MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Spontaneous ovation and acknowledgement for Malvinas veterans during Bicentenary celebrations
Malvinas veterans received a huge ovation and applause when they marched in Buenos Aires closing the main parade that concluded two days of festivities and speeches across Argentina to celebrate the bicentennial of the country's declaration of independence on 9 July 1816. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesSorry? Didn't they LOSE? More troops, more equipment, more supplies, more aircraft and they LOST!
Jul 11th, 2016 - 11:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0The Falkland Islands are BRITISH! And will remain so until the Islanders choose independence. But they will STILL be allies. Britain already has the equipment to reinforce the Islands by air. Crossing the Atlantic in hours instead of the 1982 weeks. And an airbase perfectly sited for bombing missions over the local continent. Cruise missiles, drones, torpedos.
Continuing with the delusions, pathetic.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 01. “Sorry? Didn't they LOSE?”
Jul 11th, 2016 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0what does it have to do? They fought bravely and deserve respect.
Yes, they died well (though they didn't fight well).
Jul 11th, 2016 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@3 “ They fought bravely and deserve respect.”
Jul 11th, 2016 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina surrendered in just a few weeks, to a much smaller force, and whose ground forces were poorly and pathetically managed.
In the South Georgias, Argentina surrendered without firing a shot.
At Pebble Island, 45 British troops took on about 150 Argies and destroyed 11 Argie aircraft without losing a single troop. The Argies were.... caught sleeping. Pathetic leadership.
At Goose Green, about 1000 well-supplied and dug-in Argies surrendered to fewer than 500 British troops, when the defenders theoretically enjoyed a 3-to-1 advantage. Pathetic performance on the part of the Argies.
And yet they celebrate.
They weren't brave, they weren't cowards, just a lot of young men placed into an impossible situation by their Government and decades of indoctrination. Ill-equipped, ill-led and without the justification of legality.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina was never going to win.
Do they still march “con los rabos entre las piernas”?
Jul 11th, 2016 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@1 and @5
Jul 11th, 2016 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your posts contradicts the comments and reports of the british soldiers about the resistance of the argentine army, navy and air force personnel. So, I would prefer to trust on those who fought that war.
By the way...Where were you at the time of the war? Confortable and warm at home no doubt. So, try to act manly and respect those who were sent to fight not matter the country they were fighting for. Both, British and Argentine soldiers deserve a little of respect from you, sedentary, confortable and mediocre people.
British soildiers died fighting against other soldiers.
Those Argy “soldiers” should be grateful that they are still living.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If they had come up against Russian, Chinese and even.....US troops most them would have been “killed in action” or “shot trying to escape”.
Your Comment
Jul 11th, 2016 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@8 Pgerman
Some Argentine soldiers fought bravely, some didn’t.
Some defended their ground, some didn’t.
“Both, British and Argentine soldiers deserve a little of respect” – yes I agree 100%.
That being said it is then a pity that the Argentine Government, then, since and now and large parts of the Argentine people then, since and now cannot or will not show the same respect to those people whose lives were so cruelly interrupted i.e. the Falkland Islanders.
Until such times as the Argentine Government and people apologise to the Falkland Islanders and to the kith and kin of those who fought and died there because of Argentine imperial pretensions then you cannot be surprised by any lack of respect.
@8 Probably more of a soldier than you, pgerman: I spent more than 20 years under arms, including active fighting in Southwest Asia. I was in Air Defence work during the 1982 Falklands war but out of theatre. Then later into field artillery, in the snow and mud and sleepless nights of extended fire missions and so on. And then command staff in another war zone until retirement. Much more seasoned and experienced military veteran than you, little pgerman. So let me repeat the earlier points: the Argie ground forces leadership and management during the Falklands war were pathetic and incompetent. Even the argie “excombatientes” have publicly noted that, though it was obvious to everyone. Didn't the those brave estado mayor officers keep the bulk of the rations around Stanley and not distributed to the line troops? Didn't the line officers abuse and torture their own troops freezing in their trenches? Didn't the argie officers beg to the British to let them keep their sidearms after their surrender, knowing that the line troops would (justifiably) exact reprisals against their own officers?
Jul 11th, 2016 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And did we mention that the mighty Argentine navy largely cowered in port?
And who among you wrote,“ ”Malvinas es la única guerra del mundo donde murieron los soldados y se rindieron todos los generales, almirantes, brigadieres, coroneles, vicealmirantes, contraalmirantes, mayores, capitanes, sargentos, cabos primeros”
Time for you to re-read the Rattenbach report, pgerman. And the nature of the failure, and the surrender.
4 chronic (#) 5 Marti Llazo 6 Roger Lorton (#) 7 gordo1 9 Englander (#)
Jul 11th, 2016 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your comments show clearly what kind of “people” you are.
I agree 100% with 8 pgerman (#).
@11
Jul 11th, 2016 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are so pathetic. An argentine Navy submarine was able to break the RN defenses, operate without being discovered and even attack the fleet with a conventional submarine. Was the crew coward?
Some argentine ships kept on operating quite close to the RN no matter the risks. Some of these operation claim the lives of plenty of sailors...Take ARA Sobral as an example. Was the crew coward?
ARA infantry took part in some battles. Were they cowards?
By the way, have you been checking figures to give support that “only soldiers were killed”? Since all statistics showed just the opposite....
If the Argentine soldiers were as cowardly you mentioned it is very difficult to justify the cost, British lives, that the recovery claimed. So based on your comments it was a sort of “teenage girls” team killing British marine commandos, parachutists. This doesn’t speak well from the British heroes. You might think a little before writing things that you cannot defend.
