MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Argentine police shoot dead a Mapuche during an eviction operation in Patagonia
Police clashed with a group of Mapuche during an operation to clear lands seized by members of the indigenous community, and one young Mapuche was killed and two were injured, Argentina's government said on Sunday. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesAre we returning to the days of Juio Argentino Roca?
Nov 27th, 2017 - 07:19 am - Link - Report abuse +6Nothing has changed.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 08:02 am - Link - Report abuse +4“Are we returning to the days of Juio Argentino Roca?” I hope so. the best argentine president ever.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse -4He promoted the secular and free education, he expelled the Vatican from the management of cemeteries and civil registry. He allowed jews to enter, in mass figures, the country. He made excellent diplomatic agreements with the surrounding countries.He built cities, universities and museums....no doubt the best argentine president ever...we are still waiting for a “second” J. A. Roca....
What was that with Argies moaning about how the Falklands are “stolen land”?
Nov 27th, 2017 - 11:50 am - Link - Report abuse +10Must be the same mapuche terrorist element that contributed the “44 fewer” (in reference to lost submarine crew) in their little protest in Bs As.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +5https://www.clarin.com/politica/44-pintada-anarquista-cabildo-quedo-protesta-plaza-mayo-mapuche-muerto_0_ByZGOlYxf.html
pgerman
Nov 27th, 2017 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +7As a white immigrant settler you are probably correct. If you are an indigenous indian whose land was stolen...in Argie terms “usurped” your view would be completely the opposite.
pgerman
Nov 27th, 2017 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +5So you support the repression of the indigenous peoples of Argentina?
@gordo1
Nov 27th, 2017 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -8Of course, I support the LEGAL repression of any people who commit crimes and take actions against the law. These called “mapuches” are, really, part of a terrorist group, RAM, that attacked (and killed) civil and unarmed people and companies in Chile.
@Clyde15
If you listen to the comments, and public, declarations of these “Mapuches” you will listen the despicable discourse of “whites” (contemptuously called “huincas” that means thieves) against indigenous people (called contemptuously “salvajes” that means savage). Mapuches in opposition to whites. A democratic, and civilized, society can not be built based on these concepts.
I don't have a racial point of view of a society. I believed in the liberal concept of “one person one human being with the very same rights and duties”. This is the base of the Argentine National Constitution inspired in both, the French Revolution and the American Revolution. One of the pillars of the Argentine National Constitution is that there are no blood prerogatives. No privileges at all.
“One of the pillars of the Argentine National Constitution is that there are no blood prerogatives. No privileges at all.”
Nov 27th, 2017 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +6Ah, quite so, that gets the European interlopers off the hook very neatly doesnt it, whilst the original population have to whistle for their land and their rights?
Argentina should have a look at the way the US, Oz, Canada and NZ have dealt with their indiginous population, imperfect though it has been. And address the concerns of the original itinerant inhabitants. Isnt Bariloche where all those Nazis relocated to? Think refused to tell me about it?
@The Voice
Nov 27th, 2017 - 02:55 pm - Link - Report abuse -6“the original population have to whistle for their land and their rights”? People, all of us, must get land following the law. Either buying it or using another legal resources. Very close to where Santiago Maldonado lost his life, and Benetton land was usurped by these “mapuches”, there is a small town developed in land given to the mapuches by J. A. Roca.
US, Canada and NZ faced the issue that the original population was really important, either culturally or in number. In Argentina, to the contrary there was little population.
Plenty of nazis, with the help of the Vatican and Juan Domingo Peron, took refuge in Bariloche (and in other parts of the country). Peronism kept on protecting these nazis during decades. Anyway, this fact is not related at all with the pillars of the political organization of Argentina.
Typical Argie....thinks any group of people who are small in number and a “little population” (eg indigenous people, Falklanders, etc) should have no rights. Argies are bullies pure and simple.......and we all know the only thing a bully understands is a bloody nose or a fat lip ;-D
Nov 27th, 2017 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +4@TV
Nov 27th, 2017 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +1As I mentioned to the despicable Kamerad/Komrade Rique after having pointed out to him that he was a National Socialist, and why, there is only one way to deal with National Socialists. The internet being what it is, I leave it to you to discern what that may be... ;)
@Stoker
Nov 27th, 2017 - 05:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -7“We are not going to accept any illegal order. We have no limit other than the National Constitution just in case someone says that the authorities cannot enter at a part of Argentine territory. We will not accept any order that turns the values of the legal order. If the security forces are in front of a crime, they have to act.” Minister P. Bullrich.
Is it very hard to understand?
pgerman
Nov 27th, 2017 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +3¡que colmo de idiotez!
PG “People, all of us, must get land following the law.” How can illiterate uneducated Amerindians use the legal system to get land they and their ancestors have wandered around for thousands of years? Its all their land in truth! If you as a European squatter are going to take it by force, slaughter them, how can they fight back against Europeans armed with guns and European laws? Other nations have given indiginous peoples land and rights, its the least that can be done. The thieves who run your country havent done enough to make it a legal entity in the eyes of fairness.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 05:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +5Argentina is a massive country so why not give some land to these people
Nov 27th, 2017 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +5@The Voice
Nov 27th, 2017 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -7Most of the descendents of original people, little in number, live in total integration with the rest of the society in Argentina without th need of any “special” law or benefit. There are large number of them working in the provincial police department of Neuquen and Rio Negro. Years ago a policeman by the name of Aldo Aigo, with mapuche background, was killed “on duty” and the mapuche extremists made fun of him and said the media they had killed him. Check on the web.
The regular and honest mapuche people reject violence and these extremists groups. This can be checked in the web too.
@golfcronie
“Argentina is a massive country so why not give some land to these people?” Argentina has given these people plenty of land in the past. Please, check a little of argentine history.
Nowadays land cost money as in any place in the World. Any argentine, even foreigner, must work hard to get the money to buy land. Nothing is free in the World in year 2017.
Why don't you work hard to save money and them give your saved money to them? I won't be upset if you (with your money) help them to buy land....
When the British settled the Falklands they persecuted nothing but the seagulls and penguins. Meanwhile I don't see many native sounding names among the Argentine power-mongers. Still, that's genocide for you.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +4pgerman
Nov 27th, 2017 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +4You are missing the point here. European settlers arrived in S.America and settled around the river Plate. Gradually they moved west and south into lands inhabited by local indigenous tribes of people. The Europeans also claimed this land, included it under Argentina and expanded until they met another ex European colony. The boundaries were by and large settled between them. At no time did the original peoples have any say in the matter other than agree or die.
A similar case can be made for the Roman occupation of Britain. Romans invaded and the locals can resist and face annihilation or accept their fate. Their lands have been “usurped” and they are permitted to live under a foreign rule. Some accepted this but the majority were second class citizens in their own land.
At least the Romans went home and the locals took back their land.
