MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Clarin daily owner Ernestina Herrera de Noble dies at age 92
Ernestina Herrera de Noble, widow of Buenos Aires daily Clarin's founder Roberto Noble, died Wednesday in Buenos Aires, the newspaper's online edition announced. Herrera took over as publisher when her husband, who had started the business in 1945, passed away in 1969. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rules“She was also a member of the International Press Institute and the Council of the International Museum of Television and Radio and the first Latin American publisher to join the Unesco Advisory Committee for Press Freedom”
Jun 15th, 2017 - 06:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Press freedom. Enrique hates Clarin.
I wonder why?
Hektor
Jun 15th, 2017 - 07:16 am - Link - Report abuse -4Good riddance of bad garbage! She was a cabaret flamenco dancer who broke up the first marriage of Roberto Noble (founder of Clarin) and disowned the children from that marriage. She married Roberto Noble and walked away with the paper when Roberto passed away two years later. When the paper run into financial problems, she appointed Hector Magnetto, a young accountant from the accounting department. He is the one who built the Clarin empire.
She together with the dictator Videla and the owner of La Nacion, stole the newspaper print paper (Papel Prensa) from the rightful owner Lydia Papeleo. Lydia was imprisoned during the military regime and tortured until she agreed to sell Paper Prensa at a very cheap price.Since they had the monopoly of the paper used too print the news papers, Clarin, La Nacion, and La Razon got the print paper at a fraction of the cost theyv charged the other newspapers driving them out of business.
Ernestina was one of the civilians together with Bartolome Mitre III, the owner of La Nacion, who strongly supported the military regime of 76-82. They also supported the Falklands invasion and these are the papers that lied to the Argentines reporting battles and victories that never happened.
Hector Magnetto is the most sinister character in Argentine History. Clarin and La Nacion are basically running a dictatorship in Argentina. The best thing that can happen to us is for Magnetto to die. One half of that evil due is gone. Magnetto is a cancer survivor and around 72.
Clarin lies. For example, they printed a story that Cristina bought ~ $100,000 from a shoe store in Via Venetto, in Rome. The leading paper in Italy, Correo della Sera, reprinted the story. The merchant sued the Italian paper and won a large settlement.
Again, good riddance of bad rubbish.
Hektor
@ Ah, Hektor, you lost me in the first paragraph when you assert that Ernestina kidnapped Roberto and forced him to marry her against his will. What a terribly weak and befuddled man he must have been. Still I expect the vigorous bonking made up for his forced imprisonment.
Jun 15th, 2017 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse +4You have some serious issues with women. Get some help. Your own mother was a woman.
Great fantasy story, though. Have you considered writing for telenovelas?
Sounds to me as if friend HEKTOR has been re-reading the Kirshner gang script and has published it verbatum!!
Jun 15th, 2017 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +4@Hektor
Jun 15th, 2017 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -5A well informed posting, Hektor.
No surprisingly, Elaine jumps and call it a “fantasy story.”
Elaine, of course, hopes that other misinformed readers believe her spiel without checking the facts.
The history of Clarin and Papel Prensa are one of the darkest chapters of the 1976-1983 civic-military dictatorship, of which Clarin was accomplice and supporter, under Ernestina Herrera de Noble.
Under her tenure--and that of Hector Magnetto--the newspaper has become a propaganda instrument at the service of Argentina's wealthy and powerful. To do that, the newspaper has renounced to every single principle of journalism, reaching its lowest points during the Kirchner government, when it published many front page stories that later revealed to be complete fakes.
@EM
Jun 15th, 2017 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +4So do you believe that a married man who leaves his wife for a single woman is an innocent victim? He was in a relationship not the single woman. Not very enlightened of you.
Of course you jump on the messenger and are incapable of making a case for debate. How could you? You don't know how to think for yourself just spread the propaganda you have been brainwashed into believing. Silly old fool.
@Elaine
Jun 15th, 2017 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -4You are attempting to divert attention from the serious part, that is the complicity of Ernestina Herrero's Clarin with the appropriation of Papel Prensa through intimidation, kidnapping and torture. Her stories with a married man, I don't give a hoot.
Oh, and in addition you call me “silly old fool?”
Why, Elaine, I did not know about your secret weapon! Definitely you have discovered the ultimate, infallible argument!
Well. At last, we are beginning to see the real Elaine emerging through the varnish of political correctness.
Hektor tells us that “Good riddance of bad garbage! She was a cabaret flamenco dancer ...”
Jun 15th, 2017 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +4I am afraid Hector has her confused with Evita (María Eva Duarte de Perón), who at the age of 15 ran off with a young musician to Buenos Aires, where she had a series of relationships. Through some of these men she acquired a number of modeling appointments.
By many Argentinos Hector's deranged view of Evita is alta traición.
ElaineB:
Jun 15th, 2017 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -5I have no idea what you are talking abut. Who said that Ernestina kidnapped Roberto? All I said is that Ernestina broke Roberto's marriage. Obviously, Roberto was a willing partner.
I do not have any problems with women, just this one. I also stated that Hector Magnetto, the CEO of Clarin Group who was appointed by Ernestina, is the most sinister character in Argentine history. If we follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, then I have serious problems with men.
Little J and ElaineB, if you choose to continue being ignorant about the Argentine reality, keep on reading Clarin and La Nacion. That is your problem and not mine. However, ignorance is not a virtue!
The reality is that the real power in Argentina is Hector Magnetto. He runs the country with an iron fist. Why do you think Macri was elected President? Magnetto chosed him by using Clarin, La Nation (with the willing participant of the moron of Bartolome Mitre III,) TN, Canal 13, Radio Mitre, La Razon (a paper owned by the Clarin Group,) and his cable provider as the propaganda machinery. The Clarin group has a monopoly of news in Argentina.
Why do you think Nestor Kirchner was elected president? Magnetto supported him. Why do you think that Menem did not go for a run-off against Nestor? Magnetto told Menem not to. By the way, Menem was elected president because, guess who?
Everyone is Argentina is terrified of Magnetto. For example, Lorenzetti, the Chief Justice of the Argentine Supreme Court, voted against Clarin, in one of the cases. All in the sudden, the Clarin group started wth news abut Lorenzetti being utterly corrupt. He never voted against Clarin again and the “news” about his corruption ceased.
I'm running out space so I have to cut this short.
They are running Cristina through the mud. If she is so corrupt as they say she is, bring her to trial now and televise the proceeding. Until then, they are nothing but innuendos and false charges.
Hektor
@ Hektor
Jun 15th, 2017 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +5“All I said is that Ernestina broke Roberto's marriage.” There you go again. Roberto broke his own marriage. Why was the woman responsible when she was not in a marriage but Roberto had made vows with another woman? Jeez.
You dance on her grave if you want to. It says more about the person you are.
TWIMC...
Jun 15th, 2017 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Meanwhile..., in the real Argentina... the Macri administation has just taken away the disability pensions from ~80,000 Argentineans...
Argument being that they aren't really disabled“...
These new ”able” Argentneans... include ALL 45,000 Down Syndrme sufferers...
Meanwhile..., in the real Argentina... the official national stastics for unemployment was released yesterday...
Highest of the last decenium...
Thank god for the upcming october election...
My compatriots and I will have a renewed opportunity to correct course after true bearings...
Welcome to this space to Sr. Hektor...,by the way...
Hope to read more from you in these pages...
Saludos cordiales...
El Think...
ElaineB:
Jun 15th, 2017 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse -1I agree with you about Roberto being responsible. However, we are talking about Ernestina. If we were talking about Roberto, I would have really given to him. How can he leave his wife of so many years? The one that worked with him to build Clarin! How can he disowned his children? He is the one, in my opinion, the one mostly responsible for the breakup, just because he met a very pretty women many years his junior. We all grow older an no longer physically attractive. He cannot discard his wife just because he might look like him. I'm a practicing Catholic and I do not believe in divorce. What he did is a mortal sin. However, it does not exonerate Ernestina. She also committed a mortal sin, imho.
Hektor
@ Hektor
Jun 15th, 2017 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Oh I don't believe it was a 'mortal sin' whatever that is but my point is that Roberto chose to stick his dick in another woman while married to another and he has to own that completely. That you chose to word your rant in a way that blamed the woman was the reason you lost me in the first paragraph (as I stated). It undermined the rest of your statement. Roberto could easily have made provision for his children but didn't and that was his responsibility.
I am not naive about Argentina and the politics having lived there for long periods over ten years. I know all about Nestor's cosy relationship with Clarin but your argument does not explain why CFK stayed in power when she fell out with Clarin. Surely Magnetto's 'iron fist' would have knocked her out of the game. The truth is the Kirchner's controlled far more of the media and used it ruthlessly.
Ignore Think. His hobbies include playing with his own shit and sniffing women's crotches. His four wives dumped him for being abhorrent so stirring shit here is all he has in life. Not once has he ever contributed anything of value to any discussion.
Hektor
Jun 16th, 2017 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0“They are running Cristina through the mud. If she is so corrupt as they say she is, bring her to trial now and televise the proceeding.”
Yes, she needs to go to trial.
Perhaps, she will be exonerated.
Enrique and others appear to think that's not the case.
He is adamant that she not be tried.
Hektor tells us, that
Jun 16th, 2017 - 12:21 am - Link - Report abuse +5“Hector Magnetto, the CEO of Clarin Group who was appointed by Ernestina, is the most sinister character in Argentine history”
Really?
Did he murder the governor of Buenos Aires?
Did he steal square kilometers of land from the indigenous people in northern Argentina?
Did he slaughter thousands of indigenous people in Patagonia?
Was he a Kirchnerista, robbing his country blind?
etc. etc.
“The Clarin group has a monopoly of news in Argentina.”
Oh, deary me. Does he also control all the anti-Macri, non-Clarin media?
Did you know that the royal family in the United Kingdom are actually lizzard-like aliens from a planet in another galaxy? that planet Y hidden on the opposite side of the Sun will collide with Earth within our life time? that England will return Zimbabwe to Norway within 24 years, unless ...?
Our friend Hektor and some of his cohorts seem to be under he impression that CFK is absolutely free of all responsibility and absolutely clean and un-polluted.
Jun 16th, 2017 - 12:42 am - Link - Report abuse +5A grave mistake in my opinion as if that were the case why are they ALL so keen to avoid going to trial, doing their utmost to withdraw Judges or Prosecutors who are following up their corrupt ways over many years in power, etc. etc.
If any law abiding citizen has absolutely nothing to hide he or she willingly goes to court and demands that the acusations against them be proven. However if you do have some shady dealings - to put it mildly - you will do all possible to avoid the courts investigating matters of corruption in which you have been involved. As for the Papel Prensa issue judgement has been passed and the parties involved have been found “not guilty”. End of story. However I'm afraid this will not be the case with CFK and her 40 bandits - although the actual numbers exceed this number by far -should they finally be put on trial, which hopefully will be the case.
