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Uruguay prepared to receive Lula da Silva if he requests political asylum

Tuesday, November 22nd 2016 - 09:36 UTC
Full article 30 comments

President Tabare Vazquez said on Monday that Uruguay recognizes the government of president Michel Temer, respects the decisions of Brazil emerging from its political situation and admitted considering giving asylum to Brazilian politicians, if contemplated under International Law. Read full article


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  • ChrisR

    Oh yes! Roll up all you liars, thieves and especially Brazilian politicians, the seditious, murdering, commie bastards at the top of The Broad Fraud will welcome you with open arms as long as you bring your ill-gotten gains with you because they have bust the country.

    Who next, Maduro, TMBOA?

    Now do the three whiners who claim I should not 'criticise' the government have a better grip on what the citizens of Uruguay have to put up with?

    Nov 22nd, 2016 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jack Bauer

    They are already preparing for the inevitable - Lula's escape to Uruguay. Quite frankly, it doesn't make much difference to Brazil, as if he flees he'll be signing his own political death sentence ; he'll be condemned 'in-absentia' and the joint-effort of the Federal task-force will continue to search for the stolen money. And to top it, we won't need to see his disgusting, snarling, evil face anymore. But Brazil might ask for his extradition, so that he may rot in prison.

    Nov 22nd, 2016 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • ChrisR

    @ Jack Bauer

    Highly unlikely he would be returned if the Broad Fraud were still in power: they look after their own.


    Nov 22nd, 2016 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jack Bauer

    With the idiot Tabare Vasquez in power, that's a good possibility.....but the most important thing is that the Brazilian people see the SOB for what he is....then again, it might be easier to bump him off...never stop hoping that one morning will see the headlines, “Lula, Brazilian ex-president, had a fatal 'accident' while enjoying his weekend in Punta...just waiting to open a ”Dom Pérignon” to celebrate...

    Nov 22nd, 2016 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Asylum or not; all the loot which he and his associates have gathered during the past ten or so years; is virtually impossible to be returned to the Brazilians.

    Nov 22nd, 2016 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @ JB
    Not a wise thing to wish for; if the government is going to stoop to assassination, it could just as easily be Temer or someone you support who gets bumped off.

    In fact the most likely target would be whoever is trying to clean up the corruption, since so many people are implicated. Not a cheering thought.

    Nov 23rd, 2016 - 12:35 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • ChrisR

    @ Jack Bauer

    Oh dear, you need to be 'careful' about mentioning the 'obvious solution' or you will be tarred with the ChrisR brush!


    Nov 23rd, 2016 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Jack Bauer

    as to 'bumping off' the 9-fingered mollusc, obviously it's only a manner of speech to convey my hatred for the SOB and what he' done to destroy Brazil...nevertheless, if someone were to take a pot-shot at him, and not miss, I wouldn't lose any sleep.
    DT, what I'm going to say now is NO criticism, more like a statement of fact as I see it : when you've lived in, and been brought up in a country as politically unstable and crime-ridden as Brazil (despite the 'good' things, which give you hope it can improve), you become slightly less sensitive to the human-rights of people such as Lula...and why not Dilma ? If you analyze it from the angle that their stealing - not to mention incompetence - has (indirectly) caused the death of hundreds of thousands of Brazilians - through lousy if not disgusting public health-care, through lack of basic security and other things, you come to acknowledge the fact that Lula & Co. perhaps don't deserve to live...and spend the taxpayers stolen money.

    Nov 23rd, 2016 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ Jack Bauer

    Nice try, don't hold your breath though.

    I have certainly modified my outlook since living in Uruguay and find it laughable that people who have never been here (even if they claim to have been here :o) ) and do not appreciate the real problems (or in the other case call me a liar) think they know best!

    This sort of threat is coming to the UK unless radical action is enacted by the government to cut out the cancer of radical Muslims and soon.

    Nov 24th, 2016 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @ JB
    “obviously it's only a manner of speech to convey my hatred ”

    Fair enough. There are certainly people whose deaths wouldn't make me shed any tears, but if someone killed them I would still want to see that someone go to jail.

    As for Lula, you may be right about his having caused those deaths. But I think that and an appropriate punishment if he is found guilty is something for the courts to decide. Is respect for the law a conservative value?

    @ ChrisR
    The terrorist who murdered MP Jo Cox and stabbed a pensioner who tried to save her was jailed for life yesterday. This is what should happen to those who try to get their way through murder and violence.

