MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Judge Griesa rules in favor of 'me too' Argentine bond holders suing for full payment
U.S. judge ruled on Thursday that holders of $234 million in defaulted Argentine bonds suing for full payment had been treated unequally to creditors who had participated in the country's past restructurings. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesGo Griesa, go!
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 12:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This Judge just won't lie down and play dead just because TMBOA thinks she can tell him what to do.
Scioli needs to deal with this in a positive way if he intends to make TDC less dark.
LOL
While this is hardly in support of the government, because I loath the Kirchner's and her croonies. If I were Argentina I would take all the debt the the military junta borrowed and say ....FUCK YOU”@! Who in their right minds would lend money to outright dictators? My legal position would be that the debt was illegally obtained via coercive measures of an illegally ruling party. All this debt shit is getting old and I say fuck it......it's time to move on. It's a few billion......who cares.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0ChrisR
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 01:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Totally agree! Griesa rocks!
Captain
Try that strategy with your credit card companies...
Due to bad credit ratings, Argentina currently is paying loan shark rates in barter agreements to buy third rate fighter jets, frigates, used Soviet era ice breakers, etc...
I have one credit through through the armed forces credit union, USAA......and ONE In my opinion and it is most likely worthless as is everyone here who posts is, that is apples and oranges. But I also want to understand your point. So that we apply consistent logic with the credit card scenario it would go like this:
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am kidnapped, forced to fill out and sign a credit application at gun point, get the card and give it to my kidnappers and.......is this what you mean by....try that with your credit cards?
Eitherway, my question remains, WTF would lend money to real dictators? Coup d' etat dictators?
Again, my post was NOT a sign of support to Kirchner's.
Captain
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0First, I sincerely applaud your wise choice of the USAA. (IF I were a current/former member of the US armed forces, I would use that bank.)
With sincere respect: For most individuals in order to function in society, a credit card is pretty darn helpful, just like a nation having a positive bond rating with Moody and the IMF.
Loaning money to dictators is a common practice and frankly, many authoritarian dictatorships disguise themselves as “democracies” anyway.
As far as Argentina being kidnapped and having a gun put to its head, I would enjoy a the perspective of a retiree swindled from the Italian pension fund to explain their personal bitterness about Argentina's default on not paying their bonds as promised. Eventually, many near worthless bonds were purchased for less than 10% of their face value by vulture funds and that's what the pensioners belatedly ended up with to retire.
That's why I applaud vultures like Paul Singer. He's a Jewish billionaire who doesn't need the money, but he's brutal hellish punishment to the Argentine thieves.
I do not agree with most anything that Argentina does as a government, but I also cannot comprehend lending to dictators. I understand what you are saying for the disguise, hence my choice words of “dictocrats”. I've spent too many years being the muslce my my countries support of dictators and now I feel like....bullshit, I am not longer in the taking orders business.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the retirees. Its a damned shame that there advisors had them invest in risky investments, tantamount to someone today at age 65 being told....“.ppssstttt.....put your nestegg in Greece, the payout will make you a killing!!!!”
Wanna hear about my loses in the oil industry of recent? And....my early civilian years in 2008 in again....oil and solar? I've been told as we age to start re-balancing portfolios between equities and debentures and reducing risks. If we have the money to roll those dice, we live with the risk vs rewards. So no I don't feel sorry for those retirees any more than I have self pity for my loses. And, I am not investing in Greece, that's for sure.
Again, it has nothing to do with a new position on Kirchner's. I like Argentina and I loath Kirchner almost as that snake in the grass Singer. There are men who invest and then there are snakes like Singer.
Both sides of the argument have some merit but CP you give the impression the the problem of borrowing and over-spending was only during the military rule in Argentina. They have continued that pattern to this day.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0With regards to personal credit, Argentines love their credit cards but follow the attitude of their government and do not see the need to repay the money. It is an attitude.
