MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
CFK launches new left-wing alliance for mid-term elections
Former Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner Tuesday launched her new political alliance called Unidad Ciudadana with support from left-wing parties to vie for seats in Congress in the upcoming mid-term elections. Candidates have until Saturday to register. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesMercoPress can't get anything right, that's “Unidad Cuidado!”
Jun 21st, 2017 - 06:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Would we be surprised if she announces her candidacy? I suspect it is her only way of avoiding jail.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 08:49 am - Link - Report abuse +2What isn't clear from the article: is this new alliance Peronist or not?
Jun 21st, 2017 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse -2Not that I really understand what Peronist means when it seems to cover such different things.
If she is elected as a senator, will that prevent the trials or can she still be tried and possibly convicted but just won't go the jail?
@ DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 12:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Pretty much all parties are Peronist in Argentina. It is not a political party but a political ideal entrenched in Argentine society. At the extreme it is like a cult. In more general terms it is something all parties refer to for fear of alienating voters but it has little real meaning.
It would be like all our political parties saying they believe in the voter right to breathe and it taking on an importance beyond reason in campaigning. Any party that didn't include 'the right to breathe' would be condemned and accused of denying the voters free air.
Here's a tip, you can be far right and far left and be a Peronist. Moderates need not apply. This means that the leader can use either branch to clamp down on the other, and history has shown one wing of the “party” at the other's throat more than once. The “Ezeiza Massacre” that occurred when Peron returned from exile is a classic example.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +3It doesn't make much sense; from what I have read about Peron he didn't even have his own ideology but just took bits from others that he thought would work. So why does practically every party have to claim to be his heir?
Jun 21st, 2017 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -2And is Unidad Ciudadana Peronist or not?
@ DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Are you being serious?
I guess that's a 'yes' then. The article seemed to possibly be implying it wasn't, and I don't think all those little parties are Peronist? CFK was in the Justicialist Party before which definitely is.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 02:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -2@ DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +1O.K. let's try a different way of explaining it. Don't think of Peronism as being equivalent to Labour or Conservative of Liberal etc. It is inculcated into every part of politics in Argentina. I am surprised you haven't grasped the concept by now.
CFK used to stand next to a picture of Evita at every opportunity she was being photographed or giving one of her interminable rambling speeches, so to even suggest she would not be associated with a Peronist party is to have misunderstood her entirely.
But Macri's Cambiemos party isn't Peronist, and he just got elected. So apparently it's not as essential as all that. And if Peronism is such a meaningless thing... well, CFK is her own brand now, isn't she? Does she really still need to claim Peron and stand next to pictures of Evita at rallies?
Jun 21st, 2017 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -1imoyaro can't get anything right :) Mercopress can:
Jun 21st, 2017 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“PASO 2017: Cristina Kirchner sale a la cancha con el lanzamiento de su frente Unidad Ciudadana en Sarandí ... La expresidenta lanzó su frente, Unidad Ciudadana”
http://tn.com.ar/politica/cristina-kirchner-en-sarandi-el-acto-el-fotos_801356
@ Don Alberto
Jun 21st, 2017 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see humor is lost on you...cuidado, Señor ;)
http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/imoyaro/chopperlaff_zpsryuikyku.gif
@ DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +1You are still not understanding the concept. Peronism is a cult pervading Argentina society, it is not a political party or ideology. Let me try the words attributed to Peron himself to explain it:
”The story goes that a foreign journalist interviewed President Peron during the peak of his first “democratic dictatorship” (1946-1955). He asked Peron to describe the Argentine political scene. In his affable and convincing tone, the president answered: “Close to forty percent are conservatives, then we have the radicals, near thirty percent, they are a centrist party founded in 1890, we also have the socialists, also moderate, around ten percent, we also have some Christian Democrats and some Liberals …” the journalist interrupted, “Excuse me Mr. President, aren’t you forgetting the Peronists?” “Peronists? They are All Peronists!” the president quipped wittingly.”