    Nov 24th, 2016 - 02:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Agreed. Only after you've bet all your chips on a country and been 'forced' to take whatever it throws back at you, is that you really get to know how things work there - obviously this molds your thoughts on many issues, such as how to treat rotten, corrupt politicians.
    I remember an incident, back in the 80's when I was in London, queuing up to enter a session in Parliament. I got talking to an American, just in front of me ; when he asked me where I was from, his reaction to learning I was, to all effects, Brazilian, was to say “but you guys have the death squad down there, what about the rights of the criminals ?”. I calmly tried to explain how the squad worked (pretty efficiently), and that many people, including myself, had come to accept the fact that it was a necessary evil...well, not really evil, but necessary. He went on to say that would never happen in the USA.....true, because back then, the Law functioned well there. It never has in Brazil, until now, but still limited to corrupt politicians. Needless to say, we parted ways, no longer the best of then dawned on me how some people believed that the whole world had to be as perfect as theirs.

    Nov 24th, 2016 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @ JB
    Are you actually Brazilian? Since you speak such good English I thought maybe you moved there from Britain, or some other English speaking country.

    Also how did the death squad work? The name does not exactly inspire confidence...

    Nov 24th, 2016 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ DemonTree
    “The terrorist who murdered MP Jo Cox and stabbed a pensioner who tried to save her was jailed for life yesterday.”

    I cannot recall him ever denying it?

    How much does it cost to keep a high security criminal in jail for the rest of his life and what does keeping him alive bring to the average citizen?

    A 9mmx19mm cartridge costs U$D 1 in Uruguay, it would be even cheaper in the UK.

    Bit of a no-brainer.

    Nov 24th, 2016 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    As to my being Brazilian is a long story. I was born in Argentina, of British parents, came to Brazil as a young kid, lived here most of my life, except for the best part of 5 years in west Africa and a far shorter period in Japan. I'm a naturalized brazilian, currently living in SP.

    While the 'so-called' death squad sounds nasty, in truth it was a blessing. In the mid-70's, when migration from the northeastern states increased dramatically, so did street crime. Most immigrants - with virtually no formal education - had come here to work in civil contruction, but when the construction boom came to an end, many of the recent-arrivals had no prospect of landing another job, mainly because they had zero qualification. So they resorted to petty-crime, which eventually escalated to unbearable levels. To cope with a slow, inefficient Justice system, that would usually free criminals shortly after being captured, the police decided to take the law into their own hands. In the end, things may have gotten a bit out of control, and many of the 'vigilantes' became guns for hire. But on the upside, they knew well who the criminals were, hunted them down and executed them. They then dumped the bodies and would anonymously advise the authorities where to find them ; street crime never reached such low levels, and obviously, the population was grateful. One of our State governors openly preached that “a good criminal is a dead one”, causing the police to take it literally and to feel ok with the idea of taking no prisoners. One of my friends in the early 80's, who was a lieutenant-coronel in the military police (and was, unfortunately murdered abt 10 years ago) was the officer that lead the “massacre” in the Carandiru State Penitentiary, and he confirmed what went on behind the scenes ; after the military left (1985) and the civilians came back, human-rights became 'the thing', with criminality soaring once again.

    Nov 24th, 2016 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • ChrisR

    @ Jack Bauer

    The way the 'judges' here are interpreting the self-defence law and jailing the policia for what the citizens know to be actions in their favour will, unless this damnable government gets it's head from up it's arse, result in the policia not turning out.

    Why should they when all they get is 13,500 pesos (minimum wage 11,500 pesos) and when they continue firing at a car that has just tried to run them down and known to have been used 5 minutes before by three murderers and is trying to flee the scene the 'judge' jails three out of the four policia involved because a murderer was killed (the bullet went through the broken rear screen, through the headrest and took the arseholes face off).

    'He was not a threat to you' the judge was quoted to have said as he jailed them!

    Stuff the fact that these career criminals will go on their merry killing spree when they come out of jail after 8 years.

    Oh for our own death squads! At least only the criminals died for once.

    “Only after you've bet all your chips on a country and been 'forced' to take whatever it throws back at you, is that you really get to know how things work there”

    How true!

    Nov 25th, 2016 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I can see why your American acquaintance objected. It sounds an awful lot like the government decided to solve their poverty and unemployment problem by allowing the police to murder the poor and unemployed, after they had resorted to crime because they had no other option.

    One of the reasons for giving handouts to the unemployed in richer countries is to prevent them from turning to crime; it's just cheaper to give people benefits than to jail them. But if the alternative to handouts is killing people, then I have to say it puts me a lot more in favour of the handouts.