Speaking of attitudes, I think this could have been settled a long time ago but for the attitude of CFK. Paul Singer operates within the current laws and did try to reach a settlement more favourable to Argentina than the full amount. CFK chose to grand stand to her followers and flout the law. She escalated this problem.
There is a complete lack of taking responsibility in Argentina. Everything is someone else' fault. You cannot dodge sovereign debt in that way but I do think if the current government had played their hand differently, they may have garnered a lot more help from the wider community and a more reasonable settlement. Blame CFK for this dire situation. History will.
Well Elaine, as a knuckle dragger who spent most of his life in a violent career, it is conceivable to wonder how I can possibly know things that you state above. However, your just in the nick of time post gives me the impression that only you can possibly know Argentina and the people there. But then, those are just impressions. So.....to reiterate exactly what I wrote:
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“all the debt the the military junta borrowed and say ....FUCK YOU”@!”
Argentina has a hell of a lot more debt than what the Junta borrowed. If that was not crystal, than this should be.
If I was Argentina I would not have paid back only the portion related to the junta's debt acquisition of bonds. You may very well like the work of Singer.....through and through I've always stated that he is a snake in the grass.
Again to all those one person multi facades, it's not support of Argentina.
Captain
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We're not accusing you of supporting the corrupt Argentine mentality of defaulting on their debts. Furthermore, any man who's suffered an Argentine wife has my personal sympathy. (I dated a Porteña in the early 80s, but was saved by my Chilean wife.)
The reason why I mention specifically the Italian pension fund default and it's devastating impact on retires is that these were innocent middle class Italian pensioners that were strongly impacted by the failure of the Argentines honoring bond payments that resulted in a substantial decline of monthly income. Blame it on the pension fund managers, but in the end a lot of aged pensioners were the innocent victims. There was an in depth article in Le Monde describing the crime at the time.
The only reason I like the Vulture Singer is because he's been pissing off CFK. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
By the way, vulture funds do provide a helpful service to the world economy. An old woman in her 80s receiving 20 cents on the dollar from a near worthless investment that won't be partially recoverable for 10 plus years of litigation is positive. Also, burning Cristina's ass by putting a lien on her presidential jet made me smile...
Elaine
Well written. I completely agree with your assessment, but I would include firing squads as part of the punitive actions...
Your insult of my wife does not go unnoticed but there is little I can do. And I thought you were better than that. Now me on the other hand.....hardly. But i consider the source as you are what you are, as most in SA. Personally I have even less sympathy for Italians.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mosquito's provide a useful purpose as well. Great pathways to malaria, dengue fever et al. But, that does not prevent me from swatting them.
#8 Cptn Poppy
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“all the debt the military junta borrowed...”
Well said. In spite of disagreements, your position regarding loans made by illegal military dictatorships is sound.
The western countries' support for illegal governments is at the root of much of Latin American long-lived instability and constant shifting between military dictatorships and elected governments that knew their survival depended on pleasing local elites and outside powers.
I still recall the sinking feeling waking up to military music and communiques, then learning of the international recognition of the latest military junta. We would next see the country's foreign debt spiraling to levels impossible to repay.
That lethal combination of powers gripped the subcontinent for much of its young history. There was apathy and resignation, but there were also those who fought against the system, often losing their lives or freedom in the process.
Increased respect for the popular vote is now allowing our beautiful countries to slowly build and democracy not only to governments, but to all levels of society.
@9
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 05:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Breaking news to you:
Bonds are not risk free investments.
If all those “pensioners”, “teachers” and “jewish billionaires” want an investment that will always return them 100% of their money, there are many investment vehicles that will provide this service:
A mattress, a safe, a drawer, an ajar, a glove box, a painting canvas, granny's chest box...
Good, another Griesa judgement to soon be added to his list of overturned rulings. give it a couple months.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the vultures, and those suggesting that their presence serves a purpose - well the UN are working on making sure there's no future purpose for them. That jig is up.