Any way, if you stayed “at home” comfortable while others were risking their lives the least think you must do is to respect them. No matter the side they were fighting for. This is a basic rule among honorable people.
I really don’t believe you but your fault is even more serious since you mention you were a professional soldier….
@13
Jul 11th, 2016 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Didn't the Argentine navy flee back to port when we destroyed the Belgrano, I don't recall any search for survivors taking place, also didn't they leave their conscripts on the Falklands for months after the war and Falkland Islanders whose properties were defacated in were left to look after them and feed them and clothe them.
I certainly don't see anything whatsoever to celebrate their illegal invasion of peaceful people at all, it's all very inglorious in my opinion
“An argentine Navy submarine was able to break the RN defenses”
Jul 11th, 2016 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And caused absolutely no damage. While almost the entire fleet remained in port after 02 May 1982.
--------
“only soldiers were killed”?
-- Never heard any such thing. Is this an argie invention?
-----
”If the Argentine soldiers were as cowardly ...“
Read my words, pibe, and stay on point. I faulted the ground forces leadership. It was incompetent. Every postwar assessment points this out. Even the argie analyses.
----
”....you must do is to respect them. No matter the side they were fighting for. “
-- At some point you must acknowledge that the argie invasion in 1982 was a criminal act of unlawful aggression against a neighbouring territory, denounced by the same UN that Argentina is always trying to hide behind . Until you understand this -- and there is reason to believe that you never will - there is no point discussing matters of ”honour.”
“Didn't the Argentine navy flee back to port when we destroyed the Belgrano”,
Jul 11th, 2016 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0FALSE STATEMENT. Plenty of ships kept on operating either in the islands or close to them.
“I don't recall any search for survivors taking place” ANOTHER FALSE STATEMENT. Lots of planes and ships searched for the survivors.
“didn't they leave their conscripts on the Falklands for months after the war and Falkland Islanders whose properties were defacated in” I don't know, but the last days of the conflict where within the limits of Post Stanley so, it might happened, that argentine soldiers were pushed by british ones to end fighting in town.
“peaceful people at all, it's all very inglorious in my opinion”? It is not a matter of peaceful people. It is a matter of sovereignty over the islands between two countries. It is not a personal issue.
Just as a matter of interest, was there any“veterans” under the age of 48 years in this march ?
Jul 11th, 2016 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What was the result of the attack on the British fleet ? Did it fire it's torpedoes and hit anything ?
The heroic shadowing of the British fleet by an Argentian COMMERCIAL airliner.
The attacking and bombing of an unarmed merchant ship in the Atlantic by a
C-130.
The laying of minefields, holding civilian population hostage and trashing their homes. Yes, something to be proud of !
'....But the most emotive moment was when the Malvinas veterans marched closing the parade. Some in uniform, others in plain clothes but all displaying medals, flags reading “Malvinas Argentinas”
Jul 11th, 2016 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry to disappoint you vets but the Falklands have never legally belonged to Argentina: https://www.academia.edu/17799157/Falklands_-_Some_Relevant_International_Law
@15 and @17
Jul 11th, 2016 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So based on your comnents breaking the RN defenses, attaking them and leaving the area seemed to be an “easy task”. No courage, no skill was needed......I doesn't deserve wasting any additional words.
There were plenty of brilliant and courageous tasks carried on by the ARA.
As regards the civilians let me repit the words of a british journalist: “the very few civilians that resulted killed were due to british forces actions after all” (with this last comment I don't wnat to offend, or hurt, anyone whose relatives were killed in the war). So, it didn't seem to be a nazi ocupation against civilians.
@8. I'm sure that, during WW2, some British troops said the same about the Italians. You know, they of the tanks with ONE forward gear and FOUR reverse. It's hard to be objective when the bullets have been flying. Why don't you read the comment @5? It's all true.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 08,000 miles from home and with no land base, British armed forces faced an enemy only 400 miles away. Did you see the supplies and reinforcements being constantly ferried to the British forces? I didn't. But the argies were flying both in every day. How many did the Brits really beat? 11,000, 12,000? With just 5,000. Remember all those lovely aeroplanes? You lost 100 to “enemy” action. British aircraft lost to enemy combat action? NIL! “Brave” pilots, okay. But stupid as well.
How do you call “soldiers” sent to make an illegal invasion, an illegal occupation and an illegal war, brave. They were just stupid. How many were abused by their own “officers” and were glad to surrender?
How dismissive you are of the comment @14. IF any argie vessels operated, they were boats. Remember the argie tug painted with the ICRC symbol whilst carrying out spy missions? Remember the argie artillery positioned between occupied civilian homes? A war crime if ever there was one.
We know you left a load of troops behind to guard against Chile. Just shows how many enemies you had and have.
Explain the difference between argie troops and the SS, the Waffen SS, the Einsatzgruppen and the Gestapo!
@20
Jul 11th, 2016 - 06:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Boats?...yes a conventional submarine, ARA Sobral, etc..you ignore all about the war.
Conqueror, we know each other quite well, you are just a “keyboard” warrior.
I won't waste my time on you (I must recongnize that some times you made me laugh though).
@20 “Explain the difference between argie troops and the SS....”
Jul 11th, 2016 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Germans had generally effective leadership. The Argentines had Argentine leadership.
The submarine in question was the ARA San Louis IIR .
Jul 11th, 2016 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It launched torpedoes twice against ships operating close to the islands,not the main fleet.
The German torpedoes malfunctioned both times and the boat a U-209 type escaped when counter attacked.
Again IIR the problems where a faulty guidance computer and broken wires.