    You said the PT had ruined the economy in Brazil, but I guess it was never good enough to actually give everyone jobs and solve the problem at the root? The military government did not manage to make the country rich enough either.

    I expect you will say that having never lived in a poor country, I just don't understand. Obviously until I do so I can't know whether I would change my mind or not. However, clearly not everyone in Brazil agrees with you, or they would have kept the death squads after civilian rule returned, instead of becoming so concerned with human rights.

    @ ChrisR
    There are certainly arguments in favour of the death penalty, although on balance I am opposed to it. What there is no argument for is the hypocrisy of wanting one law for those who agree with you, and a different one for your opponents.

    Nov 26th, 2016 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • ChrisR

    @ DT

    The Brazilian government under Lula have taken no notice whatsoever about the drug related killings against bystanders, WGAF about druggies killing each other? These are now out of hand.

    Do you not realise that laws are there for the behavior of law-abiding people to be controlled by the government?

    Only criminals deliberately break the law and that is what ENFORCEMENT is all about.

    So (in SA and especially UYU) I have no problem if government members who break the law with impunity get topped.

    Do you know why? On very many laws there is neither enforcement specified in the Penal Code OR (very often) the enforcement agencies are not funded to carry it out, the policia especially. So although the Broad Fraud can claim they have made a law, the bastards know full well nothing will ever change. A bit like The Cunt Brown in the UK.

    I take it you are not married or have children? If you lived in some reasonable residential areas of MVD you would be very concerned that they would be robbed / raped / killed. Think how that would affect your 'let the murderers live' when they would be out in 8 years to carry on with their career.

    Nov 26th, 2016 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    “It sounds an awful lot like the government decided to solve their poverty and unemployment problem by allowing the police to murder the poor and unemployed...”

    Hardly, but not surprised you'd think that. Many of the criminals that came out of those migration waves were not just poor guys who had no other option...that view is currently defended by local human-rights activists, who 'believe' they are victims of an unjust society etc; if this were true, then why didn't/don’t all of the 'poor' and unemployed resort to crime? We're not talking of someone who steals to feed his family - none of those hunted down were 'small-time' thieves...they were vicious murderers, rapists, and their crimes were usually accompanied by extreme cruelty…they were only a tiny, insignificant fraction of the 'poor' population.
    Allow me to disagree with your idea that handouts are a way of preventing crime...most of today's criminals belong to large criminal factions, which dominate prison populations and the slums, and live very affluent lives in their 'communities'..the last thing they want is to be are law-abiding citizens, receiving handouts. They’re in it because there are millions to be made in organized crime. Not so in a regular job. Take Rio, where organized crime is a state within a state, that openly defies the police.
    The PT inherited a good situation in 2003, but soon their ideology (populism with corruption to ensure eternal power) prevailed over sound economic policy...they caused Brazil to go back 20 years in time and left an unpayable debt. The military on the other hand, invested heavily in infrastructure, which when the civilians took over, was largely ignored.
    The death squad only lasted a few years, but while it did, the population of SP stood behind it. ‘Human-rights' really only appeared in the 80’s, promoted by the PT, to get huge indemnities for their colleagues, ex ‘freedom-fighters’ of the 60’s and 70’s.
    They defend only criminals, not the victims.

    Nov 26th, 2016 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    You said the problem was petty crime, done by migrants who had no chance of getting another job. And that street crime reached it's lowest level as a result of the death squad. What sort of crimes are you talking about here?

    And how do you know that none of those hunted down were small time thieves? Or indeed, people who some policeman had a grudge against, or who refused to pay the police a bribe? With no trials, no oversight, and no records, how are we to know who was killed? Is there even a record of these people's names?

    As for handouts preventing crime, I certainly don't think they can prevent all crime, just the kind you mentioned, of people committing petty crimes to survive, because they have few other options. Giving them jobs would be better, but that seems to be rather harder than handouts.

    Organised crime is more difficult, and requires a different approach, in particular cutting off sources of funding if possible.

    Why do you think the PT were elected in 2003? I supposed that it was similar to the situation in the US now; although the country as a whole is doing okay, there are a lot of people who are not seeing any improvement in their lives, or sharing in the wealth created. Is that broadly correct?

    We have laws so we can have a functioning society; if everyone just did as they wished we would all suffer, except the few who were strongest or most ruthless. At the root, we make a bargain not to do certain things that harm other people, so they do not do things that harm us. And the government must enforce this, or the bargain no longer works.