The Europeans called themselves Argentinians and encouraged waves of settlers to come and settle on the indigenous people's land. The land grab was codified into their law....not the original owner's law.
So, basically, you took the land by force and hold it under laws made by yourselves to legalise the theft.
@Clyde15
Nov 27th, 2017 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -2You are missing the point here. You cannot stop history. You cannot blame people from history.
Romans occupied etrurian land and forced them to be part of their empire. English did the same with plenty of people in the current British Islands.
While europeans move from East to West, Mapuches move in the opposite direction. Mapuches move from West to East conquering borogano land and killing them, tehuelche land and killing them. etc. This historical process is called “araucanizacion de la Pampa”. They even took part in the independence wars (mostly on the side of the Spanish Empire).
The called “new World” (Argentina, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, etc.) was a bloody world.
Nobody asked native people but they didn't ask anything either. No matter this the Argentine Army had native people in a 1/3 proportion during of the called “Desert Conquest”. After the formal expansion of Argentina they had some land granted and were part of the argentine society.
Since then, they have been and are part of our society. Nobody questions that but we don't need that small extremist groups (RAM for instance) kill people, burn facilities, usurp government and private land....Chile doesn't need this. Argentina doesn't need this.
On the very same day the body of Santiago Maldonado was finally handed over to his family, Argentina security forces shot--from behind--and killed 21-year-old Rafael Nahuel as he was fleeing. Two more Mapuches were injured in the same action.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse -2This is what the government, in an incredible show of dishonesty, calls a “clash.”
The Security Ministry said “four police officers searching in the area were attacked by 15 to 20 hooded people armed with spears, guns and stones.”
Pure B.S.
The Mapuches denied being in possession of any firearms and denied any Ancestral Mapuche Resistance movement (RAM) involvement.
Coincidentally, there hasn't been any weapon, cartridges or bullets recovered that could have been in Mapuche possession.
The bullet that killed Nahuel was from a 9 mm. weapon, a caliber used by security forces.
On Nov. 24, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pronounced a long-overdue apology on behalf of the Government of Canada to members of the Innu, Innuit, and NunatuKavut peoples for the forced acculturation, physical, psychological, and sexual abuse they endured in residential schools in Newfoundland and Labrador. They had been left out of a previous apology offered to First Nations people by former PM Stephen Harper.
The killing of Nahuel, of course, shows the real character of the Macri government when all is said and done.
@Enrique Massot
Nov 27th, 2017 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sadly Santiago Maldonado was buried after dying of drowning, due to his lack of skills, as a swimmer but his family, and some politicians, keeps on accusing the government of something the justice prooved false (even Maldonado familiy judicial technicians' recognized that Santiago died of drowning and his body has never been moved from the site where he passed away).
The 22 year old mapuche died for lack of medical treatment since the people of his radical group refused to send him to a hospital.
There is a young mapuche woman wounded, that was on the mapuches side, that was enrolled in the Argentine Army proving tht the country accept, and integrates, mapuches as part of the society. I truly want her to be condemed for leaving her responsibilities and betray her country.
The eviction of the illegal occuppation of public land, the area belongs to a National Park (in this case they cannot blame a “foreign” and “imperialist” company of illegally owining land) that belongs to the country was ordered by a Judge and the eviction process was under his direct control.
Mauricio Macri's government is not responsible for anything since in Argentina, unlikely Venezuela or Cuba, there is powers division and judges, from the judicial power, make decision without asking the president.
In addition, the presence of radical groups of mapuches has already been proved and accepted by the same mapuches.
@pgerman
Nov 27th, 2017 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -2What a hypocritical way of taking the side of the powerful against the weak.
It's well known that Santiago Maldonado died when the police was chasing Mapuches well after a road blockade--the supposed motive for their action--had ended.
Same in Nahuel's death; the occupation of National Parks land had ended, and the police forces were chasing Mapuches who had been part of the occupation.
Now you tell me how these conflicts are resulting in dead and wounded persons.
There is no way around it; the goal is to intimidate with this sort of extra-judicial executions.
“Mauricio Macri is not responsible for anything.” Give me a break.
@Enrique Massot
Nov 27th, 2017 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You keep on lying.
Santiago Maldonado, and those who left him behind, had been attacking the National Guard (Gendarmeria). This was already proved and even some guards were seriously injured. He scaped becuase he was going to be detained for resisting the law.
Nahuel's dead if quite fresh but the eviction of the land usurped, and illegally occupied, by he, and his accomplices, was ordered by a Federal Judge and they were resisting the eviction. They refuse to leave the National Park. In addition, they are accused of attacking with firearms the Guards (Prefectura this time).
In fact, the Judge stopped the eviction and they are still there...usurping your land and my land. Usurping a National Park that belongs to the whole community.
By the way I challenge you to usurp some part of Banff National Park....let's wait the reaction of the Local, Provincial nd National authorities....
Yes, reekie is lying. As usual.
Nov 27th, 2017 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +2reekie: “....taking the side of the powerful against the weak....”
Translation: “law enforcement dealing with armed terrorists.”
reekie: “... the occupation of National Parks land had ended,....”
The occupation is still underway, reekie. You can read all about it, if you wish:
'La comunidad mapuche mantiene la ocupación y advierte: “Vamos a resistir porque es nuestro territorio” '
Reekie will probably now try to tell us that the mapuche terrorists didn't shoot at the security forces, and that Santiago Maldonado was an olympic-class champion swimmer.
Get real, reekie. You're getting more ridiculous with each passing day.
Reekie,
Nov 27th, 2017 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Starting a lie with “It's well known that...” does not magically turn the subsequent statement into a truth.
Santiago Maldonado died because of his own stupidity during an action designed to provoke the police into a violent reaction could be used as propaganda against Macri.
When the truth came out the anti-Macri thugs had to try again and this death is the result.
The problem is, the K-thugs are running out of things to protest against so they have to initiate violent protests to try and get a reaction that they can try to spin into anti-Macri propaganda (that you accept hook, line and sinker). They must have been really annoyed when it turned out that Maldonado wasn't killed by police action, so they had to resort to “spears, guns and stones” to get the response they wanted. The poor people who are killed or injured in these events don't realise that they've been brainwashed to become the equivalent of kamikaze pilots. Japan only started using kamikazes in desperation when the tide of the war had clearly turned against them.
So when is you turn to be involved in a violent protest? What will your weapon be, a spear, a gun, stones or will you just f@rt in their general direction?
“The occupation is still underway”
Nov 27th, 2017 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -2From the article:
“It said the clash came after some Mapuche fled into the mountains following their eviction from national park land near the Patagonia city of Bariloche.
The statement said four police officers searching in the area...”
If the police had already evicted them from the National Park, why were they hunting for this group in the mountains?
