MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
US Appeals Court backs Argentina: sovereign immunity for Central bank funds
A US appeals court supported Argentina's appeal Monday against an earlier ruling that could have permitted a group of creditors to seize assets of Argentina's central bank. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesAll there is left to say is this: (Griesa video footage)
Sep 01st, 2015 - 09:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3-BnVngMis
A good result and quite correct.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 09:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Pretty hard to get blood from a stone.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0When you know how our central bank actually works, this ruling becomes unfair. They may not be an Arg´s gov alter ago on paper but it works as a part of it for sure.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0And again.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Its evident that Griesa wasn't compos mentis for the case.
What a mess.
Time for politics to step in.
To all the trolls.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina still owes the money. Paul Singer will get it eventually.
And this ruling basically puts an end to Argentina ever being able to borrow money at reasonable rates in future. You only got the reasonable rates last time because you put your sovereign assets up as collateral. Now that has been ruled out, I doubt anyone would be willing to lend you a penny.
And all those Yuan the Chinese tricked your government into buying are no longer worth the paper they're printed on.
And the Central bank has nothing left in it except a lot of unsigned IOUs put there by various theiving members of your government.
Celebrate this so called victory if you must, but you have won nothing.
Look to Venezuela. That is your future.
@6 Look to Africa and the middle east that's your future.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 12:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good luck with the influx of immigrants.
@7 Klingon
Sep 01st, 2015 - 12:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hit a nerve did I?
Poor Argentines. No money. No friends. No future.
Argentina was built on immigration. It was 'the future'. Why don't people want to go the now?
Sep 01st, 2015 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hang on, trolls. I thought that the entire U.S. judicial system was engaged in a conspiracy against argieland. So this decision must be incorrect. I expect that, over the next few months, this wrong decision will be put right. After all, the U.S. Supreme Court hasn't seen a problem with Judge Griesa's judgments.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who wants a bet Gresia croaks before Singer gets paid.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 040% poverty here but the multi billionaire Singer wants every cent he can squeeze. What a POS snake the guy is.
Isn't it terrible that with 40% poverty in Argentina the government has bungled the finances of the country so they are in this position?
Sep 01st, 2015 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Seriously, do we think the majority of Argentines know what a financial mess this government has created?
@11 Klingon
Sep 01st, 2015 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And why is there 40% poverty in Argentina?
It has NOTHING to do with Singer, but it has EVERYTHING to do with your governments mismanaging of the economy, illegally seizing foreign companies, and the fact that YOUR government has stolen ALL of Argentina's wealth and squirrelled away in off shore bank accounts!
And the Argentine people just let them do it.
ALL your own fault.
Debts don't magically disappear. And Singer wouldn't have even been involved if YOUR government hadn't tried to rip off the people who loaned money to Argentina. So these people got their revenge by selling on Argentina's debt to Singer.
Your governments fault that Singer is involved. Your governments fault that you are in so much debt.
And it won't matter if Griesa dies today, tomorrow or in 20 years time. His rulings will still stand.
Argentina will give up before Singer will. After all, Singer has far more money as an individual than Argentina has as a sovereign nation. And he's better at managing money.
Argentina won't be able to borrow so much as a cent because of this judgement. All your government can do now is sell Argentina piece by piece, which it has already started to do, starting with China.
And what do you have to show for it? Worthless Yuan.
Err... 40% @11? Hows that? Your government claims its a tiny fraction of that which I couldnt understand because the last time I was there in 2009 poverty was clearly everywhere? All those poor sods coming out scavenging at night, the Villas, beggars, tricksters as well as just ordinary obvious poor folk.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are your government lying then?
@12 No, because they get fed this rubbish day in day out that the economy and economic rules that pertain to every other country in the world don't pertain to Argentina. It is a special case and, as a result, the people believe the message given to them by the government and it allows the government to frame the argument on its own ground. Quite cunning really as it plays to the general ego of every Argentinean that they are, special, different and the rules don't apply to them.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@15 Yes, very clever manipulators or they would not have stayed in power. It does not help that they control the majority of the media.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@6 LEP
Sep 01st, 2015 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This IS an important ruling and not just for Argentina.