The RN had similar problems with wire guided torpedoes at the time.HMS Conqueror used ancient strait running burner cycle torpedoes to sink Belgrano.
To operate submarines you have to be brave.
THE ANGUISH OF THE SEPOYS.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If there is something characteristic of the president, and of his team of ceos, is their great coherence. For somebody who said that we must pay the vultures all what Griesa determines, instead of defending the two debt restructurings (Macri), or for someone like minister Prat Gay, who apologized before some spanish businessmen, for the renationalizations of aerolineas argentinas and ypf, when actually they should have apologized us for having had such a shameful behaviour, or for somebody who didn't even have enough dignity to defend our fragata libertad, held in Ghana by an adict judge to the vulture funds, and who just proposed to make a national collect in order to recover it, with all these antecedents, in some way it was obvious that he was going to think that our men who declared the independence, must have felt ''anguish'' for braking the colonial entaills with Spain. For sepoys like these ones, there is nothing more convenient than economic dependence, perhaps, for all these reasons, the main guest invited by the government for our celebration, was the ex representant of a decadent monarchy, which used to submit us 200 years ago.
Anyway, this country is full of sepoys, in fact, argentina has a long story of degradating genuflexion, that's why in just a few opportunities in 200 years, the country could be a sovereign nation which wasn't submitted to the caprices of the different world powers.
On the other hand, the only one good thing of this pathetic context, is that despite the misserable moment that we are going through, because of the regressive and reactionary measures taken by Macri's administration , a lot of people took the streets to honour our country, as far as i'm concerned, i also made a homage for my dear nation.
@22
Jul 11th, 2016 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentine troops fought against british soldiers. They didn't kill, nor fight, against civlians.
Nazi SS soldiers fought against enemy soldiers and civilians.
British troops fought against argentine soldiers but killed their own civilians.
They say, its the thought that counts,
Jul 11th, 2016 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina thought abt it,
And still lost.
Interesting discussion.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fact is, the action to get back Malvinas was a desperate act of a bunch of murderers clinging to power, the Argentina military junta, which showed in the way soldiers were equipped and (mis) treated by their officers.
For then British PM Margaret Thatcher it was the perfect occasion to flex her muscle and show the world the Iron Lady she was--and she did.
But a war is not a game--it shows the best and the worst in human beings. As usual, there were both despicable and heroic actions on both sides, and as in any war, fighters from both sides lost life, limb and mental health.
Really, no sense in bragging--for either side.
I would also have to add that no matter the respect that I feel for the argentine vets most of them returned home ideologically radicalized.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some even followed nazi ideas and were against any peaceful arragement. Others even were transformed in religious fanatics against any secular kind of government.
Another group, subsidized by CFK worked as “war veterans” that wear false uniforms (regular argentine army and navy soldiers didn't wear camo uniforms at that time) and wear false decorations.
Other, the mayority started with their life as regular argentine citizens. I met some of them several times. No ideology, no extreme ideas, no make up..just regular people.
these soldiers without military training as some say, their knees to the Brits forces , must ask for help from the US and chile to change the situation and yet almost fail , ships 30 million was down with airplanes without system and only 3 million dollars , I wonder who won the war from the economic pespectiva ?. just need a few more years for the > Kelpers come to ask Argentina “ collaboration ” without the collaboration Argentina never be able to exploit existing oil ... there ... there nucho resentful , hurt but we can ask contaminated minds by hatred and alcohol ... I think there are very good and intelligent people in the Islands ... and it's just not participating in the pathetic and belligerent speeches. When they go to grow! his mind is an island. unfortunately isolated from reality.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 025 Disgraceful comment.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentine Fascist government, by their actions, put civilians in danger.
The very civilians you do not regard as people and state are not worthy of self determination.
You are simply a fascist trying to glory in imagined Argentine heroics when in general all they did was bring dishonour to themselves and their Country.
Argentina was humiliated in front of the rest of the World. You were just fortunate that it was British soldiers, sailors and airmen that beat Argentina's Armed forces into submission. Not many Militaries would have been so merciful when Argentina raised the white flag and surrendered.
Stop trying to rewrite history .....it won't wash.
@ 24
Jul 11th, 2016 - 09:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Axle: It's really very simple. But it looks like we have to go over this with you again.
1. Observe your contracts and pay your debts and you won't need to worry about the Griesas of this world. In fact, if you pay your fees for the little camporista sailboat that had to be rescued and moored in the Falkland Islands, you might even get that back.
2. Stop stealing the pensions of your residents and the holdings of privately held service providers, substituting “nationalisation” for “theft,” and in a dozen generations you can start dreaming of someday maybe being acceptable in polite company.
3. Get over the idea that “sovereign nation” means that you can lie to everyone and avoid your lawful contractual obligations when the next Botox Queen wants to stir up a little counterproductive NAC/POP delusion.
4. Think twice before planning to invade the neighbours, be they British, friendly to the British, or indifferent to the British. Because the next time they might not be so kind and understanding, and may instead boot your sorry arse from here to Friday.
5. Argentina is not a world power, nor a regional leader. Get over it. It's a perpetually corrupt and bankrupt bean-growing País de Cuarto that couldn't even design a little motor for its native Justicialista sedan, and put the imported engine into the sports model backwards. For all your illusions of mastery you're really only going to pay your debts by assembling the widgets (under foreign supervision) that the Big Dogs have more expertly designed, and by growing the GMO beans provided to you by the developed world.
If only the Falkland invaders had fought as bravely as their defenders here on mercopress do for them.
