of Hadrians Wall.... It's a GREAT day!!!
I'm going to join the party that happening on our street right now.........
Having a laugh at all the Scottish glee at the SNP being a major force in Westminster. The people of Scotland are very soon going to get absolutely everything they want. What they have succeeded in doing is putting the seal on the new federal UK. Scotland are about to get more autonomy than they ever believed possible. We will very soon be four independent states of a United Kingdom, can't see there being much desire for independence after that.
May 08th, 2015 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Outflanked
Couple of sore losers above....
May 08th, 2015 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0One abysmal on Geography...
It's English territory on both sides of Hadrian;s wall...Doh!....;-)
...and the other a defeated Labour supporter from...guess...North of England....;-)
Eee bah gum and ecky thump...salt of the earth and workers unite....etc...etc.....
42.
May 08th, 2015 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting but I dont see a power structure shifting any time soon. Regional parties and traditional Westminster ones will continue to rule and set the rules for decades to come.
I say this because I know history and power structures are never anywhere being easy to replace.
The Scots have outplayed all by getting the perks and goodies and not having to pay for it. They are indeed not stupid enough to vote for independence.
41.
Your only hope is now that FRANCE votes the FN of Marine Le Pen or at least forces a French referendum on the EU and has a domino effect in the UK, but I doubt judging from last midterm elections.
Well, the slagging of can stop now,
May 08th, 2015 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0David has been returned to power,
and that is all that should concern us all for the moment,
Sleep on it, waky uppy in the morning and think?
5 years, David has 5 years to keep his promises to ALL the British people,
in the meantime we have the 2017 EU referendum to deal with ,
and all the promises to be implemented ?
time will tell if the public voted correctly or not,
We must stick together as a united country to stave of those who would seek to take from us everything they can , the EU,
still,
we will all no doubt find something abt David to have a dig,
Last but not least, one man stated that a political bombshell would hit, and start to change British politics,[ but I will not name him]
but lets just say , heads rolled today,
but one head, rolled sideways--he still remains a Euro MP, and on the side lines ,Nigel Farage ,, he wont be far away,
last but not least, agree with them, or hate them , the Conservatives have won,
so live with it, and enjoy the ride,
that's democracy in action.
thanks and this is just my humble sarcastic opinion...lol
later friends.
@35 Conqueror
May 08th, 2015 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't know why you bother to appear around here - not only do you hate all foreigners you especially seem to have a problem with your own fellow citizens of the United Kingdom. Are you a member of the English Defence League or some similar xenophobic organisation?
I notice the moderator frequently erases your rants - why is that?
@38 Sheltie
I am from Hampshire but I am not like all the other southern english pansies and arm chair warriors you may have come across! I served in the RN and many of my shipmates were Scots - British just like me! It is sad that Scotland and the Scots feel so hard done by!
Blimey!
May 08th, 2015 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I actually agree with myself? Err... I mean Voice! A wicked Tory!
Gives us a blast on the bagpipes...
“but lets just say , heads rolled today,
May 08th, 2015 - 08:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but one head, rolled sideways--he still remains a Euro MP, and on the side lines ,Nigel Farage ,, he wont be far away,”
Forget it, the Lib Dems have a history of half a century in politics, only once they got close to power 3.5 MM votes behind the tories but only 5 times less the ammount of seats the tories held and only into a coalition to be the “Yes men” and “he, did not let me do anything” men. Now they are destined to obscurity.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11593537/Liberal-Democrats-mull-50-years-in-the-wilderness.html
UKIP with no Farage is doomed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11593537/Liberal-Democrats-mull-50-years-in-the-wilderness.html
Your system is undemocratic adn corrupt and its even worse than Argentinas, and that is saying a lot.
48 CabezaDura2
May 08th, 2015 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Your system is undemocratic adn corrupt and its even worse than Argentinas, and that is saying a lot”
Do you practice at being a retard or does it just come naturally to you?
Mind you, I sort of don't blame you entirely. Of course you are going to sound brain dead if you are using The Daily Torygraph as your source material.
Please explain how the FPTP system is worse than ballot box rigging and buying votes........ ( IF you can )
@49. He can't. He is busy getting all worked up about something that doesn't affect him in the slightest and he cannot comprehend. But he has nothing else to do as he doesn't work for a living.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 050 ElaineB
May 08th, 2015 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“He can't. He is busy getting all worked up about something that doesn't affect him in the slightest”
Ooopppsss!! Sorry, my bad. I thought for a minute there I was going to get a sensible, half thought out answer but thank you for putting me straight on that.
I should have known really that all this election talk was beyond him.
4,7 % of the population vote SNP and get 56 seats at Westminster
May 08th, 2015 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 013% of the population vote UKIP and get 1 seat at Westminster.
That is not democracy.
UKIP wll not fold, Suzanne Evans is very capable and will rise to the challenge. UKIP increased their UK vote share by 10% and came second or third in most seats in England, which is pretty impressive for a young party. These are good foundations to build on and they will be very influencial in the 2017 vote to get us out of the EU.
Im no great fan of the tories or Cameron, but one good thing to come out of this is the Northern Powerhouse, massive investment in Manchester and the surrounding regions . Also, you heard it here first, my money is on Manchester being the location of the future English Parliament, the Conservatives know that it can't be in London.
The Tories will need to ensure the 2 million who voted for the SNP are not ignored, likewise the 4 million who voted UKIP should not be ignored either.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Proportional representation to be introduced for all future elections would be a good start. Otherwise democracy will be getting a bad name.
49.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But people in Argentina get what they vote for. It doesnt work like that in the UK. And the ones they vote for are the ones that write the laws. Not Brussels.
Argentina may be more corrupt and poorly administrated, but actually the system is more democratic.