Griesa was out of line when he ruled that the holdouts could go after Central Bank of Argentina assets. His ruling went against US law and international convention.
The Appeals court has rightly corrected his mistake. I think it is the 4th time his rulings have been rebuked by the Appeals court in relation to holdout case rulings.
Will Singer get paid?
We will have to wait and see. I think in the end he will have to settle for a haircut like everyone else got. It is in the hands of the next Argie government.
Re the Yaun: it is wrong to say it is worthless.
Despite the recent devaluation it is still worth approx 25% more (vs USD) than it was 10 years ago. By way of example the GBP is worth approx 25% less (vs USD) than it was 10 years ago. I am sure you wouldn't say GBPs were worthless?!
In any case it is largely irrelevant because it was a credit line. They are not sitting on a huge pile of yuan.
(15) Welsh Wizard
Sep 01st, 2015 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What rubbish?
This one?
http://www.ambito.com/economia/mercados/riesgo-pais/
Some twelve years ago..., when the present administration took over a bankrupted Country..., Argentina's EMBI was about 8,500...
Today it reads 585 and going down...
I ask you again... what rubbish???
This one???...:
Some twelve years ago..., when the present administration took over a bankrupted Country..., Argentina's unemployment was a whopping 45%
Today it reads about 7% and going down...)
Or this one???...:
Some twelve years ago..., when the present administration took over a bankrupted Country..., Argentina's Foreign debt was about 180% of its GDP...
Today it is about 10% and going down...)
Maybe this one???
Some twelve years ago..., when the present administration took over a bankrupted Country..., some 5 million Argentinean pensioners got the equivalent of 80 U$S a month
Today, some 8 million pensioners get the equivalent of 500U$S a month...
@18 - The rubbish that people tell me when I'm there. That Argentina is the only county in the world that operates on a completely different set of economic rules to the rest of the world. That inflation is not caused by the printing of pesos and their placement directly into the economy but by greedy shopkeepers. That the black market USD rate is caused by some malevolent force trying to destroy the country rather than by supply and demand. I'm not going to argue with you about what happened 12 years ago. It is in the past. However, the present administration continually tries to convince the populace that the basic rules of economics don't apply to them. It's laughable and also a dereliction of their duty. Tell people the truth and allow them to make up their own minds. I have accountants in Argentina telling me that the main source of inflation with regards to everyday staple goods is as a result of a mass conspiracy of small shop keepers ensuring that they all put prices up at the same time. You're clever; you can see that this is not the case. I am happy to applaud the decent things that this government has done but with that applause must come criticism of those policies which either do not work or are put in place to fill a political ideal but which actually result in damage to the people, both long and short term.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#17
Sep 01st, 2015 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lip recon @6 is an unstable person who posts from an unexplain hatred instilled in him probably from his time in the British army.
His reasoning is affected to the extent the red colors his vision of legal and illegal.He doesn't recognise that Griesa has made an incorrect judgment and one should be asking question of his integrity or questioning the appeal courts judgment.
He is an example of an adventurer.And sometimes they get lost.I personally think he might need rescuing.
@11. Cry me a river! Let us know when you have the 150% poverty your Black Widow says doesn't exist. Perhaps I could be persuaded to fly overhead dropping curling sandwiches. Well, not really sandwiches. Two pieces of bread with the filling removed. Perhaps we could drop bottles of water. Effect of a 330ml plastic bottle of water dropped from 35,000 feet on an argie skull?
Sep 01st, 2015 - 05:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17. Have you checked U.S. Supreme Court judgements? Hasn't reversed Griesa yet!!
@18. Have you returned with new “strength”? Bit short on links aren't you? Bad news. Not one single piece of argie “data” is believable. Here's the perception. ALL argies lie. Indec lies more than most. The argie “government” lies even more. Difficult to tell where your lies fall. Do you think you could be honest enough to cut your throat? Then we could get on and eliminate the rest!
@17 Condorito
Sep 01st, 2015 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please show where I state that the ruling Griesa gave was right, or that this court is wrong?