@Hektor
Jun 16th, 2017 - 03:32 am - Link - Report abuse -7”If (Cristina) is so corrupt as they say she is, bring her to trial now and televise the proceeding. Until then, they are nothing but innuendos and false charges.“
The Argentine government's friendly judiciary won't do it. They looked everywhere they could--even with excavators--and found nothing. Keeping the investigations open, however, keeps the accused under the shadow of doubt--is she guilty or not?
Funny how a knowledgeable commentator gets ganged up by the crowd of Macri cheerleaders, who spew nonsense after nonsense while skilfully avoiding the central points.
See how Elaine ignores the Papel Prensa story and focus on relationship issues--just as People magazine.
See how Don Alberto candidly asks ”what poor Magnetto did?“ and ”what? A monopoly of the news?
Then Little J babbles about somehow Cristina withdrawing at leisure Judges and Prosecutors. Oh my!!
Then here comes Kanye protesting “Enrique and others” who are apparently preventing Cristina from being tried...bad boys!
Anyway. Keep up the good writing Hektor. MP needs you!
Ha ha Enrique, you are SO vain.
Jun 16th, 2017 - 04:47 am - Link - Report abuse +2You are NOT “preventing” anything.
You are merely flaccidly protesting her upcoming trial for corruption.
Powerless and removed, from the real Argentina.
“Chuckle chuckle”
Enrique Massot:
Jun 16th, 2017 - 04:54 am - Link - Report abuse -5Thanks for your nice comments. We are in complete agreement. Of course the judiciary is compromised especially with Bonadio and Lijo. Most of the “cases” of alleged corruption were started by those two judges.
Don Alberto and Little J:
It is up to the judiciary to bring Cristina to trial and not the other way around. In what parallel universe are you guys living? I know! The parallel universe of Clarin and La Nation. If they had the proof, don't you think they would have formerly brought charges against her? Don't you ask yourselves that question.
Don Alberto you are talking about the intimate relation Evita had with Agustin Magaldi when she was 15 and her coming to BA. You missed the main point. The tango singer should have been thrown in jail for statutorial rape. A minor cannot give consent willing or not! The rest of the stories is nothing but propaganda.
I imagine that Evita, a young adult, single, and attractive angel was no angel, either. However, have you heard anything like that about Grace Kelly, the Princess of Monaco. Her method of acting was to go to bed with her leading men in her pictures and with anyone that would promote her career. She is legendary. On the other hand, she was young, very pretty, a consenting adult. She did those things before getting married to Prince Rainier, just like Evita with Peron.
ElaineB:
Roberto noble was a pig, no question about it. However, a woman with scruples will never break up a marriage!
After Nestor died, Cristina fell out with Magnetto. How did she survive? You heard of Nisman? She almost didn't. In addition Magnetto found his match. Cristina has more guts and balls than most men. As I always said: “La Petisa es Brava” (The runt is tough.)
I never wanted Cristina back. We are mortals and she is not indispensable. We might not have a choice after the Macri disaster. The National debt under Cristina was 15% of GNP. After one year of Macri = 60%. Incredible!
Hektor
@ Hektor
Jun 16th, 2017 - 08:31 am - Link - Report abuse +3“However, a woman with scruples will never break up a marriage! ”
There you go again. She didn't force him, he was the one in a relationship who left his wife. He was culpable. I realise you were inculcated from birth to believe Eve was the temptress in the Garden of Eden and poor Adam was a victim but that is just a fairy story to subjugate women.
“Cristina has more guts and balls than most men.”
So a woman has to have male genitalia attributed to her to be thought of as tough? You are such a knuckle-dragger.
“After Nestor died, Cristina fell out with Magnetto. How did she survive? You heard of Nisman? She almost didn't.”
Yes, I told you that CFK fell out with Clarin, so I am well aware. Care to explain your comment regarding Nisman? I followed the story closely.
Enrique has not lived in Argentina for decades and has no idea about life there other than the Kirchner propaganda he reads. He is slavishly devoted to CFK and believes she has never done anything illegal. Kinda sweet but idiotic.
This is all very interesting. What is so sinister about Hector Magnetto? Just that he controls (a lot of) the media in Argentina so he can influence opinions and votes? Or is there more? He fell out with CFK during her first term, right? But she was still reelected, so clearly he is not all-powerful.
Jun 16th, 2017 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse -1There are other papers not owned by Clarin though, do they not have much influence?
@EM
Do you remember any examples of front page stories that were later revealed to be complete fakes? There was one mentioned about shoes but that does not seem particularly significant.
@EB
I agree that in this situation Roberto Noble was the worse of the two, as he made a promise and broke it. But pursuing a married man (or woman), is also wrong.
@Kanye
“You are NOT “preventing” anything.”
I believe that was his point. Has CFK herself or her lawyers tried to delay her trial? I have not heard of anything she has done.
DT
Jun 16th, 2017 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Are you that dense, or are you a troll
as well.
How man you stories did we read on MP
about CFK refusing to appear, delays, not wishing to travel, until faced with imminent arrest? And even then there was much political grandstanding, with 'spontaneous protests' requiring the deployment of hundreds of police.
AAC is her character, the 'lady' went, kicking and screaming, and protesting the whole procedure.
@Kanye
Jun 16th, 2017 - 01:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -3I remember one story about her refusing to go to court in Buenos Aires and turning up at her local court instead, supposedly because she did not wish to travel. She did go there next time after they threatened to arrest her. Were there more incidents?
I also read some stories about protests, but these have not delayed the trials as far as I know. One can hardly expect her not to protest about the trials, whether she is guilty or innocent.
@ DT
Jun 16th, 2017 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +3I didn't think I had to state the bleeding obvious but how do you know she pursued him? You don't know, neither do I or Hektor, so we don't need to be sanctimonious about it. What I objected to, and seems to have gone over your head, is that Hektor immediately cast the woman as the villain ”She was a cabaret flamenco dancer who broke up the first marriage of Roberto Noble (founder of Clarin) and disowned the children from that marriage.” Can you see how wrong that statement is? You haven't spent any time in South America so you probably are unaware that this would be normal thinking for the majority of men there. I just like to try to drag them into the 21st century.
Again, my point is that Hektor undermined his character assassination from the very first paragraph. The rest is nonsense too. Typical brainwashing of the Kirchnerites.
DT
Jun 16th, 2017 - 02:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Already, you concede your original statement is false, and you are fully aware she is using everything in her power to delay or resist the proceedings.
Would not answer questions in Court, intimidation tactics etc etc...
Surely you are aware of all this - you have been on MP EVERY DAY, posting multiple times on multiple threads, from before the vile woman was deposed, until the present.
I honestly think you are a dramatic device contrived by Think, a charade to generate conversation and perpetuate his arguments.
Something along the lines of, “Gosh, Elaine, perhaps Think is right, CFK is just misunderstood... ” and that sort of thing.
The 'wide-eyed boy' persona is wearing a bit thin.
What is trying to be said here...that a cabaret flamenco dancer didn't pursue an older... multi millionaire...?
Jun 16th, 2017 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you having a laugh....?
Now...I'm not a betting man, but...
Hektor is a practicing Catholic who do not believe in divorce, so he judges everybody else from his prejudices - sweet.
Jun 16th, 2017 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hektor also thinks that anything, which is abominable for a religious fanatic must be caused by the eternal sin of women, while men are excused as the poor victims of the deplorable Jezabels, they are; “a mortal sin” - jeeeez.
Hektor, your religion is no better than any other persuasion held by any other gullible fanatic.
- - -
Hektor tells me, that “You missed the main point. The tango singer should have been thrown in jail for statutorial rape.”
Missed the main point?
The main point is that you condemned a woman because ahe was a cabaret flamenco dancer - in your opinion obviously low life - and that Evita was the same, performing on a stage. How awful for a catholic hypocrite.
Hektor also seems to think that Evita and Ernestina Herrera are identical to Grace Kelly. Just so you know it, they aren't.
Why do you bring Grace Kelly into the debate, except as a straw (wo)man?
Hektor also writes about Don Alberto: “The parallel universe of Clarin and La Nation.”
You clearly pretend to know all about it, so tell me, Hektor when did I last read Clarin? La Nation?
As for Hector Magnetto; as DemonTree pointed out, Cristina the non-lawyer was reelected [in a land slide election], so clearly he is not all-powerful. If he couldn't even prevent her re-election, how allmighty is he?
- - -
Enrique Batshit Crazy diverts us with “See how Don Alberto candidly asks ”what poor Magnetto did?“ and ”what? A monopoly of the news?”
Reekie does not live in Argentina and has all his disformation from kirchnerista media. I live in Argentina and have a first hand knowledge of what happens here through a number of media, from my first hand experience, from my friends.
Reekie does not provide anything but loosely based opinion, because he hasn't even been staying in Argentina for an extended period these last 30 years.
@EB
Jun 16th, 2017 - 05:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're not going to claim that she didn't know he was married, are you? She's hardly blameless, however you look at it. I agree with you about Hektor's initial comment, but he did agree that Roberto was responsible, and he rest of his accusations are a lot more interesting.
@Kanye
I said I could think of ONE occasion when she tried to delay proceedings. Were there more? You haven't named any. If she is just being generally uncooperative I don't find that particularly persuasive.
The truth is that when I started posting here I was pretty sure she was guilty. Now I am NOT sure. The prosecutions have been dragging on for months and months with no real evidence appearing; compare this to the corruption cases in Brazil where new evidence and accusations seem to emerge daily, and several people have already been jailed.
Last year you praised me for being open-minded, but it seems you don't admire it so much when it leads me to disagree with you? Is it some kind of psychological defence mechanism to believe that everyone who disagrees with you must be the same person?
I'm amused that you think I could possibly be a 180 year old Argentine, especially since I've never even been there... actually, it must be perfectly obvious to you that I'm a native English speaker, so do you believe Think is really British, or what?
@ DT
Jun 16th, 2017 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I am not claiming anything. I merely pointed out the idiocy of Hektor's first paragraph and why it undermined his whole post. You are the one misinterpreting my posts.
And his post is basically a nonsense throughout. I am sure you will expect everyone to explain the whole history to you but you could always do a little research yourself. After all, it is useful to have some knowledge of the subjects being debated if you want to contribute. You have stated many time you know nothing about Argentina and have never been there but clearly you have an interest so why not spend some time researching. I have spent 10 years and I am not doing all your homework for you.
@DT
Jun 16th, 2017 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse -2DT wrote: “Do you remember any examples of front page stories that were later revealed to be complete fakes? There was one mentioned about shoes but that does not seem particularly significant.”