Besides for what I have heard on the debates its all about buying votes in the UK as well.
50. What I do for a living is not of your concern, until the point you know Im self employeed and unlike you Im not an expensive bureaucrat I dont live off the tax payer.
@50 You are right and what I do is none of your business. We agree on that.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 055.
May 08th, 2015 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It’s different, because you are a bureaucrat. Even if you would sell your body I would have no reason or right to judge nor condemn you, however you depend on the State and the system. And I cant blame you for defending your interests I have already said so.
You know I know this. So spare me
@56 Except I am not. You are clinging to some weird fantasy you have built up around me and can't let it go. Like all insecure men you can't admit you are wrong. So, I guess I will continue to call you an unemployed bum sponging of the state. See, we can both play that game.
May 08th, 2015 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well Im afraid you are lying, you are a bureaucrat, and you will never convince me otherwise. Im sorry.
May 08th, 2015 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have already said far to many things that dont add up. Do we really need to over this again??
If I was an “unemployed bum sponging of the state” -as you blaspheme because you know Im not-, I would not hold a scrap of Libertarian ideas near anarcho capitalism, specially in Argentina where this stuf is even heard of.
Your self professed job is to know and survey what opinions in Argentina are so in fact you know how out of average I am. Who ever in the private world will employee you to do this and arrange trips for you in December to Washington DC??
You on the other hand stand by your interest and I dont blame you for it as it goes against ones one nature to shoot himself in the foot.
@58 Live in ignorance; it suits you.
May 08th, 2015 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#46 gordo1 - Point taken. I need to be careful with my sweeping statements but one individual on here seems to bring out the very worst in me. For the record I personally don't feel hard done by at all, but given that Britons of all nationalities have fought and died side by side for many years I find Conqueror's xenophobic and jingoistic rhetoric sticks in my craw.
May 08th, 2015 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“”“But people in Argentina get what they vote for.”“”
May 08th, 2015 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, you do.. and it serves you right.
-----
“”“”That is not democracy.“”“””
Actually, it is... its not a very good form of democracy, but in reality there isn't a nation on this planet that practices full democracy... and if you grasped what full democracy was, and then spend any time at all on this website, you'd be glad there isnt.
In truth though every FORM of democracy on the planet can be criticised in one way or another... some more rightly so than others. The FPTP system is archaic and anachronistic, and should be changed to PR - or some other similar more representational system...
but FULL democracy - sorry, no way: its true that at least half the people you meet are below average intelligence and most of the intelligent ones I wouldn't trust to make any decision.
It will be a long way beyond the days of Star Trek before mankind sees true FULL democracy with every citizen knowledgeable and involved ine very decision.... and god helps us then anyway.
---
In the meantime, feel free to gloat that the Argentine system of buying votes by handing out food packages and other bribes is better than the British FPTP system.... you ARE welcome to your system... and it seems the Scots maybe following soon in your footsteps...
right after the Barnett formula is ended....
61
May 09th, 2015 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0....“and it seems the Scots maybe following soon in your footsteps...”
Would you like to qualify that statement and conclusion....explain yersel ya wee weaselly w@nker.
Wha will be a traitor knave
Wha can fill a coward's grave
Wha sae base as be a slave
Let him turn and flee
Lay the proud usurpers low
Tyrants fall in every foe
Liberty's in every blow
......Let us do or die....
just saying like....
And a number people in England have the nerve to call Scots racist and xenophobic towards them. One only needs to look at some of the comments above,and comments that have been made here in the past couple of years about other countries. Hate to tell you, but England wasn't that great when much of my family lived there, since they all moved. And it's only going to stay the same because of people there failing to realise that voting for the same two parties has been the problem of the UK for decades. The entire parliamentary and electoral system needs an entire overhaul, if the UK is to survive longer than maybe a couple of decades, probably less.
May 09th, 2015 - 12:29 am - Link - Report abuse 061.
May 09th, 2015 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0“In the meantime, feel free to gloat that the Argentine system of buying votes by handing out food packages and other bribes is better than the British FPTP system.... ”
I never said the Argentine system is better, but I said far more democratic than the British one.
Dictators have run economic and civil affairs in many countries better than many civil elected ones. Democracy is so overrated [Frank Underwood], and I will add its a guarantee of nothing .
But I repeat; Argentina is far more democratic.
In 2011 The FpV won even in Recoleta, one of the poshest hoods of BsAs.
However if we had the same system that the UK has in that same general election 4 years ago, congress would have had not + 40% of opposition lawmakers, but more like 2 or 3 lawmakers in a Sea of Ks.
But please spare me, I have browsed your debates, 3 women; a Scottish one, an Australian one, and Welsh one running a race over how to give MORE money away. Not a single one knew how to reduce the debt and deficit... [how longer are the interest rates in the BoE going to be at near 0??] Milliband, Cameron and the other posh guy just lying. Nigel Farage the only intelligent, to the point and realistic candidate you had. He got 4 million votes, he got no seat.
A student of 20 yo with pimples and a large bottom did in Scotland.
That its not a democracy by my standards.
Probably it does need change in UK voting methodologies and 'philosophy'.
May 09th, 2015 - 06:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nothing should be set in Scone that it becomes ossified in abuse and cobwebs.
We have ways.
Unfortunately, the ways of voting seem to be 'South American'. A perfect technology CAN exist to (eg) multiply transfer votes etc; it can be made 'electronic' using Venezuelan technology; it can be scrutinizised for act and effect ... but it can be abused with the best ;-) and worst of corrupt practices. This is what defines the subtleties of dictatorship.