Marti, we all saw what the Spanish police did to unarmed people in Catalonia recently, and that the police claims did not exactly match what we saw recorded on camera phones. Do you want us to believe the Argentine police are any better, or less willing to use violence?
@pgerman
Huincas, huh? Sounds a lot like pirates to me. What makes it your land? You had bigger guns?
I think if Enrique went and occupied a national park, the Canadian police would be highly unlikely to shoot him.
And they finally released the results of Maldonado's autopsy. Did the police explain how they failed to find his body in the first 3 searches?
DT,
Nov 28th, 2017 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse +2“I think if Enrique went and occupied a national park, the Canadian police would be highly unlikely to shoot him.”
True, but if he started throwing rocks, spears and shooting guns at the police and outnumbered them 20:4 they might react in self-defence.
There are, of course, there are different versions of the events leading to Rafael Nahuel's death.
Nov 28th, 2017 - 01:20 am - Link - Report abuse -3According to the Macri government, the Mapuches occupying the park lands were a militarized group with large caliber weapons who attacked the security forces that were chasing them. Oh, and they also used (OMG!!!) stones, spears and even sophisticated 'boleadoras.'
None of the above has been verified by independent sources, and the Mapuches contest the government's version of the facts.
However, the usual cheerleaders already “know” what happened, and of course they parrot the same version given by Security Minister Patricia Bullrich has given. Bullrich went as far as to say that she does not need proof to endorse what the police forces did, and added that “only the judge does.”
And what Macri cheerleader-in-chief pgerman has to say?
“I challenge you to usurp some part of Banff National Park....let's wait the reaction of the Local, Provincial nd National authorities....”
Come on, German. Are you out of your mind? In Canada generally, and particularly under the current government, human life is respected--which is not the case in today's Argentina.
What lecturer-in-chief Marti has to say?
'La comunidad mapuche mantiene la ocupación...“
Not at all. There are some Mapuches who remain at large, but the police has destroyed some precarious construction where they lived and confiscated everything they had there. Negotiations with participation of human rights organizations and the Bishop of Bariloche are taking place for their surrender.
But the cherry belongs to Zaphod:
”...the K-thugs are running out of things to protest against so they have to initiate violent protests...”
Ah, Zaphod, Zaphod...Not even Clarin has gone this far this time. You are alone in your delirium.
@DemonTree
Nov 28th, 2017 - 01:33 am - Link - Report abuse +2”I think if Enrique went and occupied a national park, the Canadian police would be highly unlikely to shoot him'? Please, try throwing stones to them..and them try shooting at them. Let's see the reaction of the canadian forces.
@Enrique Massot
I was wondering why if CKF, and her husband, ruled Argentina during 12 years they did nothing to solve the alleged unfair situation of the mapuches? Why on the hell the sitation kept on being the very same as it was during the previous years? .
If ridiculous reekie had occupied a national park in Canada or elsewhere, and then fired upon the law enforcement patrol in the way the mapuches did, we'd be reading his well-deserved obit right about now
Nov 28th, 2017 - 02:31 am - Link - Report abuse +3Léalo y llore:
“...un grupo de 10 mapuches atacó, en horas de la tarde, primero con piedras y después con armas calibre 22 y 28 a una patrulla de Prefectura Naval que se encontraba realizando tareas de búsqueda de fugitivos en Mascardi que se habían evadido del operativo del 23...”
“... we'd be reading his well-deserved obit right about now”
Nov 28th, 2017 - 02:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0I've got a bottle of unblended Chilean Carménère waiting for the very day that I get to read that... ;)
pgerman
Nov 28th, 2017 - 02:49 am - Link - Report abuse +3‘“Are we returning to the days of Juio Argentino Roca?” I hope so. the best argentine president ever.’
“The rapid disappearance of blacks from Argentina has been attributed to racial genocide on the part of the Argentine government.... The Argentine government was known to have carried out similar ethnic cleansing of the countries Native American population. Historians that criticize claims of black casualties in the civil wars often cite the fact that women did not fight in the Argentine wars, yet black women disappeared simultaneously with men in Argentina.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Argentine
”.. sought to wipe out blacks from the country in a policy of covert genocide through extremely repressive policies (including possibly the forced recruitment of Africans into the army and by forcing blacks to remain in neighbourhoods where disease would decimate them in the absence of adequate health care)....“ www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-argentina-eliminated-africans-its-history-conscience-1289381
”As a result, in some places in the interior of the country, Africans and people of African descent made up more than fifty percent of the population in these areas according to Jonathan C. Brown. According the George Reid Andrews in his book The Afro-Argentines of Buenos Aires, 1800-1900, Buenos Aires’s population itself was a third black at the time of the revolution.” www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/27tauo/what_happened_to_the_black_
@Marti
Nov 28th, 2017 - 04:34 am - Link - Report abuse -3“If ridiculous reekie had occupied a national park in Canada or elsewhere, and then fired upon the law enforcement patrol in the way the mapuches did...”
OK, I see. There is a variety of sources about what happened prior to Rafael Nahuel's killing, but Marti apparently checks only those that reflect the version of the facts he likes.
He won't mention, sources such as Infobae, which reported that no weapons were found. Both the alleged Mapuche attack and their possession of firearms are disputed by the following:
Prefecture (coast guard police) has acknowledged that the 9 mm bullet that killed Nahuel was fired by them. The bullet entered through one of Nahuel's buttock and travelled upwards, damaging several vital organs. Now you tell me how an attacker can be shot on his buttocks--perhaps he turned around just in time just to embarrass the police?
The famous weapons of large caliber parroted by Security Minister Patricia Bullrich were never found. The police, however, confiscated several carpenter saws, machetes, hammers, a sickle, axes (small and large), cell phones, some printed material (probably subversive literature) and similar heavy weaponry.
What the government is doing, in a sick attempt to legitimize the violence against this community, is to try to demonize the Mapuches as if they were a militarized, highly trained group that would not recognize the Argentine state, would want to secede territory from Argentina, etc. etc. Neither of those claims has been proven to date, in spite of two young deads and two injured so far.
@imoyaro
Sorry to rain on your parade, mate. But I have to say, your hateful personality makes you a candidate for health problems. Too bad I don't know your name to keep watch.
“Too bad I don't know your name to keep watch”
Nov 28th, 2017 - 04:42 am - Link - Report abuse +1But that's not for want of trying to find out, eh Kamerad/Komrade? You , Gauchito Drink, and Noise have been stalking people in here for years. :)
What fun! Seeing the Argentine trolls falling out on ”British(?) sponsored new agency”!