Absolutely. The shoes story is nothing. There have been much worse, and if you google “mentiras de Clarin” you will see a lot of useful material. However, my two favourites, published in the months leading to the national election of 2015:
1. On March 31, 2015, Clarin published a front page, large-headline story about Maximo Kirchner and Nilda Garre having secret bank accounts in Felton Bank (U.S.) containing US$ 61 million, and another in Morval Bank (Cayman Islands) with US$ 19 million. On the same day, Kirchner refuted the story, and later both banks officially declared the nonexistence of both accounts.
2. On May 14, 2015, Clarin again claimed, on front page, that then economy minister Axel Kicilloff was earning 400,000 pesos as YPF director. Hours later, YPF declared that Kicilloff's work as director was without pay, but the lie was repeated for hours by TN, Radio Mitre and the other media belonging to Magnetto's holding. Clarin did publish a correction...on page 27.
Of course, Clarin never asked Maximo Kirchner, Nilda Garre or Axel Kicilloff for their input before publishing those stories. Clarin makes a joke of such journalistic principles. Also, it makes profuse use of the conditional (which is forbidden in its own style manual) to tarnish the reputation of its targets while avoiding legal consequences.
Just as an aside, Clarin will set aside any comment I may write “for moderation” where it remains never to be seen. I still try again every few months--same result.
@Elaine
Elaine, I need to tip my hat. You succeeded in reducing relevant information posted by Hektor into a gossip matter. You deserve the “master of deception” award.
DT
Jun 16th, 2017 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +1”Open-minded and questioning is one thing, but after 2 years of daily interaction here, and having the same exposure to materials and articles, and having links handed to you to peruse and research at your leisure - you still can't seem to draw even the simplest conclusions or assert anything at all.
You only question the veracity of others.
The only exception that I can see is that you are adamantly against Brexit and don't respect or accept the majority who voted for it - just like Think.
At least Elaine who does not agree with it has acknowledged that it was arrived at democratically and the UK must go forward United to making the best of it.
You appear more and more to be a sower (sewer) of doubt, without convictions of your own.
ElaineB writes: “You haven't spent any time in South America so you probably are unaware that this would be normal thinking for the majority of men there. I just like to try to drag them into the 21st century.”
Jun 16th, 2017 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I suggest they should first be dragged out of the Victorian era, then into the 20th century before you try to drag them further forward.
I live here (in Argentina, that is), remember?
@DA
Jun 16th, 2017 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -3So impressed with the progressive views exposed here by ElaineB and Don Alberto.
Indeed I totally agree with the need for the Argentine society to move forward, and have many relics of the old times such as machismo, homophobia and other plagues reduced and eliminated.
Argentina has made significant progress during the Kirchner government, notably with the legalization of same-sex marriages.
However, much remains to be done. I trust not much will be happening under the current government, which appears to be more interested in making good deals for the team of CEOs than making society evolve.
And how could them, when their goal is to increase unemployment to ensure workers become fearful and accept to work in worse conditions and for lower wages?
First trimester of 2017: Unemployment shots up to 9.2 per cent according to Macri's INDEC.
In metropolitan Buenos Aires, unemployment is 11.8 per cent.
This are the highest rates of the last decade.
Reality always trumps the narrative.
@EM
Jun 16th, 2017 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Thanks. I found an article about it in English: http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/192286/clar%C3%ADn%E2%80%99s-lies-dirty-tricks-and-extortion and as far as I know the Buenos Aires Herald was not a particularly pro K paper.
I also found the articles you mentioned and YPFs denial, published the same day. I am surprised using the conditional lets them avoid legal consequences, I'm pretty sure in England similar things such as writing 'allegedly' gives journalists no protection at all.
However, Clarin doesn't have a monopoly these days, and CFK was reelected despite their opposition. Even Macri's election was very close. So Hector Magnetto is not some all-powerful dictator as Hektor claimed.
Also I wasn't impressed by CFK trying to bring the Papel Prensa company under government control; that would just give the government the same power and influence that Clarin and La Nacion had. She should have a passed some kind of anti-monopoly law so it could stay in private ownership but be independent of any unfair influence.
@Kanye
One year, but who's counting? I'm puzzled how I have managed to get into so many arguments here, including with you (and with Think, LukeDig, etc), if I really have so few convictions of my own.
Your problem is not that I haven't drawn any conclusions, it's that my conclusions do not match your own. Too bad.
You don't contribute much to the UK threads, probably because unlike me you don't have much knowledge of or interest in UK politics, but strangely enough I have much more definite opinions on things I do know well and understand. As for Brexit, I have said before that I accept the result, that we do have to leave the EU because of the vote, and that we WILL leave the EU, and I was saying that back when the Brexiters were still paranoid and claiming the government would find some way to avoid it. And I will keep saying it as many times as necessary until everyone gets it through their thick heads.
Enrique Batsh1t Crazy goes on blabbering about what he knows nothing of.
Jun 16th, 2017 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“In metropolitan Buenos Aires, unemployment is 11.8 per cent.”
Why?
Because the Macri government rid itself of almost 100,000 ñoquis, kirchnerista supporters who received a pay check every month but did not work. They only showed up to collect their pay check.
Add to that the necessary clean up after Cristina the non-lawyer.
If you had any real connection to Argentina, you would know what actually happens here.
Reekie again and again avoids answering the simple question: When did you last spend an extended period of more than 30 days with us here in Argentina?
@DA
Jun 17th, 2017 - 12:39 am - Link - Report abuse -5Don Alberto, you are out of date. The alleged ñoquis (who were quickly replaced by as many Macri-loyal employees at higher rates of pay) were fired within the first six months of 2016.
You should have read more carefully. The numbers I gave are for the first trimester of 2017. Nothing to do with ñoquis but instead related to the general fall in consumption and the indiscriminate imports opening that is killing small and medium size enterprises at quick pace.
Almost two years after taking office, the “pesada herencia” tale with which Macri tried to blame the CFK government for the consequences of his own policies is long past its due date.
In any event, president Macri will need to answer, sooner or later, for the Curreo Argentino frustrated deal, for increased unemployment, for the out of control financial speculation, for the exponentially increased foreign debt, for the disabled pension cancellations, and for many other deeds.
Oh, and would you include other MP commentators for proof of an “extended period of more than 30 days?”
I understand many of them do not live or travel to Argentina. Or, is your requirement limited to those who do not agree with your backward views?
In any event, I do not want to be rude, but you may very well imagine what I am saying to you without the need to write it.
Sucker.
@ Don Alberto
Jun 17th, 2017 - 09:01 am - Link - Report abuse +1That is EM's Achilles heel, his lack of any real experience of Argentina. He has been away for decades and apparently cannot go back there. He didn't specify the reason - flights are relatively cheap from Canada - so I am guessing ill-health or a visa problem. I can completely understand that he doesn't want to return permanently as his family are Canadian and settled there but given how much time he devotes to a country he no longer really knows, visits would surely be a priority. So, effectively exiled, he can only dream of the country of his origin. I understand that but like most expats he has an idealised version of 'home'. He seems intent on only reading propaganda that fits with his dream version of Argentina. Honestly, if he was credible he would not be a Kirchner-corruption denier. The facts are there but he brushes them aside and starts ranting about Macri. All those years the Kirchner's stolen from Argentines and he pretends it never happened. If he actually went there and spoke to Kirchner supporters they would tell him it is true - they just don't mind if their candidate steals! They applaud it.
I would leave the old fool to his fantasy. He is harmless and rather pathetic. Reduced to writing ”sucker' like a 14 year old.
Enrique Batsh1t Crazy goes on blabbering about what he knows nothing of.
Jun 17th, 2017 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +1”Oh, and would you include other MP commentators for proof of an “extended period of more than 30 days?”
No, only those who pretend to be Argentinos and pretend to know what is going on inside our borders. You are far away, and except for what you read on the walls of publkic toilets and kirchnerista fake news and half truths (like the people of Germany poorer than the Argentinos), haven't got the slightest knowledge about the country as it has been these last 10 years since the non-lawyer were first elected, and much worse when, from 2010, she ran amok after Néstor died and thus could no longer control her rage and destruction of the national economy.
“The ñoquis were fired within the first six months of 2016.”
And now they are back in their phony “jobs”? if not, they still count as unemployed today.
Enreekie also writes about pensions. Tell us, Reekie, who expropriated people's savings, the pension funds?
Enrique tells us “Almost two years after taking office ...”
Reekie doesn't even know when the Macri presidency, which from the very start has been in minority in both houses, took over. It was in mid December 2015, so not almost two years.
Your idea, that the Macri government in a year and a half should be able to clean up after ten years of mismanagement is demented. The Cristina government made people “rich” by indebting them by printing more and more worthless money without coverage in a indústri Argentina production, which for every day got more and more problems exporting for foreign currency, much needed to buy eg. LNG to make up for falling domestic production.
Tell us, Canadian who hasn't been here for ages, what were the inflation percentages for the years 2009 through what is expected today?
ElaineB. and Don Alberto;
Jun 17th, 2017 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I have to agree with both of you:
http://en.mercopress.com/2017/06/08/why-many-argentines-continue-to-support-corrupt-cristina-fernandez/comments#comment468390
Sr. Massot...
Jun 17th, 2017 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -3You may very well imagine what I am saying to you without the need to write it....
;-)))
@Don Alberto
Jun 17th, 2017 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -2The ñoquis have been more than replaced, http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1960252-el-empleo-publico-crecio-y-alcanzo-el-nivel-que-dejo-el-kirchnerismo so no, they are not contributing to the unemployment figures. The logical conclusion is that the jobs have been lost from the private sector, hardly the result anyone would have wanted.
Granted that 1.5 years is not enough time to fix the economy, but the increased poverty, unemployment and inflation does not suggest that it is moving in the right direction. What recovery there is has been slow and uneven. Macri is doing different things to CFK, but that doesn't mean he is doing the right things.
@DemonTree
Jun 18th, 2017 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse +3Problem is, ducky, that according to Enreekie and Hektor, you cannot trust La Nación, they are in the sinister pay of the Macristas.
2015.03: En los últimos 5 años, los precios subieron 254% (148%) en Mendoza
http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/en-los-ultimos-5-anos-los-precios-subieron-148-en-mendoza-840989
The inflation in 2016 was a huge 46% dropping to ...