I'm intrigued by the bag of votes that have just rolled down to the 'south' of Scotland and are bunched together excitedly waiting for something to happen - pregnant with juvenile expectation and wondering if there really WILL be nationalist somethings happening in the near future. I think they will will suffer disillusion; perhaps even dissolution.
Scottish Labour's Jim Murphy's departure speech was humbling, considered and reconciliative; no better response from 'his people' came during those long, long hours of ritual harakiri ... but at least he had months to get his speech together.
I am cutting down on posting because of a brain cancer; it is getting a bit much with the treatment but I wish you all well.
England has spoken and its economy is protected.
May 09th, 2015 - 06:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tralalalala
@65 GeoffWard2
May 09th, 2015 - 06:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry to hear Geoff; good luck and my thoughts are with you.
Your always intelligent, respectful, coherent and insightful comments will be sorley missed during your hiatus . Best of luck and please get better soon.
D
@65 Geoff
May 09th, 2015 - 07:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0I echo the sentiments expressed by the above poster ( and would add, your sense of humour ). I sincerely hope you recover, sense of humour intact.
I have serious concerns about UK's two party system but at least it's an open process where the discrepancies are there for all to see and not hidden as in other so called democracies.
May 09th, 2015 - 07:48 am - Link - Report abuse 012.5% of the UK population voted for UKIP and are given one MP. The SNP with around 3% of the vote get fifty six MP's. I'm very sorry but by any measure this stinks.
Whilst I do not expect the matter to be addressed in respect of UKIP, the number of seats allocated to Scotland must be reduced by the boundary commission, in addition with the increased devolution to be granted to Scotland, SNP MP's must be prevented from voting on English only matters, at Westminster. This must all happen before the next election.
Geoff, let me get this straight... UK election system is so corrupt and undemocratic, you'd wish to copy (in some extent) the election system of Venezuela.
May 09th, 2015 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Wasn't Venezuela a dictatorship?
Me, I love the resultat. Kept UKIP out of the picture, all while sledgehammering your perception of corruption.
Prime example of democracy. Your democracy.
@65 Sorry to hear that, Geoff. I wish you a speedy recovery.
May 09th, 2015 - 08:50 am - Link - Report abuse 065
May 09th, 2015 - 09:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0.....Mr. Geoff Ward....Please get well soon!!!
65 GeoffWard2
May 09th, 2015 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me add my name to the list of well wishers.
I hope you can shake off the big “C” and stay with us. I will be looking forward to your continued postings.
Take care & be well
Thanks for the well wishes, guys -and gals.
May 09th, 2015 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A lot of Parkinsons, so lots of corrections.
Luckily, no serious Fuherian rants yet.
65 Geoff Ward
May 09th, 2015 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Best Wishes to you, Geoff!
#74
May 09th, 2015 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have friends who have gone through the treatment and 15 years later are still with us. Best of luck.
CabezaDura2
May 09th, 2015 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forget it, the Lib Dems have a history of half a century in politics, only once they got close to power
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/575757/party-strikes-fear-into-Westminster?_ga=1.214557076.2041191857.1431025079
In 1999 Ukip won seven per cent of votes to elect its first three MEPs, including former City trader Nigel Farage.
In 2004, Ukip won 16 per cent of Euro election votes, got 12 seats and pushed the Lib Dems into fourth place.
After Mr Farage became leader in 2006, Ukip finished the 2009 Euro poll with 16.5 per cent of votes and 13 MEPs and pushed Labour into third place.
Last year it made a breakthrough at the European elections with 27.5 per cent of votes and 24 seats.
In 2006 Tory leader Mr Cameron dismissed Ukip members as “fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists, mostly”.
Predecessor Michael Howard in 2004 had reportedly authorised branding Ukip “cranks and political gadflies”.
By 2013, Mr Cameron was evidently taking Ukip seriously and his pledge of an EU referendum and repeated toughening up of his rhetoric on immigration control was seen as a bid to fend off the threat.
[ from nothing to something isn’t bad,]
UKIP with no Farage is doomed
They polled 4 million plus votes, and are now considered Britain’s 3rd biggest party,
UKIP actually lost nothing, as far as MPs were concerned, they had one before the referendum, and one after, labour and the libdems both lost heavily,
Mr Farage was an euro MP before the referendum, and is still in the same job,
He has merely gone sideways,
As long as Cameron keeps his promise then ukip may well just be that, [ UKIP]
But if Cameron screws up, the public may, just may, give ukip that elusive chance, who knows, stranger things have happened, but to be fair, we are talking at least 5 years away,
The European referendum will be the next big challenge,
Just my opinion.
.
@Briton
May 11th, 2015 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fair enough but I don’t quite see how that rebuttals my case.
UKIP will need decades and resources and will need to outlive various energetic leaderships like Farage's in order to get to power.
Under the current electoral system you can’t make a political “earthquake in British politics”.
It just took the Lib Dems 4 years in relative position of power out of 50 years of politics to utterly fail and fall from grace.
It’s like running against a declining electric ladder and the guy that is at the top of the next floor is firing gunshots at you.
And is it takes so much time to get there you run the same fate the Lib dems had as they get co-opted and intertwined with the political power and structure. You can easily lose the grass roots effects in a decade.
@74 GeoffWard2
May 11th, 2015 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Best wishes and get well soon please.
78 CabezaDura2
May 11th, 2015 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0well, good news for some today,
Mr farage is now UKIPs leader again.
@78 CD2
May 12th, 2015 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is a problem with proposing electoral reforms. It has to get past the people of the UK. That is how it works in a democracy.
The real problem isn't getting the politicans to agree to electoral reform, it's getting the people of the UK to agree to it.
Quite frankly people like Mr Farage needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It isn't enough to say the system is broken, he needs to propose how he would fix the system.
Alternative voting - this was the one that got a big 'feck off' from the UK population in 2010.
