MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Violent protests in Buenos Aires as Congress attempted to discuss a pensions reform plan
A trade union-organized march in Buenos Aires descended into violence Thursday, with thousands of protesters clashing with police as they demanded lawmakers reject a controversial pension reform plan. Riot police used water cannons, tear gas and rubber bullets against demonstrators, who threw stones and burned barricades made of rubbish outside the doors of Argentina's congress. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesPot bangers, tyre burners and rock throwers rule..
Dec 15th, 2017 - 09:40 am - Link - Report abuse +3https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-pensions/argentina-congress-suspends-pension-reform-vote-due-to-protests-idUSKBN1E82V9
Could this nation be trusted with the Falkland Islands - Nooooooooooooooooooo !
Both the headline and the story above present only one side of the story: that of the Macri government.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 01:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -8Nothing is said about the unprecedented militarization of the surroundings of Congress to prevent mostly peaceful demonstrators from coming near the building.
Nothing is said that even a notorious member of Cambiemos criticized the exaggerated operation that placed about 900 police forces in full riot gear, using tear gas, peeper spray, rubber bullets, coloured water etc.
Nothing is said that several of the demonstrators who were brutally beaten were legislators trying to come between demonstrators and police, all in the name of making retirees pay the cost of Macri's misgovernment.
Fortunately, before the wise monkeys and Macri cheerleaders begin spilling their usual garbage, there is abundant written and graphic material clearly showing what happened yesterday.
Mr. Massot,
Dec 15th, 2017 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +6I believe that your rather biased comments don't reflect the absolute truth. You say “to prevent mostly peaceful demonstrators from coming near the building” which sadly was not the case. There were many vandalous acts like burning trash cans, fire bombing at least 15 cars, throwings stones at the police and breaking shop windows, etc. Furthermore inside the congressional building supporters of your party tried to black-mail other deputies in changing their votes, foul language being used by those same deputies against their colleagues of other parties, etc.etc. Not exactly a show of democray but rather a repeat performance of the past K government who are and never have been used to accepting defeat with grace and respect to their fellow peers.
As regards the “exagerated operation that placed about 900 police...” one must presume that your in favour of these hooligans getting into the building, causing any manner o chaos that they are well accostumed to causing.
As for the contents of the law(s) under discussion I accept that the laws proposed shld certainly be discussed in a democratic and orderly manner. However if the opposition cannot allow for this to happen, then we arrive at the same situation as already mentioned. Caos to reign supreme to the detriment of anybody believing in democracy...................a well known K manner of historically proceding.
Violent Kirchnerist hooligans in the streets. We're used to it. Their purpose was the usual -- to prevent discussion of proposals in the legislature, and to interfere with representative government. Reekie is clearly in favour of such anti-democratic anarchism and violent attacks upon the congress.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +7Let us remember the Kirchnerist theft of nearly US$30 billion in private pension funds.
” On Oct. 21 [2008], Argentina's government, led by Peronist President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner and her predecessor, Néstor Kirchner, announced their intention to expropriate $30 billion held by Argentine citizens in private pension funds (similar to 401(k) retirement savings accounts). The Kirchners need the money to refinance old bad debts so that they can borrow yet more money to keep the country afloat. The announcement rocked investor confidence in Argentina and sent the Buenos Aires stock market plunging.”
Next question.
It resembles the Paris commune of 1871 and nothing has changed since that time
Dec 15th, 2017 - 03:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0just different country.
That's right Little J.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +7It gets even worse when you see the infamous and violent graffitti that these scumbags have spread all over downtown.
The Ks are using radicalized groups to cause chaos.
I don't agree with the proposed pension reform, but my right to disagree doesn't give me any special rights to invade congress or vandalize the neighborhood.
Enrique, from your safe haven up there in Calgary can't you recognise how out of touch you are? Same as that dinosaur 200 km South... Your darling K's are habitually spearheaded by violent thugs and vandals!
Dec 15th, 2017 - 04:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +3@EM
Dec 15th, 2017 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +4“Nothing is said about the unprecedented militarization of the surroundings of Congress to prevent mostly peaceful demonstrators from coming near the building.”......peaceful demonstrators ??? Reekie, go 'n see a doctor, you are senile...
Regarding your “previous” comments on the bolsa familia , in Brazil , you are right - it is a very ‘smart’ social welfare policy - used by the PT, to scare the poor into supporting the continuation of corruption, by voting in the same shit, year after year. If you consider its value, it’s easy to see why I say it’s just a ruse to make idiots believe the PT was doing all it could for the people…it’s definition by Wikipedia and reality are two different things…just because it says so, does not mean kids do go to school, or are vaccinated. Suppose you also believe in the 'big foot'...
So I ask, is there really no other way, sustainable in the long term, to lift people out of poverty ? how about teaching them a profession, giving them a decent healthcare system ? but no, it’s easier to throw them a few crumbs, guarantee their blind loyalty, while the politicians – present and PAST – carry on stealing. You are not seeing the Brazil its population does, and keep on swallowing all the wonderful fake news .
And if the claims of corruption in Brazil (by Lula and his cronies, by Temer and the PMDB, by 40% of Congress and most other politicians) weren’t true, why are executives then accepting plea bargains for ”crimes they did NOT commit” ?
I don’t like Temer’s corruption, but in this very specific case, what are the options ? kick him out, right after the fat cow’s impeachment, worsening the already existing crisis caused by her and Lula, and delaying economic recovery by a few more years (at the cost of mainly the poor) ? I’ll put up with him for as long as he is using his unpopularity to do what has to be done (the reforms), becos Congress knows the shit's going to hit the fan 'n does nothing.
Predictably, readers jumped as one to blindly support the version of facts of a government bent in making none other than the elderly pay for the giant fiscal deficit they are running.
Dec 15th, 2017 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Macri wanted his law passed no matter what, and accordingly, the security forces blocked demonstrators, who were by a large majority peaceful.
The government said, and some here have enthusiastically supported, the argument that the demonstrators were intent in entering the Congress building. There is not a hint of proof supporting such version of facts, fabricated to justify the unjustifiable, that is violence against people.
And please don't come here blaming the “Ks.” If something happened yesterday is the absolute equality to hit people from any political bent, including legislators, journalists, passers-by and even a homeless man.
The videos are available to anyone with intellectual honesty and a will to check all sources.
Besides the lethal repression of 2001, never before in democracy this widespread use of force happened in Argentina.
”If passed, President Mauricio Macri's reform will play an important part in cutting Argentina's fiscal deficit, with expected savings of 100 billion pesos (US$5.6 billion).“
Dec 15th, 2017 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse -3”Pena also denied that pensions are being reduced, and said “the five percent increase in real terms above inflation is guaranteed.””
They are going to save 100 billion pesos without reducing anyone's pension? Where will the money come from, then?
I saw the water cannon and police shooting at protesters in videos yesterday, and also cars on fire and people throwing things. Seems pretty irresponsible on both sides.
@TF
You generally support Macri, right? So why do you disagree with this reform?
Enrique Mascot
Dec 15th, 2017 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The “K's” robbed the working people of their private pension plans, then 're-distributed' the funds as so-called pensions for those who did not contribute.
Now, it is the pro-Union party that is orchestrating the violence, and using it as a pretext to suspend the vote.
You have no integrity and will repeat any untruth to support the populists and K's.
Love this shit show!
Dec 15th, 2017 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Molotov cocktails versus rubber bullets?
Hardly equivalent lethality.
Bad Macri!
How dare you try to make the gooberment functional on the backs of the entitlement class.
Lol.
Reekie - at least you have a little company to share your delusion.
Enrique,
Dec 16th, 2017 - 01:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am against this reform. I don't think this pension reform will do any good.
However you should be aware by now that some of the K and leftist lawmakers encouraged the protesters to provoke the forces. Mayra Mendoza, Axel Kiciloff, and many others wanted this to happen so they could cry “wolf”. These people don't care about the people. Their endgame is to cause another crisis like in 2001.
You may call them patriotic. I call them delinquents.
Tarquin
Dec 16th, 2017 - 03:14 am - Link - Report abuse -3“...some of the K and leftist lawmakers encouraged the protesters to provoke the forces.”
Come on. Provide at least something, anything backing such allegations.
