MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
The United Kingdom Needs More Europe, Not Less
By Mike Gapes (*) For the future security and stability of our country, our continent and the world this is the worst possible moment for the UK to be leaving the European Union. Unfortunately, we are planning to leave our European partners at a time when there is going to be less and less agreement amongst the most important countries about how to deal with current and emerging global problems. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesWhat a good job the Labour doomsters aren't running Britain!
Aug 01st, 2017 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +2We must be living in Bizzaro world when it's the left who are worrying about national security and our global influence, not to mention promoting the importance of the finance industry and government listening to business.
Aug 01st, 2017 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -3It still amazes me how the supposedly patriotic posters here just don't give a damn about Britain's power and influence in the world. And seeing how little they really care about the economy - if it stands in the way of something they want - has certainly changed my opinion of those on the right.
@TV
Yeah, just think, we might have a coalition of chaos propped up by dodgy deals with small regional parties, a government filled with infighting and backstabbing with no plan for Brexit, and a PM widely regarded as weak, who doesn't have the confidence of their MPs!
“ ...Mike Gapes is the Labour MP for Ilford South...”
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 01:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0I always thought he represented Piddlehinton and the Piddle Valley.
Never heard of him! His views are not consistent with Labour Party intentions! Why has this article been published here on Mercopress?
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 06:33 am - Link - Report abuse +2TWIMC
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 06:47 am - Link - Report abuse -4Engrishmen & women...
Keep resolutely, dutifully and unwaveringly your direct course to free- dooooooooooooom....
Chuckle..., chuckle...
UK economy is about to surge back to life, says leading forecaster https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/02/uk-economy-surge-life-leading-forecaster-jagjit-chadh?CMP=share_btn_tw
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 07:49 am - Link - Report abuse +3Has nobody told this old fart that the UN General Assembly Resolutions carry no weight and are not binding? Has nobody told the old fart that NATO is the Defence power in Europe - not a bunch of political wishywashers groups he witters about?
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 10:36 am - Link - Report abuse +2Has this old fart not realised that the Falklands -and Gibraltar are covered annually in the UN farcical Comm of 24 anyway- FI and Gib both loose each time there but we do not care as its a pointless meaningless talkshop anyway.
Has nobody told the old fart that the ONLY UN organisation with power is the Security Council- and there UK also has a veto.
Well, Think, it certainly doesn't concern you or the horses arse. Tell us, how will life in Brook Street change after Brexit, and why are we supporting your application to the OECD and hosting the G20 summit?
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Brexit is a disaster for the UK. The shame of it is the majority that voted for it will be dead by the time the true catastrophe is revealed. The millennial generation will have the hardest time as this is the first taste of really difficult times and we have all grown entitled.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse -1I was reading about the reality of Free Movement after Brexit. All those people that wanted their country back will have to try to get back into their own country. I can't see many of them affording it and where are they going to live?
The hard times for millennials are primarily caused by too many people in Britain and not enough homes being built. Hopefully after Brexit some will leave freeing up places to live for both the millennials and those wishing to return. Some people who were born after 1960 might feel entitled, but those of us who recall the really hard times during to 50s and early 60s after WWII are the ones that really appreciate what we Britons currently enjoy. Do you really think those who voted leave wished to inflict a worse life in our children and grandchildren? At the moment how things will turn out is a matter of opinion, not a fact. What is tiresome though is the constant whining from people who seem to believe leaving will cause havoc. The world's other first world nations seem to get on perfectly well without being members of the European Union.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Most of my friends and acquaintances and I voted to stay IN Europe as did my wife and my son and my daughter who both work for multinationals with close affiliation to the EU. However, having heard the threatening behaviour from the EU negotiators one wonders why Art 30 of the Treaty of Lisbon was “concocted”? Surely if membership of the EU is/was sacrosanct there would be no need for Art 30 as no member would want to leave or even consider departure?
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 02:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +3I think you mean Article 50 @gordo1 - a simple slip of the finger?
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Do you really think those who voted leave wished to inflict a worse life in our children and grandchildren?”
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, I don't suppose so. Most strongly wanted to leave due to other reasons such as dislike of change and foreigners, and managed to convince themselves that the effect on the economy would not be so bad (helped along by an unhealthy dose of propaganda; “we can have our cake and eat it”, “we send the EU £350m a week, let's fund our NHS instead”, “people are tired of experts”, “Project Fear”. Those last two were very clever, they enabled people to dismiss all the uncomfortable facts and contrary evidence without even having to think about them.)
Unlike Enrique I don't believe many people are out to make their country a worse place, and I think a lot of politicians are sincere. That doesn't stop people disagreeing on how to go about improving things or even what constitutes an improvement.
People seem to think they know all the reasons so many of us voted to leave the EU. All the people I know who voted leave had held a firm opinion for many many years and were nothing to do with the propaganda and lies so often peddled by Remoaners.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 04:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +1The Marstricht treaty was a turning point and Blair's invite to the poverty stricken Eastern European nations to come right in and swamp us was another.
We are capable of deciding who can come here to the country our fathers built and fought for, and capable of drafting and enacting our own laws. In the past we have been champions of worldwide free trade and it doesn't suit us to live our lives behind a protectionist inward looking German dominated EU wall.
Leaving will no doubt be difficult and painful, and it will take a lot of effort to a correct the tiresome impositions of the EU, but in the long term Britain will become a better place.
HughJuanCoeurs
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for your comment! I did mean Art 50, of course - typing error!