Jul 11th, 2016 - 11:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#31 Marti
Jul 12th, 2016 - 12:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hear, hear the stern lecturer finally come up with The High Principles of a Happily Dependent Country:
1. Kneel before the vultures of the world--give them what they want (as Macri finally did) and perhaps they will be magnanimous.
2. Privatize pensions 'cause it will allow juicy profits for the smart corporations that get it. And while you are at it, privatize energy, transport, utilities, etc. I mean, who can dream of a business with captive customers, therefore no competition, no advertising costs, etc.?
3. Get over the idea that you are a sovereign nation--dependency and neo-colonialism is the most you can aspire to have.
4. Be nice to your neighbours. (We are. We almost got into war with Chile--and did it with the U.K.--only when illegally governed by a bunch of murderers illegally in power but recognized by the international community).
5. Again, just to make it clear. You are nothing, understand? Nothing! You know nothing and depend on us to teach you how to “assembly the widgets.” Oh, and you need to lower your wages--you earn too much--and be done with ridiculous unions and safety standards that hurt profits.
Epilogue: Ahhh feels soo good to be so smart. This morning I felt my dark basement a bit depressing but now I feel on top of the world! Pass on the vodka, dear.
@10 darragh: “Until such times as the Argentine Government and people apologise to the Falkland Islanders and to the kith and kin of those who fought and died there because of Argentine imperial pretensions then you cannot be surprised by any lack of respect.”
Jul 12th, 2016 - 02:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0@33 ”We almost got into war with Chile--and did it with the U.K.--only when illegally governed by a bunch of murderers illegally in power but recognized by the international community). ”
Jul 12th, 2016 - 03:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am still laughing over this one. Actually laughing at the rest of them as well but particularly this one.
Argentina's military government, which had been murdering tens of thousands of Argentines and others during the 1970s, was planning a multi-front invasion of Chile in 1978, not because Chile also had a military government very much like Argentina's military government, but because Argentina's imperial expansionist military government wished to seize still more Chilean territory, only this time in the form of three islands, two of which had characteristically British names: Picton and Lennox, which of course should be returned to the UK.
But after the murdering AR criminal Videla realised that Chile would beat the bejezzus out of the Argentine military, the argies put off their invasion of that neighbour in favour of, well, invading another neighbour: the Falkland Islands. But Argentina was planning to revisit their plans to invade Chile after all, following their doubtlessly successful invasion of the neighbouring Falklands.
So almost everyone came out the better for the resounding and humiliating defeat of the argies in 1982. The islanders got their islands back. Chile had less to worry about in the way of yet another argie plan to invade their territory. And the brutal, murderous, expansionist, imperial argie military government gave way the following year to the return of democracy to Argentina.
Meanwhile, the Chilean military government developed a brilliantly successful economic model that eventually became the envy of the region, which today provides chilenos with vastly higher per-capita income than Argentina, while Argentina effortlessly descended into a long spiral of economic instability and heavy indebtedness which continues to this day.
@35 Marti Llazo
Jul 12th, 2016 - 10:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0What a hammer blow that is! A very good and precise precis of events!
Congratulations!
@15:
Jul 12th, 2016 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0“-- At some point you must acknowledge that the argie invasion in 1982 was a criminal act of unlawful aggression against a neighbouring territory, denounced by the same UN that Argentina is always trying to hide behind . Until you understand this -- and there is reason to believe that you never will - there is no point discussing matters of ”honour.””
A fair point.
On the discussion of respecting the veterans of the failed invasion of the Falklands: Certainly, the soldiers who fight for your country should be respected and revered.
We give respect to all of our veteran soldiers and dead soldiers every year. Even Germany gives respect to their soldiers of WW2.
However, you don't see Germans waving flags celebrating the “recovery” of Poland or Czechoslovakia, claiming they still belong to Germany, or playing The Badonviller-Marsch to accompany a parade.
It's not the celebration of veterans that most people object to, rather that it's used to reinforce the false claim that sent those veterans to another nation's sovereign territory. That's an insult, both to the veterans and the innocent people oppressed by the actions provoked by such lies.
Might want to look to the German example instead of those who fled to SA when they lost the war. Just saying.
Reekie and pgerman deliberately misconstrued the comments, as is their customary manner. At no time did I belittle the courage of line troops, though if they had actually read my words rather than scribbled from their preconceived argento imaginings they would observed that. My criticism, and it is a reflection of the analyses of nearly every qualified spectator, is that the Argentine leadership up to and during the 1982 war was abysmally incompetent. Incompetence is one of the more charitable descriptions of Argentine leadership.
Jul 12th, 2016 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A splendid example of the nature of Argentina's military leadership might be found in the famous photo of the sinking of the Belgrano. The naval officer who took the photo reportedly turned it over to his superior. The news and the image were considered military secrets at the time. But that higher ranking officer immediately and secretly sold the photo to a Western news agency for a princely sum. The photographer gained nothing at the time from what the Argie media later characterised as a stolen photo. Theft. Such was the Argentine military leadership. Léalo y llore: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1461073-la-foto-robada-que-hizo-historia
That much aside, Argentina has clearly not learned much from its obstinate admiration for mistakes. It remains one of the best examples of “my country, right or wrong” being the equivalent of “my mother, drunk or sober.”
37 lol
Jul 12th, 2016 - 02:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Massive fail.
Don't ever try to assert the equivalency of the blood of invaders and oppressors with that of liberators.
Bad hun!
What is most chicken shit amongst the German rank and file is the universal denial.
Where did you think all the Jews disappeared to? Miami?
Did you think the Roma all left for Hungary?