2017.04: Argentina's 12-month inflation through April was 27.5%
http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/en-los-ultimos-5-anos-los-precios-subieron-148-en-mendoza-840989
2017.05: Inflación Enero: 1,3%; febrero: 2,5%; abril: 2,4%
http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/en-los-ultimos-5-anos-los-precios-subieron-148-en-mendoza-840989
2017.05: Privados elevaron a 21,6% las expectativas de inflación para 2017
http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/en-los-ultimos-5-anos-los-precios-subieron-148-en-mendoza-840989
2017.05: Inflación = 1,3%.
http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/en-los-ultimos-5-anos-los-precios-subieron-148-en-mendoza-840989
During Macri's first full year as a president, he had to go by the budgets from Cristina, you cannot change the whole bloody national economy just like that.
It seems, however, that the Macri government has got the gallopping inflation reined in. What is missing is investment. After the horrible Cristina rein, one cannot expect investors to trust that she - or her minions - won't return to power and either rob you of your investments and return (does the YPF & Petersen Group ring a bell?) or prevent you from getting your profit in anything but Argentine pesos, which make for very poor toilet paper.
@DT
Jun 18th, 2017 - 01:41 am - Link - Report abuse -3You got it right. Nobody pretends a perfect country in 15 months. However, a simple step in the right direction would be appreciated by the Argentines.
However, the steps being taken so far are all in the wrong direction. Unemployment is growing, consumption is dropping, economic activity is faltering, indebtedness has increased exponentially mortgaging Argentina's future, and financial speculation is bleeding the country of any genuine resource that is left.
MP cheerleaders (see above) who keep focusing on how bad the CFK government was are increasingly out of sync with Argentines, who have already left behind the famous “pesada herencia” and are increasingly opening their eyes with each new abuse.
It's a difficult task to try and cover the sun with one hand.
Enrique,
Jun 18th, 2017 - 02:17 am - Link - Report abuse +2“You got it right. Nobody pretends a perfect country in 15 months”
Ha ha,
nobody but Enrique and the K's have been preaching that Macri should have undone a decade of K corruption and incompetence in 15 months and led the country to prosperity.
Oops, I meant in “nearly 2 years”, like Enriqueta said yesterday in the other thread.
Really Enrique, you talk out of both sides of your mouth.
@Kanye
Jun 18th, 2017 - 03:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am still waiting for “Kanye” to provide support for his (unfunded) and malicious allegation that I am a “Communist” and a “criminal.”
Of course, “Kanye” shoots from the dark; he launches his allegations from behind a nickname.
Come on, “Kanye.” Start taking responsibility for what you write.
Still waiting for you to deny what I have deduced from your years of repeating propaganda and denouncing others.
Jun 18th, 2017 - 04:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hi Everyone:
Jun 18th, 2017 - 05:22 am - Link - Report abuse +1I just got back. I was out with my wife...Friday ad Saturday. Tomorrow, is father's day. I'll be out with wife and children.
Are you still posting? The story is over
I cannot respond to everyone. However, someone said that Hector Magnetto does not have monopoly, anymore. Are you serious? Let's see: Clarin, La Razon, TN, Canal Trece, Radio Mitre, and the cable providers. In 2006,el Grupo Clarin bought 60% of Cablevision, merging it with Multicanal, the second biggest Argentine pay TV operator, forming one of the major cable companies in the world. Clarin has a monopoly of news in Argentina.
ElaineB:
Get off your horse. You are choosing my first paragraph trying to discredit everything I said. :) What you are doing is so transparent? You are shooting yourself in the foot, btw. Are you sure you are not a troll employed by Clarin. How else can we interpret your intentions, after the story is over (no longer on the front page.) However, let me answer you.
You do not know me. Period! You cannot find anyone more pro woman and women issues than me. I have participated in many but many pro-women marches. I strongly believe in equal pay for equal work! The women is the owner of her body. The decisions about abortions, having babies, how to give birth is up to woman and the woman - it is her body. Period!
I do not want a weak women for my wife. I want a strong woman that is far more intelligent than I. Since we are a team, I benefit because I become more intelligent.
I am very happy with my wife of 45 years. She is a physician and more intelligent that me. I also believe that men have failed in positions of leadership. I believe that is time for women to take over, they cannot do worse that men.
I believe that women should be cherished and put on a pedestal. After all, women are our mothers, sisters, fiancees, wife, daughters, and the mother of your children.
You do not know me! You are spewing stereotype after stereotype.
Hektor
Hektor
Jun 18th, 2017 - 05:31 am - Link - Report abuse +1Did your wife compose this diatribe?
Gordo1
Jun 18th, 2017 - 06:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your comment does not deserve an answer.
Hektor
@ Hektor
Jun 18th, 2017 - 09:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh dear, you married a woman so you must be a feminist. That is like a racist saying 'I have a black friend“. You see, you are not at all interested in learning why your words were sexist but only want to defend your own ego by telling me you love women. Ugh. If you truly are 'pro-women's equality you need to really think about how ingrained sexism is in your use of language.
Sure I don't know you and you don't know me so we can only form opinions based on the words used in our posts. Your opening post on the death on a woman was ”Good riddance of bad garbage! She was a cabaret flamenco dancer who broke up the first marriage of Roberto Noble (founder of Clarin) and disowned the children from that marriage. ” and the rest of the post didn't get any better. It is surprising that a man of your age would write something so breathlessly childish.
You are sexist and you cannot even recognise it in your own words.
@Don Alberto
Jun 18th, 2017 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse +1If La Nación is so pro-Macri, they are hardly likely in invent stories to make him look bad. Besides, I was replying to you, not to Enrique and Hector. Do you believe La Nación is in the sinister pay of the Macristas?
I'm not sure what your point is about inflation, but you can only post one link per comment. If you want more then leave off the 'http://' so it does not become a live link.
So far as I know inflation had increased under CFK, then when Macri took over he removed the restrictions on the exchange rate and it jumped to over 40%, and stayed very high for over a year, only falling back to the previous (still high) level last month. I think removing the restrictions on foreign currency was necessary, but like other areas, Macri didn't handle it in the best way.
I agree that getting investment will be a problem in the circumstances, but Macri didn't say so during his campaign. He promised his voters a rain of investments, so was he lying or just naive?
@Hektor
There are other newspapers in Argentina aren't there? Infobae, Crónica, Enrique's favourite Página 12, and La Nación is not owned by Clarín although both seem to support Macri.
There are other TV channels owned by other companies, Clarín doesn't even have the most popular one. Also didn't CFK pass a law that forced them to sell some of their holdings? Seems like they are still overly influential, but as I said, CFK was reelected quite comfortably despite Magnetto's opposition.
Where do you get your own news from if Clarín has a monopoly?
Rekie said: “the steps being taken so far are all in the wrong direction.”
Jun 18th, 2017 - 12:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Inflation dropping from 34.4% in 2014 to 21.6% in 2017 is all in the wrong direction?
@DemonTree
Of course I don't believe La Nación is in the sinister pay of the Macristas, I was teasing Reekie.
When one cleans out after a decade of mismanagement one can choose to do it over several years, thus dragging out the pain, or one can choose to do it in one sweep with the broom, which hurt a lot. Whatever way you choose, half the audience will condemn you. Do and be damned, don't and be damned.
The constant, high ... higher ... very high inflation during the last decade was one of the most damaging components of the national economy. Bacause of it, the previously reasonably successful Indústria Argentina was unable to export its products.
The point about the inflation is that it looks to have been reined in.
Macri did promise lots of investments within a short time. As far as I can judge, he expected foreign (and domestic) investors to respond positively and fast to his payment of long overdue debts and releasing the peso/dollar exchange rate. He was naive when it came to his expections of investors not fearing a return of the monster.
- - - -
I see five links in the post you refer to, but they are all a copy of the first one - good joke :)
Let's give it another try:
2017.04: Argentina's 12-month inflation through April was 27.5%
en.mercopress.com/2017/05/11/argentina-s-12-month-inflation-through-april-was-27.5
2017.05: Inflación Enero: 1,3%; febrero: 2,5%; abril: 2,4%
losandes.com.ar/article/esperan-en-mayo-una-inflacion-menor-al-2
2017.05: Privados elevaron a 21,6% las expectativas de inflación para 2017
losandes.com.ar/article/privados-elevaron-a-21-6-las-expectativas-de-inflacion-para-2017
2017.05: Inflación = 1,3%.
www.iprofesional.com/notas/251043-Encuesta-bolsillo-cuaacutentos-argentinos-llegan-a-fin-de-mes-con-lo-justo-y-coacutemo-impacta-una-inflacioacuten-en-baja
Damon Tree:
Jun 18th, 2017 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Paper like Cronica and Infobae are carbon copies of Clarin. These people are terrified of Magnetto and they wouldn't dare contradict him. Victor Hugo is an independent voice, for example. However, Clarin using their corrupt judges tried to sue Victor Hugo to silence him.
The only national independent papers are Pagina 12 and Diario Registrado, but these papers do not have a significant circulation to have any impact.
Magnetto said the following, many years ago when the term of President was 6 years: “Year 1 and 2, we are with Government to try get the most from them. Year 3 and 4 we go against the Government to again try to extract the most from them. On years 4 and 6 we try to overthrow the Government to start the process again.
In a meeting with Menem, when Clarin was getting Canal 13, Menem suddenly told Magnetto: ”What you want is my office.“ ”Cargo menor” (minor position) responded Magnetto.
Beside Lorenzetti. Clarin went after Hugo Moyano by printing articles about the different accounts Moyano had in Switzerland. After Moyano decided to do what Magneto told him, the newspaper articles ceased. Same thing with Lanata. He is the one that first warned the Argentines about the Clarin empire. Lanata admitted thatMagnetto bought him. Make no mistake about it. Magnetto is the most sinister character in Argentine History. As long as he lives, we are screwed in Argentina.
Clarin has a monopoly on the news in Argentina. They have the majority of the cable providers. These providers carry the Clarin approved channels in most of the country, where TN is the only news they get.
It seems (I emphasize “seems,” because it is too early to notice a trend - way too early. I'm not making any predictions, yet) that Cristina made peace with Magnetto. They are easing off with Cristina. Again it is too early to see a trend. However, it will keep with Magnetto philosophy that at first they are with the Government and then try to bring it down.
Hektor
@Hektor
Jun 18th, 2017 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It seems (I emphasize “seems,” because it is too early to notice a trend - way too early - that you get all your news from Clarin - how will you else explain that Clarin has a monopoly on the news in Argentina.
It seems (I emphasize “seems,” because it is too early to notice a trend - way too early - that you forgot to answer the questions asked, you just “talk” about something else. It's a version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
@Hektor
Jun 18th, 2017 - 04:02 pm - Link - Report abuse +2What is your view on chemtrails? Do you think Prince Phillip killed Diana by directing rays with a wok from the roof of Buckingham Palace? You are talking nonsense conspiracy theories without a shred of evidence.
Do the people here remember how the Kirchner's controlled the majority of the media? How they would change the timings of programs? One memorable time ordering the football to kick off late to coincide with a documentary that was unfavourable to CFK.