And before you keep piling up ridiculous fabulations take a look at the following video. You will see a young woman picked up at random when she was coming home, four blocks away, from work. Absolutely disgusting. She is Damiana Barcellos, 25, and is obviously not dressed to attend a demonstration. A policeman gropes her before she is pulled away as she screams. She spent almost 24 hours in detention and is one of 45 arrested. Watch it--don't be afraid, Página 12 is not contagious.
https://www.pagina12.com.ar/83002-me-agarraron-me-golpearon-me-manosearon
The main picture here is actually very good (and without even having la potra in it!) because, as they say a picture tells a thousand words, and this one shows the real source of the violence - the Macri regime.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 12:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -7Tarquin - thanks for mentioning Mayra Mendoza, I hadn't heard of her before and she seems marvellous. Kirchnerism has promoted amazing women fighters and leaders I must say; I'm sure Cristina being such a brilliant role model will have helped
@Reekie,
Dec 16th, 2017 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +1And “predictably”, Reekie rushes to defend the protesters, as well as to believe that the deficit appeared overnight...when in truth, it's been accumulating for years. It's no surprise when people who have become accustomed to stealing and getting paid for doing nothing, suddenly have to tighten their belts....typical of socialists.
“The government said, and some here have enthusiastically supported, the argument that the demonstrators were intent in entering the Congress building. There is not a hint of proof supporting such version of facts....”
The fact that you piously believe that the 'peaceful demonstrators' had no intent on invading Congress, just shows how much you’re out of touch with reality....when mobs like that gather in front of a public building, their only thought is to get inside it and destroy as much as they can....after they start to throw barricades, bottles and stones against the police, and these retaliate, do those political agitators and idiots following them, complain about police violence.
I have seen far too many of these 'peaceful' protests turn into unwarranted violence and destruction of private and public property, and quite frankly I think the police are too soft on them...cracking their stupid skulls open might make them learn a lesson or two. You have obviously been away from S.America too long to remember what makes these mobs tick.
Regarding your link, the photo of the cop over the woman doesn’t prove anything other than he’s wrestled her to the ground…can you see him groping her ? didn’t think so…but if her allegations can be proved, then yes, agree he should be kicked off the force and do some jail time. The fact that several of the people arrested had no criminal record, is supposed to mean what ? that because up to that moment they had kept their nose clean, that they’d never resort to violence and other crimes ? there’s always a first time for every criminal.
JB
Dec 16th, 2017 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Who are you trying to kid? Are you so bent on denying what happened you pretend not seen a policeman groping the woman being arrested?
In fact, you very clearly express the hatred and fear the privileged feel towards the masses of unwashed when they take the street.
And of course, you are even claiming the police were too soft. From your cozy place, you are asking the cracking of heads.
You clearly show why deep social changes are needed.
At least the police protecting the congress aren't murdering any prosecutors....
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you leave the light on long enough, eventually ALL of the roaches will expose themselves in the mad dash for cover. If Macri had not been elected, Argentina would not have had the light turned on and all of this corruption in the pension fund would have remained obscured.
Dec 16th, 2017 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +1...Lol....Ohhh dear “ANOTHER” demonstration in Buenos Aries..??.(.Noooooo this just cannot be )......Jajaja........Just yesterday I watched an Argie propaganda talk show with some lying little rodent who...(along with claps and cheers from the rest of the unwashed idiots on this show)...Explained how he shot Lieutenant Colonel H Jones at Goose Green during the Falklands war.....Sadly it was total bullshit,....some thing that the Argentinian mongrels seem to need in order to survive... Seems as though the 'Peasants“ in Buenos Aires are getting restless again..Soooooo what to do..?....Just like so many times before the Argie Government invents a story that appeals to ”national pride“and hopes it will deflect all attention away from what seems to be making the peasants unhappy...As for the lying piece of shit who would claim to be some thing of a hero,along with his cheering...grinning..claping ...group of half educated morons ”For shame”.....NO true warrior would ever think of parading himself on a national TV talk show with a story that any half intelligent person knows is 100% bullshit... Ohhh and for the record....I cannot close without reminding these Argie monkies once again......YOU LOST......big time...what is it you dont understand......?
Dec 16th, 2017 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse -1El capitano 1
Dec 16th, 2017 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +1As a retired serviceman in HM Forces, I can tell you for sure that the Argie that said he shot Jones was lying as Jones would have been taken back to our lines before the Argies knew what was happening.They ( Argies ) were keeping their heads down and certainly were not advancing towards us,. Keeping their “ heads down ” being the operative words.
@EM
Dec 16th, 2017 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Where is the policeman groping a woman? I can't see it in that article either.
@JB
“It's no surprise when people who have become accustomed to stealing and getting paid for doing nothing, suddenly have to tighten their belts....typical of socialists.”
Surely you're not talking about the pensioners?
“I think the police are too soft on them...cracking their stupid skulls open might make them learn a lesson or two.”
No. Have you been in a protest? You can't get away easily if things turn violent. It would just lead to more innocent people getting hurt, and probably to more violence directed back at police. If you really want to end protests, you get the tanks out and use real bullets, like in the former communist countries.
@Chicureo
Uh, what corruption in the pension fund? The protests were about reforms.
DT
Dec 16th, 2017 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Kirchnerist theft of nearly US$30 billion in private pension funds as Marti earlier pointed out. One great legacy of the Pinochet government was the privatization of pension funds and granting full autonomy of the central bank here in Chile.
TWIMC...
Dec 16th, 2017 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -2The arrest of Damiana Negrín Barcellos is emblematic of the kind of Country..., Mr. Macri & Co. want to return to...
Just Google her name... and you will be able to see and hear her story..., including her telling about being groped by them pigs...
But of course..., the new generation of Argie “Por Algo Será” Turnips..., will close their ears..., close their eyes and close their minds..., reciting their old Mantra...: “Por Algo Será”...
Me dan pena...
@Chicureo
Dec 16th, 2017 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -1A nationalisation that was approved by both houses of congress, and reported on by newspapers around the world, would have remained obscured if Macri had not been elected?
Real corruption is when the owner of a company drains the pension scheme dry, giving all the money to his family members, and then sells off the company - and its liabilities - to a friend for £1, leaving all the people who paid into that scheme with nothing.
DemonTree
Dec 16th, 2017 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I actually agree that pensioners need to payed what they were promised, but the
earlier nationalization that was approved by a corrupt government is guilty of legalized wholesale robbery.
Argentina has had an unfortunate history of defaulting on what was promised:
”...Creditors (many of them private citizens in Spain, Italy, Germany, Japan, the United States, and other countries, who had invested their savings and retirement pensions in debt bonds) denounced the default...”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_debt_restructuring
TWIMC...
Dec 16th, 2017 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +1The attack against MP Mayra Mendoza..., is emblematic of the kind of Country..., Mr. Macri & Co. want to return to...
Just look at the linked picture..., and you will see a 50 kg. young female Argie Parlamentarian trying to enter her working place..., the Parliament..., solely armed with her very sharp feminine tongue...
You will also see not one, not two, not three, not four..., but eight (8) Robocops surrounding her and spraying a generous portion of Pepper Gas on her face...
http://www.perfil.com/orinoco-files/media/images/raw/2017/12/14/la-diputada-mayra-mendoza-sufrio-la-represion-frente-al-congreso.jpg
But of course..., the new generation of Argie “Por Algo Será” Turnips..., will close their ears..., close their eyes and close their minds..., reciting their old Mantra...: “Por Algo Será”...
@Chicureo
Dec 17th, 2017 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0I don't know the details of Argentina's pension arrangements, but it seems to me that when the 'cockroaches' are elected to congress and vote on policies they are merely guilty of bad governance, not of corruption.
If the people can elect a government that privatises the pension funds, they can also elect one that nationalises them.
But either way, it was hardly a secret that needed revealing. It's a pity there are so few Argentine posters here these days, then we'd know if it meant anything that not one has agreed with the proposed reforms so far.
TWIMC...
Dec 17th, 2017 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse -1The point blank shooting by Gendarmeria of a well known photographer from Pagina12 newspaper through18 years.., is emblematic of the kind of Country..., Mr. Macri & Co. want to return to...
Just look at the linked picture..., very dangerous camera he is carrying... A Sony 21 million pixels caliber...
http://www.fmlapatriada.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Pablo-Pirovano.jpg
But of course..., the new generation of Argie “Por Algo Será” Turnips..., will close their ears..., close their eyes and close their minds..., reciting their old Mantra...: “Por Algo Será”...
Me dan pena...
DT
Dec 17th, 2017 - 12:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0You could also then conclude that the elected governments of Venezuela and Brazil were “merely guilty of bad governance, not of corruption.”
TWIMC...
Dec 17th, 2017 - 01:09 am - Link - Report abuse -1MP. Horacio Pietragalla being sprayed Pepper Gas on his face by Gendarmeria for defending a homeless that was being detained because it is much easier to detain homeless people than rioters..., quite emblematic of the kind of Country..., Mr. Macri & Co. want to return to...
