MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Missing submarine search returns to the point where the last contacts were made
Ships and planes hunting for the missing Argentine submarine with 44 crew members will return to a previous search area after officials said Wednesday that a noise made a week ago in the South Atlantic could provide a clue to the vessel’s location. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rules@Elaine
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -1https://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/11/22/hablo-la-jueza-que-investiga-la-desaparicion-del-submarino-hay-informacion-sensible-bajo-secreto-de-estado/
Argie navy has confirmed that there was an explosion aboard the submarine.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“ Submarino ARA San Juan: la Armada confirma que hubo una explosión”
“ La Armada confirma que hubo una explosión y se busca hundido al submarino”
' La Armada Argentina confirmó hoy en rueda de prensa que se registró un evento “consistente con una explosión” en la zona donde se busca desde hace 8 días al submarino ARA San Juan, que desapareció en el golfo San Jorge mientras se dirigía desde Ushuaia a su apostadero en la base naval de Mar del Plata. '
They “heard” an explosion, underwater, in the huge South Atlantic?
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It kind of begs the question, with what, did they detect this explosion.
Also, if an explosion was “heard”, it seems like a dead ringer to me.
Yet, it wasn't important enough to bring up until a week after the submarine went missing?
The Argentines are never going to get a straight answer about this accident from their government.
Pageboy:
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Sadly there is no SECRET that the Argentine government is responsible for this tragedy. To quote Marti again from an earlier post: “That such a failure would take place after Argentina, during its most CORRUPT and anti-military period in history, tried to cut the boat in half and then put it back together, SURPRISES exactly no one.” Pray for survivors.
@bushpilot: It wasn't the argies that detected last week's explosion aboard the submarine. They have no such capability. It was a US-based intel team. And it looks as though there was some time spent in sanitising the feeds and doing the analysis, which was then passed to the argies. Argentina's many years of constrained budgets (trying to strangle the navy) paid off by taking much of its hardware offline.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +3From Janes:
”The search procedures triggered by the disappearance of the Argentine TR 1700-class submarine ARA San Juan , which went missing on 15 November, have revealed that several air and maritime platforms in Argentina’s inventory are currently out of service, with hollowed-out budgets leading to a lack of spares and maintenance and repair work becoming long overdue. According to local military sources in Buenos Aires, the emergency found the Argentine Navy with all of its four P-3B maritime patrol aircraft (MPAs) unavailable after the last one serviceable was grounded in July after a check found cracks in its wings. As a result, the only Argentine aircraft fitted with a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) and thus able to detect submarines underwater is currently a single S-2T Turbo Tracker, which was returned to service in 2016 after spending several years grounded.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5111129/Has-missing-submarine-located-Navy-spots-object.html
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 06:02 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Argentines are now figuring out that they've been lied to...“you sons of b*****s”
It is now becoming clear that the submariners are beyond rescue unless a miracle occurs. The Argentine Navy has handled this tragedy very badly - amateurish statements at random times just showing total confusion amid suggestions that the vessel was undertaking some nefarious secret mission.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Why does Argentina need submarines anyway?
I hope these brave submariners are properly honoured and their families treated with respect!
Some of the relatives are stating that they have been informed that the crew are all dead. I would assume they would be told first - quite rightly so - but there has been so much misinformation I think we should wait for official confirmation. It would appear there was an explosion detected a week ago 30 miles north of the last reported position. Yes, they were reporting their position at scheduled intervals on the sea trial.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +3I don't think the Argentines had the details of the explosion until it was handed to them by the U.S. Navy. Apparently in the last reported communication - including their position - a malfunction was reported.
@gordito “Why does Argentina need submarines anyway?”
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Need you ask? Remember: this is Argentina.
The submarines are for their offensive capabilities. They are “attack” submarines. Almost no real utility for fisheries protection and all that nonsense that the argies tried to present. The San Juan was also configured for clandestine insertion of up to 36 special operations troops along the lines of what was done in the Falklands in 1982. It's quite possible that the admitted “44” crew members number for this trip didn't include everybody aboard and that when bodies are recovered, the numbers might be different.
We'll see. It's early yet.
But apparently the maps that Argentina is showing the public about the course taken are deliberately deceptive, because the Royal Navy detected the San Juan much closer to the Falklands than the Argentines are admitting. And it's looking more and more like both US and RN sensors picked up the explosion aboard the submarine and the information was passed to Argentina some days before public admission.
It's early yet, but it's going to get embarrassing after the sympathy wears off.