Proportional representation - this is what a lot of other countries in Europe use - and quite frankly most British people distrust it and see that most of the time it produces ineffective coalitions.
So you, or indeed Mr Farage, can howl at the moon as much as you want, but the real reason that electoral reform hasn't, and is unlikely, to happen in the UK is because the PEOPLE of the UK don't like any of the alternatives.
So until someone can come up with something better then FPTP will remain in the UK. It's not ideal, but then every system has its pros and cons.
81.
May 12th, 2015 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In other words the people of the UK democratically agree to a undemocratic system.
Nice.
Or is it that they have ever being asked... Just like the EU referendum???
Bufoon
82
May 12th, 2015 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0AV National referendum was in 2011...I think....voted down by the majority....
@82 CD2
May 12th, 2015 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Resorting to insults is childish and undermines any point you try to make.
It's obvious that you don't understand the mentality of the British people. Yes the FPTP system is flawed. Everyone agrees with that. What people don't agree with are the alternatives offered instead of it.
In answer to your question, yes the British people have been asked. They had a referendum in 2011. Do try to keep up. They voted against changing the system we have now, although they were only being offered one alternative system - the Alternative Vote. This referendum was held in 2011 (not 2010 as I previously mentioned).
The outcome? 99.4% of the population voted AGAINST changing the system.
That's a hell of an outcome isn't it?
As for PR, many British people are weary of it, as they see what the outcomes of it have been in many European countries. Coalitions that can't ever seem to get anything done because of constant infighting and backstabbing.
So if the majority, and I really do mean the majority of people DON'T like the alternatives to FPTP, then the politicians, including YOUR Mr Farage, will have to come up with something else.
Electoral reform has been an ongoing issue in the UK for over 100 years, and no one has yet come up with a solution that has caught the imaginations of the voting public.
Oh, and to go against the majority of the population IS undemocratic. Yes FPTP is flawed. No one argues against that. But in the minds of the voting public, they'd rather stick with a flawed system that sort of works, than risk a system that doesn't appear to work in other countries.
But that's democracy for you.
It's a pity that you don't appear to understand what it really is.
84.
May 12th, 2015 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I really dont care what sort of referendum they had in 2011. The principle is that an undemocratic system been democratically elected or relegitimized doesn’t make it democratic and that is what you fail to grasp.
Even in North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba the regimes must stand behind some form of acceptance and legitimization from the vast majority of people. But that doesn’t make these States democratic.
So how does your system get to be democratic.
And retard, it wasn’t voted against by 99.4% of the population, it was voted down by 66% of the able voters. That is a vast difference as it ONLY accounts for 13 million people out of a population of 64 million.
But no surprise as retarded Brits don’t understand statistics, logic, maths nor numbers, and I have seeing this trend systematically and continuously on the Muslim topic, on the electoral system topic and so many others.
@85 CD2
May 12th, 2015 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Again you childishly resort to insults, now of the whole British population.
That very fact that you DON'T understand democracy is quite frightening. YOU have decided that anyone who disagrees with YOU is undemocratic.
Well let me assure you that democracy in Britain is far better than democracy in Argentina. But I should cut you some slack. Being Argentine you have never known true democracy.
Oh here are some stats that perhaps (with the help of INDEC) you can try to understand.
World democracy ranking.
UK at number 13
Argentina at number 34
http://democracyranking.org/wordpress/ranking/2014/data/Scores_of_the_Democracy_Ranking_2014_a4.pdf
So the stats PROVE that the UK is far more democratic than Argentina, no matter how many insults you throw.
I have to wonder why you care so much though? You're not British. Worry about the lack of democracy in your own country, with your government undermining the judiciary, the free press, and murdering people investigating their cover up of the 1994 AIMA bombing.
Then you can worry about the fact that YOUR government got into power by PAYING people to vote for them.
Yup, it's no wonder that you don't understand democracy at all.
So, Britains obvioulsy undemocratic voting system is now democratic because the people chose not to change the flaws (with only 1 alternative)
May 12th, 2015 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And Argentina is undemocratic because it appears on a [Brit made] list...
Your logic is truly challenging...
@ 85 CabezaDura2
May 12th, 2015 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What is “un-democratic” about each constituency electing one person to represent them in Parliament, Parliament then electing a Government?
MPs can be de-selected by their constituencies and governments can be voted out by Parliament, if they don’t do their jobs properly.
The advantage of the FPTP system is that it gives power to the largest single party, rather than as in any PR system where the smallest parties usually hold the balance of votes and therefore decide what happens.
Far more democratic to have the largest party deciding matters than the smallest.
Slagging each other of, wont solve the topic,
May 12th, 2015 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 01, Mr Farage [whom I voted for] does have a lot to do, a new guy on the block and of course people are afraid of him , of change and new ideas,
but some of you have a point, he does need to say, how he will fix it, as to be fair, the other main parties have failed to fix it so far.
as for FPTP and PR, one should really explain the difference, so people can understand , not only what they do, but the down side as well,
I am given to understand that PR is good in the fact it would have given UKIP over 70 seats, but bad as it creates to many factions , parties , coalitions and bring many other problems to the table,
the British are used to FPTP system, and it has worked well so far, perhaps things will change in the future, but to explain what they are, and what they can produce may help people to understand more,
personally I think FPTP is ok, and until someone comes up with a better system to suit us all ?? so it will be,
just my opinion.
Fine by me.
May 12th, 2015 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But stop pointing fingers at other democracies.
pointing fingers
May 12th, 2015 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0is that a twix or a kit-kat,
who is pointing fingers, please say.
Just remember.
May 12th, 2015 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I will not, in words deny you, your right to choose your path towards what you define as a democracy.