Just look at the linked picture..., one unarmed man against 20/30 Robocops...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdtbe9gVJI
But of course..., the new generation of Argie “Por Algo Será” Turnips..., will close their ears..., close their eyes and close their minds..., reciting their old Mantra...: “Por Algo Será”...
Me dan pena...
@Chicureo
Dec 17th, 2017 - 01:22 am - Link - Report abuse +1When Maduro declared the elected government had no power, it went well beyond both.
As for Brazil, I don't think their Congress managed to legalise corruption yet - but they are certainly trying.
You don't see a difference between acts openly carried out by the elected government - however cynical or misguided - and politicians secretly breaking laws and stealing?
For democracy to work we have to allow governments and leaders to use their best judgement and make mistakes sometimes. Only when they lie to the electorate or distort policy to directly benefit themselves can they be prosecuted.
TWIMC...
Dec 17th, 2017 - 01:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0I can see that some representants of the new generation of Argie “Por Algo Será” Turnips posting here..., are complaining about the bad manners of the opposition politicians in the Argie Parliament...
I took the trouble of checking some tape footage of the parlamentary session in question and I found just this little episode of physical violence between legislators...
The problem for them Argie Turnips is that the blow was thrown by the President of the Parliament..., Mr. Emilio Monzó..., from the governing PRO party...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MeAa8IwmZS4
But of course..., the new generation of Argie “Por Algo Será” Turnips..., will close their ears..., close their eyes and close their minds..., reciting their old Mantra...: “Por Algo Será”...
Me dan pena...
@Think
Dec 17th, 2017 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your government sucks. But you're not gonna get a big audience posting here. Why don't you go comment at Clarín or r/argentina?
DT
Dec 17th, 2017 - 02:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for the through civics lessons about democracy and piracy...
However, certain individuals of the Argentine elected government DID outrageously lie to the electorate AND grossly distorted policy to directly benefit themselves.
“Uh, what corruption in the pension fund? The protests were about reforms.” Riiiiight. If Tarquin says he did not think the “reform” would help matters, I'm inclined to agree with him, but...
Dec 17th, 2017 - 04:04 am - Link - Report abuse -1“Real corruption is when the owner of a company drains the pension scheme dry, giving all the money to his family members, and then sells off the company - and its liabilities - to a friend for £1, leaving all the people who paid into that scheme with nothing.”
No that's the crude form of corruption a criminal like yourself is more than familiar with. The Narcokleptocracy seized the pension funds and used them to fund “Public Works” projects that money was skimmed off of. But hey don't believe me, do your own research, K Shill... ;)
“The point blank shooting by Gendarmeria of a well known photographer from Pagina12 newspaper through18 years...”
A well known Narcokleptocrat, eh?
“Just look at the linked picture..., and you will see a 50 kg. young female Argie Parlamentarian trying to enter her working place..., the Parliament”
At the head of a Narcokleptocratic mob that had just burned 15 cars, eh?
“the blow was thrown by the President of the Parliament..., Mr. Emilio Monzó..., from the governing PRO party...”
Well, well, well, Gauchito Drink, the governing party is the PRO? You lying blackstabber, it's Cambiemos and you know it!
Once again we get the sort of tissue of lies we have come to expect from Kamerad/Komrade Rique and his accomplices Gauchito Drink and Delirium Tremens. I have no doubt that the work of the “quemacoches”strikes him as “High Art” (albeit ephemeral) and warms the cockles of his heart on yet another cold holiday season of exile in “Angloland” more than any cheery fireplace could do, but the reality is he is the same failed lying Kriminal he always has been...
DT
Dec 17th, 2017 - 04:40 am - Link - Report abuse -4Good logic about the nationalization of the pension funds, which had been privatized by Carlos Menem as part of a scorched-earth neoliberal program and became a source of profits for corporations while causing huge losses to the state and the retirees.
Of course, Pinochetists like Chicureo will always sing the praises of privatization of public services that serve a captive customer base to private interests in a golden plate.
To see the arrestation of Damiana Barcellos in the Pagina 12 article go past the first graphic (a photo) and down to the second graphic, which is the video in question. Watch it in a large screen as the video was taken from far.
While this is perhaps the most daunting example of the deeds of the police, journalists, legislators, retirees and many more were victims of a police gone crazy.
https://www.pagina12.com.ar/82920-la-chica-que-salia-de-trabajar-y-fue-detenida
@Chicureo
Dec 17th, 2017 - 10:40 am - Link - Report abuse -1I think it's rather some of the judges in Argentina who need civics lessons, judging by what I have seen of the Future Dollars case and now this AMIA treason prosecution. In the former there's been no evidence that CFK or her allies benefited (in fact most of the beneficiaries were Macri allies), and in the latter it's highly dubious whether Iran qualifies as an enemy, plus the director of Interpol totally denied that they were trying to remove the red alerts.
Did the government lie about the pension fund nationalisation?
@imoyaro
“If Tarquin says he did not think the “reform” would help matters, I'm inclined to agree with him”
Careful Imoyaro, if you agree with CFK about anything then some unreasonable poster might just decide you're a K Shill and a criminal. ;)
“Well, well, well, Gauchito Drink, the governing party is the PRO? You lying blackstabber, it's Cambiemos and you know it!”
First sentence of the Wikipedia article on Cambiemos:
”Cambiemos is an Argentine big tent political coalition created in 2015. It is composed of the Republican Proposal (PRO), the Radical Civic Union (UCR), and the Civic Coalition (CC).”
@EM
That was a different link to before and I can see the video now. It's pretty hard to make out what's happening though.
DT
Dec 17th, 2017 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +2You make two statements that all the roaches are cynically applauding in unison with approval:
-“there's been no evidence that CFK or her allies benefited”
-“it's highly dubious whether Iran qualifies as an enemy”
Congratulations!
If you can show me they aren't true then I won't say them again.
Dec 17th, 2017 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse -32014 - Reekie's people rioting during the CFK rein. Doesn't take much to get the rabble attacking the police and rampaging here. Pension reform is small potatoes among the infinite reasons to riot.
Dec 17th, 2017 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-wanDOmtnE
DemonTree
Dec 17th, 2017 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Like I said before, if you leave the light on long enough, eventually ALL of the cockroaches will expose themselves. If you really doubt the previous government involvement in wholesale corruption, you probably also doubt it's a cultural problem ingrained in Argentinian culture...
It's important no to lose sight that police violence is only one of the tactics the Macri government is using to approve a law that will reduce pensions by about one month's value in a year.
Dec 17th, 2017 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Monday the government goes for it again because the Peronist provincial governors will provide quorum and vote in favour of lowering the pensions. This is done after Macri blackmailed them with national transfers to provinces and because they are turncoats.
The usual story is being plaid: Macri reduced or cancelled taxes to the wealthy and powerful, and next he really “needs” to cut back to the elderly and also to the children, because the Universal Child Allocation will be reduced too.
A reversed Robin Hood.
“Monday the government goes for it again because the Peronist provincial governors will provide quorum and vote in favour of lowering the pensions. This is done after Macri blackmailed them with national transfers to provinces and because they are turncoats.”
Dec 17th, 2017 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -5This will only confirm and strengthen the principled stance of la potra mas bella
Argentina's main union federation, CGT, has announced a country-wide general strike starting Monday, Dec. 18, at noon. That is two hours before the Congress session to approve the anti-pension law starts at 2 p.m. About 40 unions are part of this measure.
Dec 17th, 2017 - 07:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Social organizations will cut access routes to Buenos Aires Monday, starting 8 a.m., and blockades will extend to provincial routes throughout the country.
Unless the government backtracks, this will be the second general strike Macri will be facing since taking office two years ago.
What's a stake here is the mechanism to keep pensions slightly ahead of inflation implemented by the previous Kirchnerist government. The Macri government interpreted its recent successful election results as a blank cheque to roll an all-out offensive on social conquests with sweeping fiscal, labour and pension reforms. It appears it won't be easy to achieve.
@Chicureo
Dec 17th, 2017 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -4There seems to be pretty good evidence of corruption against certain members of the previous administration. The two corruption cases against CFK appear plausible enough, but we'll have to wait for the trial and see what they've managed to uncover. It's the two cases I mentioned above that seem dodgy, not so much in terms of the evidence, but in whether either is a crime at all.
I do think it's a cultural problem in Argentina, and from what I hear, all over Latin America. However, Think believes CFK is innocent, so you could try asking him that question.
DemonTree
Dec 17th, 2017 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +2It's not whether criminal wholesale theft exists, but whether the people of Argentina will rise up with the righteous indignation necessary to tear out the corruptocrats from the government.
They haven't the last 100 years...