They all use the name of Peron to mean something different but all will worship at the foot of his memory. Macri himself paid tribute to his memory whilst attending an unveiling of a statue to him whilst leading the Cambiemos party. He may not stand next to a picture of Peron in the way CFK did with Eva but that doesn't mean he is not infused with Peronism.
Evita is a saint in Argentina. The devotion to her memory is akin to a religion. So, yes, CFK used Eva Peron's status in Argentina to her own advantage. Their names and images were intertwined throughout the Kirchner's reign. And, no, CFK does not have the same status as Evita and never will.
I am certain we have discussed this in great detail before.
Evita worked as an escort did she not?
Jun 21st, 2017 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@golfcronie
Jun 21st, 2017 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I would imagine there were a lot of men that would pay for sex with a young girl as she was when she attempted to break away from her poor roots. Exploitation of women in poverty is a well-worn path in many countries. I mean, if she was already well set financially she wouldn't want a bunch of dirty old men pawing her would she?
Kinda irrelevent to the discussion don't you think? Or did you just want to get off on talking about prostitutes?
What an irony! Frente Unidad Ciudadana Kirchnerista. As foretelling as it comes.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse +3@EB
Jun 21st, 2017 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -1I daresay we've discussed it, but you never called it a cult before. I do know that Macri's election was considered notable because he is not a Peronist, even if he did pay tribute to him as you say.
I can't believe everyone in Argentina considers Evita like a saint. She died in the 50s, not that many people would even remember her! And she was by no means universally popular at the time. Maybe I just lack the hero-worshipping gene, but I don't understand people's obsession with celebrities of any kind.
And I never thought CFK had the same status as Evita, only that she now has enough fame and achievements of her own that she may not need to borrow someone else's glory.
@ DT
Jun 21st, 2017 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Whether you believe something or not is not the defining factor.
I think you will find most saints died a long time ago. If anything the passing of time filters out the bad. Evita really does have sainthood status in Argentina.
Now, I am sure you will not believe this either but there is a Church of Maradona in Rosario. It is a religion there. If you understood the mindset of a predominantly catholic country and decades of populism, worshipping mere mortals is not so unbelievable.
Since you spend so much time on here discussing Argentina I have to recommend that you visit. Spend just a couple of weeks there talking to regular folks and you will start to understand. Spend years there and you really get inside their heads.
Oh dear Elaine, did I touch a raw nerve, where did I mention prostitutes in my post. You can be an escort without having have to succumb to sexual advances.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -3@ golfcroni
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +2You clearly have the experience with prostitutes and escorts.
You know shit about Eva Peron.
She had a choice,to be an escort or not.No need to be rude.
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse -2@ golfcronie
Jun 21st, 2017 - 09:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +1You brought it randomly into the discussion when it had no relevance.
She wouldn't had the choice if there were not so many dirty old cronies for customers.
Like I said, you know shit about Eva Peron.
Waffle... Seen her grave, and Shackleton's
Jun 21st, 2017 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DT
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 01:40 am - Link - Report abuse -1“And I never thought CFK had the same status as Evita, only that she now has enough fame and achievements of her own that she may not need to borrow someone else's glory.”
And yet, CFK borrowed freely from the Evita imagery for her public appearances and did her best to draw parallels between them.
She had much to gain from being portrayed as a 'friend of the poor'.
Just ask Enrique, who becomes outraged when I reference CFK as, “Evita K”
Now, now Kanye, Kamerad/Komrade Rique always gets petulant when people point out the truth about the Narcokleptocracy, and puts on a show. A man's gotta earn a living, don'tcha know...
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 03:41 am - Link - Report abuse +1Has Hepatia got lost?
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 04:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Elaine, She had a choice or was there not any rape laws then in Argentina? What women do for fame.Just look at the celebrity wives and girlfriends.Of course it is for love.
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 08:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ golfcronie
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse +1What do you think of the disgusting creeps that fuck young girls for money? I mean, how revolting does a man have to be to need to pay someone to have sex with them?
Is there any evidence at all that Evita ever worked as an escort? Because I can't find any.
