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Montevideo, December 9th 2022 - 20:10 UTC



Tierra del Fuego questions making Malvinas Veterans Day, April 2, a floating holiday

Friday, January 27th 2017 - 10:36 UTC
Full article 90 comments

Argentine province Tierra del Fuego announced its rejection to the government's decision to make national holiday Malvinas Veterans Day, 2 April, a floating holiday anticipating it will bring up the issue in Congress. Read full article


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  • golfcronie

    How many “ Malvinas Veterans and Fallen in combat day” actually fell that day, surely as usual they are celebrating the “ invasion of the FALKLANDS ” day.

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Brit Bob

    There would have been no Falklands war without Argentina's mythical Malvinas claim.

    RIP: Argentina's Illegitimate Sovereignty Claims:

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Fidel_CasTroll

    Ah no, I don't want Tierra del Fuego and Antarctica province dictating what Mendoza province should consider an unmovable holiday.

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Marti Llazo

    The date of the holiday should in any event be changed to the 14th of June to celebrate the glorious outcome.

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Gismo

    By all means celebrate “Malvinas” Day and see yourselves as martyrs to intolerance and fascism. Argentina must learn to live with people of different ethnicity and background. It was British investment and management that created Argentina in the first place. Not corrupt latino fascists. Watch and learn.

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 02:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +7
  • Jack Bauer

    Why do the Argies insist on celebrating such a humiliating defeat ? If at least, to remind them not to try it again, it might be of some use...

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 04:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Pete Bog


    “How many “ Malvinas Veterans and Fallen in combat day” actually fell that day,”

    They could squeeze another siesta in to celebrate those that fell by 14/6/2017

    Another excuse not to work and get out of their problems, but alternatively to use the day to blame the UK for their misfortunes.

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Briton

    Tierra del Fuego party,
    apparently they are fed up with the argies and now want independence,

    Apparently the Falkland's look a better prospect than the failing

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • The Voice

    Floating holiday? Get them canoes out!

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    Just to finish off the conversation about taxes:

    That sounds even worse than what I had read before. If the PT had really wanted to help the poor, they should have attempted some sort of tax reform. Just lowering that huge tax on energy ought to help a lot of people.

    Direct taxes apart from income tax would be taxes on property or wealth, and things like corporation tax, capital gains, and the inheritance tax. For countries like Britain, I'd say anything over 50% is definitely unreasonable, and the lower brackets should be a lot less. (And Britain has had much higher rates in the past!)

    Brazil certainly seems to be way overtaxed; I'd wonder where the money is going but I think we all know the answer now.

    Jan 27th, 2017 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Marti Llazo

    @DT -- what do taxes have to do with this Falklands article?

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 12:40 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    What does June 14th have to do with this Falklands article?

    Dumb and dumber.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Marti Llazo

    The 14th of June is the proper day to recognise the Falklands adventure, fidelito. It should be on this day that Argentina celebrates the truly futile meaning of its foolhardiness in the matter.

    It is on this day that Argentina celebrates the end of the little war and the presence of large numbers of soldaditos argentinos huddled around Stanley and the airport with mountains of food and armament (including 11,000 rounds of 105mm still neatly packed in original containers) -- but wholly bereft of the necessary leadership to be effective, though fortunate indeed to have had General Menéndez to understand that it was pointless for the argies to continue against a truly professional military that had retaken the islands in record time.

    So you see, fidelito, the day of the signing of the ignominious Argentine surrender is the proper date to be added to the calendar here.

    25 April should also be unconditionally made a major national holiday:

    So pleased that you gave us the opportunity to bring this up, fidelito. Keep up the good work.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    I will keep giving you the opportunities because you see I don't care. You think it's humiliating somehow, I see it as a historical fact. We lost a war. Ok, when you see it like that, nothing you do or say makes any difference. That's the power of seeing things the way they are.

    You on the other hand, who never have said what country you are from, is a whole other matter. That in itself says it all right there. You try to insult, degrade, humiliate, belittle, dehumanize Argentines every day and every hour on this site, yet you can't say where you are from. You talk about men who fought in a battle field as “soldaditos”, ignominious, yet you are the most coward, pathetic, and yellow “human” (I think I take the word in quotes back), there can be. A keyboard coward, because you aren't even a warrior in this setting. But please do keep enjoying yourself, no one else cares I will just keep putting you in your proper location, somewhere betweeen an amobea and a bacillus.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • golfcronie

    Hows Puta Muerte doing ? Any substantial investment yet? Still Premier and Rocky are pressing on with the FALKLANDS oil.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    Mendoza choose not to drill or to mine our mountains! We don't want the environmental disaster that is Chile or Australia with open pits, and we don't want the fracking catastrophe that is the USA with earthquakes destroying entire villages. We are smarter and play the long game.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Gismo

    The Brits and the Falkland Islanders would have lot more respect for the Argies if they apologised and cleared up the minefields they left behind. We don't expect it because we don't have any respect for them. The Chileans do have our respect.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    Have you British apologized to India? To the Aborigines? To the Africans? To the Arabs? to the Pacific Islanders? To the Maori? To the Inuit? To the Native North Americans?

    We don't want your respect since your respect is worthless. We want respect from people with some moral integrity.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Marti Llazo

    @ fidelito: Argentina's government support for the Axis in WWII and nazi war criminals afterwards tells us all we need to know about fidelito's notions of decency, honour, and integrity. Argentina's murder and disappearance of some 30,000 or so just a few years ago tells us the rest of what we need to know about fidelito's notions of decency, honour, and integrity. Argentina's murder and coverup in the Nisman matter reinforces what we need to know about fidelito's notions of decency, honour, and integrity in contemporary Argentina.

