MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
International operation to rescue Argentine submarine lost in the South Atlantic
The Argentine navy has stepped up its search of the South Atlantic for a submarine with 44 crew on board that remains missing two days after its last communication on Wednesday. ARA San Juan was in the western south Atlantic some 432 kilometers from the Patagonian coast close to the San Jorge Gulf, when it sent its last signal on Wednesday midday, naval spokesman Enrique Balbi said on Friday. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesIn Chile and Peru, our submarines undergo rigid inspections by the German shipbuilder. Argentina on the other hand does not and it has been no secret that their safeguards are lax. Pray for the crew.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse +9Sincerely hope she, and all those onboard are recovered safe.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +5The US is also sending a P-8a Poseidon Aircraft to aid the search as well as the NASA P-3 Orion. I just hope it is not too late.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +5http://www.southcom.mil/News/PressReleases/Article/1376328/release-us-navy-p-8a-poseidon-to-support-argentina-search-for-submarine/
God's Speed in finding her and her crew.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +6Something stinks in the argie navy public releases. Missing for three days but “not an emergency”? Trying to convince the public that the submarine is on the surface but “just can't communicate”? If that is the case, the argie navy must be truly the most incompetent in the world. Every decent naval vessel has multiple rescue transponders (SARTs). Reminds us of 1982 and all that “we are winning” rah-rah. Let's face it: the facts point to this being a grim and terrible tragedy, but one made worse by trying to hide the probable realities.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Having served several years in the RN I pray these fellow mariners are found safe and well. God Speed!
Nov 18th, 2017 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +8Another factor that doesn't augur well here. During the Kirchner years the government decided to do a complicated mid-life upgrade for this submarine. But instead of sending it to a qualified foreign shipyard that had demonstrated expertise in the matter, the argies figured they could do it themselves, on the cheap. What could go wrong? Well, their selected shipyard was lacking in applicable experience and proper machinery and so they had to make things up as they went along. In fact the armada's own internal reports revealed that this shipyard did not have the required capabilities for such a complex upgrade. It's too early yet to speculate on the precise nature of the causes for the loss of the San Juan, but trying to do a major overhaul, one which includes major electrical work and completely separating the hull aft section from the boat, provides a risk opportunity of considerable magnitude.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +4I have a terrible feeling you may be right Marti. She is probably lost with all hands.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I doubt that the boat has been properly degaussed since manufacture. This along with the balance of speciality maintenance unavailable domestically and proper funding and leadership for training bide poorly for the prospects.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +3It is indeed a terrible feeling, as no one wishes any one ill fortune under these circumstances.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +5The government is now sending psychologists to help with affected family members at the submarine base.
If the submarine had actually surfaced with survivors, the transponders would likely have been squawking by now.
I sincerely hope that the crew are found safe and well. My thoughts are with their families.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +5Lets hope the San Juan and her crew are found quickly and safely.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +7Marti Llazo, lets hope the transponders are malfunctioning and that the sub is indeed on the surface. I don't think anyone in the world would like another Kursk incident.
The British and the USA have some of the best submarine rescue teams in the world. If the San Juan is at the bottom, lets hope that it is located quickly, and that one of these teams are despatched quickly (I'm sure they're on standby, or maybe already moving to a strategically closer area - just in case they are required). Speed is of the essence in a case like this. 3 days have already passed, which is worrying, and my best wishes go out to the submariners and their families.
Yes, three days is to seriously worry.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Observe nature of fouling and hull maintenance for this submarine
https://cdn.tn.com.ar/sites/default/files/styles/1366x765/public/2017/11/17/submarino-ara-san-juan-tecno.jpg
If the P-8A and the P-3 cannot find them then it will need a dedicated ASW Frigate with sophisticated sonar devices....just what Argentina does not have.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The problem is where to start the search...the sea is a big place.
From the location given, the sea has a depth of about 600 meters which is too deep for the sub. to survive if has gone to the bottom. It does not look good.
There seems to be an invented story going around which hasn't been confirmed by any argentine armada sources or anyone else who appears legitimate. Goes like this:
Nov 18th, 2017 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +3”The International Submarine Escape and Rescue Liaison Office (ISMERLO), organization dedicated to the search and rescue of sunk submarines around the world, claimed it detected ARA SAN JUAN about 300 kilometers east of Puerto Madryn at some 70 meters depth. No confirmation yet, official news say submarine search continues.“
Looks like truly fake news. A quick check with ISMERLO shows no such report.
Then there is the English-language version of the argentine naval spokesperson trying to re-define the meaning of ”lost.”