Brave soldiers indeed matched with horse cavalry in Poland or cruise ships in the Atlantic.
37. Death to all tyrants and them that serve them.
@38
Jul 12th, 2016 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“We give respect to all of our veteran soldiers and dead soldiers every year. Even Germany gives respect to their soldiers of WW2.
However, you don't see Germans waving flags celebrating the “recovery” of Poland or Czechoslovakia, claiming they still belong to Germany, or playing The Badonviller-Marsch to accompany a parade”....this is the key point:
WW2 settled plenty of differencies in Europe and the entire World. But the FI issue is still pending. This is not my opinion is the reality.
I always say the very same, the solution of the dispute is still pending that's the reason why Argentina and the UK cannot make progress in their mutual relationship.
Argentina defeated Brasil in a war in the battlefield but, finally, by incompetence, lost the political dispute.
As Argentina against Brasil the UK won the war in the battlefield but, from my point of view, lost the political dispute. The UK lost plenty of material, resources and some of their best people to be at the very same “starting point” of the dispute. Who on the hell fights and wins a war to end not being able to impose conditions and to make its influence greater than it previously was?
See the influence of the USA in Europe and the World after WW2. Or the influence of the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe after WW2. Compare it to the UK in the South Atlantic. It is quite clear that the position of the UK in the region is weaker than it was until 1981.
@40 pgerman
Jul 12th, 2016 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The 'Falklands issue' is not pending it was settled on 12 June 1982 when Argentina surrendered to the British.
If Argentina believes it has a grievance then it needs to take it to the International Courts of Justice not continuously bleat on about it to any two-bit dictator that'll give you 5 seconds of their time.
But Argentina doesn't want this so-called 'issue' settled. It's government likes to use it as a distraction from all the problems, most of which are caused by rampant corruption which pervades every aspect of Argentine society.
As for Argentine veterans. They were responsible for their own actions during the war. This included illegally laying land mines without marking their position, using the protected Red Cross symbol to hide military hardware, illegally detaining civilians and not giving them access to basic necessities, such as food and water, threatening civilians with weapons, vandalism of civilian property, and planting high explosives in the children's desks it the school.
There is NO excuse for these war crimes, and they can't plead that they were only following orders because this defence was thrown out at Nuremburg.
Not every Argentine soldier committed war crimes but far too many were complicit in them.
But to balance my post I will say that how the Argentine government and people treated these men after the surrender was deplorable. They were spat upon (after finally being allowed home) by the 'Argentine' public and called cowards. I'm sure that will have stayed with them throughout the last 30 odd years.
Always too little, too late.
Rg's to the ICJ?
Jul 12th, 2016 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Much too dangerous.
China just got handed its head by them.
@42 Chronic
Jul 12th, 2016 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Indeed.
Apparently just saying that territory is yours isn't enough, you have to prove it, and China couldn't prove their so-called 'ancestral' claim.
Just like Argentina can't prove any of its claims.
So to clarify to all the Argentines out there: saying something belongs to you doesn't make it yours...unless you can PROVE it in court. Everything else is hot air.
@19: the very few civilians that resulted killed were due to british forces actions after all
Jul 12th, 2016 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@25: Argentine troops fought against british soldiers. They didn't kill, nor fight, against civlians.
The positioning of a ground launch exocet system in the middle of Stanley was what cost the lives of three civilian ladies. That was placed by the Argentine forces.
114 civilian people were held prisoner at Goose Green for thirty days, again by Argentine forces, while their homes were ransacked and shat in by Argentine forces.
These are hardly the actions of a “liberating” army or heroic in any shape. No apology has ever been given for these things.
Whilst it is decidedly inconsiderate to have a go at the veterans of the war, it is also disingenuous to think that the Argentines were particularly heroic in their treatment of the civilians. You only have to recall the words of that great leader Patricio Dowling, “The best thing would be to kill them all”, to understand the minds of the Argentine hierarchy.
@33..Enrique..you must read this article.
Jul 12th, 2016 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.infobae.com/economia/2016/07/12/aun-con-tarifazo-argentina-tiene-el-gas-de-red-mas-barato-de-la-region/
@45 pgerman
Jul 13th, 2016 - 08:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Relevance?
So pgerman as you have patently ignored my comment at @10 above I will ask you yet again if a little more directly, when are the Argentine government and people going to show respect to the Falkland Islanders and the kith and kin of those who were killed, wounded and maimed by apologising for the 1982 invasion and subsequent harassment?.
Jul 13th, 2016 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You expect respect for Argentine soldiers, airmen and naval personnel but what about respect for the Falkland Islanders themselves?
Whether you believe that the Falkland Islands belong to Argentina is irrelevant. Argentina imposed a military occupation, ignored UN Resolution 502, ignored attempts by the US to find a diplomatic solution and forced the British to remove you.
You state at @25 “Argentine troops fought against british soldiers. They didn't kill, nor fight, against civlians” which, of course is highly disingenuous as the civilians would not have been in any sort of danger if the Falklands had not been invaded by Argentina.
The whole blame for the Falklands war and its aftermath lies fairly and squarely at Argentina's door.
So I repeat when are the Argentine Government and people going to show respect to the Falkland Islanders et al by apologising.
@41
Jul 13th, 2016 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“As for Argentine veterans. They were responsible for their own actions during the war. This included illegally laying land mines without marking their position, using the protected Red Cross symbol to hide military hardware, illegally detaining civilians and not giving them access to basic necessities, such as food and water, threatening civilians with weapons, vandalism of civilian property, and planting high explosives in the children's desks it the school.”