I think we can all now be sure that the submarine has “gone”. It shouldn't be forgotten that this boat was, at one time, cut in half. Does anybody know of any occasion when a British or American submarine, the admitted world leaders, has been cut in half when there was an intention to return it to service? I can't think of one. However, given that it was done, the site of the re-joining would be a permanent weak point unless every millimetre of welding was perfect and, for safety, reinforced. But, even without the cut, we should assume the working life of a submarine hull to be 30 years. This boat would have been, at best, “on the edge”. Its apparent location is another possible clue. If it slipped over the continental shelf, it would stand no chance. Ocean depths are 5,000 metres or thereabouts. Well beyond crush depth. If the crew were suffering from anoxia or hypoxia, it would only take one mistake. It's unlikely that a deep submergence rescue vessel could reach such a depth. Recovery of wreckage is therefore unlikely.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +4One must also take into account the possibilities of explosion/implosion if seawater reaches the batteries. If the boat was armed, which is most likely, any “problems” with various parts of the electrical systems could easily touch off the weapons.
Like gordo1, I question argieland's “need” for submarines in times of acute economic difficulties. And we can remember that the “major” maintenance work on this boat covered a time when the Type 42 destroyer Santisima Trinidad sank at its mooring due to poor maintenance.
It is understood that argieland has only one of these boats, the Santa Cruz, left. They would be well-advised to take it out of service. Argieland also has one, smaller, Type 209 submarine. It would be well-advised to take that out of service as well for examination by competent, experienced engineers.
I'm sorry for my lack of comments but I've been overworked today. I must make my living.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -5I was thinking that months ago, a couple of times, “Marti Llazo” wrote, trying to cheat and confused all of us, that he was argentinian.
It is qute evident, for his childishly expressions (trying to be offensive), for his insecurity demonstrated in his concepts, for his contempt for everything that comes from Argentina that must be an (chilean?) nacionalist adolescent who, just because he can check in the web some data, wants to convince us that he is a “specialist” and “knowledgeable” of defense issues.
Poor kid. “Marti Llazo” it might be the time that you grow up and deal with more important things than writting posts in the web. Have you gone to school today?
Marti Llazo. Really. How old are you? Where do you live? Poor kid....
@ Conquerer
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +4I read somewhere that the submarine reported a problem with the batteries in their last communication.
@pgerman
Why not forget yourself for a moment and concentrate on the news story. It would appear the crew are dead and we have been fed a load of misinformation over the past few days by the Argentine navy spokesperson. Leave your damaged ego to one side out of respect.
Always happy to help you understand what goes on here in Argentina, pageboy.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +4PAGEBOY expert “Engineer”
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Well, if Marti is Chilean, he's in very welcome company.
If you were to scrutinize every post on this thread, only yours has contributed practically nothing of interest.
Personally, you sound like a childish immature adolescent that tried to convince readers the reason for the lack of information being released by the armada was due to the submarine engaged in a “hidden” mission.
During the next few months, we're probably going to discover many “hidden” scandals referencing the modifications and maintenance of the ill fated ARA San Juan. Many of countrymen are already aware of the terrible price of corruption:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jrOMjCkKMU0
Marti Llazo, retired military, is neither argentine not chileno, but thank you very much. Though at least one of Llazo's former students is what he jokingly refers to as “capitán de corbata” (really capitán de corbeta, equivalent to a navy lieutenant commander) who.... hmmmmmm ....seems to know quite a bit about the “mojones” ... local rude slang term for submarines.
Nov 23rd, 2017 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +3The argentines continue to demonstrate how delicately they deal with notification of next of kin:
“El jefe de mi hijo me confirmó que están todos muertos”, dijo el padre de uno de los tenientes
(My son's boss confirmed that they're all dead, said the father of one of the lieutenants)
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2084948-submarino-ara-san-juan-el-jefe-de-mi-hijo-me-confirmo-que-estan-todos-muertos-dijo-el-padre-de-uno-de-los-tenientes
Léalo y llore:
El jefe de mi hijo me confirmó que están todos muertos porque la explosión fue entre los 200 y mil metros de profundidad hace una semana, ocho días“.
”Es básico, no hay mucha vuelta para darle“, agregó. Luego insistió en que el submarino explotó y dijo: ”No hay ser humano que sobreviva a eso“. Hoy, pasadas las 11 de la mañana, el vocero de la Armada, Enrique Balbi, aseguró que el Gobierno recibió información a través del embajador argentino en Austria , Rafael Grossi, de que ”hubo un evento anómalo, singular, corto, violento y no nuclear, consistente con una explosión” en la zona del último contacto del navío....