'....navy spokesman, Enrique Balbi, told local television that as there was no indication of problems from the submarine, it could not yet be termed lost.“The latest official and reliable information is that the submarine has not yet been found. It’s not that it’s lost: to be lost you’d have to look for it – and not find it.” '
OK, let's just say it's unfound.
Hopefully the submarine is drifting on the surface somewhere and all the crew will be rescued. Fingers crossed.
Nov 18th, 2017 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +2https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/submarines.html
Nov 18th, 2017 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Provides certification to the navies of Peru and Chile, but Argentina elects to do their own to save money. Pray for the crew.
@chicureo “....Argentina elects to do their own...”
Nov 18th, 2017 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I think the results are what they - unfortunately - ultimately do to their own.
-----
Media here report that Armada now turning their principal efforts from surface to underwater search. Probability of finding the vessel on the surface is now considered low. Still calling the efforts search and rescue, rather than recovery.
I sure hope this is true. They claim that several attempts to communicate via satellite were made earlier today.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 02:03 am - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.dw.com/en/argentine-navy-ramps-up-hunt-for-missing-german-built-submarine-with-44-crew/a-41439700
@Chicureo
Nov 19th, 2017 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse -5If only you have done some light search in the web you would noticed that the “mid-life” maintenance works were done with the guidance and inspections of the german engineers....It might be the time you start using your brain....
Every single navy in the world has problems with its subs every once in a while: Russia,Chile,UK even US, you name it, either human error , bad training or lack of maintenance being their cause.Those things happen .That's why navies around the world train emergency drills and procedures as much as their attack defense capability.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -5The ARA San Juan mid-life upgrade was supervised and certified by subs shipyard builders in Rio Santiago, to say otherwise, is false.
But these threads are full of resented and pelotudos who know nothing about weather conditions in the south atlantic or submarine naval operations...they just post.
So keep posting silly things.We will bring those sailors back safe and sound.
Vernet, I hope you are right.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“.....guidance and inspections of the german engineers...” is not the same as conducting the work under the constant supervision of qualified personnel at a facility having the necessary skills and equipment, which was not the case here. Since this renovation work took about seven years and it was done on the cheap, German supervision was only available for a few elements of the work. As a result, a great deal of what was done happened through trial and error, and some of the repairs had to be done over and over because there was simply not a satisfactory skill and knowledge base for complex submarine upgrades at the shipyard that was involved. Just the removal and replacement of the batteries was recognised as beyond the ken of the argentines.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +6In recent years here I've listened to the chest-puffers tell how Argentina is ready to build its own nuclear-powered submarines. That sort of thing is not just silly but dangerous.
@Vernet
Nov 19th, 2017 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -5You can say that. Even the Australian navy suffered a serious incident with one of their submarines. Kursk in the most remembered tragedy but the US Navy also suffered the lost of two nuclear submarines (one was the USS Scorpion).
The ARA San Juan might be, by its ton, maintenance and technical capability, the best conventional submarine operating in Latam.
@Marti Llazo
As an Engineer I can tell you that if the german engineers did their job as they should the submarine must have been it maintenance works with the very same quality standards as in Germany. Or at least in such a way that the safety was not affected at all. Otherwise they were not responsible engineers.
I note that the “rebuild” was carried out in 2010. What has been its maintenance program since then.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Comparing the San Juan with a nuclear sub. is like comparing a small family saloon with a F1 racing car.
Anyway, the general state of Argentine naval vessels does raise questions. One frigate rolls over in port, one breaks down and has to be towed into S.African port.
This would indicate problems in maintenance.
A sub. has to be kept at top efficiency and reliability as there is NO room for error unlike a surface vessel where you can man the life boats..
Pgerman:
Nov 19th, 2017 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +3It is one thing to hire a German engineer to help supervise refiting as Argentina and a completely another to submit your submarine to regular strict certification by the German shipbuilder like Peru and Chile does.
Clyde is right on the mark.
Fernet: “The ARA San Juan mid-life upgrade was supervised and certified by subs shipyard builders in Rio Santiago, to say otherwise, is false.”
Nov 19th, 2017 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Qué boludo sos.
The German manufacturer of the submarine notified the Argentine government in 2007 that their proposal to perform the mid-life upgrade in Argentina should not be done, since Argentina lacked the qualified/certified technical personnel and tools and other equipment to safely perform the work. The German company did offer to provide limited technical support, which was costly and would not result in the final certification of the result. But Argentina elected to go ahead without properly qualified personnel and facilities from 2007 to 2014 via the Complejo Industrial y Naval Argentino (which includes the combined Tandanor/Storni facility, and these facilities are sometimes referred to by other names). The Tandanor/Storni was in its day not even really “Industria Argentina” at all since it was almost entirely German. The plaques on all the major equipment there showed their German origins.