I think the problem is media and personifications of parties. Or even worse, block politics, reducing the choices to two, making the competitors alike, fighting eachother for votes.
Career politicians is a topic. Influence of multi-nationals another one.
But all that is just me perceiving, and should you ever perceive our democracy to be less democratic than your democracy in construction, remember.
Just remember.
86. These are the facts muppet.
May 12th, 2015 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You dont have a proportional system. You dont have a democracy
Total votes/seat 2015.
SNP 25.972
Social Democratic & Labour Party 33.269
Tory 34.244
Labour 40.244
Sinn Fein 44.058
Plaid Cymru 60.564
Green 1,157,613
UKIP 3,881,129
In 2010 the Lib Dems a party that had over half a century in British politics, with only 3.5 million votes than the tories ended up with 50 seats and the tories 300.
If Scotland was actually independent and would remain with the same system, it would mean that they would only have three lawmakers in opposition.
You may say A B or C about Argentina's democracy, but at the end of the day the guy that walks into the polling station in San Rafael, Mza has far more power and independence of choice than the guy that does in Sheffield UK.
In fact part of the problem is that maybe Argentina is far too democratic.
But the system is more democratic than UK is by far... But fuck lets stop playing cat and mouse...
Proportional representation countries like Netherlands, Finland, Norway & Sweden are much better off in the ranking yourself provided.
Jezz stupid fuckers these Brits are.
92 Stevie (#)
May 12th, 2015 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just remember.
I will not, in words deny you, your right to choose your path towards what you define as a democracy
Stevie
everyone is entitled to their opinion,
you have yours, others have theirs,
and countries have theirs,
some suit some and not others, and visa versa,
me personally , I have no opinion either way,
we have FPTP here, and that is the way it is,
that's just my opinion, and others may agree or disagree,
what will be , will be.
@93 CD2
May 12th, 2015 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I never said that I supported the FPTP system, all I'm saying is that in a true democracy - you know where the PEOPLE decide - any change to an electoral system would have to be voted upon.
You have dismissed the 2011 referendum, with your 'I don't care what people voted for' attitude, which is the WORST kind of threat to democracy. The people of the UK spoke. THAT is democracy, not what YOU think it should be.
And yes I did criticise YOUR democracy in Argentina, because you were criticising MY democracy in the UK. Remember the old saying 'those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'.
You have a bit a cheek to be dissing UK democracy when your own country's democracy isn't exactly perfect either.
The people of the UK, currently, don't want PR. Why? Well it's very simple you see. Every constituency votes for a person to represent them in Parliament. That person is called an MP (Member of Parliament). Now the main sticking point as to why the PEOPLE of the UK don't like PR is this. If, for instance, the Labour candidate gained more votes it that constituency than any other party, with PR it doesn't follow that they'll actually represent that constituency because the total number of votes (for UKIP for example) means that there would have to be X number of UKIP MPs.
BUT the people of THAT particular constituency DIDN'T want UKIP to represent them. So it is UNDEMOCRATIC to foist an UNELECTED MP onto the people of that particular constituency.
And THAT is why the UK public won't vote for PR, or for AV.
So as I said it's easy to criticise (and call names because people don't just automatically believe in what you believe) but what about a viable alternative that the public would vote for?
That is what Mr Farage, and other politicians who want electoral change, need to think about. What to put in place of FPTP that would be acceptable to the British public.
Until they do then the public will stay with what they know, even if it isn't perfect.
General elections versus local elections. Problem solved, democracy re-installed... But that's just me...
May 12th, 2015 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And who am I to judge?
@96 Stevie
May 12th, 2015 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We already have democracy in the UK. I know that the concept of people voting without having to be paid to do so first is confusing for you.
Take LEP here. He is convinced I get money for my vote, wherever I may come from... What country pays best for my vote, LEP?
May 12th, 2015 - 08:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Demos Kratos was surely meant to be representative, regardless of your delusions, don't you think? LEP?
Do you understand why I call you a retard?? Do you understand that you lost your argument'??
May 12th, 2015 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You have dismissed the 2011 referendum, with your 'I don't care what people voted for' attitude, which is the WORST kind of threat to democracy. The people of the UK spoke. THAT is democracy, not what YOU think it should be.”
Wrong muppet, I dismissed the referendum because it doesnt mean anything when the system is undemocratic per sé. You chose democratically an undemocratic system. There is no beating about the bush on this, retard!!!
How many times do I have to repeat myself??
There is no vote that values more in Argentina. 4 million votes in La Matanza dont account for 25.972 in San Luis. It just doesn't work like that and frankly it cant work any other way.
“BUT the people of THAT particular constituency DIDN'T want UKIP to represent them. So it is UNDEMOCRATIC to foist an UNELECTED MP onto the people of that particular constituency.”
Wrong again muppet. There is no telling in that case if they didn't want a Conservative, Green, communist, UKIP, BNP or whatever other party. All you know is that labour won the seat. It doesnt even speak for the majority of all voters of that constituency. Say Labour wins 35% Tory 25% UKIP 15% and what is left 30% is LIB Dem, Green, or whatever, there is no guarantee that the actual majority of the people want that Labour representative.
It doesn't say much at all.
Under PR there is no interpretation. Labour wins say 35% Tory 25% UKIP 15% and what is left 30% is LIB Dem, Green, or whatever. That is what each party gets in Congress.
Silly retard.
@97
May 12th, 2015 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see we have Cabeza Dura claiming he's won, which is always a sure sign that he's lost.
@100 Hans
May 12th, 2015 - 09:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yup. You can tell he's started to lose the minute he starts insulting people.
@99 CD2
What was undemocratic about a referendum where EVERYONE of voting age got to vote on whether to change the electoral system or to keep it as it is? Please explain how THAT is undemocratic?