    @fidelito “.... and we don't want the fracking ”

    Somebody please explain to fidelito how long YPF has been using fracking in Argentina.

    A day late and a peso short, fidelito.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • golfcronie

    Marti. What has mines got to do with Vaca Muerte any ideas? Incidently Fidel, have you ever been to Neuquen and seen all the nodding donkeys spewing out oil through lack of maintainence.Thought not “ environmental disasters” closer to home.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Jack Bauer

    Lula was elected end 2002 based on a load of promises…to eliminate hunger (”hunger-zero” programme), to reform the tax code, the social security system, the political system, the prison system, and the obsolete labour laws (which punish businesses and just serve to increase the “cost of Brazil”)…while those promises were popular with the people, they turned out to be populist propaganda…he didn’t keep any of his promises, but he did make himself and his cronies very wealthy...and bankrupted Brazil into the bargain. On average, 40% of all income (from salaries) ends up in the government coffers (direct/indirect taxes) ; not sure how much actually reaches the proposed destination, but in the past, “official” (municipal) stats showed that only 7% of taxes and contributions collected, reverted back to the population in the form of public services…93% was either mismanaged, wasted and /or just stolen….in other words, where there are public funds, there’s corruption – no exceptions.

    Getting back to terrorists for a minute, I owe you a reply - I think we’re going to have to disagree ‘slightly’ on their treatment, once caught...when dealing with mass murderers who aren’t afraid to die – after all, they’re convinced they’ve got 72 virgins waiting for them in paradise (without the slightest consideration as to whose daughter or sister they may be – something they are extremely sensitive about, when alive) - I don’t think torture will extract reliable info, or any at all, but after being caught, whether in Europe, or the ME, unless they are willing to cooperate (zero chance), a firing squad sounds like a good option. It’s not a matter of descending to their level, just a matter of justice. And why imprison them / keep them alive ? only to waste money and run the risk of them escaping ? and the notion that if they are treated with respect - despite their horrendous crimes - they will start to see the ‘west’ with different eyes, is weak and pathetic.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    I just replied to you about torture on the other thread, obviously I should have read this first.

    If the question is executing terrorists, rather than torturing suspects, then I am not as strongly opposed to the idea, assuming they are properly convicted. The US still has the death penalty so it can happen there. But I still think we are better off not bringing back the death penalty in Europe, and as for the ME, I'm sure executing prisoners of war is illegal, and it's probably better to keep it that way for the sake of future wars.

    And I certainly don't think the terrorists will see the west differently if they are treated humanely, nor do I much care. What I am concerned about are the rest of the people, who do not support the terrorists now, but might start to if they see the west as being just as evil, and as having one law for 'us' and a different one for 'them'.

    Argentina's support for the Axis and the murders committed by its former (unelected) military government don't tell us anything at all about Trollboy. He wasn't even born when those things happened.

    I'm sure you can find enough to object to in his own writing without attributing a whole country's crimes to him as well.

    Jan 28th, 2017 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    Ah Marti Llazo not satisfied with proving he is the most ignorant and illiterate of the bunch here, tries to confirm it yet again.

    Golfcronie, don't imitate ML. I don't wish that fate even on an Anglo!

    I did mention Mendoza province. You see, my illiterate ignorant MP jesters, Argentina is a federal republic, so each province has some degree of sovereignty. For example, Neuquen has decided as a petrol province to allow fracking. San Juan as a mining province has allowed open-pit.

    Mendoza, as a semi-industrial, agro-intensive, fine wine industrial, tourism-oriented economy, does not want open-pits, and does not want fracking near populated areas. The good thing about Vaca Muerta is that the region is almost uninhabited, but there are still small settlements and as such much care needs to be taken. So Mendoza does not allow either, at least at this time.

    If you two are going to comment on a foreign country, at least do the homework at learning whether that country is unitary or federal.

    That's the minimum I expect from Golfcronie, who at least is a man saying where he is from. I don't expect anything from keyboard cowards who are so ashamed of themselves they can't even reveal their nationality. All while uttering constant racist tirades against another nationality. :)

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 03:37 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Enrique Massot

    Hey people. While you were adding postings to this thread, Argentines were mobilizing against Macri's decree making “floating” not one but three key dates: the March 24 anniversary of 1976's last coup d'etat in Argentina; Malvinas' Veterans Day April 2, and even the much older Flag Day, June 20.
    Trying to save face, Macri said the new measure was taken to “avoid division” and to foster “unity among Argentines.”
    Which is another example of Macri's clumsiness in an attempt against the memory of the country's recent, painful history.

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Marti Llazo

    Speaking of Argentina's recent history (or at least Chubut province), and its sense of “memory” - here's a note on Argentina's continuing treatment of indigenous peoples and a reminder of how anyone might be treated once they come under Argentine control. Islanders, take note.

    “On January 10, 2017 Argentine armed forces opened fire on a community of Mapuche indigenous people in the Chubut region fighting to reclaim ancestral lands currently in the hands of the multinational corporation Benetton. According to local news, close to 200 gendarme guards blocked Highway 40 and proceeded to attack the community of Lof en Resistencia del Departamento de Cushamen, which comprises fewer than two dozen adults and five children.