The Argentine shipworks where the submarine work was to be done had been previously closed and partially dismantled. The privatisation of the Tandanor works was a major national scandal. There was no cadre of workers with the qualifications needed for life-extension work on the San Juan. The Río Santiago shipyards were dedicated to merchant marine vessel work though at one time had been unconvincingly mentioned as a location for building Argentine submarines though this plan was unceremoniously abandoned.
Pgerman's asinine comment that the “ARA San Juan might be, by its ton, maintenance and technical capability, the best conventional submarine operating in Latam” is ridiculous as the German submarines in both Chile and Peru are in far better condition as well are easily outclassed by Chile's two Scorpène-class submarines.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +3A submarine that is lost is hardly to be considered the best at anything, except under argentine logic.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1As a vet of the US NAVY I do wish the best for the crew and boat to be found safe. Thoughts and prayers are with families of crew members.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Good day Ma'am, and fit like. My brother says you should come roon to his hoose for a cuppie 'o tae, and a claik, the next time you are in Ballater.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wouldn't it wrinkle the panties of the likes of pgerman, fernet, and trolley-boy if it were the HMS Protector coming from the Falklands that found their little lost boat? That must surely be their most terrifying nightmare.
Nov 19th, 2017 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +3@Marti Llazo
Nov 19th, 2017 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Don't be confused. I don't have anything against british people. I would like to get the submarine crew safe “at home” no matter who save them. As I happened with the HMS Endurance in Puerto Belgrano.
In additon, I woun't discuss with “chicureo” who clearly knows nothing about submarines. He is just another nacionalist.....
Pgerman
Nov 19th, 2017 - 11:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Yes, a Chilean nationalist who is a retired naval officer and has had nothing to do with the submarine service. I would however question your understanding of why many of us have such a low opinion of the Argentine navy.
Low opinion of the AR navy... because it is small-and weaker than most others I suppose? That is quite a pathetic attitude for a grown man, but then I guess it is good you are unable to hold the same attitude in music, sports, GDP size, because in those matters the pendulum is clearly swinging away from your side.
Nov 20th, 2017 - 12:13 am - Link - Report abuse -7@Chopper
Nov 20th, 2017 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0At least he is a man... :)
https://corporacionphantom.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/e0125-projec8.jpg
Having a low opinion of the Argentine naval maintenance is just a consensus of fact. Troll needs to move on.
Nov 20th, 2017 - 03:23 am - Link - Report abuse +4@Chicureo
Nov 20th, 2017 - 10:13 am - Link - Report abuse +2More like he needs to go out and get a pair of shoes that actually fit. He gets testy when his shoes get too tight. I'm not sure if Ucumars are actually recognized as citizens by Argentina. ;)
So finally the masquerades drop on these threads....Many anti argentine biased trolls posting.For example Marti Forrazo , a resented argentine exile ,he probably fled because he didn.t “fit” in argie society.Now puking anti argie slogans, ignoring in this case, naval operations in the south atlantic and underestimating weather/sea conditions.
Nov 20th, 2017 - 01:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Or Chicureo a former chilean naval officer (NCO in my humble opinion) , who has been indoctrinated all his life that Argentina , and its armed forces, are their worst enemies, conveniently forgets that multimillion budget well trained chilean navy has recently bumped subs and frigates between each other (Gral Carrera-Condell and tte.Uribe incidents).The Argentine Navy is under-funded and struggling to meet maintenance and training requirements yes , but neither the best navies of the world are exempt of submarine incidents.
Argentina has built many ships for its navy, for example the succesfull german design Blohm+Voss Meko 360 and 140 frigates and was well capable of doing the same with Thyssen-Nordseewerke (TR-1700) class submarines, all certified by its designers.
And yes Argentina is , only latam country , capable of building a nuclear reactor to fit in a sub.The TR-1700s to be built in Argentina were considered for an upgrade to a nuclear submarine using INVAP's CAREM reactor, which began development years ago.The nuclear submarine project is in the “fridge”,due to geopolitical strategy.
Bottom line is don't understimate Argentine Navy, first navy in the world to produce a succesfull naval air to surface missile attack and a surface to surface one, too.God permits that Argie navy with the invaluable help of our friends, will bring back those sailors.
fernet is proving clueless once again. And calling me argentine, of all things! Just how low can you go?
Nov 20th, 2017 - 02:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fernet, let's face it. Your leaky submarine is gone.