Dec 17th, 2017 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -3And Macri has his own scandals, so what choice do they have?
@EM
Dec 17th, 2017 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +4I’m not trying to kid anyone, the photo speaks for itself- can you see the cop’s arm and hand ? I can’t – they’re covered by his left leg, and he’d have to have pretty long arms to reach where you suggest he is. It’s your dirty mind at work.
I’m not expressing hatred, just the need to enforce the law…and your so-called masses of 'unwashed' are a bunch of rioters, led by professional agitators, with the sole intent to commit violent actions…and what’s my ‘cozy place’ got to do with it ? unless you want me to tell you that you support these rioters from YOUR ‘cozy place’ in Canada, where you have no idea what a violent protest is ?
But you’re right, deep social changes are needed, starting with throwing the K’s and their gang in jail. She’s partially responsible for the chaos but keeps her distance while she sends her followers to do her dirty work.
@DT
No, I’m not referring to the pensioners. I'm referring to people in previous Argy governments.
But now that you mention it, and coming back to Brazil's social security problem, the public pension system is responsible for the deficit, which is being financed by the private sector. While the public pensioners – and here I exclude the political class – are not to blame for the inequality between public and private pensions, they have no moral right to defend its continuity, in detriment of 95% of the pensioners (private sector).
Yes I have been to several protests, but neither I nor the groups who called the protests, resorted to violence or aggression, so those who do, imo, deserve what they get. 9 times out of 10, the police only intervene when the “peaceful” protesters (in Reekie’s opinion) start smashing private and public property, so the violence is usually the result of protesters' actions. When /if you see things getting out of hand, just about always caused by inflitrated agitators - trying to destroy the legitimacy of the protest - it's time to clear out.
@JB
Dec 17th, 2017 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -3“...your so-called masses of 'unwashed' are a bunch of rioters, led by professional agitators, with the sole intent to commit violent actions...”
Your allegation above is just that: an expression of your “law and order” position, which entails ”let the government (that I support) do as it pleases” as a result.
Reality is, on some occasions governments implement--or attempt to implement--measures that are resented by the population. Sometimes--not always--people react to those measures and go to the street.
Most people will want to demonstrate peacefully, because that gives an opportunity to the greatest number to march, bring signs, in a nutshell show what the protest is about.
Often though, small political parties will unleash violence. The police or intelligence services may also send agitators who will be identifiable to police to unleash violence and give an excuse to police to violently charge peaceful demonstrators. It requires a high level of organization for peaceful demonstrators to prevent this from happening.
If the security forces want to uproot violent groups using selective action, they can do it. If they want to use some violent actions as an excuse to charge on everyone--as they did on Friday--they can do it too.
Such was the violence, even notorious Cambiemos member Elisa Carrio called the repression excessive, and the government said it would withdraw Gendarmeria (which is supposed to cover the country's borders) from Buenos Aires and let the local police in place.
We will see whether tomorrow's general strike and demonstrations are allowed to go on peacefully.
JB
Dec 17th, 2017 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +4In his response, I see that EM has abandoned his attempt to misrepresent the policeman's actions on the video.
Fake News EM,
If you have to lie about events to make your distraction argument, it's a sure sign your point is not true.
Why do you blatantly lie when it is so easily disproved.
Lightning It is because he is Argentine, it is in their DNA to lie.
Dec 17th, 2017 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@EM
Dec 17th, 2017 - 10:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +3That‘s right Reekie, it’s called law enforcement. You can get your knickers in a twist if you want, but it won’t change the facts. Many times, the correct or necessary measures aren’t always popular, especially when a government decides to remove immoral benefits or kick out people in public service who sponge off those who do work (private sector). Your defense of what is morally indefensible gives me the impression you are a public servant in some menial job, where your brain is not required to function.
Sure, the “majority” of decent people who protest are not necessarily looking for trouble, but if those in BA were truly peaceful, they would not have acted the way they did. But it seems that you believe the police want them to riot so that they can retaliate…if that’s so, it must be because they know what kind of crap will be protesting, and just want a chance to give them a lesson..
In Brazil we have small groups who sometimes infiltrate peaceful protests, with the sole intention of deviating the protest from its true purpose…invariably, this ends in violence – sometimes the thousands of peaceful protesters beating the crap out of the few dozen hooligans before the police can - and the ones who later complain of police violence are those who started it in the first place.
If tomorrow, the ‘well-intentioned’ protesters keep the undesirables out, there should be no reason for the police to intervene. Let’s see.
@Lightning
People can interpret the photo anyway they want, but to claim there was a crime committed is pure speculation.
Chicuero: “whether the people of Argentina will rise up with the righteous indignation necessary to tear out the corruptocrats from the government”
Dec 17th, 2017 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -5I sure hope so. You do mean the current actual government, right ;)
@JB
Dec 17th, 2017 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Did you watch the video in EM's second link? He was talking about that, not the photograph, but it's still hard to see what's happening. And the woman accused the police of groping her, it's nothing EM came up with.
A few years ago we had a famous case in the UK; a man was walking home from work through a protest, and a policeman hit with his baton and pushed him to the ground. A few minutes later he had a heart attack and died.
It was surely just bad luck that it triggered a heart attack, but he wasn't doing anything violent, wasn't even part of the protest, and got attacked by the police. It often isn't those who deserve it who suffer when the police retaliate, do you think those rubber bullets only hit people who are violent? Do you reckon that cameraman in the photo was doing anything more than taking pictures? It's not always easy to get away when violence starts.
”especially when a government decides to remove immoral benefits or kick out people in public service who sponge off those who do work (private sector).”
The protest was about reforming the pension system, those pensioners are not sponging off anyone. If people object (and they do) why shouldn't they protest?
BK
Dec 17th, 2017 - 11:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0MY candidate Piñera won tonight with over 54% of the popular vote, so taunting me right now is ineffective.
He's by the way, one of the architects of our very successful privatized pension program that is untouchable by any government intervention.
(We painfully tore out many of corruptocrats from the government in 1973.)
Ahem: https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/165/29609.html
Dec 17th, 2017 - 11:45 pm - Link - Report abuse -2TWIMC...
Dec 18th, 2017 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse +1Not one..., not two..., but three male Anglo Turnips doubting the story of sweet innocent lass Damiana Negrín Barcellos being groped by the very same kind of pigs that..., under the dictatorship..., expertly“ massaged” young pregnant kidnapped women's bodies to make them deliver their babies quicker...'so they could enjoy the ultimate pleasure of killing them mothers in the most imaginative ways one can Think of...
But..., what does sweet innocent Damiana Negrín Barcellos tell us about that episode...? ...:
“They grabbed me..., they beated me..., they pushed me against a truck..., they groped me... ”
That's what she said
https://m.minutouno.com/notas/3053792-liberan-la-chica-que-fue-manoseada-un-gendarme-cuando-la-detuvieron
Ps...:
Damiana is now free and no charges whatsoever have been pressed against her...
@ Lightning
Dec 18th, 2017 - 12:40 am - Link - Report abuse -1“In his response, I see that EM has abandoned his attempt to misrepresent the policeman's actions on the video. Fake News EM.”
Look, Lightning:
I offered a link to the video. Now, if you cannot see a policeman sticking his hand on poor Damiana's derriere and moving it so that you can see her shirt moving, then there is nothing else I can do for you - you may be blind to police abuse - and on this you wouldn't be alone, unfortunately.
Think's mention of the sick sbirs performing their dirty job during the 1976-1983 dictatorship is pretty accurate and shows how those members of “security” forces are usually handed looting and raping rights to add to intimidation and fear and encourage their personal zeal.
All in the name of keeping the wealthy's velours gloves clean.
Wow, Gauchito Drink trying to pretend he cares about women. No poster has made more contemptuous posts about or to women in here. Not sure why he would bring up the story about his Fascist buddies, though. Here's a little holiday cheer to warm the cockles of Kamerad/Komrade Rique's heart...
Dec 18th, 2017 - 12:50 am - Link - Report abuse +1http://assets.bubblear.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/15124643/15-12-2017_buenos_aires_en_las_inmediaciones-653x444.jpg
Like the song goes, “Quemacoches setting cars on fire, cops and Krooks exchanging blows...”
DemonTree
Dec 18th, 2017 - 12:52 am - Link - Report abuse +1Oh it's a night of celebration. Piñera won with over 54% of the popular vote...
...and you bring up an old Pinochet scandal? ...please try with something more substantial next time please...
In the meantime, I go asleep knowing my government mandated private pension fund remains safe from plundering by corruptocrats.
“In the meantime, I go asleep knowing my government mandated private pension fund remains safe from plundering by corruptocrats.”... says a pensioned military man from Chile..., with a STATE pension that is extremeleleleleleelelelelelelelely generous......, to put it mildly...