And 99.4% of those people voted NOT to change the electoral system. Even if the UK were using PR that's a pretty forgone result.
You are now embarrassing yourself. A good tip for you, CD2. When you've dug yourself into a hole that you can't get out of...stop digging!
And again CD2, your insults are childish as are your arguments. Your lack of insight into the minds of the UK voting public is your problem, not mine.
I've already explained WHY the UK public don't like the idea of PR, and the best you can come back with is trying to explain what PR is and insulting people.
Well we in the UK already understand the concept of PR. But the majority of the people in the UK don't like it, for the very reasons I've stated.
But I wonder why you are so 'passionate' about this, considering that the UK electoral system is none of your concern and doesn't affect you...unless of course you actually think that a coalition government made up of numerous parties would be too busy infighting to notice Argentina trying to steal the Falkland Islands. Is that why you are so upset?
The people of the UK aren't upset. Most people are glad that there isn't a coalition, we don't like or trust coalitions in the UK. Now we can all get back to our normal lives.
It's a pity you have nothing in your life to go back to, which is why you keep clutching at straws and pretending to know what you are talking about.
There's one word to describe your attitude...PATHETIC.
Hahahahaha this is hilarious :)))))
May 12th, 2015 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We have the best system of voting in Scotland....
May 12th, 2015 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We vote for the person we dislike the least.....
103.
May 13th, 2015 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0A whole post made out of lies, mute points, failed arguments and clutching at straws. It just crap
Lets see retarded nurse if it gets into your head, as it is more easy to find the Leprechaun with his pot of gold at the end of the rainbow than getting any sense of you.
And the fact that I insult you is because I really think your beyond stupid.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE
THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC.
How many times do I have to repeat myself??? In what laguages should I tell it to you ?? Smoke signals, Morse code??
104
May 13th, 2015 - 09:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0How about telling it to the right person....
that might help...
#103
May 13th, 2015 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0Too true !
#105
Nice one!!
Poor CD2 has lost the plot, as well as the argument, hence why he has resort to insults and angry shouty captials.
May 13th, 2015 - 11:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0And yet he keeps digging himself into that hole deeper and deeper.
107.
May 13th, 2015 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lie to yourself for all that matters, it not going to change a thing.
“ THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC. ”
That is is not losing the argument nor shouting. Its the point.
And if I insult you is really because I think you are stupid and you are beting over the bush.
Thats pretty much the way to treat British libtars, here. I have no respect for them whatsoever. They are just as empty as Argentine peronist.... After walking all over them and telling them for what they are they react “Ohhh you insulted meeeeeee boo hoo, so that means I have won”
Errrr...... No you havent, you are an idiot.
@108 CD2
May 13th, 2015 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's amazing how you keep digging that hole, isn't it?
I never disagreed with your view that FPTP was a flawed system. But then again so is PR and AV. There is no perfect system.
No matter how many insults you throw about or how many shouty captials you use, you have still undermined and lost your own argument.
You have insulted people just because they don't agree with you. When the UK public democratically voted not to change the electoral system of the UK by 99.4%, you called the UK public 'stupid'.
I have tried to make you aware of why the UK public is reluctant to change to either AV or PR but you can't accept that. Nor are you willing to admit that PR is a flawed system too, as is AV.
Now the more you call names, the more any outside observer can see your desperation. You are like an adolescent who must have everyone agree with them, and when they don't you get all stroppy and belligerent.
Who are you CD2 to tell the British people what electoral system to have? I have already shown you that despite the flawed FPTP system the UK is far more democratic than your country of Argentina.
So you have a cheek to criticise our democracy, when your own is even more flawed.
You come across in these rants of yours as an intolerant, small minded and petty individual. People don't agree with you, so you insult them. When practically the whole UK voting public didn't agree with your point of view, you insult them.
In a true democracy, CD2, you have to accept that there will be people who won't agree with your point of view even if you argue until you are blue in the face.
By you posts it is easy to see that you are not mature, that you truly don't understand democracy, and that you truly are an intolerant, small minded and petty person whose life in your own failing country is so bad, that the only way to make you feel better is to try and diss other far more successful countries.
You are truly one sad person. You are in fact a pitiful human being.
109.
May 13th, 2015 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why do you lie?? Why do you keep on making stuff up ???
It’s very simple.
“THE MERE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM WAS VOTED FOR, DOESNT MAKE THE SYSTEM IT SELF DEMOCRATIC. ”
You are not addressing WHY your system is actually democratic. And the simple reason is that it is not, Its all idiotic crap I get from you for it’s the only thing you are able to produce.
Look I really don’t care if the British people are stupid or not, I don’t care what the people think of PR. The outmost fact and point of this argument is the system is UNDEMOCRATIC.
And instead of actually providing reasons and arguments as to why it is democratic you insist on beating about the bush and LIE about stuff I never said.
LEP seriously, I can’t discuss and waste any time with someone that keeps on LYING that 99,4% of the people voted for this system, in fact this same statement is another example of how shitty and dictatorial your system is. Yeah 99,4% voted for that ...... in FPTP terms they did !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum,_2011
Only 13 million voted against an ”Alternative vote“, and btw who offered ”alternative vote” ???????????
That is like saying we want to change but I don’t know what towards, it’s on the service of Cameron as he already was in power when this referendum was held.
And what does Alternative vote actually consist of ???
“• Would require relatively minor modifications to existing system, and maintain single-member constituencies.”
If you maintain single- member constituencies then its pretty much useless. And its not a change at all.
I mean you guys are so stupid.
But hey LEP don’t bother any longer, room 34 needs new nappies and Mr Simpson needs a clean arse. Go for it.