Vernet! RG nuclear reactor was intended for replacing the gas rings in the galley. Then there was the 'roll over' destroyer when someone forgot to grease the sea cocks, they couldnt shut them and it sank!. And finally the reenactment of the Malvinas invasion.....in canoes!
Nov 20th, 2017 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hilarious, just as entertaining as a Stan and Ollie movie ! Bahahahaha
Missed the missile, did it come from Brocks?
Vernet
Nov 20th, 2017 - 03:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1What a nasty piece of work you are. There are 44 of your countrymen probably lying at the bottom the sea awaiting rescue (hopefully) and all you can write is snidy comments and boast about Argentina's ability to build nuclear subs (or not - probably).
For pity's sake have some thought for these men and their desperate families and stop with the bile.
Perhaps Fernet can appreciate a more realistic assessment from the adults:
Nov 20th, 2017 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ After a significant period of decline, the Argentine armed forces have ceased to be a capable military force. In August 2015, the Argentine air force retired its Mirage fighters, with only a handful of them even flyable. The problems don’t stop there, their submarine crews despite benefiting from a recent upgrade, need at least 190 days of immersion practice and in 2014 only spent 19 hours submerged. A similar situation is faced by their four destroyers, they don’t have any weaponry. Argentine ground forces rarely have the resources for training and are vastly under equipped, their kit dates back to the 70’s and is in very short supply. In addition to this, the Argentine Air Force largely consists of a collection of obsolete aircraft mostly dating back to the 1970’s, which are frequently grounded due to poor serviceability. They’re now even getting rid of their only semi-capable fighter aircraft.
According to IHS Janes
“The Argentine Air Force is drastically cutting staff working hours and decommissioning its last fighter aircraft amid continuing budget issues. A recently published daily agenda indicates that the service’s working hours have been significantly reduced, from 0800 to 1300; rationing of food, energy consumption, and office supplies has been directed headquarters staff and property residents; and only the minimum personnel required to staff headquarters, directorates, and commands are working.”
It emerged as recently as 2006 that the Argentine Navy was spying on senior political figures, civic activists and human rights organizations – a scandal which ultimately resulted in Kirchner’s large scale purging of the Argentine military leadership in 2012.
You're very correct about the argentine military forces being severely cut back in operational funds. The Kirchners have done far more damage to the Argentine military threat to Chile than any counter offensive we here could have imagined.
Nov 20th, 2017 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I have especially a certain sympathy for the Argentine navy as I developed good friends there during my career. One area that the military does not cut expenses is their style of officer privilege. Far beyond anything you'll see in the remainder of Latin America. I've had the fortunate experience to have been hosted by Argentines at their spectacular military club in Buenos Aires. http://www.circulomilitar.org
In each opportunity, I was gently and briefly reminded how my nation stabbed them in the back. Yet in each case, it was clear there were no hard feelings.
Again, let's pray for the crew and hope this emergency is resolved soon.
“first navy in the world to produce a succesfull naval air to surface missile attack and a surface to surface one”
Nov 20th, 2017 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +4With a French aircraft and a French missile.
Royal Navy
First submarine to sink an enemy vessel since WW2 and cause a navy to run for port and stay there.
As to your ability to construct a SAFE nuclear submarine ......laughable !
“ ...Argentines at their spectacular military club in Buenos Aires....”
Nov 20th, 2017 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +2They do nice parades, too. And their white flags are simply impeccable.
Was this vessel equipped with an “Epirb”,and if not WHY not....?
Nov 20th, 2017 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The lack of a squawking SEPIRB at this point should be an indication of the low probability of successful rescue. Unfortunately.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 12:03 am - Link - Report abuse +1vernet
Nov 21st, 2017 - 05:18 am - Link - Report abuse -4“So finally the masquerades drop on these threads....Many anti argentine biased trolls posting.For example Marti Forrazo”
:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
@ Vernet Putting aside the fate of the San Juan and her crew. Argentina has no capability to build SSNs, they do not have the capability to do major refits of DE Submarines, even the German builder advised against an stated that Argentina did not have the skill set required in the dockyards. Building submarines is nothing like building surface ships. As for converting the TR1700s into SSNs. When that was first proposed by the Kirchner regime I nearly fell off my chair with laughter. Looking at the project with some seriousness it would be fraught with problems and cheaper to start with a blank cheque. You simply cannot retro fit a nuclear reactor. The smallest SSN was the Nerwin at 400 tonnes but operationally the smallest SSNs were all over 3000 tones. Current SSNs are around 7000 tonnes and SSBNs around 18000 tonnes. Converting a 2000 tonne TR1700 was and still is not viable.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 07:33 am - Link - Report abuse +3Vernet
Nov 21st, 2017 - 09:00 am - Link - Report abuse +4I have to wonder what kind of unfeeling monster you must be! I have read all of your posts on this thread and not ONE of them shows any kind of sympathy for these sailors and their families, nor any hope that they will be found safe and well.