What DT said. No, I also don't believe people deliberately set out to destroy the country but instead were ill-informed about the advantages of being part of a large trading bloc, both for financial and peace reasons. For too long politicians used the EU as a whipping-boy for everything that they did wrong and people believed it. Also, the majority of our media is owned by foreigners all too happy for the U.K. to be less wealthy. I think the Leave voters were gullible suckers.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@TV your really are uniformed about immigrants. The majority that come here are of graduate level education and come to fill vacancies we cannot, to make us more prosperous and advanced. You are like the people who think we can get rid of NHS foreign workers and replace them with all-white-looking British people. We will never produce enough doctors and nurses that satisfy your peculiar criteria to staff the NHS. The whole system would grind to a halt if the foreign workers were to leave in the next two years. Some are already leaving because they don't believe their jobs are secure long-term.
And what about the job opportunities for our millennial? They were able to work anywhere they wanted to in Europe with all the opportunities they could enjoy. Now that has been closed to them. And I am pretty sure a lot of them won't want to remain in an impoverished U.K. alongside the idiots that ruined it for them.
The people who 'wanted their country back' are a deluded bunch living in the past. You can never go back and now they have buggered up the future for the next generations. It isn't 'whining' to say what you don't want to hear, TV, it is the truth.
I have friends who are Christian missionaries. They work in Bulgaria 6 months each year. They say that Bulgaria is on its knees, like Romania and Greece. Why? Because anyone with any skills has left, lots of young skilled people too. The EU is the worse thing ever to have happened to Bulgaria and Romania. I didn't realise all those foreign plasterers, carpenters hotel workers and carers driving down wages here were graduates? You will still be able to work anywhere like you used too before we joined the EU.. Why not seek asylum over the channel in the promised land, better than that call centre.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@DT
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 07:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why, DT, thank you for remembering me in a thread I am a bit reluctant to comment on.
I do share your belief that a lot of politicians are sincere, however there is a big difference between countries with strong, developed capitalism and countries with developing, dependent, distorted economies, be it Latin America, Africa or else.
Wealthy people in such countries are obscenely wealthy, look down on their country people while admiring the developed countries, where they educate their children and where they'd go if things turn out real bad.
Their way of thinking is similar to that portrayed by Marti, who thinks anything worthwhile ever to happen in Argentina was done by the British. Of course they don't think they are trying to make their country worse--they just want to put people at their place! And while Peronism's general theory is to distribute national income 50-50, they aim for 70-30, and they do not see anything wrong with that. Of course, 30 per cent is for the workers.
These people are now fully supporting Mauricio Macri, even if Macri's economic policies are sinking the country as a whole. They care little because their economic base is pretty diversified, both inside and outside of the country. What's more, they are making a killing with the high interest rates and the flexibility to bring in and take out capital and profits altogether.
Oh, and about Brexit. I would've never voted for it. I am a huge fan of the EU.
“It isn't 'whining' to say what you don't want to hear, TV, it is the truth.”
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 07:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Exactly.
@TV
You may have always wanted to leave the EU but we know from the polls that many people changed their minds during the campaign.
“We are capable of deciding who can come here to the country our fathers built and fought for, and capable of drafting and enacting our own laws.”
Who has said otherwise?
“In the past we have been champions of worldwide free trade and it doesn't suit us to live our lives behind a protectionist inward looking German dominated EU wall.”
When the UK was a giant exporter of industrial goods, we were champions of free trade because it benefited us. More recently we have been just like the other countries in the EU: we insisted on our own interests being considered in any trade deal, making it hard to reach n agreement.
But the other thing I see, is how little enthusiasm there is for the UK trading with Argentina and Brazil when it is mentioned here. The same people who dislike the UK seem to also dislike the idea of any other deal.
And no, we will not still be able to work in Europe after Brexit. Ending freedom of movement goes both ways.
@gordo1
http://en.mercopress.com/2017/07/20/uk-ex-top-diplomat-warns-of-disastrous-consequences-of-brexit
@EM
Sorry for invoking you in a thread you weren't involved in! To me Macri's policies seem quite similar to what our politicians do, so why would you believe they were sincere if he is not?
I didn't think you would have voted for Brexit, so glad to know I am right.
“Wealthy people in such countries are obscenely wealthy, look down on their country people while admiring the developed countries, where they educate their children and where they'd go if things turn out real bad. ”
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like you you mean! Lol! Except you are already there..
@TV
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure, except for how not one part of that description fits him, it's just like him.
By the way, Romania and Bulgaria have been on their knees since the end of communism, and the EU is helping them get off their knees. They are not the ones voting to leave.
Still, if Brexit goes badly you will get to find out what it's like living in a country where young and skilled people are leaving.
@EM
To add, I don't think our politicians are always sincere. For example, I believe Boris Johnson decided to support Brexit in order to further his own career, rather than out of conviction. I think that others such as Gove are sincere however.
According to my friends ( who aren't liars) things are now far worse in Bulgaria than they were under communism. Most of the skilled people teachers and medical professionals have left.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.dw.com/en/brain-drain-from-bulgaria-and-romania-helps-germany/a-36936406
http://www.dw.com/en/brain-drain-from-bulgaria-and-romania-helps-germany/a-36936406
http://www.dw.com/en/brain-drain-from-bulgaria-and-romania-helps-germany/a-36936406
That's without any research..
I must say when I here comments like those of Elaine's I truly despair. My family and myself and many friends voted leave for various reasons but none were motivated by racism or bigotry as insinuated in E comment. And can I please add my city is flooded with unemployed migrants who have put extrem pressure on GP surgerys hospitals dentists etc etc etc.
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On another note anyone will be able to apply to work in the EU or the UK via Visa applications like many other country's. We are not leaving planet earth.
@TV
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Your friends have been visiting Bulgaria since the 80s? Frankly I don't believe things are worse now than under communism.
But what is your point? Your article confirms what Elaine said, that Britain is currently benefiting from skilled immigration, which makes it even more foolish to vote to leave the EU.