@110 CD2
May 13th, 2015 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is getting painful to read, CD2. Let me help you off the hook you've impaled yourself on this time. It's really quite simple, and it's just a matter of semantics. There is no single system that can claim the label of DEMOCRATIC to the exclusion of all other systems. There are many different forms of democracy and each has its advantages and disadvantages. You are right that FPTP is not the most statistically representative. The trade-off is that FPTP inter alia avoids the classic problem of strict PR systems which tend to give disproportionate power to extremists. Take Israel for example, where some seriously nasty pieces of work can winkle themselves into positions of authority with only a small proportion of the vote. That's not necessarily representative either.
Of course I can understand that a knee-jerk extremist like yourself would be extremely in favour of a solution that favours extremists, but I wouldn't call that democratic either. Democracy is about much more than voting systems.
Silence, did you listen?? did you hear that ???
May 13th, 2015 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ahhh yes, the noice of another palestinian baby blown into pieces by an Israeli F-16 and the mother crying on BBC world.
Boo hoo Palestine
@112
May 13th, 2015 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hear the hydrophobia phase is quite nasty, do keep us informed.
Oh poor CD2. No one is agreeing with you so you throw a tantrum.
May 13th, 2015 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Boo hoo. Poor you.
I know that people like you, who refuse to listen...listen mind, not necessarily agree with others points of view, are childish, intolerant, petty and selfish.
You continually resort to childish insults because you are frustrated that people just can't see the world the way you do. Well wake up and smell the coffee because there are billions of people who won't see the world the way you do.
And you'll continue to be frustrated, and throw insults, that actually undermined some of the arguments you put forwards. I mean WHY should people listen to such a rude and ignorant person?
Democracy is more than just voting. Democracy is allowing other people to have their say and respecting their right to their opinion, even if it goes against everything that you yourself believe in.
But as I've said before. What right to YOU have to criticise other countries democracy, when your own countries democracy is a joke? Your politicians buy votes, not with promises but with actual hard cash. They attack the independent judiciary. They treat your constitution with contempt. They treat the people of Argentina with contempt.
In the UK any citizen can walk into the Houses of Parliament and lobby their MP, EVEN if their MP is the Prime Minister, and the MP has to go and see them.
I'm curious, can Argentine citizens just walk into Argentina's national congress and demand to see whichever politician represents them?
Remember this CD2. How you answer this question will show everyone your real self. So who is your real self? The intolerant, childish, petty person, or the grown up thoughtful, and polite person.
@LEPRecon
May 13th, 2015 - 04:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 099.4% was not the total “No” vote in the AV referendum, you are getting that statistic wrong.
99.4% was the total VALID votes, in other words unspoiled and having an acceptable mark in a box.
The actual voting stats For and Against were:
Yes: 6,152,607 votes - 32.1%
No: 13,013,123 votes - 67.9%
There were a further 113,292 votes cast that were invalid being spoiled or blank.
@93 NobEad
May 13th, 2015 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You dont have a proportional system. You dont have a democracy”
And you clearly don’t understand much if anything about democracy.
But then democracy is a very new concept in Argentina, and you are not widely travelled or well educated.
I mean look at your place in the world education league tables no: 62 out of 76.
http://en.mercopress.com/2015/05/13/asian-countries-in-top-five-spots-of-oecd-global-schooling-performance#comment397310
http://en.mercopress.com/2015/05/13/asian-countries-in-top-five-spots-of-oecd-global-schooling-performance#comment397310
Compared to Britain at no: 20
What kind of Diatorship do you currently have in Argentina?
@101 LEPRecon
Yep, definitely getting upset as he loses.
And he has yet to explain what is un-democratic about either the FPTP system, or the referendum which confirmed it.
I’ll help him out, I’m good like that.
Democracy:
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
@113 HansNiesund
Sounds like he is going the same way as Toby did, ranting, gibbering and moaning inanely.
Won’t be able to get a sensible word out of him soon.
116
May 13th, 2015 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are a number of issues around Democracy in the UK that need to be sorted out. Whilst I am happy with the final result which allows a decisive Conservative Government to drive through Economic recovery, I am less that happy that 12% of the population have one MP in comparasin to 4% of another section of the population who have fifty six MP's. Anybody trying to justify such a discrepancy is half way to facism.
@117 Englander
May 13th, 2015 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh I agree with you there, as LEPRecon has said it is far from a perfect system.
However I do believe it is better than any of the alternatives currently muted.
It is far more democratic to have the largest party deciding things than the smallest.
And it does retain the link between MPs and their constituencies to whom they are ultimately answerable, unlike names on a PR list who answer to no one.
And it is a far, far cry from being “un-democratic” as KnodHead is saying.
Just an idea,
May 13th, 2015 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0650 MPS
why cant a computer divide the UK into 650 segments and you have one MP for each one,
just an idea.
Pugol
May 13th, 2015 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All that is merely you perceiving... Representative democracy doesn't mean the minority rules. Only your much beloved block politics can give a minor party such a role...
@120 Stevie
May 13th, 2015 - 06:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is not always a “minority rule”, governments are elected by a majority of the popular vote as well.
However it does allow for “rule” by the largest single party, where there is not an overall majority in the popular vote.
By any definition it is representative, particularly of the constituencies.
Not sure what you mean by “block politics”.
What happened there ...?
May 13th, 2015 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I thought I was reading a post from CD2 and then it disappeared...
Did I imagine it...?
“I am less that happy that 12% of the population have one MP in comparasin to 4% of another section of the population who have fifty six MP's. Anybody trying to justify such a discrepancy is half way to facism.”
May 13th, 2015 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its all there is to be said.
LEP, Hamas and Pugol wank each other in a circle.