Dec 18th, 2017 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse -1Ain't you being a tad hypocrit..., hermanito Shileno...?
Ah THINK
Dec 18th, 2017 - 01:40 am - Link - Report abuse +3The military pension and private pension plus medical care has left me indeed very fortunate, but I have seen the majority of my countrymen uplifted from poverty and lack of social services in the past 30 years. We still have a long way however to improve social care, but we're progressing.
Chile is progressing faster than Argentina.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 07:06 am - Link - Report abuse +2Could be due to Chile adhering to Democracy, versus the mob rule of Argentina.
Democracy = Pinochet 1973, mob rule = Cristina (who willingly, if not exactly with deep personal pleasure, made way for Macri when he was elected), is that what you mean?
Dec 18th, 2017 - 09:10 am - Link - Report abuse -3BK, she got beaten by the population of Argentina, so did not make way for Macri, there was nothing she could do but walk away. You said she “ willingly ” made way HaHa you make me laugh, more like she was taken away kicking and screaming because she lost power.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 10:26 am - Link - Report abuse +2The Brackish Kirchnerist doesn't seem to recognise that “Pinochet 1973” went the way of “Videla 1976” and that the military government in Chile made way for the present democratic government which appears to be a great deal less corrupt than that ever found in Argenzuela. Certainly less corrupt than any Peronist government.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse +1We noted that CFK did not attend the inauguration of Macri, preferring to pout instead in her room, the very picture of the 14-year-old.
@Chicureo
Dec 18th, 2017 - 11:12 am - Link - Report abuse -10Military pensions were not privatised then? Do you think they should be?
“I have seen the majority of my countrymen uplifted from poverty and lack of social services in the past 30 years.”
That's great, but hasn't Chile been ruled by left wing parties for the majority of that period?
@golfcronie & ML
The fact you are moaning about such trivial things as CFK pouting shows that democracy is working in Argentina. If it wasn't you'd be complaining about cancelled elections and Macri being jailed on trumped up charges and the soldiers in the streets.
Chile has a mix of government and private pension schemes. In my case about 20% of my retirement income is from my military service and 80% from a private fund. Chile has been governed by an diverse mix of left, right and center oriented parties since 1990. This morning both presidents are having a cordial breakfast at the president elect's home.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse +5And once again, Kamerad/Komrade Rique and Gauchito Drink's FascistoKommies will try to stage a “De La Rua,” hoping to drive Macri out of office, something Kamerad/Komrade Rique has mentioned he hoped for in the past. Naturally, private property of innocent people will be defaced and destroyed, not a problem for Kamerad/Rique as he doesn't believe in the concept of people having a right to their own property. I expect the Kriminals to be even more violent than the other day...
Dec 18th, 2017 - 03:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.thebubble.com/pension-reform-bill-round-two-congress-could-be-a-war-zone-today/
“Quemacoches setting cars on fire, cops and Krooks exchanging blows...” (sung to the tune of “The Christmas Song”)
Enrique,
Dec 18th, 2017 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +5What happened to that girl is horrendous. I don't believe anybody should condone that kind of actions against innocent civilians.
What can you tell me right now about those good patriotic boys throwing stones at the police? It doesn't qualify as just protesting to me.
You see, we must avoid double standards.
@DT
Dec 18th, 2017 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +2NOW yes. Ok, it wasn’t EM who invented the accusation of sexual assault, but he nevertheless jumped blindly onto the bandwagon. The video showing Damiana having her backside grabbed by a cop, really pisses me off. Hope the “Gendarmeria” will punish the cop, presuming he can be identified. Here, if you’re in the street and are not part of the protest, you can sure see it brewing - then it’s up to you - get the hell out or run the risk of being caught in the middle. Am not saying cops are above confusing innocents with vandals, but given the chaos, it’s understandable, and not all that frequent .
Funny, it’s always the cops’ fault when violence breaks out - it’s become the standard defense, blame the cops. In 2013, I went to one of the first protests on the Av. Paulista (SP’s financial centre), against corruption, the waste of public funds for the World Cup, and Dilma…it was a thundering success, over 1 million protesters, and no violence / vandalism. A couple of weeks later, the PT, PC do B & unions called for a protest against our protest…it attracted several thousand demonstrators, many from outlawed social movements (MST, MTST and others), but what was a surprise was the location chosen - not the Av. Paulista, but Av. Faria Lima, another main avenue 5 miles south, full of high end office buildings & car dealerships…shortly after the march started, people started smashing glass doors of the buildings and the windows of the dealership showrooms, destroying dozens of expensive cars…eventually police intervened to ‘control the excesses’, and beat up a few of the more enthusiastic vandals. Damage was calculated in the dozens of millions - and then police are violent ?
“…those pensioners are not sponging off anyone”. What I’m saying is that it starts with the politicians who vote themselves absurd privileges, and these usually end up being extended to other categories of public servants...that's why I say they sponge off others, the private sector.
We talk about the riots, etc., but overlook the key subject: The basis of the Argentine pension system is actuarially unsound. Governments can twiddle a figure here or there, but the very basis of the system is economically impossible. Add to that the thousands of people added for political purposes and those added by corruption and we have absolute guarantee of political fighting.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Just to give one detail: U.S. and most European government pensions are intended to pay retirees 32% to 40% of last salary. Here the promises to pay 82%! Roughly speaking, that requires that employees pay over 50% of their salaries all their working life to fund the system, ditto employers.
Sounds like the pension was cooked up by Kretina when she was pissed! Its no surprise that acolytes get favourable treatment, ol' turkey kneck buying votes once again. What a corrupt country!
Dec 18th, 2017 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +3These protesters seem a bit young to be pensioners to me! Are they really protesting pension reform or are they using this as an excuse to attempt to overthrow the government by force? If the latter, it is definitely NOT democratic.
Dec 18th, 2017 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I'd expect more people around Reekie's age if it was a legitimate protest against the pension reforms. ;-)
@ZB
Dec 18th, 2017 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Do you believe people only care about things that affect them directly? Even if you were right, young people have parents and grandparents, don't they? I saw some older people among the protesters, too.
@JB
“Ok, it wasn’t EM who invented the accusation of sexual assault, but he nevertheless jumped blindly onto the bandwagon.”
He watched the same video you just watched, and got angry just like you just got angry. Nothing blind about it. I hope they punish that cop too, not least to discourage others from doing the same in future.
And it isn't always the cops' fault when violence breaks out, but it's not always the protesters', either. For example, it's easy to see in the videos from Catalonia that people were just standing or sitting at polling stations and the police were trying to throw them out - violently. And it wasn't a few bad apples, that's what the Spanish government ordered them to do. Mostly it is (some of) the protesters who start the violence, but not every time, and the police need to respond proportionately and not start attacking innocent people.
Do you object to high pensions just because they are paid with government money, then? Probably most of the pensioners worked in the private sector, so it seems odd to talk about public servants here.
They are trying to drive Macri out of office like the Peronists did to De La Rua. I don't think they will succeed...
Dec 18th, 2017 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +3Someone explained to the rioters that under the new rules, in order to receive a pension, they will be expected to work a little bit during their lives. Hence the furious rejection.
Dec 19th, 2017 - 02:16 am - Link - Report abuse +6-- @viejopatiperro “ ...most European government pensions are intended to pay retirees 32% to 40% of last salary. Here the promises to pay 82%! ...”
CFK took her let's-bankrupt-the-country guidance from the Greeks.
After all, until the massive Greek default, Argentina held the record for the world's largest sovereign debt default.
DT,
Dec 19th, 2017 - 04:39 am - Link - Report abuse +4“Do you believe people only care about things that affect them directly?'
Some do, some don't, but I'd say that in general the ones that riot, destroy property and attack the police do not care about anyone else but themselves.
”I saw some older people among the protesters, too.”
Some were there early on but left when they saw what direction things were going.
I saw a pensioner crying because his business had been destroyed.
JB: ”In 2013, I went to one of the first protests on the Av. Paulista (SP’s financial centre), against corruption, the waste of public funds for the World Cup, and Dilma…it was a thundering success, over 1 million protesters, and no violence / vandalism”
Dec 19th, 2017 - 10:36 am - Link - Report abuse -9Don't you think if Lula and Dilma were as dictatorial as you say there would have been violence - from the police...
On this 82% pension thing, I think I saw a pro-Macri meme on facebook that said Cristina vetoed 82% in 2010, saying that the opposition was trying to bankrupt Argentina. Is that untrue, or are you lying now in saying she cooked up a bribe? You really can't have it both ways...