@Jeffski
Welcome to the site. I have never heard anyone complain about unemployed (EU) migrants before. My town is full of employed migrants, so people complain they are taking all the jobs instead. And the majority of the doctors and dentists I have seen for many years have also been immigrants, I think there would be a lot more pressure without them.
And yes, people will be able to apply for visas in future. Businesses will just love the increased bureaucracy and red tape. Workers will love having less rights and more uncertainly. Bulgaria will still have no doctors, but they'll be moving to Germany instead of the UK because it's a lot easier.
DT
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“And no, we will not still be able to work in Europe after Brexit. Ending freedom of movement goes both ways. ”
Where did you come up with this ?
My understanding is that if you want a job in the EU or an EU citizen wants a job in the UK, their prospective employer will have to show the need for that person in their respective business.
I am sure that many jobs will be placed in that manner. It's no difference to what is applied to anyone seeking a job in Australia, New Zealand USA, Canada etc.
You seem to think that there is a flood of “talented” young people who will be denied jobs in the EU or vice versa in the UK.
There are a lot of “untalented” youngsters in the UK for whom the EU was never an option.
@Clyde15
Aug 02nd, 2017 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are right, it won't be impossible to get a job in Europe after Brexit. But it won't be like it is now, where you can pretty much just move to a new country and get any job you're qualified for. There's no paperwork, there doesn't have to be a skills shortage; you can go and work in a bar if someone will employ you. You can also go and retire anywhere in Europe.
I know people who have gone to work in the US and you have to have a skill that is not available there. Basically their prospective employer had to sign something to say no US citizen could do that job, fill in a lot of forms and also pay a big fee. For the ones who were married, their spouse could not work. It's a high bar for most people.
There was nothing stopping those 'untalented' youngsters from moving to Germany or Norway or where ever they might think they could do better, except, I imagine, having to learn a new language.
And we know people from the EU will be denied jobs in the UK; that was one of the main objectives of the Brexit voters. No one can imagine the EU won't put the same restrictions on British citizens in response.
We can all see the flaws in those arguments. A load of uninformed tosh. My friends first went to Bulgaria immediately after Eastern Europe opened up. You have to have language skills to work abroad, not as simple as you are making out.
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 06:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0These supposed flaws weren't obvious enough for you to actually name any. I said myself that (lack of) language skills is the main thing stopping people working abroad.
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 08:36 am - Link - Report abuse +1And I still don't believe people in Bulgaria are worse off overall now than under communism. If you do believe that, shouldn't you be recommending they return to it?
The problem with the millenials is that they are not prepared to start at the bottom like everyone else, they think the world owes them a living, they don't think that there should be or indeed are any consequences for what they get up to, what they put in their bodies or what they do to others. When it all goes wrong for them its somebody else's fault or not fair. People like Mike Gapes only support democracy whilst it goes their way.
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Further to 75% of EMA staff unwilling to relocate from London to some place or other elsewhere in the EU...
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0From a Bankster -
”Another banker tells me that, based on early polling of his staff, the only ones he could get to leave London will be the single or the mediocre.
And...
Offered the prospect of a move overseas, one of his most talented hires, a 30-something woman, replied simply: “I would rather die than live in Zurich.”
Which is where they were saying banking would move, but it's outside the EU anyway lol!
The asylum seekers are queueing up again across the channel, wonder why?
London has huge advantages, the premier one being English, and not only at work, at play too, theatres, kulchar, schooling all at lower costs than mainland Europe.
@Capt Rockhopper
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 10:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0So you think the millennials are unfairly blaming immigrants for taking jobs, when the truth is they are just not willing to do those jobs themselves?
And an MP publishing his opinion is not undermining democracy! Quite the contrary, providing a real choice to the voters is essential for its function.
@TV
So what? Their jobs are moving, either they get new ones or change their minds. A lot of people working in the City came from abroad anyway, people go where the jobs are.
I notice you still can't name any flaw in my arguments but changed the subject instead, what a surprise.
Pointless.. you admit you haven't experienced anything much, havent travelled widely, seem to believe everything that Google says,, and appear gullible. Better to rely on my own experiences and the experiences of people I know whose opinions I respect and trust.
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Meaning that you are unable to find any flaws in my arguments, but don't want to admit that I might have a point. I suppose it is more comfortable to stick with people who agree with you and don't challenge your beliefs, and to ignore any contrary evidence you are shown.
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ TV
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 12:02 pm - Link - Report abuse -1You are basing your assertions on very little other than other people like you who love to moan. You should move out of the echo chamber you live in. Bulgaria under communism was a terrible place with the kinds of queues and lack of goods you now see in Venezuela. Foolish old codgers who look back to 'the good old days' are fantastic at editing out the reality of the past. It is a measure of a person's closeness to death that they only look back and not forward.
If we lose our financial headquarters of Europe status we will all be a lot poorer. The service industry is our biggest industry (and contributor to our economy). You may have a friend who moved to Zurich for to benefit personally from lower taxes but didn't think the sacrifice was worth it but that is a whole world away from having to move because there are no jobs for them in London.
@ DT you made some good points. We absolutely will not have the freedom of movement to work and live anywhere in Europe. This is a huge blow. And what about the 1m+ UK pensioners who have retired in Europe. They may well be asked to leave as they are a huge drain on social services and medical resources. And if TV has his way and the foreign workers are kicked out of the U.K. who is going to care for them in the U.K? Like many Leave voters, he really hasn't thought it through.
@ jeffski Sorry about your despair. Don't worry, it will only get worse.
@CP A bit harsh. There is a definite entitlement attitude across the board. Some millennial assume a degree will entitle them to walk into a great job and they were mis-sold that by the government and education industry. You can't blame them entirely. Now their opportunities have been further reduced by Brexit I don't blame them for complaining.