    That's why I say it would be bad if Lula or Mujica was murdered, even if one or the other might have actually done something to deserve it. Because then their supporters will see no reason not to do the same to the politicians *you* favour.

    Nov 27th, 2016 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ DT

    “And the government must enforce this, or the bargain no longer works.”

    That 'bargain' doesn't work in some areas in the UK. Try going into two well known areas of Manchester and see what happens.

    OR the Pakistani grooming gang areas in Lancashire who love nothing more than passing round 12 YO onward white girls for their friends to rape. I take it you have at least heard of them?

    Sorry, you still don't get it that only civilised countries have laws that 'work' for their civilised people.

    Third world countries, of which Uruguay is largely one, have a completely different approach to the 'value' of life. The lazy stinking poor don't want to work, not at school and certainly not for the rest of their lives. So what to do? Pilfer everything they can from stealing deposit value empty beer bottles and reclaiming the money for themselves, then migrating to 'proper' theft as they grow up. Then of course they go into 'the big time' of robbery and burglary and if / when they get caught they know the penalty will be minor and from their friends what to expect in jail. IT'S A WAY OF LIFE! there are 1.4M poor, and a significant number act in this way.

    Why should anyone risk their life and those of the friends and family for these people?

    I will not, that's for certain.

    Nov 28th, 2016 - 11:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Before the ‘nordestinos’ came south, street crime was virtually unheard of. During daytime, doors were left unlocked, neighbors would wander in for a chat, no one walked around looking over their shoulder. This soon changed, as besides introducing a new, totally different culture - one in which basically, women exist only for pleasure, personal offences are usually solved by killing your opponent - it is a violent one, where human life means nothing. This culture goes back to the 1500’s, when the big landowners in the NE had the power of life and death over the people, and although things have improved slightly over the last 50 years, much of the same mindset still prevails. Education in that region was virtually non-existent (result of longstanding unofficial govt policy - easier to control people). Although those that resorted to crime were insignificant in numbers, they were enough to make a difference. And yes, the squad always advised the authorities the identity of the deceased.
    In the beginning their crimes were not too serious, but as I said, seeing the potential, crime escalated. How did we know ‘small-time’ thieves were not killed ? easy, those killed were only the notorious criminals…no chicken-robbers. As I mentioned, the death squads eventually got a bit out of hand, when they became guns-for-hire…and that’s when the authorities intervened to terminate them. See you agree that handouts are easier than creating jobs.
    In 2003, large portions of the poor, literally, used to go hungry….Lula’s whole campaign platform was based on a promise to create a federally funded programme called “zero hunger”, which promised them 3 meals a day. The programme failed miserably after only 18 months, and was ridden with corruption, so it was closed down; but other handouts were created, so Lula’s popularity remained unscathed and the recipients were too ignorant to realize they were just being manipulated.

    Nov 28th, 2016 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    So was crime already bad in the North East where these people came from? And do the Landowners still have the power of life and death over people? And still keep them uneducated and ignorant for easier control?

    It sounds like the government could have solved the problem by 'deporting' the unemployed back to the provinces they came from. Even creating a prison camp would surely be better than killing them.

    How did the squad know the real identity of the people they had killed anyway? Is there a list somewhere, along with what they were supposed to have done? Also when you say they got out of hand, do you mean people were paying them to kill whoever they wanted to get rid of?

    About the PT, you say the recipients of the handouts were too ignorant to realise they were being manipulated. But if previous governments had left them to go hungry, it seems pretty rational to vote for Lula. Why should they care that the economy was better before if it brought no benefit to them? And now that Temer is in power and is cutting public spending, will people be going hungry again?

    Yes, sometimes laws are not well enforced and order breaks down. The best solution to this is to enforce them, which is finally happening now in Rotherham etc. No laws at all is generally much worse than imperfect ones though, just look at Libya and Iraq.

    In Uruguay, how do you know that the poor don't want to work? Are there lots of jobs available? Even stealing empty beer bottles must require some amount of effort, which they could be putting into a part time job. The long term solution would require giving these people some opportunities other than crime, and also better enforcement of the law.

    Anyway, you say you don't want to risk your life for them - what do you mean? Are you not allowed to defend yourself in Uruguay? Do the criminals often carry guns? The guy in your story earlier did not have one and it probably would have ended less happily if he had.