Holdout funds are not getting paid in this life. They bought up that debt with one goal and its not going to work.
They end up hurting themselves more than Argentina.
Their life is short - Argentina's is long.
They are few - Argentina is many.
The cash awaits them and their nagging wives - Argentina has a message to send to the worlds Singers.
So guess who's going to win the waiting game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4nJ1YEAp4
Any of my posts are not to say that Argentina is without fault because they are in large part. I said it before and will repeat it. Countries should have the same bankruptcy protections of reorganizing bankruptcies as individuals do. In the US they are Chapter 13's and Chapter 11's where the & is a liquidation, not realistic in a country. That being said they would also go into receivership and forfeit their sovereignty with respect to their debts. No country can dictate new terms to creditors and EVER expect to realistically restore their credit worthiness as did Argentina.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would beg to differ Vestige. If the hedge funds are willing to accept less that 100%, you will see movement in less than the next two years. But, if they expect 100%....than I agree.....not in my lifetime.
Mr. Captain Poppy,
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0First, sincerely it was NOT my intention to insult your wife. I personally was in love with a beautiful and passionate Argentine in the early 80s before marrying my Chilean wife who I cherish, but Porteñas are no doubt incredibly exciting. They're also emotionally very challenging and it takes an exceptional man like yourself to live with one. I was complimenting your obvious insight into understanding (if that's possible) the bizzare illogical Argentine mentality.
Please try and accept my sincere apologies for giving an impression that insulted you wife specifically. It was not on purpose.
I have two extremely close ex-naval Argentine friends that I have the highest respect for, but in general I regularly insult Argentines on a regular basis as they're mostly thieves. Most Chileans, Uruguayans, Paraguayans and Brazilians have a similar opinion for good reason...
Sovereign nations are not allowed by international law to go into bankruptcy. There are times when wealthy nations will allow debt forgiveness, especially for political gain, but not paying your credit obligations is theft, no matter what form of governance you have. What would happen if your President Obama decided not to pay the USA debt obligations of 17 trillion Dollars?
By the way, dictators have generally an excellent history of repaying their debts, especially the Communist ones. As far as Pinochet, he and the Chicago boys salvaged our nearly bankrupted economy and we now have the best bond ratings in South America.
Singer and the other vultures originally offered to accept less than 100%, Argentina told him to go f~ck off. Not a wise thing to say to a billionaire with a 36 meter super yacht docked in Manhattan. Liens placed against Argentine state assets like Tango One and the ARA naval training ship have been great entertainment, but the failure for Argentina to issue new bonds to finance projects like Vaca Muerte is killing the country's economy.
As I said, both arguments have merit.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The fact is Argentineans accepted, and the majority supported, the military government. I know some of you love Youtube so go and look at clips of all the adulation they received from Argentines. That's right, Argentines. Millions of them in the streets supporting the military government. You cannot blame everyone else for the mistakes Argentines made.
One could also make the argument that they would have retained their military government for a lot longer but for the UK winning The Falklands War.
It is simply not possible to refuse to repay loans on the basis of 'it was different back then and now we don't want to pay' and remain a member of the wider financial community. If you are a bad risk you have to deal with the consequences.
As I said before, if CFK had kept her mouth firmly shut - as her lawyers begged her to do - the outcome might have been very much more in favour of the Argentine people. Once again she let them down badly.
Let's scroll forward 10 years and imagine Argentines on a forum such as this claiming they didn't agree with the Kirchners and their disastrous economic policies so they should not have to pay any of the dept they ran up.
Thank you Chicureo........as I said I always felt you were up and up in your posts. More so than I.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I understand that nations cannot, I was merely stating that there should be some mechanisms for countries the do fall to avoid scavenger investors from exploiting them in a recovery process. I am not referring to Argentina as a case point but as a general statement of my thoughts.
The shit will hit the fan in Europe and the USA. Watching China starting to build our infrastructure and European countries run to them as bankers should be a red flag.