    The attack left most of the community residents injured, two in a critical state. The armed forces ransacked the main house where the women and children were hiding, and detained them. At least ten members of the community were arrested and nothing has been heard from them since. Among the little news available about the events were reports of harassment and physical abuse of the women and children.”

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    Ignacio Rainao reported on February 12: ‘’Yesterday we were headed to work in Paillaco when suddenly the cops started to come out. They had been hidden on the edge of the road. They got us off our trucks and they were beating us. I was left without a shirt and they threw me at a blackberry-bush. They beat me until I yelled so that my father would hear me. My father was also beaten and asked that they let me go and stop hitting me. ‚Stop hitting my little boy!’ he cried. But they hit me more. I still hear the screams of my father in my head.“

    This is part of the testimony of the victims. They also denounce that, ‘’They had us in custody for many hours and on the way they’d kick us every once in a while. When we arrived at the police station in Cañete, we had no shoes and shirts. That night we were very cold.’’

    Meanwhile in the USA, 2nd mosque burns down, and a woman in JFK is imprisoned by passenger shouting anti-muslim profanities:

    Just a reminder of the recent execrable history of Chile and the USA. I'll post some US gov towards native american tidbits after Marti Llazo submits his next argie-racist vitriolic, totally one-sided drivel.

    If you believed Marti Llazo, you would think 205 countries are the Garden of Eden and free of even the Original Sin. And then one country was the epicenter of all evil in the universe. You must wonder how many argie women humiliated this guy... or was it men?

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    @ML, TrollBoy
    If you both agree that this treatment is wrong, have either of you signed the petition linked to in the article?

    Or is it all just political point scoring and you don't really care?

    Do you mind explaining what Macri is actually planning to do? Does 'floating holiday' mean it is celebrated on a nearby date instead of the actual day? I'm not sure why people are so strongly opposed to it if so.

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    Looks like Argentina's Conquest of the Desert is still on.

    @ DT “Does 'floating holiday' mean it is ....? ”

    An Argentine floating holiday is one in which you flush twice and there is still material floating in the bowl.

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Still not signed the petition, Marti? The link is right there in my comment, and you evidently had time to waste posting lame jokes.

    Your concern for the indigenous people of Argentina is touching.

    How about you, TrollBoy? Do you care about the ill-treatment of the Mapuche, or only about scoring points in an obscure internet forum?

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    Why not float March 1st...
    Or March 17th...
    Or June 13th...
    Or April 23rd...
    Or June 13th...
    Or November 5th...
    Or November 11th...
    Or November 30th...?

    Jan 29th, 2017 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    @DT “....Still not signed the petition....”

    If you think the argie government is going to pay any attention to such a petition, then your naivete is even more spectacular than previously imagined.

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 12:21 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    I will sign the petition when the British in this forum organize and open an online petition for the plight of the hundreds of thousands of non-British humans living in fear and fright right now in the UK. Having had their synagogues burned down, their faces kicked, their languages insulted, their mosques defaced. Online petition to protect them from the savage natives is needed!

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 04:26 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    So, two posters, two excuses.

    Marti, the government will certainly ignore the petition if no one signs it. If everyone says that, then nothing will ever change. It will only take 5 minutes, so why not sign it?

    Trollboy, what do you propose that such a petition should say? Unlike with the Mapuche, this is not something  done by the government. There are already laws against hate crimes in the UK. and there is no suggestion that they are not being enforced. You can't make a petition to abolish crime.

    Even if you really don't care, you should sign it anyway. If your government stops doing this, it will be one less thing for people here to accuse Argentina of.

    If don't even know what half of those are. Various saint's days, Bonfire Night, dunno what else?

    The only one I am sure is an official government celebration (if that is the right word), is Remembrance Day, and that is celebrated on the nearest Sunday to 11th November.

    So, perhaps you can explain to me why it is such a big deal?

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Marti Llazo

    It's funny (well, in a sad way) to see fidelito whinging about violence in other countries when his favourite government was evidently involved in the bombing and coverup of the AMIA centre

    Maybe DT can start an online petition to insist that Argentina do something about the bombing investigation. I am quite certain it will have prompt and decisive results, given this country's record of acknowledging online petitions.

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Vaca_Muerta_peTroLLium

    I thought you said I didn't know how to read when I accused you of ascribing to me loyalty to the K government.

    “when his favourite government was evidently involved”

    So is this also one of my ignorant misinterpretations?

    You lie so much you can't keep track of it all. Most Anglos at least have more an ability to lie-tally.

    How about starting a petition to get all those involved in faking information for the Iraq Dossier arrested and see their day in court?

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    What a charming pair of hypocrites.

    I don't suppose Marti cares any more about the AMIA bombing or Nisman's death than he does about the police violence against the Mapuche. It's just an excuse for another of his diatribes against Argentina.

    And I KNOW Trollboy doesn't care about the hate crimes against immigrants in the UK, since those immigrants are also foreigners and therefore according to him, evil people who should be banned from Argentina.

    You're each as hypocritical as the other.

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    You say...:
    “So, perhaps you can explain to me why it is such a big deal?”

    I say...:
    Geeee..., you are an inquisitive lad..., aren't you...?

    - The “fuss” was not so much because of the intended (and already abandoned) “floating” of the April 2nd. Malvinas' Veterans Day as mentioned in this article...

    - The “fuss” was because of the intended (and already abandoned) “floating” of the the March 24th. anniversary of 1976's last coup d'etat in Argentina...