Conqueror
Nov 24th, 2017 - 01:44 am - Link - Report abuse -5Argentina needs submarines the very same reasons the UK, Chile or Peru need submarines. Basically, to protectec itself from an agreesive World. Quite simple.
Marti Llazo..Another “retired military”?...such as “Chicureo” that, no mather having belonged to a navy all of his life, still doesn't know the “hidden” nature of submarine operations.....(anyway..I have never gave a dam penny for the brain of a militar..neither argentine nor chilean ones..“Chicureo” sitll defends Pinochet....)
Marti Llazo...again...How old are you? kid...where are you from? Why did you lie trying to confused us? Hove you gone to schooll today?
Misinformation is in the Argentine DNA, why?
Nov 24th, 2017 - 01:47 am - Link - Report abuse +4Finally, the truth is surfacing; this was the cunning work of those dastardly Brits:
Nov 24th, 2017 - 02:10 am - Link - Report abuse +3http://www.ellitoral.com.ar/488991/Promueven-investigacion-internacional-sobre-el-accidente-del-Submarino-de-Argentina
(A little distasteful levity in these tragic times).
@DerkeBlake
Nov 24th, 2017 - 03:15 am - Link - Report abuse -5As in any armed force in the world, an accident involving the loss of material and personnel implies an internal judicial process. According to Argentine law the final determination of the Military Justice is followed by the review of the case by Civil Justice.
A long process, that will take several years, will start and all of us expec that the real reasons for the accident are clarified. To honor the life of those who died, for justice and for the definition of the final destination of the ARA Santa Cruz (twin sister ship of the ARA San Juan).
In the meanwhile there are only people talking without any, or little, knowledge of submarines. Even sports journalists thought they were expert experts in naval technology in the Argentine mass media today.
Pageboy
Nov 24th, 2017 - 04:07 am - Link - Report abuse +4I'm starting to feel embarrassed for your continuing nonsense of posting pathetic, nearly illegible, diatribes about this sad tragedy. Your impression is of being a hostile adolescent fool that is completely ignorant of what has actually occurred. Argentina's ”hidden” nature of submarine operations is a scandalous example of wholesale government corruption.
pgerman
Nov 24th, 2017 - 06:21 am - Link - Report abuse +4Your contributions add nothing to the subject! The disappearance of the submarine is a national tragedy for Argentina and the comments of an ignoramus like you ignore completely the agony those brave sailors must have suffered or, indeed, the loss their families are suffering.
pgerman
Nov 24th, 2017 - 06:39 am - Link - Report abuse +5That is as pathetic a response as I could ever imagine; justifying the unjustifiable; grasping at straws, and whatever other silly term applies.
Fine, demand an inquiry, and any other normal naval procedure and protocol; but if you are being sincere in your objective, then don’t insinuate motives and possibilities in such a request (particularly such ridiculous ones), to further some warped bias and agenda.
You lose all credibility defending such a bizarre statement by such a despicable person. Just admit that Alejandro Karlen is a left-over parasitic dinosaur from CFK, and move on; just cut your loses and maybe you’ll retain a bit of dignity.
Two sentences on the sinking; and then six trying to involve the Brits. Seriously? You really don’t know when to pick your battles, do you?
Why am I not surprised at us Brits. being blamed. It seems to be wired into Argentine DNA.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 10:16 am - Link - Report abuse +4Always the victim of someone else's actions.
Surely the public and govt. should be doing all in their power to support the bereaved families of this “preventable” tragedy instead of being fed conspiracy theories.
How can we in the UK quash this ridiculous allegation ? There will be Argentinians willing to believe it without a scintilla of evidence..
In the most recent article, it says......
“Spokesman Enrique Balbi refused to speculate on what the noise could have been, but said ships were on their way to the site 725km off Argentina's coast.”
This is twice the distance reported previously.
The sea bed is between 500 to 5000 meters here. Even at best, there would have been no chance of a rescue.
If my rudimentary chemistry is correct, a hydrogen burn or explosion would combine with any oxygen to produce water, thereby removing all the oxygen from the air in the sub.
If this IS the case then the crew would have been rendered unconscious very quickly and
been unaware of their fate.
Whatever the case, a crew of brave men and women have gone. I for one, could not go submerged in any submarine. The thought of being in an enclosed space with no way out brings on the cold sweats !