I stand by what I actually said which is this. Nothing has changed. Argentina still owes the money. Just because the holdouts can't take assets from the central bank doesn't change anything.
If anything this ruling will actually make it far more difficult for Argentina to borrow money at reasonable rates in the future.
In 2001 they got good rates BECAUSE they secured them against Argentina's sovereign assets.
Now, Argentina whines on about sovereign immunity, and about how “it's not fair” and about how “everyone is picking on them.”
Well if you take out a loan secured against your house and then fail to repay that loan, you shouldn't be surprised when the bailiffs turn up and take possession of your house.
Well Argentina will have to cough up the money, or at least come to some arrangement with their creditors, otherwise the only money they'll get will be for selling off Argentina itself. Yes I doubt Singer will get the full amount, but Argentina will have to cough up an awful lot more than it wants to. And unlike Argentina, Singer has time, money and the law on his side.
And yes the Yuan is fast becoming worthless. Not slowly over years. Quickly over days.
Many economists are predicting (and I know they're not always right) that Chinese manufacturing will collapse leading to mass unemployment, a major devaluation that makes the recent one look tame, and the rich who haven't already got their money out of China, soon will, compounding the problem.
Both Venezuela and Argentina threw their lots in with China. They converted a lot of their reserves into Yuan, in order to secure loans, and now they're buggered.
And remember that China cares about China. It'll throw Argentina to the wolves.
Argentina no longer manufactures anything of worth. It has put all its eggs in one basket and pushed soy production, and their major customers is no longer buying.
20 Yuleno
Sep 01st, 2015 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Lip recon @6 is an unstable person who posts from an unexplain hatred instilled in him probably from his time in the British army.”
Ha, ha, ha!!! Nice try!! and Think? now there is an “Unstable person” no?
and as we all know, BottyBoyPaulie has absolutely NO axe to grind has he?
and what of Pgerman? He is a wizard of the informed argument isn't he?
and then there is Great_coral_aTrolL / Tobi / Truth telling Troll / what ever he is calling himself today, He is not f**ked up at all is he?
LEPRecon speaks the Truth. I know that “The Truth” is an endangered species in argentina. In fact, it's about as rare as rocking horse s**t. Maybe that's why you think he is unstable. You are not used to people who speak “The Truth” and it sounds so strange to you.
(19) Mr. Welsh Wizard
Sep 01st, 2015 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In my humble opinion....:
The black market USD rate in Argentina (with a mere 4 to 6 million U$S daily volume) is as much caused by the supply and demand forces as the LIBOR was until very recently....
Nudge nudge wink wink...
@ 24 LUNATIC
Sep 01st, 2015 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So now two wrongs DO make a right. Only in TDC.
LIBOR was wrong and dealt with.
Cretins such as you supporting TMBOA at every turn irrespective of the facts are wrong!
Wait until the coming season and see what happens to the Blue rate. I should invest now IF you can afford it.
@22 ”Many economists are predicting (and I know they're not always right) that Chinese manufacturing will collapse leading to mass unemployment, a major devaluation that makes the recent one look tame, and the rich who haven't already got their money out of China, soon will, compounding the problem.”
Sep 01st, 2015 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where do you get these predictions? Economist and Financial Times talk about the past and present, not the future.
#23
Sep 01st, 2015 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am used to people who post rubbish,like china is on its way to economic collapse because it is finally facing the consequences of the global collapse,grown and developed, in the phantom minds of western financial capitalism.Don't worry nothing is collapsing merely suffering a setback which can be recovered by squeezing more out of no longer existing working class and are known as the poorer class when they have no work.
Truth is a very difficult concept to define and your definition might clarify what you mean and how it differs from the red mist of rage that rants on about a country not manufacturing anything among other things
Is it that hard to understand a government that governs for the people it elected it?
Sep 01st, 2015 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well: that is what the Argentine government is and that is what it's doing.
Those living in other countries or interested parties will of course feign ignorance. It's better not know.
Fact is, Paul Singer and his acolytes thought they could make some dough out of the country's misery, as they had successfully done with Peru, Zambia, and Congo.