@DT
Dec 19th, 2017 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“OK, it wasn’t EM who invented…”; I’m referring to the photo when he backed up the accusation ; not the video, where abuse is evident. Quite frankly, if the cop is identified, the Police will probably invent some innocuous punishment for him, like to be grounded to desk duty for a month.
When I said “it’s not always the cops fault, this presumes that “sometimes it is”…different to “always is”. Each country has its own culture, with different limits as to what is tolerated… which is not an excuse for violence by the police, but it seems that it (police violence) is always taken for granted by the press…they have the power to spin events the way they see fit, depending on their political views/ who they sympathize with.
Yes, I’m against the high pensions of the political class (politicians, public prosecutors, ministers , judges) because they are paid with “taxpayer” money – there is no such thing as government money. First of all, the pensions are the same as their salaries ; second, the politicians etc are the ones who vote their own salaries/privileges – absolutely ridiculous, but the reason they are what they are ; third, the privileges/ benefits many times double their salaries/ pensions ; The private sector, which has the great majority of workers and pensioners, has to put up with very different, stricter rules…and the highest pension is less than 15% of the highest public pension. There are many other immoral aspects as well, but not enough space to list them all.
As I’ve said before, there are 29 times more private pensioners than public ones, however, the latter keep 77 % of the social security cake…that's why the minority protests, to keep their immoral benefits ; and the public sector is responsible for the enormous deficit in the social security system. Still think I’m wrong to get pissed-off ?
@BK
Never said Lula /Dilma were dictatorial; although they would love to have been (and still want to be), the institutions prevented that.
EM
Dec 19th, 2017 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +7Monday,
Associated Press:
“Some retirees who were protesting the measure were caught up in the middle of the violence when some demonstrators hurled rocks and gasoline bombs, and riot police responded with tear gas and rubber bullets”
EM,
What 'peaceful' protesters show up to a rally with gasoline bombs?
That's ok, it's a rhetorical question.
we know it is Kirchnerists.
Marti,
Dec 19th, 2017 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +4“After all, until the massive Greek default, Argentina held the record for the world's largest sovereign debt default.”
They ruined it for us. We had at least a period in which we were the best at something.
Darn Greeks!!!
Crawler on the tele right now: 88 police injured by reekie's little criminal friends, who for a time had also cut off the accesses to Bs As.
Dec 19th, 2017 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse +2162 injured, considering both sides.
EM supports this kind of mob rule by violent Kirchnerists inciting riot, random property destruction and personal injury, in opposition to the democratically elected government representing the majority.
Dec 19th, 2017 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +2EM + BK = anti-Democracy
Reekie,
Dec 19th, 2017 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +5“It's important no to lose sight that police violence is only one of the tactics the Macri government is using to approve a law that will reduce pensions by about one month's value in a year.”
I'm a bit late responding to this, but I believe that everything that you have typed here is incorrect.
Firstly, it is clear that it is the Ks that are using violence for (non-democratic) political reasons. When they were debating the plan the government listened politely while the Peronists spoke, but when the government spoke and tried to explain the plan they were shouted down by the opposition. The Peronists were also trying to stop the debate because of the violence outside, which they themselves had initiated! The police were under orders not to respond and took many injuries. So to claim that Macri was using police violence is not true.
Secondly, you claim that the Macri plan would be to reduce pensions. If I understand correctly, the proposed plan is to provide a raise of inflation + 5% every 3 months. CFK was providing a bigger increase each month BUT was printing money to pay for it. So it seemed like you were getting more but the value of what you were getting was falling at pretty much the same rate. Would you prefer a 5% increase over inflation in money that has some value or a 10% increase with money that reduces the value of all of your money by a corresponding amount? Do you remember the blue peso because CFK was lying about the true value of the peso? When Macri allowed the peso to float is “collapsed” to very close to the blue rate. The truth is, it had already collapsed as the blue rate indicated. Macri stopped the pretence.
It seems like Macri is offering a very good deal by Western standards while CFK was simply throwing paper at the people. You would prefer to keep up the pretence and be paid in Monopoly money.
@ZB
Dec 19th, 2017 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse -6Probably. There seemed to be a lot more violence than last week, I don't blame any pensioners for going home early. I also saw a guy crying because his shop window was smashed and I think they stole stuff. There's no need for all that violence and it must be counterproductive to their aims.
As I understand it, the pension rises have been lagging behind inflation and they would be due to rise a lot this year and next. By changing the formula Macri ties them to future inflation instead which is projected to be lower, meaning he never has to account for this year's and last year's high inflation. If it wasn't a cut in real terms then it wouldn't help him reduce the deficit.
@JB
If you read EM's original comment he says 'take a look at the following video' and describes what happened in it, so I guess he just pasted in the wrong link. Not your fault you couldn't see it but it's clear he was talking about the video.
“they have the power to spin events the way they see fit, depending on their political views/ who they sympathize with.”
That's true, but it works both ways. Most of the press is more sympathetic to Macri, which is perhaps why you had to go to Pagina12 to see that video rather than to Clarin.
“Still think I’m wrong to get pissed-off ?”
No, but this isn't the Brazilian system they are trying to reform. I doubt the public sector workers in Argentina have quite such generous benefits, and anyway the reform is changing the way all pensions are calculated, for those who worked in the private sector as well as the public. They are linking them to inflation instead of pay rises and tax receipts in order to pay pensioners less and save money over the next few years. I guess if you lived in Argentina you would also be affected.
Marti
Dec 19th, 2017 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +4I lived in Greece in the 80's and they ( the Greeks ) used to brag that they never paid tax, in fact the company I worked for paid for my villa straight to the owner in cash.
DT,
Dec 20th, 2017 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse +6“There seemed to be a lot more violence than last week, I don't blame any pensioners for going home early. I also saw a guy crying because his shop window was smashed and I think they stole stuff. There's no need for all that violence and it must be counterproductive to their aims.”
Indeed. They attacked a journalist who was just doing his job and threw ashes in his face burning his mouth and he is now in intensive care with spinal and other injuries. He is 71 years old. They also destroyed two 150 year old marble fountains that had been recently restored at great expense in order to obtain projectiles to throw at the police. These are the people that Reekie supports.
“They attacked a journalist who was just doing his job and threw ashes in his face burning his mouth and he is now in intensive care with spinal and other injuries. He is 71 years old. They also destroyed two 150 year old marble fountains that had been recently restored at great expense in order to obtain projectiles to throw at the police.
Dec 20th, 2017 - 04:25 am - Link - Report abuse +5These are the people that Reekie supports.”
EM the 'humanist'.
Disgraceful hypocrisy
I think it's pretty clear the police were not responsible for the violence this time. People have a right to demonstrate but using violence, injuring people and destroying property is not acceptable.
Dec 20th, 2017 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse -4However, I'll wait for Enrique to tell us himself whether he supports their actions.
DT,
Dec 20th, 2017 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“I think it's pretty clear the police were not responsible for the violence this time. People have a right to demonstrate but using violence, injuring people and destroying property is not acceptable.”
Absolutely.
“However, I'll wait for Enrique to tell us himself whether he supports their actions.”
In another thread he clearly believes that “governments need to resort to violence if the electors happen to protest.” implying that he thinks the government started it.
I think Macri's order to the police to use minimum force allowed the world to see who the true instigators of the violence were but sadly resulted in more damage and more police injuries than might have happened otherwise. He knew that Reekie and his ilk would spin any police violence (justifiable or not) into exactly the sort of claim of state-sponsored repression that Reekie repeats here.
As Macri said, the violence was clearly organised and investigations are ongoing to determine who was responsible for this. What are the chances that the trail leads back to CFK or her cronies?
@DT
Dec 20th, 2017 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Ok, EM confused things. Won’t crucify him any further because of it.
I am not familiar with the pension system in Argentina, but I would suspect that the way the rules were put together over the decades, were done so in such a way to favour public servants over those of the private sector etc…it’s what Latin American politicians do…they legislate in their own favour, and to gain support of other categories of public servants, they allow the privileges to filter down. They form a kind of mafia, which will do anything to defend the rights & privileges it has consolidated over the years - through manipulation of the law – something the private sector doesn’t have the power to do.…exactly the same as in Brazil, given the due proportions.
Just imagine if all private sector workers had the same benefits as the public sector …would be great, but where would the money come from to pay the absurdly high pensions of the ‘elite’ in public service ? Currently, it’s coming from the private sector contributions. OK, I’m still really basing my argument on the system in Brazil, but don’t think that the structure, and the problems in Argentina are all that different.