Gordo you are correct that it would be a very big bang but it wouldnt necessarily remove all oxygen. No doubt it would damage the subs electrical systems, possibly cause a fire and be attended by large amounts of hydrogen sulphide and spilled acid. Anyway its all speculation. I hope they find and recover the sub, most of all to give closure to the crews families and eliminate slurs on us Brits.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 10:58 am - Link - Report abuse +4It's over, page-boy
Nov 24th, 2017 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Time to collect your toy boats from the bath tub.
Time to clean your room and put away your chiches.
Time to sit quietly and let the adults explain to you what happened, and why.
[argie navy spokesman Enrique Balbi] “ said there was no sign that the supposed explosion was the result of an attack.”
The Voice
Nov 24th, 2017 - 02:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where have I mentioned “a big bang”?
Gordo, you mentioned an explosion. Have you ever witnessed a Hydrogen explosion, I have, its a very sharp violent bang. In an enclosed space it would be devastating. Anyway, we are all speculating. Sound travels well through water, the Americans and other Western nations have hydrophones all over the place to detect subs. They probably heard it from those. But whether it came from the sub, who knows?
Nov 24th, 2017 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It seems to have been kept out of the news also
Nov 24th, 2017 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Voice
Nov 24th, 2017 - 04:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have revised all my contributions to this thread and I fail to see where I mentioned “an explosion” or “a big bang”!
Sorry Gordo, mixed you up with Clyde - senior moment! ;-)
Nov 24th, 2017 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Enjoyed a visit to the Mary Rose a few weeks ago, excellent. Now our boat and MIL have departed miss our regular visits to Pompey. These days we just pass through on visits to Brittany.
@gordo1
Nov 24th, 2017 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's because you didn't, TV appears to have been replying to Clyde15's post.
@TV
A pure hydrogen explosion would only produce water, right? So where would the hydrogen sulphide and acid come from? The batteries? What type did it use?
Hydrogen sulphide from lead/sulphuric acid batteries. Latest subs have more advanced batteries but I doubt that will have been the case in this old sub. Just idle speculation.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hows the skool DT?
Tree, there are several failure modes related to the lead-acid batteries of the type used in these diesel-electric submarines. We can't assume that the only offgassing is that of hydrogen. The cause of the explosion is still speculative. There had been reports of the boat being leaky, allowing sea-water to enter. Leaking sea-water reacting with the sulphuric acid of the batteries (again, speculation) could have produced gasses other than hydrogen. Poisonous but nonexplosive chlorine gas, and hydrochloric acid, are common problems in diesel-electric boats. And then remember that it's very likely that electric current is being passed through the sea-water. Again, speculation, but that speculation is based on observations of previous diesel-electric boat battery failures. Among the investigations underway there are some serious questions about how well the battery refurbishment was conducted by the argentines. Related questions are already being raised in the local media.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Huh, for some reason I thought submarines would use something more sophisticated than car batteries. Wouldn't lithium ion take up a lot less space and weight? I suppose the whole 'catching on fire' thing could be a bummer though.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Trouble with submarines seems to be that there's not much margin for error. Once something goes wrong, you're screwed.
@TV
If you mean my job then I'm enjoying it. And my new boss used to be in the airforce, an electrical engineer fixing instruments on Tornados and such. He even lived on Ascension Island for 6 months; it's an interesting place.
Tree, even the “relatively cheap” lead-acid batteries used in the San Juan cost over US$12,000 EACH when new. Multiply that by the 960 or so aboard the boat, plus the items damaged in handling.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Remember that we are dealing with a Kirchnerist Argentina doing things on the cheap. They elected not to purchase new replacement batteries, as was recommended by the boat's manufacturer, for the mid-life upgrade. Instead, they used the original battery cases and presumably replaced the innards. The extent to which the Germans “supervised” this rebuilding of batteries is now suspect. And it seems that the Germans didn't certify those Argentine-refurbished batteries when all was said and done. The certification was done by an Argentine auto-battery shop.
The speculation about evolving hydrogen sulfide is possibly misplaced though we can't rule it out. Hydrogen sulfide venting from lead-acid batteries used in submarines is more commonly associated with comparatively old batteries that have undergone too many charge-discharge cycles. But again, not enough is known about the specific circumstances surrounding this boat.
The Voice
Nov 24th, 2017 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Now our boat and MIL have departed miss our regular visits to Pompey.” Sorry but I haven't a clue about this statement!
My close friend, a fellow apprentice was Chief Electrical Engineer on the Tornado design project in Munich. He left to run a care home in Bournemouth LOL! Ascension's runway in knackered at the moment, inconvenient.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Lithium batteries? Difficult to scale up totally safely at the moment, but things are looking good for the future. In conjunction with solar and wind power they could be the future.