Nov 28th, 2017 - 06:56 am - Link - Report abuse +2pgerman
Nov 28th, 2017 - 10:21 am - Link - Report abuse +2Argies only obey the law when it suits them. That is why any Contract, Treaty or other legal Agreement with an Argie is not worth the paper it is written on. Like I said......Argies are bullies and the only thing a bully understands is violence. A bully can never be reasoned with. A bully has no respect for rules.....but at heart all bullies are cowards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-VpkK43_SQ
;-D
Compare imoyaro's unpleasant post to this one by another commenter who disagrees with EM:
Nov 28th, 2017 - 12:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -5http://en.mercopress.com/2017/11/23/missing-submarine-search-returns-to-the-point-where-the-last-contacts-were-made/comments#comment477909
The difference speaks for itself.
Zaphod, pgerman, if people were just throwing stones I don't believe the Canadian police would shoot them. If they had guns then maybe, but it depends on what actually happened and I don't trust either side's account. The fact he was shot in the back doesn't exactly scream self defence.
That reekie doesn't understand how criminals tend to hide incriminating evidence is making his comments increasingly laughable. That he continues to support this sort of terrorism is rather disturbing.
Nov 28th, 2017 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I notice that, beside Marti's vague claim of “terrorism” not one has come out with an explanation of how the Argentine government can claim self defence when one alleged terrorist is shot from behind and no weapons were ever found.
Nov 28th, 2017 - 02:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Officials have so far said the security forces do not need to “prove anything,” which acknowledges country's citizens should not expect guarantees and comes close to declare state terrorism.
Reekie is clearly unfamiliar with how such confrontations unfold. Having been once a part of a counterterrorism force, I can tell you that we don't wait until the bad guys are standing up and facing us. In fact, a bad guy moving to another position often affords the best opening for a shot. And if that bad guy's move exposes his buttocks, all the better.
Nov 28th, 2017 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1This silliness reminds us of the Kirchnerist complaints about the sinking of the ARA Belgrano, that was supposedly at the moment of sinking moving toward the continent, as if such a change of position somehow altered the ship's condition as a belligerent. Even the ship's captain said that, in effect, such reekie-esque chatter is complete bullshit.
People here expect the present government to enforce the law and provide protection for those under attack, and that involves dealing with terrorists in the appropriate manner.
That Mart doesn't understand the police can overreact or mistreat peaceful protesters is frankly implausible.
Nov 28th, 2017 - 06:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Have you forgotten these scenes so soon, Marti?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s
“Argentina recently renewed a law stating that indigenous people could not be removed from their territory without the government having registered the plan and knowing or mapping all the communities that exist. The legislation, however, is not being implemented as it should, and it is still not enough to guarantee the rights of indigenous people, Fontoura Márques says. For instance, the law does not guarantee indigenous people the title to their territories.”
Nov 28th, 2017 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.thebubble.com/argentina-just-went-up-for-human-rights-review-heres-how-it-went/
Reekie,
Nov 28th, 2017 - 07:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”...sources such as Infobae, which reported that no weapons were found. Both the alleged Mapuche attack and their possession of firearms are disputed by the following: Prefecture (coast guard police) has acknowledged that the 9 mm bullet that killed Nahuel was fired by them. “
The latter statement does not disprove the first. If the Mapuche took their guns away with them then they wouldn't be found.
I've seen photographs of Mapuches carrying guns.
”But the cherry belongs to Zaphod:”
Thank you Thank you. :-)
@Stoker
Nov 28th, 2017 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So much for pgerman's rosy view of things. And I see in another headline Macri's cousin has had his assets seized due to suspected irregularities in the awarding of a contract. It's related to the case against José López and Ricardo Jaime which has been reported here several times; I wonder if this incident will make it onto Mercopress?
@ZB
Do you have any particular reason to believe the police account? And the fact that some Mapuche somewhere has been photographed with a gun proves what exactly?
I think it's worrying that the government is saying they believe the border patrol and no investigation is necessary. If the police are believed without question that effectively puts them above the law, and we know how dangerous that is.
Local media here covering “unconfirmed” government report on some 40 mapuche illegally entering Argentina from Chile, connected with groups previously associated with violence in Chile and interference with the Santiago Maldonado investigation.
Nov 28th, 2017 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“El Gobierno recibió datos sobre el supuesto ingreso ilegal de 40 mapuches por la frontera con Chile - Lo reveló Garavano, y vinculó a los miembros del Lof Laufken Winkul Mapu con grupos que generaron ”hechos de violencia“ en el país vecino y que ”obstaculizaron“ la investigación del caso Maldonado...”
Things are going to get uglier.
The Macri government wants to overhaul labour, fiscal and retirement laws with the goal of concentrating the national income in fewer hands. Such changes, however, cannot be implemented without crushing any resistance from those who will be affected.
Nov 29th, 2017 - 04:11 am - Link - Report abuse -1That is why the Mapuches are being subjected to increased violence on the part of the Macri administration, and that is why both the Security Minister and the Vice-president have made provocative statements that ignore the law and guarantee the impunity of the security forces no matter what they do.
At the same time, the government's friendly media portray the Mapuches as armed, combat-trained and aiming to create a separate state.
Armies of trolls reinforce the same notion in the social media to increase the credibility of the narrative. As an example, just look at Marti's posting above, dutifully reproducing cheap gossip from La Nacion in an effort to create an illusion of invasion of violent Mapuches through the Chilean border.
If the government were to succeed creating this “us” and “them” tale, then the situation will be ripe to expand the abuses in Patagonia to the whole country.
Reekie,
Nov 29th, 2017 - 05:07 am - Link - Report abuse +2You infer that you'd be happy to be attacked with such ineffectual weapons as ”carpenter saws, machetes, hammers, a sickle, axes (small and large)“. Explains a lot!
”...try to demonize the Mapuches as if they were a militarized, highly trained group...“
You exaggerate. They are armed but probably not well trained.
”... that would not recognize the Argentine state, would want to secede territory from Argentina, etc. etc.“
Which is exactly what they themselves are asking for is it not? If they say they want Argentine territory then how can you blame Macri's government for simply repeating this fact?
”That is why the Mapuches are being subjected to increased violence on the part of the Macri administration“
So you don't think it is a response to increased violence from the Mapuches and their supporters.
”At the same time, the government's friendly media portray the Mapuches as armed, combat-trained and aiming to create a separate state.”
Fact: The Mapuches are armed and want to create a separate state.
You: The government are bad for saying that the Mapuches are armed and want to create a separate state.
Do you realise what you are typing?
Why do some Argentines support these people, some of whom are Chilean, in their attempts to illegally take Argentine territory and in the same breath complain about the Falklands, which is a territory that Argentina attempted to take illegally by force? Except the Mapuches probably have some justification in their claim, unlike the completely fabricated claim that Argentina has for the Falklands.
“Fact: The Mapuches are armed and want to create a separate state.”
Nov 29th, 2017 - 01:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Zaphod: I am okay with debating ideas. However, debate gets skewed if you start from a false premise or, as you call it, “fact.”
Let's start. Please provide support to your above statement in relation to the actions that led to the killing of Rafael Nahuel and the suspicious death of Santiago Maldonado.