    Nov 28th, 2016 - 10:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • ChrisR

    @ DT

    Given the hysterical lies from EB and her threat to 'track me down' using 'professionals' I have no intention of stating anything about our personal security.

    The man in the story was not a career criminal as such, he was a fraudster.

    “Do the criminals often carry guns?”

    It was calculated (in 2014) that there are more than a million firearms (of all descriptions) that remain off the THATA system. THATA is similar to a Section 1 Firearm Certificate which allows private ownership of rifles, long barreled revolvers/pistols and short barreled black-powder revolvers in the UK.

    Shotguns are allowed on Section 2 Shotgun Certificates in the UK.

    How many firearms in UYU are in criminal hands is guesswork looking at the numbers posted by the various rifle and pistol clubs, but yes, serious criminals all carry pistols or revolvers.

    The Jefe de Policia de Maldonado has told me that if the gang comprises of three people then at least one will have a firearm and be prepared to use it.

    In MVD there are 3.328 THATA holders (as of early 2016) in a population of greater than a million.

    I couldn't GAF about the stinking poor but all my friends tell me that the numbers have grown dramatically after Mujica's bolsa scheme started. This is confirmed by Vasquez's new office set up to get to the bottom of just how many have the bolsa and how many are breaking the condition that their children must be in school for the parents to get the money.

    Why not come over to Uruguay for a year and if you survive it you will know for yourself what the facts are?

    Nov 29th, 2016 - 02:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    “So was crime already bad in the North East...” definitely was. Although things have changed quite a bit in the NE, there is still this underlying sentiment amongst the wealthy and the oligarchic families in the region. This is evident by the attitudes of nearly all northeastern politicians.
    As to the idea of deporting the unemployed, while at first glance may sound great, what would stop them from coming back ? given the reason they left the NE in the first place ? and, can you imagine the cries from the PC bleeding hearts ?

    Remember, the death squad went after only the incorrigible criminals, so why bother capturing them, only for the lousy justice system to set them free or to allow them to escape from prison ? The cops who formed the squads had access, like any cop, to criminal records. They'd select the worst, then eliminate them. Why, eventually these men became guns for hire, to settle personal differences, or perform 'revenge' killings, I don't know, but suspect they saw the possibility in increasing their meager wages...most of them (like the criminals,) coming from the lower social classes themselves, weren't totally unknown in their communities, and were probably 'asked' to do 'favours'.

    Sure, Lula played on people's deepest feelings and resentment when he campaigned, but his promises were a hoax, just to get elected ; The “bolsa familia” altered an existing programme - which had certain pre-conditions to qualify - and was implemented when his 'zero hunger' fraud went down the drain. The Temer govt has already cancelled 470,000 fraudulent handouts, and is scrutinizing another suspicious 1,5 million.....over the years it became crystal clear that Lula always hated business owners, and as a union leader, did his best to disrupt every attempt between employers / employees to negotiate an agreement. Today, he is one of Brazil's richest ? we all know.
    Regarding hunger, no worry, the 'bolsa familia' programme carries on.

    Nov 29th, 2016 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I looked up a bit about the death squads, it says they also killed street children, mostly for robbery, because the justice system did not work:

    And it's kind of obvious why the police should not be allowed to decide who is guilty, and carry out the punishment themselves. It leads to exactly what you described; with no oversight they ended up taking money to kill whoever they were asked to.

    As for deporting the criminals, you really think the 'PC bleeding hearts' would object more to them being deported, than to them being killed? And would they have been able to afford to get back? If yes, then I agree there is no point.

    I can see why they left though, life in those provinces sounds pretty dire, and it's exactly the kind of thing that holds a country back, too.

    If there was hunger before Lula was elected, and there is less or no hunger now, then how were his promises a hoax? I'm glad the bolsa familia is continuing though, since I have heard good things about it. Are you a business owner by any chance?

    Also you describe Lula the same way I would Trump, but we shall have to wait and see how many of *his* promises are hoaxes.

    @ ChrisR
    If the criminals have guns as well, then surely it is not so useful for most people to have heir own weapon? Since the criminals will be more prepared and practised than most of their potential victims.

    Sounds like a good thing that Vasquez is eliminating fraud in the bolsa, you must prefer him as president over Mujica?

    As for moving to Uruguay for a year, I'd need to find a job which would be difficult. But a few million Uruguayans obviously survive the place year after year.

    Nov 30th, 2016 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    @ DT
    “Since the criminals will be more prepared and practiced than most of their potential victims.”