The origins of most of the reports (by the press) of that type of incident (protests peaceful or violent) are quite easily identified, due to their political leaning, and it comes down to the individual, as I’ve said before, to take this into account and check more than one source. Some things the left-wing press would omit, are made a meal of by the other extreme…and vice versa. But the rioting after the announcement that the reform had been approved, seemed pretty well orchestrated….didn’t look like a few peaceful protesters reacting to police brutality...masked individuals, who most likely aren’t even retired, throwing stones. The chances are that Macri is trying to make the system fairer for all workers, and if this means reducing public sector benefits , so be it.
@ZB
Dec 20th, 2017 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Evidently he believes the police are usually to blame, but that's not the same as supporting violence.
It's a shame the protests didn't stay peaceful, but it's right to start with minimum force and step up the policing only if required. I think they would have been more effective without the violence too.
“What are the chances that the trail leads back to CFK or her cronies?”
That it leads to some organisation like Quebracho is high, that it leads to CFK herself very low.
@JB
Thank you.
I'm not familiar with Argentina's pension system either, and it's a bit pointless us discussing it without that knowledge.
Like I said above, there seemed to be a lot more violence from the protesters compared to Thursday, and the police response didn't seem disproportionate this time. But that's a separate issue to whether the reform is a good thing. From what I read it's not about making the system fairer but about saving money, and neither the old rules nor the new ones appear obviously unfair, the new ones are just less generous/more stingy.
@DT
Dec 21st, 2017 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0it's passed the point of discussing whether the reform is this, or the next....any system which causes enormous deficits has to be reorganized, to try to make it self-sufficient. Otherwise, its imbalance just inflicts hardship on the majority of the pensioners, regardless of whether private or public sector...not to mention the population as a whole..
If it’s about saving money, I’d say that it’s because accounts aren’t closing….so either fix the problem or raise taxes....there is no “popular” solution.
By what I read, seems the government proposal does not include structural changes, but rather in the way the increases in pensions are calculated, due to the high inflation.
Under CFK, looks like the calculation took into account the increase of revenue in the system, price variations (where manipulation of official inflation can occur, to reduce it), and was readjusted twice a year. Macri’s proposal apparently alters the formula in that it defines the increase (of pensions) in accordance with the formal increase of salaries, plus inflation, with quarterly adjustments. The problem is that this new formula represents, at least initially, a loss for pensioners, but should 'eventually' even out, in a self-sustainable system. Time will tell if the 'sacrifice' will pay off..
More popcorn please!
Dec 21st, 2017 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -4What I've learned from this discussion thus far:
Internet lefties are generally still deluded idiots.
Alt rights are still blind to their leaders' faults.
Is their an rg speak equivalent for the term statesman?
@JB
Dec 22nd, 2017 - 01:18 am - Link - Report abuse +1That sounds like a fair summary of the reforms, and you can see it's different to the situation in Brazil. As I said in the other comment, Macri cut taxes (and is planning to cut them further), so he created the problem he's trying to solve, and many people in Argentina think that pensioners should not be the ones paying for those tax cuts.
Time will tell whether his reforms get the economy going again.
@DT
Dec 22nd, 2017 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Provided the pension system in Argentina is fairer than that in Brazil, in that it does not favour public servants in detriment of those in the private sector, i.e., does not need correcting, agree that there are other areas where expenditure cuts would cause less distress.
Cont. of previous exchange :
“If a large percentage of the population ends up unemployed/with no prospect of work”, this means salary mass would be reduced significantly, as so would contributions to the system 'n tax collection; if no one can buy the goods produced by the few, still employed, money becomes worthless, so the whole system would just implode. For an economy to work, as we know it today, it requires capital, labor, salaries, and a relative value of what's produced. The idea that a government, without revenue, can distribute money to the unemployed, isn't going to work. If no one is earning a salary, might as well go back to the barter system, which means that those who have nothing to exchange, either work for someone else, or starve…sounds like how the current economic system started. And the contrasts will appear all over again, as some were born to lead, others to follow…just human nature, not to mention the predatory action of the political class, and those getting into bed with them, for personal gain.
That the whole world – with a few isolated exceptions, due to very specific circumstances - is becoming more miserable, is quite clear, and unless the problem is attacked head on - which we know it won’t be – things will get worse.
Not surprising that the private sector in the UK paid better salaries....probably because it attracted better qualified, more intelligent, and more ambitious people, where ‘the sky is the limit’ ?
But neither is it surprising that public sector managed to wangle better pensions for itself (no doubt with a little help from the politicians?).... (similar to Brazil, where taken to extremes)
“That the whole world – with a few isolated exceptions, due to very specific circumstances - is becoming more miserable, is quite clear”
Dec 22nd, 2017 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Under the Thatcherite neoliberal model that you are probably (despite tough competition) the biggest evangelist for on these boards, go figure. Of course Cristina and her comrades did represent an attempt to “attack the problem head on”
Apparently the brackish kirchnerist considers KK institutionalised theft and world-class corruption to be “attacking the problem head on.”
Dec 22nd, 2017 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“so the whole system would just implode”
Dec 23rd, 2017 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Exactly, which is why if it really does happen we'll have to think outside the box. Money doesn't have any inherent worth, what's valuable is what is produced, whether that is by humans or robots. So in theory if robots can produce as much as we need without (much) human intervention, most people don't need to work. In practice though, having a massive underclass living in poverty and with little hope of ever getting a job and bettering themselves seems a more likely outcome.
Do you really think the whole world is getting more miserable? I'd have said things have greatly improved in places like China, and in Brazil until a few years ago too. In Europe, maybe problems have been growing recently, and I don't think Brexit will improve matters. I think it is fixable, but whether it will be or not is a different question.
I don't know if some were born to lead, but I do know that you can't have leaders if there are no followers. Even if we had a perfectly egalitarian society where anyone had the chance to rise to the top, it's obvious that not everyone can.
Anyway, salaries vs people is more the opposite way around in the UK. Unlike Brazil, the private sector pays much better, and the public sector struggled to attract decent people. So instead of offering them more money now, the government decided to offer more money in the future in the form of high pensions, leaving the bill for later generations to pay (and when the original politicians are retired and don't have to worry about it).
@DT
Dec 23rd, 2017 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If 'money' exists or not, some type of currency with an inherent value is alwys going to be necry. Even if labor (robots) is cheap, it’s not free; neither is raw material being transformed. You say “most people” won’t need to work, which implies some will. Who gets to decide who slouches on the couch and who doesn’t ? Your concept virtually equalizes everyone, in that they'll receive only what they need for reasonable survival, there won’t be the accumulation of ‘currency’, nor people differentiating themselves from the rest. Can see where you’re trying to go with this, but there are too many ‘unexplained’ obstacles in the way, IMO....instead of your utopia, a 'massive and increasing underclass living in poverty' is the more likely outcome.
While certain things in China have improved, such as access to what to technology can provide, it's still only accessible to relatively few. Hundreds of millions are still stuck in a rut, with no short term prospect of improvement. In Brazil, the last 3 years of Dilma’s reign saw millions slip back into poverty - as already mentioned - so yes, generally speaking I think the world's gone backwards. I‘d think that you, with your more socialistic approach would see this…the poor are becoming poorer while the rich, richer….and the gap is only widening. Just look at the all the places on the globe where chaos prevails, either the result of war, hunger, or from natural causes. Regardless of what people are destined (at birth) to become, the fact is that in time, leaders and followers trail different paths. 'Some born to lead, others to follow', is just a figure of speech - as you yourself say, not all have what it takes to rise to the top…and when you get people who are natural followers, trying to invert the roles, you end up with types like Maduro.
Here, with the exception of politicians 'n highest public jobs (obviously !), the “private” sector pays better salaries….but public pensions are relatively better (obviously !)
Marti I don't support “institutionalised theft and world-class corruption”, I believe these to be false allegations as far as Cristina is concerned; I support her because I think she's innocent not because I think she's guilty, as should be obvious. If I'm wrong then ideally that would be proven in a fair and unbiased judicial process, but there's little chance of that happening right now with Macri's politicised purge. More likely, and more desired by the government, is a massive miscarriage of justice against an innocent woman who tried to tackle the neoliberal causes of mass unhappiness.
Dec 24th, 2017 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse -1DT/JB Surely we must all be against the creation of that 'massive and increasing underclass living in poverty' and if the robots mean that there's significantly less work to go around than 40 hours a week for anyone who doesn't want to slouch on the couch, then we have to get over ourselves and reduce the working week as happened many times in the last century. Unless we're actually fine about a huge underclass as a price worth paying for keeping the Thatcherite model where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Btw how would you define Cristina JB, surely she's a natural leader not a natural follower ;)
BK
Dec 24th, 2017 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure, I'd classify CFK as a natural leader....but she put her talent into becoming wealthy, while preaching all she was doing was to help the people....when people who have leader quality, put it to bad use, that's when the people pay the price. I know you believe just the opposite, that CFK is honest, innocent of all charges, yet all you have to do is compare the K assets when the 'clan' entered politics , and now....no salary and/or benefits, no matter how large, can justify increasing one's wealth the way that Latin-American politicians do...or are they all financial wizards ?