Your complete lack of empathy borders on the psychotic.
All you care about is defending the 'honour' of Argentina. Why? Why do you believe that Argentine 'honour' requires defending?
Because some people have correctly pointed out that Argentina hasn't got a very good track record of maintaining it's military assets? This is true. Argentina's military have been starved of funds for decades...by your government. If you don't like that, then as a citizen, you should be protesting the fact and contacting your elected representative to get it changed.
There is no 'honour' is lying, which is basically what you are doing.
Also I find 'your' posts amusing. Argentina can do this...Argentina can do that...yet Argentina doesn't do any of those things.
You brag that Argentina has built 'many' ships...using a German design!!!! That's basically saying Argentina is an artist because they can 'paint by numbers'.
Any country in the world, if they chose, could build ships using an already tried and tested design. Most countries don't do that because it's actually cheaper to just by a ship 'off the rack'. The whole 'build it ourselves' is more expensive and fraught with more danger as your ship builders may not be experts in building military vessels, and it's only done so fools like you can have 'pride' that your country has built its own vessels.
Now to design, test and build your own vessel well that is an achievement. Of course it then costs proportionally more as not all designs will work out, or may have to be amended at huge cost.
So stop bragging about stuff that really isn't something that normal people would brag about, especially when the lives of 44 of your countrymen, who are far braver than you, hang in the balance.
It's pretty obvious he's a partisan of La Asesina, who set this whole situation up with her dismantling of the armed forces. The Narcokleptocrats and their mob have blood on their hands, but they don't care. They hate their own military. Wait for them to blame Macri...
Nov 21st, 2017 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse +3Amazed how many idiots post here knowing “zero” about past and present sea conditions in the South Atlantic . Marti Forrazo, who gives up himself by calling me fernet. Clyde15, which his gorilla avatar says it all.. LEPrecon who is not capable of grasping basic english...or imoyaro who psycho-sees kirchnerites every where... clearly all cynical hypocrats that want the failure of the rescue operation while stating political politness. Anyways thank god most of people on this thread are well intended.Weather conditions improving today .With our deployed resources and with the help of our international south atlantic friends we will bring safe those sailors back home,which is the only thing I care about. And yes , Argentina is capable of building subs and nuclear reactors whether you like it or not.Rebut me, pilgarlics.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Fernetito, some of us were familiar with both the South Atlantic and South Pacific long before you were adopted.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 01:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Your little boat is lost. And you won't be building any submarines. Especially after all of this. Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but that's just the way it is. Now, I believe that your PlayStation is waiting.
vernet
Nov 21st, 2017 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Your post makes no sense...it just appears to be you ranting.
I truly hope that these sailors are found alive and well, and not one person said that finding the sub should be easy, what they are saying is that Argentina hasn't got a good track record on maintenance of it's military assets...which is a truthful thing to say.
Also your assertion that Argentina can build it's own subs and ships is erroneous. You have...in the past (and this is the point...THE PAST) used OTHER people's designs to build vessels...and these have NEVER been quite as good as the original.
Since you know very little about ship building, especially of military vessels, let me educate you.
Building a war ship is not like building a commercial vessel. Just like building a tank is not like building a car.
War ships require lots of 'extras' that no one would dream of putting on a commercial vessel. The armour and weaponry makes the entire structure very unstable (from a floating on the sea point of view). Many ships can be too heavy up top...so the design of the hull has to be modified to take this into account.
Now you 'brag' (though what you've got to brag about is anyone's guess) that Argentina can basically follow the 'manual' and build it's own vessels. When was the last military vessel built by Argentina? Nearly 40 years ago! The majority of workmen who built that vessel are either retired or dead.
You don't have the money, the skill set or the ability to produce anything larger than a patrol boat.
Let's compare Argentina to another country that famously built it's own vessels copied from others designs, China.
China has more skilled workers, more money and more resources than Argentina, and they are still having trouble with their aircraft carrier (even though it was a tried and tested Russian design), and several of their destroyers.
But keeping lying to yourself...after all lies are all you have.