Yes, Zaphod, I'd like to see that too. Bearing in mind this group has said they are not associated with the RAM, and have admitted throwing stones but denied having guns (though I wouldn't take their word for that).
Nov 29th, 2017 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -3“Why do some Argentines support these people, some of whom are Chilean, in their attempts to illegally take Argentine territory and in the same breath complain about the Falklands, which is a territory that Argentina attempted to take illegally by force?”
Why do some people support the Catalonians' attempts to hold an illegal referendum and illegally secede from Spain? I think those who support the Mapuches are more consistent than people like pgerman who say the Mapuches took land from the Tehuelches by force, and the Argentines took it from the Mapuches by force, and then complain that Britain took the Falklands by force.
Besides which, you don't have to support someone's cause to think they shouldn't be shot by the police unless it's really self defence, and that the authorities should investigate such incidents rather than blindly trusting the police.
A quick Google search: ”Resistencia Ancestral Mapuche (Spanish: Mapuche Ancestral Resistance, RAM) is a separatist terrorist group that operates near Patagonia in Argentina and Chile, seeking to secede territories of both countries to create a Mapuche nation.”
Nov 29th, 2017 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +2So, like I said: Fact: The Mapuches are armed and want to create a separate state.
Let me be clear, I don't support illegal attacks on anyone, but if the Mapuches attack then the police are entitled to self defence and have a duty to protect others from any violence.
The Mapuche dispute has been ongoing for 500 years since the Spanish evicted them and CFK certainly did nothing to help them so why blame Macri for everything?
And like I said, this group have denied being part of the Resistencia Ancestral Mapuche. Pretending a whole group of people is like the most extreme elements is not an honest tactic. Is there any evidence this Lof Lafken Winkul Mapu group believe in using violence, or that they want to create a separate state? The only evidence they had guns is the police statement, and the police are hardly impartial here.
Nov 29th, 2017 - 08:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“why blame Macri for everything?”
No one is blaming Macri for everything, but how many protesters were killed under CFK? It's the government who sets the policy for the police and tells them how aggressive they should be in enforcing the law - again, please compare to Catalonia; people were quick enough to blame Rajoy for the police violence there. And Macri's government has shown a disturbing amount of indifference towards these two deaths.
You say you don't support illegal attacks on anyone; well, do you think it should be investigated so we can find out if there was an illegal attack, or if the police acted reasonably? Because Security Minister Patricia Bullrich apparently doesn't. She said ”We don’t have to prove anything. We believe what Border Patrol members told us. The forces were faced by a violent group,”
We can't blame Macri for the original problem or every action of the police, but he is responsible for how the country investigates these incidents. The police should not be above the law.
DT
Nov 29th, 2017 - 08:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +6It was CFK that was orchestrating the “protests” and activist attacks during the Kirchnerist reign.
For example, tyre burning at cruise ship docks and smashing up the cruise ship offices in BA, while videos show the police in riot gear looking on but not intervening.
Directed by the government, as you say.
The majority of those claiming to be original natives are Chilean or of first or second generation Chileans. Before going any further the documents of those claiming to be “original settlers” should be checked. We would find most of the claims are to “ancestral lands” to be totally false. The history of the malones, going back to 1821, the indian invasions of white settler-held lands were chileans incentivated by the Chilean government and on various occasions led by Chilean officers going back to 1821. The reasons for these false “ancestral lands are simple enough: the so-called ”Mapuches“ live in poor, rocky parts of Chile where they have little or no economic future so playing the ”ancestral lands” scheme in Argentina is worth their effort.
Nov 29th, 2017 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -1@DT
Nov 29th, 2017 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse -3I couldn't have said it better. A government that has the use of force must show restraint and avoid escalation--of course, unless escalation is precisely the goal. There is zero evidence that the Mapuche group used any violence against the police. In addition, they were occupying the land with women and children, who were the first to be apprehended.
But there is more and worse every day in Macri's Argentina.
During a cabinet meeting, the president expressed surprise when told that the security forces had asked for permission before using firearms in the incident that ended up in the killing of Rafael Nahuel.
Macri said the police should have used lethal force without asking anyone. (This was reported both by Pagina 12 and Clarin).
And Cabinet Chief Marcos Peña expressed dissatisfaction with the fact the judge in charge is presently negotiating with the Mapuche with participation of human rights organization and the Bishop of Bariloche. The government's Human Rights division emphasized it is not part of those negotiations.
Never thought I would see this happening in democracy.
@viejopatagon
Nov 29th, 2017 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Mostly correct. Much of the territory that the RAM and similar organisations are attempting to steal were actually Tehuelche lands and not “ancestral mapuche” at all. Sort of like a Canadian Haida tribe going to Mexico and trying to claim Jalisco as their own.
Hey oy oy oy don't think we're all the same..the fact that some people are trolls, violent and bullies doesn't mean we're all the same. It's very easy to generalise. Think there are a lot of honest, hard working and peaceful people.
Nov 29th, 2017 - 11:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Sorry, Super K's
Nov 29th, 2017 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +5A bit off topic, but your comments are just lame attempts to smear Macri and attach the traditional Argie approach to dealing with aboriginal peoples, to Macri's government.
Just like CFK tweeting
“The adjustment on retirees | The Government's strategy to weaken the public retirement system”
in reference to pension reforms countering her own theft of private pension funds to give to the unemployed as a populist handout.
To the people saying it's not Macri's fault: can you name any protesters killed while CFK was President?
Nov 30th, 2017 - 01:23 am - Link - Report abuse -5Do you think Macri telling the police they do not need to ask before using lethal force is likely to result in more people being killed in future, or less?
And does anyone here think the police should be above the law, or that the Argentine police are totally trustworthy?
No one is saying Macri created the problem, but he does decide how to deal with it, and it's his government who ultimately give orders to the police.
DT
Nov 30th, 2017 - 05:45 am - Link - Report abuse +5You're as delusional as the Malvinistas and Kirchneristas
@DT
Nov 30th, 2017 - 06:00 am - Link - Report abuse -3Absolutely. Not one is “trying” to “smear” president Macri. He is already succeeding all by himself.
The bigger picture in the ongoing conflict for land in Patagonia cannot be understood without knowing that land had been sold, generally at very low prices, to foreigners such as billionaire Joseph Lewis, who has bought 12,000 hectares of land that includes the only public access to Escondido lake. Lewis has ignored court orders to allow the public access to the lake. Hey, no anti riot police enforcing THESE court orders.
Luciano Benetton has purchased 900,000 hectares, and there is many more examples easy to find by googling. Some portions of Lewis and Benetton lands are claimed by the Mapuches, but hey, guess what happen?
The law, as they say, is like a spider web. It catches the little bug but it's easily broken down by the larger one.
