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Scotland's Sturgeon admits second independence referendum “highly likely”
Scotland's first minister has said a second independence referendum is “highly likely” after the UK voted to leave the EU. Nicola Sturgeon said it was “democratically unacceptable” that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesWonder Woman is going to fix it.
Jun 24th, 2016 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Bye bye.
Jun 24th, 2016 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nicola Sturgeon , should go back to sleep and await to see what happens,
Jun 24th, 2016 - 11:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0to jump the gun to quickly is rather silly,
SCOTTISH Vote Leave chief Tom Harris has described Brexit as a “great opportunity” and predicted Remain voters north of the Border will soon see the “many benefits” of slashing ties with Brussels.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683265/Vote-Leave-boss-predicts-200m-Scots-Brexit-bonus
I guess if in the future Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU, the 16m+ Remainers could all settle in Scotland, and Edinburgh could become the financial capital of the world. We are moving into unchartered waters so anything could happen.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 07:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Make Britain Great again
Jun 25th, 2016 - 08:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ummm..highly likely in 2030
Jun 25th, 2016 - 09:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 4
Jun 25th, 2016 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Be rather cold for you though.
But only if she can get London to agree!
Jun 25th, 2016 - 11:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0I believe now that the UK has around two years to get out of the EU.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Scotland will have another Independence referendum within those two years. (has to, and our First Minister confirmed it yesterday)
Does anybody seriously thing the result will be to continue under Westminster rule?
9 - I don't.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I want Scotland to go independent. However, for the original independence referendum I said on here that unfortunately it wouldn't, and it didn't. Too bad.
This time however I'm going with 'yes it will'.
The original result was close, now with the brexit situation the result will make it over the line.
Not a single Scottish voting district voted leave.
Cameron didn't fulfill his pre indy-ref 1 hot air promises, Westminster shafted Scotland in the belief they could get one over and drive off.
Now they've hit an eu pothole and willay is comin doon the rood.
@7 What makes you think I would want to move to Scotland? I was making a general observation not a personal one.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 01:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think Scotland will get another referendum ….yet. And nothing major will happen outside the markets for a few years. It will be five years before we notice much difference and a lot of the Brexit voters will likely be dead by then.
@ 11 ElaineB
Jun 25th, 2016 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ah! Blame it on the old ones!
Just be careful that fate doesn't get you!
#11… but as tbey get older (and wiser) they become Brexit voters too. Some of my family moved from half a lifetime in Scotland to Southern England. They couldnt believe the massive improvement in climate. They will never go back to live in Scotland. Decent weather on the West Coast is accompanied by clouds of biting midges, you cannot live outside. Added to that its damp and dismal with harsh rainy winters.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps Wonder Woman has a plan for that too?
@12 Um, if you look at the voting statistics you will see I am using facts.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 02:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@9
Jun 25th, 2016 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0She did not say that she would have a referendum in two years, liar.
#13
Jun 25th, 2016 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well,from what I have seen recently, the weather in the S.Coast has not been all that brilliant. Up here we have had hardly any rain since April. Temperatures about 18/25 and I haven't had a midge bite yet !
#10
“and willay is comin doon the rood.” Can you supply a translation for this ?
You have no worthwhile input into Scottish affairs as your previous posts have shown. What makes YOU so knowledgeable on Scottish affairs ? Do you live in Scotland, are you being fed topics by a third columnist to run with ?
(3) Briton: I agree; If Scotland believes that it can function in a self-interested vacuum without the rest of the UK, then like some in the rest of the UK who think the same way, they not only do not know which side their bread is buttered, they have no idea of where that bread and butter comes from. The interactions and communications and trade are so interlinked not just for now but for the future.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 04:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A look at the map of the British Isles shows that none of us can live in splendid isolation. Fact.
If Scotland stay out of the EU, then surely they will get their fishing industry back? How much was that worth before 1973?