    - That date has been chosen, by all the democratic forces in Argentina..., to represent the end of the Argentinean undemocratic paradigm..., perfecty defined by two short words from one brave judge..: “Nunca más” (Never again)

    -That date represent a nearly unique phenomenon in the World... A country that during the last 33 years of successive democratic administrations has brought to justice thousands of its former criminal leaders...The only other Country I know that has done something similar is Greece... Respect to them...

    - That date was recently sat unded attack by the current democratically elected administration In Argentina.... An administration that..., strangely enough..., includes many key civilian figures of the old dictatorship time...

    - That date certainly represents a lot for us Argentineans... That's why we so strongly opposed the “floating” of that date... And won...

    Anything else?

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    Thank you, that does make more sense.

    Congratulations on successfully opposing the change then, and even more so on bringing those bastards to justice.

    “Anything else?”

    Do you think Mart Llazo is right that signing the petition is pointless?

    Also, what happens on June 13th?

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Think

    What happens on June 13th...?
    Nothing this year...
    It was though HM Lizzie's official birthday last time I was in the UK... ;-)

    Speaking about the lass...
    Congratulations with that latest “God Save the Queen”... from Donald Trump.
    (Signed...: 1 million Britons :-)

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Kanye


    Actually, there has been recognition of the indigenous peoples and official apologies from various Commonwealth governments- quite unlike the systemic Argentine abuse, discrimination, and denial.


    Terrorists are NOT POW's and do not abide by any code of conduct.

    Feel free to dispatch them quickly and humanely. It's more than they deserve.

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 11:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Ah right. Apparently it is celebrated on the Second Saturday in June, so it was a particularly bad example for you to pick. ;)

    They have to discuss the petition in Parliament, but I suspect the visit will go ahead anyway. We've had state visits from worse rulers anyway, this one just gets more publicity. Still, at least it tells May not to cosy up to Trump TOO much.

    I prefer my laws to be universal. We have seen what happens when governments declare some people to be terrorists, and not worthy of rights and protection. 30,000 of them were 'disappeared' in Argentina, for example.

    Jan 30th, 2017 - 11:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    Interesting petition never the less..

    It had ~1,000,000 signataries some 12 hours ago..

    Nearing 1,600,000 signataries just now..!

    Geeeeee......... those lads and lasses are my kind of Anglos...!!!

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 12:11 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Kanye


    How do you define gunmen who shoot down civilians in a mosque or drive a truck through a crowd of holiday shoppers, indiscriminately killing women and children and the elderly?

    They are hardly “enemy combatants” and do not possess any superior moral prerogative that entitles them to mass killings of civilians.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 05:50 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    I can't decide if I should sign it or not. It's perfectly true that we have had state visits from worse leaders, and it's not really practical to refuse to deal with all the countries who enact oppressive laws etc. So I don't know.

    Certainly those are not enemy combatants. They are terrorists, and... I know what I'd LIKE to do to them, but what we SHOULD do is punish them according to the law.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 08:36 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Think


    By the way...:
    How does one define gunmen who bomb down civilians in temples or throw explosives over cities, indiscriminately killing women and children and the elderly?
    A) Luftwaffe...
    B) USAF...
    C) RAF...
    D) ...

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • The Voice

    D)… Roca?

    As celebrated on your currency.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Yes, and it's nearly always necessary. Because we have to compromise to get anywhere and achieving something is better than nothing.

    But I have signed it, because I don't want May to make the same mistake as Blair.

    And I would say, right now D) the Russian Air Force, E) the Syrian Air Force, and past and present a whole alphabet full of others.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Kanye


    You were referring to them as POW's, and deserving of that consideration.
    They are not.

    Try them as Terrorists and punish them accordingly.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree....

    And how do we clasify that “past and present a whole alphabet full of others?”

    As Terrorists?
    As Divine Winds?
    As Vaterland Helden?
    As the Best & the Brightest?
    As Defenders of Mother Russia?
    As King and Country Freedom Fighters?

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    Oh, I see. I think there are two different groups of people we are talking about. Firstly the terrorists in Western countries. These can be arrested and tried like ordinary criminals. And secondly the actual Daesh in Syria and Iraq, who are more like an army. They also chop off heads and slaughter innocent people, but if caught they are more like prisoners of war. What do you think should be done with them?

    Anyway, the question may not even arise, as in Iraq the Iraqi government can deal with any prisoners, while in Syria no Western country has any ground forces, and drones and air strikes take no prisoners.

    Also what do you think should be done with the men still locked up in Guantanamo? They are in a legal limbo as the US government won't allow them to be tried as criminals, but won't declare them POWs either.

    The ones you listed I would describe as soldiers serving their countries, whether they were fighting for good or bad causes.

    How would you describe them?

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    How I would describe them?

    I would describe them as persons made to believe they were “soldiers” serving their countries, fighting for the good cause...

    ... Very much as I would describe the current Muslim antagonic side individuals as persons made to believe they are “soldiers” serving their God, fighting for the good cause...

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    What about the ones who grew up in Western countries, but decided to slaughter people in a night club, or murder their coworkers, or stab people in the Tube?

    And how would you describe the Canadian who shot people in a Mosque the other day?

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Same shiat...