I'm so glad that it was explained who Mike Gapes is. I never heard of him!
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I wonder if people like Elaine ever do any research. For instance, an article on another “news” site only today clearly stated that there are 2.2 million EU “workers” in the UK. That means that there are 1.1 million europeans that are only “contributing” peripherally, eg VAT. So “we” can do without them taking up accommodation, education and health facilities and generally getting in the way. Labour, of course, like europeans because they are socialists. Otherwise described as the “race to the bottom”. A little bit of logic comes in here. If you've shared out everything out equally, who has the money to invest?
A question that always occurs to me. If europeans are so essential to our national well being, how did we manage for a thousand years without them? I expect that when some adventurous English people set out for India and North America in their little ships, a lot of people thought they'd never return. Whatever happened to that little “experiment”?
“If europeans are so essential to our national well being, how did we manage for a thousand years without them?”
Aug 03rd, 2017 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Such a nonsensical question would only occur to someone like you. We have certainly never been able to ignore Europe in the last 1000 years (or 2000), for both good and ill. Only a fool would think we can do so now. Napoleon rather famously tried to cut off Britain's trade with Europe, and did not succeed, but now you want us to do it to ourselves.
England will return the Malvinas within 25 years.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 02:01 am - Link - Report abuse -3@ Conquerer
Aug 04th, 2017 - 08:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0I was talking about retirees not working people. Try again.
We have always had immigration. Seriously, brush up on a little history.
Conquerers point is well made. Britain has been swamped with immigrants, too many too fast. We cannot cope, and this has created a housing crisis for the young in particular. It's also robbing the retired via the bank of Mum and Dad. In theory we can control non EU immigrants but in our usual incompetent fashion our government hasn't managed that. EU immigration is totally uncontrolled. Many non racist leavers want it controlled, not stopped. Had the EU sensibly recognised that and allowed us to control it Brexit wouldn't have happened at all. Of course there is indignation about the way that immigration has caused wages for lower paid jobs to stagnate and
Aug 04th, 2017 - 09:49 am - Link - Report abuse +2the priority given to housing large immigrant families ahead of long standing British born residents.
At the moment we definitely need less Europe.
@ TV
Aug 04th, 2017 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -3You read and believe the Daily Mail don't you.
The Voice
Aug 04th, 2017 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I live in a large island university city in the South of England. I do NOT recognise any of the situations you describe - what I DO recognise in the UK at the present time are politics of envy causing our society to disintegrate leading to BREXIT which is collectively the worst decision ever taken in the history of our great country!
I don't read the Daily Fascist Elaine, it's a hateful rag. But unlike you apparently I do know and socialise with a lot of ordinary working people and listen to and acknowledge the concerns of the many young people in my family.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gordo, my wife is from Pompey, we were married in Portchester Castle. Our boat was once kept in Camper and Nicholson's and I remember the Gay Enterprise! The politics of envy is the stance of the Corbynistas and extreme left. It doesn't have very much to do with Brexit which has been caused principally by uncontrolled immigration and letting inflexible German politicians make the rules.
You both need to get out more and listen to the grafters.
@TV You should read the DM, it is exactly your point of view and you seem to like to live in an echo chamber.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 01:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“But unlike you apparently ” You know nothing about who I socialise with and I think you need to get out of your armchair and listen to people outside of friends and family - the only opinions you quote. As I have said, you live in an echo chamber of like-minded people and that makes your perspective very narrow. My work takes me all over the world and to engage with people of all walks of life. My social circle is of the most disparate backgrounds so I trust my much broader perspective to be far more accurate. Your posts alone show you have very little understanding of the broader implications of Brexit but prefer to just look at how it will effect you and how it can reinforce your prejudices. You are very typical of your age group whose world becomes very small so I am not sure why you choose to attack DT who has years ahead of him to explore the world and already has a much more open mind.
Elaine, I can see where you are coming from. I prefer to listen to people and think and reason about what concerns them and why they think that way than issue clearly biased and disgusting ageist rhetoric like you and others on here.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 02:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please explain why you think you can admit 3 to 4 million people, many from poor countries into Britain, then build very few houses and not cause a housing crisis? And on top of that reduce interest rates to ridiculous levels leading retirees and the wealthy to snap up property for buy to let forcing up prices to ridiculous levels and adding to the immigrant fueled housing crisis?
My world is very large actually with all sorts of interests pursuits, disparate groups of friends all over the world and one close family member who will have visited 25 countries this year and myself 8.
I am ignoring the “immigrant problem” although in some areas - not mine- it is causing problems and resentment.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What I question is the large pool of young people who are desperate to leave the UK and work in the EU. I would assume that these are a well educated group with skills to market. This is not the case of the majority of 18-30 year olds.
Any youngsters I have talked with contemplating emigrating, want to go to Australia, N.Zealand or Canada where the culture is basically similar to ours.
The ones favouring the EU want Spain to “work or run a bar or disco”
Some like Ireland but do not regard it as an EU country.
The bulk of the young population have “jobs” - not careers - and probably could not transfer these to any EU country without being fluent in the language.
DT
“Napoleon rather famously tried to cut off Britain's trade with Europe, and did not succeed, but now you want us to do it to ourselves.”
Who says we want to cut off our trade with Europe ? We want to trade with Europe and the rest of the world BUT the EU are the ones who want to cut us off because we want to control immigration...not stop it !
If you see what is happening at airports now with huge queues trying to get through immigration control, it appears that the EU is now back-pedaling about having no border checks.
If they had agreed to this when we brought up the subject, we would have had no serious complaints about staying in.