CFK has repeatedly screwed up her country's economic chances to take the painful and long term consequences of regaining a stable viable credit standing with organizations like the IMF.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Her policy of political populism with “smoke and mirrors” would normally be laughable, but the long term results are a worthless international credit rating with Chinese loan shark terms.
The people that really will suffer with long term economic punishment will be the Argentine people. (They already are...)
Geeeeeeeeeeee....
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some 9,000,000 (nine million) Argentinean people are “suffering” some 21% less today than yesterday after the announcement of VAT reimbursement for pensioners and AUH recipients...
Social politics and countercyclical economics working together in perfect harmony like ebony & ivory....
Chuckle chuckle...
#18 There's no denying the damage she did for her citizens. They grow more and more isolated and thst could have worked 30 years ago. But in a globally integrated world, N Korea, Cuba and Venezuela are the end results. She even recused Argentina from vote monitoring in Chubbies old Venezuela. Shows where her position on democracy is.
Oct 23rd, 2015 - 10:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like Pops says...and like I have always argued...Investments involve risk....
Oct 24th, 2015 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0If you are not willing to suffer losses as well as gain profit...DON'T INVEST!!!
Singer bought the junk with the sole intention of suing for the full value....profiting out of misery.....
Having the financial and even political clout to achieve this and apparently the odd judge in his pocket....
He deserves all he has gotten so far......fcuk all......
Voice
Oct 24th, 2015 - 03:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0You should read one of articles written about Paul Singer in WSJ or Forbes about his success rate. The “vulture” has made ENORMOUS profits by buying “worthless” financial instruments and recovering a large percentage of the face values.
Agreed that “...Investments involve risk....” and “If you are not willing to suffer losses as well as gain profit...DON'T INVEST!!” But you forget that the issuance of sovereign bonds are guaranteed by the country that sells them and there is an obligation to pay the debt upon the agreed upon period. If no one complied with that obligation it would cause enormous damages to the world economy.
As I mentioned earlier, the impact of President Obama not respecting the USA's 17 trillion debt obligations would destroy the world's economy alone.
Earlier in this thread I also specifically mentioned the case if Italian pension funds that were illegally defaulted upon by Argentina. The only reason Argentina obtained sales to them was because they were issuing sovereign debt that is normally a very safe and secure investment. Today no one wants to loan Argentina anything except the Chinese at loan shark rates and under specific terms. It will take years for the Casa Rosada to change this hardship.
A nation can declare bankruptcy, but a nation cannot. Even the Castro brothers, Putin, Assad and Maduro comply with this.
My dear uninformed hermanito Shileno says at (22)...:
Oct 24th, 2015 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 01) ”A (Person/ Juridical Entity) can declare bankruptcy, but a Nation cannot.”
and
2) “You should read one of articles written about Paul Singer in WSJ or Forbes about his success rate. The “vulture” has made ENORMOUS profits by buying “worthless” financial instruments and recovering a large percentage of the face values.”
I say...:
Well.... That was indeed true..., BEFORE Mr. Singer and the other Necrosyrtes were Cannae-nianly defeated by our new Argentinean “Thinking” Elite...:
http://www.dw.com/en/un-backs-argentina-in-debt-dispute-with-vulture-funds/a-18708466
http://www.dw.com/en/un-backs-argentina-in-debt-dispute-with-vulture-funds/a-18708466
Chuckle chuckle...
THINK
Oct 24th, 2015 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0INDEED my esteemed acquaintance is correct. As rapid as a racing tortoise, the UN is crafting protective resolutions to thwart vulture funds in the future from terrorizing deadbeat countries that have defaulted in honoring their sovereign debt. There are roughly 450,000 angry Italian bond holders alone that took judge loses and still waiting for partial payment. It's said that Paul Singer's company purchased his Argentine bonds for slightly more than 20 cents on the Dollar and has all the time in the world to settle. I read in the Economist Magazine that in 1902 after Venezuela defaulted on its sovereign debt, German, British and Italian gunboats blockaded the country's ports until the government paid up. Times were just much more simpler before the UN meddling...