Jun 25th, 2016 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If Scotland go Independent (fine if they chose this),then they lose the Barnet formula. If they are expecting a lot of money from the EU, fine, but which cash cow is going to replace the UK in helping fund the EU? So without a cash cow to replace the UK, it figures that the EU budget (including Scotlands') would have to be cut. However I have never been against Scotland having independence if they wish, but unless the oil price rises dramatically, how are they going to replace the money from the Barnett formula to pay for everything.?
Also as mad as Trump seems, I get the impression he values (unlike Obarmy and Clinton) the relationship the USA have with the UK. He stated the special relationship with the UK as valid. And he credited the Leave voters. No sign of Trump putting the UK 'to the back of the queue'. And as mad as folks make him out to be, he seems to have a lot of voter support in the USA.
What's the betting (being a successful businessman-he is worth several billion), that he will value a UK that keeps onside with the USA, and Cameron, Trump's detractor, is now history.
If Trump becomes president and the UK are onside,(NATO ally, friend of the USA etc, )I'm willing to bet that he won't sit on the fence with Argentina over the Falklands either.
He might well support the Islanders.
And I'll bet that he will judge who is the best ally and partner, Spain or the UK, especially as Spain allows Russian warships in their ports, so don't expect him to back Spain over Gibraltar either.
If Clinton gets in, she'll put the UK at the back of the queue as Obarmy again has.
Back to the point, will Scotland really prosper by leaving the UK to join Europe, and will that not give Catalonia a case for independence if the EU accept Scotland?
Clyde 15 please advise as I am no expert on Scotland.
Dealing with Scotland is always a thorny subject,
Jun 25th, 2016 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but may I suggest to the SNP government,
Why would you give up a democratic union,
for an undemocratic union that is unelectable and irremovable.
just my opinion.
16 - yes. Willy is coming down the road. Its an analogy, based on the Simpsons character 'groundskeeper Willy'.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It suggests that Scotland will take its revenge on the Tory government that both took Scotland out of the EU, and bullshitted Scots into voting no in 2014.
I see Sturgeon is on the guardian front page. Scotlands no happy.
The UK is en route to breaking up. Enjoy.
There will be rancor; losers and winners, it's always the same, but the UK will survive in one form or another. A lot of people like me have Welsh, Scots and Irish relatives, and we aren't falling out because some of us voted differently to others; we want to work for a better environment; improve and help across our differences. and we haven't lost our sense of humour...the latter is essential.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunately for Nichola Scotland cannot survive economically it relys on English taxpayers to pay for its public services. Scots know that and even if she does go for another referendum the answer will be no to independence. The EU wont bail Scotland out or let it join the Euro. The UK will survive.
Jun 25th, 2016 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Welsh, Scots and Irish relatives, and we aren't falling out because some of us voted differently
Jun 25th, 2016 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We all have different opinions,
but we are all in this together,
as you say, we will survive and succeed and grow,
we are British , our history is intertwined the British have seen it all,
been their , done it and worn the badge,
we have seed good and bad things, been through hell and back,
two wars countless conflicts and still we come through,
have confidence in our country,
and we will all come through this all ok,
and let them, come to us.
13
Jun 26th, 2016 - 12:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Decent weather on the West Coast is accompanied by clouds of biting midges”
...shut it...you obviously know nothing about Scotland or midges...
The midges are absent in decent weather...
The do not come out in direct sunlight...the sun dries out their tiny wings and they fall out of the air...
The hot weather we have been experiencing also dries the ground where the midge grub exists just below the surface...they need damp conditions to move through the soil...it wipes out billions...
Also ElaineB specifically mentioned Edinburgh...there are no midges in Edinburgh...
They like damp undrained ground...
There is an inch less rain per mile from West to East...
So shut it...ignorant peasant...
BTW.....there is not one single person that I have met, would want the Euro as their currency....
I do believe that it is mandatory for new members...