    Not if they hold a THATA, which they would do if the gun was legal. Have a think about it, I am sure you will understand what you need to do to get a THATA.

    Nov 30th, 2016 - 02:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    The massacre of street kids in Rio had nothing to do with the (type of) death squads active in S.Paulo 40 years ago...their targets were totally different...however, in one form or another, there have always been small groups in the police (including ex-cops) who took the law into their own hands, sometimes to protect their interests (in cahoots with drug dealers, usually targeting the competition) ; In any case, the victims - other than those hit by stray bullets - were not innocent , and as far as I'm concerned, society is better off without them.
    It's obvious the police don't have the right to decide who lives or dies....but, as the outcome of their actions don't affect me negatively, I'm indifferent.
    Strangely, here the people's priorities, generally speaking, are screwed up...while they go beserk over football, even killing opposing teams' supporters after the match, they couldn't be bothered to vote properly to ensure thieves don't get into politics...much the same way that the PC bleeding hearts would be shocked at the idea of 'deportation' (which btw is illegal), but take the killings of dangerous criminals in their stride. It's all a matter of what you're used to. What shocks you today, might be common-place tomorrow.
    Lula really had little to offer, but through lying managed to swing the protest-vote in his favour. While the ”bolsa família' continues, Brazil was doing great in 2003 (legacy left by FHC) and 2004 (boom in world commerce), and set the stage for progress, but had Lula not been the criminal he turned out to be, the current mess would not's true that the average wages gradually increased (result of FHC policy to increase minimum wages above inflation) but Lula's/Dilma's unsustainable populist policies screwed Brazil...general consensus is that the people are back to where they started 10 years ago...and who's fault is it ?
    No, I wasn't a business owner - was an executive in one of the top global carriers (freight /cargo.)

    Nov 30th, 2016 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    “ In any case, the victims [...] were not innocent, and as far as I'm concerned, society is better off without them.”

    What, even the children included in the article? Or nine year olds sleeping on the street like Think mentioned? It's a long way from not being innocent to deserving to die.

    Are there any other groups you think society would be better off without?

    “It's obvious the police don't have the right to decide who lives or dies....but, as the outcome of their actions don't affect me negatively, I'm indifferent.”

    That's pretty cold. Do you not care whether anyone lives or dies then, except people you know personally? And you're not worried that someday, the police might be bribed to kill you, or someone you do care about?

    To be fair to the people, voting to stop thieves getting into politics appears to be impossible in Brazil, as once they are elected they all start stealing sooner or later. The voters have probably given up on finding an honest politician. It really seems like the system will need to be reformed to fix the problem in the long term.

    @ ChrisR
    I would think someone who has done it before would find it easier to shoot and kill another person, and a mugger for example will generally try to take their victim by surprise. That is what I meant by more practised and prepared.

    Nov 30th, 2016 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • ChrisR

    @ DT

    Try not to overcomplicate the matter.

    The ordinary person has had to live under the threat of being mugged and or killed since before The Broad Fraud. There have always been career criminals who see it as a way of not having to work.

    The difference since The Broad Fraud came to power with VI, Mujica and now V2 is very simple to explain: they thing these murdering cretins are 'poor boys' who 'never had a chance'. And they have instructed the BF judges to see the Penal Code that way.

    People who want to have a revolver or pistols legally have to jump through all sorts of hoops which I won't go into, except the training to use handguns. A revolver is a very simple firearm compared to a semi-automatic and there are two training courses either of which applicants must pass but they are then stuck with their choice depending on which gun type was chosen. It includes target shooting and the law on self-defence. There is also a talk on the safekeeping of the gun.

    Additionally, the applicant can apply for a concealed carry appendix to the THATA and must pass all eight elements of safe carry and shooting in self-defence. The appendix lasts two years and the THATA five years and you either sell the gun or start all over again.

    Contrast that with the likely training (none) and the intrinsic safety of the weapon the thug carries (none) and some have blown up in the hands of the thugs using them, oh joy!

    But the thugs are not poor boys as the BF want to perpetuate, there has not been any significant rise in the population except for some 500,000 argies who may or may not still be in the country. So why the vast increase in murders carried out by

    Dec 01st, 2016 - 02:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @ ChrisR
    So how many criminals are shot by their would-be victims, compared to innocent people shot by muggers etc?

    And did your friend of a friend have to do all the training etc before the police gave her the gun?

    Anyway, can you remind me what your point was please? I think it's got lost in all the back and forth, or possibly cut off by the character limit.

    Dec 01st, 2016 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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