22
Oct 24th, 2015 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All I'm saying is that a Country is susceptible to making bad decisions or poor Economic growth or volatile production and economical mismanagement....
It happens to all countries...Chile included...
A country cannot be declared bankrupt so there are accepted mechanisms in place where investors usually take a haircut on their investments....
It's how the world goes round....
Then there are Companies that exist to profit from misery...buying third world debt at pennies and suing for the issued value....they were not the original investors and have no relation whatsoever to the original investors neither Italian or otherwise...
It is Ethically and morally wrong to take advantage of the existing legal loophole and this is now being rectified...
I'm not quite sure why you keep quoting US debt as an example...as US debt is majority owned by US citizens....not foreign investors...
Same as UK debt is majority owned by UK citizens...
Any International Company that invests in what is deemed as third world debt is taking an enormous risk and should understand the consequences...
My Anglo-Shilean hermanito at (24) says...:
Oct 24th, 2015 - 01:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“in 1902 after Venezuela defaulted on its sovereign debt, German, British and Italian gunboats blockaded the country's ports until the government paid up. Times were just much more simpler before the UN meddling.”
I say...:
Yeahhhhhh...
Times were indeed much more simpler for the beasts before the UN meddling...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/ValparaisoBombardment.jpeg
But times they are a'changing...
@2. Perhaps you could start by defining what part of argieland's debt is attributable to the Junta? I haven't been able to find any indication that the debt recovery that Singer is seeking has anything to do with the Junta. But perhaps a step further. One needs to look at whether the “democratic” governments of 1983 and later continued to borrow in order to service any Junta debt. If they did, the surely the debt has been accepted as theirs? Moreover, I suggest that your solution is somewhat simplistic. We should all know how argie governments lie. Or are you suggesting that financial markets get involved in determining what debt can be written off and what debt has to be paid?
Oct 24th, 2015 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@6. I think you should look at how the bond issues were presented to potential investors. The thing that stands out for me was the use of New York law. I have said before that I believe that it was intended to be a scam from the very beginning. If a country deliberately sets out to defraud, it deserves to be punished. I believe that Kirchner (deceased)'s approach over the “haircuts” was indicative. “Accept this or get nothing”.
@14. Why would countries need the “protections” you mention? Countries, generally, just turn round and claim sovereignty. It is ordinary people that need “protection” against countries. As I recall, at the time of bond issue, argieland specifically gave up any right to claim that it was sovereign debt. Hasn't stopped it trying though.
@17. Try thinking about how many countries have tried the legalistic twisting and turning that argieland has? How long is it now? 11 years? I believe that the Kirchners expected that no-one would be able to take legal action against argieland. Consider who is reported to have bought the bonds? People using their savings and the money being saved for their pensions. Where would they get the money? Unfortunately, argieland has come up against Singer who has the money. How much did Singer pay for the bonds? More than argieland offered?
All valid points to ponder.
Oct 24th, 2015 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2003/03/spring-development-kremer
I still say if I am in my 60's and have a honey to to manage, I am moving to more bonds than equities. IF I choose to invest in sovereign bonds, I'm no investment guru, but I am not investing in Zimbabwe, North Korea, Egypt........the countries go on. And emerging markets for my retirement years.....seriously? Why not invest in commodities with puts and call options. Chances are I wouldn't leave my own country and even that is no guarantee looking at Detroit.
Dear hermanito de Allende (Presente!) la cordillera...
Oct 24th, 2015 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At (3) you write...:
“Due to bad credit ratings, Argentina currently is paying loan shark rates...”
At (18) you repeat...:
“... the long term results are a worthless international credit rating with Chinese loan shark terms. ”
Would you please inform me how high those supposed “Chinese Loan Shark Terms” you are mentioning, are?