At the moment Scotland is part of the UK. I would suggest that if Nicola wants to stay in the EU she would have to call a referendum first to devolve from the UK. ( At the moment they are in the EU with the UK ) Being independent would revoke the “ Barnet Formula ” therefore no money from the UK government and they would be on their own. ( Would the Bank of England come to the rescue of Scotland when Scotland uses the Euro ? ) How long would Scotland survive without the handouts from the UK government? Incidently most people are saying that the EU funds certain projects, incorrect as we ( the UK ) put more money into the EU than we take out. Therefore the money that Scotland gets is actually money from the UK. I don't see Nicola asking the Scots to become independent without getting some sort of agreement with Brussels.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 06:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0The EU have already told her it is not so much HER deciding if she wants to join (if Scotland were to gain independence) but whether or not THEY want Scotland.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 08:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Honestly, the people asking for a second referendum on Brexit need to give up and grow up. We voted. Like it or not we have to live with the consequences. That's democracy.
It is time we moved on, the referendum is so last year now. I understand that the next SNP leader in Scotland is called Tina Minnow.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 09:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Great if Scotland goes. One less costly thorn to worry about. England needs to be adsptible, agile, flexible.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0It is a highly driven, business oriented country.
Scotland is simply not. Its an oil dependent, England dependant, public sector oriented minor economy. England can replace the output of Scotland in about 7 years.
Its Scotland's big risk.
It is interesting hearing “experts” on this forum with their own crystal balls proclaiming what will happen during “Brexit”negotiations and a “possible” - not probable - Scottish referendum.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0I was listening to Jim Sillars on BBC Scotland this morning. He used to live down the road from me and was one of the leaders for Scottish Independance.
He fell out with the current leadership and voted to leave the EU.
His argument was why get sovereignty from the UK and then hand it over to Brussels, giving us 1/28th of a say on EU policy.
As to a referendum, he said that there were two things standing in the way of this.
1) Only the UK Parliament can grant this.
2) Nowhere in the SNP manifesto before the last election did they say that they would go for a new referendum. I am no expert on manifesto pledges but he is ,
so I take his word for it.
On a different tack, he mentioned how workers would lose their holiday entitlements, sickness benefits, employment protection on leaving the EU.
He pointed out that the UK HAD these benefits before they became law in the EU. The only way we would lose them is if a right wing conservative govt. repealed the laws.
Another one he mentioned was protection of workers rights.
The Finish company Viking wanted to reflag it's vessel in Estonia and employ an Estonian crew at a much lower wage level.
Case C-438/05 International Transport Workers' Federation & The Finnish Seamen's Union v. Viking Line.
“The Court held that the threat of strike action by a trade union to force an employer to conclude a collective agreement the terms of which are liable to deter it from exercising freedom of establishment constitutes a restriction on that freedom prohibited by Article 43 EC.”
So much for workers rights in the EU. Business profits take priority.
One point that nobody has made is that Parliament will be so busy trying to unscramble the EU legislation that almost no work can be done on the basics of running the country.
@ 14 ElaineB
Jun 26th, 2016 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Um, if you look at the voting statistics you will see I am using facts.”
Unfortunately, the only statistics used by the press are ALL based on a YouGov poll of 5,500 sample size, distribution not given (if they even collected it) apart from the fact THEY EXCLUDED LONDON (in the graphs)..
This from “The Economist” which I gave up my subscription 30 years ago because they kept getting things badly wrong.
”The data suggest age is the primary cleavage in the electorate (see chart 2). Looking specifically at middle-class adults with an A-level education, 70% of 18-24 year-olds in the English hinterland are expected to vote to “remain”, compared with just 30% of adults over 65 in the same region. Overall, however, these trends broadly cancel each other out. The demographic breakdown of the undecided suggests that, just like voters who do express a preference, they are split right down the middle. If YouGov’s sample weights are correct, then a 50-50 breakdown of “don’t knows” would be consistent with a three percentage-point victory for “leave”. (Although the polling averages have shifted towards “remain” in the past week,“
What a pity they put the last bit in, they would have been much closer the 3.8% convincing win result.
So 5 years on 65 YO means ”It will be five years before we notice much difference and a lot of the Brexit voters will likely be dead by then.”
As I have just turned 70 I should get the box ready then? Statistically, the sample size (being my family records) gives me to 78 / 79. But it could be less or even greater, the standard deviation is of necessity (given the sample size) being a little larger than I am used to.