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jack Bauer

    @Capt. Poppy Good. Make no mistake, I too defend people’s right to complain, as well as free-speech, but 'sometimes' people abuse these rights ; while Trump’s past behavior is nothing to be proud of, neither was HRC’s gratuitous aggressiveness towards victims of her husband’s extra-curricular activities…if it was OK for Bill, and she 'accepted' it, why pretend to be disgusted by Trump ? Don’t like double standards, nor political correctness. Not a fan of BO – imo, he did a pretty good job resuscitating latent racism/ hatred; and Trump isn’t helping. BO exaggerated with EO’s, but in the same way Republicans could contest them, so can the democrats, now.
    @DT Hatred, not really; he inspired the ignorant and the poor with lies / false promises…took them 12 years to wake up. Don’t agree 100% with Trump’s bans, which clearly haven’t been well thought out. While US Law may not oblige him to separate himself from his empire, I think he should.
    The PT 'encouraged' ($$$) media outlets to turn a blind eye or to put a favourable spint on events. They threw billions (corruption) around. The ‘yellow’ press here is financed by the left, PT in particular, which pays bloggers to ‘plant’ their version of the news on the internet. Problem with the press ? usually biased and tainted by ideology.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    To me they seem to have something in common with those crazy people who shoot up schools, or cinemas or churches, and don't claim to be motivated by evil ideologies.

    But I really don't understand how anyone can support IS, knowing exactly how evil they are. We are told that the ordinary German soldiers did not know about the concentration camps, and that Japan was an authoritarian society where the government controlled all information. But IS make videos of their beheadings of aid workers and mass murders of people with slightly different beliefs, and advertise them on the internet. So the people who join them know exactly who and what they are supporting.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    You are just being silly now..., lad...

    - The “ordinary” German soldier may not have known about the details of the extermination camps... but they certainly knew the ultimate fate of millions of pow's and civilians on the Eastern front... They sealed that fates themselves...

    - The “ordinary” Japanese soldier did know how to “do” some millions of Chinese civilians in Manchuria in best Samurai sword style too...
    Not to speak about their little “ sadistic twist” with them Anglos in South East Asia... surely originated during the Shogunate troubles by a certain Mr. Perry...

    The “ordinary” RAF bomber pilot knew perfectly what the consequences of their “Terrorangriff” over millions of defenceless civilians in Cities as Hamburg or Dresden were...

    All perfectly “ordinary” folks bestialized by the notion of “Gott mit Uns”..., “God with Us”... or whatewer...

    NOTHING NEW OR SPECIAL about Daesh..., Al Qaeda..., IS or whatewer...

    Except for YOUTUBE...

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    I suppose you are right about that. How depressing.

    Jan 31st, 2017 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think


    Jan 31st, 2017 - 11:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    “To me they seem to have something in common with those crazy people who shoot up schools, or cinemas or churches, and don't claim to be motivated by evil ideologies”

    On the other hand, the organised and guided “Terrorists” employ tactics of mass murder and mass terror as extortion and intimidation, as a tool to achieve their goals.

    The “self-radicalised” often end up being directed, as a useful tool for a greater cause than their own dysfunction.

    The isolated “Columbines” of the world are quite different in motivation and character, not being linked by a common strategy or ideology.

    Even Bissonette, an online Troll who hated Muslims and abused women, is believed to have thought he was acting in support of Trump's anti-Islam policies and rhetoric.

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 12:40 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Agreed that the trained and organised terrorists such as the Paris attackers are not comparable to school or workplace shooters. But the 'self-radicalised' like the Florida nightclub shooter do seem pretty similar in some ways. The school shooters may not be linked by ideology, but they do seem to draw inspiration from previous incidents. Both groups share the desire for revenge over some perceived injury, and want to make a grand gesture that will bring them fame. And both usually intend to die in the course of their crimes.

    Bissonette is an interesting example. He may have thought he was acting in support of Trump or some kind of racist ideology, but obviously he was not following orders from Trump or, as far as we know, any other organisation. He picked some ideas that appealed to him, and stoked his hatred and chose his victims accordingly.

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    You are straying from the subject.

    The organised terrorists employing these heinous tactics directly related to a goal or specific extortion are correctly identified as “terrorists”.
    They are not “enemy combatants” ie. identifiable soldiers fighting other soldiers according to a code of conduct.
    Governments labelling “terrorists” do so correctly, and not for political expediency.

    Therefore, they should not be treated with the same leniency as legitimate captured soldiers fighting with conventional tactics.

    Nor should they be confused with mentally-ill individuals.

    Try them fairly. Execute them.

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    'Terrorist' is not a particularly well defined term, so I tried to cover all the options. If you only want to talk about a particular group of people you will have to specify exactly who you mean.

    I agree that terrorists in Europe or the US are not enemy combatants, but those fighting for IS in Syria or Iraq could be considered to be.

    And I'm sure you didn't mean to include ALL governments when you say “Governments labelling “terrorists” do so correctly, and not for political expediency”? In any case, I don't think that is always true of even my own government, and such labelling is often done by the press rather than the government these days anyway.

    As for the mentally-ill, are you including all spree killers in this category? And do you think that there is always a clear difference in motive between these and 'self-radicalised' terrorist attackers? Do you mind saying what you think it is, if so?

    Finally, I would prefer not to bring back the death penalty in Britain, even for terrorists. If the US want to execute them according their laws, I do not support it, but it's their business. Is this what you think should be done with the prisoners in Guantanamo?

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    I am really trying to focus only on what do we do about this sponsored and organised terrorism, that is correctly identified by that name.
    I don't think there is much issue identifying them as such.

    Apart from due legal process, they are not entitled to the same consideration and conventions addressing legitimate soldiers.

    The individual mass-shooters like those we see in the US, need to be treated on an individual basis.

    Please stay on topic.