@ TV
Aug 04th, 2017 - 04:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah, I did my research, listening and reasoning before coming to this site. Your stance is cemented and consistent - nothing to consider. Your post, as always, reveals the ONLY reason you voted for Brexit is because of your ill-informed view of immigrants which echoes the foreign owned Daily Mail. Seriously, you will find fuel and misinformation to sate your desire to blame immigrants for everything in that paper. Are you disappointed about the demise of UKIP?
Only 25 countries? Oh, dear, and as if that proves anything.
I would rather have less immigration, I just don't think it's worth leaving the EU over. Also I don't trust our government to actually achieve it given their notably unsuccessful attempt to reduce non-EU immigration, and I would prefer immigrants from more similar societies to less similar ones.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 04:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Clyde15, there are a reasonable number of Brits working in the EU but there is not a large pool desperate to go. I was only disagreeing with those who said Brexit would make no difference to how easy this is.
Since Brexit will surely reduce trade with Europe, that IS what we have chosen to do, albeit for other reasons. And the Schengen area was always supposed to have external border checks; they weren't following their own rules before now.
@The Voice
You don't seem happy when people disagree with you on here. Would you rather only hear opinions that agree with yours? I guess this is why people end up living in echo chambers.
Clyde, nice to hear something reasoned and sensible in this subject. Try reasoning with the Germans who are firmly in charge of the EU. I have tried it often in the past, it doesn't work, they cannot be wrong. I found in the past you have to go around them.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Unfortunately massive and rapid immigration has left us with a very difficult situation. Now house prices are at Stratospheric levels. People have obtained 100% mortgages, and very high income multiples. Falling house prices will trap people in these homes and if they default leave the bank's clutching assets bigger than the loans they made. A repeat of 2008. Meanwhile youngsters now in their teens pay massive rents and have to relocate to remote places to afford to buy.
As for the queues, obviously a punishment beating for us Brits that needs to be solved quickly. Michael O'Leary is on the case.
The Voice
Aug 04th, 2017 - 04:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I am a “downsizer” in Southsea having lived most of my working life in Latin America, Spain and the USA. My wife and I chose Portsmouth because of the excellent ferry services to Franc and to Spain - we live literally 10 minutes from the ferry terminal.
Portsmouth voted, sensibly, in the referendum to STAY in Europe.
Gordo, you chose a nice town. I passed through the terminal a couple of weeks ago returning from our family place in Brittany. Whether leaving the EU is sensible or not is a matter of opinion! Time will tell.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Living in an echo chamber? DT, you should know all about that!
And as for UKIP they are just a bunch of idiots, many of them clearly racist. Their only redeeming feature is that they helped us get a referendum.
Folk need to learn the difference between not liking unrestricted immigration and not liking immigrants. Muddled thinkers seem to be incapable of distinguishing the difference.
@ TV So immigration was the only reason you voted for Brexit. I think you are going to be very disappointed then. I doubt there will be any measurable difference to legal immigration because we need them. As for illegal, we have left the club so what is to stop France from helping the illegals on their way to our shores. As part of the EU they were obliged to stop them.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am still not hearing a solution to immigrants leaving our NHS vastly understaffed.
Elaine, it was the principal reason yes. I fear you may be right we seem incapable of doing anything properly. Too many compromises.
Aug 04th, 2017 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have always disliked the EUs protectionist inward looking one size fits all stance and think we need to escape for the sake of the long term. Wealth and economic success isn't everything.
@TV
Aug 04th, 2017 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +1In real life I can only think of 3 people who voted for Brexit. Reading this site helps me get out of the echo chamber since many of the posters support Brexit and most disagree with me about various other things.
Perhaps me posting here also helps you get out of the echo chamber, since you said most people you know in real life agree with you?
You are right that there is a difference between not liking unrestricted immigration vs not liking immigrants, but you are also right that many in UKIP claim the former while clearly being the latter. This tends to poison the issue.
I don't agree that we need the level of immigration we have been seeing, but we certainly need it in specific areas like the NHS, and it is an easy temporary fix for the increasing burden of pensions as people live longer. But if we are to have high immigration then we need enough investment in services to cope, and if we are not going to have it we need to make sure we train enough people and pay them enough to fill the jobs we have. The government seems reluctant to do either, and taxpayers are unwilling to pay for it too.
I went to my local hospital today and what did I see, five nurses in the staff room all having a good chat. I think the NHS needs a good shake up from the bottom up, and by the way you see nurses walking up and down with files, why can't things be computerised now?
Aug 04th, 2017 - 11:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +1For what it's worth, many of my local and more even-keeled argentine acquaintances and neighbours, as well several Brits visiting here in the past few months, have mostly supported Brexit. The local argentines, including a couple of anglo-argentines, cite the same perceived unbridled immigration issue, and the terms they used in discussing the matter would likely burn your ears. Even the peronistas here have no kind words for the uncontrolled immigration they believe took place in Argentina during the CFK regime, which is widely assumed to be from comparatively unwholesome sources. And this province doesn't have the sort of illegal-immigration objection conditions seen further north.
Aug 05th, 2017 - 01:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0The history of immigration here is curious. In 1900 only about half of the residents in this province were actually Argentines (they didn't count the indigenous folks) and those were mostly transitory, involved in the military or other government functions. Meanwhile, the other half, the immigrants counted as legal, were an amusing mixture of mostly Brits (and largely via the Falklands) but also Germans, Spanish, Chilenos, so -called “Austrians” (who were actually Croatians), and a handful of Swiss, French, and Italian. Two-thirds of the recorded property owners were non-argentines at that time, and mostly British. By 1914 there were twice as many foreigners as argentines here. The immigrant composition changed after WWI, when we start seeing more Russians and Italians down here, though for non-government functions English was for a long time the prevailing commercial language:
“...Se oyen casi exclusivamente voces inglesas. Se cree uno llegado a ‘Old England’ o por lo menos Las Malvinas con excepción de los empleados de la Capitanía, todo es inglés: dinero, ovejas, idiomas, bebidas, ladies and gentleman [sic]....”