At 26 final paragraph: I see we can agree on things.
Give yourself a few years and you will not be so easily taken in by these 'statistics'. YouGov polls are notoriously weak due to the fact that all the sample are computer literate and have access to the equipment (or a phone in some minor cases).
@29
Jun 26th, 2016 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I find myself agreeing with you completely. If the EU tell Sturgeon that there is no conversation between them until they are independent from the UK and apply to become a member, then Scottish independence is finished.
1. They would have to leave the UK with their share of UK debt
2. They definitely will not be using the pound and will f=be forced to use the euro
3. They definitely cannot rely on North Sea oil revenue
4. There definitely will be a land border between Scotland and UK
5. They will have to pay a massive EU membership fee every month as and when they were able to join which could be years, they would also have to pay for EU bail out packages to the bankrupt economies of EU.
6. Barnett formula gone.
7. They would have one of the smallest voices in the EU as it is possible to be.
That is a a pretty hard sell to Scotland, it would be a hard to sell to any people
@31 Britworker
Jun 26th, 2016 - 01:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“That is a a pretty hard sell to Scotland, it would be a hard to sell to any people”
Quite right EXCEPT you have an awful lot of dead-headed Scots whose ONLY object in life is to have an 'independent' Scotland at any price. We have our own example on here with EscoSes Doido!
Now that's fine by me as long as they pick up all the tab of doing so, but the track record to date is not encouraging.
Wonder Woman has been on TV further alienating tbe English. Clouds of midges on tbe banks of Holy Loch and Scots look on wistfully as the rest of the UKs home teams compete in Europe. Nice.. Glasto in the sunshine, Wimbledon next week… Henley… , Guards Polo.. Salt Spring Island… aaah
Jun 26th, 2016 - 02:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What a lolfest.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you Nigel.
#33
Jun 26th, 2016 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Glasto in the sunshine...you mean the annual mudfest !
Wimbledon..what English player are you cheering on to win ?
Henley ? A crowd of hooray Henrys in striped blazers and straw hats. I am sure there will be a rush from the English plebs to view that.
Scots looking wistfully at the competition in Europe and betting when England get dumped and jealous that they cannot trash up French towns like the English supporters.
Anyway, we have the Open Golf at Troon shortly....... a civilized sport.
A snobfest in England. egalitarian in Scotland.
Just think for £349 you can have 1 nights B&B and a bargain rate of £195 for a round on the Ailsa course OR a week in a five star hotel in Cyprus.
I don't play golf any more.
The EU have told the Scottish Hag that Scotland and / or the MSP's CANNOT overturn the referendum as she so boldly proclaimed.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I take it that this Hag is on a 'substance' that makes her behave like a bat-shit mad person?
They say 1.5 million voted to remain,
Jun 26th, 2016 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 02 million voted to remain part of this union,
predicting the future is not easy,
nothing but cries and howls ,
give this a chance to work,
if this or future governments run this country properly and fairly,
and improve the live of all, then this will help to eliminate the frustrations of the people,
and perhaps no one will want to leave,
two years, we can at least wait two years,
after all we let Europe run us for over 40 years.
just my opinion.
@30 What is wrong with you. Do you spend hours trying to disprove every post I make? Why? Is it that obsession again? You are so wrong but then you don't live here so it must be hard for you getting accurate information. If you choose not to believe the facts, I don't give a flying one.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why so sensitive about your age. I made a general comment. (A true comment) It was not about you. Why do you think my posts are all about you? Narcissist much.
£349? Do you get deep fried Mars bars for breakfast? Who owns Troon? I have hacked divots at St A, left my mark. The midges and hairy knees, couldnt stand it.
Jun 26th, 2016 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Liar...There are no midges at St. Andrews.....
Jun 26th, 2016 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#39
Jun 27th, 2016 - 11:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0I omitted to say that I was talking about Trumpton -(Trump Turnberry)
For that price you could possibly get a brace of them.
I have only been in the Hotel once when I had to check and authorise and sign off a repayment of £4 million VAT for work on Hotel improvements.