    Guantanamo is another matter altogether. I may have an opinion on it, but it is not relevant to this discussion.
    There are many legal issues and moral
    values and individual events to be researched before I would draw a conclusion or venture an opinion in a public forum.

    Perhaps there will be an MP article on Trumps policies regarding Gitmo.

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Hepatia

    England will return the Malvinas within 25 years.

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    Hepatitus, you said that last year, and the year before. Is it a moving target or are you just completely thick?

    Feb 01st, 2017 - 11:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Marti Llazo

    Argie maths. It will always be 25 years in the future. Tomorrow never comes.

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 12:50 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Okay, but in that case there is not much more to say.

    And Gitmo is relevant because the inmates are in legal limbo, neither being put on trial nor treated as POWs. Trump promised to fill it up again, so I can only assume that a powerful minority of Americans want to deny other people the rights that they enjoy themselves.

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 08:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    Jeez and I thought this article was about a floating holiday!

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 01:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    Whatever is happening with Gitmo, the terrorists targeting civilians to promote an ideological agenda cannot be treated as POW's - there is no declared war, they do not follow any conventions, and the civilian targets are not military or engaged in military activity.

    How do you propose they be dealt with?


    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • golfcronie

    A smacked wrist?

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Think

    Geeeeeeeee......................................................................., them Anglo Turnips...
    Trying to troll them intelligent Anglos with their Infantile “Bad Ass” attitude...
    Just give them Muslim Jihadist exactly what they deserve (want)...
    The good auld Engrish “William Wallace” treatment...
    That will stop them...

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Do you think counselling would be effective? Personally I don't think it's going to do much good for convicted terrorists of the sort you describe.

    However, there is the question of what to do about people who have become 'radicalised', but have not yet committed any crime, or only minor crimes. The government cannot reasonably (or affordably) lock them all up for life, so perhaps your suggestion would be of some use for dealing with that group.

    I am afraid they have already got what they wanted. A US president who is prepared to declare all Muslims the enemy. External enemies are so useful for uniting people, on both sides of the fence.

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Lets put it this way...
    If I was into the “Jihadism” business“...
    Mr. Drumpf would be my bestest ”Wet Dream“...

    (If only Herr. Arnold would send Mr.Drumf away with a good old...: ”Hasta la vista ..., baby...;-)

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    Enuff of Anglo's.

    How would the enlightened Args like yourself deal with terrorists?

    Oh, right, have your very civil President, CFK ( Evita K, to Enlightened Enrique) accept generous trade concessions and payola, to drop the whole matter.

    Nisman was onto something with the AMIA bombing...

    Feb 02nd, 2017 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Enjoying your posts - it's just a matter of seeing things as they are, no beating around the bush.

    Feb 03rd, 2017 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    Oxford Dictionary

    “[mass noun] The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims”

    Every definition from various sources, dictionaries, governments, law agencies, define terrorism as having a political or ideological component.

    Feb 03rd, 2017 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I'm sure no one here disagrees that terrorism has a political or ideological component. We seem to have finished discussing the current terrorist attackers, so perhaps we can look at the less obvious cases.

    What do you think of terrorists who don't use quite such heinous tactics, like the IRA? Should they also have been tried fairly and then executed? Do you think there would be more or less chance of the Good Friday peace agreement succeeding if the UK government had done this?

    How about the army fighting for IS? The US is battling against them in Iraq right now, and there are a lot of them. If they capture IS fighters, what should they do with them?

    What about the British citizens who went to fight in Syria and then come back to Britain? The government and police usually don't know what they have done while abroad, but it's highly likely they were fighting for IS and may try to carry out attacks in Britain.

    And how about people who the government suspects are sympathetic to terrorism, but haven't actually done anything yet? It seems the lorry attacker in Berlin was in this category before his crime.

    Feb 03rd, 2017 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Pardon me for butting in, but the questions raised in your last 2 paragraphs caught my attention ..
    If the British Authorities are SURE that they went to Syria to join the IS, they should be arrested upon their return, questioned, and if they cannot prove they just went to participate in Granny's birthday party, they should be jailed, and possible traitors....and if people get queazy at the prospect of executing them, then they could be stripped of their citizenship and deported back to the ME. If they come back, THEN execute them.
    As to those that haven't done anything YET, but intend to, the problem is you usually find out only after the event....anyway, close monitoring of all suspicious activity and/or suspects could/might nip the rose in the bud...and once caught - if not killed during their crazy mission - they could be executed. They should be shown the same degree of mercy that they showed their (innocent) victims.

    Feb 03rd, 2017 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    No problem, you were the one who brought up the subject in the first place.

    The problem for the UK authorities is the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty', which I definitely want to keep. Many of these people are arrested on their return, but it isn't always easy to prove what they were doing in another country. Still, some have been jailed, and I'm sure any who aren't will be kept under surveillance.

    Oh, and the UK got rid of the death penalty for treason in 1998, but those laws are hardly ever used anyway; the original law dates from 1351 and isn't very relevant nowadays(!) Perhaps it is time to scrap them and create something more useful for modern times.

    The police and intelligence services here do seem to be doing a decent job at catching terrorists before they do anything. Eg:

    But terrorists caught beforehand don't usually get such long sentences as those who actually commit mass murder. Depending on what preparations they have made, it may not be really clear that they would have ever done anything. For example, suppose you catch someone who has made youtube videos supporting IS and has a bomb making manual, but nothing else. What punishment should they get?

    Or how about these three guys:

    They got different sentences, but none of them very long. Who knows what they will do when they get out? Or what they'll do in jail; try and convert other inmates probably.