It's not working. It will not work as long as Argentina has a patriotic government. With a business-friendly candidate such as Macri, a different scenario would unfold.
But electors are not that dumb.
@28 Yes we do have dumb electors here. They voted in the K thugs twice, there is no denying that.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The current Argentine government are only here to rob what they can.
Look no one has heard a peep from Bodou lately.
@24 The black market USD rate in Argentina (with a mere 4 to 6 million U$S daily volume) Are you shitting me?? I done a real estate transaction the other day and they were bringing out the pesos in garbage bags. More like 200 million a day at least. Look the BCRA sold off 100 million today alone. What a putz!
@22 Lep
Sep 01st, 2015 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We may be talking at cross purposes.
From your post @6 I was under the distinct impression that you thought this ruling was a bad decision. If that is not the case I apologize.
But on the yuan you say @6
“And all those Yuan the Chinese tricked your government into buying are no longer worth the paper they're printed on.”
That is simply wrong. It was a currency swap, pesos for yuan. The BCRA is not sitting on a pile of worthless yuan. I agree that China's apparent economic slow down has serious implications for commodity exporters, not just Argentina.
@Conq
“Have you checked U.S. Supreme Court judgements? Hasn't reversed Griesa yet!!”
I know.
I hate to say I told you all this was going to happen......time to take Griesa to the home for old senile men along with the usual anti argentina morons on this forum.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The ruling can be found here:
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“EM Ltd. et al. v. Banco Central de la República Argentina et al. , 13-3819, U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit”
http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/767d6261-3336-4a37-a953-7d173d22b6d1/1/doc/13-3819_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/767d6261-3336-4a37-a953-7d173d22b6d1/1/hilite/
or simply http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/767d6261-3336-4a37-a953-7d173d22b6d1/1/doc/13-3819_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/767d6261-3336-4a37-a953-7d173d22b6d1/1/hilite/
This latest ruling shows once more Judge Griesa's full support to Paul Singer and company. All the rulings he has made have just been dictated to him by the vulture lawyers.
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, this setback does not bode well for Republican Party mega-donor Paul Singer, who probably is in a hurry to get as much money as he can so he can continue generously funding the Republican Party before the upcoming presidential election.
Nobody denies Paul Singer is a powerful man and an active supporter of the one per cent, as described by Fortune.
According to the New York Times, (Wikipedia citation) he supports “like-minded candidates who often share his distaste for what they view as governmental over-meddling in the financial industry.”
You got to pity the man.
Birdbrains
Sep 01st, 2015 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 05 Vestige (“Its evident that Griesa wasn't compos mentis for the case. ”)
and
33 Enrique Massot (“This latest ruling shows once more Judge Griesa's full support to Paul Singer and company. All the rulings he has made have just been dictated to him by the vulture lawyers.”)
As has been shown time and again, also in en.mercopress, on the important items of his ruling, Federal Judge Griesa has had the full support from the U.S. Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court.
Why do you write such complete rubbish, when you know that when it comes to the pari passu ruling, Griesa has been - and is - supported by the entire US justice system?
Is it because you are stupid or because you are professional liars? ... or both?
Oh the Tsunami of hate and despondency of the anti-argies.
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 12:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Singer and Griesa still have a grand total of $0,0000000000000000000000000 cents.
34 - Street.John - Law doesn't quite work quite that simply. And while I cannot definitively state that if Griesa was found to be ... lacking ... that it would 100% mean the reversal of prior rulings from the US court system, I can say that there is a significant basis for action.
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 01:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Any time Griesa's rulings went before appeal there would have been the assumption that everything was completely in order and that he wasn't mentally somewhere else at any point during the proceedings.
If its proven otherwise and if the US court system (and political interests) has any interest in justice, and I think it does, then they'll be very keen to listen...for many years if necessary.
Can you definitively say otherwise....birdbrain.
Didn't Yankeeboy predict this would happen....?
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 08:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm sure he did... ;-)))))
He is the guy standing in the corner predicting a car crash, for 7 years.
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, even broken clocks are right once a day.
38 NOSTRILS
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0and he was 100% right!