They were very nice to me...I wonder why ?
They kindly put me in one of the suites and plied me with coffee and cakes...even a bowl of macadamia nuts. I declined the offer of lunch as that was disallowed under Civil Service rules applicable to the plebs. Anyway, I had sandwiches and a pair of binoculars with me and preferred doing a bit of feathered bird watching from the lighthouse.
As to who owns Royal Troon. I don't know. I presume it is the members.
As far as I know, to play the course, you must be signed in by a member.
The R.&A rent the course and facilities from the club for a tidy sum.
@ 38 ElaineB
Jun 27th, 2016 - 02:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“What is wrong with you.”(?)
I dislike incorrect statements such as those you made when the facts can easily be determined: it took me
@42 My facts are correct. That you cannot verify it is irrelevant.
Jun 27th, 2016 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The fact that you focus so much on my posts is not normal.
@40 Not in St Andrews, thats in the East. You Argies know little about Scotch geography. Do try to keep up. How are tbe midges right now? Fancy a BBQ and lots of bites?
Jun 30th, 2016 - 02:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well it seems to be open season now for Culicoides impunctatus. I was at the Cloch lighthouse opposite Dunoon yesterday and the little bu***ers were voracious. After 5 minutes I had had enough and departed for the Cardwell garden centre for a coffee.
Jun 30th, 2016 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@31, 32
Jun 30th, 2016 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would be revolted if I was Scottish reading this. So it's OK for England to do Harakiri from the EUians JUST FOR THE PRINCIPLE OF SOVEREIGNTY (which is what has happened, as you had no plan post-EU and the EU seems increasingly likely to be very tough on you... plus you lost forever all the special concessions from the EU)... but the Scots should make no such massive considerations or they would be deemed daft?
So which one is it, extinguish the yearning of freedom to subordinate it to sublunary financial considerations and be deemed “sane”?
Or grab freedom by the horns and be deemed “dead-headed”?
What arrogance and conceit from these ENGLISH-ANGLOS.
The EU leave vote was a monumental mistake, from the sanity point of view. Not because leaving the EU per say is bad, but leaving the EU at ANY cost is bad. Which is what you have done: no plan post-EU so your policy planning is basically nill for the next few years, no apparent consideration about all the hard-won special treatment towards the UK which you have now lost forever (so really now going back to the EU makes NO SENSE AT ALL), no thinking over of the economic damage, because many Anglos have this ridiculous warped view the EU and UK are equal in strength, or even the inverse. They live in fantasy world.
The UK should have stayed in and enjoyed the many special treatments from no Schengen, to no Euro, to no justice court, to preferential rebates, and still have no-tariff access. All it took was to swallow a little jingoism. You guys couldn't and now you will see what happens when a developed economy so dependent on free-flow of capital decides to withdraw from the river.
The Scots should be sure to note that all these people saying Scotland cannot survive outside the UK, that they depend on England, are for sure only concerned about their JINGOISM, in the end they don't want to see little England, Scotland offers a shield from irrelevance. They care not an iota about Scotland.
Totally wrong [ Again ]
Jul 01st, 2016 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0no one is forcing Scotland to do anything,
this was a UK vote not a Scottish or Irish or English or welsh vote,
they voted to leave full stop
that is Democracy , take it or leave it,
Democracy or dictatorship.
Nicola Sturgeon legitimised the referendum by actively campaigning in Scotland and England , she also attended TV and paper interviews,
and actively took a full part in the referendum.
thanks.
Nicola conveniently overlooks the results of the UK referendum WITHOUT the Scottish leave vote !
Jul 01st, 2016 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All I can say is that it is one God-almighty mess. Nobody seems to have a clue as to what they are doing. The leave camp won by promising things that they cannot deliver. The remain camp promised much of the same with no change to immigration. The SNP leadership are like a dog chasing it's tail.
Jul 02nd, 2016 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0At present we have no effective government and no effective opposition.
All we have left is to cheer on Wales in the football and hope Andy Murray can win Wimbledon again
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