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 08:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Kanye
I'll take your word for it. The question is, does she still use that imagery? If she does decide to stand for Senator then we'll get to find out.
Why do you call her 'Evita K'? Just to annoy Enrique?
Juan Peron claimed to be of a “third position” not belonging to either capitalism or Communism.
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -1His theory was to give some well-being to workers so that they'd reject socialist- communist revolution.
“You have to give some before losing it all,” he told business people.
As I said before, the upper class did not understand his strategy--they did not want to give anything, hated him and Eva and came up with their own system.
However, workers never forgot what Peron had given them, hence the famous pendulum ever since.
Maybe you are like Quasimodo, not much chance there eh!. Seriously prostitution is a two way financial transaction. Why is it men are disgusting creeps to use your analagy. Surely a women still has to say yes. Disgusting women being paid for sex, they ought to give it free.
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cristina Fernandez' candidacy introduces a new twist in the October election, changing what could have been for president Mauricio Macri a walk in the park into a fundamental test for his administration.
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -2For Cristina is an all-of-nothing challenge. If she wins, Macri is in trouble, but if she loses, her political future may be compromised if not finished.
To suggest as the story above does that CFK is “very much in need of parliamentary immunity given the corruption charges against her” shows not only ignorance about who Cristina is--it seeks to reduce her willingness to jump back to the political arena to a mere personal convenience.
The writer not only shows total ignorance on CFK's political vocation, but abandons all pretension of neutrality by predicting the outcome of any eventual trial on Cristina, which would “presumably lead to her...imprisonment.”
Of course, we don't know what privileged information or clairvoyant abilities the writer has.
We do not know either what judge Bonadio and prosecutor Marijuan have been cooking for over 15 months in spite of been busy trying to find any solid evidence on Cristina's “corruption” to no avail.
Hey, they still have a window of opportunity before October!
Enrique, you of all people must know that “ justice ” in Argentina grinds so slowly, do we know if Nisman was murdered or committed suicide? How long has it been? Argentina needs to sort out the judicial system as more and more criminals are getting away scot free.Are ALL lawmakers affiliated to one political or another so must toe the political line?
Jun 22nd, 2017 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“Argentina needs to sort out the judicial system as more and more criminals are getting away scot free.”
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 12:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0No kidding, Kamerad/Komrade Rique made it to Canada...
@GC
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 03:02 am - Link - Report abuse -2Yeah, amazingly, two years have passed and still no end in sight for the Nisman's case. Justice is slow in many countries, but in Argentina it moves at glacial speed.
The most apparent cause for the delay is that none of all the forensic evidence investigations of the crime scene to date found any signs of outside intervention in Nisman's death, while Nisman's ex-wife wants his death to be ruled the result of a crime. Recently, a new investigation was conducted, to which lawyers from Lagomarsino, a former employee, were not allowed to attend.
Of course, there are other interests seeking to declare Nisman's death a murder and attribute such death to Cristina Fernandez--as it was from day one. The problem being, of course, that no a trace of outside presence was ever found, and in as in the other investigations on CFK, proof has been hard to find.
There are good, impartial judges but there are many who are not. For a government reigning on judges will always be a temptation, which requires an accountability system that makes the separation of powers an imposition on all.
Macri said recently that he is “tired of judges who do not imprison anybody.”
Go figure.
Once again, Kamerad/Komrade Rique makes a bunch of “statements” without anything to back them up. Certainly no surprise there. But I believe it is fair to say we can expect the same kind of criminality from his Narcokleptocratic backers as we saw last election...
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 05:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://panampost.com/panam-staff/2015/11/16/kirchner-supporters-urge-voters-to-steal-relatives-id-cards/
How come you have all the answers yet nothing appears in the media? You must have “ friends ” close to both investigations to be so well informed.Pray do tell. Even under Kirchner the judicial system was sadly lacking, so you can't blame Macri I'm afraid.
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 09:08 am - Link - Report abuse +1Why, I'll take as a compliment from you, thank you very much.
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Many have said here there's no way I can know anything about my home country 'cause I don't reside there, however I am interested and informed.