While we're on the subject, look at Lula....entered the presidency with one flat (value declared in his Income Tax return, US$ 100,000)....after 8 years of presidential salary and benefits, around R$ 50,000 / month, plus return on investment within that period, you come to less than R$ 10 million....how does one explain the hundreds of millions that he, and his 'wizard' sons, accumulated over the 12 years of PT reign, considering that one of his wizard sons , in 2005, was the guy who cleaned out the poop in the chimp's cage, in the local zoo ?
”DT/JB Surely we must all be against the creation of that 'massive and increasing underclass living in poverty'.....Agree 100%, but playing Robin Hood, plain and simple, ain't the answer ; Reforms to cut wasteful government expenses, elimination of corruption,
and educating the people so that they aren't pulled around by the nose, would be a good start towards reducing the influence of bad politicians.
JB
Dec 24th, 2017 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great posts.
Yes, a huge underclass of subsistence workers and a few ultra-wealthy.
The USA, whilst demonising Socialism, is perpetuating a growing disparity of income.
Hardly the successful Keynsian model of successful Capitalism, where workers are paid well and are a supportive base of Consumers.
Many consumers with disposable incomes means producing products with an economy of scale that keeps everything affordable and a dignity of living for a larger number of individuals.
There is still room for an entrepreneurial class that will have a readily available educated and skilled workforce.
We are going the opposite way today.
DT
China:
Workers there today, are landless and literally wharehoused in worker barracks, in many cases there is a strict policy of non-fraternising between workers of the opposite sex.
There is systemic corruption, landless workers living hand to mouth, are utterly dependent on their employers and their immediate supervisors, threatened with dismissal.
Meanwhile whole, model cities are constructed as showpieces, with nobody to live in them.
Hardly a Communist ideal, nor a Capitalist success.
Regardless, China is trammeling the resource industries of the world, putting locals out of work or rendering them ineligible, whilst these new wealthy buy up the choice properties the locals can no longer afford.
Do you still feel this is an improvement?
I wish that were the trend, but I don't believe it is.
“Surely we must all be against the creation of that 'massive and increasing underclass living in poverty'”
Dec 24th, 2017 - 06:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Of course, though it already exists in Brazil. But weren't we already supposed to be doing 3 day weeks by now, due to lack of work? That is never what happens, instead you end up with some people doing long hours, and some unemployed sitting on the couch, or resorting to crime, or in the US addicted to opiate painkillers. The problem with the future economy is that unskilled jobs are disappearing. Jack, you asked 'who gets to decide who slouches on the couch and who doesn’t?' The only jobs would be controlling the robots and inventing things, and few people would be qualified. Then there would be a few things that can't be mechanised, but most people wouldn't have the skills.
Raw material would still cost money, which is why I suggested the government tax that. It makes more sense than taxing work anyway, since work produces value but the raw materials were not created by anyone, they are just there and really belong to all of us. It would be fairer to tax the land holding the mine rather than the work done extracting the ore and smelting it etc.
Maybe I agree with you about Maduro... I think it's caused by leaders picking their successor and choosing someone they can easily influence rather than a good leader who would inevitably have their own ideas. That's not how it's supposed to work in a democracy.
@BK
“If I'm wrong then ideally that would be proven in a fair and unbiased judicial process.”
Agreed. I don't know if CFK is guilty of anything, but no one can argue with this.
@Lightning
All that can be true and the majority still be better off, and feel themselves better off, than under communism when famine and state persecution were commonplace.
My own observations are that Chinese tourists are now vastly more common, and companies are interested in selling to the Chinese market where they weren't before. Evidently some people there have money.
DT
Dec 24th, 2017 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“...obviously some.... have money”
Obviously.
Let's put it into perspective.
China has a population close to 1.5 billion.
https://www.google.ca/search?ei=IvM_WvmEPOTS0gKil5ToDw&sjs=16383&q=china+population&oq=China+population&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.0.0l5.4777.13598..17737.......721.2724.15j1j5-1j1............mobile-gws-wiz-serp.....3..41j0i131.wqMf60uGIgE%3D
If 100 million or only 7% of the population can afford to travel and spend, that is still more than the entire population of the UK!
It is 1/5 the population of the EU, nearly 1/3 the population of the USA, but ALL able to travel and spend.
Unlike our populations.
A major influence on world markets. No wonder they are catered to, but they are hardly representative of the majority 93% of mainland Chinese.
I would say they are very visible and influential, but still a small minority.
This does not factor in the spending and controlling strategies and tactics of the Chinese government bankrolling Chinese business and individuals.
JB: ”one of his (Lula's) wizard sons , in 2005, was the guy who cleaned out the poop in the chimp's cage, in the local zoo ?”
Dec 24th, 2017 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Stories like this, the President's son a zookeeper (Ken Livingstone's original first choice of job as it happens), or Cristina's mum and family still living in a working class district that was flooded a few years back, are very revealing of the (honest and unselfish) kind of people who led the left in a culture that yes, in the main, was and is very corrupt, and they actually cut against the allegations of vast personal corruption against the likes of Lula and Cristina
@Lightning
Dec 24th, 2017 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Yr analysis of the Chinese, the 7 v. 93%, absolutely correct.
@DT
The lack of work, below acceptable levels, or mass unemployment, is a man-made crisis. If there's a world trend, showing consistently that relatively unskilled workers are becoming dispensable, then ok, reducing work hours/ taking on more employees to fill in / to spread income could make sense, and again, only in activities where not much brain-power is required. Seems you believe in a utopian society where only a few work – controlling robots – and the rest, lie back ‘n do nothing. And once again, the UK is not Brazil. Different mentality, different stage of social development.
Re yr “raw materials were not created by anyone, they are just there and really belong to all of us”, not very accurate : even raw materials need to be extracted or dug out of the earth, and transformed before they enter the production process…nothing is for free.
“It would be fairer to tax the land holding the mine rather…”…how come ? who owns the land, in yr utopia ? the state ? does it tax itself ? You can only tax the production of riches, or the accumulation of it, but if most don’t work, who’ll pay taxes ? your theory still needs a lot more ironing out the kinks.
“I don't know if CFK is guilty of anything, but no one can argue with this.”…entered politics middle-class, left a millionaire…I think there’s plenty to argue about.….
Re Maduro, his regime has no resemblance to democracy…comes down to using power to get the wrong people into the wrong places. And leaders should NOT pick their successors…the people should.
@BK
“Stories like this...”, not just any story. But a story of how the extended’ family – 100% of it , not just a few – all became millionaires shortly after Lula became president….even his siblings who no longer worked. But of course, NO reason to suspect malfeasance.
LatAm politicians usually enter politics poor, but leave millionaires…must all be uncomprehended geniuses.
Even 7% of the population doing well is better than none. Sure conditions don't compare to Europe, but they were starting from such a low baseline that I think most Chinese would say they are better off now.
Dec 24th, 2017 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“Seems you believe in a utopian society where only a few work – controlling robots – and the rest, lie back ‘n do nothing.”
No. I said back at the beginning that I don't think it's a good idea. Lying around on the sofa might be nice for a while but it doesn't make you happy in the long run. We need to have a reason to get up in the morning and to achieve things, plus it's just wasteful to have a bunch of people sitting around doing nothing. What I'm hoping is that new jobs will appear as the old ones vanish, and we'll find something productive for all those people to do.
As for the land, if the government owns it they just charge rent to whoever does the mining instead of taxing them. But to make it work they should really charge a fixed amount, not based on how much is extracted, so the companies still have an incentive to be more efficient. That might be difficult.
And Maduro's regime isn't democratic now, but he was originally elected democratically. One of the strengths of democracy is supposed to be avoiding this situation, because it's not unusual to have a king or dictator who is a good leader, but it's pretty rare for them to have a good successor due to the nature of their power.
What I'm questioning (and it is a question, I don't claim special knowledge just a snout for details that don't stack up) is whether this zoo keeper son has actually become a millionaire at all, or if he's still living an ordinary life...like Cristina's mother in her working class house. Another example closer to home would be Harold Wilson's son becoming a train driver - Tony Blair's disdain for that and boasting his own children wouldn't go the same way said a lot about how un-Labour he was.
Dec 24th, 2017 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Commenting for this story is now closed.
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