.
I agree that we have always needed skilled immigrants in the NHS. My wife worked in it all her life. In the 60s she worked with Ukrainians, Egyptians, Philippinos, and later Irish, Caribbeans, Greeks, Indians, Danes and that's just just to mention some that have become lifelong friends apart from all the others. It's the same in our scientific establishments too, I had similar experiences.
Aug 05th, 2017 - 06:56 am - Link - Report abuse +1EB confuses the need for control of immigration with racism and little Englander syndrome. I am still waiting for Elaine to explain how we can admit millions of immigrants without building sufficient accomodation and not cause a housing crisis?
Of course we need folk from overseas, just not so many and just the ones we need in our crowded little country. We don't need the Romanian pickpocket gangs. The 29 year old plumber doing my bathroom last week was pretty forthright about how 3 bedroom houses containing up to 10 Eastern Europeans were affecting the availability of his work and lowering his wages. My teen and twenty something grandkids nieces and nephews will face huge problems with accomodation, some already are. There has to be a solution.
ML what you say shows clearly what a melting pot SA is. From my various visits to the extreme south I have gathered that it was government policy to attract immigrants to establish and grow the economy there which is why there are so many different nationalities. That's a great thing in your huge land mass, but here in Britain we have overtaken Holland in population density in many places and its rapidly becoming most unpleasant.
Golf cronie
Aug 05th, 2017 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0You saw 5 nurses in the “staff room” chatting. Are they not allowed a break ?
Most nursing staff and hospital doctors/consultants work way over their nominal contract hours for free !
Computerisation ? Didn't they try this and after £1 billion spent, guess what ...it didn't work !
Computers are fine for appointment fixing and tasks like that, but trying to collate medical records from doctor's surgeries, clinics and other hospitals in varying locations is a mammoth task. The first attempt failed maybe the “next”attempt will work but meantime pieces of paper do work.
NHS needs a shake up. I thought that this was a continuing political football .
Remember “private financing” ? What a good idea ...NOT !
If the Tories have their way, we will be having the superb American system as our model.
If you have the money ...fine. If you don't, sod off and die out of our sight.
Clyde15
Aug 05th, 2017 - 12:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“f the Tories have their way, we will be having the superb American system as our model.”
NONSENSE - The NHS is not, as idiot Corbyn barks whenever he can, property of the Labour Party. It is ours - that is to say, the entire British public. And that is the way it will stay with Tory governments. When it is viable and cheaper to contract out certain services, such as the diabetic eye examination, I see no ethical problem at all!
@ Golfcronie & Clyde15
Aug 05th, 2017 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Under Blair's government a scheme was launched to computerise the NHS system. After 10 billion pounds was spent, without any success, it was abandoned in 2013. That said, parts are computerised but not in any joined-up, useful way. I suspect the whole idea was simply to gather statistics as Blair was always hot for them.
As for nurses daring to take a break, that really is harsh. The majority work beyond their hours and rarely get their allotted breaks.
Politicians have always used the NHS to try to score points against the other party. It was formed with cross-part consensus and in very different times. No party has attempted to abandon it but some have tried to make it more affordable and streamlined.
The NHS was created by a Labour government, and not with cross party consensus: the Conservatives of the time opposed it. But now they know it is popular and they are not going to suggest removing it.
Aug 05th, 2017 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The problems today are underfunding, particularly under Conservative governments, and bits being contracted out to private companies who invariably make a lot of money and stick taxpayers with the bill. And yes, they tried to computerise the records but like many such over-ambitious projects it was a disaster.
Thirding the nurses needing to take a break. It's a legal requirement for all workers and do you really want the medical staff treating you to be overworked and overtired?
@Clyde15
I went bird watching with a friend today and saw bitterns, great white egrets, and a glossy ibis. Pretty cool.
What a coincidence. I sort of went bird-watching informally yesterday along Ruta 40 outside of Río Turbio (heading north toward Tapi Aike). Saw at least 10 condors within just a few minutes. Hard to be sure of a proper count when you're driving. And a number of caranchos. Sta Cruz province is famous for its caranchos, both the 2-legged and winged types.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 12:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0The British National Health Service should be depoliticised immediately and be run by proper managers. Spain and France, for example, have their equivalents and in neither country are they political “hot potatoes”.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 06:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0After 40 years in the NHS as a staff nurse, sister, senior nurse and at the end of her career seconded to IT to introduce computer systems, my wife doesn't know the answer. She and her peers heavily criticise the current way that nurses are trained. They seem to be becoming degreed mini doctors and often fail on the human caring side of their job. She says the NHS wastes money wholesale and needs better organisation, and money spent where it's needed. Managers should only be chosen from ex medical staff, not ex forces or industry's rejects.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse +1As a user my concerns are that the user interface stutters, there is a lack of continuity of treatment, but eventually you will get treated and treated well. Around here you are offered the choice of being treated in the NHS or sometimes two local private hospitals after NHS diagnosis. Having experienced the private hospitals, continuity was good and treatment prompt. As long as treatment is free at the point of delivery I don't have any qualms about treatment being delivered by a non NHS organisation.
To claim that the Tories want to privatise the NHS and move to an eye wateringly expensive insurance based system like the USA is simply misleading hyperbole.
DT /ML
Aug 06th, 2017 - 09:13 am - Link - Report abuse +1I was also out yesterday..as I am most days...looking at the bird life in my local area.
Autumn migration has already started up here. Sandwich Terns and their young are moving slowly south. Arctic waders are now appearing on our beaches, settling in for winter.