President Macri has taken vacation in friend Lewis' mansion in Escondido Lake. Lewis is main shareholder of Edenor, has benefited from the energy prices hikes, and the company has also been pardoned a billion pesos in debt with the Argentine state.
@Lightning
Nov 30th, 2017 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse -3Since you are simply attacking me now, I assume you can't answer any of my points.
@EM
“ Hey, no anti riot police enforcing THESE court orders.”
What a surprise.
“the company has also been pardoned a billion pesos in debt with the Argentine state.”
How and why did that happen? I'd say the Argentine state can ill afford to lose any money it is owned.
Interesting article:
Nov 30th, 2017 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://www.clarin.com/politica/historia-tragica-aigo-muerte-mapuche-amparo-festejo-jones-huala_0_HJcQ4Opgf.html
@DemonTree “ To the people saying it's not Macri's fault: can you name any protesters killed while CFK was President?”
Nov 30th, 2017 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Tree, you can be so terribly naive wherein things argentine are concerned.
Where to start, for crissake. Here, perhaps. And in the vernacular, though we'll summarise the theme for you: 14 dead in protests in a little over a year during reign of CFK: “ DURANTE LA GESTION DE CRISTINA KIRCHNER - En poco más de un año, 14 muertos por represión a la protesta social - Es pese a la promesa del Gobierno de no criminalizar los reclamos.”
“ La represión en un desalojo de tierras jujeñas de la familia Blaquier, una acción comandada por la policía de la provincia, gobernada por el kirchnerista Walter Barrionuevo, suma por ahora cuatro muertos. En ningún otro caso de la era K habían fallecido tantas personas durante una manifestación social. Pero habían muerto otras, sí. A pesar de que el oficialismo asegura que no criminaliza ni judicializa las manifestaciones, la realidad se impone. En los cuatro años de gobierno de Cristina Kirchner murieron doce civiles y dos policías en situaciones de reclamo político. Catorce muertos. La presidenta Cristina Kirchner sólo habló públicamente de uno de ellos: del militante del PO Mariano Ferreyra, asesinado el año pasado por una patota de sindicalistas ferroviarios. ...La versión del Gobierno es que no impulsa la criminalización de la protesta, una política que, por supuesto, podría tener fallas y consecuencias. Pero un repaso por los 14 muertos en manifestaciones muestran que el oficialismo reaccionó en forma dispar ante los hechos: no siempre los repudió ni pidió investigaciones judiciales para dilucidar responsabilidades políticas . Los dirigentes sociales opositores, además, aseguran que son denunciados por protestar....”
@Enrique Massot
Nov 30th, 2017 - 02:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +4“The law, as they say, is like a spider web. It catches the little bug but it's easily broken down by the larger one”.
Enrique, you forgot another example of powerful people buying patagonian land for peanuts. Nestor Kirchner “bought” a large portion of land in the best and more expensive place of Santa Cruz, near El Calafate, at a bargain price sold by the Town Hall. Guess what? When he was president of the Country !!!!
Both his wife, CFK, and his sister, the current Governor of Santa Cruz Province, also took advantage of the “Santa Cruz land Black Friday”....
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-29/argentina-leaves-evita-behind
Nov 30th, 2017 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +2DT,
Nov 30th, 2017 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“And like I said, this group have denied being part of the Resistencia Ancestral Mapuche. Pretending a whole group of people is like the most extreme elements is not an honest tactic.”
I shouldn't have given the impresion I was blaming all Mapuches for the violent protests since I am sure that the majority are peaceful, but RAM is clearly an extreme terrorist group who “are armed and want to create a separate state”.
“Is there any evidence this Lof Lafken Winkul Mapu group believe in using violence, or that they want to create a separate state?”
I don't know, but RAM clearly do and when the police see people with their faces covered and carrying guns then they aren't going to be interested in which group they claim to be members of.
“The only evidence they had guns is the police statement, and the police are hardly impartial here.”
Not true, I've seen photographs. My wife showed me photographs allegedly of Mapuche guys with covered faces carrying guns, but there's also this: https://infoconnoticias.blogspot.com/2017/10/mapuches-armas-desde-venezuela-la.html
“No one is blaming Macri for everything“
Have you read Reekie's posts?
”but how many protesters were killed under CFK?“
Nisman for starters. Also, I see Marti has provided a fuller answer. I think the answer is ”many” and way more than the one killed in 2 years of Macri (I don't count Maldonado because he killed himself).
“do you think it should be investigated so we can find out if there was an illegal attack, or if the police acted reasonably?”
Yes, but I also think that the Mapuches should allow the police access to collect forensics to do that investigation. Why was an attempt to gather evidence prevented by the Mapuches? Did they want to hide something? Did they not want a repeat of what forensics did to the Maldonado claims?
You can't say that you want an investigation and then prevent it from being effective.
@ ridiculous reekie “ Luciano Benetton has purchased 900,000 hectares...”
Nov 30th, 2017 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +4The Benetton holdings are only the most recent in a long series of ownerships of that ranch area. Back around 1889 part of this was the ranch land held by the Argentine Southern Land Company Limited, which included the Leleque estancia, where the latter-day mapuches have been conducting armed incusions. But reekie would as many mindless argies do, in blaming the Benettons alone.
I used to take tourists on my guided tours of the Leleque ranch and the museum on the ranch. I have a copy of a photo which appears to show the infamous “Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid” visiting Leleque. The reason: those two were installed at their own ranch in nearby Cholila and periodically visited Leleque, both for supplies and for the company of English-speaking folk. For those who might read the local language, I suggest a reading of the book LELEQUE, UNA ESTANCIA EN PATAGONIA.
'Estancia', or station, a word borrowed from the Australians who established the first sheep stations in Patagonia..
Nov 30th, 2017 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I see Martillazo has added tourist guide to his rather plentiful panoply of past jobs that included being a journalist in troubled areas of the world and an intelligence agent.
Nov 30th, 2017 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse -5And guess what, he is predictably and valiantly coming to the defense of Luciano Benetton and Joseph Lewis (this one does not need Marti's help because has armed guards blocking anyone wanting to approach the shores of Lago Escondido).