And since Kirchnerites don't believe anything written in Clarin now (though they did until CFK fell out with them) how can it wield power over them?
@ ElaineB
Jun 18th, 2017 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2you cannot ask unpleasant question to kirchneristas. If you do, they pretend they aren't there.
In 2008 the hitherto cordial relations between Kirchnerism and the Clarín Group soured during the conflict over higher export tariffs. Subsequently, Magnetto was one of 200 individuals investigated by the government for money laundering, mainly related to tax evasion.
Doesn't that look exactly as if Kirchner abused his power to hit at political opponents, among them Magnetto?
In the middle of 2010, Lidia Papaleo, the widow of David Graiver [who owned Papel Prensa from 1973 until his death in 1976], accused Héctor Magnetto of his actions in the proces of buying Papel Prensa Ltd., she declared that Magnetto was the key instigator of her torture by the police in 1977, after Graiver's death, and that Magnetto had coerced her and had threatened her and Graiver's daughter with death in order to force the family to sell the Papel Prensa company - not to Magnetto, but to Ernestina Herrera de Noble y de Bartolomé Luis Mitre III.
So, if we are to believe Lidia Papaleo, 34 years after the alleged fact, she suddenly remembers that she was coerced and threatened to sell Papel Prensa?
2010? wasn't that the year when Néstor Kirchner first were mortally ill, and subsecuently died and thus no longer were able control the professional liar Cristina, who hated and probably still hates Magnetto? how come that Lidia Papaleo suddenly remembered what she claimed had happened in 1977?
Magnetto cuenta los pormenores del enfrentamiento con los gobiernos de Néstor Kirchner y de su mujer, Cristina Kirchner.
In the book “Así lo viví” (2016), Magnetto tells the details of the confrontation with the governments of Néstor Kirchner and his wife, non-lawyer Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner.
@Don Alberto
Jun 18th, 2017 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Of course I don't believe La Nación is in the sinister pay of the Macristas, I was teasing Reekie.”
Do you agree then, that the jobs have been lost from the private sector and the rise in unemployment is real, not due to ñoquis?
I agree with you, high inflation is very bad for the economy, but it was at about 25% before Macri took over. He immediately brought in two policies that were almost guaranteed to increase it drastically, and it duly rose to over 40%. It's only now that it has fallen back to the same level as when he became president. Given the damage high inflation does, maybe this is one change that should have been done more gradually.
Macri did have to make some changes, but I'm not convinced he made the right ones and I don't think he's managed them well. The inflation that was high all year, the increased unemployment and slow recovery from recession don't suggest good management.
So you think Macri was naive. Back when he was campaigning and promising foreign investments, did you think he was being too optimistic, or did you agree with him?
@Hektor
What you wrote sounds like a conspiracy theory. Why would other papers follow Clarin when they have the same ability to push their point of view?
How do you think CFK was reelected after she fell out with Magnetto? And if she has made peace with him now, do you expect to see stories about her corruption disappear from the newspapers?
@DT
Jun 19th, 2017 - 04:52 am - Link - Report abuse -2You need to learn about the role of Clarin and Hector Magnetto in Argentina in order to put things into context.
While nobody would pretend Magnetto is all-powerful, there is no denial he is very powerful.
I don't know about Cristina and Magnetto's relationship with Magnetto that Hektor refers to. However, he cautioned it's too early to know for sure, which shows he is prudent and doesn't pretend to know everything like others in this forum.
ElaineB
Jun 19th, 2017 - 07:53 am - Link - Report abuse -1You said:
”And since Kirchnerites don't believe anything written in Clarin now (though they did until CFK fell out with them) how can it wield power over them?”
Why do you think that I read MercoPress? I'm trying to get unbiased news from Argentina. Something I cannot get from the press in Argentina. I also read other numerous sources.
You said:
That is like a racist saying 'I have a black friend“. :)
Nice sense of humor. Do you think I was born yesterday or be so thin skinned. You are comparing and equating a black acquaintance with my wife of 45 years - my best friend, my loyal partner and companion, and the mother of our children. Come'n, you have to try harder and do better than that. :) :) :)
You do not know me. You do not know what makes me tik. You do not even know my education level or what do I have in university degrees. In other words, you talk without knowledge making you a flea market charlatan.
Stop shooting yourself in the foot. You have no more credibility.
Hektor
@ Hektor
Jun 19th, 2017 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse +2Still attempting to protect your own ego rather than learn? The words you used in your first post are sexist. That you cannot see that says everything about your lack of education and inculcated attitude to women. That one woman chooses to share you life does not make you a champion of feminism or make your sexist remarks void. Why not admit you got it terribly wrong?
You do understand that Mercopress is a news agency don't you? They take stories from other publications and post them here. It is very sad that you cannot believe any of the press in Argentina and have to go to a Uruguay based news agency. Surely your degree-level education would have taught you critical thinking and how to research to form an opinion? No? Was is a degree at an Argentine University? It could explain it.
Think will love that you believe this online new agency to be more accurate than his Kirchner propaganda sheets. He may be withdrawing his welcome.
I'd never even heard Magnetto's name until Hektor mentioned it. Enrique, Hektor, if Magnetto is so powerful, what is he trying to achieve? What does he want in return for supporting CFK or Macri?
Jun 19th, 2017 - 10:38 am - Link - Report abuse +1Hektor, this site certainly isn't unbiased. Biased in a different direction and for different reasons, perhaps. AFAIK a lot of the Argentina stories come from Telam and the same story will be published in various Argentine newspapers. Some stories are taken from Clarin, but I think these are usually credited.
He's not that powerful....
Jun 19th, 2017 - 12:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +1X-Men would sort him out...
DemonTree:
Jun 19th, 2017 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -1You said:
“Hektor, this site certainly isn't unbiased. Biased in a different direction and for different reasons, perhaps. AFAIK a lot of the Argentina stories come from Telam and the same story will be published in various Argentine newspapers. Some stories are taken from Clarin, but I think these are usually credited.”
I agree with you regarding the biases of MercoPress. They are obvious. Besides my MBA, I have a bachelors in History and Latin American Studies with a Masters in Political Sciences. Therefore, I know and had been trained to discern these biases.
Many have said if Cristina is guilty why is she trying to hide from Justice? Listen everyone, I will never back anyone that is guilty of corruption not Cristina or anyone else. If they are, they should face the music. However, it is up to the justice system to formally bring the charges. So far, there has been nothing but allegations, endless investigations, and nothing else. If she is guilty, bring it on. Furthermore, televise the proceedings.
On the other hand, Macri is the most corrupt head of the state in the world. This was the conclusion of the Panama papers. Macri and his family has the most offshore accounts that have never been declared. If it wasn't for the Panama papers, we would not have heard about them.
Everything that Macri does reeks of corruption - the Correos, for example. The different new “low cost” airlines set to operate in Argentina. Avianca is said to have contribute to Macri's personal fortune. Clarin and La Nacion are protecting their guy - a member of the Argentine recalcitrant oligarchy. Macri was asked why does he support Clarin and Magnetto so much. He responded, “I want to be President.” I thought he was the worst head of state in the planet - not anymore. That accolade belongs now to Donald J. Trump, imho. It does not say much when the only good thing about Macri is that he is better than Trump.
Hektor
Hektor writes of Macri “I thought he was the worst head of state in the planet”
Jun 19th, 2017 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Unless you mean “in Argentina” you know zilch about the world.
Say hello to Maduro in Venezuela, to Mugabe in Zimbabwe, kim Jong.Un in North Corea, ...
Hektor, meet
@Hektor
Jun 19th, 2017 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +1It appears you like to exaggerate. You must know Macri is nowhere close to being the worst or most corrupt leader in the world. (Nor is Trump.) He hasn't had his rivals assassinated or encouraged wholesale murder, he hasn't stolen billions or taken all the land and handed it out to his cronies. He's not even the worst in South America, Brazil's politicians are much more corrupt and Maduro has basically abandoned democracy in Venezuela.
The Panama papers came from just one company. There are plenty of others, no doubt with many more names listed in their books, and there were other heads of state listed too.
As for CFK, she's been charged, we'll have to wait and see what happens at the trial.
Hektor,
Jun 19th, 2017 - 06:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Sorry, but the fact that you have an MBA doesn't make you a judge. You seem to have determined that Cristina is innocent and that Macri is guilty at your sole discretion.
@TF
Jun 19th, 2017 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“You seem to have determined that Cristina is innocent and that Macri is guilty at your sole discretion.”
Well. This forum is full of people who already know everything and do not want to hear that Cristina Fernandez may not be guilty of corruption, murder etc., even if prosecutors and judges have so far failed to find any proof to sustain the allegations.
As for Mauricio Macri, several legal actions are progressing and the information publicly available is pretty damning, although of course I'll grant the benefit of doubt until a conviction is reached.
And so citizens are for now left to analyse the actions of government taken by both Fernandez de Kirchner and Macri and the consequences on daily life in order to evaluate them.
Macri has the dubious honour of presiding over the largest foreign borrowing in a given time that Argentina has ever seen. The domestic industry is in free fall partly due to indiscriminate imports and reduced consumption levels while unemployment has shot up to 9.2 per cent as reported by INDEC.
Cristina Fernandez, who has been accused by Clarin and other media of having “stolen everything,” on the other hand, left the country with moderate debt levels, unemployment lower than today, allowed for the retirement of three million senior citizens, created 16 public universities, created the Universal Child Allocation and sent two satellites to space.
@EM
Jun 19th, 2017 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Well. This forum is full of people who already know everything and do not want to hear that Cristina Fernandez may not be guilty of corruption, murder etc., even if prosecutors and judges have so far failed to find any proof to sustain the allegations.”
Yes, and we also have Hektor who has decided Macri is guilty and CFK innocent, and you who is convinced the judges charging CFK are guilty of corruption, despite the fact they have certainly not been convicted of anything. Seems to be very common to decide who is guilty and who innocent without the benefit of a trial.
If it turns out that CFK did steal from the state, would you still vote for her?
Good question.
Jun 19th, 2017 - 11:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@DT
Jun 20th, 2017 - 02:26 am - Link - Report abuse -1“If it turns out that CFK did steal from the state, would you still vote for her?”
Indeed, good question as Kanye said.
“Corruption” has been a hot topic in Argentina--at times. After Juan Peron was deposed by a bloody coup in 1955 there was a lot of talk about how corrupt Peron had been, how he had brought underage girls to the presidential residence, etc.
Corruption was seldom mentioned afterward, until the terms of Nestor and Cristina Kirchner when the Clarin newspaper began to talk about “La ruta del dinero K.”