    Feb 03rd, 2017 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    I believe we were talking about ideologically motivated, ruthless, random, indiscriminate mass, killings - defined as “Terrorism”, and the perpetrators being either being killed in the act of the crime or punished after a guilty verdict is rendered.

    Frankly, your other scenarios are irrelevant and only serve to divert discussion away from how we deal with these Terrorists with appropriate and pragmatic action.

    I understand that you wish to appear objective, and impartial, however.

    How do YOU think your buffet of random killings should be handled?

    Perhaps you should propose a graduated schedule of penalties for Terrorism, Attempted Terrorism, “not so serious”
    IRA bombings and mass murder, and the unfortunate “I don't like Monday's”, type of killings and attempted killings.

    “Think/voice” might be able to help you, as he believes some are justified and forgiveable.

    Feb 04th, 2017 - 03:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    We were talking about terrorists in general, and I strongly disagree that my other scenarios are irrelevant. How the government deals with people caught preparing for terrorism either by planning to go and fight in Syria, or planning attacks in the UK will affect what those people are able and willing to do in the future, and may also influence what other people in their communities choose to do.

    How they deal with fighters returning from Syria will determine whether those people are free to carry out attacks in the UK. I would like to prevent them becoming the people carrying out “ideologically motivated, ruthless, random, indiscriminate mass killings”.

    And since the situation in NI is now mostly resolved, we can draw lessons from it that may be applicable to the current conflict.

    Do you have a problem with being objective and impartial? I certainly want the law to be both those things, so although it's impossible to really be either, we can at least try to be when discussing what the law should say.

    To be honest, I am not really sure how potential terrorists should best be handled. On the one hand it seems wrong to give long punishments to people who have not actually done anything, and may never have done anything. On the other hand, if they are allowed out they have another opportunity to commit their crime. I suppose your suggestion of giving them counselling to try to 'deradicalise' them could be tried, but I don't have much confidence in that.

    And the effect on other people needs to be considered as well. For example, the three men in my last link were caught when the relative of one of them tipped off the police. People are surely more likely to inform on their friends and relatives if they believe those people will be punished fairly than if they think the punishment will be unreasonably severe.

    Feb 04th, 2017 - 10:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    It is clear that you have given this much thought. Even so, you have failed to draw a real conclusion.

    One thing that is imperative, this kind of terrorism needs to be stopped.

    Define “reasonable punishment”.

    Feb 04th, 2017 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Have you managed to 'draw a real conclusion' yet?

    I'm sure we all agree that terrorism must be stopped; how do you propose to do it? How would you deal with the people I mentioned above?

    And, define the crime, and I will tell you what I think is a reasonable punishment for it.

    Feb 04th, 2017 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    Question with a question - an evasion tactic.

    You have asked what I think, you've asked what others think.

    You object to answers by changing the goalposts, and implying that my answers and others are not appropriate.

    Your questions are obviously generated by your own identification of mitigating circumstances, overriding moral issues and values.

    Perhaps you would like to address them directly instead of having is try to infer what you are saying, and fishing for suitable or unsuitable answers?

    You might want to bear in mind that the Terrorists are driving trucks through families Christmas shoppers, or setting off bombs in crowds to further their own ideology.
    We as a liberal society are not obligated to assess their abusive childhoods, change their thinking, or rehabilitate them.

    Of course, if it is too complicated, and your counselling model is ineffective, you might want to pack them a lunch and send them home.

    Feb 04th, 2017 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    What exactly is your problem?

    I said way back at the beginning of this thread that terrorists should be treated according to the law. For those driving trucks into Christmas shoppers, etc, that would be life without parole in the UK, or, I assume, the death penalty in the US.

    What more is there to say? You keep bringing the topic back to this; apparently YOU are fishing for something. Do you expect me to change my answer?

    As for your 'abusive childhoods' and 'counselling', I have not suggested anything of the sort. If you want to have a debate, then discuss what I have actually said, not your own inventions.

    My questions are generated by what I have seen in the news - did you read any of the links I posted? Strangely enough I think it would be preferable to deal with terrorists before they commit mass murder, rather than afterwards.

    But if you are not interested in discussing this, or anything else related to the subject, you are not obliged to reply.

    Feb 05th, 2017 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    I am in agreement - treat them according to the Law.

    I said that too.

    If you will recall, you started defending them as needing to be treated as POW's lest we offend them so they remain stubborn ideologues.

    You questioned the very definition of Terrorism and stated that labelling people as such was only a political tool used to discriminate.

    How do we stop them? With every means at our disposal.

    “What is your problem” with that?

    They are ruthless cold-blooded killers that target civilians, but you worry they won't talk to us or respect us if we retaliate against the individual perpetrators.

    Got news for you - they don't respect us NOW, our values, our religions, our beliefs.

    No, I do not hate Muslims, nor do I think we should target Muslims.

    Daesh are the enemy. Not Muslims.

    Feb 05th, 2017 - 02:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I think we have been talking at cross purposes.

    I fully agree that terrorists should be treated as such, and said so. However, some people call the Daesh army, or the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, terrorists. The US was/is fighting wars against them, and if any of them surrender, they should probably be regarded as POWs. Not to avoid offending anyone but because that is what they are.

    Similarly, the men in Guantanamo Bay were mostly captured while fighting in Afghanistan, so should probably be regarded as POWs even though some of them were definitely terrorists.

    I brought both of these up before, but you just accused me of changing the subject, or 'questioning the definition of terrorism'. If you don't believe these are terrorists then we have no disagreement.