Flocks of Swallows and House Martins are increasing in size, fattening up for their journey to Africa. In about 3 weeks, we will have our first geese and Whooper swans arriving from Iceland.
It puts life in perspective...Brexit means nothing to them.
@ DT Actually the biggest opposition came from doctors. They were brought on board by being allowed to run simultaneous private practise which many do to this day. Without that they would never have signed up.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse +1The old 'underfunding' argument is really lazy. There is no amount of money that could adequately provide every form of treatment that everyone demands from cradle to grave. We all live much longer and treatments are ever more expensive. It definitely needs reform. People use A&E like an on call GP's surgery. People demand elective and often unnecessary treatment as if they are entitled.You have to look at it differently if we are to maintain something we all value so much. For a start they should repeatedly say that it is not FREE but FREE AT THE POINT OF USE. I would favour a print out of the cost of the treatment everyone receives when they leave. It would make people think about abusing the system.
@TV I agree about the managerial staff. I hear the same complaint from nurses and doctors I am acquainted with. Another very real problem is all the targets imposed on them. Not everything fits into a tick box record. So, you have clinical nurses working their weekends on double pay and time off in lieu because otherwise they won't hit a target that will financially penalise a hospital. Or cancer clinics held on Christmas Eve because they have to hit a target of diagnosis within two weeks etc. The humanity is taken out of what is a caring profession. Likewise the league tables for surgeons is entirely misleading to a layperson. Who would want to take the most tricky and difficult cases if it was going to fudge your stats and lead people to believe you are incompetent?
All that said, I would trust my life with the NHS and feel lucky that we have it.
One thing I really love about the US is the way they highlight taxes. No PAYE you have to cough up YOUR money for taxes once a year. Then theres local taxes, you go into a shop and all the prices are plus tax, taxes are thus highlighted. I havent used the healthcare system there but I am sure you get to see the bill. Highlighting taxes and costs brings it home to you the enormous cost of the State and what it costs. Its a good thing.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see this morning from the Guardian that Vince Cable has joined 'never had a proper job' Willets vilifyjng the old for voting for Brexit. If you look at the voting pattern on Brexit it shows an increasing propensity to vote leave the older you get and a decreasing propensity the younger you are. So, its just not us real oldsters that voted leave, but as you get older leave voting is more likely. This squashes the theory that those of us with experience of post imperial Britain were the only ones voting to leave. The age/% graphs I have seen were perfect straight lines. The Liberals havent really got any USPs, so this marks them out as different. Like Nick Clegg and the swivel eyed loon that followed him I believe the Liberals will regret choosing Vince.
I lived and worked in the US for several years - as far as PAYE was concerned Federal, NY state and NY City income taxes were all deducted from my pay monthly.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was wrong then. Why does everyone talk about filing their taxes then?
Aug 06th, 2017 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, the biggest opposition to the NHS came from doctors but it's still not accurate to say there was cross-party support for it. However, the Tories are not campaigning to abolish it now.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's also true that the cost of healthcare is constantly increasing, but you can get a good idea of how efficient the NHS is by comparing to similar countries like France and Germany. Both spend considerably more per capita than the UK. Although there are always other factors, to a certain extent you do get what you pay for. And I think we all agree that targets can sometimes be counterproductive if not implemented sensibly. A big problem is that changes always come from above so are not well informed about real conditions and we get these perverse incentives, plus the front line staff feel like they have no control over anything and morale suffers.
@TV
I am really surprised to hear you say that. Seeing Americans talking about doing their tax returns makes me very glad that we have PAYE and don't have to bother. Ditto for adding tax to all the prices when you pay, that sounds like a right pain.
Now, having US levels of VAT does sound nice, but they'd just have to increase some other tax to compensate.
@Clyde15
I didn't know Autumn migration could start as early as August. At the place we went yesterday there were signs up saying they had not cut the reeds yet because birds had not finished breeding, but I guess summer is a lot shorter in the Arctic so some are already coming back here?
30% of our income goes in taxes, its hidden. I think if its highlighted by making it an add on that would make people more aware of it and demand that our money is spent well. Income tax, Council Tax, VAT, fuel taxes, vehicle fuel tax, insurance premium tax, Vehicle Excise Duty, NI, Air passenger duty.. lots! Work it out....
Aug 06th, 2017 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As if we're not already well aware of taxes, especially the big ones like income tax and VAT. Highlighting stealth taxes might be slightly more useful, but that is really a job for the press.
Aug 06th, 2017 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think taxes should be more progressive in this country, and it might be worth having a separate tax for the NHS. This would both guarantee funding and make people more aware of where their money is going.
The original idea about indirect taxation was that you had a choice about buying an item.
Aug 07th, 2017 - 09:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0You could avoid the tax by not purchasing a so-called luxury but not necessary item.
However, now they have hidden the taxation in items that you cannot avoid. Motor insurance is mandatory so they can bump up the tax rates at will and you have to pay.
Same with house insurance. You will not get a mortgage without taking out insurance
Landfill tax is payable on refuse disposal and is hidden in your council rates.
Stamp duties and other taxes we probably don't know exists.
Air passenger duty...to help against climate change....BALONEY! Just another excuse to tax you.
This can lead to double taxation up here.
If I wanted to fly to New Zealand from Scotland, I have to go to Heathrow as there are no direct flights from here. I get charged APD on the domestic flight and then APD on the international leg. They refuse to treat it as one journey although it is one ticket..
I believe the duty is cheaper if I flew to Schipol and onwards from there.
DT
There are two migrations in the bird world. Waders that leave the coast in Spring for the moorland and hills to breed and then migrate back to the coast to Winter.