Any human right violations are FALSE STATEMENTS. All the official reports from Red Cross, the UK Government and other institutions mentioned that no human right were violated during the war (for both sides).
In addition. If the argentine soldiers violated islanders human rights they must had been officially accused by the UK justice when became prisioners. The real issue is that only Astiz was sent to France for previous human rights violations. The resto of the argentine soldiers were not even accused by british justice. So, please, stop playing the role of the victim. Stop lying.
“The real issue is that only Astiz was sent to France for previous human rights violations.”
Jul 13th, 2016 - 01:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Astiz was not sent to France. Or Sweden. Though both countries did request his extradition. Astiz was, que yo sepa, the only POW taken by the British who was taken to the UK before being repatriated to Argentina. NB: ironically, to have turned Astiz over to France would likely have been a violation of an article of the Geneva Convention.
Years after the Falklands war, a French court sentenced Astiz in absentia for the kidnapping of French nationals during the Dirty War.
There is a good deal of very valid material on Argentine violations of the Hague and Geneva conventions, including citation of the specific articles. That the violations were not prosecuted at the time does not erase the existence of the events.
@49
Jul 13th, 2016 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From the moment that the UK recovery the real sovereignty on the islands the responsibility over alleged human rights violations was on the British side.
With the aggravating that the potential perpetrators of crimes against humanity were held as prisoners of war by the British authorities.
If there were violations of human rights against civilians, British soldiers or among Argentine soldiers the justice of the United Kingdom should have acted judging and punishing the facts.
If there were human right violation but the British justice, the British government and the British armed forces did not acted they became complicit in human rights violations and are worthy of sation that correspond to those who hide these acts.
Please, explain the reasons why civil or military courts in the United Kingdom did not act as it was mandatory.
The answer is quite simple: The violations mentioned by other forum members are lies in order to victimize the islanders.
The findings of several organizations (such as the Red Cross) even the British military justice was inconclusive (even in the cases in which prisoners of war under British responsibility were killed by British soldiers).
Stop lying !!!
50
Jul 13th, 2016 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stop making up stories.
@51
Jul 13th, 2016 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Felix Artuso being a POW was killed by british forces in the Georgias Islands. Check this information. Tow argentine soldiers (also POW) were killed by a British soldier in the FI when they were “voluntarily” working in the transport of ammunition and explosives (that is something forbidden by the Geneva Convention). Pleasae, check this info too.
In addition, saddly some islanders were killed by the actions of the task forces.
These are facts....
@50 “Please, explain the reasons why civil or military courts in the United Kingdom did not act as it was mandatory.”
Jul 13th, 2016 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is nothing “mandatory” about investigating and prosecuting every one of the losing side's crimes. Even the most somnambulant argento is quite aware of the many crimes that Gral Menéndez and his officers committed against his own troops, and the Argentine media over the years have presented a great deal of that. So where is your outrage against the crimes committed against not only the Islanders, but crimes committed by Argentina against Argentine troops on the islands? Even the Rattenbach report indicated those violations, and recommended that they be prosecuted by the Junta Militar. Did that ever take place? Bear in mind that your own government indicated that it was the responsibility of the Argentine government to investigate and prosecute such violations that took place during that period of conflict.
Likewise, pgerman, you did not recognise your error in stating that Astiz was sent to France by the UK. It is you who are making things up, pgerman.
@53
Jul 13th, 2016 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“There is nothing “mandatory” about investigating and prosecuting every one of the losing side's crimes” THIS IS TOTALLY A fALSE STATEMENT.
Any war crime or human righ violation reported must be (it is mandatory) investigated and, if needed, officially alleged to justice. This is part of the Geneva Convention, the militar and civil law.
In addition, the crimes mentioned by some participants in the forum refered to crimes against british civilians in britith territory. So, any lack of justice actions is under British responsibility.
Alfredo Astiz was sent to Paris accused of taking part in the crime of three french nuns years before the war. (I know a person that was witness of the kidnapping of the nuns). This case is not rerlated to human rights violations.
Some violations of the rights of argentine soldiers by argentine high ranked militars were reported but, until now, nobody was condemned either by british or argentine justice.
The real facts are that three islanders were accidentally killed by british actions and three argentine soldiers under british responsibility (they were POW) were also killed by british forces. But as I am not malicious I assume that the British military justice investigated both cases and determine the character of fatal accident of Argentine prisoners. Regardless the fact that Felix Artuso was killed to shots when he was unarmed
pgerman, your own statements confirm that there is no obligation to prosecute every suspected violation.
Jul 13th, 2016 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Get your stories straight, pgerman: Astiz was not sent to France by the UK as a result of the Falklands war. As Astiz was a POW there was an obligation to avoid doing this, though the French and the Swedish asked the UK to make him available for questioning, something the UK denied. He was returned to Argentina.
La prensa argentina: ”...la premier [Thatcher] ....[manifestó que Astiz] deberá ser liberado porque Londres no violará la Convención de Ginebra, que establece el trato de los prisioneros durante la guerra.... Astiz fue llevado al Reino Unido. Francia entregó diez preguntas para que se le formulasen sobre la desaparición de dos monjas francesas (Astiz fue finalmente condenado en la Argentina por esos crímenes) y Suecia hizo lo propio sobre la desaparición de Dagmar Hagelin.
Y [Astiz] volvió de regreso a la Argentina. ”
Study your Argentine history, pgerman. And you will see that the UK did not hand Astiz over to France.