There are several You Tube documents about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz_2wthE7i0
“... can you name any protesters killed while CFK was President?” Sure, Roberto López and Javier Chocobar. And a number of Qom tribe members run over by vehicles assocated with the Narcokleptocratic oligarchs, the Celía family in Formosa, a Narcokleptocratic stronghold even after the last elections. Members of La Campora have attacked protesting Qom tribe members both in Formosa and in Buenos Aires, even firebombing their protest camp in the capital.“Fernández has cast herself as a defender of human rights, throwing her political weight behind the trials against military officials of the dictatorship era, but her government has consistently disregarded the rights claimed by indigenous leaders such as Díaz.” “The government talks about human rights during the time of the dictatorship while it violates the rights of the indigenous people today,” says Pérez Esquivel.“The Qom don’t live in press conferences; they don’t live on 9 de Julio avenue. They live in Formosa.” ~ La Asesina
Dec 01st, 2017 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse +5https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_people
https: //www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/05/argentina-fight-reclaim-ancestral-land-indigenous-leader
http: //www.argentinaindependent.com/currentaffairs/latest-news/newsfromargentina/qom-man-killed-in-formosa-hit-and-run/
http: //en.mercopress.com/2013/01/12/second-indigenous-teenager-in-a-week-murdered-in-the-north-east-of-argentina
https: //www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2013/08/indigenous-peoples-argentina-we-are-strangers-our-own-country/
http://rantburg.com/images/piefight05.jpg
ridiculous reekie needs to understand that the holdings in this region of the patagonia (including the parts we are dealing with in this mapuche business) were contracted under Argentine law for the development of the region and the betterment of the nation. In the case of the Southern Argentine Land Company, they built a railroad that enhanced the productivity of the region. That many of the successful sheep operations were run by British corporations should be no surprise to anyone.
Dec 01st, 2017 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Such ranch operations and similar holdings then as now, were not crimes but rather productive economic enterprises, creating wealth and providing employment, concepts I am quite certain elude you, reekie.
And yes, reekie, since I work here and you don't, as journalist and guide from the 1970s onward I have taken many tourists to some of the old estancias, from Leleque in Chubut to Harberton in Tierra del Fuego province, and there is little doubt that I know a great deal more about the local history than you do. To help you fill in the vast holes in your deficient understanding of this region I suggested that book on Leleque. And there is so much more for you to learn and understand about this part of Argentina.
It's hilarious how the despicable Kamerad/Komrade Rique would mock somebody else's employment. Indeed, it's obvious that he owes his recent crushing failure to infiltrate the Canadian governmental system not only because his neighbors see him for what he is, but in a more general sense they understand that, in this day and age,putting a Populist bus driver in any position of power is a bad idea. As for his attempt to draw attention away from the Narcokleptocracy's full on assault against indigenous peoples (note that Macri has tried to reach out to the people who were murdered and assaulted by the Kriminals,) that is due to his having lived in Northern Argentina, where Toba/Guaicuru and Tupi/Guarani speakers are looked down upon as somehow subhuman. Once again, he reveals himself to be a stinking, genocidal Kurepi. ;)
Dec 01st, 2017 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Thank you to the people who gave sensible replies. Marti, pgerman, imoyaro; do you think CFK is similarly not to blame for deaths during her presidency?
Dec 01st, 2017 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -4The Clarin article that Marti didn't link to says some of the deaths were investigated and others not, so was there a big public reaction to them like there was for Maldonado's disappearance and this shooting?
@ZB
We agree the RAM is a violent group, but even Clarin says they are a minority and don't represent most of the Mapuche communities, who reject their methods. If this group was shooting at the police that is one thing, but they can't assume any group of Mapuches is part of RAM, even if they cover their faces (and I have seen this is common at protests in Argentina).
And Enrique agreed when I said we can't blame Macri for the original problem or every action of the police, so you can't claim he's blaming Macri for everything.
I wasn't asking for evidence any Mapuche have guns, but whether this group had them and shot at the police. It's a valid point that they aren't letting the police investigate properly, though it should be done by a different branch as the Border Force are bound to support their colleagues. The judge is negotiating with the protesters, so hopefully that can be sorted out.
I'm glad you agree there should be an investigation, anyway. Do you also agree the search for Maldonado should have started earlier? His body was found pretty close to where he was last seen, if it was in the (fairly small and shallow) river all that time then they should have been able to find it earlier.
@EM
“I see Martillazo has added tourist guide to his rather plentiful panoply of past jobs that included being a journalist in troubled areas of the world and an intelligence agent.”
You missed out military and counter-terrorism force member, estancia owner, and according to him, millionaire.
@Tree
Dec 01st, 2017 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I do detect a note of jealousy on the part of DT, for his never having had the whatever to do the half of what I've been able to accomplish in the past 7 decades. And to think that you get the benefit of all that experience for next to nothing!
I dunno. I suppose I wish I'd done more when I was young and single, but I didn't have the confidence. But Marti, it's hard to be jealous of you when you seem so bitter and miserable about everything. I can't decide if it would be more depressing or hilarious to have you as a tour guide, telling me how TdF is full of boring dusty landscapes and the sun only shines 4 days a year in Aysén and that Torres del Paine national park is totally over-hyped. It doesn't sound like you really enjoy anything except schadenfreude.
Dec 02nd, 2017 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse -3Whose army were you in anyway? Francos?
“imoyaro; do you think CFK is similarly not to blame for deaths during her presidency?”
Dec 02nd, 2017 - 05:15 am - Link - Report abuse +4Once again, “you can't be arsed” (your words) to read the wealth of sources I provided, can you? Did Macri send in a private army of (La Campora) thugs to help police controlled directly by FpV (La Asesina's party,) and Ultra K Oligarchs to burn villages, shoot beat and torture dozens of people with the aim of driving them off land that was legally (not claimed) recognized as theirs? Has Macri used a private army of (La Campora) thugs to attack and firebomb peaceful (no guns, and non-violent) protestors like La Asesina has? (Remember the direct quote “The Qom don’t live in press conferences; they don’t live on 9 de Julio avenue. They live in Formosa.” ~ La Asesina?) Has Macri killed anyone directly like La Asesina most certainly has? Macri is an Argentine politician with all that that implies. As Tarquin has pointed out, he is “dodgey.” But he is not the head of a widespread criminal network that has looted the country, assassinated a threatening prosecutor, and oversaw from the Casa Rosada the shipment of meth precursor drugs to the Mexican gangs to be turned into meth to be pumped into the US in an effort to “crush the empire,” like La Asesina. You needn't bother looking it up in Clarin, I rarely use that source, they are like Fox news. You are clearly here to support all this along with the truly despicable Kamerad/Komrade Rique who would probably choke to death if he ever spoke the whole truth. Keep trying to pump people for personal details, it underlines my view of you and the rest of the K thugs in here. :)
@imoyaro
Dec 02nd, 2017 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse -5You're right, I hadn't read all your links (only the Amnesty International one). I've been busy and there were a lot of replies.
If you think the indigenous people in Argentina were badly treated under CFK, and continue to be badly treated under Macri, why didn't you disagree with pgerman when he said he supports the legal repression of people who commit crimes and take actions against the law? The group in your links blocked a road for four months, very similar to the group Maldonado was with. And why didn't you post your link that says nearly one million people in Argentina consider themselves direct descendants of the nation's indigenous inhabitants, after pgerman claimed there was little native population in Argentina and they were unimportant culturally? Or that Roca was the best Argentine president ever? You posted here right afterwards.