I would luuuuuv to compare your info with the, readily available on Internet, official Chinese and Argentinean communiques on that matter...
Thanks in advance
El Think...
The people that really will suffer with long term economic punishment will be the Argentine people. (They already are...
#15 Chicureo
Oct 24th, 2015 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Singer and the other vultures originally offered to accept less than 100%, Argentina told him to go f~ck off. Not a wise thing to say to a billionaire with a 36 meter super yacht docked in Manhattan.”
#22 Chicureo
“You should read one of articles written about Paul Singer in WSJ or Forbes about his success rate. The “vulture” has made ENORMOUS profits by buying “worthless” financial instruments and recovering a large percentage of the face values.”
Through life, I have seen people divided along two clear-cut lines: those who will side with what they perceive to be the right side--even if they are weaker or poorer--and those who will stand with the wealthy and powerful no matter what.
Our esteemed Chilean friend Chicureo has long taken his side.
He sided and still sides with torturer, murderous tyrant Pinochet. (No doubt, a choice much safer at the time).
He also sides with rich and powerful, Republican Party donor Paul Singer.
Why, he's got “a 36 meter super yacht docked in Manhattan.”
The fact Singer et al schemes made them successful in siphoning millions from some of the poorest countries on Earth does not bother Chicureo at all.
Why? Because of his genuflect admiration for those with power and money, the “winners.”
Follow Chicureo's logic and note his own emphasized word:
“The 'vulture' has made ENORMOUS profits by buying 'worthless' financial instruments and recovering a large percentage of the face values.”
Apparently, the fact those profits were 'enormous' justifies the deed.
As they say: Every man has his price.
In Germany after the war you couldn't find anyone who had been a Nazis.
Oct 24th, 2015 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“As they say: Every man has his price.”
Oct 24th, 2015 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And South American milicos are dirt cheap...
THINK
Oct 24th, 2015 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dear Andean neighbor, as you very we'll know, lending to your country has been a losing proposition for many, including the 450,000 small Italian investors. Your beautiful nation is incredibly rich in resources, but has a history of nationalizing foreign companies that invested to produce these resources.
So, as usual, the country is permanently out of money and has been lumbering through various bouts of financial, economic, and social trouble.
In less than a year, Argentina has all but exhausted the roughly US$11 billion dollar-equivalent swap line with China. This foreign currency credit now makes up approximately 25% of Argentina’s reserves, and the government is looking to increase this amount even though Chinese Yuan can only be used to import goods from China — not to pay dollar-denominated debt or import from other countries.
The interest rates are above those of “ lenders of last resort”, your are obligated to purchase what they agree upon, Chinese worker employment preference, long term supply contracts at advantageous rates, confidential immediate payback.
And you ask me why is it I describe China as a loan shark?
@28. Were you replying to me? Then why didn't you identify how much of argieland's debt is attributable to the Junta? Where are we now? US$10 billion? And, if Scioli is to believed, argieland will pay up. Of course, if it doesn't, it will find itself being more isolated. After all, all very well saying ....FUCK YOU”@! but the world can teach argieland to be humble. Imagine the world telling argieland that whatever it wants it has it has to provide for itself. No exports. No imports. No investment. No communications.
Oct 25th, 2015 - 01:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The world just needs to understand that the majority of argies are just as corrupt and criminal as their government. We didn't believe ordinary “innocent” Germans after we crushed the nazis. We didn't believe ordinary Italians, even after they threw the fascists out. Germans and Italians and their co-belligerents had to be taught that we were better and couldn't be beaten. The argies need to be taught the same. And that they have to pay up. Or else!
That is actually difficult to find a clear distinction, or at least I didn't with a cursory search. There is little distinction between the junta's borrowings or the mis-management from 83 on. Either it's no hair off my ass.....I didn't invest in Argentina nor will I in Zimbabwe or North Korea. I am curious as to what province's you've been to to base that opinion on ALL Argentines?
Oct 25th, 2015 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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