However, everything I noted above is public and well known in Argentina. And I agree even under the Kirchners the judiciary was lacking. Never said all was perfect, although much better than today's mess.
Enrique Massot
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“However, everything I noted above is public and well known in Argentina”
Much like, it is public and well known in Argentina that CFK is lying and corrupt, right?
Kanye:
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 03:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -1I have asked you several times to provide support for your allegation posted in Mercopress that I am a “Communist ” and a “criminal.”
You have avoided the topic and instead continue to pile up nonsensical stuff in hopes your faux pas will be forgotten.
If you still want me to consider your questions, I suggest you just apologize for having posted irresponsible, potentially libellous statements about my person. Then, we can move on and avoid using insult in lieu of argument.
Kamerad/Kamerad Rique, you have accused me of supporting Pinochet, without any evidence, while extolling the torturer Peron, something you just did above. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you are here to garner personal information of chatters here, working together with Gauchito Drink. The fact that you constantly make statements that indicate adherence to a certain ideology is not our problem. You certainly don't deserve an apology, and there is no point in “arguing” with a true believer in a criminal system, which you patently are. You are a voice from the dustbin of history with all that that implies... :)
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 04:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ EM
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 05:06 pm - Link - Report abuse +1You dish out the insults and false accusations often enough, you really cannot play the victim. No one makes you post here.
@imoyaro
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“...you are here to garner personal information of chatters here...”
Now you tell me how anyone could “garner personal information” on people who use nicknames, most especially taking into account that I do put my real identity upfront for all to see (and abuse).
Also, to imoyaro en ElaineB: Even if I personally insulted or attacked somebody in this forum (which I haven't), how is that defamation becomes OK if used against a person who defames? This would be akin to make okay stealing from a robber.
Keep lying, Kamerad/Komrade Rique. You are always challenging people to give you their real names, while as I explained, your current nom de guerre may well not be the name you were born with, since numerous “revolutionaries” have done the same, witness Ulyanov, Bronstein,, or Dzhugashvilli. People can judge for themselves. I have to admit I find your performance highly amusing, but since you are here, care to explain what you mean about “crushing the empire?” How about “people who suck the English,” a curious remark given who your current neighbors are. Then there's the repeated use of the pejorative “gringos,” another one your neighbors might feel offended by. Of course I don't expect you to answer, but your remarks are archived on this site. In any event pray continue, your pompous attempts to defend evil provide entertainment in what is often a dark and chaotic world...
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 05:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0EM
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or using avoidance instead of argument.
You can't say everyone 'knows' Macri and the Judges are corrupt and in cahoots, and then turn around and denounce those who say CFK is corrupt and politically intimidated the Judiciary.
That's hypocrisy - a term I am sure you are intimate with.
All deductions that you are /were a Communist and a criminal are from your myriad of accusatory posts over the past few years.
I am not the only one to recognize it.
Of course we will never know, but you do not deny it. You ask for “proof”.
I suppose to deny it would mean 'betraying' your comrades.
Kanye:
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1So you have “deducted” that I am a “Communist” and a “criminal” from my “accusatory posts.”
Then you qualify a bit: “Of course we will never know, but you do not deny it.”
There you admit, between the lines, that you don't and that “we will never know.” In spite of that, you casually accused me of being a “criminal.” I remind you that a criminal, according to the Oxford dictionary, is “a person who has committed a crime.”
Therefore, you must be able to sustain I have committed a crime. You make the allegation, you support it. Otherwise, you risk being guilty of defamation.
Now, a Communist is a person “who supports or believes in the principles of communism” which is, according to Dictionary.com, “a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.”
I challenge you to find any posting of mine where I promoted the principles stated above.
Also, I invite you to inform yourself about the following text, by the Canadian Bar Association:
“Defamation is communication about a person that tends to hurt the person's reputation.
”The law protects your reputation against defamation. If someone defames you, you can sue them...for harming your reputation.”
I invite you to formally retract your accusations and acknowledge they were done in error so that we can move on to more important topics.
https://www.cbabc.org/For-the-Public/Dial-A-Law/Scripts/Your-Rights/240
Sure Enrique,
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you think being a Communist affects your reputation?