I've read your links now and I don't see anything about La Campora thugs attacking peaceful protesters. Nor am I at all convinced that CFK was responsible for Nisman's death. ElaineB's theory that SIDE had something to do with it seems far more plausible.
I want to make it clear that I don't like CFK, I don't support CFK, and I don't want to see her elected as president again. That's less likely if Macri does a good job, and unfortunately I don't think he is.
But if you imagine I have some kind of pro-K agenda then that tells me a lot about you and how seriously to take your similar claims about Enrique and Think.
DT,
Dec 04th, 2017 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”If this group was shooting at the police that is one thing, but they can't assume any group of Mapuches is part of RAM, even if they cover their faces (and I have seen this is common at protests in Argentina).”
I think they'd assume that they were part of RAM until shown otherwise. If you are faced with any potential threat (and why would people cover their faces unless it was to hide their identity?), it makes sense to cautiously assume that it is a threat until you have confirmed that it isn't. If they did as you are suggesting then they'd be walking into ambushes all the time!
Do you ignore all the warning signs that you see because you assume that most of the time the warning isn't necessary?
“... you can't claim [Enrique]'s blaming Macri for everything.”
OK, maybe not literally everything, but everything up to easily discredited scenarios.
“I wasn't asking for evidence any Mapuche have guns, but whether this group had them and shot at the police.” If anyone has that evidence it should be the police and I agree that it should be produced at the correct legal point.
“It's a valid point that they aren't letting the police investigate properly, though it should be done by a different branch as the Border Force are bound to support their colleagues.”
Seems reasonable.
“Do you also agree the search for Maldonado should have started earlier?”
Didn't it start as soon as he was reported missing?
”His body was found pretty close to where he was last seen, if it was in the (fairly small and shallow) river all that time then they should have been able to find it earlier.”
Again, were the police allowed access? Also, as discussed previously, bodies can behave in odd ways in water so the delay in discovering the body may be reasonable.
Funny how people who were quick to submit to trial, convict and sentence Cristina in absentia for prosecutor Nisman's death have so much trouble acknowledging what happened to Santiago Maldonado and Rafael Nahuel.
Dec 05th, 2017 - 06:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Can't help but wonder - in fact, I do know how they would have reacted if Maldonado and Nahuel's deaths had occurred under CFK government: they would be screaming bloody murder for the victims. It was exactly what Clarin and infamous journalist Lanata did with the Qom native community in Formosa during CFK - they were very worried about their living conditions and a death apparently due to poor nutrition and lack of care. Now they forgot the Qom even exist.
reekie, let's remind you once again that the CFK government did everything it could to pollute the Nisman murder location in attempts to prevent discovery of evidence of the perpetrators. It is rather unambiguous that the CFK government participated in this crime.
Dec 05th, 2017 - 02:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We do very much appreciate your consistent and unfailing knee-jerk support for every crime and corrupt practice attributable to the CFK regime.
@ZB
Dec 06th, 2017 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse -2Cautiously assuming it's a threat involves shooting someone? In the back? Obviously it is not okay for the police to kill anyone who covers their face. If the group could prove they didn't have guns, would you agree it was excessive use of force?
And yeah, if the police have evidence that is different, but it should be produced, they should not just be believed like the government wants to do.
“Didn't [the search] start as soon as he was reported missing?”
This article agrees with what I read at the time, that the government did not take any serious action to find him until urged by the UN:
https://www.cels.org.ar/web/en/2017/08/el-comite-contra-la-desaparicion-forzada-de-la-onu-exige-la-accion-urgente/
There were several searches before his body was found; there are even videos of them, and it certainly looks like they had access to anywhere they wanted. But I haven't seen the river, and I don't really trust the newspapers in Argentina not to spin the story, so who knows if it could have been hidden under water somehow.
@EM
“Can't help but wonder - in fact, I do know how they would have reacted if Maldonado and Nahuel's deaths had occurred under CFK government: they would be screaming bloody murder for the victims.”
Here's LEPRecon's comment from the old MP article that Imoyaro linked to:
“When will this brutal slaying of the young stop?
”When will the Argentine government start looking inwards at its own problems, and move to protect their own people?
“When will Argentina RESPECT the indigenous people of THEIR own country?
”This is an absolute tragedy, and the Argentine government should hold their heads in shame.“
Is that enough screaming bloody murder for you?
In another comment, Skip said: ”Crimes like these are a reflection on the government so are a reflection on CFK.”
Not so different to me saying Macri has ultimate responsibility, but naturally no one disagreed with him.
Looks as though the macri government is going to remove the asylum status for one of reekie's other pals, the marxist terrorist Galvarino Apablaza, who was behind the murder of senator Jaime Guzmán.in Chile in 1991. The CFK government had provided such criminals with protection (Galvarino Apablaza was married to a member of CFK's government.....birds of a feather) .
Dec 06th, 2017 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +1DT,
Dec 06th, 2017 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Cautiously assuming it's a threat involves shooting someone? In the back?”
Possible scenarios:
- Protester shoots at police and then turns away before police responds in self-defence.
- Protester shoots at police and police responds in self-defence but misses the intended target and hits another protester with his back turned.
- Protester shoots at police and police responds in self-defence but misses the intended target, there is a ricochet and someone is hit in the back.
The above scenarios could involve police self-defence and someone getting shot in the back.
“If the group could prove they didn't have guns, would you agree it was excessive use of force?”
Yes, but how could they prove that?
“And yeah, if the police have evidence that is different, but it should be produced, they should not just be believed like the government wants to do.”
I agree. I am saying that it is equally unreasonable to assume the police are guilty as it is to assume they are innocent. Given the principle of innocence until proven guilty, it is actually more unreasonable to assume guilt rather than innocence. There were widespread accusations and protests about alleged police actions before it was shown that Maldonado had effectively killed himself.
I agree that there should be an investigation, but you need to prove guilt. Unless and until you can do that, any reasonably plausible alternative (such as I have provided above) effectively prevents a guilty verdict.
Let's try to explain this one more time: when you have bad guys hiding in the bushes, shooting at you and moving from place to place, until you have an unambiguous surrender (and we didn't see that in these events) then “shooting someone in the back” is just as correct, moral, and valid as shooting someone in the top or shooting someone in the bottom or shooting someone in the side. These pollyanna pansies who take their combat notions from television have no understanding of how real shootouts work.
Dec 06th, 2017 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Same sort of thing with bad guys with knives, spears, etc. You tell them to drop it and if they don't, you shoot them in the centre of mass. In the gut, if you will. That's your training. If you can't run with the big dogs, then go back to the porch.
Remember that these are trans-national groups moving weapons between Chile and Argentina
Media:
“Investigan tráfico de armas desde Argentina por mapuches detenidos en Chile”
“Chile: terroristas mapuches habrían recibido armas desde Argentina para ataques en Araucanía ”
https://media.biobiochile.cl/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/FOTO-MAPU-2-1024x576.jpg
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