Very interesting he would say I wish the deaths of those sailors. Nothing could be further from the truth. But I note he does not actually deny what I said about the treatment of the military under the Kirchners. Because of it, Argentina currently has porous borders, with drugs flowing in from Bolivia and Paraguay, with no ability to interdict with either air or ground forces, definitely an aim of La Asesina, who had suppliers of the precursors for Meth calling the Casa Rosada. (Remember that?) Allow me to point out that this is NOT good, and Macri is trying to turn things around. If, and I hope it is not so, the sub is lost with all hands, you can bet the K thugs will blame Macri. Not sure why he would have a problem with that statement, unless, of course...
Nov 21st, 2017 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Amazed how many idiots post here knowing “zero”. You being the prime example.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Yes my gorilla avatar says it all....it is pointing at YOU !
As to “pilgarlic”...not me. I have a full head of grey hair as does my charming gorilla avatar.
Really, aping Nostrils abuse of the English language.....grow up !
I think of YOU as an immature excitable chimpanzee.
In no way do I wish the deaths of this crew of submariners. I have posted what other expert
sources are saying. The chances of finding the vessel with the crew alive are extremely slim. I would be delighted if that was the case BUT realism overides this.
You may have noticed that the Royal Navy have despatched a specialist rescue team.
“The SPAG is made up of underwater medics, engineers and specialist escape technicians. Equipment pods dropped with them carry inflatable boats, food, water and other supplies. They can function as a first-response for more than 24 hours whilst other ships make their way to the scene.. You still regard us as ”the enemy” ?
For your geographical information, I live on the Clyde coast at 55°N about 40 miles from the open Atlantic. This roughly equivalent to Tierra del Fuego latitudes
This is the weather near me today and is fairly typical until March.
Northeasterly severe gale force 9 continuing, increasing storm force 10 later
Wind
Northeasterly 5 to 7, increasing gale 8 or severe gale 9, occasionally storm 10 in north.
Sea state
Moderate or rough, becoming very rough or high.
Weather
Showers.
Visibility
Good occasionally poor.
I am well aware of the dangers and the power of the sea. I have just heard one of our Coastguard helicopters heading out to sea as some vessel is probably in trouble.
As to your assertions about Argentina's scientific and technical expertise, we have heard it all before. Your nuclear expertise, you could build a nuclear submarine, first rate aircraft etc, etc .
End of my reasoned post.
An Argentinian nuclear reactor? An Argentine sub! Stick to Choripans and beefsteak barbeques you can make a decent job of them. Keep death off the high seas....
Nov 21st, 2017 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Nothing political from me. X us navy here and praying for the safe recovery of this boat and her crew. Prayers with everyone.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The ARA San Juan is apparently the first post-WWII German submarine to experience a catastrophic failure.
Nov 21st, 2017 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +3That such a failure would take place after Argentina, during its most corrupt and anti-military period in history, tried to cut the boat in half and then put it back together, surprises exactly no one.
“The submarine had recently [in 2014] completed an extensive overhaul, beginning in 2007, that had entailed extensive repairs, including cutting the boat in half to replace the propulsion system. All this work was done by a workforce that had never worked on a submarine, or had not done such work in over two decades. President Fernandez de Kirchner celebrated the completion of the repairs in 2011, but in reality three more years were needed before the work was done. It might be speculated that the limited competence of the workforce, or political pressure from the President, could have introduced flaws in the boat that created problems in 2017.”
Why did the upgrade take so many years to finish? “[Kirchner's defence minister Rossi] blamed the delay on the lack of funds and qualified labor.”
Pageboy:
Nov 21st, 2017 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +3To quote Marti
“That such a failure would take place after Argentina, during its most CORRUPT and anti-military period in history, tried to cut the boat in half and then put it back together, SURPRISES exactly no one.”
Apparently except for you...
Hey Marti
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 12:04 am - Link - Report abuse -5If you haven't anything nice to say...why don't you just STFU...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/21/15/4691DB0300000578-5104289-Heartbreaking_A_drawing_made_by_a_young_girl_to_her_father_who_i-m-36_1511278324246.jpg
...go somewhere else to spread your bile and hate...
Hey voicey, under the circumstances, what was said was exceedingly nice, though your failure to recognise nice may be not unlike your failure to recognise your the corruption and incompetence
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse +6President Fernandez de Kirchner and her band of thieves need to receive the “ bile and hate” of the public. The picture is heartbreaking.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse +7Should be required reading here: Maybe we can get someone to read it to voicey:
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 01:21 am - Link - Report abuse +5“Tripulantes del submarino ARA San Juan: mártires de un sistema perverso”
https://www.infobae.com/opinion/2017/11/20/tripulantes-del-submarino-ara-san-juan-martires-de-un-sistema-perverso/
Bile and hate? Pot kettle black... ! Usually directed at Falkland Islanders by Voice. In the present situation the bile and hate seems to be coming from a minority of Argie numbnuts directed at the British who are trying their best to assist. You couldnt make it up.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 10:33 am - Link - Report abuse +1From a German perspective.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse +1http://navaltoday.com/2017/11/21/what-happens-to-a-german-submarine-in-distress/?uid=5812
Demonstrator the slavish follower
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Terry just failed the Turing test.”
Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire and mythology major
“If you haven't anything nice to say...why don't you just STFU…”
“He is just stringing words together that don't mean anything..”
Thats right you and your slavish follower go in for some joint back-slapping. When you’re unable to refute the contention of Yong Zhou. That inclusion is the norm in international law unless the following applies: “to contain an exclusion clause if it provides expressly …” Hope it makes you feel better, but it doesn’t change the legal consequences one iota. Aren’t you glad you opened that pandora’s box when you asked the question? What’s that adage again, a good advocate doesn’t ask a question to which he doesn’t know the answer. Well, you’ve certainly proved the wisdom of that saying haven’t you.
Voice …“Then why did it specifically not mention any islands at all… this means and how it applies to the Nootka Convention...”
TH “Why would they, when if there’s an exclusion, it has to be professed. As it is in peace treaties.” So thanks for confirming there was no exclusion clause related to the Islands in Nootka. Unlike me, your unable to provide any bona fide legal support for your latest desperate guess. ”... in case of doubt a limitation of sovereignty must be construed restrictively.”P.345 Extrinsic Evidence in International Law Hans Aufricht
http://en.mercopress.com/2017/11/07/argentina-surfaces-three-spanish-malvinas-documents-from-1767/comments#comment477424
Aw gosh, another dash of the families' hopes, false alarm again. Not hard to imagine what they and their loved ones are going through. Hope they get recovered.
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 03:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Terry...
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse -5you're
Looks like the navy has finally released the full crew list
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.perfil.com/politica/la-lista-completa-de-los-44-tripulantes-del-submarino.phtml
Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire and mythology major
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -2You’re so gullible it’s so easy to get you to bite. Further evidence that other than your unimportant unsupported personal opinion you have nothing to refute my supported assertion.
”It used to be we thought that people who went around correcting other people's grammar were just plain annoying. Now there's evidence they are actually ill, suffering from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.“ illinois.edu/blog/view/25/76120
“Grammar Pedantry Syndrome” is a form of OCD in which sufferers need to correct every grammatical error.” twitter.com/uberfacts/status/218151002707206145
“A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism, accuracy, ...” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedant
@ML
Nov 22nd, 2017 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wonder why they didn't release the list before. Surely it couldn't take a whole week to inform all their families?
@TH
”“A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism, accuracy, ...”
What, like someone who feels the bizarre compulsion to provide a definition of every common term and expression they use?
But really, this is hardly the time, and I don't know why you addressed me when I hadn't even posted in this thread.
Demonstrator the slavish follower
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse +1“I don't know why you addressed me”
Your comment about me is shown as is where it was. You stick to what you do best, sycophant.
You’ll be back on track and in full suck mode any second.
Did you have some point in bringing it up here?
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 12:50 am - Link - Report abuse -3Hey Terry...
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse -4Education is important...
Though in your case, copying and pasting other people's opinions is importanter....
Meanwhile, the missing boat.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 02:06 am - Link - Report abuse +3Today's phrase is “hydro-acoustic anomaly” which only yesterday might have been called just a noise in the water.
Several media here are reporting that the US provided Argentina with information on the detection of one of those hydro-acoustic anomalies that took place about three hours after the last contact with the missing boat, and originating not far from the last reported position (30 NM). The argie navy spokesperson apparently refused to publicly speculate on whether the noise might have been due to an explosion. No word either on why it might have taken so long to fully analyse and report on the noise that occurred a week ago.
Demonstrator the slavish follower
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 09:04 am - Link - Report abuse +1“Did you have some point in bringing it up here?”
Simply answering your little sucking snide remark
Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire and mythology major
“other people's opinions is important”
Particularly when they confirm my opinion is correct and yours is simply an unsupported invention.
@ML
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 11:01 am - Link - Report abuse -1That sounds ominous, but if the sub was on the surface they would surely have found it by now. It doesn't look good. :(
@TH
So the guy who continually calls me a 'slavish follower', and repeatedly insults me simply for disagreeing, is upset that I said something mean to him? Pathetic and hypocritical, go whine somewhere else.