Whats the job?
@ML
Nov 24th, 2017 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This gives a good explanation of why they prefer lead-acid batteries:
http://www.upsbatterycenter.com/blog/ead-acid-batteries-submarines/
But doesn't explain why they cost so much. Were those cases solid gold or something? i'd have thought the innards would be the expensive part.
We aren't going to know what happened unless they can find the sub, which depends on how deep it is. If it's off the edge of the continental shelf, will they even be able to get to it? And if Argentina doesn't have the equipment will they still have international help to investigate when there are no lives at stake? Guess we'll have to wait and see.
@TV
That's quite a career change!
I saw the story about Ascension too, I guess he's glad he's not stuck out there now, but it was long ago now, back in the 80s I think.
Have you ever tried blowing up a lithium battery? It's funny how they swell up first, though I think lithium polymer ones were worse for catching fire than lithium ion. Anyway, they use them in electric cars, but you can get out and call the fire brigade if one of them catches fire, unlike a submarine.
Obviously not a career to be proud of...
Nov 24th, 2017 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aw, is that what you're really interested in? Personally I think the exploding batteries are more exciting.
Nov 24th, 2017 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't want to tell the whole world, but it doesn't involve any Tornados, sadly. However, I've made you a clue so if you really care enough you can work it out:
Lunatic eel minus element.
Today's argie press conference on the lost submarine reiterated a couple of points:
Nov 24th, 2017 - 11:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +31. “No estaba en misión secreta o especial. ” Not involved in a mission that was secret or special.
2. “No hay indicio de ningún ataque ni nada por el estilo” No indication of any attack or anything like that.
Discussion in argie media today of how the 2001-2002 default adversely affected Argentina's ability to have the missing submarine upgraded in an optimal manner:
“ARA San Juan: el default con el Club de París impidió reparar el submarino en Alemania ”
Meanwhile, a federal judge here ordered the preservation of all documentation related to the upgrade of the boat:
“Submarino ARA San Juan: la Justicia ordenó preservar todos los documentos de la reparación de media vida”
@Clyde15
Nov 25th, 2017 - 02:16 am - Link - Report abuse +2“How can we in the UK quash this ridiculous allegation ? There will be Argentinians willing to believe it without a scintilla of evidence..”
My advice would be; don't worry about it. Any Argentine who would take Alejandro Karlen's gibberish seriously is void of logic and simply beyond redemption (unfortunately, that currently encompasses about 25%+ of the adult population). I used to get all wound up about it; now I just treat these idiots as comic relief (without getting complacent about their actually dangerous contingent).
Morons like Karlen do far more harm to the malvinist agenda than they ever do to the Falklanders (thank goodness). They're an embarrassment to their brainwashed “cause”; which, when you think about it, is quite an accomplishment (“biggest nutbar at the nutbar factory”!).
I say make some popcorn and let them rant (mind you, easy for me to say, safely at home in Canada).
“safely at home in Canada”, along with Rique! 25% is a scary percentage. No shortage of rock tossers then?
Nov 25th, 2017 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Yes, safely and coeardly here.
Nov 26th, 2017 - 07:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0I assume you are referring to Enrique Massot. I have had pints with him in the Powderhorn Saloon in Bragg Creek (I showed him my passport & drivers licence; as I did previously with Troy Tempest). While we're diametrically opposed politically; I enjoyed his company immensely; he is a gentleman of the highest order, and a very honourable and interesting individual; despite how much I am located elsewhere on the political spectrum. He has a history that can only be described as fascinating and admirable. If you can't sit down and a have a civilized conversation with Enrique, it would say more about you than him. People are so much more bravely rude, online and anonymous.
I haven't posted on here for quite some time; not since “Capt Poppy & Yankeeboy” days. I don't really remember if you are the “Voice”, one of Think's sockpuppets (USAirForce, DovesOverDover, Voice; so very disappointed when that was confirmed) or the clone that was his nemesis.
Anyway. Cheers.
Derek, I am the unwelcome 'clone'. I was in Calgary recently but didnt meet up with himself. The 'Think' collection of sock puppets is still going strong...
Nov 26th, 2017 - 02:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ho ho ho...
Nov 30th, 2017 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The appearance of DerkeBlake again...
No doubt there is a sudden appearance of Kanye as well, all we need now is Troy Tempest...
Oh look he is mentioned too..
All the same person...it's easy to meet yourself...
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