Does it mean corruption only existed during Peron and Kirchners? No! Corruption is endemic in Latin America and has been a way of life in Argentina.
And so why is that corruption became a hot topic only at those times?
Because it's a tool of choice to be used against progressive governments. Of course, the rich and powerful could not attack Peron and the Kirchners for improving the lot of the poor. As a result, they had to find something else to make people believe their government was sooo bad.
That is the reason the Clarín newspaper, La Nacion and other media outlets were and remain very active denouncing the “corruption K” but became very discreet when cases of potential corruption of the Macri administration surfaced.
Government “corruption” becomes then a handy tool to attack the reputation of governments that “risk” to be voted again because of their inclusive programs. If you have a media group as powerful as Clarin and a few loyal judges you can make miracles happen.
Do I justify or neglect to condemn government corruption? Not in the least. Corruption is a cancer in Latin America, included Argentina, and must be eradicated.
As a result, when I judge whether a candidate deserves my vote, I will evaluate their public policies as a whole as much as their respect for public money.
And again, the jury is out on the alleged cases of corruption, both of the CFK and the Macri governments.
“...and sent two satellites to space...”
Jun 20th, 2017 - 02:27 am - Link - Report abuse +2Ha ha. That reekie, he funny. Doesn't even understand that such things are propaganda pablum for the legions of shirtless innocents.
50 years after the civilised world was launching satellites, Peronism went to the Italians and NASA for the off-the-shelf technology, then hired another country to actually launch their little multi-national effort, since Argentina is clearly incapable of launching their own, just as it is incapable of telling the truth about such matters.
Let us remember that the number-one cause of death among argentines is from crawling to the top of their egos and jumping off.
Enrique,
Jun 20th, 2017 - 03:43 am - Link - Report abuse +2“As a result, when I judge whether a candidate deserves my vote, I will evaluate their public policies as a whole as much as their respect for public money”
Well, Enrique, you've had a decade to ponder Evita K's policies as a whole and her “respect for public money”, and you have avoided answering the question.
Would you vote for her?
Yes or No will suffice.
thanks
@EM
Jun 20th, 2017 - 10:28 am - Link - Report abuse +2I was wondering how true it was that corruption was seldom mentioned until the K's. Ex-President Menem was convicted of embezzlement and smuggling weapons a few years ago, but hasn't gone to jail because he became a senator (exactly what people are accusing CFK of doing).
Another former president, Fernando de la Rua (the one who had to escape his people in a helicopter), was put on trial for bribery but found innocent. So the press has not been as silent as you claimed.
But you seem to be saying all candidates are corrupt, so yes you would vote for CFK - even if she is found guilty. Do you believe every president since the Junta has been corrupt, and their corruption equally damaging to the country?
Hi:
Jun 20th, 2017 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You guys are right and I was wrong when I said: “Macri is the worst head of state in the ”Planet.“ I completely went over the top. For that I sincerely apologize.
I was thinking that ”my planet“ was comprised of the leading countries, of responsible democracies, and specially the countries in the G-20. I never thought of countries headed by ”murderous thugs” like Syria, North Korea, Philippines, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, etc, etc, etc.
Hektor
Of course Kamerad/Komrade Rique would never mention Carlos Menem. He was a PERONIST who tanked the country after 10 years in office. His succesor was driven out of office by rioting peronists after trying for 2 years to deal with the economic destruction wrought by a particularly corrupt Menem who is, to this day, the most hated Argentine president ever. Indeed, this is the model for peronists, loot the country, let an opposition candidate take office, and when he cannot fix the widespread damage, drive him out of office, get peronists back in, then rinse and repeat. Kamerad/Komrade Rique has made this plain by stating that he can't wait to see Macri driven from office. The fact is that Kamerad/Komrade Rique is just another failed political hack, although his inability to return to Argentina indicates a more grave possibility, as do his remarks about “crushing the empire,” his outdated “economic analysis,” and his use of the Castroist term,“gusano,” for Latin Americans who disagree with him.I for one look forward to his extradition to Argentina for his past “revolutionary” acts...
Jun 20th, 2017 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@DT
Jun 20th, 2017 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -3No, read again. I never even suggested that I would vote for CFK if convicted. In any event, it's not useful to engage in “ifs” to feed the crowd of cheerleaders.
Let's instead pay attention to the actions of the current government, something the cheerleading crowd seem to be so reluctant to do.
Argentina has been the developing country taking the largest amount in foreign debt in the last 18 months.
Yesterday the government announced it's taking another 2.75 billion dollars, to be paid back in...100 years. I am not making this up.
Of course, the frenetic pace of indebtedness has been feeding capital flight and has not resulted in any increment of the country's productive capacity.
These people are mortgaging the future of generations of Argentines.
Talk about a “pesada herencia.”
@imoyaro
Here, let me help you. For your allegations to have some credibility you must avoid going overboard. Otherwise you are going to become the laughing stock of this forum.
Imoyaro,
Jun 20th, 2017 - 05:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Excellent characterization of Enrique and his support for Peronist tactics.
He appears to say also, that he would vote for a corrupt CFK, along with telling us she should not be invested, indicted, or pursued with corruption charges.
At the same time, he uses unsubstantiated 'corruption' accusations to denounce Macri.
What a hypocrite.
Hektor,
Does Maduro's Venezuelan Bolivarian totalitarian state fall into the region of your “planet”?
You seem to have avoided commenting on that one. Very strange, as Dilma and CFK were very cosy with Chavez and then Maduro.
The Bolivarian Revolution was their model, and they were complicit in helping Venezuela hijack Mercosur and illegally alienate the moderates of Paraguay.
You and Enrique both show a lot of moral integrity.
@Hektor
Jun 20th, 2017 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse -4I commend you for your honesty. However, you need to know that the crowd of Macri cheerleaders who keep guard in this forum do not care about rational arguments.
They will gang up on anybody who posts in disagreement with their backward ideology. As soon as you posted, even those who were asleep at the wheel woke up and came out like a pack of hyenas on a lamb.
They excel in going on the attack making outrageous claims in order to put you on the defensive and to divert attention from the topic at hand. My advice? Don't fall for it. Keep focused. ElaineB, who claims to be an English lady but sounds more like a Macrist troll is the most skillful of them.
Their goal is to keep talking about how a bad person CFK is, ignore what's been going on in Argentina for the last 18 months, and chase anybody who posts with a different view.
Because I post here with my real name, these people have googled me to death trying to find ways to scare me away--they even showed me the coordinates of where I live in Canada--to no avail of course--I invited them to drop by for asado.
In spite of that, I hope you will keep posting here. We are only a handful here and need to keep showing the “other side of the story” to those who don't post but read MP.
Un abrazo.
@Hektor
Jun 20th, 2017 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +3No problem. It's really a shame that there are so many terrible leaders, and countries that are awful places to live, in this world.
But even among responsible democracies, do you really think Macri is the worst leader? He hasn't started any wars or changed the constitution to give himself greater powers or suppressed press freedom. And surely it makes at least as much sense to compare Argentina to its neighbours as to the G20?
@EM
You didn't answer the question, so I tried to guess. But you know what she is charged with, so would you vote for her if she was convicted?
Menem was a right-wing Peronist, so I would think you did not support him. Am I right?
Hektor is a big boy, he can cope with the baying mob. He's posted here before and it doesn't seem to have scared him off.
Also ElaineB is indeed English as far as I can tell. I don't know why it would surprise you that someone from another country would prefer Macri when CFK basically told the whole international community to f*** off.
@EM
Jun 20th, 2017 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Oh, you have such a victim complex. You sound just like CFK with her whining about how everyone was out to get her whilst sending out her thugs to rough up anyone disagreeing with her.
I have continually supported your right to hold your opinion here but that does not mean I have to agree with you. Has it ever occurred to you that your posts might just be ill-informed and provocative in content?
Remember how the Kirchner book of populist rule included the 'them or us' mentality, 'they are all ganging up against us' and 'you are with us or against us'? It is sad to see someone unable to differentiate between posters who disagree with your comments for a variety of reasons. I am not a Macri supporter in particular but in your limited mental capacity you can only categorise anyone who doesn't worship CFK as supporting her opponent. How can you have reached you age and have such stunted reasoning.
Reekie reveals time after time that not only does he have not one wit of understanding of economics and monetary policy, but his sense of history is largely deficient as well.
Jun 20th, 2017 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +4In 2007, which we remember was among the Kirchner years, the ratio of Argentine debt to GNP was over 62 percent. In 2015, still a Kirchner year, the total debt has risen significantly but the ratio of debt to GNP was about 54 percent, and in 2016, while free of Kirchnerism, the ratio of debt to GNP was only about 54.2 percent.
Remember that the Kirchner governments could not borrow money at decent rates, and what they could get they paid for at as much as 15 percent annually. So why borrow money in 2016 and 2017? Because investors are foolish right now and they're giving money to Argentina at less than 5 percent. And much of that newly borrowed low-interest money is going to pay off the earlier (read: Kirchner era) high-interest obligations.
But such concepts are clearly beyond reekie's ability to grasp.
Marti,
Jun 20th, 2017 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Enrique is the only K poster here who consistently calls for “re-distributing wealth” (forcibly taking) from businesses, business owners, middle-class workers/investors, and private retirement savings.
He feels it is an entitlement of the unemployed or indolent.
He can't see it is stealing and that he will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Poor, poor Kamerad/Kamerad Rique, hunted, persecuted, a true hero of, er, whatever. You and your “Torturer's Tango Duo” partner, the blackstabber Gauchito Drink, have been cyberstalking people in here for years. I've seen his info sheet, he posted it in here. So far all he could come up with for me was that I have something to do with Paraguay. Your tactic is to call everyone a coward who will not give you their real name. As I have said before, I personally don't believe your “name” is the one you were born with, just the one you showed up on Canada's doorstep with on a “passport.” If you returned to Argentina, you might be fingerprinted, and that would be problematic, eh? So as you certainly appear to be one of the room's most obvious cyberstalkers, I am glad to hear that people are looking into your current situation. I have said before that the Mounties ought to be investigating your financial dealings over the past 10 years with an eye to funding from outside the country. I don't know what Canada's laws are regarding undeclared foreign agents, but maybe it's worth their while. I have NEVER seen you refer to Canada as “your country,” only the Narcokleptocracy when it was in full swing.I do hope somebody that can do something about it takes a closer look into your activities, because it is manifest that you are not what you try to hoodwink people into believing. On a lighter note, Populism is certainly moving forward, in that this “modest proposal” seems more honest than the drivel you keep spouting...