I expect you are a criminal in Argentina and cannot go back.
You had better pursue that then. Let's bring it all out.
“I expect you are a criminal in Argentina and cannot go back.”
Jun 23rd, 2017 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Tell you what, Kanye. Help me by sending me an airplane ticket to Argentina dated any day from July 1 to July 15 and I'll gratefully send you a selfie from Plaza de Mayo the day after the flight. Hey, I may even get a selfie with Cristina if get the opportunity!
“Tell you what... Help me by sending me an airplane ticket to Argentina dated any day from July 1 to July 15 and I'll gratefully send you a selfie from Plaza de Mayo ... ”
Jun 24th, 2017 - 01:03 am - Link - Report abuse +1Tell you what, I'll accept that and apologize for calling you a criminal - you could have just told me you can't afford the flight.
Serious question,
Do you see yourself as a type of Peronist, rather than following the Communist doctrines?
Kanye, not to answer for Kamerad/Komrade Rique, but the fact is, one can be a Fascist or a Marxist and still be a Peronist. The left wing of the “party” was known as the Montoneros.
Jun 24th, 2017 - 05:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JUGV0i0Zz7A/Tz1butatC3I/AAAAAAAACCc/L3G9gr5AdR0/s1600/montonero.mono.asesino.jpg
Thank you. Apology accepted. And yes, I confirm I am not rich--but as soon as I can save enough I will go visit my home country again and show it to my youngest, Canadian son.
Jun 24th, 2017 - 05:34 am - Link - Report abuse +1I have never been a Peronist because of its right-wing component. Old fox Peron used the left and the right within his movement depending on the moment. He encouraged left-wing Montoneros movement to attack the military regime of the late 1960s, and once he became president again in 1973 he turned against them, which unleashed a hunt by paramilitary groups of leftists and progressive personalities, organized by Peron's personal secretary become minister Jose Lopez Rega, which anticipated the deadly strategy that the military would begin implementing in 1976.
When Carlos Menem betrayed the many who voted for him in hopes of a progressive government, it only confirmed to me that nothing was ever going to come out of Peronism.
When Nestor Kirchner assumed the presidency, I did not think much of it--it would have been just another Peronist. However, I began paying attention when he cancelled the partial amnesty granted by Raul Alfonsin and the total one decreed by Menem. More so when I had paid back the IMF debt--something I never thought the country was going to be able to do.
Kirchnerism, represented by Nestor and Cristina, is a different from Peronism. Observers can see it clearly in the behaviour of Peronists legislators who have voted in support of many of Macri's regressive laws.
After living in three very different countries, I will support any government that provides improvement to the less fortunate and middle class, as well as democratic socialism as practiced in the Scandinavian countries. Brand names, stamps and ideology are now secondary to me.
There you go. I hope I clarified a few things.
EM
Jun 24th, 2017 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Thanks for that illuminating reply.
We have many differences regarding economics and the policies of the K's and Macri.
However, I have a better understanding of how you arrived at your position.
Argentina is in a frustrating and difficult position, but I don't see how they can sustain themselves and pay for the social programs promised by the K's, under the K policies.
Argentina was on a steady decline.
I have no ill-will against Argentina or its people, except when they politically and economically harass the Islanders.
That was a major preoccupation of the K's.
You are welcome. Good to hear you do not have ill-will against Argentines.
Jun 24th, 2017 - 04:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I also appreciate knowing your position in regards to how to achieve economic progress and your concern about the Islanders.
We may have different ideas but it's good to be able to discuss it. I celebrate this opening dialogue.
Its a funny old world innit, Cristina having to split from the Blairite-like barons of the PJ while almost all the left here in Britain are now in the Labour Party supporting its leadership. Hope Unidad Ciudadana joins the ranks of Corbyn, Sanders, Melenchon et all in making a breakthrough against the failed and unjust policies of Thatcherism. Best wishes to Cristina for this election - and hope it sets her up well for the next one, for President. She might well have a comrade and friend in Downing Street by then =)
Jun 24th, 2017 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -1It's official, Cristina is heading a list of candidates to the Senate of the Province of Buenos Aires.