@ 36 Vestige “Any time Griesa's rulings went before appeal there would have been the assumption that everything was completely in order”
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 05:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not at all.
The court repetedly rejected Argentina’s arguments, so it wasn't a simple recognition of Griesa's ruling.
While on the one hand the US Court of Appeal affirmed judge Griesa's interpretation of the combination of Argentina waiver of sovereign protection and the century old understanding of 'pari passu', it also criticized Griesa for lack of specifications.
“... proceedings as are necessary to address the operation of the payment formula and the Injunctions’ application to third parties and intermediary banks. Once the district court has conducted such proceedings the mandate should automatically return to this Court and to our panel for further consideration of the merits of the remedy without need for a new notice of appeal.”
A ruling of the England and Wales Court of Appeal says the same about the waiver as Griesa:
“…… The republic [i.e. Argentina] has in the fiscal agency agreement irrevocably submitted to the jurisdiction of any New York state or federal court sitting in the Borough of Manhattan … the republic has hereby irrevocably agreed not to claim and has irrevocably waived such immunity to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such jurisdiction … the republic has hereby irrevocably agreed not to claim and has irrevocably waived such immunity to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such jurisdiction … ”
#40
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Irrevocably......Waived.....Immunity......Jurisdiction
These words are the catch the eye words john boy.
But the word that matters is legal.Thats law and greasy must work within the law otherwise he is not working within the law and he's not doing his duty and hence failing in his duty.Therefore,for the sake of legal integrity,no matter with the emphasis is placed on the wording,on appeal an incorrect judgement must be challenged and up held as in this example.
Search for some more statements that satisfy your preferred outcome and send them to greasy in New York he might find them helpful.
@40, 41
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Just a quick reminder of what this whole case is about. The core case is about bonds that were issued AFTER Arg's massive default in 2001. The country was desperate for $$ and was allowed to borrow only under very strict conditions. They had to submit to US courts and jurisdiction, they had to pledge national assets as security, they had to waive any restructuring of principal etc. but then, after they got the $$, they turned around and refused to pay back anyway, essentially doing precisely what they had extra double promised not to do (Falkland Islanders please take note).
Yes, Singer & Co are taking advantage of countries and companies in distress. But that is not their fault. That is the fault of the people who issued those bonds in the first place and agreed to the conditions of the loan (arg in this case). A bond is a tradeable instrument - that is the whole point. Whenever payment is due on a bond it is due to the holder of the bond regardless of who it happens to be. So don't blame Singer for trying to collect. Blame the greedy idiot who agreed to the bond terms in the first place.
TWIMC
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 08:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Poster (42) has just presented us with a perfect example of Anglo Turnipidity...
He says...:
“Just a quick reminder of what this whole case is about. The core case is about bonds that were issued AFTER Arg's massive default in 2001”
I say...:
What will he tell us next?
That Engrish summers are always warm and sunny?
Chuckle chuckle................................................................................................................
38 Great_coral_aTrolL (#)
Sep 02nd, 2015 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Well, even broken clocks are right once a day.”
Wrong, even broken clocks are right TWICE a day.
Idiot. Have you ever seen a clock? And I am not talking of your digital time-keeping App in the corner of your screen.
I believe there used to be a beautiful clock in central BsAs, has been destroyed by the ISIS Campamoras yet?
#42
Sep 03rd, 2015 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You seem to know better than others what this decision actually means.
Perhaps you can email the appeal court with this explanation and tell greasy you done it also.Maybe he will appeal the judgement
There is no rational reason to answer Yuleno's childish and emotional rubbish, but it is worth noting, that Z-ville is wrong in assuming that “The core case is about bonds that were issued AFTER Arg's massive default in 2001.”
Sep 03rd, 2015 - 09:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The disputed bonds, issued by Argentina in February and July 2000” [1]
”Between 6 June 2001 and 2 September 2003 affiliates of NML bought bonds in the two bond series at prices which were, in aggregate, 55.37% and 62.82% of the face value of the respective series. [1]
The previous Argentina default on a total of US$ 93 billion of its external debt took place on December 26, 2001, 81.836 billion of thedebt was in U$S in bonds. There were more than 500,000 aggrieved creditors of the Republic of Argentina. [1]
There were 152 different series of bonds, with eight different governing laws (51% of Argentine debt was subject to New York law, 18% to English Law, 17% to German law, 11% to Argentine law, 2% to Japanese law, and the remaining 1% to Italian, Spanish and Swiss law).