Jun 20th, 2017 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +2https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2017/06/16/ex-president-of-uruguay-wants-to-bring-back-duels-to-solve-legal-disputes/
Ah Marti. In spite of his apparent contempt for “argentos,” “argies” and so on, he will do his best to prop up the current Argentine government--no matter what it does.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse -3He cherry picks statistics to put off most but make him appear knowledgeable--and come to this conclusion:
“...investors are foolish right now and they're giving money to Argentina at less than 5 percent,” he writes--without smiling.
Wow! They are so crazy about Macri they are GIVING money to Argentina!
In fact, the loan Argentina is seeking right now is for US$2.75 billion, at about 7.9 per cent interest. The principal will be repaid only at the end of the term, leaving Macri and several generations of his descendants worry-free.
The pace at which Macri is increasing Argentina's external debt is quicker than the borrowing done by the 1976-1983 civic-military dictatorship. In just over 11 months, the country received $40 billion in loans, raising the total debt to about $200 billion or 30 per cent of the GDP.
However, not all debt is negative. When used to boost a country's economic development, to expand its productive capacity or improve infrastructure, debt may have a positive effect, because the country's capacity to repay will increase.
This is exactly what isn't happening in Argentina right now.
Increased energy costs, less economic activity, raising unemployment, an indiscriminate opening of imports are contracting the domestic sector, creating a scenario that existed prior to the 2001 disaster and default, prior to 1989 hyper-inflation and prior to the 1979 crisis under the civic-military dictatorship.
Meanwhile, Cristina spoke today to about 50,000 persons in the Arsenales soccer stadium. She called to a citizen front to stop Macri's policies.
Macri, on the other hand, attended the Day of the Flag celebrations in Rosario (Santa Fe) and spoke to 600 invited guests--all well sheltered behind barriers and lots of security.
@Kanye
Still waiting for proof of your allegations.
Imoyaro,
Jun 21st, 2017 - 12:44 am - Link - Report abuse +3Interesting observations- and I thought it was just me.
It seems that ElaineB and I are not the only ones who deduced Enrique has a criminal record or reasons the authorities won't let him back in Argentina.
I wonder if the US have anything on him, he's got a lot of resentment towards them.
Perhaps they won't let him go there.
He seems to have no gratitude or respect for his adopted home, either.
Some reminders of why Argentina's massive degree of endemic corruption isn't going to disappear anytime soon :
Jun 21st, 2017 - 04:23 am - Link - Report abuse +2http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/338612-argentina-needs-reform-to-tackle-government-and-business
Here's another reason why Kamerad/Komrade Rique might be leery of returning to Argentina. It's not exactly “safe” at the moment...
Jun 21st, 2017 - 05:46 am - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.thebubble.com/cfks-lawyer-attacked-by-taxi-driver-for-being-cfks-lawyer/
Well this has gone way off track. The article is about Ernestina Herrera de Noble, owner of Clarin, not Enrique Massot.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Clarin had an article yesterday about CFK introducing her new 'electoral front', anyone think Hektor could be right that they are easing off with her?
DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +1What did it say about her trying to start that 'electoral front', but not actually declaring her candidacy?
Sounds like her huge ego won't commit until she has tested the waters to see if she will have large support.
It would be very embarrassing for her if she M enters a party, and nobody came.
@DemonTree
Jun 21st, 2017 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Many jobs have been lost from the private sector and the rise in unemployment is real, but also due to ñoquis, not re-employed.
Worst hit are construction, which lost 10.3 percent of its jobs in 2016, and production, which lost some 7.6%.
More than 13 million people live below the poverty line in Argentina, more than the 5% Cristina lied about, and more than the real figures for 2014 and 2015.
Families join to rent a shared home, to buy at whole sale groceries to save 10%. Shops are closing (mostly because of the far too high U$S exchange rate = shopping trips to neighbouring countries), etc., etc.
It is, however, not all bad news.
Some 140,000 jobs were created in 2016.Q3, and Argentine economy grew 0.8% YoY in March 2017.
- - - -
Inflation:
2010 24.77%
2011 25.65%
2012 24.64%
2013 30.09%
2014 38.44%
2015 29.90%
2014.07: Argentine July inflation 2.47% and 39.71% in twelve months, according to Congress index
2015.01.15: La inflación en 2014 fue de 38,5%, según consultoras privadas.
In 2016 the overall inflation was probably about 45%
2016.07: BA City inflation in July clocks in at 2.2%; YoY 47.2%
2017.04: Argentina's 12-month inflation through April was 27.5%, which is less than Cristina-years 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016
2017.05: Privados elevaron a 21,6% las expectativas de inflación para 2017
- - - -
IMO Macri was neither naive, nor too optimistic, he knew all along that improvement after so many years of mismanagement would take a long time, several years. Everybody knew that.
Macri did have to make many changes. One can choose to do it in one sweep, which hurts a lot, or one can drag it out so it hurts year after year. Do and be damned, don't and be damned. Macri had no choice, as 2017 is a year of supplementary congressional elections, so he had to finish the worst before October. A lot more has to be changed, increasing the exchange rate will hurt the most.
reekie: “the loan Argentina is seeking right now is for US$2.75 billion, at about 7.9 per cent interest. The principal will be repaid only at the end of the term, leaving Macri and several generations of his descendants worry-free........ at about 7.9 per cent interest.”
Jun 21st, 2017 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Further evidence of reekie's flight from reality. Historically, Argentina's repayment problem has been in loan servicing, or rather, paying the interest. And the interest on this loan is going to be enormous, though at a much lower rate than the Kirchner governments had to pay. Getting around to paying the principal is a comparatively lesser matter. The way Argentina borrows, it's not surprising that the final result shows interest payments to be a lot higher than the amount of principal. Oh, and reekie, the coupon price for the loan is 7.125 percent, not 7.9 percent. You're perpetually confused by these things and now you're even confusing coupon with expected yield. Coupon is the fixed annual interest rate. The yield will vary. As far as a 7.125 percent coupon for a 100-year bond, that is not so very far from the 7.55% coupon for the 100 year bonds sold by Disney in the US. Of course, Disney's Fantasyland and Argentina's Fantasyland have little in common.
And of course, it's only a matter of [a short period of ] time before Argentina defaults again. But - for the time being -- the ratio of national debt to GNP is rather moderate. However, as Argentina continues on its path to remain noncompetitive in most economic sectors, things are likely to worsen.
@Don Alberto
Jun 21st, 2017 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why do you think unemployment and poverty have risen so fast? Enrique blames the opening of the markets to imports and rising energy costs for businesses, do you agree?
IMO reducing the import tariffs is something that would have better been done slowly. It would have given the local businesses more time to adjust and the government would have had more money to spend in the meantime. Similarly with removing the subsidy on utilities, something that needed to be done but was bound to jack up inflation as well as causing hardship for some people. Certainly he should have done all the legally required consultations etc first; Macri has a bad tendency to try to cut corners.
The other thing that pushed inflation up over 40% was letting the exchange rate float. But we know the country also lost millions of dollars from this action, due to those dollar futures the CFK government sold. Perhaps she intended to tie his hands, but wouldn't it have been better to wait and avoid the huge loss?
The other thing is the exchange rate with the dollar, which has actually gone down since the start of 2016. But wouldn't the country be better off if this was higher? It would help exports and stop the flow of cash to shops in neighbouring countries due to cheaper prices there. It seems likely that all the borrowing Macri is doing has worsened this by bringing foreign currency into the country, and not in a sustainable way.
@ML
You are obviously not optimistic about Macri's policies working. What changes could he make in your opinion to make Argentina competitive?
@Enrique
Jun 21st, 2017 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree with you. They have built a huge “Circus” around Cristina's involvement in corruption cases.
However I seriously doubt Cristina and/or Macri are innocent of corruption. There is something fishy about them both.
@Don Alberto
I'm just gonna have to disagree with you. The real dollar rate should be about 22 pesos to an US dollar. This should have been so since the end of 2014 more or less.
Unfortunately Macri has fallen into the same pit as the previous administration. Keeping a cheap dollar in Argentina simple does not work.
@DT
I had a really long chat with a friend of mine who happens to be a consultant for several investment firms. He briefly showed me a confidential report from one of his peers. Argentina´s economy will be screwed for at least 3 more years.
That report talks about a concept of “surplus waves” (that's totally new to me). Basically, this is the time of the financial lobby. Probably before 2019, there will be an inflection point and industry will be prioritized.
Just like you've heard. It is programmed this way. It was programmed that way even during Kirchnerism.
The current administration will play this financial uprise without falling into a 2001 like crisis. They have an exit strategy this time. Guess what it is? Just another devaluation that will probably not be felt due to increased jobs and economical activity. This increase will give the illusion of prosperity.
All in all, it doesn't matter if you are peronist or not in a cartelized economy.
@DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Sometimes you remind me of a story a journalist friend told me. As a well-respected expert in her political field she would from time to time receive flattering but wide-eyed emails from someone asking her to explain to them a complex political situation and how she would resolve it. She would always respond with an email suggesting a couple of publications that might help them with their research because she was not going to write their essays for them.
@ Kanye
EM will not disclose the reason he cannot return to Argentina and in some ways that probably explains his rose-coloured view of the country. Isn't the most perfect love the one that is unattainable? Nothing can ever sully the vision you have if you never experience the reality.
It is his prerogative to keep the reason to himself and I happen to think it is foolish to reveal too much personal information online. However, we are free to speculate why someone so devoted to CFK would not have wanted to live in Argentina when she was President.
@DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Excellent points and good questions.
I would add that there is nothing new about the Macri government's policies. It addresses the dream of the Argentine oligarchy of a return to the Golden Age (1860-1930) when Argentina was richer than Canada and Australia because of its agro-exports.
The elimination of the export tax (retenciones) was one of his first measures that benefited not only the agro-business but the mining industry, mostly done by multinational corporations. The devaluation came as another gift to exports while hurting the rest of the Argentines. The resulting reduction in consumption and the imports are hurting small and medium size companies.
No country can have a sustainable economic base supported by a handful of commodities. Juan Peron's strategy of industrialization earned him the hatred of the oligarchy, which plotted the 1955 bloody coup. Other presidents such as Arturo Frondizi (who attempted to develop oil extraction) and Arturo Illia (a president who retired poor) were also deposed by coup.
It's difficult for those living in most western countries with modern capitalist models to understand Argentina's pendulum between attempts to develop the country's whole economy and the dominant class' efforts to keep the country pastoral and socially exclusive.
At the root is the appropriation of the land by a few families who became immensely wealthy and became our backward, semi-feudal oligarchy. The U.S and Canada, for example, distributed their land in economic, smaller production units, which forced a capitalist development model.
As a result, Argentina failed to create a powerful national sector that would have fully developed Argentina as a capitalist country, having instead a regressive, unpatriotic oligarchy striving to keep the semi-feudal production model that allows them to live well, often in Paris or NY.