Jun 25th, 2017 - 03:56 am - Link - Report abuse -1Meanwhile, El Pais of Spain publishes a well-informed and damning article about the way the current government is mortgaging future generations of Argentines.
http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2017/06/19/actualidad/1497892331_691860.html
Great! I can't wait to see stories like this back in the news...
Jun 25th, 2017 - 07:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/ex-argentina-anti-drug-chief-accused-of-trafficking-precursor-chemicals
Cristina took Argentina to the financial abyss and you want her back. Good luck with that. You obviously do not live there.The poor under Kirchner got poorer and doubled in size, no doubt if she came to power again a similar situation would occur, but if that's what you want good luck. Incidently Corbyn is a good orator but he cannot afford his promises. Taxing the rich only puts paid to investment, lack of investment means less jobs and so the cycle would go on. Exactly what happend with Kirchner regime, so please wise up.
Jun 25th, 2017 - 08:47 am - Link - Report abuse +1I didn't call it the Narcokleptocracy for nothing...
Jun 25th, 2017 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/09/01/argentina-probes-drug-suspects-calls-to-government-office/print
@EM
Jun 25th, 2017 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0Doubt anyone will be surprised that she is standing.
Interesting article. I think this is the most important point:
“According to the latest ECLAC regional report, during Macri's first year the fiscal deficit increased by 2.4% over the previous year.”
To cover the deficit, he has borrowed on the international markets, but the influx of dollars has strengthened the peso against the dollar and made Argentina uncompetitive with it's neighbours, despite the high inflation.
It also says that CFK's opposite policy of issuing pesos and internal debt was pushing up inflation, sometimes it seems there is just no way to win.
@golfcronie
Jun 25th, 2017 - 02:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Your claim that Cristina took Argentina to the “financial abyss” appears to refer to today's reality more than to CFK.
If you had taken the time to read the article from Spain's El Pais as DT did, you would have learned a few key facts.
The article does state, as DT has noted, that CFK's weak side was to print pesos which fed inflation.
However, the current government's strategy of borrowing (about $100 billion in a very short period) to fight inflation (while hurting domestic economic activity) really brings to mind your phrase of taking Argentina to “financial abyss.”
@DT
Appreciate your comment on El Pais article.
You are correct in pointing out, as the article does, to the weakness of CFK's government strategy of printing pesos and creating internal debt.
However, and without being an economist, I note that CFK's policies fortified the domestic market, which is now being seriously hurt by the current government. With reduced domestic activity, SMEs are being bled to death, closing doors or curtailing activity, letting employees go and paying less taxes.
Macri's strategy of opening wide the door to imports to push domestic prices down while borrowing abroad was tried before--the 1976-1983 military dictatorship did--with disastrous results.
Macri's economic strategy is clearly a no-win. Why? Because it's totally unsustainable in the mid-term and is saddling Argentina with heavy debt repayments while it fails to generate any such repayment capacity, leading the country to a dead end. However, the strategy has its supporters. Banks and financial institutions are making millions in commissions, while short-term investment from abroad makes huge surpluses buying Lebacs in pesos, cashing in high interest rates, and flying away in a moment at the slightest sign of change.
That is what makes the El Pais reporter note: “...Argentina has become the star of the markets after a decade's absence.”
No wonder.
I thought that Argentina would have a problem with the amount of plastic waste that the country generates without inviting CFK to add a huge amount more.
Jun 25th, 2017 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@EM
Jun 25th, 2017 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I'm not an economist either, but it seems to me that a lot of CFK's policies were unsustainable. If you don't approve of Macri borrowing to cover the deficit, I presume you didn't approve of CFK borrowing or printing money in order to subsidise gas and electric bills? The money could much better be spent on things like education and infrastructure, or not spent at all to help balance the budget. However cutting them was guaranteed to be unpopular, which is probably why she didn't do it. And with the vulture funds, at some point it is no longer worth the trouble of fighting and it's better just to pay them to put an end to the episode. Similarly with propping up the peso vs the dollar, wasn't that one of the main contributors to the default in 2001? So as I said in the other thread, I think Macri had to change things, but I don't think he has done a particularly good job, either in his choice of policies or especially in their implementation.