Of the US$ 81 836 million in defaulted bonds:
49% (40 363 million) were issued during the period 1989 to 1999
51% (41 473 million) were issued during the period 1999 to the default in 2002 [4]
The disputed bonds, issued by Argentina in February and July 2000 [1], were purchased by NML between June 2001 and September 2003, at a little over half their face value of US$172 million. The bonds were governed by New York law, ... [2]
[1] Republic of Argentina v NML Capital Ltd [2010] EWCA Civ 41 (04 February 2010)
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/41.html
[2] Sovereign immunity in NML Capital Ltd v Republic of Argentina - Supreme Court of the United Kingdom - Judgment (06 July 2011)
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/41.html (page 2 (3 in the .pdf))
[3] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/41.html
[4] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/41.html
Yulena.....you make more sense on your other names.
Sep 04th, 2015 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0@46
Sep 04th, 2015 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are correct - I missed that detail. The bonds were issued right before the default and then discounted.
But the core problem remains - Arg suddenly refused to do something that they had double extra special promised NOT to do, setting a world record in the process.
That is the core problem of Peronism - they have to spend far more $$ than their income in order to stay in power and placate the ignorant masses. So they keep borrowing until they up to their ears in debt, then they default, then they start borrowing again etc.
My point is, if Arg is that quick and brazen to break international promises and agreements regarding financial matters, they will also be quick and brazen to break international agreements in geopolitical matters (such as the Falklands).
The point of the article above has to do with national assets. In a free, open democratic country, the Central Bank has a certain amount of autonomy from the rest of the government, in order to protect the currency and the economy of that country.
However, in a dictatorship the country's central bank is little more than the personal piggy bank of the dictator and his family. So where does Arg fall on that scale?
46 & 48
Sep 04th, 2015 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Interesting posts, both.
#46 St. John
Sep 05th, 2015 - 06:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0A well documented post.
Seeing those numbers we can appreciate the acceleration of borrowing, that is $40 billion in the 1989-1999 decade, and $41 billion from 1999 to 2002.
If one takes the time to read at least Wikipedia's summary, the events that lead to the Dec. 2001 default shed light on the disastrous politics that started with right-wing Martínez de Hoz, economy minister of Videla in the 1970s, and continued under Carlos Menem and Fernando de la Rúa.
Néstor Kirchner totally changed the rules of play.
He told creditors that Argentina could only pay so much if it was to pay anything at all. Most creditors, representing 92.4 per cent of the country's foreign debt, understood it and took a 70 per cent haircut.
In any bankruptcy process, such a high percentage would automatically bring to the fold the remaining creditors, the holdouts. No such thing in countries' default processes.
That is where Paul Singer et al come to play. They purchase heavily discounted bonds and then seek help from the courts to revalue those bonds to 100 per cent of their face value. NY judge Thomas Griesa--eventually backed by the U.S. Supreme Court--set up to back Singer.
In doing so, Griesa disregarded the exemplary record of Argentina payments to creditors from the moment they entered agreements with the country in 2005 and 2010. It has been estimated that Griesa's ruling sets an adverse precedent for future debt restructuring processes.
Instead of keep spending money on lawyers, Singer would be better off if he accepted to sit down and discuss an acceptable haircut to his bonds.
We may see happening after the U.S. election campaign ends and Singer is not as much in need of money for his donations to the Republican Party.
Why is there no comment in respect of Greasy's failure to make the correct judgement?
Sep 06th, 2015 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can one understand that without Argentina's persistence this judgement would become the norm.
The irrational hatred of Argentina by the UK citizens on this site influences what they think is rational thought but is actually racist laden indoctrination of racist self opinionated people.