    As for “labelling people as such was only a political tool used to discriminate.” where did I say any such thing?

    Ditto for “you worry they won't talk to us or respect us if we retaliate against the individual perpetrators.”

    What I actually said:

    “And I certainly don't think the terrorists will see the west differently if they are treated humanely, nor do I much care. What I am concerned about are the rest of the people, who do not support the terrorists now, but might start to if they see the west as being just as evil.”

    “And the effect on other people needs to be considered as well. For example, the three men in my last link were caught when the relative of one of them tipped off the police. People are surely more likely to inform on their friends and relatives if they believe those people will be punished fairly than if they think the punishment will be unreasonably severe.”

    In other words, I am concerned about what the rest of the people think, the ones who aren't 'cold-blooded killers that target civilians'. Because our actions help determine whether they quietly support the killers, or report them to the police, or decide to become terrorists themselves.

    Do you disagree?

    Feb 05th, 2017 - 11:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Kanye


    “People are surely more likely to inform on their friends and relatives if they believe those people will be punished fairly than if they think the punishment will be unreasonably severe.”

    ”Because our actions help determine whether they quietly support the killers, or report them to the police, or decide to become terrorists themselves.“

    Of course I disagree.

    What could be ”unreasonably severe“ punishment?

    Short of torturing them to death or public beheadings, without trial.

    Those that informed, that lived amongst us, recognized the utterly abhorrent terrorist actions for what they were. They informed knowing that deadly force and any means possible would be used to stop the terrorists. What is ”fairly“?

    The best that could be reasonably expected is that they be gunned down in the street while fleeing their crime, or executed after a trial.

    The families that informed knew that.

    What considerations and assurances would you have given?

    Do you propose only light punishments or counselling the Terrorists a good trade off to encourage more informants?

    After all this, you say you agree, treat the Terrorists as Terrorists.

    However, As I said, you have moved the goalposts - we were talking about ”Terrorists” - those that carryout violent acts against civilian targets in Europe, to further an ideology.

    We were not discussing armed militants fighting our soldiers in the Middle East.

    Even those Daesh fighters are fighting a guerrilla style war - no uniforms when they choose and hiding amongst the civilian population and using them as shields, etc.

    Gitmo detainees are related to those sorts of actions and are a varied and different subject.

    You are talking about two different subjects, treatment of civilian-killing Terrorists in Europe, and now, how the West treats the Daesh guerrilla combatants (are there any 'regulars') they capture in the battlefield in the Middle East.

    I can't imagine they are all summarily executed, or all sent to Guantanamo.

    Feb 05th, 2017 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    The subject was originally introduced by Jack Bauer, when I mentioned that Trump was in favour of waterboarding suspects. He asked me how I thought terrorists should be treated.

    Since this is obviously more applicable to the terrorists in Guantanamo, I discussed both those captured in the Middle East and those in the West:

    So no, I am not 'moving the goalposts'. You have joined a conversation halfway through and are demanding that I only discuss part of the subject.

    And I agree the Daesh combatants are different to terrorists in Europe, which is why I said they should be treated differently in the first place!

    As for your question:

    “What could be ”unreasonably severe“ punishment?”

    For actual terrorist attackers, torture or indefinite imprisonment without trial are unreasonably severe. And both of these have happened at Guantanamo.

    I think that doing those things is not only wrong, but makes recruitment a lot easier for Daesh.

    But when I wrote that paragraph, I was talking about three men who planned to travel to Syria to fight there, but were caught before they could do so. None of them were accused of killing anyone, but rather of planning to fight for an enemy organisation. They all got light sentences; the longest was 7 years in jail. I think this was probably too lenient, but a life sentence IN THIS CASE would be unreasonably severe.

    You may think the family called the police because they 'recognized the utterly abhorrent terrorist actions for what they were'. I suspect that maybe they would rather see their relative in jail than getting killed in Syria or killing people there. Maybe it was a combination of the two. In any case, they probably did not expect the police to go in guns blazing, and they were right.

    Now those three men are in jail rather than out there killing people, so I consider it a good result.

    Feb 05th, 2017 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    “To be honest, I am not really sure how potential terrorists should best be handled. On the one hand it seems wrong to give long punishments to people who have not actually done anything, and may never have done anything.”

    Ok, “potential” (terrorists) is the key would you treat someone say, who was caught planning someone's murder, in order to speed up receiving an inheritance...I use this example, as unfortunately, it is quite common...anyway, if they don't get to carry out their evil deed because their plan is foiled before they get a chance to execute it, what makes them different from someone who is caught “after” the murder - just a matter of time ? and “that” is supposed to make them less dangerous, less responsible for the intended crime ?
    I don't think so, the fact they were stopped in time, makes absolutely no difference...if intent is proved, they should go down...same thing for a “potential” terrorist, found with plans to make a bomb and use it in some crowded to the idea of 'counselling' them, I think it would be as effective as pissing against the wind...counselling can perhaps work with small-time criminals, but those willing to take the lives of dozens of innocent people, for the sake of some crazy cause, and are prepared to die while carrying out their mission, won't respond to counselling....
    If there is no specific law to apply to 'potential' terrorists, that could be solved by applying the laws that cover those caught during (or soon after) the attack...why show these bastards any mercy ? To the HR activists who think we should be lenient on them, I can only suggest, place ankle-bracelets on them, then take a couple to live with you in your home, while you try to change their minds...

    Feb 05th, 2017 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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