More generally, it seems to me that a lot of people, both economists and not, are wedded to one theory, and want to treat every economic problem with the same 'cure', whether it is appropriate to the situation or not. And they are not too willing to look at cases where it has failed in the past, either.
“Macri's economic strategy is clearly a no-win. Why? Because it's totally unsustainable in the mid-term and is saddling Argentina with heavy debt repayments while it fails to generate any such repayment capacity, leading the country to a dead end. However, the strategy has its supporters. Banks and financial institutions are making millions in commissions, while short-term investment from abroad makes huge surpluses buying Lebacs in pesos, cashing in high interest rates, and flying away in a moment at the slightest sign of change.”
Jun 25th, 2017 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Well said Enrique Massot,the voice of reason.
Elaine - “And, no, CFK does not have the same status as Evita and never will.”
She already has a greater status to me, and to many. Both Kirchner's were better than either Peron, and in each couple the woman turned out to be better than the man - Eva by being progressive at all, Cristina by being even greater than the genius Nestor. Just my subjective opinion of course - but from the point of view of left Labourism, which is feeling quite vindicated right now by events in Britain =)
Hi:
Jun 26th, 2017 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is very interesting. If Cristina runs for the Senate, it is because she wants to avoid jail. If she doesn't run, it is because she is no longer a force in politics and has been completely defeated by Macri. Either way, she cannot do anything right. Are some posters biased? Nooooo!
Let me emphasize something. I'm not a Peronist and never was. On the other hand, I do not consider Peronism to be evil, either. IMHO, it is a political party that represents the left, the right, and the middle. When Argentines vote for a Peronist candidate they so to know if they are voting for François Hollande, Emmanuel Macron, or Marine Le Pen. Let me paraphrase the famous American humorist Will Rogers: “I do not belong to an organized political party, I'm a Peronist.”
To those who think that Peronism is dead and/or in disarray, will they ever be surprised? Peronism has been dying for the last 75 year, but they keep winning elections. According to the “brain” Bartolome Mitre III, editor in chief of La Nacion and a direct descendent of Bartolome Mitre I, only the “lower classes vote for Peronism.” I hate to inform “the brain” that the lower classes are between 54% to 65% of Argentines. Neo-liberal elitist? Nooooo! Just a recalcitrant aristocrat-olygarch.
Bartolome Mitre III reminds me of Marcus Aurelius, the stoic philosopher and Roman Emperor and his son Commodus, also a Roman Emperor and a Gladiator who perished in the arena: Son not like father or in this case, great-great grandson.
Hektor
@Hektor
Jun 26th, 2017 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If Cristina runs for the Senate, it is because she wants to avoid jail. If she doesn't run, it is because she is no longer a force in politics and has been completely defeated by Macri. Either way, she cannot do anything right.”
I know this was supposed to be a commentary on posters here, but a third option would be for someone else from her party to run. The ideas are more important than the person, or at least, I think it is healthier for politics when they are.
And if it's true that only the lower classes vote for Peronism, then the aim for Bartolome Mitre III and his ilk should be to get as many people as possible out of the lower classes and into the middle class.
But it seems they do not understood this.
@DT
Jun 26th, 2017 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...if it's true that only the lower classes vote for Peronism, then the aim for Bartolome Mitre III and his ilk should be to get as many people as possible out of the lower classes and into the middle class...But it seems they do not understood this.”
You got it. This is the essence of the Argentine oligarchy, a concept so hard to grasp by any citizen of a developed, western capitalist country.
An Argentine oligarch, similarly to other Latin American oligarchs, is somebody who hates social inclusion. In their mind, the less schooled people are the better. As I said before, they do not even want a modern capitalist economy to take off in the country. They are outraged at the concept of rural workers' rights, as well as that of domestic employees who are often undeclared.