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Yet another reckless violation by Argentina that we don't often think about - the June 1982 wartime Argentine bombing of the neutral ship Hercules in international waters:
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/13/world/court-rules-that-argentina-can-be-sued-in-attack-on-tanker.html
Felix Artuso was shot because it was mistakenly believed that he was trying to sabotage the vessel. Not an execution as you seem to infer.
Jul 13th, 2016 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0s://www.google.co.uk/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=loCGV8HVJfGA8QfV2YbgBw&gws_rd=ssl#start=10&q=argentinian+pow's+killed+while+removing+ammunition&nirf=argentina+pow's+killed+while+removing+ammunition.
Maybe you would care to read this and comment.
”2. Not near military targets.63 (GC III, art. 23). During the Falklands War, several Argentine POWs were accidentally killed while moving ammunition away from their billets.
@55
Jul 13th, 2016 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“pgerman, your own statements confirm that there is no obligation to prosecute every suspected violation”? What?
Let's see if I understood. Are you saying that I can go to the Islands amd commit a crime but the justice there can or cannot be forced to take actions?
So tt might depend on the wheather.....it might depend on my face.....this is a ridiculous discussion.
Any crime in war time MUST be face justice. Even in places where there is no organized state or goverment the UN or other international courts are forced to act.
Don't put Alfredo Astiz here since his situation was not related to crimes commited during the war. His situation were related to crimes in argentine territory.
@56
I know Felix Artuso story quite well. I have never inferred that he was executed. I wrote that Felix Artuso was a POW under british authorities responsibility and he ended killed.
Argentine troops, not even by “mistake”, killed either any british POW or any islander. Facts.
All deaths in the Falklands war ,British,Argentine and Falkland Islander were the result of Argentinas invasion and refusal to leave.
Jul 13th, 2016 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Indisputable fact.
@57 Pgerman: “Don't put Alfredo Astiz here....”
Jul 13th, 2016 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pgerman, it was YOU who brought up Astiz, in @48 ! And you were wrong about it then, as well:
Pgerman: “The real issue is that only Astiz was sent to France for previous human rights violations...”
NB: for those who don't know who Astiz was, he was another shining example of the sorts of fellows found in Argentina's invasion and occupation forces, having been one of the principal murderers of civilians during the Argentine Dirty War.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-15472396
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-15472396
As reeeeeeeeeeeekie wrote:
Jul 13th, 2016 - 11:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All rgs lie.
You are being somewhat disingenuous. The two POW's killed were as a result of them dropping mortar bombs. The proximity of these to where they were being interred was regarded as dangerous. The use of POW's in this situation is sanctioned as I pointed out in my post at #56.
Jul 14th, 2016 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0One of the POW's was killed outright in the explosion and the other had limbs blown off and was on fire. As an act of mercy, a medical orderly shot him to relieve his suffering as he would have died in agony.
You again are inferring that the British forces were responsible for their deaths--stretching credulity here !
I suppose by your notion, if a Pucara had made a sneak attack on this area, hit the bomb dump and killed Arg. POW's it would have been the British forces fault as well.
Your quote:-
”Tow argentine soldiers (also POW) were killed by a British soldier in the FI when they were “voluntarily” working in the transport of ammunition and explosives (that is something forbidden by the Geneva Convention). ”
You obviously have not read the Geneva Convention !
Article 52 of the Geneva convention allows the use of POW's to work in dangerous situations if they volunteer. I would imagine that they would be only too glad to have these items removed from where they were being interned.
Again you are inferring that they did not volunteer but were directed.
Your proof of this being what ?
Yes, with hindsight, the killing of Astiz was wrong. The Marine thought that he was trying to sabotage the submarine. He reacted in a split second, subsequently he was proven wrong.
Bad things happen in war. By and large, the treatment of Arg. POW's was exemplary.
pgerman, I notice that you have still not responded to my @10 and @47 asking you when the Argentine Government and people were going to apologise to the Falkland Islanders and the kith and kin of those killed as well as all those injured and maimed as a result of the Argentine invasion.
Jul 14th, 2016 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your lack of response tells everyone that you don't believe there is anything to apologise for - which tells us a lot.
Also, I include two quotes from Falkland Islanders themselves just to demonstrate that the occupation wasn't all flowers and puppies as you would have us believe -
From Mr Pitaluga, a Spanish speaking resident of Salvador Settlement after his home had been raided -
“…there was much verbal abuse and threats, including one gorilla-like army Captain, probably from their military police, who never did anything without screaming and shouting. I really did think he was going to shoot me at one stage. He stood me on the sea wall outside the Police Station and put a gun to the back of my head and started clicking the trigger mechanism. Then he pushed me into a trench with two soldiers who were told to shoot me if I tried to escape…”
Eric Goss from Goose Green –
“ The Argentinians came running down from the airfield area to the settlement within fifteen minutes of the Harrier attack. They moved two Chinooks and some smaller helicopters into the settlement among the houses. They put all the local people into the Recreation Hall – 114 people, most of them for 29 days – and moved their own men into the civilians’ houses so they wouldn’t be bombed. Sanitation in the hall was grim. We ran out of water on the third day; the two toilets were blocked and there was some dysentery…our dogs had no food and were not cleaned out for nine days the first time, then another week, then every two days. Human rights were low on their list of priorities; animals idn’t reckon at all…”
@61
Jul 14th, 2016 - 12:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Bad things happen in war. By and large, the treatment of Arg. POW's was exemplary”. This is a correct statement.
This war is considered as the best example of a war without human rights violations. All the official conclussions of Red Cross, the UN, etc in their reports.
I don't believe a word of alleged abuses suffered by the islanders. If they had suffered a human right violation the british authorities, and the british justice, had the best chances ever to make justice. The UK took back control of the land and had the argentine soldiers as prissioners (POW) that could be officially accused and judged.