Check Macri's regressive policies against this backdrop and see how everything falls into place.
@Enrique
Jun 21st, 2017 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I have many times heard that Argentina was like the US without something like the Northwestern Ordinance.
But you are forgetting Peron's real origins and mission in Argentine history. He did of course plan for a quick post WWII industrialization but he did nothing about land redistribution (at least nothing that could be considered disrupting)
I think part of your confusion comes from the fact that you fail to acknowledge who Peron's real bosses were.
@TF
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At the risk of having Elaine call me 'wide-eyed', I'll have to ask you what the heck a 'surplus wave' is, because I have never heard of one. I didn't think Argentina had a large financial services industry, but perhaps that's not what you meant? And who will prioritise industry after 2019? The government?
Also, if Peron had tried to redistribute land he probably would have been deposed in a coup... oh wait.
@EM
The devaluation should have reduced imports by making them more expensive, as well as helping exports of all kinds, manufactured goods as well as commodities. But the peso still appears to be overvalued, otherwise why would people be going to neighbouring countries to buy consumer goods?
I agree basing the economy on a few commodities is not a good idea in the long run (although it's kind of understandable that people might want to go back to a time when Argentina was richer than Canada and Australia!) What I don't understand is why the previous government wanted to focus on manufacturing PCs, phones etc, instead of processing the soya beans and other food products that are already produced in the country.
@EB
I included plenty of my own opinions on the economy, don't you have anything to say on that?
@ DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good for you and no I am not doing you homework for you.
reekie: “..... to understand Argentina's pendulum between attempts to develop the country's whole economy and the dominant class' efforts to keep the country pastoral and socially exclusive. ”
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +2It is quite easy to understand, however, the pendulum between Peronism's attempts to create entirely inefficient industries that employ political favoritism to under-produce over-priced and un-reliable junk to give the unskilled something to do, all the while subsidised by excessive taxation on the few moderately efficient and productive sectors of the economy; and the ineludible Argentine tradition of simply looting the public treasuries through some of the most creatively corrupt measures imaginable, while achieving Peronism's historic goal of keeping at least a third of the population in poverty.
@EB
Jun 21st, 2017 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's fine, but please don't jump in when I am talking to other people if you aren't going to contribute anything useful.
ML
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 12:40 am - Link - Report abuse +1“however, the pendulum between Peronism's attempts to create entirely inefficient industries that employ political favoritism to under-produce over-priced and un-reliable junk to give the unskilled something to do, all the while subsidised by excessive taxation on the few moderately efficient and productive sectors of the economy”
That explains why Enrique doesn't like imported goods that compete with the domestically produced inferior products.
@DT
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What I tried to translate with “surplus wave” was “periodo con excedente de recursos”. Probably “period with excess or resources” would have worked better.
Going back to Ernestina Herrera de Noble, here's an approximate idea of what the Clarin Group really means in Argentina.
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The group shares with Telefonica Argentina S.A. the bulk of the country's audience. Not only that:
A story appearing the morning in the Clarin newspaper will be repeated through the day by the hundreds of TV channels, radios, Internet services and related media across the country. If the story later reveals incorrect or outright fake (something that happened several times during the last presidential election campaign) corrections will not be forthcoming, or they'll be published by Clarin in the back pages. The effect on the public is overwhelming because most will assume a story that's being repeated over different media outlets must be true.
Here are some of the components of the Clarin group:
Newspapers:
Diario Clarín,
Diario Olé
Diario La Razón
Diario Los Andes,
Diario La Voz del Interior
Events:
ExpoAgro,
Expo Argentina Educativa
Other publicacions:
Clarín Clasificados;
Manuales de matemática “Matimática”
Libro de inglés “Yes!”
Magazines:
Revista Viva
Revista Genios
Revista Elle
Elle Novias
Elle Deco
Revista Rumbos
Private messenger service: Correo Privado Unir
Web services:
Clarín.com
Diario Olé,
Ciudad.com
MasOportunidades.com
Tipete.com
titear.com
Ubbi
Buscador Clarín
Mas Oportunidades.com
vxv.com,Club Cupon
News agency: DyN
Televisión through cable e internet:
Cablevisión
Fibertel
Fibercorp
Canal 10 Necochea
Canal 11 Miramar
Datamarkets (Servicio de Banda Ancha Empresas)
Ciudad (Servicio de DialUp), Flash (Servicio de Banda Ancha/Fusionado con FiberTel)
Fullzero (Servicio de Internet Free)
Vontel, Telefonía IP residential and commercial
Plus over 140 radios and TV channels broadcasting across the country.
Such is Ernestina's legacy, in the hands of emperor Hector Magnetto.
@TF
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0That makes more sense, but google still can't find anything. Maybe it really is a new concept?
@EM
It's certainly a long list, even if not quite a monopoly. I was wondering why more of Argentina's media is not foreign-owned, but it seems Nestor passed a law in 2003 to cap foreign ownership at 40%. This may go some way to explaining why Clarin supported him back then.
If Mrs Noble was still publisher of Clarin, do we know who has taken over since she died? And probably her children inherited her controlling interest in Clarin Group, but the article doesn't say.
@DT
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -1I did not say the Clarin group is a monopoly and don't think anybody here did. That fact, however, does not reduce its power. The group really has the bulk of the audience across the country. The Kirchner government had passed a law that would have forced Clarin to downsize, but the newspaper went to court and delayed its application until the Macri government killed it.
Another fact is, pursuing its agenda, Clarin has abandoned journalistic ethics, which have become similar to those of a supermarket tabloid. For example, all their attack stories lack the word of the person or persons under attack. Clarin does not even make attempts to interview “the other side.” On top of that, Clarin stories frequently include information provided by “highly placed sources,” “trusted sources,” a “high-ranking official,” and the like.
TV journalist Jorge Lanata, who used to be a progressive reporter, worked hand in hand with Clarin to aggressively spread all sorts of fake news and rumours about CFK and her government.
Their combined work has been so effective, many Argentines refer to CFK as “the thief,” (similarly to many here in MP) Those people don't feel there is a need to prove she “robbed the country” because how can't that not be true when hundreds of stories say so?
As for Ernestina's successor, I only know Ernestina wrestled the newspaper's control from one of Noble's daughters after his death and really don't care much. Hector Magnetto is the real decision-maker there, and has been for a long time.
Reekie conveniently misses the real story here, how CFK attempted to make newsprint a “national resource” and prevent the Clarin group publishers from having access to it, while also forbidding the importation of newsprint. And then there was the fact of Kirchnerismo using millions in public funds to spend only on media sources that were considered friendly to CFK, and to use those funds for propaganda to support fascist Kirchnerism, in ways that would have made Goebbels proud. Reekie would be hard pressed to admit to the attempts by the corrupt CFK government to eliminate or control the free press and freedom of expression here in Argentina.
Jun 24th, 2017 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1ML,
Jun 24th, 2017 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Control of the media is key in a totalitarian society.
The K's were fine with Clarin at the time they moved to limit 'foreign' media. It was all very cosy.
Later, when there was a rift between them, the K's condemned Clarin.
Later, as you say, CFK attempted to put many measures in place to limit Clarin and independent media.
All the while, the State media, mandated to be available in every municipality in Argentina, was run by the K's and issued K partisan propaganda and speeches, especially during football matches which they used gov. funds to broadcast 'free' to the people.
So glad the above commentators do not deny Clarin's blatant lack of journalistic ethics.
Jun 24th, 2017 - 05:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0However, as Marti says, the “real story” is not about Clarin but about the behaviour of the Ks while in government.
Perhaps the Ks did attempt to control the media.
Following that reasoning, this is how it would work:
1. The K government tried to control the media.
2. Therefore it's OK (or at least not worth mentioning--not the real story according to Marti) Clarin's ditching of journalistic ethics. What matters is, what they do has to work against the Ks.
I would respectfully ask the two above writers to emit some opinion about Clarin's journalistic ethics on top of the usual “K” bashing which is another topic. The newspaper and all the other connected media are a powerful opinion maker, and the lack of neutrality in reporting is alarming.
@Tarquin Fin writes: “I'm just gonna have to disagree with you. The real dollar rate should be about 22 pesos ...”
Jun 24th, 2017 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I fail to see how we disagree.
Considering the level of the inflation, especially since 2009, the exchange rate 2017.06 should be considerably higher, between 21 and 23.
Año . Inflación%
2009 ... 18.0
2010 ... 24.8
2011 ... 25.7
2012 ... 24.6
2013 ... 30.1
2014 ... 34.4
2015 ... 29.9
2016 ... 45.0
2017Q1+2 10.0 (probably)
@DemonTree
As far as I can tell, the unemployment and poverty have risen so fast, because Macri wanted things to improve during his 4 year term.
If it doesn't, the witch might regain power and claim kudos for his long haul gains.
Of course the opening of the markets to imports and, more important, allowing the exchange rate to become more realistic (it's still at least 25% too low) caused many problems.
The energy bills are now closer to the real cost. If they hadn't been raised considerably, the entire energy networks would have collapsed due to lack of investments. We alredy experienced partial collapses, especially in Buenos Aires, but also in other cities, days or weeks without electricity during summer temperatures of over 30°C.
The Indústria Argentina has detoriated much during the kirchner era. Seeing no reason to produce high quality products, except those for export to other Mercosur countries, most Argentine products are trash. People buy an Argentine product and expect it to fail within a few months. One of the few exceptions is my Gaucho trousers, produced in Mendoza.
Increasing the import tariffs slowly causes the pain to last for years, doing it fast hurts more in a much shorter time. Do and be damned, don't and be damned.
The sale of future dollars at an insane rate (10.50) was clearly intended to hurt the governing following La Bruja's. One can choose to be lead by the nose by one's power crazy predecessor or endure the pain.
@EM
Jun 24th, 2017 - 11:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hektor claimed Clarin group was a monopoly serveral times, but I know you didn't.
@ML
And Clarin group had joint ownership of the one newsprint company with La Nacion and charged rival publications an extortionate price in order to prevent competition. This already limits the free press and is exactly the sort of thing the government should prevent. Ditto Clarin owning both the big cable companies.
@DA
It's a risky strategy, given the elections this year. Guess we'll find out how much people are willing to put up with soon enough.
I already said I agreed the energy subsidies needed to go, but I don't think Macri managed it well.
Did you mean to say reducing the import tariffs? Because to be honest I don't see how that causes pain at all. People are used to paying them and it would have saved him borrowing so much, so what is the downside to lowering them slowly?
As for the future dollars, you don't think the fact he and his allies stood to benefit from the devaluation may have influenced his decision?
And I agree with you and TF the exchange rate should be lower and I think it would be better for the country if it was, though that is also something that could lead to short term pain.
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