This selfish sector of the Argentina society that keeps coming back to power--by coup d'etat formerly, by lying during election campaigns more recently--is responsible for Argentina's backwardness. They do not want a modern, sustainable and independent but a semi-feudal country where they can still be lords.
Tell us Enrique as you are so informed, how would you turn the country around as I am intrigued. What is the answer? You seem to have opposites here. You have Cristinas's policy take from the rich and give to the poor ( that didn't work well ) and the poor trebled in size. Now you have Macri and you say that he gives to the rich and gives nothing to the poor. The answer is what?
Jun 26th, 2017 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@GC
Jun 27th, 2017 - 03:03 am - Link - Report abuse -1“You have Cristinas's policy take from the rich and give to the poor...”
I believe your view of Kirchnerist politics is a bit simplistic, but it's never to late to learn more.
You should check your assumption that those politics “didn't work well.” While it is true that CFK government faced difficulties, those problems pale in comparison of what's going on today, and especially what will be happening further down the road if things continue as now. Even Macri's massive indebtedness is possible because of the Kirchners' debt reduction policies.
You see, our oligarchies do not think much of the lower classes. In their view, they are uncivilized, lazy, and must be harshly treated so that they do some work, must not be paid too much or they will eat and drink too much and skip work, etc. They don't place their money and their hopes in their own country, but admire the central, “civilized” ones where they go regularly to shop and entertain, and where they send their kids to be “properly” educated. Their economic principles reflect that. They believe the only way is to get loans from abroad (which means economic and financial opportunities for the few) and don't care about industrializing the country and developing the domestic economy. Macri's early measure of lifting taxes to agro exports benefits strictly that minority, while killing the export taxes on mining products benefits the multinationals operating on that field.
On the other hand, Kirchnerists believe in making Argentina a normal country with a developed domestic sector where production and consumption increases to create a dynamic economy. Dependency on other countries must be reduced. The state must have a presence to ensure the common good is achieved. Public services and key, strategic corporations should be in the hands of the state and not in private, for-profit corporations hands. There is nothing really revolutionary in all of this, although in L.A. it may be considered as such.
Hektor: “If Cristina runs for the Senate, it is because she wants to avoid jail. If she doesn't run, it is because she is no longer a force in politics and has been completely defeated by Macri. Either way, she cannot do anything right. Are some posters biased? Nooooo!”
Jun 27th, 2017 - 07:52 am - Link - Report abuse -2I think you've got it. Its almost like there's an agreement here between kneejerk anti-Argie Brits/Falklanders, and right-wing anti-K Argentines, though since it was the Argentine right that invaded in 1982 that would be bizarre wouldn't it? That said there's actually been a better discussion in the last part of this thread than I remember, moving away from the clichés and trolling to a real discussion of the issues, you and Enrique have done well in raising the tone
Cristinas policies did not help the poor it only made more of them, and what about all the “ workers on the black ”, that's what you get with the government running things,Turn up for work “ clockin ” and then bugger off and do no work.
Jun 27th, 2017 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@EM
Jun 27th, 2017 - 03:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see a lot of people, on this site and elsewhere, attributing bad motives to their opponents. They say CFK was not interested in helping the poor, but only in enriching herself. They accuse YOU of wanting the current government to fail even if it causes more suffering. So why should I believe that Argentina's oligarchs hate the poor and want to make them poorer, and will hobble their own country to do it?
So CFK lives in Sta Cruz province (sort of my neighbour, on this side of Río Gallegos, where she has legal residency). But she is running as senator from Buenos Aires province? She can't even vote in Bs As province.
Jun 28th, 2017 - 02:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0ML Who cares? Do you think they won't know who she is outside her own backyard? Are her politics correct in her home province and incorrect elsewhere? This is the very silly localism that is sometimes used against national political figures of the left here in Britain who run outside of “their own” area, funnily enough the same people never complained so much when Blair was parachuting his flunkies into safe Labour seats...
Jun 28th, 2017 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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