There are plenty of complaints of abuses suffered by argentine POW in hands of british soldiers. Some were make public by argentine POW but, others, by british troops. After some investigations nothing was proved.
So, we must to admit that was a “clean” war. This means that thousands of argentine POW were correctly treated and hundreds of british prisioners (including in this category the islanders) were also correctly treated.
You might like it or not but the real facts are that three argentine POW ended dead while the were under british authorities responsibility. Two/three islanders were killed by the british forces. None of the islanders, or british soldiers POW, ended dead while under argentine authorities.
You keep on about Argentinian dead as if it was a policy of the UK forces.
Jul 14th, 2016 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0One was an unfortunate fatal error. The other was an accident and an act of mercy.
The UK civilians deaths can be directly laid at the door of the Argentinian command.
Did you check on your untrue remark at ”(that is something forbidden by the Geneva Convention). ” Would you care to retract that statement?
As to you not believing a word about the treatment of the Islanders, that says it all.
Any more discussion is a waste of time.
@64
Jul 14th, 2016 - 01:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You kept on considering things I have never mentioned. The safety of the POW was clearly under british responsibility. It might be “accidents” but accidents are, in most of the caes, preventable. I'm engineer and companies are responsible of the safety and the conditions inside their plants.
I know perfectly well that prisioners can work if they accept to do so. The question is if they had the chance to freely accept or refuse working in the removal of the amunition. Again..what safety conditions were offered to the prisioners to make their job under reasonable conditions?
Of course that, it is obvious, in any war unconfortable situations happens but this doesn't mena that they were human right violations. Honestly I don't believe in any human rights violation suffered by islaners simpley becuase british justice had the chance to judge the responsible people.
pgerman. Doesn't matter how much you wriggle the facts are simple - nobody, but nobody would have died or been injured etc if Argentina had not invaded the Falkland Islands - there is no way round it - every incident can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of Argentina.
Jul 14th, 2016 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say ”I don't believe a word of alleged abuses suffered by the islanders. If they had suffered a human right violation the british authorities, and the british justice, had the best chances ever to make justice. The UK took back control of the land and had the argentine soldiers as prissioners (POW) that could be officially accused and judged”. - easily said but how would Mr Pitaluga be able to identify a man who held a gun to his head from 12,000 similarly clad Argentine soldiers? I don't suppose the Argentine soldier gave his name and address - do you?
You still haven't responded to my posts @10, @47 and @62.
You obviously feel there is nothing to apologise for consequently if you, the Argentine Government and the Argentine people do not have the common humility to apologise for the suffering you have bought on others than that speaks volumes about you, the Argentine government and the Argentine people.
#65
Jul 14th, 2016 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0OK, in a fluid wartime situation how would YOU have prevented the death of Astiz.
Call a committee meeting to discuss whether or not Astiz was attempting sabotage ? The marine had to make an instant decision and got it wrong.
A war crime certainly not.
Our troops first duty was to the safety and success of their mission not the comfort and well being of their enemies. The POW's deaths was a result of our troops caring for the Arg. POW's safety by having dangerous ammunition moved from their proximity. It went wrong when an Argentinian dropped the mortar bombs, so it was, to put it crudely, an own goal. Rather than watch him burn to death in agony, someone gave him the coup de grace to end his suffering.
We had no POW camps with facilities at this stage in the war . Our troops did not have barracks either.
You try to compare your duty of care in your factory and extrapolate that to a battlefield. Absolute nonsense.
“.what safety conditions were offered to the prisioners to make their job under reasonable conditions? ”
THEY WERE SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely to God they were used to moving munitions about on a battlefield ! If I remember correctly they were ARGENTINE MUNITIONS. I would have thought that they would have been stored without a fuze, taken to the battlefield and then fuzed.
As to the judging of human rights violations, the UK was sick to death of the whole situation and did not want it dragged out. We wanted rid of the Argentine army, give the islanders back their lives and for our men to home.
Argentina lost,
Jul 14th, 2016 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0they should get over it,
they have no navy , no air force , and a under invested out of date army,
they should concentrate on their own country rather than ruin another one that is not even theirs.
@67 “Call a committee meeting to discuss whether or not Astiz was attempting sabotage ”
Jul 14th, 2016 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have the wrong droid. Astiz was one of the commanders of the land forces who had been a major player in the Dirty War in Argentina.
Felix Artuso (not Astiz) was the one mistakenly killed when he was aboard the (captured) submarine Santa Fe.
I know all those argie names sound the same.
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@67 “ I would have thought that they would have been stored without a fuze, taken to the battlefield and then fuzed.”
-- If I am not mistaken, the 60mm and 81mm mortar bombs used by the argies in the Falklands came with their fuzes already installed, but delivered to the ammunition storage locations with the safety rings in the fuzes, that had to be removed before firing. However, even a dropped but unfired mortar bomb fuze with the ring removed is still usually not armed, for reasons I could explain - but not here. If someone is carrying a previously fired mortar bomb (as a UXO) , and drops it, then your day is likely to be ruined.
@69 Marti
Jul 15th, 2016 - 10:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for that - I've never been in the military but what you say seems very likely.
However, didn't I read somewhere that it was believed that the POW who died had triggered a booby-trap?
It should also be remembered that the only Gurkha fatality in the Falkland Islands was post surrender when he trod on a mine in an unmarked and un-recorded minefield.
“...an unmarked and un-recorded minefield....”
Jul 15th, 2016 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now, there is evidence of yet another argie war-crime.
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