Whatever story can be constructed is irrelevant unless correct criticism of why the appeal court judgement is incorrect can be identified
US Judges make technical errors all the time, in civil and criminal cases. That is why we, in the USA have a penal of judges in the Appellate courts, be it federal of state judiciary. Do you not understand that Yulena? And do you know that this decision can be appealed as well? Somehow I don't think the RG central bank is like the federal reserve......structurally that is.
Sep 06th, 2015 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That does not change the fact that the deadbeats who currently lead the nation of Argentina defaulted on a legally binding contract. And, within that contract they ceeded their rights as sovereign nation under the FSIA.
Most prudent people and even educated RG's feel like vomiting when the one you call the leader of Argentina, aka, Asslips Kirchner, refers to reducing and managing debt via a tactic of default. Gee, with the USA owing 1/3 of is 18 trillionish debt to foreign countries, maybe the USA can use a debt management tactic like Argentina and wave a wand and determine that, “ is not not in the best interest of the USA to honor 6 trillion dollars to FOREIGN COUNTRIES”.
I wonder what would happen.......at least to those foreign countries. I guess that's the risk of investing.
Use your other screen name, this one is boring.
Puppy you are an excellent example of someone working in the organic food industry in a country whose gvt supports Monsanto!
Sep 06th, 2015 - 07:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course I know the judgement of the appeal court can be appealed.
What I am highlighting is the reaction of the British posters and of course some Yankee posters,who post as if they are authorities.But if this judgement stands,and I think it will,how is it that few of these experts recognised it and Greasy would have supported another misjudgement.
Don't bother with what would happen if the USA were to default and try and stick to productive comment which develope things rather than sticking with anti type comments
Yuleno
Sep 07th, 2015 - 03:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Poppy makes a good analogy- Argentina is in violation of international contract law and ceded its sovereign rights to obtain loans.
Argentina's strategy of serial defaults to eliminate debts incurred trying to perpetuate corrupt regimes, is dishonest, unethical, and now unsustainable.
Are you “Vestige”
or “Stevie” or “voice”?
Or all 3 ??
#54
Sep 07th, 2015 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You think he makes a good analogy I think he misses the point.As I think maybe you want to.What about the appeal judgement.Anything?
I am not waiting for a response that will be as the rest of anti Argentina mob.
Yuleni.....I work in the organic food industry? An old commie like you shouldn't bet his life on that. Keep guessing.
Sep 07th, 2015 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The can move this to SCOTUS if the so choose. Argentina remains to be dead beat borrowers whose word and written contracts mean nothing. You and your editorial staff are fools on a a good day. Get better locks on your back doors.
55 Yulano
Sep 08th, 2015 - 01:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0You know you are both morally and legally in the wrong - you are grasping at straws, hoping for vindication for rejecting your agreements and responsibilities, in favour of your own self- interest.
Puppy,I only remember what you post,sailor.Where or if you work matters little
Sep 08th, 2015 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Troy,capitalism is morally wrong for the vast majority of the world and they know or believe there is a better way.Only stooges stooping for the scraps or rewards of the minority wealthy are the ones who believe into capitalistic legality.Why do you worry about morals and legality when the owners rob you legally
58 Yuleno
Sep 09th, 2015 - 04:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Show us a system that works better than Capitalism.
“Why do you worry about morals and legality when the owners rob you legally”
Thanks for that - you have confirmed that you deem morals and legality as irrelevant.
If matters little than why waste the space? You at times sound like Quique......maybe you both sit back and talk of the old days over mate. The fact remains undivided that Argentina:
Sep 09th, 2015 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse 01-Borrowed money
2-signed a contract to pay it back in full
3-Waived sovereignty when NO ONE would lend them money, in order to get money
4-Then defaulted and said they are not paying it back.
Some things will never change
The sun rises daily
Oxygen is necessary for life
The Falklands will never be under Argentina control
And Argentina will always be a deadbeat, poorly managed nation.....and poor, maybe even a narco nation.......hoo-ruh!!
Clearly you two are more concerned about what I post than what you believe.
Sep 09th, 2015 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 01/morals are unavoidable as such,it's what they say that matters
2/saying there is no better system than capitalism,is like saying there no better planet than earth.
3/ the appeal court judgement is legal.It is Greasy's judgement that isn't.