Local media now seeming to concentrate on the “noise” that the US reported occurring about 30 NM north of the last reported position of the lost submarine. Navy spokesperson still refusing to “confirm or deny” that the noise might be from an explosion on the boat. Some media and family members a bit visibly irked with that. And no other plausible explanation for the noise from that area. Weather and ocean conditions turning bad again but several ships reported converging on the location of the reported noise.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +3German media ( Deutsche Welle) : “The German-built diesel-electric submarine was commissioned in 1985, but was refit in 2014 — leading to some concerns that a mistake was made during the renovation.”
Subtle.
Demonstrator the slavish follower
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 12:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“calls me a 'slavish follower’” Based on your behaviour is absolutely accurate.
“is upset that I said something mean ..” On the contrary I am more than happy to use your own devices against you and to reveal your true character. ”simply for disagreeing” No for supporting those whom it is proven they’re lying. One whom is an admitted fascist. Who you espoused I couldn’t claim he was a liar. Even though he refused to comply with a compellable onus. Therefore legally, an adverse inference could drawn. You quibbled with that philosophically “Thoughts are either true or false in an absolute sense, never both or neither.” As such an argument further proved he was a liar.
You throw your support to an enemy of your country, and not because what he claims is true, on contrary if it was I’d be first to agree with him. Which is why I have called you Lord Haw Haw.
@TH
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 01:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -4You've derailed this thread enough. Take it elsewhere if you must and I will explain in small words how truly wrong you are.
@ML
What I haven't seen in any article is how deep the sea is in that area. It's fairly crucial information, although if they are not found soon it will be a moot point.
I wonder if they can tell hydro acoustic anomalies caused explosions from those caused by implosions?
@tree - take this for what it's worth. It has been discussed here for several days.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 04:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.univision.com/noticias/rescate/el-submarino-ara-san-juan-desaparecio-al-borde-de-un-abismo-de-6-200-metros-de-profundidad
Hydrogen gas build up from overcharging batteries. A spark and then boom... There were problems concerning the batteries.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0worrying times, best of luck to those unfortunately involved, and hold out for a happy ending
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Thanks, Marti. I guess that explains why they can't even estimate a depth if it was following the edge of the continental shelf.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's interesting that the map shows it following the border of Argentina's actual EEZ and not their claimed one. But I suppose if they were interested in illegal fishing then that makes sense.
Marti Llazo
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -6Interesting that you posted an American news article that calls the islands with the proper name.
Watching Argentine news, people are calling the government some terrible names...national mood is getting ugly.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeah Marcos, that's really the important issue here. Who cares about the 44 people who were most probably killed by government cost-cutting?
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0M.A.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +2An American news article in SPANISH ????? Including maps in SPANISH ????
Maybe, just maybe it was translated and published in ARGENTINA , and as we know, THEY always get their facts wrong hence Malvinas..
I see that is the best that you can contribute to the discussion. I would have expected a complaint that the RAF had landed in Argentina with rescue equipment and a couple of UK vessels were helping in the search. Totally unwelcome incursions into Holy Argentine domains from Colonial Pirates..
D.T.
Look up GOOGLE EARTH. Click on TOOLS. Click RULER and set MILES or KMS.
I set it at 432 Kms. Start at the N.Cape of Golfo San Jorge and run a line due east at this length and read off the depth at the end of the line. It is approx. -238 metres.
The depth is read from the bottom right part of the screen.
Moving the line eastward the depth increases quite steeply.
Of course this is a bit rough and ready but it shows how even a few tens of kilometers can make a large difference to the ocean depth.
Clyde15
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Let me google it for you
“Univision is an American Spanish language broadcast television network that is owned by Univision Communications.
Univision is headquartered in Midtown Manhattan, New York City”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univision
No complaints about the help Clyde, grateful instead.
Marcos:
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +3In Chile, we refer to the Falklands as Las Malvinas because we live nextdoor to an obnoxious neighbor that insists their fanciful land of unicorns actually exists. In reality though, it's just a way to shut them up!
OK
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +3An American broadcaster aimed at Spanish speakers ...hence Malvinas. What does that prove...that the American people support ARGENTINA'S claim to the Falklands ?
Hello Marcos, have you been released from Cartonero duty tonight?
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Clyde15
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse -6I don't know you need to ask them, I was just helping you to search the answer to your question:
“An American news article in SPANISH ????? Including maps in SPANISH ????”
If it's any consolation, marquitos, the news stories in French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Perruno, and Gatuno all seem to concur that Argentina has lost its submarine.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +3http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2084947-los-medios-del-mundo-siguen-de-cerca-el-caso-del-submarino-ara-san-juan-y-hablan-de-la-explosion
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