Then there are long distant Arctic breeders who head back to our shores in early August onwards, such as Godwits, Ruff, Sanderlings and Turnstones. They have all turned up in the last week. Curlews, Lapwings and Golden Plovers are also coming down from higher ground with their young. Female Ospreys are heading South leaving their mates to bring up the kids. Cuckoos and Pied Flycatchers have gone and are heading for Africa.
From the birds you saw, I would venture that you were in Kent or Suffolk according to the current bird sighting reports.
Lots of red kites on my ride this morning and long tailed tits in the garden at the nuts. Looking forward to a visit to Minismere later in the month in our T25.
Aug 07th, 2017 - 11:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Clyde15
Aug 07th, 2017 - 05:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah, indirect taxes keep growing but it's all psychology. If a party says they will raise income tax it's unpopular and they don't get elected, but people still want better services so the government creates these hidden taxes. It would be more bureaucratic to have separate taxes for certain things but it would make it clearer to people that if they want a certain level of service they have to pay for it.
There are also birds that come to the UK to breed, right, and then go south for the winter? I guess cuckoos are one of these but they can go back early as they don't need to raise their young.
I did see some lapwings as well, but I'm on the other side of the country in Somerset right now. I may have seen bitterns before at Minsmere when I was younger (or maybe only heard them) but definitely not the other two species.
@The Voice
Whereabouts are you? I don't think I have ever seen a red kite.
DT The South Chilterns, Midsomer Murders territory. The kites were reintroduced and released on the Getty estate near here. There are always kites in the sky over the village. Where are you?
Aug 07th, 2017 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Heh, Midsomer Murders, where the sleepy English village has a murder rate 10 times higher than New York city.
Aug 08th, 2017 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0If the kites were reintroduced that explains it. I live in the East Midlands, it's not very exciting but there's some nice countryside for bike rides.
East Midlands eh? My brothers territory.. We get coachloads of foreign tourists on Midsomer Murders tours, quite amusing.
Aug 08th, 2017 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0If the Remain folks really were as educated and intelligent as they like to think, then why were they so abjectly unable to translate that into anything approaching a coherent and persuasive argument to vote accordingly? Maybe the uncomfortable truth is that they are not nearly as smart and educated as they like to think they are. ;-)))
Nursing trainees are 23% down now NHS busaries for their 'degrees' have been withdrawn! Absolutely barmy! Why charge nurses to train, its a hard job requiring knowledge skill and kindness? It doesnt require degrees.
Just look at who was running the campaign for Remain: the same people who brought us the pasty tax and the beer and bingo advert. Cameron is certainly smart and educated (at Eton and Oxford), but is the very definition of an out of touch elitist Tory. Didn't the Conservatives used to have more people from normal backgrounds, once upon a time?
Aug 08th, 2017 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Labour could have done something, but not while led by Corbyn; he's been a Eurosceptic for years. He dislikes the EU because it's far too neoliberal and forces members to adopt austerity policies instead of spending more money to help the poor.
The evidence is decidedly on the side of Remain voters who think they are better educated, as demographic analysis of the results shows educational level was the single strongest predictor of voting Remain. And although intelligence isn't perfectly correlated to education, I doubt there is anyone who thinks they are not related at all.
But this doesn't imply people voted for Brexit just because they were stupid. It's perfectly possible that being in the EU is a net advantage for those who are well educated and a net disadvantage for those who are not. It's another question whether it is better for the country as a whole, but there are plenty of people who don't care about that.
“Why charge nurses to train?”
Because all other students are charged for their degrees, and people like you do not want to pay higher taxes to cover bursaries.
And nurses need degrees because they are being asked to take on more responsibilities so that hospitals can employ fewer doctors and save money. Also people have more respect for qualifications if you call them degrees, making recruitment easier, but they need to be trained either way.
Rubbish, a degree is just a name. Back in the day there was just as much bookwork as there is now. I would rather have someone looking after me who has had experience on a ward from the start like student nurses once did than someone who has spent too much time in a classroom.
Aug 08th, 2017 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A 23% reduction in new nurses is an own goal of the worst sort caused almost entirely by the decision to charge fees. Calling a nurse a graduate obviously cuts no ice at all.
I have no objections to paying bursaries, but I would like to see a big reduction in Universities in general and more work training that struck a better balance between practical and academic learning paid for by the industries and institutions that will eventually employ the trainees or apprentices. Universities seem to be a financial black holes churning out too many burger flippers.
Which bit is rubbish? Sounds like you mostly agree with me. A 23% reduction certainly is an own goal and I'm no supporter of the kind of 'money saving' policies that led to it. I've also said before that I favour more vocational training instead of constantly increasing the number of graduates. And unlike some people I accept that if you want the government to fund certain things you must pay for them in taxes.
Aug 09th, 2017 - 12:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Graduates are still less likely to be employed as burger flippers, but creating more graduates doesn't automatically create more graduate jobs, while it does create an increasing amount of debt. I don't see what any of this has to do with Brexit though.
This sums up our Universities nicely...
Aug 09th, 2017 - 08:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0My fellow lecturers won't say it in public, but students today are moaning, illiterate snowflakes
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/09/fellow-lecturers-wont-say-public-students-today-moaning-illiterate/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_AmVYVhghCXpn
Time to cut academia back and regain our national practical skills and capabilities
Ugh, I refuse to read anyone that calls people snowflakes on principle. When you start charging huge fees, students become customers and demand a service. And can you really say they aren't right to? It's pretty hard to keep up academic standards in those circumstances. As far as I can see students today work a lot harder and drink a lot less than we ever did, and they are paying through the nose for this 'privilege' as well. The universities are benefiting from the huge increase in student numbers, the students themselves are not.
Aug 09th, 2017 - 11:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0It would be nice to know how much work vs partying went on in different decades but you don't know and I don't think anyone else is still reading this.
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