The sun rises daily
Oxygen is necessary for life
I don't follow this jumble so I can't comment
Than get Quique to comment.
Sep 09th, 2015 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I say again:
he fact remains undivided that Argentina:
1-Borrowed money
2-signed a contract to pay it back in full
3-Waived sovereignty when NO ONE would lend them money, in order to get money
4-Then defaulted and said they are not paying it back.
This has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism.It is basic and simple contract law that Argentina defaulted on.
Oh....and the Falklands will be under the regime in Argentina when Argentina kicks Britain's ass. Are you holding your breathe?
And do something for LatAm........start a grass roots movement to get those PR's out of the USA. Fight for their independence, I certainly wish we never did.
puppy
Sep 09th, 2015 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Money as a commodity is a capitalistic idea.
Someone gives you their money to hold,you get a bit extra for that,and they lend it out for more than you get and this is underwritten by capitalistic legal rules.
The same as gvt borrow the money and increase taxes or cut spending on arms or welfare to pay it.Capitalism.All very immoral when it is developed into financial capital.
Risk is one reason for attempting to justify the markup as in the gvt bond market,borrowing money to pay off debt.Unfortunately it is all done underwritten by the capitalistic legal system.
Stop getting so annoyed with things not being the way you think they should be and try understanding the way things are and hope the lenders to the USA don't all want their money back because you don't have it.
61 Yulano
Sep 09th, 2015 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Clearly you two are more concerned about what I post than what you believe.
1/morals are unavoidable as such,it's what they say that matters
2/saying there is no better system than capitalism,is like saying there no better planet than earth.
3/ the appeal court judgement is legal.It is Greasy's judgement that isn't.”
Yulano,
You have expressed annoyance yourself that we should point out you are morally and legally in the wrong, as you cannot justify your actions, abandoning your responsibilities and agreements.
It is your government who mismanaged funds borrowed on behalf of the Arg. people.
Capitalism - I did not at it was the best system possible. I challenged you to
show us a system that works better.
The Venzla Chavist Socialist model seems to be a complete disaster, and Populist governments everywhere are in steep decline.
capitaliam may have rich and poor, but your system is dragging everyone down to the lowest common denominator- a nation of Poor/ unemployed, and the ultra wealthy political elite. What next, will the Narco-State finally reveal its true colours.
Capitalist incentives promote self-reliance, innovation, production, and self-improvement.
You want handouts.
Argentina has no qualms about using money as a commodity - they want it, but don't want to pay for it.
Good luck with the Barter System.
Mao tried that - he traded his country's collective-grown food products to the Soviet Union, in return for MIG fighters and military technology, leading to mass starvation and privation.
Contrast this with capitalist Canada, Australia, and the US.
Yulana
Sep 10th, 2015 - 12:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Money is a commodity.
This is your economics lesson? Is this what “your” kind of Latams believe as well? No wonder you have 40% poverty rates and corruption so pervasive that it is considered a pandemic.
Immoral...lending money is immoral, earning money is immoral, making a living is immoral. I will assume this is why LatAm prefers to keep their citizens standard of living on handouts......all the while your corrupt politicians become billionaires.
Tell Yuolena, what do you call a lawyer who works for a bank foreclosing on property, then buys the property for centavos on the peso, then sells it for 100 times for what he paid for it because he not only foreclosed on it for the bank, he had the inside information to do so.....immoral? Greedy? Corrupt? Criminal? All of the above?
Also you make broad assumptions and delusional conclusions on my temperament
Yulana....you are aware that less than 1/3 of the creditors to the USA are foreign. The balance are us, Americans. Where the hell would the Chin invest the idle funds.....or where would Brazil invest.....in your utopia....aka Venezuela, your alternative to capitalism? BTW, the Chin is pulling their money to prop up their economy, stock market and yuan. Your alternative to the market system is in shambles chicacita. Like they say in poker, them em and weep. Cuba will be ahead of you girls in a few years. They are already sending people to school in the USA to learn to understand the free world, competitive tourism and hospitality training. Don't fear though, Cuba is leaving you their barter system.......with directions.
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