@123 CD2
May 13th, 2015 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Because you are incapable of looking at things objectively you cannot see just how you come across.
Intolerant of others, their opinions and ideas when they don't conform to what YOU think people should believe.
Childish insults that shows your immaturity, inflexibility and quite frankly your rudeness.
Your whole thought processes are undemocratic, against free will and free thought. People like you are the worst kind of people and hopefully you will never be in a position of power where you can actually try and inflict your views on people.
Your kind of democracy...the one you see in your mind...is the same kind of democracy that countries like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea employ. If people disagree with you, then you would just get rid of the people.
Maybe one day you'll grow up, but I doubt it. But none of your childish rants or insults will ever alter the fact that the UK is far more democratic than your own nation of Argentina. And that is the real reason for your anger, your insults, your childish outbursts.
Your jealous. And like a petulant child who isn't allowed to play with an expensive toy, you scream, and scheme, and try to break it.
But anyone reading your protestations can see who you are for themselves.
And that isn't someone who understands democracy, let alone electoral systems, and it isn't someone who understands human nature.
Now I know people like you, childish and intolerant types, like to try and get in the last word, because in your mind that means you've won.
Now come on with more childish insults and rants, which you have continuously done, and proven my point over and over and over.
You could've kept this civilised. You could've put forward thoughtful and insightful arguments. You could've been respectful of other people's opinions, and received respect in your turn. But you couldn't manage any of that, and that is why you've lost this discussion point.
And you know it.
@123
May 13th, 2015 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If FPTP is half way to fascism, we've been there a very long time already, and I don't see much evidence of us covering the rest of the distance.
But still with the sexual issues, I see. Tsk, tsk. How are your spots coming on?
LEP
May 14th, 2015 - 04:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with a lot of what you say. Especially about Cabeza.
But he doesn't sound jelous of your flawed system.
Believe me, here, from the outside, it seems he is actually dismantling your perceptions with quite strong arguments.
You can always blame the world. (Having in mind most democratic countries are representative democracies... Majority decides....?)
Or you can choose only to respons to his ramte...
That tactic works too ;)
@126
May 14th, 2015 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0As several people have pointed out, there is more to democracy than voting systems, and voting systems, like anything else, are a compromise between competing values and constraints. CD has some valid points, but he's beset by his usual inability to see the big picture, and his tendency to go off the deep end when it's pointed out to him.
As for this big picture, the Economist Democracy Index, taking into account 60 different indicators, puts the UK as a full democracy at number 16, and Argentina as a flawed democracy at number 52.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Well, Hans....
May 14th, 2015 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0You will most surely notice, that in any presentation of any sort of belief, facts made up in numbers will always triumph wikipedia lists and other biased indexes...
I have a note from 1830 saying we are better than you...
@128
May 14th, 2015 - 10:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Normally you'd be right, but a concentration on one number when there are at least 60 to be considered is only the triumph of myopia. Of course it's easier ....
Really? Gosh! But I can trump that. My agents and spies have acquired a copy of the Secret Treaty of Fray Bentos, which proves beyond all doubt Argentina's ownership of Farmville. How much will you give me for it?
Well, Hans, taking into consideration that that particular number is the direct consequence of the measured democracy and its implementation, while the wikipedia link takes quite a few measurables into account, sizes that has little to do with the democracy of the electoral process, one could argue you are merely aiming for clouds...
May 14th, 2015 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0But it must sound good in your head, I give you that...
That's ok, strive, if you prefer to cling to a partial interpretation of one number that confirms your own prejudice, that's ok with me. But you do remind me of the old joke about the magistrate who refused to call for any evidence because it just got him all confused.
May 14th, 2015 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You just have to wonder about SOME of these Argy posters.
May 14th, 2015 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CD with his “sexual issues”, paulcedron with his “anal fixation”.
They do come out with the strangest (as in very weird) comments, they seem to think are insults.
Freudian slips more like, to say the least.
Is it something in the water down there, or were they sent to some sort of “institutions” from an early age.
@126 Stevie
In our FPTP system MPs are chosen by a majority vote in the constituencies, then the government is chosen by a majority vote in Parliament.
Majority decides, twice.
It is certainly more representative for the people having 650 MPs each from his or her own part of the country running things, than a single President.
Not to mention the difficulties that are usually involved in removing a President, should it become desirable or necessary, before their term is up.
Not a perfect system for sure, however better than the alternatives on offer without doubt.
It is obvious people love to live under the English-dominated “full democracy”:
May 14th, 2015 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/thousands-call-north-england-become-9248178
Some say Nicola Sturgeon is related to Queen of Scots,
May 14th, 2015 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The first Scottish Queen to rule over the new Scottish kingdom,
from john o groats to lands end, from Carmarthen to Yarmouth,
So they say.....
On a lighter note,
line up each possible MP in a row, run them over 200 meters over hurdles,
and first past the post wins,
seem fair, at least you will know they would be fit...lol
justa joka.
134 Briton
May 15th, 2015 - 05:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0Problem is that most of those MP's don't have to run all that fast because they know they'll win as soon as they are selected by the Party. Under FPTP UK elections are decided in a few marginal seats where your vote does actually matter.
The rule of the most voted party is not even majority rule...
May 15th, 2015 - 06:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0By all means, keep your system and defend it at will, just don't squeak and point fingers at other democracies...
I would refer you to this without comment !
May 15th, 2015 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-32736153
@136 Stevie
May 15th, 2015 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can argue majority over plurality, the FPTP system contains both, but is none the less democratic for that, it is however in some ways more practical because of that.
Now, about that shitty nepotistic Argy system……..
Conq……. Launch missiles….….FIRE…. WHOOOSSSSHHHHH….
BANG!!!!!
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